TONTS. - Surviving Home School with Dan Steele

Episode Date: September 7, 2021

Today my guest is Daniel Steele who is a primary school teacher, basketball aficionado, Dad of two little humans and the brains behind the wonderful website Upgrade Think Learn. Dan is an old friend of mine and a legend of a bloke who also happens to be a vice principal at a school by the beach in the outer suburbs of Melbourne. He is also a writer and chock full of enthusiasm and creativity. I rang Dan one night after home schooling all day to pick his brains about a worry that many parents and myself had shared about how our kids are going missing so much school. What he had to say made me really think and also allowed me to get some perspective on all of it and realise that more important than how our kids will go academically is how they actually are in themselves. Dan made me think about what we can do to help them and us through this really tricky time and reminded me that as always prioritising our mental health, how we feel in our heads and hearts will ultimately be the thing that gets us through. That being said this week I’m leaning into getting more sleep, drinking water and getting out each day for a walk or a run. It’s simple but whenever life gets tough I always think those seem to be the first things to go. When I’m spiralling into a really bad head space I run that mental checklist. Have I had water today? Have I eaten? Did I sleep? Have I exercised? It’s amazing how many problems seems more manageable if we’ve done those things. Also side note to any teachers out there thank you, you are on the front lines, are often the one consistent face parents and families are seeing each day and you are so valued. Thank you for showing up for us, our kids and our communities. Links:ABC EducationReading Eggs The Gifts of Imperfection by Brene BrownBerry Street Education ModelYou’ve been listening to a podcast by me Claire Tonti and this week with Daniel Steele. For more from Dan you can find him at https://upgradethinklearn.com/ And for more from me you can head to my website www.clairetonti.com or on Instagram @clairetontiThank you as always to RAW Collings for editing this episode and if you’d like to contact the show you can email me at [e-mail] Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, Claire Tonte here. Welcome to Tonce, a podcast about feeling all of it. And in week one million of Melbourne lockdown, it's safe to say I think we are all feeling all of it. You know when a friend gives you a nickname that instantly hangs around? My guest today would often call me Tonce across the staff room, offering a chat and a coffee back when we worked together in the trenches as fresh-faced graduates in our first years of teaching. He also was the instigator of after-school hip-hop dances for a group of, let's face it, pretty goofy teachers and I was bloody there for all of it. He made working at our school fun and his enthusiasm for life and creativity in his teaching was just infectious.

Many years later, Daniel Steele is now a vice principal at a school by the beach on the outskirts of Melbourne. He also happens to be a basketball aficionado, dad of two little humans, and the writer behind the wonderful website Upgrade Think Learn. I rang Dan one night impromptu after a particularly frazzled homeschooling day to pick his brains about a worry that I think many parents are sharing here in Melbourne and in many places across the globe about how our kids are going missing so much school. What he had to say made me really think

and also allowed me to get some perspective on all of it and realise that more important than how our kids will go academically is how they actually are in themselves. Dan made me think about what we can do to help them and us through this really tricky time and reminded me that as always prioritising our mental health, how we feel in our heads and our hearts will ultimately be the thing that gets us through. He also has some amazing tips for making this whole at-home learning gig just that little bit easier and don't we all need some of that? That being said, this week I'm leaning into getting more sleep, drinking water and getting out each day for a walk or a run. It's simple stuff I know

and stuff we've heard a million times but whenever life gets tough I always think those seem to be the first things to just choof off out the window. When I'm spiraling into a really bad headspace, I run that mental checklist. Have I had water today? Have I eaten? Did I sleep? Have I exercised? They're not silver bullets, but it's amazing how many problems seem more manageable if we've done those things. Also, side note, to any teachers out there, thank you. You are on the front lines, are often the one consistent face parents and families are seeing each day, and you are so valued. Thank you for showing up for us, our kids, and our communities.

All right, here he is, my wonderful pal, Daniel Steele. Oh, my God. So for people who are listening, I have just told Dan or Dan's wife, Ellen, just told him about 20 minutes ago that this is what we were going to do. But I think that's indicative of the pandemic, right, Dan? Because what I wanted to talk to you about was something that everyone has been asking me about or commenting about or just saying that they're so worried about their kids and schooling at home.

And as a teacher, as a professional that I very much respect and you're like, you know, you're working at the coalface every day. Do you want to tell us first what your role is at the moment and your background in teaching? Ah, yes. yes yeah I'm in a Melbourne primary school and yeah I'm the assistant principal there my job's to pretty much I'm I've got one of the best jobs ever which is I get to help teachers get better at helping kids so I'm a little bit further removed from the actual like daily teaching in the classroom but I get into classrooms and then I get to work with the teachers about things that they want to do to best help the kids and like you just said the kids and like you just said um you know I just care my dad I think like you just said as well right now

there's such a huge need and the biggest thing that I'm finding that I'm having to say to our staff just over and over and over again is, is it doable? Is it realistic? And like, can you cut that back? Like we even had these meetings, these meetings where we had the first, so I don't even know how many lockdowns we've now had this year. Like it's term three, week six of term three. Normally this is the term when you're cruising in a school, like you've got all the things set up, the kids know what's expected. Like we just had chaos because they came in, we got settled, then we had a lockdown, they came back, then they'd gone off again. So for me, the big thing we've continually come back and said since the end of term one is, all right, we need to be really intentional. Like what's the point of what we're teaching or what's the point of what they're learning like if we can't explain that then why are we doing it is it doable and

then also slightly different can we make it slightly fun um because that's Matthew because I think that's a big thing is like I'm talking from a primary school context I'm not in a VCE class where you know like you've got this huge weight of all these expectations and, you know, the whole system. But so our big thing is like if we don't know why we're doing it and we can't articulate that in a really simple way and we also can't connect it to kids, then it's going to be really difficult. So, yeah, it's a really tricky one, but I think the parents

are getting that. Like, we've been just cutting things right back. Like, we're just like, what's – like, I even said to some teachers just today that are in charge of visual arts and PE, and I said, so what's the one skill? If a kid could walk away over the next week, what's the one thing you would want them to have opportunities to develop? I don't want you to tell me all the different things. And then what are the ways that you might help them practice or show that? And then what's the simplest ways we could do that? Like don't go above and beyond.

