TONTS. - Music Therapy with Pip Reid

Episode Date: June 3, 2022

My guest in this episode is a very old friend of mine Pip Reid who is a music therapist and one of my heroes. Which I know sounds very corny but I’ll explain. She is someone who shares my enthusiasm for well almost everything and is a big feeling type of person. When I met her I instantly felt like I’d met someone who was a kindred spirit who lived with their inside on their outsides. Who got what it’s like to be joyful as a state of being and who feels things deeply in her bones. Pip is also a musician and her love of music resonates so much with me. She is a qualified music therapist who has also been a primary school teacher and has worked for a company called Very Special Kids using music to support children providing holistic palliative care for children and young people across Victoria. I am in awe of the strength, courage, compassion and empathy that it takes to work with families going through such huge trauma and grief. What Pip does with her music is to bring joy and light and play in the darkest of times. She is honestly a ray of sunshine to be around and a reminder for me of the power of music to shift and change us at a cellular level. Pip now runs her own business called Using Music while also being a busy mum to two little humans. Using Music works with educators and parents teaching them how to bring music into the lives of the children in their care. She runs workshops and webinairs doing work that I think is so incredibly important. As Pip says in this interview due to Covid in Victoria singing was banned in early childhood kinders and schools settings (actually everywhere) and the flow on effect for children, their teachers and their families has meant that there has been less music taught and shared within school programs. This as Pip will talk about today is a huge loss because of the enormous benefits of music for our brains as music can bring well being, improve relationships, help memory, build engagement and generally give kids space and time to move and play. I know for us in lockdown especially music became a lifeline for our family, when nothing else helped putting on a song and having a dance as a family made the mundane of the everyday joyful and silly and dare I say it fun!! Pip’s videos that she made raising money for the Very Special Kids 24 day challenge and then what became Pip’s piano bar where she would sit at her old piano with a candle and sing old favourites were I know so loved by so many in our community during Melbourne’s long days of lockdowns over the past 2 years. I really encourage you to go and follow Pip on Instagram she will make you remember things that I think we all know deep down – that we all more the same than we are different and that music has the ability to cut to the very heart of things and as she says in this episode a song can be a friend in times when we feel alone.Here she is the bubble of joy that is Pip Reid.For more from Pip Reid you can head to her instagram @using_music or at her website www.usingmusic.com.auFor more from Claire you can head to www.clairetonti.com or @clairetonti on instagramYou can email the show at [e-mail] credits:Editing - RAW Collings and Claire TontiTheme music - Avocado Junkie Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which I create, speak and write today, the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation, and pay my respect to their elders past, present and emerging, acknowledging that the sovereignty of this land has never been ceded. Hello, this is Tons, a podcast of in-depth interviews about emotions and the way they shape our lives. Each week I speak to writers, activists, experts, thinkers, and deeply feeling humans about their stories. I'm your host,

Claire Tonti, and I'm so glad you're here. Today, I have such a gift for you in this conversation. My guest in this episode is a very old friend of mine, Pip Reid, who is a music therapist and one of my heroes, which I know sounds really corny, but let me explain. She is someone who shares my enthusiasm for, well, almost everything and is a big feeling type of person. When I met her, I instantly felt like I'd met someone who was a kindred spirit who lived with their insides on their outsides and wasn't afraid to show it. Who got what it's like to be joyful as a state of being and who feels things deeply in their bones. Pip is also a musician and her love of music resonates so much with me. Pip studied music therapy at university and then went on to do a dip head and became a prep teacher. And then found her way back to music therapy.

Working with a company called Very Special Kids. Now, Very Special Kids uses music to support children, providing palliative care across Victoria. Now, what that really means is she was working with really sick kids and their families to support them through end of life. That's every parent's nightmare. And I'm just in awe of the strength, courage, compassion, and empathy that it takes to work with families going through such huge levels of trauma and grief. What Pip does with her music is to bring joy and light and play in the darkest of times. And if you meet her,

you can totally understand why families in these situations would want her to be there in those last precious moments. She's honestly a ray of sunshine to be around and a reminder for me of the power of music to shift and change us at a cellular level. Pip now runs her own business called Using Music while also being a busy mum to two little humans. She's so creative and Using Music works with educators and parents teaching them how to bring music into the lives of the children in their care. She runs workshops and webinars doing work that I think is so incredibly important. As Pip says in this interview, due to COVID in Victoria, singing was banned in early childhood kinders and school settings, actually everywhere.

And the flow on effect for children, their teachers and their families has meant that there has been less music taught and shared within school programs in general. This, as people talk about today, is a huge loss because of the enormous benefits of music for our brains, as it can bring well-being, improve relationships, help memory, build engagement, and generally gives kids and really anyone space and time to move and play. Think about the hardest and the most beautiful times in your life and I'm sure you can think of a song that was played at that exact moment. Walking down the aisle, standing at a funeral of a loved one. Music just improves our lives in so many ways and connects us and grounds us. I know for us in lockdown, especially, music became a lifeline for our family

when nothing else helped. Putting on a song and having a dance made the mundane of everyday life joyful and silly and dare I say it, fun. Now let me tell you a bit more about Pip's videos. During COVID lockdowns in Melbourne, Pip made videos raising money for the Very Special Kids 24-Day Challenge. Now, these videos were so fun. She was in a different costume every day in front of a different backdrop, maybe in Hawaii, maybe in the snow, and just singing and being awesome and joyful as a part of it all. Now, from there, she started making these videos called Pip's Piano Bar, where she would sit at her old piano with a candle and sing some old favorite songs. And I know so many people in

our community during Melbourne's long days of lockdown loved them. They just would put a smile on your face and make you feel a little bit less alone. I really encourage you to go and follow Pip on Instagram at using underscore music. She will make you remember things that I think we all know deep down, that we are all more the same than we are different and that music has the ability to cut to the very heart of things. And as she says in this episode, a song can be a friend in the darkest of times. Okay, here she is, Pip Reid. As a side note, there is a hell of a lot of laughing and joy in this episode. So just a warning, if you find that a lot, strap in. All right, here she is, Pip Reid.

Thank you so much for joining us, Pip, today on Tones. I'm so grateful to be here. Oh, it's so exciting. We actually met at James's brother's, no, yeah, through James's brother, right? Yeah. I remember where I was sitting and where you were sitting the first time I ever met you. Stop it. You had the biggest impression on me, I think, because we all knew that James had this new girlfriend called Claire and we were in my parents' place. And I remember we're all sitting in this circle in the lounge room and then you

came. And for some reason I was expecting, you know, someone quite timid or, you know, to come in a little bit quietly or something. And you arrived and you were funny and loud and engaging and I just, everyone teased me straight away that I had this big crush on you because it was just the energy that you bring to a space. That's how I felt about you. I felt that about you ever since I met you because we don't get to hang out for like almost never, ever, ever. But as soon as I met you I was like, Pip is the best person.

She's just because that was the same feeling. Yes. And it's the same feeling that I get from you and when I see your Instagram and your business, it's that beautiful energy and positivity and love like a big love bomb. Yes. Right back at you. Yeah.

Oh, my God, that's so funny. And I resonate with everything you're always sharing and how vulnerable you are and everything that you share. And I go, yes, I get it, but keep doing it. Keep being you because all of that that you bring is just not. No, it's not. You're going to make me cry. I think that about you.

God, this is just going to turn into an episode of fangirling. No, but it's, do you know what? That is the thing, right? The being vulnerable but also in a creative way doing it and continuing to do it. Yes. Right? So I guess I wanted to start by asking you that. Have you struggled with your creativity and keeping on doing things for yourself?

Yes. So big, that's a big one. But can we start with, because we are back here in my home space and can we do an acknowledgement of country? Yes, I would love that. So do what a lot of kids at the moment in kinders are doing. And this gives me hope for the future about how special the early childhood providers are at the moment and educators and supporting our children. Because this isn't something I grew up with. But if we reach down and touch the ground, so here's the ground and reaching up high and here is the sky.

Here is my friend and my friends. And here am I. And give yourself a little cuddle. How good does that feel? I love this. It's so good. So we meet today on traditional land with our First Nations people. We walk hand in hand.

We'd like to say thank you for letting us share this land that you love and we promise to take care. So Wominjika, which means come, come with purpose, and I have absolutely come here with purpose today and I really value you and everything that you bring to this podcast space and all of your listeners. And I really hope that I can offer something in our time together. And I really value this time and this opportunity. So thank you. So I'm happy to now dive into creativity, but that's just to help me feel grounded as well and to really acknowledge country. I think it's really important.

