TONTS. - Office Space with James Clement

Episode Date: November 9, 2021

This week on TONTS. I talk to James Clement (otherwise known as my husband man or Mr Sunday Movies). This is the final episode in the season and is one of my favourites. James and I discuss why the film Office Space changed the trajectory of his life, what it's like to become a parent, why he does what he does and his relationship with his inner critic. As always thank you to RAW Collings for editing this week's episode. Subscribe here for – tontsnewsletterYou can find me on instagram @clairetonti or at www.clairetonti.comYou can email me with suggestions for episode topics and guests to [e-mail]. Feel free to leave me a voice memo to be included in the show. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, welcome to Tons. I'm Claire Tonti, and this is a podcast about feeling all of it, about our inner critic, our emotions, and the stories we tell ourselves that make us who we are. This is the last episode for this year of Tons, season one. And I wanted to thank you so much for jumping on board for this show. It has just been a delight to make, and I've loved every minute of it. There absolutely will be a season two that will be coming out in 2022 and I've saved the best till last. No, there's been heaps of great guests all the way back through taunts for this year. But my guest today is James Clement, who happens to be my husband, man, and also Mr. Sunday Movies. Now, back about five years ago, we did an interview for Just Make the Thing where we talked a lot about creativity and his story.

And this is an extension of that. We cover some old ground and also some new ground about what it's like to be a parent of two little kids, about parenting through a pandemic and about his own inner voice and inner critic and what he does to keep himself in his own equilibrium and why he is the person he is. So James makes so many things and I admire him so much for so many reasons, one of which his consistency. And he always inspires me to just keep going with creative endeavors and I think he inspires a lot of other people as well.

He's also very cynical and sarcastic and his knowledge of film and TV and pop culture is crazy. He has a mind palace in there that's kind of amazing to tap into. So here he is, my favorite person, James Clement. Hello, James. Hello. Hello. Welcome to Taunt. Well, look, it's good to be the backup guest that you've been keeping in a special glass case. Break in case of emergency. That's right, yeah, essentially.

You're always my backup. You know that. That's true. No, I've just been saving the best to last. Oh, wow, is this the last one? Yeah, this is the last one just for this season. We're going to do a new season next year. Oh, very good, yeah. But this is the last episode just for this season. We're going to do a new season next year. Oh, very good, yeah.

But this is the last episode of the season and it is a pleasure to introduce the one, the only, Mr Sunday Movies, a.k.a. James Clement, a.k.a. Husband Man. Welcome to the show. That's right. We are married, people don't know, like Husband Man specifically to you. I'm not like the world's husband, like a husband man specifically to you. I'm not like the world's husband. Or are you?

He's married to everybody. Yeah, exactly. Who's just half the world's population he's in a relationship with, just flying around the world attending various dinners. Anyway, thank you for having me. It's a great show and I really enjoy listening to it, so thank you for having me along. Thank you very much.

Well, this time I'm just going to be asking you some questions. So sit back, relax. I'm going to answer. I'm going to delve deep. No, no. Tons, we talk a lot about mental health and inner critic and inner voice. So I wanted to start there. What is your inner voice like? Oh man, I'm not sure. I'm just, it's a lot of me just being like, hey, shut up. Like that's not, that's me telling my inner voice to shut up because it's like, this sucks., I'm not sure. I'm just, it's a lot of me just being like, hey, shut up. Like that's not, that's me telling my inner voice to shut up because it's like this sucks. And I'm like, I know, just shut up. Do you know what I mean?

Like I listen back to something, I'm like that's not very funny or good and the audio sucks. And I'm like, I know, but I'm just, I'm doing my best, all right? Get off my back. That's like really great advice though in a way. I mean not that everyone should be telling themselves to shut up but that you don't let it stop you. Has there been a time in your life where it has stopped you?

Yeah, definitely because, you know, what we do, what I do I guess, we do similar things. There's no real template for it and even as an extension of that, there was nobody in my life who was doing anything even remotely like this. I didn't know anybody in radio or TV or film or anything like that, you know what I mean? And also this didn't even exist like 20 years ago, like in this current form. Making YouTube and podcasts.

Yeah, exactly. So, you know, there was mainstream kind of media, you know, and it just seemed like that's impossible to be a part of, you know, and it just seemed like that's impossible to be a part of, you know. And so in answer to your question, I forgot what it was. Okay. So what I'm interested in because you were teaching before you started all of this and because I know you, I already know the answer

to this question anyway. Sure. But listeners might not know. There was a point in your life where you really wanted to do something creative and you couldn't and you tried and then you gave up and you battled a lot. What was going on in your head during those years before you started actually making a YouTube channel or doing anything? I think just like looking for purpose and reason and like being frustrated.

And I think then getting my own class kind of quelled like a lot of that, you know what I mean? Because you're like, oh, I enjoy this this and this is not only is it fun it's kind of helpful but there was still that in the back of my mind like I want to do something that's like just for me you know what I mean yeah so so for people who don't know you did a business degree first yes I did which is hilarious because you hated it yeah and I don't why did you choose business because it was I'm sure I've talked about this before, because it was just the thing that you, well, I felt was kind of expected of me.

And not that anybody I know that was like, you need to do this particular thing, but it was just that was the world that I kind of grew up in, you know. A lot of people I know in my family do like similar things. My friends, like probably 95% of them are in the business world and finance and banking and all that kind of stuff. So it was just like, oh, well, I guess this is what you do. You finish school and then you do a business degree and then you get a briefcase

and you get on the train and you go into the city and then you do that for 40 years. Do you think that was 40 years or whatever. Do you think that was connected in with your idea of what a man should do? Yeah, maybe. I mean, because, I mean, especially like then and I guess even earlier than that, that was the expectation that, you know, in some fields, you know, men would do that. They'd go out and do that thing and I guess somebody would stay at home and look after the kids. But that was never my idea that like, oh, I'm just going to marry somebody who's then going to stay home and look

after kids that wasn't like the thing that I I wanted you know what I mean if somebody wanted to do that yeah whatever you can you can absolutely do that but I think it was more kind of like just being caught in like a flow and a wave do you know what I mean so it's like oh this okay yep I'm doing this okay I know I should have really figured it out because at high school i did like you know business and economics and and these kinds of things and i hated it then like it was like i'm like i don't understand this well enough or i don't not even that i don't want to understand this and but the things that i like gravitated towards which was like writing and um media and things like. And I loved movies and television and all those things as a kid, which, you know, who doesn't?

But you really love them. People love them, but you have like a mind encyclopedia palace going on. Yeah, I think I naturally kind of remember those things like effortlessly, you know. I mean there are people who are extreme film buffs that I don't consider myself, you know, anywhere near in terms of like knowledge and film criticism and how you'd analyze a piece of media. I don't see myself like that.

But to an average person, yes, I know an insane amount. Like the rain man of film and TV. Yeah, so somebody will say something and they'll be like, you know the movie, and they'll name like the wrong movie or the wrong time period it came out or the person in it, and I'll just go they'll be like, you know, the movie and they'll name like the wrong movie or the wrong time period it came out or the person in it and I'll just go, yep, because it's just easy to be going, well, actually, that wasn't Tom Hanks. That was, you know, whatever, you know.