And, Toms, you used to be a teacher. You know how nuts we go, right? Like teachers love, they're like, oh, no, I could do this, this, this, this, this. That's great. Just cut it back. Yeah, totally. Because I think because now I was a teacher and now I'm a

parent and the flip side of that is that you get you understand now why parents kind of acted the way they did when you were teaching and and vice versa there's that kind of you know there's that relationship that can be really wonderful but you're just seeing things from the other side now and understanding why that parent might have not returned that, you know, slip that they needed to for an excursion or lunchbox isn't perfect or they've forgotten the T-shirt for whatever day. And now it's like why they may not have replied to that email

or uploaded enough to Seesaw, which is like an app where kids are sharing work, right? Yeah. My concern, and I think an app where kids are sharing work, right? Yeah. My concern, and I think a lot of parents are saying to me, they're just concerned about their kids slipping and they can see their kids slipping and they know they're slipping because they're comparing them to, say, their siblings or they're just comparing them to other kids in the class because they can see directly what everyone else is up to and that's quite confronting I think for a lot of parents who would not have like got a

report home and not really completely understood what that meant until you're watching it unfold online and seeing a direct comparison do you have any advice for parents who are kind of grappling with that? Going through that? Yeah, there's – so the one thing we keep hearing a lot about, you know, not only at school but also, you know, as you keep reading different things and people talking and you even – you said the word slipping behind. So my first point and question is so what do you mean? Like slipping behind what? Because the way that we see

a kid falling behind or they're behind my first question is behind what like are you talking about they're behind in their motivation are you talking about they're behind in how they're feeling like do they want to not get out of bed in the mornings are they behind in their letters and sounds are they behind in the reading comprehension because i think parents are having all of these discussions and i know too is like as a parent because we're really lucky we've got four-year-old kinder still happening so i'm not having to go through the world of home of home learning not homeschooling because parents like teach parents aren't teachers so they need to remove that pressure off themselves but my first first thing is always, so behind what?

Like if you're worried that they're behind in their motivation and their interest in school, that's a really different conversation to, oh, my God, I'm realising my kid still doesn't know all the letters or sounds in the alphabet. Like that's two very different conversations. Yeah. And also that fear we love comparing, and particularly I think in really stressful times we love to compare against other people. So as soon as, and it would be so, it's so intense when parents can hear

what other kids are doing, they're like, oh, my God, Johnny's not, Johnny's not like retelling five events in the sequential order, like that kid just, oh, my God, my kid's an idiot. No, like, well, just remember you're not a teacher, so a teacher designs lessons so that they know Johnny needs to be extended so they will do little things to let Johnny really show or they might ask Johnny to explain something so that the rest of the class hear a really great example.

But then they also know that majority of the class might not be up to that point, but they're trying to model to them what a really good answer looks like. So I think for parents, they need a workout. so when they're saying they're slipping or they're behind are you talking from a well-being perspective or are you talking from a learning because from our perspective at our school our whole thing is well-being's the the forefront like that's the core of everything we do and so we are just addressing how students are feeling what are we doing what are we

doing what are the ways we're supporting them with their engagement and participating and then we focus on so what are the ways that we can then help them with their learning because we know if you're not if you don't feel right it's really hard to learn um so i think the advice the advice that i would give is they need to think of and chances are the parents you might be talking to, probably worried that their kids aren't moving further in their reading and their maths. So I'd say to them, if they're really worried, don't compare them to other kids because unless you're a curricular, if you know the curriculum back to front, yeah, you could do that because you probably know where a child should be at this point in time. Don't sit there and beat yourself

up. Like you don't need to be so mean to yourself to then say oh my god we're not doing this and my child's not enough like just have a conversation with the teacher and say I am just really curious how how do you think they're going or is there something else we could do because good teachers and good schools and we've got so many amazing good teachers and schools in Australia they'll say like, all right, Claire's actually not moving as far ahead in her letters or her sounds or, you know, we're doing a big focus on retelling stories.

If she's not interested in what we're doing in class, like she can show you that in different ways. And so you can get the teacher to tell you what the main skill is that they're working on. And then you can just sort of think of different ways that you might tap into that like my daughter Thea we've been doing a thing she she loves just reading and talking about stories so if I want her to practice or like show like have a go at retelling stories she was watching Paw Patrol she bloody loves Paw Patrol all I do like I right, okay, so if I'm a little

bit worried that maybe the retelling or the teacher has, I've had a conversation with the teacher and the teacher says, we're doing a focus on retelling, don't make a big deal of it. Hey, what just happened in that episode? I sort of know what happens, but if she can tell me, if she can tell me roughly beginning, middle and end, and it sort of makes sense, like that's her and she's getting to chat with me, she's getting that little bit of attention. If you're in the middle of your work day, don't try and do that because you're under the pump trying to work. Like just be realistic.

But then you might say at some point today I'll just ask them to tell me about their day. Or just, you know, have that conversation with the teacher. Try and find if you're worried. Take the burden off yourself. Have a conversation with the teacher and say i'm really curious um and i'd really recommend saying that because then you don't come in like that full-on parent saying like what are you doing what's happening start by just saying i'm really curious um i'm a little worried about how they're feeling with or how

they're going with their letters and sounds how they're going they're writing what are your thoughts and let the teacher just start to talk to you. Like trust the teacher. They are doing a bloody amazing job and they're putting so much thought into all of the things they're doing behind the scenes. So I'd really recommend have that conversation but try and work out, I think first and foremost, are you worried about them slipping behind in their wellbeing, so as in like their engagement

and their participation, or are you worried about their reading, are you worried about their writing behind in their wellbeing? So as in like their engagement and their participation? Or are you worried about their reading? Are you worried about their writing? Or are you worried about their maths? Because normally parents get worried about that. Is that what you're hearing from the parents? Yeah, yeah, I guess so. Yeah, definitely.