That was beautiful. I really think, let's park, I'll ask you that big question in a minute, but let's park that first and start right where you started with that beautiful acknowledgement of country. Why was that important for you? It's so important to me because so much work we need to keep doing in that space. I've had the really incredible opportunity to, I've lived in Darwin for a year and I did about eight months of work in a remote Indigenous community in Groote Eiland. And I really sort of got to experience firsthand about the challenges that people are facing and how we have to work both ways. We just have to understand and listen and really respect culture

and First Nations people. We really need to start there in listening and then to see if we can, yeah, work together both ways to help support, particularly I'm really passionate about working with children. So to work and support children and families. So that's, it's really important for me and to feel connected to something bigger than just, you know, us. And that's also really important for me to, yeah, to stay grounded. Where did you start?

Because you're a music therapist and you work with children, but let's go right back. Where did you start your career? Where did the idea, the spark of what you do now begin? I love this question. So because it starts in my teenage years, which I've heard you discuss before about those really tumultuous teenage adolescence, that period of life. It is so full on, isn't it? Isn't it? Mm-hmm. Thousand percent.

It's so much, Pip. It's massive. And I was really, really lucky. I have this gorgeous friend that I met when I was in prep. And I have a lot to be grateful to her for. She doesn't know this, but when I was in about year nine, we didn't go to the same school, but she said to me, there's this careers night happening at a big boys' school in this area.

Do you want to come with me and my family? We'll go. And I went there and I went to the section of M because I knew I loved music and there was a music teacher and there was also someone sitting there called a registered music therapist. And I was like, what's this? And they gave me a pamphlet. And I kept that pamphlet and I had it hidden in my cupboard.

And I would always just go back to this like, oh, music therapy is the planned and creative use of music to attain and maintain health and well-being. And I was like, this is like me. I love music. I believe in the power of music. And in those teenage years, music was the one thing that always just spoke to me, my heart, my soul, my everything. And it could speak to me like nothing else. And it was such a lifeline for me during those years that I think when I discovered at, what, I must have been 14 or 15, I discovered that there was this whole profession, like that you could do this, you could help people with music, like,

oh my goodness. Like, so that's, that's where it started. The reason that's also great is because that friend that took me to that careers night, she's also who I met my husband through. Oh, stop it. So I really feel like I owe her big time. What was it that drew you to her in prep? Do you remember? Oh, she's just, we even laugh about it now because we say we've got a low maintenance friendship, which is like, you know, life is busy and messy and we don't see one another

that often but there's always the love and care there and support and we're very different and it's just that's what makes it so special though. There's no, like it's not that complex girl stuff or woman stuff. It's just really genuine, authentic, I really love you and support you and that's the relationships I think you need in life, isn't it? Totally. And you understand it doesn't, especially once you have kids,

it doesn't matter how much time has gone past. Like years go past. As soon as you see them, it's like, how are you? Big hug. Tell me everything. And then it's fine. We'll just accept each other for who we are, which is so beautiful. That's probably like I haven't seen you for about,

I probably haven't seen you since like 2010 or something, you know, like a long time, but in physical real life person. But it doesn't make a difference. No, it doesn't. It doesn't. It's nice to see people in real life but also just that there's no, oh, none of that stuff, you know. No.

No, because, okay, this is a question I want to ask you because I was a really enthusiastic teenager, young person. I'm sensing that maybe you were also. Oh, yeah, maybe. Maybe, yeah. What is it about being an enthusiastic and big-feeling teenager that's particularly difficult? Did you find it difficult?

I found it difficult but I had lots of protective things in place. Music being the main one. I did things like I went to band camp and I went to a really nerdy school where there was lots of opportunities for music and for just being silly. And I think that really helped me. I think it also really helped me that it was pre-social media. So like I had, in my teenage years, my hair turned curly. That's when I got my frizzy curls at the front. And I had a face full of pimples and I had, I just, and I put on a bit of weight.

And so it was one of those things where I was yet to grow into my beauty and so I yeah I'd pull my hair up in this tight bun to try and like you know smooth down these new frizzy curls that I didn't know what to do with yeah and just kind of would hide you know I wore a lot of black and things like that you know just to kind of hide the body I was growing. So I think, yeah, so it was really difficult and I was a big feeler, but the protective things in place was music. I loved listening to music. I discovered Jeff Buckley, Radiohead, Muse, all of these big, like angsty, like emotional, dramatic kind of big bands and singers and songwriters. And they just spoke to me like it was like the depths of what they were singing about in the most beautiful pieces of music was just it just, yeah, resonated with me.

And I had a young cancer patient probably about 10 years ago said to me that music is a friend and music can be a friend. And they were talking about, they were a young adult and they were going through cancer treatment in an adult hospital with no other young people around. So nobody else to connect to. And their music that they'd sit in bed and listen to was like a friend. And that's always stood out to me and I'll never forget that line because that's I think what a lot of music did for me in my teenage years, in being able to listen and connect with what artists were saying directly to me.

I'm sure like millions of other people around the world. But that's right, isn't it? It's the power of music to just do that you to them or them to you, one person, not performing two thousands, which they actually are, but it's getting to the kernel of it all really, isn't it? So you were someone who had this dream in music therapy. Yes, like from very young. I resonate with that so hard.

All the writing I used to do was like I want to be a teacher, then I'll be a writer, then I'll do this. And it's just this whole, you know, yeah. And I love that because sometimes people laugh at it, that enthusiasm, right? But it's great. Yeah, well, I suppose my journey hasn't definitely been like from there. You can't now draw a straight line from when I was 14 to now

when I'm 39. Like definitely the line looks very squiggly and wiggly and lots of dips and lots of peaks and all sorts of things. And that's life. And I'm learning to just totally embrace this glorious, messy, chaotic kind of life of everything and know that I might get there in the end or I might go on a new pathway that I wasn't quite expecting and that might be even better than what I thought. So along my squiggly line from when I discovered music therapy, I have done different things. I've also become a registered teacher as well and I've done a little bit of work there in the prep years and yeah, moved around and I did a gap year and I've done some backpacking around Asia

and done all of the different things. But I always keep coming back to that really core thing of music just being unlike any other medium in this world. Like there's music and that's what's the most important thing. And we can connect with other people with music. It breaks down barriers of culture, socioeconomic difference, diversity, everything. You've got music, you can connect with another person and yeah, breaks down all of those barriers. So I always just keep coming back to it. But definitely the squiggly, wiggly roundabout line is my pathway. It's definitely not a nice, neat career line that you could look at, particularly when you then throw children and family and all of that into the mix, that then,

whoa, like things just suddenly like. Yeah, yeah, completely. Oh my God. I know that wiggly line becomes like mounted us for sure. So why kids? Why did you decide to work with kids? Because teaching obviously is kids too. Oh, I love kids. I just, the one thing I always come back to is I'm so passionate with working with children and their families and their communities and anybody that supports them. Children are just incredible. Like, so I've, this is my 17th year as a music therapist, and I've had the privilege of working probably about half of that time in really sort of acute settings. So whether it's a cancer ward with children or a cancer hospital or a hospice, so working with children in our state with their end of life care. But kids just want to live and have fun and play. And I think as

adults, the more we go along, the more I go along, things do become a bit more serious and you've got a bit, your lens is constantly changing because there's more demands on you in life and things get trickier. And when you just get to be with children, you remember these, like the five core things that children need for their healthy brain development, which is play, music, books, relationships, and environments. So if you bring it back to those five core things, you just, how can you not have a good time? You know? Like, and if you watch just now, like when I've arrived, I've just waved at random woman waving through the window at your children and they're just like, hi, like, you know, like that's it. And then instantly they've told me

about their names, your dogs, you know, everything. They're just so, like that's children. And they bring so much joy and happiness. And I think with communities and adults and parents and teachers, everything becomes quite tricky sometimes. And we just need these constant reminders to come back to play and music and good times, reading books and literature and poetry, reading, you know, exploring environments, being outside in the garden on a beautiful sunny day like this, even though it's almost winter, you know, like, and relationships and really fostering them. And yeah, because these are all the things that make us feel good. They give us a happy brain. They give us, you know, a happy life. And so I think that's why I love working with kids because you just, you have to stay focused and grounded in the moment

with them in those things. And you know, when you're getting it wrong, because things start to go wrong and behaviours start to become challenging and things start to get a bit, oh, you know, tense or children become dysregulated or things become tricky. And that's when you, yeah, need to break it back down to like, oh, do we need to get outside? Do we need to put some music on and have a dance? Do we need to, you know, go and see a friend? You know, do we need to, you know, read a book together? What do we need to do that's bringing it back to that play and fun and music and all of the things that children need in those early years for healthy brain development.

A thousand percent. And they have an ability, I think, right, to exactly what you said, bring us back into ourselves and what really matters. Yes. What do you think is sort of problematic about our education system at the moment? Oh, how much time have we got? Settle in. Set the timer. So, okay. I think one of the things is the pressure, the pressure and the assessment. That's not just on children, that's on teachers and school systems and play can very easily take a back seat and I think relationships

can take a back seat to who is this young person? What are they about? Are they neurodivergent? And if their wiring in their brain is different than a neurotypical brain, like how do we support them in our education system? How do we just say, who's this young person? Where are they at? What do they want to learn? How do they want to grow? Let's really work in partnership. I think a lot of that can be lost when we need assessments and rigorous things and systems, data, and also just the structures. Sometimes routine can be really comforting, but also sometimes I think you need flexibility.

