TONTS. - Soulful Seeds with Zahra Biabani

Episode Date: April 4, 2022

My guest today is Zahra Biabani from Soulful Seeds. Zahra is a climate activist and influencer. I found her through the Suggestible podcast community and immediately resonated so much with her work. Her instagram and TikTok accounts are called Soulful Seeds and her message is all about figuring out how to live with the planet in mind. No small ask. Zahra is a bloody good dancer and each video she makes is her rocking out some sweet moves while sharing the latest climate research. It really helps as some of this stuff is really hard to read and the way she shares it makes you not feel completely hopeless. She also shares weekly earth wins which I think are my favourite parts of her content. Zahra is also an activist against modern day slavery a topic I quickly realised I knew nothing about until I started speaking to Zahra and listening to her story and the story she shared from the lived experience of a friend in her home town. We look at the intersection of trafficking and climate justice through one of her favourite movies Slumdog Millionaire. Zahra has just graduated from the Vanderbilt University studying Environmental Sociology and minoring in Earth and Environmental Sciences and Human and Organizational Development, with a focus on Community Development.Tucked away in our backyard studio just before Christmas I had a late night conversation with Zahra that changed my perspective on a lot of things I thought I understood. For more from Zahra you can head to @soulful_seeds on instagram or her blog www.soulfulseedsblog.com/links/For more from Claire you can head to www.clairetonti.com or @clairetonti on instagram You can email the show through [e-mail] credits:Editing - RAW Collings and Claire TontiTheme music - Avocado Junkie and Alice in Winter Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Just a warning, this episode does contain content around the climate crisis and also we do discuss themes of trafficking that may be distressing for some listeners. So if this is you, just be mindful, go gently and also if you have little ears around, it might be a good idea to pop some headphones in. Okay, on with the episode. Hello, welcome to Taunts, a podcast of in-depth interviews about emotions and the way they shape our lives. I'm your host as always, Claire Tonti, and I'm really glad you're here for season two.

Each week I speak to writers, activists, experts, thinkers, and deeply feeling humans about their stories. Big feelings, big conversations. That's me. And I wonder if that's you as well. Welcome. Welcome to your place. Okay. The big feels are coming today from my guest, Zara Biabani. Zara is a climate activist

and influencer. I found her through the Suggestible Podcast community and immediately loved what she does. Her Instagram and TikTok accounts are called Soulful Seeds, and her message is all about figuring out how to live with the planet in mind. No small ask, I know. And I can feel some people when I bring up this kind of stuff just immediately switching off because I feel like that too. It's too big and too scary and too hard and too complicated sometimes for us to handle while we're trying to just bloody get some washing done and, you know, find matching socks and get out of the house on time.

But Zara does it in a way that is kind of manageable and also really clear. And I think this is precisely the time where we need to look this kind of stuff square in the face. I'll tell you what I mean. Zara is a really, really good dancer. And each of her videos on Instagram and TikTok has her doing some really sweet moves while also sharing the current research around climate change and also environmental justice and sustainability and modern day slavery as well. And I'll get to that in a minute. She also has this really wonderful section every week where she shares the earth winds. So the stuff that people are actually doing to help the planet and the stuff that is really, I think, going to

change, hopefully, the trajectory of the way things are going. And that I know I look forward to because it gives me some hope about all of this stuff because there are solutions out there. It's just that we have to lean towards them. And there are so many people working so hard, especially young people in this space, just like Zara. She's really an incredible woman. So I said I'd talk to you again about modern day slavery, a topic I quickly realised I knew nothing about until I started speaking to Zara and listening to the story she shares from a classmate of hers she grew up with, and also from one of her favorite movies, Slumdog Millionaire. Now, you'll hear in the interview that I think we're going to be talking about Slumdog Millionaire

as a really romantic, fun movie set in India. And instead, Zara completely changes my perspective of that movie on its head. And the lens that she looks at it through is really, really interesting. And it's kind of an inspiration for why she does the kind of work she does, or one of the many inspirations, I should say. So a little bit more about Zahra Biyobani. She's graduated from the Vanderbilt University, studying environmental sociology, minoring in earth and environmental sciences and human and organisational development with a focus on community development. Goodness me, how much have we got to learn from her?

So tucked away in our backyard studio just before Christmas, I had a really late night conversation with Zara that changed my perspective on so many things, as I said, so many things that I thought I understood and I've learnt so much more. So I hope you learn just as much from her here. Here she is, Zara Biabani on Toms. Zara, thank you so much for joining me. How are you going? Yes, thank you for having me, Claire. I am doing really well. I'm just having a little break from school and not so much work, but getting to spend time with my family for this holiday week. So very thankful for that. Yeah, that's awesome. So are you in Tennessee? Is that

where your family is? So I'm kind of all over the place at the moment. I am graduating university in Nashville, Tennessee. So I will be leaving Tennessee mid-December and my family is based in Houston, Texas. So I'll be going there for a few months, really actually only one month, and then I'll be traveling for work and then I don't really know where I'll be. So I kind of don't really have a location that is mine. Like a fixed address yet. Oh, you're in that kind of amazing space where you've graduated and you're thinking about where you're going next have you got a job lined up or do you know the direction yet of what you want to do yeah so not a traditional job um I am going to keep working and and Soulful Seeds has been a really huge blessing so So that's kind of my career is pursuing that.

