TONTS. - Matrescence Festival with Dr Melanie Jackson

Episode Date: September 14, 2025

Welcome to second episode of TONTS. Season 5 Matrescence Festival edition, join us as we look back through our Melbourne festival from March 2025.In this episode you'll hear from our speaker Dr Melanie Jackson, a private midwife providing homebirth services since 2009. In 2015 she completed her PhD, called "Birth Outside the System." This work sprouted academic publications and has also allowed her to work as a researcher and midwifery lecturer at Western Sydney university, as a peer reviewer for academic journals and as a project officer at the Australian College of Midwives and motivates the work she now does on her social media and youtube channels. Melanie also hosts The Great Birth Rebellion which aims to dismantle western beliefs and management of birth and presents an evidence-based alternative to modern birth practices. Melanie believes that calculated rebellion against medicalised maternity care is the evidence-based and preferred path to having a great birth. Find more from Dr Jackson on their website: https://www.melaniethemidwife.com/For more from Claire you can head to: https://www.clairetonti.com/ or her instagram @clairetontiFor more from Lizzy you can head to: https://www.lizzyhumber.com/ or her instagram @lizzyhumberAnd to keep up to date with past and upcoming Matrescence festivals you can follow @matrescencefestival on instagram or go to https://www.clairetonti.com/matrescence-festivalOriginal theme music: Free by Claire TontiEditing: Maisie JGSocial Media: Surabhi Pradhan Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which I create, speak and write today. There are wondry people of the Kulin Nation and pay my respect to their elders past, present and merging, acknowledging that the sovereignty of this land has never been seeded. I want to acknowledge the people who have given birth on this land, raised children on this land for generations, connected to country and spirit. Hello, welcome to a special edition of Tontz. In this season, I will be sharing with you live podcast episodes from the Metrescent's Festival Australia that took place across two days in March 2025.

My name is Claire Tonti. And I'm Lizzie Humber and together we are the co-founders of Metrescent's Festival. In episode one, you heard from Amy Taylor Cabaz and the midwife and poet Vicky Chan sharing her gorgeous poem, Birthfire. And in today's episode, we're going to hear from Dr. Melanie Jackson, who is a midwife and host of the Great Birth Rebellion podcast. Melanie has a PhD in midwifery and years of experience supporting and mentoring midwives. She is passionate about helping women understand and apply the research surrounding matressants, the process of becoming a mother.

In her podcast, she shares invaluable knowledge, challenging conventional norms and empowering mothers. She has worked in multiple research roles, lectured at Western Sydney University, and has been providing home births in the Blue Mountains since 2009. Through her mentorship and work with the Assembly of Rebellis Midwives, Mel supports Midwives worldwide in creating safe and empowering birth experiences. All right, without further ado, here she is, Dr. Melanie Jackson. Thanks for having me and thanks for being here.

I recognize some faces, but yes, the Great Birth Rebellion is you might recognize my voice and think, who is that person? That sometimes people are like, I just heard you kind of. coming. So anyway, I'm going to talk to you today. The topic is rebellious midwifery, but it's actually more than that. It's not just encouraging any midwives in the room to be rebellious. But I want to help all of you in the room to understand that there are elements. There's a lot that you can control over what happens to you. What I feel like sometimes happens is that women feel victim to the system. They feel victim to motherhood.

and that things are changing around them that they have no control over. So I actually have three things, there's way more, but three main things that I believe women have control over that they can use to curate a positive transformation. So there's a lot of talk at the moment about birth trauma and how do we, I just feel like the conversation ends at, wow, women are really becoming traumatized by their motherhood journey and their birth journeys. But there's another option. And the other option is actually to thrive after you have your baby.

Motherhood doesn't have to break us. It can actually make us. And we know that during our pregnancy, birth and postpartum, our brain actually changes, it physically changes. They can see it on scans, they can see that our brains change through our pregnancy, through our birth, our birth actually changes our brain to make us into capable mothers. And so we need to nurture that journey, acknowledging that our bodies and our brains are changing to prepare us for the transformation that's occurring. It's this gradual transformation that occurs. the pregnancy, birth and postpartum is not a disconnected process. It's all connected and it all impacts each other. And so I guess my first point is that you are in a huge transformation when you're

having a baby. You will always be transformed by being pregnant and having a baby and caring for a child. There's no other option. You will not be the same. You will always be postpartum. Your body will always be postpartum, you will never get any of the pre-stuff back as it was. So if we go into parenthood and motherhood, realizing I'm going to be a different person and that's okay and I can have some control over what happens to me afterwards and during. And so I am still a clinical midwife, a private midwife, and I've been doing that for 16 years. And it's usually around day two post-partum where women kind of look at me and go, what is going on?