Yeah, which is something I find interesting about you and kind of endearing actually because a lot of people would just correct people all the time. Oh, I still do. Don't get me wrong. I still do it. But, yeah, like why, you know? Yeah.

There's no just to be like, hey, I know slightly more about this thing. Who cares? Let them think whatever. It doesn't matter. It's not hurting anybody, you know? Yeah, yeah, totally. You've said to me before that sometimes that's a curse in a way to just be obsessed with that one thing.

Yeah, it's annoying. Why is it annoying? Because it's not, well, not so much now because for a time it's useless. Like it's not. For like the first 28 years of your life. Pointless. And, you know, Mason, who you know and obviously I do my podcast with, he's like similar in a lot of ways.

We have similar trajectories. Like he did finance and economics and whatever and all these things. He did an economics degree or something like that. And we used to just like catch up and just be like, I guess we're just going to watch every Robocop movie or whatever, but for no reason, just to do it, just because we liked doing it. And then we'd literally like walk around the neighbourhood and just like have discussions about things that we liked

or didn't like and like make each other laugh and whatever, which is why I think, you know, when we started doing the podcast, a lot of people who go back and listen to it and don't because the audio quality is atrocious, they're like, oh, it's like the same from the start, you know, you didn't have to build like a chemistry. It was just kind of automatically there, you know. It was just something you were doing already and then you've turned mics on

and basically started singing down the microphone and it just started. Which is how that episode started. I know, honestly, at the time I'm like, oh, God, I'm going to have to edit this out. That's not a good start. People are going to hate that. Oh, I think it's iconic. Oh, absolutely.

That's why I left it in. I listened back and I'm like, no, I'll leave that at that. Yeah's not a good start. People are going to hate that. Oh, I think it's iconic. Oh, absolutely. That's why I left it in. I listened back and I was like, no, I'll leave that in. Yeah, it's really awesome. Yeah. Also, he probably would have been mad at me if I did it. Yes, correct. No, actually he wouldn't. He wouldn't care, if I'm honest.

Knowing me, so he probably wouldn't care at all. Yeah. I find that really interesting, though, going back to what you said about it being difficult. Why was it difficult, though? Like, why did you think that it'd be something that you loved? Were there times in your life where you felt like other people didn't understand? Yeah, totally. And it was like futile, you know, to like, to think about these things and, you know, enjoy them and whatever. Cause it's, which is also ridiculous because you should enjoy things.

And I've come to realize that since then, even if I I wasn't doing this I'd hope I'd come to a point where I'm like no I'm gonna watch every James Bond movie even the ones I hate I'm gonna do it you know yeah there's nothing wrong with that it's like any kind of hobby but it was this kind of thing of like I guess I should like like sport more or whatever you know and I guess I should you know work at a bank or and all of those things because it just seemed like it consumed a lot of my time and brain space, but for no purpose. And because a lot of people around you, the culture was you follow a footy team and you know all about it and then you go into finance.

Which is fine. Like, and that's great. Yeah. Yeah. If that's what you want to do. But so did you feel a pressure to conform in that way? Not like noticeably, not like people telling, like no one ever sat me down. No, I don't mean someone said, James, listen.

Yeah. I just mean internally. Yes. From a cultural perspective, like you went to an all-boys school. Yeah, yeah. Was that part of the culture there? Probably, yeah, because, I mean, if that school, and it's fine. It's a good school, you know.

It was a middle-class I mean, if that school, and it's fine. It's a good school, you know. It was a middle class, like, private boy school which thought it was better than what it was. It's a pretty shitty school, I guess is what I'm trying to say. No, it's not. It was fine, whatever. But, yeah, that was, and they just kind of breed middle management, you know, not all, but if you went to that Wikipedia page, it's just, like, there's some

sports stars, like people who played AFLs for those people who don't know Australian rules football. And then that's kind of it. Like that's what the page is. And what I'm saying is I should be on that page. So from there you go and do a business degree. Yeah. And then you finish that after an extra year. Extra year because I failed so much. You did fail so much and hated it so much. Then you went and decided to do teaching. Why did you decide to do teaching? Because teaching is good, I think. It's, well, for the most part, and it was something that I was doing like kids camps and there was some Vincent de Paul and you take kids away for a week and you find activities and like craft and flying foxes and whatever and things like that. And I really enjoyed doing that. And I'm like, oh, this is, you can, you can do this.

I could, I could be a teacher. Like I'm not a complete idiot. I feel like I, and I don't like teenagers, but you know, it's fun hanging out with like, you know, kids before they're all, they're all jaded. And that could be something that, you know, could be rewarding. And I wasn't thinking in terms of I'll do this for a bit and then I'll just get out of it and do whatever. That wasn't the plan because if I wasn't doing this, I would definitely still be teaching, like without a doubt. There's no way I wouldn't be doing it.

Do you think it was also because it was closer to that creative self that you had? Yeah, totally, yeah. And it enabled you to tap into that side of yourself that maybe doing finance and business wasn't able to? Yeah, I remember like at business I like drank my way through it for four years and not like wasn't like an addiction or anything like that. It was just like I'm bored and I don't want to do this. And this is fun. If I go out and drink and whatever, that's way, that's way more fun.

And then when I started teaching, I was kind of well past that. And a lot of that just kind of just dropped off and not intentionally. It wasn't conscious of where like, oh, I better start, you know, cleaning up my act or whatever. But it was also like, at that point I was like 21, 22. And I'm like, I just got to get through this now. I should be working. I shouldn't be doing another degree. I've got to get through this and get out. And I did quite well and I also noticed that like my business notes

were very bland and sparse, but in my teaching notes there was a lot of like I used to just like draw in them a lot. And so I just that's what I used to do in lectures and not like a, because I wasn't paying attention because it was just. It was opening a part of yourself and your brain that maybe you'd sort of shut down. Yeah. I kind of have a theory about it too for you that the drinking

and the partying and stuff enabled you to shut off some of that mind palace. Probably, yeah. And all of that interest because it does, it kind of numbs you, right? Yeah. So you don't have to think about all of that interest because it does, it kind of numbs you. Right. So you don't have to think about all of this, that stuff. You can kind of shut off and just charge your way through it a bit. And it also felt like there was, well, at that point there was this inevitability to like, I'm gonna have to work in the city in a bank at some point, you know what I mean?

And I don't want to do that. So I don't want to think about that either. Yeah. And it felt like this like a train was going to hit me. Wow. So I just got to get out as much, let off as much steam as I can before inevitably I meet the girl and have a family and charge into the city in a penguin suit. I didn't have any problem.

Like those parts, great. But the other part, no. And I just think I would have definitely been miserable and a completely different person. Which is where like shows like Office Space and The Office, like Ricky Gervais' The Office really did kind of change your headspace about it too and his podcast as well. Yeah, definitely.

And look, I have other thoughts about Ricky Gervais now, which I won't touch on. He's kind of disappointing of late. But I know you asked me before the show, you're like, what was a formative thing that you watched? And you're like, you know, I couldn't think of anything. I'm like, and you're like, was it like Superman or Star Wars? And I'm like, yeah, I guess.

Like, those are great. But that wasn't a thing where I was like, it didn't make me think outside of things that I enjoyed. And then I saw Office Space and I was like, oh, okay. And I didn't like get it straight away, I guess. It didn't like change my life immediately. Like a lightning bolt. But it was like, oh, this is, and this is real.