And I guess, so for example, I know my son's in foundation and a lot of the kids came with really low so fine fine motor skills because they missed most of kindergarten last year or like so there are you know worries with parents about that or about reading levels or numeracy all of those things and I think I really appreciate what you're saying in that realistically we should be looking at their wellbeing first before any of that. Is that because you think that in the long run we'll be able to catch up on that educational content, for want of a better word, but this is such an unprecedented time, we need to be looking after each other first and our physical, I mean, our mental headspace and emotional well-being I think there's yeah

there's quite a few things in that so I think if there's good teaching practice people have the opportunity to to move ahead like this year the Victorian government's been investing hundreds of millions of dollars in this like tutoring initiative which was really in the end was to try and get kids who've been affected by the pandemic to get opportunities to have like really small group learning so I think we don't know if that's continuing next year it's highly likely that they're going to provide that that funding so I think like I really do care for it's the hardest thing watching kids in your child's year level so in foundation from kindergarten through to like year two, they're really critical times.

That's a really needy time and a really critical time with literacy. So I think it's not just excusing and saying, oh, yeah, we'll catch up at some point. But I think the really important part we all need to keep in mind is, and I think we said it before we started recording, but just like everyone chilling out a little bit because if you're uber stressed and you're really stressed which we all know all of our baseline anxieties and stresses are slightly upright like we're not just cruising on all the time so if we add to that stress and our children then start to

get more stressed we know we know through the science and we know through the work that they're doing in all trauma-informed practice, like that's the stuff we do at our school. As soon as people are more stressed, they can't take in more information. So if your baseline stresses up, your ability to learn is therefore decreased. So our whole job is focusing on how do we de-escalate. So like every day when I come home from work I'm

really good at doing that at work and then I come home and I'm like oh my god the house is nuts what's good but I then go there's no point mate like don't escalate things just yeah stuff's going to be a bit messy I have I have to let go of that and just focus on drop my expectations I pictured my house being beautiful and like my kids putting everything away where they should. And then I remember they're four and two, like they're not going to do that all the time. So I think sometimes us remembering to check what we expected might happen. And then there's the reality and being okay with that being a little bit different. I think your mate, Brene Brown, you know, she talks about that clear expectations, you know,

like don't hold people and others to account unless either you've made the expectations clear or that they're realistic and that's a really important thing. But to go back to your point with the catching up on the education, I think our job is in schools and as parents is to just keep coming back to just make the expectations realistic, try and see the bigger picture. It's really hard when we're stuck in the day to day and playgrounds are closed and we're feeling a little bit more stressed and we've got the pressures from work. Just take some breaths. Just remember like this will pass that we just have to keep seeing

that bigger picture and then if you can reduce your stress and you can reduce and just remember like you're the person that sets the tone in the family like people feed off you you can then start to have those conversations with the teachers and if the teachers know that you're not like that you're not as full-on and you're not being as stressed out they can then have a better conversation it's like hey yeah you're right um so if they are we're doing a focus on reading do you know what you could just read some books together at some point tonight like it's okay if you maybe didn't get to it today during the webex that went for 20 minutes because your internet was playing up like at some point like you can catch up on that or you can jump online and go to

reading eggs or if you're really stuck like tons i don't know if you want to post um like links relevant links to this one but like i think that would be great yeah like abc tv education is incredible so you know take the pressure off they release a whole schedule like they tell you minute by minute what episodes are on they tell you the group. They tell you what it's connected to. You know your kids are doing a focus on science. Look ahead two weeks, I think you can see. You can go, cool, I'll sit down and I can watch that show. And it's going to be connected.

It's going to be building up their science knowledge. It will be connected to building up their science literacy. Obviously TV education. Schools all have access to amazing resources like Reading Eggs is really good for phonics and it goes all the way up from like three-year-old to 12. There's no silver bullet, but it's a really good resource. Other schools are using things like Essential Assessment where they have really targeted activities that can be short and sharp and snappy. You know, I talk about

you do a little bit but often so five minutes of reading to your kid or five minutes of your kid practicing some phonics every day over a year that adds up and then over three years it adds up like a little bit but often don't try and be so hard on yourselves because right now shit's pretty real it's so. It is so real and so unprecedented. I love that advice about just doing a little bit often rather than trying to take on huge trunks and forcing them to write reams of words and stressing about where they're at. I think that's so important, especially with younger kids. I mean, I'm talking younger kids because that's where I'm at, I can't even imagine what parents are going through with teens at the moment and what teens are going

through being in lockdown with their parents. Their parents are the last thing you want to see when you're a teenager, right? Yeah. Can I say something that might be potentially controversial? Go for it. But for like teens and high schools and things is i want every parent to remember and so everyone's everyone's journey through school is very very different and i i'm not a secondary

trained educator but i do know the system um and the crazy thing is going back to that expectation so i think it's with this report that was released, I think it was through Melbourne University, it was 24% or 26% of people getting into university were through their Year 12 score. So what that tells us is that 76% of people who go on to university are doing it through other pathways. So, like, they find other ways to get to the thing that they wanted.

You know, Ton, it's like think of you with how you became the thing that they wanted. You know, Tons, like think of you with how you became a podcast head honcho. You know. Flying by the seat of my pants and making it all along. If you channeled your artistic flair and you drew that or you painted that journey, that's a really different journey to what you pictured the 16-year-old when we first met and we did dancing classes.