What has happened to me? I can't do anything. Like, I can't do anything that I used to do. So here's how I described to them what's just happened. I call it the dropped ball analogy. So if you imagine yourself prior to being pregnant and having a baby, you're just juggling all these balls, you know, to some, you know, capacity.

Some people have got heaps and heaps of balls and other people look at them going, oh my gosh, how are they juggling so many balls? Some have just got a couple. They're like, that's my capacity. I can do a couple of balls. But you're doing it, right? There's a flow to your life. You might be doing it with another person.

You might have a partner or friends, you know, that are all juggling balls that keep your world going. You're doing what you need to do. When you have a baby, let's just assume, now you're holding this. one big ball, which is the baby, all the rest have just fallen to the ground. And you're looking at them. You can see your life down there in a series of balls that are no longer being managed, no longer being juggled. And some of them are rolling so far away. Like, how am I ever going to get that one back? So, and then women go, oh my gosh, that is exactly what's just happened. I've dropped all the balls. I'm like your partner's also dropped other balls. And so then gradually, some of them

come back really fast. So you're holding the baby. You think, right, I've got to pick up that shower ball. Okay. I got to pick up the toilet ball and I got to pick up the food ball. Like those are the ones that immediately need to be picked up. Some of them I need to ask other people to do, right? I need somebody to come and pick up the laundry ball maybe for a few weeks. Someone's got to pick up the cleaning ball. Maybe my partner could do that. Someone's got to pick up the ball of all the other children that are in my life. Maybe you've dropped some balls that are so far away.

You can't imagine that you're ever going to be able to get over there to pick that ball up. And then you're asking, do I need to let it go completely? I really like that one. I'll just keep an eye on it. So this is what's happening. And gradually and gradually, you pick balls up again. and your new juggling act is different because there's a baby in there, and babies are a lot of balls.

Now, the difference that happens, and here in this transition, is how many other people are helping you juggle the balls? Because if you've got other people in your life who are capable of picking up some of the balls for you and nurturing you and supporting you like that, you're going to feel the impact of the transition and less, you're going to feel less out of control, less unable to do things that you really want to do, your life's going to feel a bit more together. So, you know, Amy, in your story,

I heard a lot, the whole journey, the birth, the postpartum, like you were almost juggling alone, right? But if, and we know this, that matressence and motherhood is supposed to be a community activity. And that's because we all help each other duggle the balls. And so the transition is huge, but then we're trying to do it all on our own. So I guess what I'm trying to say is it's always going to change you. We need to have a plan for the picking up the ball phase. But just acknowledging they're all going to fall and that's okay, that's what's happened. And sometimes just when someone explains that to you, you go, okay, got it. That's where I'm at. now there are controllable factors because for some women they're broken by this experience

they remember trauma from birth they feel those feelings of postpartum depression of sadness of loneliness of not coping that is one option but the other option and actually what we're wired physiologically for is to adapt and thrive into my motherhood with the love and support of people around us. So if you're here and you're beyond, you're past your baby having years. You're like, I can't go back and do that again. Just know that maybe you'll be a grandparent one day or your friend is going through it. You can change it for them now that you know this information because you're the,

you're part of the juggling ball journey. So that's my first point is you have, it's going to be a journey. It will transform you. Your brain and body will change. They will never go back to pre-babies. But there are some controllable factors. The next thing I want to let people know is that, unfortunately, society and the maternity care system is not necessarily on your side in this journey.

That unfortunately, and people get upset when I say this, because they say it's not fair. It's not fair on women. that they have to work hard at getting a positive transformative journey. But if we, it is not fair, but the reality is that nobody else is invested in making sure that you're positively transformed by your pregnancy, birth and postpartum journey. That has to fall on you and your support network. You can't expect that the powers that be and that hospital system,

and healthcare providers and maternity care system is going to give you everything you need to have a positive, transformative journey. And so you've got to sort of think, okay, I'm the only one who's heavily invested in this. You may have some amazing loved ones who sort of are saying, we want you to thrive, we want you to do this so well.

But it does fall on us in this context, in this society. So what are they? What can you control? that will mean you've got more of a chance of this journey being positive, transformative, and that's actually going to build you and not break you. Because pregnancy and birth can be a launch pad for women just feeling like all their dreams have been realized. And this is amazing and how incredible am I. And because I did that, I can do anything, you know?