And when you're trying to run a big organisation like a school or a childcare centre or an early learning centre or a kindergarten, sometimes there's not the ability to have flexibility with structures because it's like, no, this is the time to go outside. Not now, like, oh, that's the time later later or no, it's not time to eat now. Whereas as we know, that's not life. Sometimes you're hungry at, you know, a time that might not fall directly within the time that is the scheduled eating time. Permanently, always. That's me anyway. So I think, you know, just, you you know yourself and what you need in your bodies.

And so when you're going into these sort of set systems, and I really feel for anybody working in the education system because it's tricky and it's hard and it's, yeah. But we need more music in schools as well. And I'm not just talking about through music teaching, which a lot, I mean, a lot of that has been lost in a lot of our schools, but more like creativity and whole school music community programs, you know, about a young person saying, I mean, imagine in your teenage years, if you got to bring music and share that with others and say, I really like this,

this is an important part of my identity. I really resonate with this, you know, and you could share that with someone else, like in a really safe space. How cool would that be? Rather than like, oh, I need to do this in a, like not necessarily just all the structured stuff or the assessments or the learning and yeah, but also the time for headspace and for play and for breathing, right, rather than having to do all the time. Yes. That like human being, not human doing.

Yes, totally. What is it from a brain development perspective that music does, like actual physically brain stuff? Oh, that's so good. Okay, the brain is complex and we're still learning lots about it. But what we do know is that the brain loves music. Music predates language. Music has been like, it's just so important. If you were to do a brain scan, like while somebody's listening and engaging in music, multiple areas of the brain light up. So what that's saying is, is that multiple parts of the

brain are involved in listening to music, engaging in music. And what that's saying is, is that multiple parts of the brain are involved in listening to music, engaging in music. And what can happen is sometimes that some areas can compensate for other areas. What it also does is that it's processed in the primitive brainstem level. So things like rhythm is just like processed on such a deep, like the old or oldest part of the brain, that that's why it sometimes works. So if you notice, yeah, with things like breathing and music. Yeah, automated things. Yeah, it can tap into that.

The other really exciting thing is it can tap into, like, the whole limbic system. So that's where all of the big emotions and memories and things like that are processed. So that's where music speaks directly to those areas as well, which is why sometimes music makes us feel really good. Sometimes music makes us feel really sad. You know, sometimes it can motivate us, energize us, all those sorts of things. And you notice that's why when you go to the supermarket or a gym or any advertising,

music is used. So the other thing our brain loves is patterns and so music has rhythm. Rhythm is really regulating and it has really clear patterns. It's also really good for children because it's helpful with their learning. So say, for example, I'm thinking back to the 80s of any advertising that there was and I can chime with you if you want. So if I said 13, 30, 32.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Is that Gormovia? We'll come to you. Yeah. Yeah. 1-3-double-1-double-six. 1-3-double-1-double-six.

1-3-double-1-double-six. Pizza delivery. Oh, my God. This isn't sponsored, by the way. No, no, not sponsored. God, that's really deep seating. Oh, 1-3-hundred-thirty-six, 7-0-0-7-0-0. Really?

Yes. That's why it works. So it's because our brain loves patterns and our brain loves and it's also really comforting. The thing is like if you're a child and you need to learn all the letters of the alphabet, so we've got our 26 letters of the alphabet, if you were to say, okay, there's A, oh, there's B, there's C. Instead, we have A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K, L, M, N, O, P, Q, R, S, T, U, V, W, X, Y, and Z.

We've got four chunks. So really what our brains need to do is just remember four chunks rather than 26 chunks. So that's why music works so well with young children as well in helping them to learn. That's why we do all of our literacy and numeracy in play-based ways with singing songs about five little frogs or five little ducks or 10 fat sausages or all of these things. We use that because we're helping them develop language and concepts of maths, but in a really, really, really fun way and engaging way that's multi-sensory. It accesses all these different parts of the brain because we might be singing, we're doing

actions, we're moving our bodies, and that just lights up our whole brains. Our brains love it. And then it taps into that memory section where we go, oh, that's right. I love this song. I love doing this. I'm going to do this again and again and again. And where you have children that might want to do Incy Wincy Spider on repeat, you know, because it's, oh my gosh, I love this song. So that's helping them to learn communication skills or the social emotional skills. And it's really inclusive of any child, you know, and so that's really, really important. So, yeah, that's a big one about the brain and it's really complex.

I hope I kind of got something out there. But it's just our brains love music. So interesting. I have two questions. Okay. One, so why is it that our kids will choose one song and then smash that song for like a week, like a daily. They could listen to it 10 times over.

Because it's awesome. Kids love repetition. So repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition. They love it and their brains love it. So that's what's helped. So it's really, it makes them feel good because it's really predictable and they know what's coming next and it's a clear pattern and it's really predictable and they know what's coming next and it's a clear pattern and it's something that's tapping into that limbic system,

their amygdala, things that are going, this is really cool. I really like this. As adults, there's something called the mere exposure effect, where you know the first time you hear a song, there was a pop song I heard the other day and I was like, eh, second time I heard it, it was like, oh, yeah, oh, yeah. By the fifth time, I'm singing all the words. By the tenth time, I think I did an Instagram tour, you know. There's this bell-shaped curve. The more you hear something, the more you like it,

but then it does drop off again and then one day you might hear and go, I don't really like that song anymore. So that can be, I think, I'm not sure if that happens. I'm presuming that might happen with children as well with that mere exposure effect. The more you hear it, the more you like it. But with children, really, they just love repetition, repetition, repetition and predictable songs and games and experiences. It's really comforting. It's like think of, I mean, our struggle at home at the moment is like with food. You present a new food and it's like, what is that? Like, oh my gosh, Like, yeah, that fear. Whereas things like songs that are fun and, yeah,

there's a comfort in it as well because it's really predictable. Yeah, and they know what's coming next. It's so true. I was literally having this conversation yesterday with my friend Flick, who's a play therapist. Yes, who is amazing, by the way. Oh, my goodness. I should get you guys in a room.

It would be like a big love bomb. But, yeah, we were having that exact conversation that clicks biscuits or chicken nuggets. That's why kids love them because they're always the same. Always the same. Whereas veggies and fruits and things have different textures. Oh, sometimes you get a dodgy grape. Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. You never know. I bite into an apple and there's a squishy bit. Oh, the brown bits. Yeah, yeah. I know. I know. And that's scary, right, whereas I guess human beings themselves

love predictability. This is a question not about kids. Why is it when we see people who are, say, experiencing dementia or elderly people and maybe they've lost language, they don't recognise their family anymore, why do they still have the ability to connect with music? Yeah, because it's the memory and rhythm. So I've had the privilege of working with people at end of life and sometimes, you know, singing a preferred song that might've been a song that

they loved in their teenage years or in their early adulthood. And there might still be a finger tapping or I worked with one little boy and in his final days, he'd still be able to wiggle his toes to his preferred songs and music. And so rhythm, it's thought that rhythm is one of the last things to leave us. And so, yeah, music has this beautiful ability to help with reminiscence, to bring us back to those times that just make us feel really good. It's like when I hear my wedding songs, I just, oh, I loved that day, you know? So all of the good feelings come flooding back's like when I hear my wedding songs, I just, oh, I loved that day, you know, so all of the good feelings come flooding back to me when I hear that. And so that's the beautiful work that's done by registered music therapists in aged care centres and in, you know, palliative

care services. They're able to really harness that power of music and with the relationship and the therapeutic relationship, really work with people to really support them and provide comfort in their end-of-life care and, yeah, to be really, it offers something really magical and beautiful unlike anything else. Yeah. How did you begin working in palliative care with kids? That's a huge challenge to take on.

I think the thing I loved though was like sometimes I'd imagine what would this experience be like for this child if I wasn't here, like if music wasn't a part of their service. Like so I started working in a big cancer hospital and it was an adult hospital, but children would come for their radiotherapy treatment. And I had an amazing mentor there and we'd set up the room in the waiting area. So think of a big adult hospital.

We'd set up the waiting area with like a DJ box and a keyboard and a drum machine and a big box of instruments and really cool stuff that children will be able to come and like, instead of sitting in a really boring chair, waiting for some boring adults to talk about really serious stuff, they get to play. And, you know, there'd be children on the weekends ask, can we go, can we go, can we go to the hospital and see Pip? You know, and so those sorts of stories just kept driving me forward because it was like I'm able to get these children to the hospital. They were able, you know, not just me, we worked in a great team,

but like we were able to really make that experience something fun. And, you know, often children then would record their own songs, make their own videos, and then be able to listen to that during their treatment so that that's something that they could connect with and that could support them, that could help them during those treatments. So that's probably where it began. And it began with a great woman supporting me. And she saw something in me that I'm not quite sure I saw in me at that time, but she thought I was amazing. And so she kept creating these opportunities for me to be able to do that work. And because I was in my twenties, I just kept doing it and doing exciting things. And I did great research and got to present that in all sorts of exciting places.