You know, like it's a really different thing. So I think if we've got teens, again, it comes down to that sort of addressing. We really expected that schooling would look a certain way and right now it's looking really different and I think we just need to continue to have support. Those teenagers, they're going to annoy the hell out of you because their job is to test boundaries and they're looking

for other role models. Their job is to go beyond the family. So the important thing is to just continue to have those really supportive conversations about different ways to get to what you want and it's being it's okay with not knowing what you want just now um but really supporting teenagers to work out what it is that you value what are the things that you care about because your score doesn't actually matter. The score never actually matters because if you really value helping people, you might choose to go into being a doctor or a nurse or a teacher.

Like if you know what your values are, then you'll find a way to get to the thing that you want to do. And, yes, that's very idealistic, but I think if you get people talking about what they care about and what they want to do and the ways they might do that that's a lot more real to a kid and a teenager instead of you sitting there going but if you get this random arbitrary score of 80 or 95 you can get into arts in melbourne like that's great so what and like that reduces that pressure if it's okay just work out what do you care about? You're then having building that connection.

That's what we all need right now. We're wanting connection. And I think with teens, they're desperate for that. Just you need to continue having those conversations. I think that goes back to something you said before, which is something we've been doing with our son. We'll do the classwork and obviously we're both teachers. So lucky him, can't get away with anything.

I do love the way you guys hothouse. It's so cool. No, I'm joking. I'm joking. It's just so good the way you look over his shoulder. I really like when you hand up the worksheets that I see you guys do and there's half his writing and then half your writing. I think that's really and I've noticed that you even falsify,

like you will write with your different hand so it looks like he's handwriting. Is that what you do? Completely. Yeah, that's it. Exactly right. Just do that. It's fine. Then your kids will be fine forever.

Perfect. Exactly. Yeah, totally. Just let them, you know, do all their work for them and they'll be completely grounded, fine humans. I think that's how it works. Totally. Totally. to find humans. I think that's how it works. Totally, totally. Yeah, so I guess what I was reflecting on and what we've been doing with our son, which, you know, he's had ups and downs like we all have

and he's having these like massive feelings about what's going on because he's stuck at home and can't see any of his mates, as we all are. But what you said about learning through the things that they like and figuring that out. And when that's a teenager, that might look completely different to, you know, my son's really into Lego. So at the moment it's Lego.

But that's how we're getting him to do stuff and the literacy activities will be there for the day. But if he doesn't want to do any of them, we'll draw a Lego and we'll write about Lego and we'll make the Lego and then we'll go to the shop and we'll buy another set of Lego, you know, and we'll do that. And that'll be our learning for the day. And it's not that, you know, and then in the five minute gaps, we'll do some of the rote stuff that he has to learn, like the letter sounds or, you know, like doubles facts or whatever it is that we're at. But that's where we're having the most success is when we're tapping

into what it is that he loves and then actually getting stuff out. And I think you're right, that is such a great strategy for any kid, right, and for us as well, just to not give up on the learning but trying to find ways to get them on side. It's just so hard when parents are working full-time from home with their kids, you know. And hearing you talk too, I think the big assumption is that we have the ability and the time to be able, you know,

so they're doing a focus on, I don't know, like some reading comprehension strategy or they're doing their doubles facts. You have to have the headspace and the ability to then say, great, i've got the time to then think of what do i know about my child and then how can they practice the doubles fact that's relevant to them like that's that's how a teacher will think or like that's normally what good teaching is about is connecting it so i think the assumption is that people have the ability so the way around that too is because i was thinking about that um is so let's go really

practice i'm a parent right now listening to this and i go that's great i don't have bloody time to to do that like i'm under the pump i'm here trying i've got my boss like telling me i have to get onto this i've got the child there they've got their webex or they've got their zoom class happening if it all goes pear-shaped and your child is either not understanding the task that then means it's being pitched too hard for them so there's like if they understand the task but they're not doing it that's very different so that might mean that they're either bored or they're just like over it so you might then say do you know what that's okay you wouldn't say that's fine you'd say okay it looks like you're not wanting to to do this learning right now is it too hard or do you just not want to do it and then normally like and i'm talking for kids

probably within like i'd say in across all primary school because i do use that whenever we've got kids disengaging from work they'll they'll fess up they'll say it's too hard like if no one else is around them and their friends aren't there and people don't, yeah, it's too hard. Well, they'll say, no, I just can't be bothered. So if they can't be bothered doing it, all right, so if you're choosing not to do it now, that's okay, but we will have to come back and do that at some point. So you can choose not to do it now. Can you let me know of a time it would work that you're going to do this?

And then if they choose not to do it then but you've then said, all right, so you're going to go have some lunch and then do it, like, that's okay. Like, again, adjust the expectations because we're not doing full school days. Some schools are doing full days, and I taught at a school that did this where they did all, like, back to back to back to back, just like five hours of online learning. The kids were wrecked. The teachers were wrecked um a lot of the a lot of the reports and things that are coming out with online learning models like they're saying you need to have a like a blend of like giving them off offline times and online times so in primary schools we're only getting a few like a couple of hours where they're being on which also gives you the freedom to pick and choose like some more and more families they're now saying okay so you'll come back to that task

later like it's okay for them to come back to that just make sure you do that follow-through like that's the thing like okay and that also helps build up your kids regulation and themselves starting to take ownership of their own learning they're not going to be perfect they're not going to say do you know what mom in half in half an hour, you were so right. I am ready. I'm five years old now. I am ready. No, they probably want to go play Lego.