I have a startup called In The Loop. So that is a rental clothing subscription service for sustainable and ethical fashion. So I'm also going full-fledged on that and just kind of seeing where that takes me. But sustaining myself through Soulful Seeds. Which is incredible and so exciting. And that's how I found you,

actually. One of the listeners of another show I do, Suggestible, sent me a link to you and said, you have to meet Zara. She's just doing the most incredible stuff. So I wanted to ask you first up where your passion for environmental and social inequality began. Yeah. wonderful question. I really think I think it started with social inequality. My parents took me traveling to, I guess, unconventional places when I was younger. I know I was like in elementary school and all my friends were going to Disney World and I really wanted to go there. But my parents were like, no, let's go to Zambia. And my mom grew up in Africa, in a few different countries. And she's always loved traveling. So getting to go to these places that were very much outside of my bubble when I was younger, I think was really formative, maybe not necessarily in the moment. But I think

later on in life, I was definitely more accustomed to looking outside of my immediate circle and the privilege that I've, you know, kind of grew up with and think through environmental science class in high school, and I learned about, you know, the fundamentals of climate science. And that kind of took off once I would say 2014-ish. I kind of just realized how big of a problem that we humans, as humans, are creating and how it's exciting at the same time as it is scary because we as humans are the only ones that can stop it. So it seemed like, to me, a problem that was very much fixable because we caused it. So that's kind of how I got into that. And then I eventually, I guess maybe a few years later, began to see the intersections between the social inequalities and environmental issues and how in order to really fix the environmental issues and also really fix the social inequalities, we've got to address them both at the same time. What do you mean by that in specifics?

Yeah, for sure. So I would say that there are a lot of instances of injustice, social injustice, that lead to environmental disparities. For example, one could be discriminatory housing laws that were very common in kind of the Jim Crow era in America, and how those housing laws have created areas of cities that are surrounded by manufacturing plants and large agricultural farms that don't have a lot of laws and regulations surrounding what gets emitted and how it gets emitted and waste treatment facilities. So all of these housing laws that emerge out of a desire to segregate communities still have impacts on health hazards, environmental health hazards for these communities, like higher rates of asthma for Black communities and specifically black children because of their proximity to manufacturing plants and concentrated animal feeding operations. So that's kind of one example of how

things that, you know, policies that are discriminatory that seem to be in our past still perpetuate both social and environmental injustices to this day. It strikes me where the whole system is broken in a way and we need to overhaul everything. What, in your opinion, are the exciting things that are happening in that space? Yeah, that's a really great question because it can feel like, oh my gosh, there's so much to do, which there is, but there's also so much that's being done specifically by the communities who are the most affected. One thing that I think is really encouraging is after the pandemic and during the pandemic and all of the racial injustices that came to light at that same time, people have began to understand this intersections that I'm talking about.

My friend actually kind of, she coined the term intersectional environmentalist in 2020. And she coined this term through an Instagram post, but it went viral. basically a pledge of people who wanted to commit to keeping the connection between social injustices and climate injustices at the forefront of their activism in either sphere, and a pledge that really commits to understanding the intersectionalities of these problems in order to go about fixing them. So I was really encouraged to see how that took off and how many people wanted to join in on that movement. And since then, I think climate justice as a term has really emerged and grown to kind of stand side by side social justice. And so much so that in the US presidential elections of 2020, that a question about climate justice was asked

for the first time in a presidential debate, which is very significant because for it to reach that level where citizens across the country are evidently concerned about it and are aware of its phenomenon is, I think, really powerful. Absolutely. And so when you talk about climate justice, in some ways, I think people might think, oh, we're talking just about global warming or the impacts of the climate warming. But you're saying it's that, but on a micro level, it's also the pollution of the soil and the water and the air. Is that right? Yeah, for sure. I think those are all super important things. It's also kind of the indigenous people and how their lands have been stolen from them and also exploited for years and years and years. It's also animal agriculture and as a

system, how the people that are typically employed to work in these huge animal agriculture and as a system, how the people that are typically employed to work in these huge animal agriculture plants are low-income immigrants who often feel like they might not have any other choice. And when we see these documentaries into these animal agricultural operations, we're like, oh, that's so inhumane. And the working conditions for both the people and the animals are just really terrible. So I think there's really no industry, no kind of category that is immune from the harmful effects of climate injustice. Do you have another example of a specific story about climate injustice that can highlight this for people and bring it into a sort of more personal human context? Yeah, definitely.

So I guess this goes along with the manufacturing plants I talked about, but there is this, it's called Cancer Alley. It's this area that goes through Louisiana and in the South of America. And it's where there's a ton of manufacturing, chemical manufacturing plants. And one of the companies is Formosa Plastics, I believe the name is. And the area is known for having a disproportionate amount of cancer diagnoses and in direct correlation with the proximity of these plants to where these people live. So that's like a, you know, very direct way of understanding how these chemical manufacturing plants have a impact on the health of people and their longevity. Another one I can think of is disaster relief. So I'm from Houston and Hurricane Harvey was a hurricane that really decimated our

city in 2016. And during that time, I was working at a social services agency where we provided resources and aid to people who are lower income. And truly up to nine months after the hurricane hit, we had people, predominantly black and brown people who were coming in for financial aid. They still hadn't gotten from FEMA, which is our federal emergency department of government. Yeah. So FEMA had still for months after the disaster struck, not compensated these people, the people who are already, you know, didn't have much, much, many assets and were really living paycheck to paycheck were just, just so out of luck. I mean, and but the rich, richer people could afford to get, you know, just buy a new place and get new cars and all of that stuff. So those disparities were really heightened

there. And then after I was really interested in the disparities in disaster relief and aid, and there are many studies that highlight how specifically in America, after a natural disaster hits, black low-income communities tend to get poorer, while richer white communities tend to get wealthier. So there, I mean, that is just, you know, very, very crazy to me and definitely highlights an instance of climate injustice. Absolutely. It would strike me that in all of this, there must be some huge emotions that you have to deal with. How do you cope with it? Because I'm angry and I don't look at this stuff every day.