What was the reset? Oh, it was great. So it was about children who were having their radiotherapy treatment and having a look at could supporting them to create their own CD of music that they had created, could that support them in some way? What was the effect of that when they were listening to, when they were having their radiotherapy treatment for their initial treatment? So they'd come to the hospital for six weeks, roughly. And their first treatment though, was if you ask someone, how long will their first treatment though, was if you ask someone, how long will their first treatment be? Where they're in a treatment bunker. So it's in an underground level in a bunker. And they would be often children with tumours in the brain

or different parts of the body that actually have a whole face. This is quite confronting, but yeah, a whole face mask that would moulded to their face that would pin them to the treatment bed just to make sure that the radiation was exactly the right spot. So to minimise the damage in other areas, but it meant that nobody else could be in that room while the treatment was being administered. So you've got a child lying on a treatment bed, which is not a comfortable bed, pinned to the, you know, young children. And like, that's a lot. And that anyone you asked about how long is the first day of treatment, their initial treatment, they'd say, how long is a piece of string? Because they don't quite know that because everything has to be perfect before administering. So that's where

I looked at. If I work with the child before that very first experience and help them to create a CD of music that they've created themselves, could that help that first day experience in some way? Could it help them to cope? Could it minimise distress? And what we found was is that, yes, it could. Like it really helped. It helped children to connect with staff that were there supporting them because they could talk about this CD of music that they'd created themselves. And it helped to minimise distress and to improve their coping. That then led on to, I worked with the team and we were able to work with younger children. So children that were

really quite young, like say under five, who normally would have to be anaesthetised every day. So be sedated to have their treatment every single day for six weeks. And so the impact of that is huge. So what we were able to do is to set up a video system where they'd be in the treatment room on their own, but they could watch on a video, maybe me and their mum and maybe their sibling outside the room, singing songs and talking to them and still playing and supporting them while they were there on their own to help support them during that experience. And we're able then to avoid the use of general anesthetics every day because of that relationship and that fun and that play that was able to happen through the increase of like, you know,

access to technology and things being able to, yeah. So how good's that? Oh my God, it makes me cry. I know. And I was in my twenties and then, yeah. So that's, I can't remember what your question was. Oh, no, that is so fascinating. Because the effect of general anaesthetic is a lot. Yeah. So that's a huge thing. And daily, it's a lot, yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. So anything you can do to help support families and children in that time, because imagine if you had to know, like, to get your child back again day after day after day. So if you can do anything in that like to get your child back again day after day after day. So if you can do anything in that system to make children's experience fun, bring it on. So that's what music therapists do. And it's really magical work. And yeah. Yeah. What were your relationships like

with the parents? Oh, the most incredible people I have met. And it's, I just, it's always such a privilege to be invited into those spaces with parents, particularly parents where it's in the last day, hour, week of their child's life. And they allow you to be there as part of that experience as well. And I think it's just what a privilege, you know, because that's such precious, precious time. And I really never, I have never taken that for granted that it's never just been, oh, this is my job. Like. No, I could never imagine you being like that in any situation. It's literally, you enter that space just with such gratitude. And I was, I'm always in awe of these parents and particularly parents who have been dealt a hand that is just really, really a lot, you know,

it's a lot. And I just think if I can do anything to help support them or their child or their experience to make it a bit happier, you know, to support their wellbeing, to support that experience in some way, then what a privilege. And just, I've always been so grateful that people do allow me into that space. Yeah. What surprised you about doing that work? That it's like, it is energising. It sounds like the wrong word to use, but like working with children is like, it's not the kind of work that I come home and go, oh, I'm so tired. Like, because it's children, like they want to play, they want, and they bring so much energy and they're happy to share that energy with others. And I think that's, I mean, that's the magic of children, isn't it?

They're happy to like play and share and sing. And there's also none of those like weird, you know, society like, oh, maybe I shouldn't sing. Oh, I can't sing. Oh, I can't dance. I can't. No, if you work with kids, they move, they dance, they sing, they share, they want to, my turn, your turn, you know, it's really, really, you know, and so it is, I do find that really, what a privilege, you know, I find that really energising and what incredible little people we've got, you know. Oh, completely. And it strikes me too when you're experiencing, when people are in those moments where they're experiencing incredibly difficult grief, there is something

about like a technicolour that happens. Do you know what I mean? Like the world, the way everyone sees the world is sort of heightened and you are kind of brought into the closeness of how beautiful everything is. Yeah, I read something about this the other day about the little things. You know, it's a man who lost his wife to cancer and he was saying that, you know, that just brings into perspective

that the little things should just remain little. You know, like let's not catastrophise all the little stuff. Like, oh, the lights turned red, you know, bye. Yeah. They did. But you know what? Like they're going to turn green again. Yes.

So it's trying to also just be in the moment and notice the little bits of things, I guess. Yeah, and the magic and the joy in every day. Like, I mean, at the moment, just to, you know, your dog, when we came in, it's like, it picked the sunniest spot and is lying in the sunniest spot. It's like, I want to do that, you know? I want to just have a great patch of sunshine and lie in it because how good does that feel? And often as adults, you know, we start to get really busy and we don't lie in the sunny spot on the ground and just breathe and listen to an album.

You know, we don't have time for that anymore sometimes and it's really, that's where, you know, self-care is a big catch word now and mindfulness and all of this. But it's really important that we do carve out and give ourselves real permission to relax and to feel happy and rest. I know, which is really hard when you become a mum. I wanted to ask you two things about this. First up, the work that you're doing with palliative care and with children, that's a huge emotional load to take. Were there things that you did in your own life for self-care to look after your mental health?

Yeah, definitely. Back to music. So I decided that I've always wanted to be like a really good piano player and I've never, yeah, it wasn't, I'd played a lot of instruments growing up, but piano only ever dabbled in and was never a concert pianist. But I'm like, that's what, yeah. So definitely I took up adult piano lessons and I had two little people at home and some of the times while they play, I would sit at the piano and do my practice. And I tried to do practice every day and I tried to have a lesson every week. And even during all the COVID lockdowns. I don't know if we're even talking about that anymore.

Can we talk about Pip's piano bar? It gave me so much joy. Tell the listeners what you did. Look, another one is like so I need creativity in life. That's particularly when things get quite stressful or like stuck at home or something. I need to be creative. And that's often when my creative juices are flow when there's things happening. So when we're at home,

yeah, I needed to do, have outlets. And the first big lockdown, I found myself making videos every day and trying to, you know, raise money for something and oh goodness, you know, and it was these daily videos of me being ridiculous. What were you raising money for? Tell everyone. It was for our state's very special children, so to support them receiving, you know, good quality end-of-life care. So that's what I was doing through my, it was,

we were meant to have a treadmill challenge where there was going to be an event and everyone had to run and that was what, the raising money, but in the end that was cancelled. And so it was instead, let's do a 24 day challenge. And I decided to, instead of just going for a walk each day and posting a video saying, oh, this is me going for a walk. Can everyone please give some money? I decided that, well, I've got a bit of an adventure every day and like, wow, this is me somewhere doing something and anyway. They were so fun. Those videos, I'll put a link to them at the bottom of this episode

because they're absolutely joyful and gorgeous and you'd be in the gear and everything and going for a walk. Committed, committed. Yeah, like in the snow and all different kinds. So special. So then the piano bug grew out of that. And it's also really hard, like, you know, with music we are trained to, and musicians, we're trained to be perfect.

So I remember all of the music exams I did over the years where I'd know if I came out, I wouldn't focus on the 4,000 notes I'd got correct. I'd be like, oh, that one long note, I really stuffed it up. And I played saxophone, so you knew if you stuffed something up, oh, great, awesome. But yeah, unfortunately, our brains are wired in a way that we really always grab hold of the negative. So if 50 great things happen, but then one dodgy thing, we really go, oh, one dodgy thing, we really go, oh, one dodgy thing, you know, and really focus on that. And it's really about retraining our brains

to kind of be okay with the one dodgy thing and let's focus on the other really good things that happened. So yeah, so the piano bar was a bit, I was a bit vulnerable doing that because I'm not a pianist, but I'm a hack on the piano. I love the piano. But yeah, I'd started doing my piano lessons and I was like, I'm going to share this with people. And it's not perfect. And my piano at home was a gift from our next door neighbour. We gave them a door and they gave us a piano anyway. And it's out of tune and it's been tuned, but because it's so old, it can never be tuned in concert pitch. It's like a full tone below. So it's also not great because it can impact on,

I can sort of sometimes hear that like, oh, this isn't the real pitch that the song's meant to be in. So it's a bit tricky. But, yeah, I just, yeah, one of the lockdowns, it was just I'd try and encourage people to be creative, just to like, yeah, this is me on the piano. It's Pip's piano bar. Come on over.