But your job then is just you just do the check-in. Just remember, we said this time, remember when it's pointing at this number, that's what we're going to get back on. If they still refuse then, that's a different conversation. Remember, because you then would would say like you then have that discussion about you made the agreement um or we can't do this then like i think just just keep coming back to it's okay if things don't happen right then and there just try and pick your battles look at that bigger picture too um good schools are starting to realize there's core tasks

that they want kids to be doing and that's giving parents and families the chance to sort of adapt. So as long as you're getting onto those things a little bit but often it also gives you the freedom to know that stuff's going to go pear-shaped and you have to adapt to your work and I don't know just now I was trying to make it quite practical for people I hope that sort of came across. No, no, that is really helpful. And I think going back to what you said at the very beginning about our wellbeing too, sometimes, and I think this happens in the classroom with me, it's happened with my kids, that sometimes you just call it.

You call it and you just go, this isn't working. We need to shift the energy here. We need to go and just do something else and we'll come back to it the next day and that's okay because nobody is perfect and sometimes things have escalated to a point where there's just no point trying to push on and we need to be kind to ourselves about it too, right, at the end of the day, like what you were saying about chilling out. Yeah, and I say this, like I'm an assistant principal

at a primary school in quite a disadvantaged area. I've got incredibly high expectations and standards. So I, like we literally talk about every minute counts, but now we're in a different time. Like every minute does count when we're engaged in a task, but I'm not saying that every single minute in the day like has to be answerable i'm saying if we're choosing if we're choosing some tasks that where we're really

intentional and we and we know like the reason i'm getting claire to do this card game is because i'm actually getting claire to learn how to see which number's bigger so like i even get decks of playing cards and we're talking about snap so you might play snap with your kids and you might do for really little kids it might be snap in the in like traditional way of just matching the card matching the numbers as they start to get older if you've got older kids you can adapt the game and you're like okay you do snap if the difference between the two numbers coming down is like three or four or five so then kids are having to really use like instant mathematical recall so i think like yeah we can we can sort of adapt things we can chill out but it does it does take work and i think the work is

is us reducing the expectations on ourselves because we're mindful that the time right now is really different the other thing i was going to say is so you know how we had those two world wars like what did our grandparents our great-grandparents do right like they were literally going through crazy crazy wars for multiple years for like four or five years you know it's not like it's like and i know you it's different times and stuff but like people if we keep remembering the big picture and we keep remembering, like, we just need to be easier on ourselves. We need to, yes, we do care about learning.

We deeply care about learning and we deeply want people to succeed. But for right now, like, some days, yeah, it might all just go completely bear-shaped and go shit. And you need to put on Paw Patrol. Do it. That on portrait paw patrol yeah exactly make yourself a cup of tea paw patrol goes on and we all just sit i was getting so frustrated the other day and so right we're going for a walk down to the tie swing that we found that's down at the park like we just got out of the house and had to do something different um and i think that's okay. I mean, it's different if that's suddenly happening every day.

That's more of a thing when you're like, hang on, that's when, again, wellbeing, like there's something going on or our child's not engaging in anything. That, again, tells you that wellbeing is a critical thing if they're not engaging. Yeah. And what do you do then if that's the case, if you have a child where you're really

concerned about them and they've disengaged completely from learning and they're refusing to, what would you suggest the first thing parents should do? Yeah, I think that's a really valid, really fair question. So the first thing I would always do is it all comes down to trust. So there's two aspects. You trust that you know your child so you will know if you'll have that reading if you know they're taking the piss and they're actually just trying to get out and doing work versus they're really struggling and they're not feeling okay or the work's too hard. So you will have a perception straight away.

So I would go to then ask that question of, hey, I'm noticing the last like two days haven't been getting into this or, you know, you're not wanting to log on as much or it's taking you longer to get onto this. Is there anything you're not sure with the computer or the tasks too hard? Because it might be IT stuff. Because that's the other thing that a lot of people are forgetting is, especially with little kids, there's a lot of different things I have to learn or a lot of different it skills they need just to get into the task or to do the activity then it might be asking like is it too hard or you're just bored or you're not enjoying this once you get that information i always like it's i always talk about it being a fact finding you know fact finding time once you know that the second part of the trust is you have trust in the teacher that they know what they're doing and go and have the conversation and just be and and put

some trust into them and say hey claire's the last two days or the last week she's just not wanting to do anything i've asked her and she said like it's too hard now the teacher might then go i know claire can actually do this this this and if's trust, if you've offered the trust, the teacher will probably come back to you and say, actually, when we were on at school, she could do this, this, this. So that can lead to a really helpful discussion because you then know, oh, my child is able to do it. So maybe it's like the way it's being delivered is really hard. And then the teacher can actually say to you because, again, you've put in that trust into each other is cool. So what's a different way I might try it? Like we could try this or is there a way you could help us with doing this at home and they might just say yep it might just be as easy as let them go grab a book from

home or you could get some playing cards and practice this game or do you know what i've actually got a different link we could send you this one like schools are adapting and supporting we're doing that we've we have to adapt we've're doing that. We have to adapt. We've got some families who we have to call them up like half an hour before the scheduled lesson that's down just because the parents really mean well and they really value education. But there's different things happening. They've got like four or five kids.

Like I know with my family, when I was growing up, we had five kids. My parents were dealing with five kids all trying to do home learning online. That would be a nightmare. So they had the best of intentions. But some people forget and so they just need a reminder. So for some of our staff, they're incredible. They call individual families just as a reminder, hey,

just remember Claire's got that lesson coming up in 20 minutes and then the kids get on. So, you know, like previously the kids weren't turning up. So it's really hard to learn if you're not turning up yeah so and that's all because we we had these conversations and the parents were like i'm not sure they've missed a lot of lessons like so it starts with that trust like trust you know your kid if something seems off try and work out are they bored are they not engaged or do they not have the IT skills? Then trust the teacher

knows what they're doing. Talk to them. And if you do that, chances are you've got a reasonable person and they're not having a really off day. The teacher will then be able to offer some assistance. Yeah, I think that's really great advice because I know there's so many barriers, right, to all of this stuff because families need to have the right technology they need to have english that is you know accessible and in that if there's a language barrier that's also really difficult or if they're working in a different situation and they're not working in a capacity where they can be flexible with their hours or if there are money stresses or lots of other stresses on kids home home lives and families' home lives. It's just I take my hat off to teachers.