Like I remember watching with my dad and he, you know, he worked in an office for a time. He worked for like a big telecommunications company, like a phone book division. And he was great at that. Like don't get me wrong, he loved it. He grew up on a farm and he did this thing. And he was like, yeah, this is like very accurate to what it is.

It's like the type of like spacing you use in a file is wrong or, you know, you miss some stupid memo for some like innocuous, pointless thing and then you have to deal with the ramifications of all of that and you don't get enough pay and you don't get any holidays and all these things. And I'm like, oh, my God. And people don't get any, you don't get enough pay and you don't get any holidays and all these things. And I'm like, oh, my God, and people are just doing this, you know, willingly or not even willingly because you have to, you know, you have to do it because, again, like no shade, you've got to survive.

And if, you know, you've got to yourself survive and sometimes other people like as an extension of you. So that was definitely a point where I'm like, wait a minute, this sucks, right? Like I'm right, it sucks, you know? Yeah, and especially for your personality type I think too. Yeah, and I felt like I was going crazy like not literally but in doing business.

Like I'm sitting there and people are like paying attention and I'm like, this is like bullshit, right? Like we all agree that this is bullshit. Like this doesn't, like what are we doing? It doesn't make any sense. And I'm like, oh, it's just me. Okay, fair enough. And I'm still friends with like some guys who I met there,

you know what I mean? And they're very happy. Like I'm not to. Totally. It wasn't bullshit to them is my point. Yeah. Something that always strikes me about you is I think you have a very healthy self-esteem and I don't mean that in a way like,

again, he's so full of himself. I don't mean that. I mean that you've always seemed to know who you are and like who you are even when who you are is different sometimes to the mainstream. Do you know why that is? I mean I'm pretty mainstream. I talk about the most popular movies in the world. No, James, you're a unique flower.

Thank you. I appreciate that. No, I just mean, you know, you're sitting there in business while everyone else is doing that and you're thinking this is total bullshit and what am I doing here? But it never occurred to you to go, there's something actually wrong with me. It's more like this is bullshit. Oh, no, it was that also. It was like why don't I like this?

Why isn't this appealing? And even when I'd like try and do well in certain things, I'm like I didn't enjoy that. Like I did it and I did better than I thought I would but I still hated it. Yeah. So I guess it was a bit of both. Yeah, but I'm still curious. Like why do you think that you have quite a grounded view on yourself?

I think I was probably raised that way when my parents were. They never pushed me into anything that I didn't want to do. And I never knew this and I never kind of realised it until I was older. And I know you've had conversations with my parents where they could never make me do anything. And I don't remember that. And one of our kids is like that just before you and me. But you couldn't, as a kid, make me do anything. And I don't remember that. And one of our kids is like that just before anyone met. But, like, you can't, you couldn't as a kid make me do anything. You'd have to kind of lead me to it, kind of, you know.

And I think I'm still like that. And you'll even, like, I know you do this to me, like, quite often where you'll, like, corral me into, like, thinking a certain way or, like, in preparation of a thing like there was one time where we had to i had to do i can't remember it was some some zoom meeting with a brand overseas or something and they wanted to speak to like me directly and i didn't know this thing was happening and you woke me up one morning and you're like you've got a call to new york in 10 minutes about this brand i'm like what you're like i didn't tell you because i know it would

have upset you so they you know you just can't be upset you're gonna be on in 10 minutes about this brand. I'm like, what? They're like, I didn't tell you because I know it would have upset you, so you just can't be upset you're going to be on in 10 minutes. I'm like, fuck. I hate you, but you're right. I would have hated knowing this was coming. Fine, I'll do it. God damn it. But then you did it and it was fine.

It was over in like 10 minutes. It sucked. It was terrible. But it was over in like 10 minutes. It was completely over. It was a guy who's like, how's it going? I'm like, great. And he's like, what time is it there? And I'm completely over. Like it was a guy's like, how's it going? I'm like, great. You know, and he's like, what time is it there?

And I'm like, it's morning. And he's like, it's night here. And I'm like, who knew? All right. What are we doing? And then he's like, when you're talking about the brand, just make sure you're not, you know, you're not disparaging of it. Like, okay.

Thanks, man. Great chat. And I got off and I'm like, goddammit. It was a waste of time. But one of the reasons I say I did that for you as well is because I know how much lead up and time you would spend in mental energy being annoyed at me and it was self-preservation because I would have to hear you being like, this fucking thing.

I listen to this fucking guy. And it would be like weeks and weeks of you being like I've got to go to do this 10-minute phone call and I didn't want to deal with any of that so I just sprung it on you. You're right. And you're right. And I hated it but you're right. Don't do it again.

Or do, I don't know. To be fair, I don't do that very often. But I do think that's interesting and, look, from an outsider perspective, I think part of the reason is you're just born with a very strong sense of self. But I also think your parents are wonderful and have raised you in a way that's allowed you to flourish with a very grounded home life that was very safe and secure and predictable. And I can see that in you and in your brothers and I think your parents are wonderful.

They didn't like hit us with like guilt and burden and like financial woes and all of these, you know, kinds of things and the terrible things that have like happened to them and, you know, you find out later and you're like, that happened? Like what the fuck? You know, but they didn't kind of and I'm trying to be this way. Well, I hope I am this way where you don't want the kids like stressing about problems that are not theirs or beyond their control, you know.

Yeah. So like the world might end because of climate change, say hypothetically, but kids don't need to know that right now, you know, because they can't do anything about it. Yeah. Neither can we. Exactly. But I know I think that's something we've consciously decided, right,

to not talk to our kids other than we talk about looking after the planet and how that's our responsibility. But there are certain things I don't think they need to know yet. We didn't discuss the G20 summit, how they threw a coin into a fountain and wished for a better tomorrow. I'm not going to get into it. No, let's not get into it. But, yeah, I do think there's something really beautiful about that

and I think having your parents, having parented you the way they have, I think that's so wonderful and what a gift to have. Yeah. Is there anything that you do when you are feeling low? Like do you ever feel low like at a point where you're like, oh, James, you just bloody suck? You idiot. Yeah, when I'm like, when it's late and I'm tired

and I've just finished doing like an edit, which to be fair, I don't edit that much anymore. And then I'm like, I'm uploading it or whatever and I'm making a thumbnail and putting in the metadata and it's like 2am and I'm like, what am I doing? What am I doing, you know? What is this? And then it's that point where Rob, just like, this is

your job. That's what you're doing. This is how you make money. This is why, you know, at the very least, if you don't enjoy this, this particular part of it, cause you haven't slept properly or whatever, you have to do it. So just do it. Shut up. You know? Yeah. So is that, is it that like cut and dried for you? It's just you just have to do it. You just do it. Yeah. So you're not tortured. Like I'm so freaking tortured about everything.

Yeah, I mean I think I would be because a lot of the stuff I do now I can do because I've been doing it for a while and I have a lot of help now from a bunch of amazing people from around the world, including Collings who edits this. And so that eases like a lot of it for me. But, yeah, it's a job. Like you just get on with it. So I still am curious.

I know we've talked about this before and just made the thing a long time ago, or like five years ago probably. But what happened in your head from the person who was teaching, who like wanted to do other stuff and have creative endeavours and start a YouTube channel but just never really got it off the ground. And I was with you then as well and you were frustrated and annoyed and kind of grouchy but hadn't actually channeled that into anything.