How do you cope with that stuff? Yes, that is why I call myself a climate optimist. I realized, you know, because this is what I study in school. This is what I'm most passionate about. So I spend kind of my free reading time about learning about this stuff and also what I work professionally in. So I definitely understand that it can feel just so doom and gloom all the time. And, and, you know, I also am angry a lot. But I realized that in order to make change, I've got to channel that anger into some sort of hope, because it's really hard to make change if you don't believe change is possible. So it's okay to be angry, but not

letting your anger be stagnant and letting it kind of fuel your action, I think, is really important. Because even if, you know, one person can't facilitate huge systems change, but many people can help facilitate that. So I think it's really important to, again, channel that anger, those emotions into a sort of optimism that change is possible if we all get on board, if we all work together. And so that's why I think it's really important to celebrate the environmental wins, to keep people hopeful that change is happening. And it's only possible if we have, you know, sustained action. Absolutely. What are some of the wins? Yeah, oh, for sure. So every week on Friday, I post like weekly environmental or weekly earth wins. And I love, you know, the process of researching those and sharing them. And I found it to be really therapeutic to myself as well. So I mean, just in this past year,

I would say kind of some trends with with the wins I've been reporting on are a lot greater recognition of Indigenous land management. And so basically, for a long time in history, the government has been really distrustful of Indigenous ways of living with the land, even though they've been the best stewards of the land and they steward a majority of the biodiversity in the world. And so I've I've seen, you know, whether it's money or land, back after, like we've talked about, a history of oppression and removal and forced removal. So that's kind of one trend that I've observed. Another one is the appointment of more diverse voices in offices that have the power to make climate policy. And I think that even extends to the creation of offices like an Office of Environmental Justice.

We're seeing that on both a federal and a state level that there seems to be an acknowledgement that we need concentrated effort of diverse voices addressing these problems. It's not enough to have the same people, the same voices that we've had in positions of power, fixing problems that they're not facing themselves. So I've seen a pretty widespread effort on behalf of different states and even the federal government itself to create spaces for people who are affected by these problems to actually have some power in decision making. I would say maybe another one. Oh, you know, this is pretty general, but there are, you know, from survey data, there has been a increase, a notable increase in the amount of citizens who believe that climate change is

human-caused and also a threat to the economy, a threat to their well-being, their family's well-being, a threat to global health, a whole variety of factors that climate change really does have an impact on. And I think even though that seems like a very small win to acknowledge something that you and I have known to be true, it's a large win because, you know, everything is people powered. So whether it's people making more informed decisions as consumers or people making more informed decisions as voters, when they have the reality of climate change in their mind, it's really hard to unsee. So I also think that's like a huge, huge win for our country and around the world. What advice do you have for people who are coming up against family members or friends who are like, oh God, climate change, that's not a real thing. You're all like, look, earth he's always been warming temperature fluctuates get

over it you know yes oh my gosh I literally just wrote like a short ebook on how to have these conversations in the holiday season because I can imagine I'm very lucky that my family is all on board but um those are really tough conversations especially when they're with people that, you know, care about you, but you just can't get them to see the big picture. But I think one really good way is to relate it to your family, to what they care about too. So the easiest thing, like I just mentioned, is family. But saying, you know, the likelihood that my child will grow up in a planet that is not livable for a lot of people is very high. So bringing up kind of something that is really sacred to that person, you know, the the ability to have a thriving family that is healthy is at risk with climate change. Um, if there are more interested in numbers and the economy and business talk about how there's not going to be any business on a planet that, you know,

can't sustain its people and, and that, how that is at risk and, and how, you know, the coronavirus that, that pandemic, it was such a hit to our global economy. And there's ample evidence that viruses like COVID are going to increase in frequency and severity with climate change, because as we continue to invade wildlife and areas that are not really meant for humans to be in, we are going to face those repercussions. And, you know, that's how COVID started. And that's how things are going to proliferate. Even the thawing of ice, you know, the thawing of permafrost in the Arctic, there are scientific studies that prove that there are pathogens that have been dormant in that permafrost for centuries. And when the ice melts, what's going to happen? We don't know. So there are

certainties, right? And I think even highlighting those uncertainties to some people very concerned about things like the economy and business is a very powerful way to really communicate the threat that it poses. And the opportunity that we have right now to enact change in a way that protects the people of the planet, the planet itself, and also that is good for the economy. I mean, there are so many jobs that can be created that should be created to help advance kind of renewable energy and the circular economy. There's a lot of opportunity and it's not all just doom and gloom and you got to stop living your life. It's not about that. And it's not about everyone being perfectly zero waste or vegan. It's about making intentional efforts with the

problem in mind and using your talents and your career and your expertise and interest to make a difference in that area. Because like we just talked about, there's no industry or area that will go untouched by the effects of climate change. Absolutely. And I think for us in Australia, we have seen a marked shift, not from our government. Our government has a woeful track record with this stuff, but from business, because they're pushing our government now because they see this opportunity, right, economically with renewable energy and all the different spaces within this sustainability kind of model for business to be at the forefront of it and for there to be so much more growth within the sector in jobs and finance and all of that stuff. And I think you're right because the business is leading the way.