I just think I thought you guys were great before when I was a teacher, but now I just think, my God, the amount of adaptability that's had to come from the teaching community this year. I'm just in awe of all the teachers I know and the teachers I've seen. They're just bloody doing incredible things. How do you think teachers are feeling in general? Everyone's pretty knackered. People are pretty tired.

I think going back to those very lovely praise that you were giving to teachers, and I think it's really worthy. I think what this year's also pointed out and last year is that the real power of um of partnerships between families and teachers though so I think that's a really important thing like teachers are doing an incredible job but it's also been supplemented and supported by the families now we're realizing just how important partnerships are between the two um to go to the other question with how are teachers feeling there again I can only talk like within what I'm seeing in our primary school like our teachers So to go to the other question with how are teachers feeling there, again, I can only talk like within what I'm seeing in our primary school.

Like our teachers are classic primary school teachers. They've got so much energy in the day. Like they use all their energy during the day. They give it all and then they're pretty stuffed at the end of the day. But they also, they love what they do. They know that it's worthwhile. They're seeing the kids getting involved and actually continuing to learn. They're not going to be learning.

We all know, like, especially from four years of age through to eight years of age or even up to 12 years of age, like this remote learning, like it's not going to be the same. They're not getting all the social interaction. They're not getting it. So kids aren't going to be getting the same. It's not the same experience. But I think teachers are doing the best they can. And we to keep remembering that like they're doing a really great job often without a day to prepare so i know lots of people say just flick the switch and you go remote just remember too like you then have to just think of how um how often you probably do these podcasts

when you're sending someone a link and they have to click on a thing it takes a bit of what like that's just you you've done this a lot whereas teachers have to adapt all their lessons and make them online then they have to schedule all the meetings then they have to set up little group meetings within meetings to cater for the different small groups that they're targeting they have to still collect the data that they're collecting on students they're then getting feedback from students about how they go with their lesson then marking it then they're providing some feedback back to to students or they're checking and going oh that lesson didn't work I need to adapt what I did which sometimes means they have to change their whole week so they're pretty tired but like everyone right like because everyone is doing

everyone's doing more and they're doing it while their anxieties or like their baselines are a little bit elevated they're not sleeping as well people like aren't exercising maybe this time around as much or they're not eating as well so you know again it comes back to that well-being factor so everyone's pretty tight everyone's trying the best they can but we're all pretty knackered oh my, my God, so knackered. I think it is an impossible task to try and do everything perfectly in this situation. No, guys.

All right, here we go, guys. Tons, just put in your link the gifts of imperfection and go down whatever the chapter is, Chapter 4 about, like, imperfection, like getting rid of that. I am a definite recovering perfectionist. I think absolutely nothing's perfect. That's the biggest thing. You've got to accept it. The more you fight it, you just said it, you're making life harder for yourselves. The other thing I was going to say too, is we do a really big focus on very straight education models. So that's all about trauma-informed practices. And a big thing

that we're doing for our staff is self-care plans. So we talk about what are the things that revitalise you because we know after a day looking at how you are now when you're looking at the screen and you're starting to strip up. You know, you've been in front of a screen all day. So what are the things that give you that like boost you that little bit and i we make a concerted effort in staff meetings and in our team meetings we share things we call them positive primers um and i was talking about my self-care plan last week and i just popped up some pictures i'm a very creative person so i have to go for walks

and look for things i haven't noticed before to slow me down so I shared with them some photos I took of some really beautiful like sunrise shots of some trees and leaves I just said I'm purposely doing this because that helps me slow down so I don't get more on edge during the day so that's part of my self--care plan along with going and shooting some hoops and playing some basketball. So I'm aware of the things that help boost my mood again as well as some hardcore rap as well, normally from the late 90s or early 2000s. Perfect.

I know. Actually, music is really powerful, right? I spoke to a psychologist. The episode came out today actually called Carly McGoran, and one of her big tips for families was music. She said when you've got moody teenagers or, like, the mood is, like, really stressful, everyone's really heightened, you just put on a track and it can just diffuse everything

and everyone gets to be a DJ and choose their favourite song and whether that might be the same song from Frozen a hundred times or whatever it is, it creates a discussion and it does, music really does kind of bring you out of that. Yeah. I know we've started doing that at dinner time when things are starting to get a bit hair-raising, putting on a piece of music, a music, you could tell I'm slowly slipping,

like I'm just losing it, a piece of music. And we've got our go-to tracks as a family now as well. Like there's a gorgeous song called Let the Tall Ship Sail, which is from, I don't know if you've watched Hilda with your kids. They might be a bit little for it yet. It's amazing. It's this beautiful sort of cartoon about this little character called Hilda who goes on adventures and meets all these magical creatures. But there's just this gorgeous song called Let the Tall Ship Sail and it's like our family dance song. Yeah, that's cool.

Yeah, it's really fun. A friend of mine recommended it to us and now we do it too. Yeah, it's just guaranteed to kind of break a mood yeah well i mean yeah we're the same so the bluey album i don't know if you've heard that on spotify but the bluey album like there's certain songs we do a similar thing and where our thing is like we have a little bit of a boogie a little bit of a disco i'm all about every now and then like you need to inject silliness in because like why the hell not? You just need to be an idiot sometimes and if you can't be an idiot

in your own house, like you're taking life too seriously. So if you can, just be an idiot. No, I think that's a really, really good point. Music or again, it comes back to that self-care. Everyone's a little bit different. There's certain things that boost you. I know you are like an extrovert, but then you also like your own time to just chill out and have some space.