Yeah. What was sort of the reason why you suddenly are able to now be this person that just constantly makes stuff? Like what was the switch? Because there were years there where you never made anything. Yeah. And like I did like bits and pieces or whatever, but yeah. But really?

No, not consistently. Not consistently. Yeah, I don't know. I mean it's just it's slowly become like and it's like it started like one video a week and I did that for six months and then I stopped for like six months or whatever, you know, and then I picked it up again and then we started the podcast and then I started taking clips on the podcast and editing that.

So it was two videos a week and then, you know, and then it kind of grew and whatever and then more people kind of came on board and then we started doing more things together and then it's brands and whatever and all those kinds. So it was like a slow kind of. It was very slow. Yeah, and it's got to the point now where like if I was given all of this now like 10 years ago, I'd be like, what?

No, that's too much. Like I couldn't have done it. I wouldn't have understood, you know, any of it. So it was like it was a very gradual growth. And I also think I benefited from that I had the exact right amount of knowledge for this kind of thing at this exact point in time. Like I knew how to edit a little bit. I had like a pretty solid understanding of pop culture, you know,

all of those things and comics and movies. I'm a little bit funny, I guess. You're very funny. No, I think I'm okay. I think maybe I'm slightly funnier than a very boring person, but compared to like a comedian, I'm not funny. Do you know what I mean? So I had the right amount of things at the right time just as YouTube

was taking off and things were being like an ad revenue and monetization and podcasts were becoming like a bigger thing, you know. So that played a huge part in it. Like I had, I was, not to discount like that I haven't, you know, done work to get here. You've worked your medical Obama. I could have done work at a different point in time and it wouldn't have happened.

No, exactly, yeah. I think people need to acknowledge, and I think you see this in a lot of like billionaires and like psychopaths, they don't acknowledge you know those people those sigma grind set fucking lunatic like tony robbins or the other you know the millions of other those fucking idiots that run around i say that because i think they're disingenuous and they swindle people is not the fact not the work hard thing but you need to acknowledge that it's like a lot of it is luck It's a lot of where you were born and where you are, you know.

It could go either way. And that's like it's also upsetting to know at the same time that it could have gone the other way, you know, at any point. Yeah. You know? But that is part of it. It's a massive part of it. Yeah.

I mean there is that idea, right, that good fortune or success is just the convergence of hard work and timing. And I agree with that completely and I think that's really humble of you to acknowledge that too. But that's not to say that you just wait and then something will happen. No, and that's exactly right. Like you said, you need to be ready for something to happen. And I think you've nailed it too that it's that hard work thing.

I watched you. I watched you work a full-time job and then a full-time job at home for years. That was before kids, but yes. Yeah, I mean, now we do that now. Like there's no way we can. People are like, James is lazy. Where is he? And you're like, he's asleep.

I don't know. Yeah, he's just like, oh, he's playing video games again and he's just like working eight hours into the night while I go off to see friends or something. Yeah, so I guess that's really interesting, isn't it? So that's kind of your takeaway from that, that it's about the work and for you pushing through that barrier of getting yourself started with the creativity was actually just, and you say this to me all the time and I really value it, that it's just doing it. Yeah. And just doing it and

doing it and doing it and doing it and not giving up and not stopping. Because I think it's also dangerous to get to the point, and there are some like churches that are like this, like that are extremely wealthy, where the, and we've been, we were talking about this recently, where the idea is that I deserve this. Like I have this success and I have like insane amounts of wealth. And again, you see, see this in like CEOs and billionaires because they deserve it. That's, it's almost like a divine right. Or not even that I'm a divine, if it's not religious, it's I deserve this because I'm smarter than everybody else. And that's just not true,

I think, for the most part, for most people, you know, or it's both. Yeah, there's hard work and timing and some luck involved. I mean, we've talked about this before and Brené Brown spoke about this on her podcast, Dare to Lead, that there's a lot of research to suggest that, yes, you know, where you were born and the amount of money that you were born into, even your ethnicity can have a massive impact in the trajectory of your life. Yeah. But actually one of the biggest factors of, like, success,

particularly in terms of, like, happiness and contentment with your life, actually begins with having a happy home life. And whatever that looks like. And a loving family, whatever that looks like. But like a loving, stable home life sets you up and it doesn't have to be a wealthy family. It doesn't have to be in a fancy house or in anywhere in particular.

But if you've got that and you've got a connected family and extended family, even with like connected community, that's like a springboard and that, and you can see that. I think some of the people I really admire who I, I would say is successful, not in terms of like, I don't know, Richard Branson or someone that's just got like a huge amount of wealth, but you think secretly are dead inside. You know, but the people that I really admire, like for example, someone like Michelle Obama, right, you think about where she came from and you can see the level of love and care that has gone into her childhood

and then she didn't grow up with a lot but she grew up with a huge amount of culture and sort of parenting that was really well thought out and loving. Information and love. Yeah, yeah, all of that stuff. And you can see that in the person that she becomes and that she has become. I'm reading her memoir. You can really tell that, that she came from parents

who really, really loved her and the community that really, really cared about her. And that gave her so much. And that's, I guess, what I want to pass on to our kids and I think why we both are so lucky. And that's where I think the real luck comes from, right, having people that really care about you. And being able to build that for your kids, I think,

is something that I really wholeheartedly believe in. How do you think parenting has changed you? I think I'm nicer, I think. Like I have more patience, you know. I think because you kind of have to be or you just yell at your kids all the time, I guess. But I find that's not as effective and not the best strategy to get through to them. But, yeah, I think it meant that I'm managing my time better. I think I'm more compassionate towards like other parents, you know, for whatever, for any of their kids' behavior or wherever they're at in school or anything

like that. And I think I saw a little bit of that in teaching. But now I see like teachers who have kids and also teach and I'm like, that's impossible. How could you even? You're a goddamn hero. How could you do that? That's not even, what do you mean? That doesn't even make any sense. So, yeah, I think it's just, I think it's, yeah, I don't like,

I try not to like judge, I guess, other parents because it's fucking, it's hard, man. And you've got to work, you know. I'm worried about like everything else that's going on in the world that's affecting you. I think that's part of it. That's made you kinder. I think so. Maybe. Yeah? I don't know. I think so. I think that's part of it. That's made you kinder. I think so, maybe.

Yeah? I don't know. I think so. Not worse, I think. It's made you more understanding. Yeah. Yeah. I think so, yeah.

I think so too. I think it has, absolutely. What have been the things that have challenged you the most about being a parent? Sleep, I would say, is a huge part of it. And, like, having kids who you know have been sick is like very as you are aware is very emotionally taxing as well but obviously more so on them obviously but you know what i mean and you're trying to do the best things but

you don't know because it's weird because every time your kid whatever age your kid is uh especially the first one i guess you've you've never had a kid that age before and that's going to keep happening your entire life. It's like, I've never had a 16-year-old before, you know. I don't know. What do you do with a 16-year-old? I don't know. And also even if you have other kids, every kid is different, you know,

because as I mentioned, my parents kind of parented me like slightly differently than my brothers, you know, which is pretty impressive, quite frankly. Yeah. Yeah. So I think, yeah, that's a huge challenge I think, yeah. Yeah, to be able to adapt every time at every stage. What was it like for you when our little person was sick in hospital? Actually, both of them have had different health challenges

and they're both fine now. They're both fine now, yeah. I feel like I always need to put that caveat at the end. Yeah, and we're very lucky because there are people and they weren't, you know, on the scale of things that happen to families and kids. We're, you know, on the very mile end. We just sort of had a toe in the water of what it must be like.