I think, unfortunately, money seems to speak louder than a lot of other things on our planet, unfortunately. Yeah. So, yeah, for sure. I wanted to ask you now about the fashion industry in particular because that's obviously a real passion of yours. Where does fashion come into this kind of intersection that you've been talking about? Intersectional, what was the phrase?

Intersectional. Intersectional environmentalism and then climate justice. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Where does fashion sit in that sort of umbrella? Yes. So fashion as an industry is one of the most polluting industries, more so than aviation and I think transportation as well. And that pollution comes from a few different stages within the process of making and selling a garment. So it's the production of a garment and the dyes it takes to color a garment and the materials it takes to weave together a garment. It's kind of the whole, you know, in the middle of the supply chain, it's the transportation and how many different steps throughout a supply chain a garment goes through to get to kind of the final end stage. It's the pace at which it's happening because of fast fashion. The supply chain is kind of compressed and timelines are short because people want designs from the runway to their closet. And then it's the waste. It's at the end

of a garment's life. It's the way that a majority of our garments go to the landfill after being worn only less than a dozen times. found that you can make a conscious decision to empower yourself without disempowering anyone on the planet and the planet itself. I think it's like we just talked about, it's really important when we're thinking through solutions to the climate crisis to think about things that give us joy while also helping the planet. So not just things that are, oh, you can't do this and you can't do that and you have to take this away, but things that are like you can still, you know, have a sense of style that you feel really confident about and that really allows you to express your personality, but doesn't hurt the planet or its people. So I think since the fashion industry is such an industry notorious for being very wasteful and so many emissions and being very pollutive, I think it's

a great opportunity to, once again, empower yourself without disempowering others. And I think the attention that's been given towards exposing the consequences of the fast fashion industry, both for the planet and the people behind the clothing, the garment workers, has been really productive because people have began to rethink how they consume not only clothes, but how they consume other goods and what they need versus what they get and how to just be a more conscious consumer. So I think the fashion industry is a really great starting point for a lot of people who want to get into finding solutions to the climate crisis. Because once you, again, once you see something, you can't unsee it. And once you see how wasteful

some of our consumption patterns are, that extends outside of clothing. Absolutely. It strikes me that sometimes with the fashion industry, no matter what you do, you can often come up against real problems and environmental impact and then impact on the people who make the clothes too. I recently saw a documentary about the fashion from Australia that we think is being donated to charity and then just gets sent to Ghana and dumped. And have you seen the images of just these kind of like mountains of old clothes, just with like cattle on top and people living in amongst this, they call it dead white man's clothes. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And it frightened me. And then, and also, yeah, made me feel really sad, but I guess I wanted to ask you what are

the practical things then that people can do? What are the labels? Where, where should people be going to get clothes that make them feel good, but aren't having such a big impact on the environment? And yeah, cause, and we, we would assume that when we donate something to the thrift store, we're like, oh, we did a good thing. And, you know, we're reducing our local economy and all of that stuff. Exactly. But, you know, the reality that nearly 80% of clothes that are donated to thrift stores don't get sold at the thrift stores and get either diverted to landfills or sold globally to

countries in the global south, predominantly in Africa. And that ends up decimating those African countries' garment industries themselves because they're just getting an influx of clothes from the West and reselling them at really, really low values. I would say my biggest advice is to shop your own closet first and be intentional about what you already have and what you can do with what you have. Two is shop your friends' closets. I'm a really big fan of swapping. It's so easy and fun to swap with your friends and acquaintances and just, you know, revive your wardrobe in a way that doesn't necessitate an exchange of money. And then third, I think thrifting is a really good way to reduce your environmental footprint and also not contribute to harmful labor practices that

are typically wrapped up in the fashion industry. But when you're thrifting, being mindful of, again, what you're consuming and what you need versus what you want. And then taking really good care of your clothing because regardless of where you got it from, even if it's from a fast fashion brand and you've had it for years, it's better to hold on to it and take good care of it than just discard it, you know? So treating your clothing as if it's better to hold on to it and take good care of it than just discard it, you know? So treating your clothing as if it's something that someone put in their valuable time to make

and make with care, I think is a helpful way of just thinking of whatever piece of clothing you're wearing and whatever piece of clothing you're trying to buy. And then finally, supporting brands that are trying to dismantle the hold that fast fashion has in the larger fashion industry. So sustainable and ethical fashion brands that are working with organic materials or reclaimed fibers, and that are being really transparent about their supply chains and their goals for sustainability and their current practices in sustainability. I think transparency truly is key because it's really hard in today's day and age to have a supply chain that's completely like 100% thumbs up, you know? But if a brand shows an effort and a willingness to be really clear and honest about their efforts and their intentions and what they do know, I think that is a really good sign because they are admitting that they are not perfect.