You like to write or do music, you know, so there's little things. The important thing is are you making time for you to do that, even if it's five minutes? Go do that. My wife, Elle, she loves like popping in some headphones, playing some music, and she goes and bakes cookies. So I know if she's doing that, she's had a bit of a rough day and so she's needing to recruit, right?

Yeah. That's a great one. Baking is really important. I've been doing that, stress baking. Yeah. Totally. There's something about the ingredients and mixing them and putting them in the oven.

It's very mindful. It's very mindful because you have to focus especially with baking because it has to be quite precise otherwise it gets mucked up so you're like you have to focus on that i that's why i love basketball i think really i'm thinking really carefully about the shots i'm doing um the other thing i was going to say so putting on that practical hat with the parents that might be listening who are sitting here going that's great but my kids are really stressed out and they're stressing me out is if you're seeing that your child's starting to get stressed or if you're seeing something happening where they're behaving or they're getting upset or they're

getting worried or they're getting nervous if you see something like that the best thing you can do is say in a really calm tone is just say i'm noticing i, I'm noticing, say Claire, like I'm noticing your, I'm noticing your shoulders are going up and down. Are you okay? Or, you know, like I'm noticing, I'm noticing you're scrunching up your fists. You seem upset. And then you shut up. You don't say anything. You just go really quiet. Give them the opportunity because you've named how they're feeling because kids right now, especially little kids, especially teenagers, they're going to be feeling a lot. Like you said before with your child, they're going through feels. But sometimes they don't know.

So if you say what you've noticed, I've noticed you're scrunching up your hands or I've noticed you're gritting your teeth or I've noticed you're not eating your dinner or I've noticed you're rocking on your chair. Do you need to go for a bit of a walk? Yeah, I've noticed you've thrown your bowl against the wall and now the broccoli is sliding down the plaster. Yeah, I've noticed you're no longer eating so it looks like you're finished.

So we'll pick up that bowl and we can have it later on. Yeah, great. And then they're like, no, no, I really wanted my dinner now. Oh, it's a shame that you didn't. So we might try that again in 10 minutes because mum needs to chill out. Yeah, yeah, correct. Exactly. No, that's really great.

I think that that's such great language because sometimes it's the language we don't know what to do and we can just want to shut it down or get heightened ourselves too when the kids are, like, losing it. And sometimes that will happen, where like it can escalate when you don't want it to but you aren't a perfect person and you can also explode you know I think everyone's only human and in this situation particularly it's so stressful and I think Carly who I was talking to and I think you might agree with this said that when that does happen when you can't when you haven't said I'm noticing but you've just said can you just eat your freaking dinner you know you've lost it you know it's about once everything's

calmed back down again having that open communication and talking about it with your child and talking about what happened to you. Yeah. Naming your emotion, apologising. But that open communication stuff I think is what I'm holding onto as a life raft really for everything I think. Yeah. We just keep talking. We keep talking about it and checking in and being imperfect parents,

imperfectly getting things done. There is no such thing as a perfect parent. No one is perfect. You should have seen me this morning get annoyed at my two-year-old who was trying to put her, I don't even know how to describe it, you know, like the mini toilet seat on the main toilet because she's toilet cleaning? Yes, yeah, yeah.

And I was like, I have to go to work. Like, can you hurry up? And no, Dad, I'm going to do it. And so I was like really trying hard not to work like can you hurry up and no dad I'm gonna do it and so I was like really trying hard not to lose it at a kid just trying to go to the toilet like so I caught myself out and like at school we call the micro moments like you spot little moments before it leads to like everyone losing their shit and yeah so I caught myself out and I said I need I need to step back and take some breaths and in our family like because we're both teachers too it's our poor kid we're always like

I'm gonna take some breaths now so I just stopped and I said I'm getting I'm getting annoyed so I need to step back and I need to take some breaths and I like today it went well because like I caught myself out and I stopped it before I got annoyed and yelled or anything like that. So I did it. I stepped back and I just stood there and took some big breaths and I knew that my two-year-old was watching me do it because they need to see that, A, you're going to stuff up because you get annoyed. If you just pretend everything's perfect, that's not normal.

So now it's like, you know, so they see. My dad got annoyed but dad stopped, like gave himself some space and then took some breaths. And it genuinely was like maybe a 20-second pause. And then I went back in and I was like, so are you okay or do you need some help? And then, no, I can do it. Great.

All right. No worries. And then everything was fine. But because I just, you know, like I was ready to crack it. But I was like, why? Just like step back, literally use the strategy, step back, breathe. Yeah, and because all those strategies that we're using for kids and talking about with kids are really things we do,

we need for ourselves as well, right, for grown-ups too. That doesn't always work too. Like I will be like come on sorry i need it like you know like you start to do the thing and then you you catch yourself out like that's the micro moment and you stop yourself and you take your breaths or you go for your walk or you go outside and then you come back like yeah it's okay to show them that there's strategies that you need to calm down because everyone feels angry it's okay to be angry or frustrated or upset or not.

Yeah, completely. We're all only human and it's really important. I think we're all going to feel like that through all of this. But I think, yeah, communication to me seems like the best thing that we can keep doing with the teachers as well, like you were talking about, with our kids' teachers. I think it's just so vital. I know Carly, it's only just because the episode came out today

and I was just rethinking about this, she called it emotions, energy in motion, and I loved that because if you can think about it as moving through you, what you did by stepping back and taking those breaths allowed that energy, that emotion, to kind of move through you and then it passes. And sometimes it's like once it passes you think, why was I like, I don't know, arguing with a two-year-old about whatever it is,

like the right bluey cup or like the fact that they said they wanted apple but now they don't want apple even though you gave them, they said they want this, you know. Whatever you were going to do is wrong. Yeah, exactly. And they just like lose their shit and start screaming because they asked for a sandwich and you made the sandwich. That's true.