So there is a real possible. for that, and we're actually wired for that. Our body wants to give us that. Society doesn't. So now we're on this uphill journey. How do I get that? How do I get what I'm capable of? I've got three really practical tips. So, number one, is, okay, you discover you're pregnant. I would suggest pursuing, with as much energy, money and time that you have, pursue a continuity of care, Now what that means is that you have the same midwife through your pregnancy, birth and postpartum. And I believe locally you've actually got some MGP programs, home birth programs. There are so many private midwives in Melbourne. Okay. So as for some women, this is a really

unacceptable option because the healthcare system is not geared towards this goal. I mean, In all the research, it's gold standard. Continue of care with a midwife produces the best outcomes, lowest levels of trauma. It's actually cheaper to provide. But for some women, they have to pay, particularly if you want a private midwife, consider this an investment in your ongoing transformation through your entire life. Amy's daughter's 17, and you still get tears when you think of her birth. you can do things to kind of avoid that possibility

because you remember your birth actually to your elderly. There are studies where they interviewed women in nursing homes and they can tell in vivid detail the events of their stories. So this is going to, it does change you forever. So it's a solid investment. It's a better investment than a lot of money in a wedding or a fancy car. is this transformation, right? Now, this comes with a warning

is that our maternity care system is incredibly medicalised, which means we are all seen as robotic pieces of machinery that grow and produce a baby, all right? Like that, that's how they come out. So that's how we're seen. This is this mechanical journey, all right?

That's not what it is. And unfortunately, some midwives have been indoctrinated and commandeered into this message. So I say with caution, get a midwife, because I know that some women have been harmed and not helped by midwives. And so you're still now, you're responsible, unfortunately, for trying to find a midwife that's going to help you and not harm you. And I'm sorry that this is happening in our system where you now have. to screen your own care providers. But you want to choose somebody, a continuity of care provider who's on your page who wants to give you what you want instead of giving you what they want you to have. And that is what creates a more positive journey, is that somebody's there to hear

you, understand you, and give you what it is you want and need without trying to coerce you into their plan for you. So that's number one, continuity of care. So the top tip with that is the minute you get pregnant or even before really have an understanding of what services are available to you in your area, how much money you can commit to that. And think of that money as like a solid investment

in your long-term well-being. And then the minute you're pregnant, go get it because they fill up really quick because they're amazing services. So mid-rifery group practices, home birth midwives, if you go to the system and just have regular care, you're going to see a different person, every appointment, you won't know the person who's at your birth, and your postnatal care will have some significant gaps. So that's the first step, continuity of midrifery

care. The next step, and as equally as important, is a robust support team through your pregnancy, birth, and postpartum, and you need to have like named people and what they're role is. So don't assume that your partner or the father of your baby or the other parent can fill the role that you want them to fill. A really important part is to just maybe acknowledge they're not the right person for that. And that's all right. You're like, I get it. You're scared. You don't really know what to do. Maybe you haven't done any reading. You've got no experience and you're terrified. That's all right. Your role is going to be. just a little bit different.

Obviously, you'll be at the birth and you'll be there, but now I need to fill that gap with somebody else. And no judgment, it's just the reality of it. So maybe you've got a really robust friend or a parent or somebody else in your life where you think that person. That is the one I need in my pregnancy journey, my birth space, and who's going to support me afterwards. Identify those people, tell them that they've been identified,

that you want them to have a role. And failing that, doulers. So if you don't know what a dooler is yet, they're kind of like professionals, professional support people who can interpret what you need, work out how to get it to you, and give you that support

if there's gaps in your current network. And there's dolers that are skilled in so many other things as well. But again, they'll have to be on your side, not have their own intentions. Because just as some midwives are commandeered into certain, philosophies, some duels want to take you where they think you should go. So again, you're screening your care providers, making sure that their intentions align with yours, and that they're there to serve you, not to kind of take you on the path that they've chosen for you.

So robust support team is the second controllable factor. The third, again, unfortunately, the system and maternity care services have a plan for you that you're unaware of. If you come in and you fit a certain criteria or you've been put in a particular box, there is a defined pathway for you when you get into hospital. So let's say you want to have a V-back, vaginal birth after cesarean. You're on the V-back path. They have a plan. They know in their mind how long this labour is supposed to take.

they're going to they've already decided how they're going to monitor you and manage you and if you want something different you're going to have to fight for that you need to know what you want and how to get around their plan for you and it's going to be a journey and I say fight because it's it's a definite battle this is why we need a robust team and this is why you need your own care provider that you trust because they are there with you to help with that while you're in the vulnerable position of labouring where you shouldn't have to fight. So that's your team.