There's, you know, no one is perfect. But especially as a brand in the industry, it's really difficult to be perfect. But they're making the effort to do what they can to really change the industry, it's really difficult to be perfect, but they're making the effort to do what they can to really change the industry from within. And that's what we're trying to do with my startup in the loop is one thing that I found is that supporting these brands, these sustainable and ethical brands is really difficult because of, you know, several barriers to access, you know, the primary being cost. Because these brands are really intentional about their material choices and about who makes the clothes and how they're

fairly compensated, the prices have to be higher than the prices that we're used to browsing fast fashion websites. So In The Loop is trying to bring down those barriers to access by enabling rental for these brands, which allows customers to try before they buy from these brands at a low risk and low cost manner. So I would say, yeah, those are sorry. I kind of rambled, but for. No, that's exactly what I wanted you to do. I was hoping that you'd get to what you're doing without me having to ask. Yes, but that's kind of what we're trying to do is move circular fashion forward through increasing accessibility to sustainable and ethical brands so that the movement is something everyone who wants to be a part of can be a part of. And that, I guess, is linked into that idea of social justice, right,

too, and accessibility. What's your favorite of the brands or do you have, like, some favorite garments that you own yourself? Yeah. So I would say I really like the brand Selva Negra. I think they're really great and they're really committed to size inclusivity, which is wonderful. I really like Hara, the label. They based in Australia. And they make really good quality basics that are

dyed in natural ways. Other than that, I truthfully mostly thrift. And I wanted to be able to support these brands myself. But I was like, even as an influencer in this space, I can't afford a lot of these garments. I I want to be able to support them but how can I do so so that's kind of where the where the idea came from but yeah I mostly thrift and shop my friends closets all right I think that's such great advice that's awesome that brings me to a fun conversation I wanted to talk to you about we often ask a guest on the show for a TV show or a film that's been really formative for them.

And I asked you and you said Slumdog Millionaire, which, oh, God, what an amazing movie. And just in case listeners can't remember, I'm going to give a little synopsis first of the movie and then we can have like a lovely, delicious deep dive because it's such a gorgeous one. So Slumdog Millionaire is about a Mumbai teenager reflecting on his life after being accused of cheating on the Indian version of

Who Wants to Be a Millionaire? The story of Jamal Malik, an 18-year-old orphan from the slums of Mumbai who is about to experience the biggest day of his life. With the whole nation watching, he is just one question away from winning a staggering 20 million rupees on India's Who Wants to Be a Millionaire? But when the show breaks for the night, police arrest him on suspicion of cheating. How could a street kid know so much? Desperate to prove his innocence, Jamal tells the story of his life in the slum, where he and his brother grew up, of their adventures together on the road, of vicious encounters with local gangs, and of Latika, the girl he loved and lost.

Each chapter of his story reveals the key to the answer to one of the game show's questions. Each chapter of Jamal's increasingly layered story reveals where he learned the answers to the show's seemingly impossible quizzes. But one question remains a mystery. What is the young man with no apparent desire for riches really doing on the game show? When the new day dawns and Jamal returns to answer the final question, the Inspector and 60 million viewers are about to find out. At the heart of its storytelling lies the question of how anyone comes to know things they know about life and love. I love this movie.

Why do you love it? Why was it so formative for you? It's such a good movie. I would say I watched it when I was pretty young maybe too young for a movie like that but I think I was about seven and oh my gosh I just remember specifically the scene about it kind of hinted at, you know, sex trafficking, and also the exploitation of orphans and some children in India. My mom is Indian. And so I think there was some sort of connection in that way. And I've never seen the country like that, or framed in that way. But I knew that it was, you know, I throughout the movie, I remember asking my grandma who is from there, like, is this, you know, does this really happen? And she was saying, yes, yes. Um, so I, I think that

first of all, it really just opened my eyes to how privileged I am and how that could have easily been something that I went through, not the game show probably, but, um, just, you know, living in poverty in this country with billions of people that, you know, also call it home and how it just completely, you know, as a child, so many people experienced so many inequalities that informed the entire rest of their lives. And I just, I think it really opened my eyes to how important, you know, fixing injustices, wherever you find them is because children inherit the trauma from, from injustices that they face and they grow up and, and that's still a part of their lives. And I think the movie really does an excellent job of showing how what he went through

in his early ages as an orphan and a child living in the slums really carried through his entire life. And I think specifically the trafficking scene, trafficking is something I'm, or anti-trafficking is something I'm very passionate about. And it's kind of how I got into ethical and sustainable fashion. So I think that was crazy to see to me. And again, just really opened my eyes to issues that I had never thought of in my little bubble. Yeah. And at seven, they're huge themes to be grappling with

because on the surface of this movie, it's quite fun and romantic in lots of ways too when you talk about trafficking what is it that you mean exactly so I would use kind of the you know most widely agreed upon definition by the United Nations which defines trafficking as any form of exploitation that involves force, fraud, or coercion. So whether that be labor trafficking in the sense that someone is promised a job in a country that is away from home, or even a city that's away from home. And they're promised all of these benefits and they're not getting those benefits and they're getting their wages withheld from them. That's an example of labor trafficking. Also, you know, most of the garment workers in