But you didn't cut the crust off or you cut off only one crust or you cut it diagonally. Yes, triangle instead of squares. of squares oh mate you can't be doing that honestly so i just don't make any food i'm like go get it yourself no i don't you'll be right go make some dinner you want pasta off you go um no i think going back to the going back to the thing with teachers, I really do think it's the teachers and with parents is it's okay. It's okay for things not to happen. Again, like but if you get suddenly noticing that there's a string

of days where stuff isn't getting done, like, again, trust that you know your kid, trust the staff, and then trust that it's okay to ask a question. Like it's okay to reach out. Teachers will be okay with that. They'll support you and if they don't it's also okay to then go like go ask to talk to the assistant principal or you know who the next person up like their team like it's okay to say hey I you know I'm just really curious

I spoke to this person they said they weren't sure so I just thought I'd reach out like just come from that approach of just I'm curious hey hey, I'm just checking in to see this. Yeah, I think that's really sage advice. I really appreciate you taking the time out of what has already, I'm sure, been like a super long day for you. No, it's been a good day. It's been a good day. Oh, that is so good.

I'm really glad to hear that. And is there any last little bit of advice that you'd give to a parent who is worried about their kids? Well, my question to you is so from the parents that you've spoken to, just to help me because there's lots of different things you could say based on age groups. So the ones that you've mainly been hearing from, are they within like primary school or like it's primary years of primary school yeah all

right so i think there's a few different things so i think the really important thing is so if you've got a child that's within say kindergarten through to like year three year four when in doubt just keep talking to your kids oral language is the like oral language and vocabulary is the it's the linchpin of everything with literacy. So if you're talking to your kids, if you're asking them questions, if you're modelling language and you're just engaging them and they're having to listen to you, that is such a powerful thing. If they don't do any, like, and I'm putting it in invert, like in talking marks, if they're

not doing any of their tasks, but at night you have five ten minutes and you're spending time reading to them that's a really powerful thing because you're modeling sounds you're modeling language you're modeling how you think as a reader you're modeling like how a book is read um so you're modeling like that is critical part so if you've got kids in really early years that's the fact that if you're if you just have moments where you're just engaging to have conversations or you know before work starts if you happen just to get outside and just have a chat about what you say or stuff like that that's a really powerful thing um if you've got kids that are a little bit older you might want to just start to again i'm coming from a literacy because

literacy is core to everything if you've got kids that are say like from grade three to grade six you might just start to ask them like what they think about stuff. So if they've read something or even if they hated, oh, this is a really boring task we're having to do, oh, what makes you say that? And so then they have to start to engage by thinking about it or, you know, like, oh, tell me a little bit more. I don't know why it's boring.

Can you tell me a little bit more about it? Or like what didn't you like? So you're just having to get them to just think and by getting them talking about whatever the thing that was boring or that they didn't enjoy or it might be a tv show like getting them thinking and explaining what they've understood or to check if they've understood something that's a really powerful thing so again i'm giving this advice as if kids aren't engaging in the learning and you're like i don't know what what to do. So I think there's that. And the other option I'd say is for kids that are between three to six, there's a real power in just letting them read for

enjoyment. So sometimes at school, we talk about teachers will choose a book for them or will choose a text that we're going to read. There's also a huge power in just letting kids, if there's a book that they know how to read and they can read it and they're really interested, let them do it because sometimes we read just for enjoyment. So if you're letting them do that, that's a great thing because then after they've read whatever the thing is, ask them to tell you about it. And you might be cooking dinner and you're sort of half listening, but if a kid's able to start to tell you different things, you'll pick up little things, you'll be able to hear them and you're just showing an interest in their learning they're starting to just talk through and yeah i think it's just we can make things really simple and fun and it doesn't have

to be like so serious and so structured it can look a little different and that's okay that's great and i think that's life advice right can all be a little bit more fun a little different and that's okay. That's great. And I think that's life advice, right? It can all be a little bit more fun, a little bit silly, a little bit less structured. Bloody oath. Don't take ourselves too seriously. Yeah. You know?

Are we going to go out and shoot some hoops now? Is that what we're going to do? No, it's very dark. And I have a broken finger so I definitely should not play basketball. Oh, you broke your finger. How did you break your finger? I dislocated and broke it playing basketball because I thought I was young. Oh, no. Did you try and do like a slam dunk or something?

No, I don't even know what I did. It got to halftime and I couldn't bend my finger and so I tried to pop it back in and then realised it was probably broken. So then I did the smart thing and played the second half. Anyway, guys, don't take things so seriously because, do you know what, there's enough seriousness going on right now. Right. God, that's sad.

No, don't finish with that. That was no good. That was great. No, we should finish with a joint high five. Look, I could do that. Look at that. High five, Jed Steele. So structured. So structured. should finish with a joint high five look i could do that look at that high five dead steel so structured so structured oh no thank you so much that was really valuable i really really

appreciate you taking that time and i know it'll be really helpful for a lot of people pleasure no worries you've been listening to a podcast by me, Claire Tonti, and this week with teacher Daniel Steele. For more from Dan, you can find him at upgradethinklearn.com. And for more from me, you can head to my website, clairetonti.com or find me on Instagram at clairetonti. I've also put links to everything Dan and I discussed in the show notes below if you want some more information. Thank you as always to Royal Collings for editing this episode. And if you'd like to contact the show with guest ideas or just suggestions or feedback or anything, you can email me at tonspod at gmail.com.

And I would so love you to share this episode with a friend if you got something out of it and you feel that they might get something out of it too. It really helps me to keep making this show. And I also think at this point in time, we all just bloody need all the help we can get, don't we? And if you wouldn't mind rating and reviewing and subscribing to this show, just in app straight away while you're listening to this, just works wonders and would be so amazing. So if you get a chance, I would love that too.

All right. Big love to you this week. I hope you're doing all right wherever you are. And I can't wait to share more episodes with you very soon. Okay. Bye.