They've got your back. You trust them. So unfortunately, you have to be, in order to know that, firstly that you've got to fight against the pathway that's been planned for you, you have to be informed. And if you're not informed, you will just be on the journey of whatever journey your care provider selected for you, not knowing that you have other options.

options, not knowing why, you know, other choices that you could make. So there's a huge range of places you could get information from. I mean, that was part of the motivation of the Great Birth Rebellion podcast, is that women and care providers could go there and go, okay, what are my options? And sometimes you might choose a more medical option that's even on offer. You might think, no, do you know what, I definitely want a cesarean section, or I definitely want an epidural in this scenario, I definitely want an obstetrician. That is actually completely fine because you getting what it is you feel like you want and need,

that's the key to a positive birth experience. Because it's, even if that's the ingredient to coming out of your birth journey thinking, oh my gosh, how good was that? I feel incredible. And that's if your decisions were respected, you didn't feel coerced, you didn't feel like you had to fight, that you weren't fighting people to keep their hands off you or all these kinds of things.

And I'll finish with a story of a client of mine who came to me, she had a cesarean section for her first birth that she didn't want and felt like she didn't need. She went to 42 weeks, they tried to induce her, it didn't work out, her baby got into stress and she went off for a caesarian section. She came to me wanting a home birth,

she was very traumatised. I can't do that again, Mel. I need something different. Right? That was the plan. Fast forward. She's 42 weeks again. And she labours for eight days. We're laboring and laboring and laboring and I'm coming and going over the eight days. She's, and you know, I'm checking in on her health. Yes, how's your blood pressure? How's your baby? How's you this? But more so I'm checking in, how are you? Can you keep going? Do you want to keep going? And she said, I want to keep going. I'm like, well, that's, I'm here. That's what I'm here for. And the minute you want to change your mind, I'm here for that too. So day eight, she says to me, Mel, I walked in, remember, she opened the door, Mel, get me a cesarian. And I thought, oh my gosh, this woman hired me

to get her a vaginal birth at home. Now she wants a caesarian in hospital. And I knew all this. I was a midwife the whole time. Said, radio, let's do it. So off we go to the hospital. And we get there, and the doctor was incredible. I said, right, she's ready for a caesarian.

He's like, you can't just walk into a public hospital and just request a caesarian section. And I'm like, all right, well, I mean, she's in tears by this point. She's exhausted. She hasn't slept. She's over 42 weeks having a V-back. She knows we can't have an induction that's kind of a high-risk option. She doesn't want one anyway.

And he saw her distress and, to his credit, immediately changed gears. She said, I can't keep going. And he said, we actually can't fit you in for another six hours. and she was distraught understandably because she was done and he said and he saw her crying and I was like um and he said let me see what I can do so off he ran he came back he's like we are ready to take you we're going now oh my gosh she's like great let's do it let's have this baby I'm like I'll see on the flip side I'll be on the post-nate award you're going to be fine she comes in had her baby and you know and we got her out of there within 24 hours because

I'm a midwife I can keep caring for her at home and in the days following I thought right we've got some healing to do this is it this was outside of the plan she's going to be upset like we've got it we got to some talking around day three she's like she was glowing oh my gosh Mel I am so happy this was amazing this was incredible I'm so happy everything's been everything from the last man, I feel like it's been like healed. I can't tell you how happy I am. And it reminded me, and I already knew, that the outcome at the end is not what changes women. It's not what turns their journey into a positive. It's not like all women who have vaginal births without complication. They're super happy with their births. And it's not like all

women who have cesareans and unexpected outcomes and interventions are unhappy. The key factor is, were they in control, could they make their own decisions and did their care provider listen to them and help them get those? So we're not looking for this ultimate like unicorn birth where everything's perfect. Actually it's how you're treated by the people around you that makes a difference to how well you transform into a mother because it's a community event. Right? So don't, it's not the elusive ideal birth. that we're all thinking, I've got to help this person, this woman, get a vaginal birth. It's you just have to treat them well.

Treat them like people. And look after them. And stop trying to convince them down your own path. Just listen to them. And when they say, I want this. Give them that. It's so not hard. And so you are around women who are having babies.

You can be someone to help them support. And if you're a care provider, that's your task. And if you're a woman, you've got three controllable factors that you can use to get the best opportunity at having a positive experience. So I'm going to say today. And that brings us to the end of episode two. Oh, my goodness, I learned so much from Dr. Melanie. And I can't wait to share more about her and her work in episode three.

She'll be on a panel with Amy Taylor-Kabazz. As always, thank you to Masey for editing this week's episode. For more from me, you can head to claretonte.com or Instagram at Claire Tonti. And for more from Lizzie Humber, you can head to Instagram at Lizzie Humber. That's L-I-Z-Y, H-U-M-V-E-R. All right, that's it from us today.