the global south that are working in factories that don't comply to health and safety regulations and codes of conduct and who are not being paid for their overtime hours or getting proper leave for when they have children and all of that stuff. That is another example of labor trafficking. There's also the traditional notion of sex trafficking where children and adults are made to exchange sexual services for money that typically doesn't go to them. It goes to someone who is controlling them. I think something that is really powerful, the movie talks about this in the instance of a child and how she was trafficked and sex trafficked, but also something that I've noticed through anti-trafficking work in the States is that a lot of people are convinced by their pimps,

the people, typically men who kind of control them and keep their finances, convince these people that they want to do this and that it's on their own volition. But again, going back to that definition, it's anything that involves forced fraud or coercion. And often, a majority of the times, the way that women and children and men as well are lured into this trade is through false pretenses and is through grooming practices that are, you know, very, very strategically planned in order to take vulnerable people out of, you know, wherever they may be, wherever they call home into a foreign place with the promises of love and money and happiness. And none of that is part of the package. So yeah, that's kind of what I mean by trafficking.

And I actually, my blog, Soulful Seeds, when it started, it was about health and faith and wellness. And I wrote a piece about mental health and someone I went to high school with reached out to me and said it resonated with her. And we got to talking and she told me that she had been trafficked throughout high school. And that kind of unlocked a part of my brain that remembered the movie. And then I was like, I never thought of that as something being so close to home. You know, I was thinking of it in a global context and let alone, you know, in my community. I was not thinking of it as something that was a real present threat and something that my classmates were experiencing. So from that point, I got into ethical fashion because I was like,

trafficking is such a huge problem. How do I go about being an advocate against trafficking on a day-to-day basis? How do I incorporate this advocacy into my daily life? That's how I came about ethical fashion and being a conscious consumer as a way to combat labor trafficking. And then from there, I realized the environmental impacts of the fashion industry. So it kind of came full circle, but this all kind of started with an interest in anti-trafficking efforts and a testimony from someone who was an acquaintance, but someone who lived in the same city as I lived in and I went to school with that shared a very intimate and personal experience with me. Yeah. Do you mind talking about a little bit more, you don't have

to talk about her name or anything, but what was her story? Because I think that would shock a lot of people. I think when we think of trafficking trafficking we think of people being moved from place to place overseas in different situations that aren't so close to home yeah yeah definitely she so she I didn't ask much but the what she told me was basically that during the day she had gone to school and gone about life as usual. And at night, she would be taken to some place by her trafficker and trafficked. And it was in Houston. So I lived in a suburb of Houston. So she would be taken somewhere else in the city. And she told me how that continued even as she graduated high school.

I believe it was with a different trafficker, but I think that shows how, again, going back to the childhood trauma, how that stays with you and sort of trauma can become a part of your identity. And I think that it was just a very crazy story, for lack of better words, to me that really opened my eyes to, to this issue and how it's not just what I saw in the movies and what most of us think of when we think of trafficking, it can be close to home and it can be in our backyards. It can be something that our friends get sweeped into and something that we ourselves get sweeped into. And I wonder too, is that sometimes something that happens within

families or within extended families? Yeah. With that, because to me, that sounds like it would have had to involve her family in some way if it was happening after school. Yeah, absolutely. Again, I didn't ask, but two years or two years ago, I worked in an anti-trafficking agency in Tennessee called End Slavery Tennessee. And a few of the women who were part of the program, it's kind of a rehabilitation program helping survivors. They grew up in very rural towns in Tennessee that were, you know, drugs were a big part of the community and their parents and their family members were big drug addicts and users. One woman who at the time was probably in her mid forties told me how her first

introduction to both drugs and trafficking was when her aunt was high. I can't recall what drug it was, but her aunt's aunt was high and her aunt's dealer came over to her house and the dealer was also high. And the girl at the time was 12 years old. And the dealer forced her to take the drug because he thought she was a police officer. And he thought that was a way to ensure that she wasn't was if she would take the drug because he thought she was a police officer and he thought that was a way to ensure that she wasn't was if she would take the drug and because her aunt owed the drug dealer money for the drugs he also told the aunt that a way she could repay him was through letting him have sex with her niece so when this girl was 12 years old, she was raped in front of her aunt by her aunt's drug dealer

and forced to take drugs. So that was just one story about how, you know, within the family it can be endemic and something that persists throughout small towns and communities because oftentimes prompted by either economic, financial need or drug and substance abuse. My goodness. Yeah.

Yeah, I think, well, I wonder if you agree with this, that the more we tell stories like this, the more people can build empathy for these situations and then the more change can happen. What can people do in this particular space? Do you have any organisations you work with where people can contribute in some way or help? I know in Australia, there's a place called Eden, which helps survivors of trafficking create jewelry and give them skills. And then they sell that jewelry here. And I know there's obviously lots of other organizations. Do you have anyone that people could reach out to? Yeah, I would say I totally agree with your point about empathy. I would actually recommend a YouTube channel. It's not a nonprofit.