Yeah. And it was hard enough for us. So I just send so much love out there to anyone who is taking kids into hospital visit after hospital visit and all of those things. What was it like for you? It was very harrowing and, like, grim and, like, I don't even know what's happening. And you're really good at this and I actually feel better, like,

being married to you because you're really good at, like, actually feel better like being married to you because you're really good at like straight shooting like medical people because you've had a bit of experience with that in your life so you don't there's no bullshit with you you just like just tell me what's up and then be like and then if a person's like well i think and you're i think it's this and you're like next person you're like you don't have any new information for me bring me somebody else you, and I admire that so much. And I like to think I've like taken on a bit of that, but you're so good at that, just being like you're irrelevant, next person who can help me.

And not in like, do you know what I mean? But it's like you're just wasting time. Can we just go to them? And because of you seeing you do that, you are the reason that like a lot of these problems were fixed because you waded through you know crap and went up against people because you knew something was wrong and you were right when people when everyone was telling us and you that you know there was nothing wrong and you were right at some you know and i thought that was just very impressive yeah because you think that they

know but they don't know and not that people aren't good at their jobs. That's not what I'm saying, that like the medical profession sucks or whatever and that's not what I'm saying. No, there's like incredible doctors and nurses and I think they do an amazing job but they're also people. Yeah, and they're seeing a million people. Yeah, and the hospital systems can be really overwhelmed. Everyone's kind of understaffed a lot of the time.

And you do have to go in to advocate. Definitely. For your child or for your own health as well. And the other advantage is like we had enough money to be like we're going to, you know, we're going to see the people, you know, the best people to see for this. Yeah, and we also live in Australia where we've got an incredible Medicare system which means that our hospital visits were all free and we could take our child in at any time,

at any point in the night, whenever, and not pay thousands of dollars. It would be completely free. So, yeah, we are also looking to live here. It seemed like a point where things just like kept happening. Like there was one point our son was hospitalized for a week with the flu and then I'm like, who gets hospitalized for the flu? What do you mean? Like, you know, you kind of hear about it, but you're like, that's not a thing.

You know? You stay home and you eat chicken soup and whatever. You watch TV. But yeah, and that was, you know, terrifying and kind of sort of related to some health problems, but it was like a new thing. And it's like, when is this going to stop? You know? And the answer is never.

There's always something going on. That's so true. And with that, what do you do to keep your equilibrium when life gets hard? Because God knows this year particularly and last year, the last two years, we've been living through constant lockdowns, some of the strictest lockdowns in the world, which means we've been homeschooling with two kids. What have you done? Well, I think I was looking at parenting kind of wrong initially

and I may have passed this advice on to people in my life, which is wrong, where like it's like harrowing and changes your life and you should really think about it and all these kinds of things. And that's not to say I ever regretted having kids, but that was not the case. But I just kind of let people know that like, it's serious and it's stressful and it's exhausting and thankless and you want to die every day. I said to my friend. Oh my gosh.

But what I've also found is that it's great. Like it's very fun and rewarding. And especially as they get older and especially when they're doing well, like it's so awesome to see them do well and like interact with you. Like today with our daughter, who's like one and a half, she was like going through all the cupboards and she was walking around with a tin of cocoa, just like just walking around the house with this. And I'm like, oh, can you just put that in the cupboard and back in the cupboard? And she put it back and I'm like, oh, and can you just close that?

And she closed it. And I'm like, oh my God, I didn't know she could do that. She's a genius. Because they can understand more than you think. They just can't, you know, really talk. And it's in really, it's rewarding. And it doesn't, that doesn't sound like much, but when you've invested so much time and effort into this person and you want them to succeed, it's incredible. And I think I haven't conveyed that enough to people I know in my personal life and they probably don't believe me now

because what I would also say is like people will tell you it will change your life and it's the best thing that will ever happen to you and blah, blah, blah. But just I'm telling you it's not necessarily that all the time and people are tricking you because they want you to be miserable and they're like, good advice. And I'm like, I think that's good advice. But I don't think that is necessarily good advice,

but now those people don't believe me because I'm like, they're like, that's what you said, people say this. And I'm like, I know, but I'm telling the truth this time. And I think also part of it is that we had never done it before and I think that because of it is that we had never done it before. And I think that because of our son's particular health complications, it was very challenging and we loved him to pieces, which is one of the hardest parts about that. It didn't change any of that at all. No, no. And we loved being his parents, absolutely adore being his parent now.

But because of that, I think it was a bit like comparing if someone had a baby with no health complications, it's a bit like comparing like a lovely stroll to a marathon, you know, and even though, and maybe you might be strolling and you'd be strolling for miles and miles and miles and you do get tired. Just to get to the same spot that somebody's already at. Yeah. But for us, it was a marathon because of the additional complications. Oh, yeah, yeah, totally. You know, it was so much harder. And so I think but we didn't have anything to compare it to.

No, and a lot of our friends also didn't have kids. No, so they were watching us do it and thinking, man, that looks bloody awful. And look, parenting is really challenging regardless of what circumstances you're in. The worst thing you'll ever do. Yeah. But it does really, I know exactly what you mean.

As they get older, it's just, it's like my mum always said, it's like unwrapping a present. Yeah, that's a great way to put it. And it just, you just keep unwrapping. And I like spending time with them as well, which is good, I think. Right? Yeah, it's great you know you pick them up for school and they run up and i know that that also doesn't last forever

and it's going to be heartbreaking as they slowly pull away from you but i love all that i think it's really cool and like hearing about their day and or you tell me things that you did with our daughter because obviously she can't talk but she can close cupboards uh that's fun to be like you know she did this thing or whatever and i I'm like, that's really cool. Like for other kids, it's like who cares. I know. And that's the – That's not even true though I think. If somebody, you know, tells me a thing, I'm like, that's great.

That's legit great. Like I'm genuinely happy for you. You know, which at a time I'd be like, who gives a shit? I don't care. I think it depends on the time in your life too, doesn't it? Because when I was younger in my 20s, sometimes I had colleagues who would have kids and just show me photos and I'd be like, yeah, right, I want to go to the pub.

I'll ask kids to see photos, sorry, parents to see photos. Like I caught up with a guy I'd seen in like two years who had a kid, who knew, in between. I'm like, show me a photo. And it wasn't like, okay, show me a photo. It was like, I want to see. I want to, you know. Yeah, because you suddenly get it, I think.

That little person in that photo is their whole world really and I think that's something that changed for me drastically that what is important has to be completely like reprioritised or whatever. Is that the word? Prioritised differently. Your whole world is like shaken up in that way and you suddenly really understand why your parents when you went to a party would still be awake at 3 o'clock in the morning when you came home.

And you're rolling your eyes and they're there, you know, and you're 16. I'm fine or whatever. Yeah, stop asking me, stop talking to me, Mum. And you just realize just that, you know. Because I've invested a lot of time in you. Yeah, all those nights. Exactly.