Like, you know, I'm just going to play a song. And what I loved from that experience is that people started sharing videos with me going, I've dusted off my piano. Or my favourite was a friend, he dusted off his bagpipes and played and he sent me a recording of that. So I went, well, let's play a duet. And I put his recording and I played the piano over the top. And so, you know, it's just, I suppose, reminding in those really tricky times,

particularly what the last two years have been like for everybody, so gross, you know, to remember the fun and the creativity. And because that's a real protective mechanism, you know, like a real really it can really help. And I'm really proud of you, Tonti, for your videos. It's back to her again. Oh, stop. Oh, my gosh.

Drinking coffee like a last night. Oh, thank you. Oh, my gosh. All right. So there's a backstory to those because I resonated so hard with what you said because I played the flute as a kid for some reason. I did all the exams, all the things. I had this really complex relationship with music

because I was never perfect at it, especially when I had to perform. I would always make errors. Oh, gosh, performance anxiety. Oh, the whole thing. And the idea that music has a competition, you know, right? It takes away. It takes it all away. And I feel like there's a real vibe with our culture for some reason

that if you're not the best at it, why are you doing it? You know, if you're not going to make it as a career, don't, you know. And not that that should be the message, but I kind of took that on board like, oh, I didn't get straight A's in my Amy B exams and, you know, and my, you know, vocally not perfect. Like I studied music at uni with my degree and I just had to get up there with all these opera singers who were like, you know, very elite and amazing and people would just pick apart what you do. And so you think, I can't do this. You know, music has always been my

thing that I've loved the most. Like what you were saying, it resonates at a cellular level with me. Yes, totally. But it's also been the scariest thing because perfectionism, focusing on the problems, not ever, you know, wanting it to just be this thing that I do because I love it. And so recently I've just had some sort of health challenges with just like being, you know, run down and burnt out from COVID and motherhood and all those things.

All of it. And because I've had to stop, I used to write songs and I've just started writing them again. And the idea of because I know they're not perfect and my guitar is, like you said, you're not a hack on piano by the way, but like I'm like just like, you know, I only know a few basic chords but the joy of it for me of making, and I almost like when the song finishes I think, I don't know where that came from.

Like I don't, how did that come out like that? And it's really vulnerable and kind of scary, but it's weirdly, I did it, it just comes from a place that's mine or that's an experience. And I just felt like what you were saying with your piano bar, it's not perfect. And people resonate with that. Keep doing it. And I think someone fabulous once had a podcast about like just make the thing. Keep doing it because I think, you know, you are so creative and the thing about when you're saying I don't know where that came from, your melodies, like they are unique and if you think of the word creativity it means like new and original and using the imagination and all of those things are big and scary because they've

never been done before and just where we started the conversation talking about oh the brain likes patterns you know we we like our safety and our security and we don't like the, you know, emotional centre in our brains to fire off and go, oh, fight or flight or freeze, what do I do, what do I do, what do I do? We like to feel safe. We like to feel calm. And unfortunately sometimes for us creative beings, we don't feel calm. We feel anxious. We feel nervous like because it's new and it's different

and it's new territory. And, you know, you're an innovator, like you're a pioneer. What you and your husband have been able to do with setting up podcasts before podcasts were a thing, you know, like that is, that is new and novel and scary because it's, there's no one that's done it before. You're not copying somebody else. Like you're doing it because you are creative and you're using your imagination. So it's the same with your melodies, your music that's coming out. It's pouring out of you and who you are because that's you. And you're not trying to be them or them. You're being you and authentic. And that's why

it feels good and it sounds good, but it's why it's also really scary because, yeah. And the perfectionist stuff, oh, the perfectionist stuff. I've started my own company in the last, within the last year. And with that, I've realised, I think, I think, I think I'll put my hand up. I'm a bit of a perfectionist as well and what I've realised from that is sometimes like, oh my gosh, perfectionism, go away because it just holds you back so much from getting started sometimes and getting to just start doing the thing and that's why I've always connected with anything you've shared out here in the podcast world because it is about that, it's like it's big, it's scary, I'm just going to do it anyway.

Let me just have a crack. And that's what you just need to keep doing, to push through and keep telling your brain you are safe, I am creative, I've got this, you know, and just keep doing it. Your melodies, you're standing on the bench in the kitchen waiting for permission to be free, to be free. I'm like, oh, my gosh, there is a mother speaking to me.

My whole life stands around the kitchen bench. Like I'm like at the kitchen bench I am running a business. I am mothering. I am doing this, that. I feel like everything happens from that kitchen bench. So hearing those sorts of lyrics, they just speak to other women and other mothers with the mental load, with the life, with the running the business and the children and the family

and everything that goes with that. You know, that's what you're doing and you tend to do it around the kitchen bench, don't you? You do. That's why you're standing and making lunches at the same time as like making that call to confirm that appointment what you're doing and you tend to do it around the kitchen bench, don't you? You do. Because that's where you're standing and making lunches at the same time as like making that call to confirm that appointment, you know. Yeah. It's big and it's a lot and if you're allowing your space,

yourself that space and that time to feel and to have that like, wow, that release, how good is that? Keep doing it. I want to see more, just more. Keep sharing. Pip, this is supposed to be about you. It is. I like dived into it when I was 14. Yeah. Oh, mate, that is so special. Thank you. I'm just, thank you so much. Because it is big and scary, especially as a mother. I think once you have kids, right, your world is, you're kind of split and you've got these little hearts walking around that are parts of you.

And I feel like maybe it's not exactly the same for dads. I'm not sure why. Sometimes it can be. I know their lives change, but I think something about womanhood and motherhood and being all of it at the same time. Yes. It's a lot. It's a lot.

And it's all new. Like, you know, when I drew you in the air, the squiggly line of my career life, huge major changes and things have had to happen around like becoming a mother or becoming like having different roles and responsibilities in life. I can't just get up in the morning and go today, I'm going to have a shower. And then I might, you know, go for a walk and have a coffee and then I might go to work. You know, it's like, no, no, no. I wake up and it's like, oh my gosh, who's, all my poor children, who's wet the bed? Who's done this, oh, my gosh,

now I've got someone washing, got to do this, oh, gosh, you know. Correct, exactly. And the 45 forms that I need to do for kinder or school or something, you know, it's just relentless and it's never ending. And if music is a comfort, like that brings something that you think is speaking to that part of your body or soul or mind that just makes you feel good, keep doing it. Oh.

Yeah, keep doing it. Well, you keep doing it. Oh, well, you keep doing it. So I wanted to talk about using music. Oh my gosh, my baby. It's so special. I was so proud of you when I saw it pop up on Instagram. Tell us about it. What is using music? Using music is, it's this passion project I've had.

So when my son must have been about one, back in 2017, I did that really, you know, that thing where I talked about it a lot. I did a lot of things and we took the risk and put him in childcare like one day a week, like one day. I was working as a music therapist one day a week and for the university and also put him in childcare one day a week so I could start to grow this idea that I had. And I registered the business name Using Music and registered the domain, usingmusic.com.au and went, right, this is my idea. Children, parents, families, early childhood centres, educators, we need music. It's a dying art. We need to support children to have music

in their lives, to support their communication and their language development, to support their social and emotional wellbeing, to support their inclusion in communities and in environments. We need to support parents to be able to use music so they've got a happy household, that things are running in a, you know, that there's dancing in the kitchen, there's singing in the car. We really, really need that. And so that was my idea back then. Fast forward a few years, you know, because it was a lot, you know, family life and things,

and the idea had to be parked. But it was always there and I was always trying my best to go, oh, this idea will never go away. This is something, this is a passion project of mine. And then last year I had experience early in the year, last year when my beautiful uncle Ronnie, who I just had like a second father to me, taught me how to drive, you know, was there at every birthday, everything, Christmas, everything. He was dying and I knew he was dying and that was the kick up the bum I think I needed to go, come on, you know, life is so short. Like, you know, and I look at everything that he instilled in me in all of the time that he gave me and I went, yeah, you have to do this Pip. So I've taken a leap of faith and I've set it up and it's running.