It's a YouTube channel. And the person who runs it has a GoFundMe, I believe, and a Patreon where you can support his work and also the people he interviews. But he goes to Skid Row, which is a street in Los Angeles that's very notorious for drug and substance abuse and homelessness. And he interviews people. And it's very, I mean, there's, there should be trigger warnings for every single video because it unpacks some really heavy trauma. But he basically interviews these people, ask them about their

lives, ask them about their childhoods. And in almost every instance of someone who has been homeless for a while, someone who is now prostituting themselves or has been arrested, is abusing drugs, there has been a case of either trafficking or sexual abuse as a child or just severe childhood trauma and familial abuse. And I think it really shows, it digs deep to show the histories and the hurt and the pain of people that we see on the streets and maybe just walk past because we don't want to make eye contact and give them money. It really unpacks, again, going back to intersectionality, the intersections of different huge issues that can just compound. Yeah, yeah. And really just impact someone's life. So I think that's a really great way to hear these testimonies of people's lives and experiences and build that empathy. And then in terms of organizations, there are a few global ones like International Justice Mission is a really big organization

that helps anti-trafficking efforts all around the world. There is an organization called A21. I believe it's based in the US, but they're very large as well. And they do a lot of anti-trafficking education and mobilization and and slavery Tennessee I I know it's very specific to Tennessee but you know having having

worked with and and talked to so many women who have been a part of the program and so graciously shared their stories with me it's been so eye-opening. And I think that the work that they're doing is really incredible. And honestly, if you just Google your city, your town, and anti-trafficking, just support the organizations in your town because people are being trafficked. Wherever people are, there is going to be instances of human trafficking. So just support organisations locally. It strikes me that at the heart of all of this is poverty, right? And lack of access, lack of education, and so much of what we see. I know in Australia, in our Indigenous communities,

so many of the problems stem because of racial inequality, but stem from a lack of access and poverty. Is that something, a space that you're working in, that you're seeing some movement in, in a hopeful way, if we're talking about optimism, you know, do you see that as something that's getting worse or is it, is there things that are improving within that inequality? Yeah, I think you're totally right that poverty is at the root of these issues and also education or, you know, lack thereof and incarceration. So I think something that is really important to stop the cycle of poverty is ending systems of incarceration that are very discriminatory in the U.S., specifically towards Black people. That is really fundamental because,

like we've been talking about, kids need a healthy support system to grow up and be a healthy, active member of society. Without that, if they have parents incarcerated, especially if it's for wrongful reasons, it's really hard to grow up in a healthy and positive way. It's also hard to dedicate time to your education if you're dealing with all of this stuff at home. So I think all efforts to kind of prison abolition, prison reform, whatever school of thought, you know, you prescribe to, I think it's really important to support efforts in that area to really change the way that we have been incarcerating people. And also education to extend kind of early pre-K education to everyone because

starting early is the best way to get on the road to a successful career, but more importantly, a fruitful life that is free of poverty and that is just a happy life that every child deserves and every person deserves. So I think those, I'm not sure if I can speak to any like trends or movements globally or even in the US that are really addressing those two things. But I do think it's important to think about what you said is like the root of the issue is like, just think about when a child comes into this earth, how to eliminate all the barriers that they might have to success. And all of the barriers that are disproportionately falling upon children of color and indigenous children and low income children. I think that's a great place to kind of start thinking

of how you can make a change. Absolutely. It's that analogy, isn't it, of I used to be a teacher. We'd do this activity with kids, and I'm sure you've heard of it, where we all start a race at the starting line, but then you say kids who have blue eyes take five steps back. Kids who, I don't know, live in this particular suburb take ten steps back kids who I don't know live in this particular suburb take 10 steps back and then you start to see that if life is a race we're not all starting at the same starting point

because if you come from a stable loving home if you have access to food and water and shelter and good education then you are streets ahead already before you even get your foot out the door. Absolutely. Yeah. And I think that that is often the problem that sometimes I hear in other commentary in the media and on other podcasts that, well, you know, you just have to pick yourself up by your bootstraps and work hard and you'll succeed. And these people just are, for want of a better word, dull bludgers or, you know, all of that kind of BS bullshit really, you know, because that often comes from and particularly I would say privileged white people, often white men too,

saying that, well, why don't you just work harder and you'll be fine without seeing all the barriers that are placed in front of people. And so, yeah, I'm hopeful that the more conversations like these we have, the better, right? And I want to thank you so much for the work you are doing. My God, you're just combating like injustice from every angle. You're like a hero. I think it's very much, just to make this point, because I think it's really important what you just said, is that privilege isn't an insult. You know, I think a lot of people, like, I'm very privileged. And if I think of that as an insult, if I'm, like, offended by that title, I'm going to shy away from actually doing anything with it.

But privilege is a privilege, and we need to use what we have to do the most good. I think too many people think that being called privileged is saying that they didn't work hard or blah, blah, blah, or they don't deserve anything. That's not what anyone is trying to say. It's that there are some things that you as an individual have that have made you more inclined to be successful in whatever way it might be, right? And the best thing you can do is use your privilege rather than just sit on it. And, you know, so I think that's a very important discussion. And I'm so glad you brought it up. Privilege is not an insult.