So I was going to ask you your best parenting hacks, but I think one of the things you just said about the fact that kids when they're small understand so much more than you think they do, I think that's really valuable. Yeah, you can talk to them. Yeah, and I think that actually can really alleviate some of, and it doesn't stop all tantrums by any means, but it can alleviate some of them because I think that actually can really alleviate some of and doesn't stop all tantrums by any means, but it can alleviate some of them because I think just

because they can't talk back to you, you can be blown away by how much a one-year-old can understand you. If they're frustrated, you can explain what's going on. Not always, but you know. Not always, but often. And it can actually change things because if you were not able to speak back to someone but you can understand what's going on around you and someone just picks you up and plonks you somewhere

and you have no idea why. It's confusing and annoying. Yeah, yeah, especially with someone like you. Yes. I hated being a kid. Yeah, exactly. I know you did. Oh, God.

So I wanted to ask you too, have you changed your sort of image of what a man should be from when you were a kid? Probably, yeah. I mean I don't think I've ever been kind of like I'm going to be the cool, tough, whatever guy, you know what I mean? Footy dude. Maybe it's because I'm not like a giant guy. So like that wasn't really an option for me because I just get my head kicked in.

But, yeah, no, I think so. I've definitely like softened more, but I've never been like a blokey bloke kind of manly man kind of guy. And I also think those guys like suck a lot of the time because it's bravado. Like there's a difference between like I think you can be like that and it's just like a – and you can still be kind and confident and all those things but there are some people who like do that

and it's like this is just like pantomime. This is. Yeah. You're doing a skit or something. What is this? I think sometimes you meet some guys like that and you can. It's embarrassing. No.

You can sometimes just briefly get glimpses of this really scared kid in like a 35-year-old, 40-year-old man. Totally. Who's wearing a suit and spouting off about how great he is at finance or something. Yeah. But in amongst that you see this scared boy who isn't sure of his own self and to do that he's like added all these props

on top of him. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, it's like a performance. Like totally not. Yeah, I don't know. I mean and that's just not. I'm sure we all do it because we all have like a persona and whatever. Yeah, totally.

Actually, that's something else I wanted to ask you about. I only recently discovered, you said it to me the other day, that I'm just who I am in every situation. Did I? I remember this. me the other day that I'm just who I am in every situation. And it blew my mind because up until I was 35, it hadn't really occurred to me that people pretend to be different in different situations. Yeah, no, that's right. I did say that. Yeah. That's something I really like about you. And I think, and I didn't know you when you were a kid, but I think you were

always like that because you used to. Because I had no friends? No, but you had some friends, I'd imagine, at some point. But, like, you wouldn't understand, like, why people were, like, mean to each other or, like, they'd turn to each other or say something nice to you and then they'd say something or be nice to someone and then say something terrible behind your back. And I 100% do that, like, all the time.

But, yeah, I think that's really admirable where you were just like, that's confusing. Why would you be like that? And I think like your enthusiasm for things is not like not fake and where you are here and where you are with like friends and where you are with people you meet and different like things. You just are you, you know. That's cool because being yourself is cool, kids.

Thanks, mate. I'll tell you that much. It is. It is. Stay in school, kids, and be yourself. Yeah, I know. I just found that really interesting when you said that to me and kind of a little embarrassing that it had taken me 35 years

to realise that that was. No, I think you were just doing it and that's okay. Yeah. That's good. I know because I just find I need to be able to say exactly what I need to say and how I'm feeling in it every minute of the day. And I find it strange that people don't like to talk about how they feel. Even though I know obviously everyone is different and also it's probably.

You do find that frustrating. I do. You catch up with someone and you're like you're clearly having some kind of emotional experience here. But they're just like, I'm fine. I'm great. Everything's probably. You do find that frustrating. I do. You catch up with someone and you're like you're clearly having some kind of emotional experience here but they're just like, I'm fine, I'm great and everything's great and I love everything. And you're like, I don't think this person loves everything actually. This person's about to have broken off. Yeah, exactly.

And what I find really frustrating about it. Not that you want them to like shatter in front of you. But what I find frustrating about it and also frustrating sometimes about my personality is that I can't just accept that face value of what they're saying to me because I can tell there's something else going on. Whatever it is, you want it to be real. Yeah, real and I want them to tell me.

Not that they're miserable but like just. No, tell me what's really going on. Yeah. But then I've come to understand that people don't always just want to go, they just don't want to go there. No, they want to catch up and just like shoot the shit about whatever. And not talk about like their deep, dark emotional turmoil. And that's totally fine and I have to be okay with that

because you're all like that. Like I can tell you're not someone that likes to just sit around and go, oh, Claire, I need to tell you all about my deep, dark emotional. I have so many emotions right now. I have so many feelings. I do have a lot of feelings, I tell you that much. I'm a bloody ocean over here, man, I tell you all about my deep, dark emotions. I have so many emotions right now. I have so many feelings. I do have a lot of feelings, I tell you that much. I'm a bloody ocean over here, man, I tell you that much. Yeah, like do you just not really like talking about feelings that much?

No, I just don't feel it's like – Interesting. No, yeah, that's probably part of it. But I don't feel the need to like – it doesn't help me process stuff always. It probably does actually. But, yeah, I think I just – and this is another thing that, you know, my parents I think have said to you is that I never really like expressed. Anything.

Yeah, just like. Or tell them anything about your life. What is he doing? What is this guy up to? Yeah. What's he going? What's he up to? I still find that.

Your mum still finds that too. You never tell me anything. Yeah. I can tell you things. What are you talking about? No. But it's not conscious. It's not like this is a secret and I'm not going to tell anybody

except for my job for like the first five years. But, yeah. Yeah, well, yeah, you never told anyone about what you were doing. They knew. Yeah, they did eventually. But, yeah, that is something I've noticed about you. They knew from the start. Oh, yes, that's true.

They did, as in your parents. But, yeah, that is something about you that you often have a lot of stuff going on but you don't talk about it. Why is that? I think everybody is like a lot of people like that, aren't they? They're like thinking about stuff and whatever. Yeah, I know. So why, though?

Why are you like that specifically? I don't know. It's just the way I am, I guess. Like I think things through and then I do a thing and it might be like, oh, I used to be aware of this like spontaneously, but like I probably didn't. I probably thought about it for a while and it's just kind of how I process things. Like one of my friends, like he had a particularly bad day and he got home and he was like, just to decompress, I like took my chair and I put it in front of a wall and I sat in the chair and I just stared at the wall for an hour. I'm like, what? What do you mean? What are you thinking about? He's like, I don't know. I was just kind the chair and I just stared at the wall for an hour. I'm like, what?

What do you mean? What are you thinking about? He's like, I don't know. I was just kind of blank and I just stared at the wall. That's some serial killer shit. I don't even know what to say to that. Anyway, my point is everybody's different. Everybody processes things differently, yeah.

So how do you process things? I just think about it and I just kind of go over my head. Also I listen to a lot of stuff. Like I'll just have like a head for one earphone in and I'll just be listening to stuff all day and whatever. Maybe that's also to like stop me to think about stuff as well, you know. Like stop your thoughts racing. Yeah. But it's also good because then often I'll find like when I don't listen

to anything, that's when ideas come into your brain because you're not listening to anything that you can think. Completely. I think that's some great advice. I do that now. I go for a walk or I go for a run without my phone. Yeah. And it's so valuable.