It's, you know, so it's turned into a company. And what Using Music is doing is I'm supporting this year kindergartens, so going into long daycare centres, community kinders, childcare centres and supporting the educators, the children and their parents to use more music so that, you know, children as well who learn or engage in different ways can still be understood and be included and have a good time. That children, the focus can be on learning through play and fun and music, singing songs, dancing, moving their bodies so that we're not doing the old school, like sit up straight, like, you know,

come on, someone's not listening. We're not doing those sorts of behaviour management stuff because we're talking to three-year-olds and four-year-olds and they need to move their bodies and they need to have fun and they need to play. So what I'm doing is offering workshops and mentoring to educators and parents and working directly with children to model how we can do this in a really fun, you know, way. So to support people so that children can have these opportunities. And I'm just loving it. You know, I'm getting to work across the state and so far it's just, you know, so exciting to work directly with people who are really also passionate about using music but also, like, haven't been maybe it's kind of dropped off a bit because, again,

of the layers of, like, whoa, this is all the things that we need to cover while these children are at kinder or as parents, like, oh, we need to get in the car and get here. And so, you know, we've lost the fun or the joy. And also in the last two years, singing, singing wasn't allowed in kindergarten services or early childhood services with children because of COVID. And so what's happened is people have lost their confidence and all the new staff coming through haven't had placement experiences where we sing with children, which it's what we do. Like that is how, like we know that children learn through fun and singing and play and music. And that's how they learn. And they learn how to be a part of a group through

shared music group experiences. They learn how to connect with others and, you know, turn taking, waiting, sharing, all of these things through singing songs. That's how they learn all the concepts. That's how they learn. And unfortunately, when the skill or confidence is dropping off, well, we're not doing that with children. So I'm trying to really just be, yeah, injecting some like, you know, knowledge and some skills. Love. Yeah, love. And I love that you said love because at the end of last year, at the end of one of the 54,000 lockdowns, you know, my son who was at the end of his kindertime, he drew a picture of him and me and we were standing side by side and we both had something in our tummy. And I was like, what's in our tummies?

And he said, they're love hearts. And this image of him and I, and I had a, he gave me a top bun, you know, because like that was, you know, lockdown, no haircuts. So the top bun, he had a top bun too. Not that he had a top bun, but he did in the drawing because he wanted to be like me. And we had these love hearts in our tummies. And that to me, I was like, that's what school readiness is. It's love and relationships. And we're working with any child where they're at to support their development, whatever they need? So is it they need more support because they're from a trauma background, from a different culture, from,

you know, where English is an additional language? Where are they at in their language? Are they neurodivergent? So are they, do they have autism? Are they autistic? Do we need, what does this child need? And let's meet them there. And then let's see if we can help them grow and develop from wherever they're at. And we can do all of that through play and fun and music. That's what we do. So I now think of the love hearts in the tummy and let's just love these little people. And through that relationship together, see if we can grow and develop together. Because I'm always learning and growing. There's little people like, I mean, you know, they're definitely, I mean, you know, I'm learning all

the time. And same with the people I'm working with and doing mentoring in the workshops, all the teachers and the educators and parents, it's very much partnership learning. So I bring me and my music therapy and my teaching background, but they bring them and their life experience. And they're, you know, some people have had 30 years experience in kinders or, you know, some people have had three years of experience in kinders, but they come from an incredible background with the all amazing, you know, diversity and richness that they bring. And together we work together to sort of think, oh, great, how can we keep doing this and growing in this space to make sure we're using music with children? Because

that's what's so important. Oh, it's so exciting. And have you found working online as well and doing webinars that way you can connect with more people in one? Definitely. So the webinars have been a real success, which is great because I wasn't too sure this year because I thought, are we all over webinars? Literally like, come on, you know, another Zoom meeting ID. But people have been really keen and I've been really excited because it's mainly people in our regional areas in Victoria. They've been really keen to log on and to get access to this knowledge and the information, the ideas that we're sharing through the webinars about using music to support communication or to support social emotional development and wellbeing. They're really keen to get that information and people have been quite happy that it's in a webinar forum. So I've tried to make them fun

and engaging. Oh, your Instagram account, my God, the videos that you share are so fun. Of course what you're doing with webinars is fun, honestly. The one that you put up where you're vacuuming, listening to music. Oh, dear me. Oh, my God. I know we're talking about using music, which is such an incredible program, but tell me about your home life. How do you use music?

Oh, okay. I was like, I've got my domestic life because where do I start? No. So using music at home, that's a really good one because it can be something that people go, oh, I really like music, but no, I don't access it anymore at home. Because what's happened is, and this is happening in Kinders as well, because people used to use cassette tapes or, you know, CD players and we don't do that anymore. And even cars now don't have a cassette tape or a CD player and things like that. So I think you've got to set up your home environment and we've definitely tried to do this because we were consciously aware of we're not listening to enough music at home. So we've now put some things in place to make sure that we've got access to music

in different areas of the house if we want it. So in the kitchen we have like a speaker. Yeah, well, like a hey, Google. Not sponsored. No, no. I don't know what you call them. Yeah, I don't know what they are either. That thing that you talk to Google thing.

Yeah, and always, just all the time, every day during either breakfast or cooking dinner or something, we're like, hey, device, can you play, you know, whatever. And I did that this morning because I was anticipating and excited about this chat with you. And I knew we'd probably touch on my teenage years. And I was like, what did I listen to? So you know what?

This morning, I have gone back and rehashed. I've listened to some really cool tunes this morning that took me back to when I used to listen to them on my Discman, you know what, this morning I have gone back and rehashed. I've listened to some really cool tunes this morning that took me back to when I used to listen to them on my Discman, you know. In Radiohead. Oh, my God, on Radiohead, yeah. Yeah. So that's how at home we do a lot of dancing in the kitchen if it's needed. Sometimes there's silence and that's really,

really important too to like decompress sometimes. It's nice to have just like natural, you know, no sound. We have music, a speaker in the bathroom to make sure that sometimes if we just need to bring everybody down that we can do that with some gentle like maybe some piano or some classical music or something beautiful and calming. And there's some amazing Australian artists as well. There's someone like Nat Bash, who she is incredible and you'd love her stuff. But she

was who my little girl went to sleep with every night, like, you know, listening to this beautiful piano melodies, you know. So yeah, in the early days, it was very much the kids loved going to sleep with music. Yeah, in the car,, it was very much the kids loved going to sleep with music. Yeah, in the car, there's definitely, we've always got something going on in the car. And I think the really important thing is, as a parent for me, is singing along too, in making sure I dance. I can be a bit silly. I can sing in the car. Because you're modelling. You're modelling that this is okay. We can sing, we can move, we can dance, we can do all this. And I do catch myself sometimes where we're in the kitchen and we've got these new bench stools.

So the kids are sitting up at the bench looking into the kitchen and there's me with a wooden spoon and I just put on something like some Bonnie Tyler or something about singing about something really passionate, maybe some Whitney or something big. It's a heartache. You know, whatever it is. More like, I need a hero. You know, one of those big power ballads or something.

Sometimes it might be something like if I've heard a Muse song and I'm there like, oh, my plug-in baby, singing something into a wooden spoon. And I notice sometimes the kids just keep eating their cereal. And I think this is just so normal for them. But that's also, I'm modelling that, that it's okay to sing and to dance and move and don't put any of those weird society things and layers on about, oh, is this right?

Is this correct? It's like if you want to feel it, feel it. If you want to move, move. Like our bodies love, our bodies need to move. So at home I try to move. I try to sing. Yeah, we have the out-of-tune piano which is in tune, it's in its own tune.

Which is just a motto for life. Just got to, you know, operate to your own melody, your own tuning. Yeah. So try to just, just, yeah, try to have it everywhere. Like, I mean, I do play other instruments as well, but they've kind of dropped off a bit, I think with family life and piano, piano is accessible, I think. Completely. So here's a fun, an interesting question, because I don't know if anyone else resonates with this, but I feel like because of Spotify and not having CDs and things, it's a bit like dinner. I get to go to put music on and I panic and I don't know what to put on because there's so many choices and I just go blank.

It's like I've never listened to music before and I can't remember anything that I want to put on. What are some like specific artists? I know you, was it Nat Bash that you recommended? What are some other ones that you recommend? Well, this is the thing about music therapy, it's never prescriptive. Like you can't just say listen to this and it'll make you feel good because if you were to ask a child, they might go Baby Shark,

I want to listen to Baby Shark. Do, do, do, do. Do you know, I mean that's had like billions of views on YouTube. And why is that? It's because it's repetitive. It's because it's catchy. It's got really like loud, fast driving kind of, you know, things. And in the video clip, it's got kids and kids love watching other kids dancing and moving. So, so yeah, I'm not going to start recommending things like that because even though that's really popular, that's not always the best. So I like to think of it as a bit of a musical diet.

Like, so think of anything else in life where you do everything in moderation. So yes, you can have your songs like the Baby Shark or things that are like maybe fast and energising, but sometimes you also need a bit of something else, like there might be a bit more chillaxed or, but it always, the most important thing is it has to be your preference. Like that's what's the most, that's what's the best music. I get your dilemma with like, oh, sometimes there's just too much, but maybe it's about taking the mindful moment for and saying, okay, let me do a little body scan, a little check-in. How am I feeling? And what do I want music to do? Like, so do? So do I need to be more energised here?