It is a blessing. You've got to run with it and use it for good so that everyone can have opportunities like like you might have gotten yourself growing up that is so true I'm so passionate about this because I remember years ago just after I finished studying teaching I went and lived in Tanzania for a while and we was working with local communities and local kids there. And for a while I had this really kind of horrible mindset where I was like, oh, I'm so lucky and, oh, who am I and I'm a terrible human because I've got so much access to things. And then I was looking around at these beautiful kids

and families and thinking, God, there's so much joy here and there's so much wonderful stuff going on and, like, culturally so beautiful and and also what an asshole for me to sit around and just be like oh poor me with my privilege like yeah like oh my god get over yourself like how exciting that you've been given this and I was speaking to one of my students who's a high schooler and he was just laughing at me and he's saying oh you poor mzungu like you poor white lady or you haha if I had what you have I'd be sitting around having beers with my friends beside a pool like get over it you know and um and that that perspective made me realize that yeah

there's a lot of sacrifice and hard work that's gone into my ancestors getting to where my family is now I mean we had convict ancestry a lot of them came over in boats you know my great great grandmother was a prostitute who stole a watch and ended up on a ship over here and I think she would be mortified if I was just sitting around wasting the privilege that I've been given. Exactly. You know, it's not like my Angelou quote about put your crown on and walk because other people have bought it for you standing on the shoulders of history, of the people, the ancestors, the love that's gone in. Don't waste it. You know, pay it forward.

Be proud of it. I thank you for saying that about privilege. I think that's a beautiful way of thinking about it. What can we do with our, you know, what does Mary Oliver say? One wild and precious life that can help rather than sit around and feel sort of guilty or something. It's not a useful emotion, guilt. Oh, oh, my gosh, it's the worst.

Yes, exactly. I know, and as women I think sometimes we're more, and I grew up Catholic, so I think Catholic guilt is a huge thing. Yeah, I wanted to finish actually by asking you about your faith and your belief system. Yeah, I think, so I call myself a serial monotheist. I was raised going to both kind of church and also the mosque. And I think that there's a lot more divisions than there needs to be within all faiths, but specifically

Abrahamic religions all point to the presence of one God. And I think that through my experiences in life, I have really just been pointed to the goodness of one God and the lessons that come from believing that we're all created equally. None of us are better than the other, but some of us have been given more in this life to do more with. And like we were just saying, if you have more, you have the responsibility to do more. So I think my faith has informed a lot of what I'm passionate about and what I'm hopeful about has informed my sense of optimism as well as my sense of urgency and need to establish as much justice as is possible on this earth. So yeah oh that's so beautiful and finally where did the name soulful seeds come from oh my gosh that was that truly was one of the first times I think it also ties back to faith and religiosity I truly believe like the word and the whole

concept was kind of just came out of nowhere and I really believe that God just like spoke it to me, but it came very randomly. And I was actually thinking a lot about guilt when, when it came to me, but it basically is the idea that we're all seeds. We vary and breed and type, but we all need the same things to grow. We need sunlight, water, nourishment, soil. And we all have an interest and a duty to make sure that the other seeds grow as well, because we're all the same. We're all equal. And we're all part of a bigger ecosystem that takes care of us and that we have a responsibility to take care of as well.

That was beautiful. My goodness, that was beautiful. Oh, you made me want to cry. Don't you think, though, that the world just needs more of that that simple simple idea of a seed and I know there's passions in the bible um in the christian bible about mustard seeds and you know in fertile soil and all of that stuff and it's so tiny and I often think how miraculous like a seed is so tiny and it becomes a tree it becomes these amazing things that feed us and I love gardening for that reason I think gardening really teaches you so much about all of that right in the right conditions in the right

soil it's just incredible how big things can get from tiny little things and we are sustained by them you know like how it's just so crazy to me that we can be sustained by these little things. It's crazy. Isn't it? I know, and I think that's where you have to start, right? That tiny little thought, that tiny seed, whatever it is. There's a song in Australia by an artist called From Little Things, Big Things Grow.

His name's Paul Kelly, and his song is about Indigenous land rights and about a movement that started with one man and grew to allow Indigenous people within Australia to receive a portion of their land back. But the song has taken on a life of its own and I often think about that from little things, big things grow. And I can't wait to see what big things are coming from you, Zara. Thank you, Blair. Thank you. We're so glad this was such a lovely conversation oh it was beautiful thank you and um I can't wait to share everybody

with all the links underneath um in the show notes and you can find Zara at Soulful Seeds on Instagram and her blog and links and all of those things. All right. Thank you. Bye. You've been listening to a podcast with me, Claire Tonti, and this week with Zara Biobani from Soulful Seeds. For more from Zara, you can head on over to her account on Instagram at Soulful Seeds and the same on TikTok. And there's lots of things as well on her blog all about mindful living. So you can find all the links to all of those things over there on Instagram. And for more from me, you can head to my website, claretonty.com,

or you can head to my Instagram at claretonty. Now the wonderful Maisie has set up at TonsPod for all the latest updates and she's sharing stuff over there. So if you'd like to follow along with her and the show, you can head on over to at TonsPod on Instagram. As always, thank you to Roar Collings for editing this week's episode. And I also do another podcast with my husband, James Clement, or otherwise known as Mr. Sunday Movies, and that comes out every Thursday. It's a recommendation show. We often make fun of each other.

We often just commiserate about being parents and how tired we are. And that comes out every Thursday. So I'd love you to go and subscribe over there as well, if you feel so inclined. And so that's it for me this week. If you wouldn't mind as well, subscribing, rating and reviewing, that would just make my whole day. So you can do that in-app on Spotify or Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to this show. All right, sending you a big lot of love this week. All the feels, but we can do it one step at a time. Talk to you soon.

Bye. I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which I create, speak and write today, the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation, and pay my respect to their elders past, present and emerging, acknowledging that the sovereignty of this land has never been ceded.