And the first 10 minutes you think, I can't possibly do this. What the hell is this? This is boring. But it's amazing how quickly everything starts to rush in and you get absorbed in your own thoughts and you do start to, things become clearer to you about what you want to do next when we're not just crowding our heads full of just like other people's thoughts and other people talking at us.

I say as we record a podcast. Totally. And if you're listening to this, you should stop and just have a good look at yourself, man. I'll tell you that much. Yeah, so how are you feeling now that we're out of lockdown? Good. Very good, actually, I think.

Am I? I don't know. Great. Seeing people again and, like, freedom and all of those things. And I'm also, like, annoyed when people message me and they're like, how's communism, whatever, and I'm like, shut up, shut up. And, look, I know it was like a lot of it was overreaching and not ideal and bullshit or whatever,

but I'm also grateful that everybody is alive and that's good, you know, and things are picking up again. I know there will be businesses that don't recover from this and, you know, and a lot that do I think as well but no, good actually and safer than what we were before. Do you think you have any lasting sort of memories from it? Like there's something that you'll carry from this time, like in 20 years?

Yeah, probably just like the sameness of it I guess, like a lot of that, you know. Like I'm a person who spends a lot of time at home anyway, but just the same stuff, you know, again and again. But I also think the stuff I'll carry with us is, uh, with, I guess us, um, cause we're, we're in the same house. Um, we got to see, I got to, our son was home for like a lot of the year and we got to like homeschool him, which is also, you know, difficult, but you didn't, we saw him more like he goes for five days of the week, you know, and last year, you know, when he was in kinder, he only did like two or three days.

So we got to spend like more time with him. And I feel that's also like a blessing that we got to, we got to see more of that. That's cool. I think. It is cool. But also we had the advantage of like, I would work at night, you know, so I could do that. Like if I was working full time, I would have been teaching over Zoom and then, you know, or in a bank, I don't know. And I wouldn't have experienced any of that. It would have been the

opposite. It would have been very frustrating, you know? And it's still like, it totally still was, but not because of him, you know, because that was the situation, you know. Yeah. So with that I feel kind of I'm happy about that, you know. And there is part of me that's kind of sad that, you know, that is going away but it's also way better for everybody really, you know. He gets to spend time with his friends and learn from like an actual teacher and not some fucking burnout. Yeah.

And see his friends and all that and stuff, you know, that's cool. Yeah, absolutely. The burnout was you, by the way, not me. What do you think stopped us from killing each other during this time? Because it's a lot of time to spend with another person. Like kids aside. I think we get along, which is a big part of it, and you kind of give me space when, like, I need to,

which I know you don't necessarily love, like, a lot of the time. You know, like it's the end of the day and I'm just like, I'm out, and I'll just, like, go into the studio. I'm just like, I'm not doing anything. I'll just go to the studio and, wow, I'm working really. That's actually something that I've learned over the years and I think when I talk to friends about relationships, this is something that I would say.

I've learned that you don't follow, like it depends on obviously who your partner is and what they're like and this is a stereotype, but for you, and I think this does work for a few straight white men, maybe just straight men, I don't know, that you don't, if someone's mad or done for the day or just, you know, you let them go into their space, wherever that space is, the man cave, one of the better words. Leave us alone.

Yeah, seriously, you leave them alone because then what happens is that person, and I think this could just be personality types in a relationship, like if you've got an introvert and extrovert like we do in this house, you just leave them alone because what happens then is they come and find you. Yeah. But if you follow them into their own space, into their cave or into their room or into their head, wherever they're going,

if you just keep following them around, all it does is cause more anger and they start yelling at you. Yeah, yeah. And I think I've learned that you needing space and needing to go is not about me. Absolutely not, yeah. And when we were early in our relationship, I thought it was about me. Yeah.

But it's not about me. Maybe sometimes it is. But mostly it's not about me. It's about you needing that time to be left alone. I think also a lot of time introverts use that excuse to be an arsehole. So I'm also like you could be kinder, you know what I mean, and do stuff together. That's okay too because I like hanging out with you.

Yeah. We hang out literally every day. Every day. And that's what I'm saying I think that often by leaving you to go and knowing that you've got that space that you have, when I do ask you to come and do something, you definitely will want to or you'll just come and find me and we'll do something together because it's almost like you also have the option of knowing

that you have that time and space when you need it. Yeah, and I think we're in a unique situation because we've got a lot of freedoms that a lot of other people don't have. I'm not talking about the country, I'm talking about us. Yeah, because of our job and the way that we work, yeah. Yeah, a lot of flexibility, which makes a huge difference. So, you know, we're not often working at the same time, you know, and even though we do work for the same thing and we're doing

this, you know, we do different things, you know, and we're not working on often on the same project at the same time, except for our podcast, Suggestible, which you can now vote for at the Australian Podcasting Awards, which I'm trying to skew. Correct. Yeah. Yeah, you're right. And I do, I think about that a lot every day, how lucky we are to have that flexibility. Again, like I don't know how and I guess I just would have because we both would have probably taught and then come home and then you spend time together

and there's kids and whatever and then like I don't know how. I think we would have gone into different fields. Like I think I might have gone into consulting or something like that or lecturing or something like that or lecturing or doing something like that. Like I would have gone back to uni and done some alternate study because I just couldn't, I don't think we could both be working in a school, in a classroom. I think classroom teachers are just complete legends and it's a really, really, no, but it's a really difficult job and it's a wonderful job but it's all consuming and I would find it really hard.

I'd also be a really different teacher now, I think. Yeah, me too. Yeah. Worse probably. Definitely. On that note, I want to ask you one more question before we finish. What do you think happens when we die? When we die?

What is this? The end of Willosophy? Did they do that in Willosophy? Probably. I'm just curious. I want to know. Or is it the end of the Pete Holmes thing? No, I think it's Pete Holmes because I think Willosophy

asks for your life philosophy. Oh, that's true. Of course. They ask you for your own personal Willosophy on Willosophy. I, this is boring. I don't know. I don't know who i don't know and i think it's like frustrating to me when people say that they know on any spectrum you know i'm talking about i find like atheists

really arrogant and annoying where they're like there's definitely nothing and this is all that matters and whatever and maybe and then but you don't know i mean mean, you know, there could be like just an infinite blackness and it's like before you were born and then there's nothing. You just don't exist. Or maybe, you know, I know like how you said you like the idea that you're energy like, you know, because everything is made up of energy. Energy. It goes somewhere for some reason.

But you summarised my whole very deep philosophical belief. I hate that one though because it's like the idea of me, like I would love the idea of an afterlife, incredible. I'd also love the idea of another go, you know. Yeah. That'd be cool. Depending what you were doing actually. It could be really awful.

But no, that idea that like your energy goes somewhere, I'm like pointless, who cares because you don't have like your consciousness. So, you know, whatever, you know. That's fine. Yes, my energy shoots off somewhere. Great. So you're leaning into the mystery of it all.

And it's, you know, and I know people have had, you know, said they've had experiences and they have faith and whatever or they've died on the operating table and there was nothing and all of those things and people have seen ghosts or whatever and say they have, you know. That's not to discredit any of that and what anybody thinks, but for me the answer is I don't. I don't know.