Do I need to find that track like the Spice Girls or Bonnie Tyler or like, you know, a bit of something that I know I'm going to move to and it's going to make me feel good? Or do I need something that's just going to help me rest and relax? Am I going to find that? And what music do I know I love that will help me feel like that? So it has to be your preference. So it's not prescriptive. What music do you play for your kids in the bath? Like the calming? Oh yeah, the calming stuff. Yeah, calming stuff. Well,

often my husband's really, he and I are very, very different. But the one thing we connect with really well is that we both love music and he's got a really eclectic taste as well. And so I think he's often in charge of that and he plays things that, yeah, so anything like a lot of the big term is classical, but it's not necessarily just things from the classical period, but just, you know, any kind of instrumental music or things that are gentle and relaxing and bringing things down.

Yeah. Because it really does shift, doesn't it? Totally. When you can find that piece of music. I went to a friend's women's circle recently. Awesome. Yeah. You would have loved it.

We did sound therapy. Women's circle, I am sold. Oh, my gosh. It was so good. And she had some music. There was a group called Beautiful Chorus, which are like a group of women singing a cappella. And I'd never heard them before and it was like remembering just, yeah,

you never know what will resonate with you. But just watching a whole group of women listening to a whole group of women singing a cappella and then this kind of sound therapy and sound immersion that happened where they're like playing drums and sounds and we're all lying and doing yoga listening to it. Because it's like you can, I believe you can hear sound, you can feel sound waves.

It's like when you listen to a song on an album and you go, oh, I really like that, but then you go to the concert and you can feel the bass or you can feel the, you can feel, you go, oh, I really like that. But then you go to the concert and you can feel the bass or you can feel the, you know, you can feel, you know. And so I can imagine being a part of a women's circle, feeling like the acoustics of like a bunch of women all singing together. Yeah. It's so good. Like how lovely.

It's so good. And then there is a real joy in singing together with another person and it's often something that, well, I can't sing. I's so good. Like how lovely. It's so good. And then there is a real joy in singing together with another person. And it's often something that, well, I can't sing. I can't sing. I won't do that. Back into the perfectionist stuff where people go, no, genuinely, I can't sing. And there's a very small percentage of people who might have a condition where they can't, you know, hear music or the tones or things like that. But that's, you know, I think if you've got a voice, you can sing. You can just have a go and just sing. Yeah, it's totally that, isn't it?

It's existing in that space to have a go, which I think is just generally about everything in life. You just need to just make the thing. Have a go. Have a go. Right. And back to something you mentioned a long time ago about, like in this conversation about the opera singer, like, oh, wow, they're so amazing. The other thing that I really like as a mother is comparison is

the thief of joy. And it's really important for me sometimes to check myself and go, that's really amazing for that child that they're doing that really amazing, cool thing. And that's it. Like not then going, oh, but my child's not doing that. Or, oh, well, and sometimes, wow, how cool is that mum? Look what she's doing. That's super. And that's it. No other follow-up of like, oh, but I'm not doing that. Or maybe I should be doing that. Should I be doing that? Oh, am I a bad mother? Cause I'm not doing that. Like, no, no, no, just stop. Don't compare. Like, that is awesome for that person and that is awesome for that child and that's it.

Like, that's it. Like, yeah, so for those opera singers, I can imagine I would be there going, wow, like I had dreams. Actually, I didn't admit this at the start. I actually, when I was a child, what I wanted to be was Pavarotti. That's the best thing I've ever heard. I wanted to be Pavarotti and clearly I'd been exposed at home to Mum had a Pavarotti CD and I wanted to be him

and I used to practise in the shower just a bit of... And that started then, you know, mum had these, you know, and my parents had vinyls as well and I used to listen. They had one that was like a German, German songs. And there was one song that was, and, Rosa, Rosa. And another one. Du magst die Geld, aber ich mag das Bett. And that means like you make the money but I make the bed and I wash the socks, like, you know. And those sorts of things I just loved.

You know, I was a bit limited in those days of like access to music so I'd just take what I could. So, yeah, I really wanted to be Pavarotti but I'm not Pavarotti and I'm not Dame Nellie Melba. I'm not an incredible opera singer, but I love them. And so I think that's the same for you in thinking of that perfectionist voice that can come through, go, oh my gosh, I've just heard these amazing opera singers. Aren't they amazing? And that doesn't diminish the fact that you're amazing. You're amazing in here and like they're amazing over there. Like that's, that's how it is. And that's this women supporting women amazing in here and, like, they're amazing over there. Like that's how it is.

And that's this women supporting women thing as well of we're like, oh, my gosh, I love them, they're awesome for that and I'm awesome for this and just can't, yeah, yeah. That is so wise, Pip. That is such a good place to finish because it's so wise. No, we can keep going. We've got time. Don't worry.

When I say finish, we've still got time. But honestly, like that is so wise because I think that robs us of so much in our lives and I know especially with mothers and mothers' groups and things, there's ones that are like we're all in this together. Oh, mothers' groups. Gosh, where do we start on that? Right? We're all so supportive and then there are ones where who's doing what

at what time and then you start to feel so judged or worried about what other people think of you or worried about your child. And yeah, and that idea that just being supportive and championing other women. Yes. Because I think sometimes the way we've grown up in patriarchy and all of those things mean we think there's a scarcity mindset. No. Right?

No. There's not there, right? Plenty of room. Plenty of room. And I always butcher this saying, but it's like when the ocean rise, like all boats rise or something. Yes. You know, like rather than looking at another woman going,

well, she's doing that. Well, look at me. Think amazing for her and how great to be supportive because look what happens when you support her and then, you know, you can all succeed together. It's not a little slice of pie. And just how bad does it feel to feel negative? Like about when you don't feel good, like you just kind of, you can then go into that sort of negative spiral. And I think it's really good to just pump other women up and it helps. Yeah, I definitely, I'm all for that. Totally.

I completely agree. How did motherhood change you? Because I'm just so interested in this, particularly as someone who works with kids. How did it change you and your perspective? Well, it did change me. Like I think with becoming a mother, it's just everything changes, doesn't it? Because physically there's huge physical changes. And I think that's probably the biggest one I wasn't ready for, the physical stuff that come with everything, you know, the pregnancy and then the

birth and then the post stuff. And, you know, my body's never the same, my shape, my size, my everything, nothing will ever be the same again. And that's that. So there's this physical stuff. And then, yeah, there's just the deep emotional stuff because you've just, you've got this little person that you just love with every bit of you. And it's not true for every woman, but for me, yeah, like it's just all the emotional connections. It's your song, you know. It's your song. Back to her again. It's trying to find who am I now with this whole new identity as a mother.

Like everything has to shift and change. And that's where I think just keep, for me, I keep checking in and remembering what makes me me and that's where I keep coming back to music because I know I love music. Music makes me feel good. I like playing, singing, engaging, watching, everything. So yeah, I have to keep coming back to the things that I know they're never going to change. Like that's, yeah, that's true. So, but yeah, motherhood changes everything and time, like just time. It just, yeah, runs away.

But I have, I'm really blessed. I've got the most like magical kids and they, they're just so unique. And I had someone the other day say, oh, your children are very unique. And I thought, oh, I'm not sure, I'm not sure what that means, but I'm going to take that because I'd like them to be unique in themselves and just who they are and they've taught me so much and Motherhood's a whole other podcast. Isn't it?

We can be here for another two hours. It is. It is. And I just think the more that we can share that and just as we're all different, it's different for everyone. Yes. But I just wanted to say a big thank you for the work you do and thank you for this conversation.

What a gift for people. You're the gift, my goodness. Oh, stop it. Honestly, this is such a big, fair, girly conversation, isn't it? Good. Absolutely. So if people take one thing away from music therapy in general and how it can change things, what would you want them to take away today?

Yeah. Think of the love hearts in the tummy, the music speaking to the deepest parts of your brain that help you to feel good, the parts of your brain that have all those memories that remind you of the good bits and can help you feel online, like settled and calm and regulated and connect with other people. And yeah, so just think of, I don't know, music makes you feel good. Just do it. Yeah, just do it. That's it. And the more you do it, like the more that other stuff will just strip off about

like, oh no, I can't sing or I can't dance or I can't whatever. And that video that you alluded to where I was like, or mentioned where I was like vacuuming in the kitchen, that's because I'd had a child who was four. And I said to them, if there was something, because I was about to do a workshop with their parents, I said, if there was something, because I was about to do a workshop with their parents, I said, if there was something that you would like your mummy or daddy to know about music, what would it be? And they said that they wanted their parents to dance more. So that's why I went home and went, right, I'm going to take that child's advice and I put on Bonnie Tyler, I did a hero, you know, and I did the dinner and I did the vacuuming and all the tasks, the stacking of the dishwasher,

the cooking of the whatever on the stove, like the quick vacuum. I did all of that with music and tried to move my body. And I was like, yes, thank you, beautiful four-year-old, for giving me that little prompting reminder as well of move more, sing more, dance more. Like that's what kids want to do and they can help keep reminding us to keep doing that too. Completely. As you said that, I just thought about all of those families in all of those lockdown settings, right? Where we couldn't do anything else, but you could put a song on

and you can dance as a family. Shift the mood. Yeah, totally. And that's honestly what got us through lockdown, I think. Beautiful. And I know a lot of other families I've spoken to have said the same thing. It's like when everything is hard, even if one person is still having a meltdown, the three of you can dance and it does shift and there's something in that that's just so deeply human and a deep need.