And I still don't think anybody knows. Oh, no. No one knows for sure. That's the mystery of it all. I just have to wait and see, James. Yeah. I've kind of let it go as well in terms of like what happens because it's kind of infuriating, you know, to be like,

well, if there's nothing, I want to know that. I want to be prepared if there's nothing, you know. Yeah. But, you know, you can't. But that's life though, right?'s nothing, I want to know that. I want to be prepared if there's nothing, you know. Yeah. But, you know, you can't. But that's life though, right? Yeah. You have to just let go sometimes I think. What would be your number one advice talking to our kids

who are going to be grownups one day? What would be your advice to them for just surviving life? Just getting through. Getting through. There's this quote from the movie Cinderella, the reboot from 2015, the live-action reboot. It's the best live-action remake that Disney have ever made. And as Cinderella's mother is dying, played by Hayley Atwell,

who later became Captain Britain, her own version of Captain America, it's about, what is it, it courage I can't remember the exact quote but it's like a combination of like courage and kindness and I think that's like that's kind of at the core I think that's a really great philosophy you know take chances be brave but you don't have to be an asshole

in doing so and I don't always you know get that right I'm could be quite mean and rude to people often often online. I try not to, but sometimes I can't help myself. And, yeah, I think that's great. I think that's really, really cool. Because courage can also mean it's not necessarily like blind bravery.

It's like trying something, you know what I mean? It's putting in the effort, something, backing yourself, you know, to achieve something, you know what I mean, that's putting in the effort, something, backing yourself, you know, to achieve something, you know. It's not just step into a bar fight or whatever. You know what I'm talking about? Yeah, I know. It can mean anything, you know. Yeah.

No, I love that too. I know. I often think about that Patton Oswald quote, it's chaos be kind. And I think that that is such a way of describing life, right, that at the end of the day it's going to take balls or ovaries. It's going to take courage. Yeah. But you have to, because it is kind of chaos and anything can happen.

Yep. You know, a pandemic can hit, but if you're kind while you're going through it and you're also brave, then you can face it. And also bravery means, and I think this is important, it's not like that you are afraid, you know, and you do it anyway. I think that's because otherwise you're not being brave, you're just doing a thing that, you know. That you're not scared.

You're confident that you can absolutely do it. Yeah, exactly. I say that to our son and our daughter all the time. Yeah. Yeah, and I think Brene Brown talks about that too, that, yeah, it's about being scared and doing it anyway and challenging yourself and stepping outside. And look, if I'm honest, I probably do need to challenge myself

like more in the area of the things that I do. I just do not have the apps, like the brain capacity at the moment to do the take on stuff, you know, to do that. But you will. Yeah, maybe. And I think it's. Also, this is fine. I'm happy with this.

I also think, though, for parents of little kids, and we were saying we just went away over the weekend together, which is just the first time in like two years. It was amazing. And we were talking about how when your parents, your kids are really little, so you're a parent of like little, little kids, you do need to take, because it's so physically demanding and I know that there are massive demands for teenagers, you know, when you have teenagers too,

but I think it's so physically demanding when they're little. You can't run it more than about 40%. And because we've made the choice that we want to be around a lot with our kids and everyone makes different choices for their family. But for us, we're lucky enough to be able to make that choice. Yeah. But it means that we're both having to maybe not do all the things we would want to be doing yet in our careers.

But that doesn't mean that that isn't in our future. It just means that for now we're in a bit of a, you know, holding pattern. Absolutely. But also I'm very happy doing honestly like the things that I'm currently doing. Yeah, me too. Yeah, exactly. It's fun.

Yeah, and that's the thing right at the end of the day. Absolutely. All right. Thank you so much. Thank you. Also keep fit if you can. There's another thing I guess. I was going to ask you about exercise.

I feel like you say that all the time. That's fine. But that's genuinely a massive thing, right? Yeah. But again, it's a luxury that like we have because I can go to the gym at like 10 o'clock in the morning, you know, and I don't have to do it on my lunch break or not at all. I just think move your body.

Yeah. And I think in whatever situation that is, if that's at a gym, if that's you going for a walk, if that's climbing the stairs at work or whatever it is, I think that moving your body, there isn't much in my life that isn't helped or alleviated a little by moving your body. You see that, right? It's a tiny bubble.

Yeah, super tiny. Where did that come from? I don't know. One of us may be spattered into the air. Now it's is floating. That's weird. Anyway, so. See, it's chaos.

It is. It's chaos. Be kind, James. You never know. There's a spider in it. No. There's an alien, tiny alien. Anyway, I just think it doesn't mean it'll fix everything, but I don't think there has been a problem I've had in my life

that hasn't at least felt a little bit easier if I've moved my body. Yeah. Gone for a walk, put on some music, done some dancing. I don't know, gone to the gym, gone for a swim. Whatever it is. Don't you think? I completely agree. Yeah.

Even though I don't want to do it. Yeah, ever. Ever, yeah. All right. Thank you so much. Thank you. Sorry, your family group chat is just going off while we're doing this. Everyone's ears.

Good Lord. We're all just going to mute. I hope they hear this. Spend my whole life. No, just mute it for an hour. I'm just going to spend half my life replying to people on WhatsApp. No, you're wrong. Anyway.

Okay. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me and congratulations on a wonderful season. There's some terrific episodes. I still haven't listened to the Deep episode. Sandeep Varma. Sandeep, yeah. So great.

He's amazing. Yeah. He's a guy that we both know. As a good friend from a long time ago. Yeah, and he talks about being a man and particularly being a South Asian man and the cultural expectations on him and about running his startup, Asari Collective, which is also really amazing. And he talks about writing and creativity and karma and, yeah.

There's so many good episodes that people could check out in the back catalogue. Thank you very much. All right. Excellent. Okay, that's it. Thanks for having me. Thanks for – we're just going, fine, come on, geez.

No. Let's do this. Thank you very much. And this has been Successful Podcast. No, it hasn't. 2020. Oh, yeah, it's not. No, it's not.

That's the other one we do. Successful Podcast is a podcast we do together. It comes out every Thursday. It's much meaner. It's much meaner. We yell a lot and it's just recommendations to watch, read and listen to. On this show, you have heard Claire Chanty and the wonderful James Clement, who is also Mr. Sunday Movies.

And you can find Mr. Sunday Movies at his YouTube channel, Mr. Sunday Movies, or on the Weekly Planet, his podcast with Nicholas Mason, where they talk comics and movies and TV shows. That's right. And it comes out on the weekends. And, yeah, you can find more from me. It comes out on Monday, but yes.

Yeah, well, you know, Mondays, I know. And for more from me, you can go to Claire20.com, where I have a newsletter you can sign up for and suggestive podcasts as well as taunts, and there's a whole lot of episodes you can scroll back in the feed and listen to, as you suggested. As always, thank you so much to Royal Collings for editing this week's episode. And I'll see you on the flip side for season two of Tots.

That's very exciting. I know. 2022. Who knew? 2020 doesn't even sound like a real year. I know. 2022. Ridiculous.

Ridiculous. I know. Okay. Bye. Bye. We're handshaking. We're handshaking. We're handshaking. Over the recording machine.