Yes, absolutely. And I'd say it's the person that's having the meltdown, pick their preference. So what do we know will make them feel really good? Because I know sometimes my preference isn't always, like, you know, it might not be the way accepted one in the household. And, yeah, so, yeah, it's about that too. But that's so, yeah, music has that power to shift the mood

and to make us feel good. So yeah. Well, thank you so much for coming in, Pip. So where can everyone find you? What's the best way for them to contact you if they want you to work with them? Oh, that's a good question. Probably the website. So using music.com.au.

I've got an Instagram and a Facebook, which, look, I find them really, they're really time consuming and I haven't had much time. So I try to not be on there too much because I find it zaps a lot of time and because it is a new company, it's like everything's running. But, yeah, connected me on anyway, I suppose, Instagram or Facebook or like, yeah, through the website really. Okay.

I don't know. Excellent. Just come. I live down the road or like, yeah, through the website really. Okay. I don't know. Excellent. Just come. I live down the road. Come on over, everyone. Oh, my gosh. Give me a call. My phone number is.

Yes. Give me a call. I live at. Excellent. All right, I'll post that in the comments below. Great. Oh, no, but definitely go and check out Pip's Instagram and I totally hear what you say about social media.

I've really had to be very mindful with that, have a love-hate relationship with that. Definitely, because as we come back to, I know this is meant to finish, but your creativity, it can be zapping of that as well because when we talk about creativity as being something new and novel and you're creating and all of that, if you're just watching what other people are doing or copying that or being influenced by that, like that's not necessarily the line that you're trying to travel or follow. So it's also, that's where I'm also really mindful of like,

you can go down this rabbit hole of, I've just watched stuff for an hour and I couldn't tell you what, like how many 10 second clips of things I've watched. Like, you know, it's just, it's a lot. And I think, you know, that's a lot for our brains as well. So I think it's really good for me to also make sure that, yeah, I'm not on those things. Totally because actually there was something I read, Nick Cave. My sister sent it to me. I know Nick Cave. Oh, amazing.

So he. Oh, I really feel for him at the moment. Poor man. Yes. Yeah. Oh, what's happening with him? I've missed that. His son's just died. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. for him at the moment. Poor man. Yes. Yeah. Oh, what's happening with him? I've missed that. His son's just died.

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, my God. Yeah. Horrific. I've missed that. Oh, my God. So he's lost two children.

Yeah. Oh. Yeah. Sorry. Now we'll have a bit. It's okay. Sorry. And isn't that interesting because that song I know I've listened to that a lot when my

dad died. And I think what we make is sometimes for ourselves and sometimes not for ourselves but maybe even not in the media see when we make it but afterwards in the looking back on it. And he's so special. And one of the things my sister sent me about because he writes about creativity so beautifully and he talks about creativity as being like a sentient being that it's your job to care for it and put in good things. Like we feed ourselves with good food.

Yes. It's the same and actually it's not your business what comes out, it's what you put in because that will then shape what you write and make. And I've noticed that I've been really actively trying to listen to music that speaks to me, like Into Your Arms. Yes. There's a beautiful artist called Martha Marlowe who I discovered. Yes, oh, my goodness.

I went and saw her perform. I know, I saw that. I was like, oh, gosh, I'm a bit envious. Yeah, lovely. It was the first concert I think I'd seen live and I sat right at the front. My sister was like, these seats are very close. I'm like, I know I want to see everything she does. But it was so moving. And do you know what you also did? You then posted you on the train looking out the window. And because this is the train line I used to travel every day to go to school,

I just love that because you had the music over the top and that looking out the window, I was like, that's the thing. If you look around on the train now, everybody's on a device looking down. Whereas those old days of like, just looking out the window and recognising the environment and the bridge and the trees and the sun speckling through, like, you know, those sorts of mindful moments, we don't allow ourselves time for that now. Like, you know, those sorts of mindful moments, we don't allow ourselves time for that now. Like, you know, just sitting at the train station, like not looking at a device, that's quite strange. Like, you know, so having, so that's what our creativity is as well.

You're going to a concert. I think then you shared that video and I was like, yes, because that's just so creative in itself going like, here's me on a train with the sun sweeping through. That's so magical? Oh, thank you. You know, so, yeah. Oh, because it, but that's my favourite.

I mean, obviously I was holding my phone. I know. And then you're going, I hope nobody's watching at me looking like, you know. People in the carriage, I know. But I wanted, because that's what I was sitting there listening to, watching the sun come through the trees and I thought. Oh, magic. I want someone else, like, to know that that's out there.

Well, I shared it. Thank you. Yes. Because when people are like in, I remember being in lockdown and being stuck inside and not being able to do that. And when you're a new mum, when you've got like complex things going on, sick people in your life, you're caring, you don't have the space or time or luxury.

It felt like a luxury. Yes, it does. To sit on the train by myself listening to such beautiful music. Yep. Like that was a joy. And I thought maybe I'll just share it because if there's one person even that. Hi.

Yes. You know, while they're like doing their tax return can be like, oh, remember. It's like remembering that there's that part of things, you know. And I just going back to, I don't remember why we brought up Martha Marlowe, but I just, her music spoke to me so deeply and I've really been trying to absorb that and listen to that and do less of the doom scrolling on social media and mindfully listening to so much music

because sometimes when I haven't been making music, I found music hard to listen to because it was almost like look what they're doing and I love that so much and I want to be doing that but I'm not good at it. So I'm not going to listen to it because it makes me feel torn or something or jealous, which is not a good emotion to sit in. So I listen to music that is like joyful and fun and pop music and stuff, but I couldn't listen to stuff that was too close to what I would want to make. Yes.

That sounds so self-indulgent. No, it doesn't. But. I think it's very honest and raw and that's why we all love you, you know. That's so cute. Anyway, so yeah, that's why I, what I've noticed is once I've been listening to that stuff, that's, it's like cultivating that creative part of yourself and giving it space and time and the respect.

And I've been booking a date with it. Oh, good. I know because my daughter's a bit older. Yes. And even sometimes it's 15, 20 minutes but I put it in my diary and I go, that's it. Yeah, not negotiable. No, I do a singing lesson and then I go and do 15 minutes

of like hanging with my creativity and then I'm like, all right, get a coffee and we're back into the mess of and magic of all of it. Well, congratulations on doing the thing. Thank you. I'm doing the thing. I'm doing it. I'm using music. I'm like really championing and have all these amazing other people,

mainly women as well, doing it too. So, yeah. And just getting that out there. All right. Thank you so much. Oh, my gosh. Yay. You've been listening to a podcast with me, Claire Tonti,

and this week with the wonderful Pip Reid. For more from Pip, you can head to her website, usingmusic.com.au or go and follow her on Instagram at using underscore music. She has so many videos over there and they'll just make you smile. I also just think if you are an educator or a teacher or work with kids or a parent of kids, just that little kernel of an idea of bringing some favorite songs into your house in however that looks for you. I just reckon it changes things, as Pip says.

So I totally encourage you to do that. I'm going to do that now too, bring in more music. One of the songs that our family cherished during lockdowns and just in general was gifted to me by a friend, Kerry. It's called Let the Tall Ship Sail. And it's from a TV series called Kilda written by American musician, Walter Martin. And it's a song that you can sing as a whole family. I think it's got so much love in it and it never fails to shift the mood in our house. So that's my favourite one at the moment. But as Pip said, go and find your favourite and put it on, especially if things are going pear-shaped at home. All right, as it seems to on the reg sometimes in our household.

Thank you as always to Roar Collings for editing this week's episode. Thank you to Maisie for running our socials at TonsPod and also at SuggestiblePod, which is my other podcast. If you enjoyed this one, I have lots of other interviews that come out every Friday, one with the wonderful Felicity Odgers, who's a play therapist. You might find that really interesting. And Suggestible Podcast comes out every Thursday, which is a show I do with my husband, where

we talk about parenting and mainly recommend you things to watch, read and listen to for those times when you're on the couch and are trying to figure out what to do with your downtime. You know, that small window of time that we have as parents. So that's suggestible every Thursday, Tons every Friday. And you can find me on Instagram at Claire Tonti or at my website, clairetonti.com. And till next week, put on some music and let the tall ship sail. Okay, bye.