TONTS. - Teenage Girls Are Awesome with Maggie Zhou

Episode Date: May 27, 2022

My guest today Maggie Zhou @yemagz is a writer, producer, instagrammer and slow fashion advocate. She has become a really influential voice in the fight for sustainability in the fashion industry here in Melbourne and her instagram photography gives you such a joyful window into the way she views the world. We talk about what it means to be a Gen Z growing up as a digital native and why teenage girls are so awesome. Maggie's passion and enthusiasm for life is infectious and it was an absolute delight to sit down with her for an hour and talk about feeling all of it, relishing a good cry, her love of the film Suddenly 30, what it means to grow up as a Chinese girl in Australia and how her love of One Direction opened up a whole world of possibilities for her, beginning her first online venture at 13. If you loved the animation Turning Red, really love a good rom com and a healthy dose of self love, self compassion and self care this episode is for you. I sneakily suspect that this generation is really changing things for the better and I can't wait to see what Maggie does next.For more from Maggie Zhou head to her instagram @yemagz or you can follow her writing at the Australian Refinery 29 For more from Claire you can head to www.clairetonti.com or @clairetonti on instagramYou can email the show at [e-mail] credits:Editing - RAW Collings and Claire TontiTheme music - Avocado Junkie Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Do you remember what it was like to be a teenager? Like, really remember? All those feelings, the highs and the lows, the fangirling, the obsessions, the visceral nature of everything, being utterly heartbroken over a friendship issue or a boy you had a crush on, or being utterly ecstatic if your favorite boy band released a new song, you deep dive, learn all the words, learn all the dance moves, and then perform them over and over with your friends at school. Well, hello, I'm Tonce, and this is a podcast about emotions, about the joys of life and the difficult bits.

I interview every week writers, activists, experts, thinkers, and deeply feeling humans about their stories. And my name is Claire Tonti. I'm your host and I'm glad you're here. My guest today, Maggie Zhao, reminded me of the exact joy of teenagehood. She is a writer and producer as well as an incredibly talented Instagrammer and photographer. She is 23 and as we discussed in today's episode, a digital native. I found her perspective on things so refreshing and her take on social media and what it has meant to grow up with the internet really, really fascinating. Maggie writes for the online publication Refinery29 and is a fresh, funny and insightful voice,

especially in the slow fashion space. Maggie is an advocate for the slow fashion movement, really examining the how, what and why of our clothes, where they come from, who makes them and how we can all make more ethically sound choices in an industry that's impact on the environment is really problematic and often damaging. But we don't really touch much on that today. Instead, what we talk about is how it feels to move through the world as a deeply feeling creative person. And I just really enjoyed Maggie's perspective.

We discuss how it felt for Maggie to grow up Chinese as well and her longing at that time to be the same as her friends at school and how that has changed over time into a real love and pride in her cultural heritage. We talk about her love of cooking. We talk about self-care and what that means. And we also chat about Jennifer Garner's just bloody lovely film, Suddenly 30, which is one of Maggie's favourites. So if like me, you love to fangirl over things and find the joy in the tiny bits of life, I really think you're going to love this episode so much. Here she is, the incredibly talented and intelligent woman, Maggie Zhao. I wanted to start actually, normally I wait till the end to talk about the movie or the TV show that someone's brought in, but I actually think this is so perfect to talk about your life and everything.

So you brought in Suddenly 30 as like your favorite movie. Do you want to tell us about that movie first and why you chose it? It's the funniest thing because I'm someone who is terribly indecisive. I hate having favorites of things. Like ask me what music I like, I'll freak out. Same goes with movies, if I'm honest. But this movie, Suddenly 30, or some people know it by 13 Going on 30, which is just not as catchy, is a movie that brings me so much joy. I'm like the biggest sucker for a good rom-com and this, you know,

probably early 2000s-ish movie starring Jennifer Gardner is just something that I can watch and re-watch time and time again. Yes, right. It's just because it's Mark Ruffalo as well as kind of the romantic lead. Oh, yes. But it's just, I think one of the reasons I love it too, when I went back to think about it, is that it deals with the awkwardness of puberty and mean girls and growing up as a woman and how you imagine your life to be when you're 13. But also just like our perceptions of an adult and what that actually sort of is in the world. What kind of kid were you when you were growing up? I just had a massive flashback to me with my little bowl cut and my fringe. I'm a middle child, so I've got an older sister and a younger sister. And unfortunately for me,

in many home videos, you'll see me just crying slash wanting attention but not getting it. I used to cry a lot at the beach. Such an emotional child. But I also think I'm that typical middle child in the sense that I kind of keep the peace in the family. I'm kind of that kind of harmonizing butter between two slices of bread. A very happy-go-lucky child as well, very similar to how I am now. I am 23 years old and honestly, my teen days don't feel that long behind me. And it's something recently I've tried to hold on to. I loved being a teenage girl with all of its ups and downs and that kind of emotional side to me I still want to be in touch with but yeah very creative very much a book lover also a big crier those are the main things that come to mind which I don't know what

that says about me but yeah it says that you're one of my people because I just cry I still cry just constantly happy sad whatever I'm just there. It's something special. Like I think it's something to actually take pride in because being able to experience our emotions deeply and, you know, allowing us space to feel whatever we are feeling in that moment, that's so good. It totally is, isn't it? I think it's so important. Why did you love being a teenage girl? Because I hated it. it's so important. Why did you love being a teenage girl? Because I hated it.

I'm so interested. Why did you love it? It's with hindsight, I have to say. But my teenage years were very much colored by my love of One Direction, very much a fangirl. And those were some of the best years of my life, the most tumultuous emotional years of my life. But that boy band saw me through the better half of my teen years. And I just,

I don't know, again, it's very much rose colored glasses. I'm not lying to you. But looking back, I just love how we're talking about that unbridled emotion. Like that was, that was it. I often say that if you wanted to study the human condition and, and look at humans and kind of bottle us up into a little jar, just look at a teenage girl. Like I think they feel so much. A thousand percent. And so, and are so resourceful and powerful. What was it that One Direction gave you? A sense of community. Like this is terrible. My parents still don't know about this.

But when I was about 12 or 13 years old, I honestly started a Twitter account and it was for my One Direction fandom, like love of that page. And from there, I was connecting with other, hopefully, young girls my age. Again, this is very bad because it's stranger danger. But, you know, there was this beautiful sense of community where I got to talk with others who shared my love of One Direction. And it was just a space where we could scream, we could cry, we could talk about these British boys who know nothing about us,

who create like kind of sub-part music, but it's fun and it's joyful. And I think that was the biggest allure of it all. Yeah. Oh, there's an amazing artist called Eve Blake who's written a movie. Have you seen her stuff? Fangirls? Yeah, she's written a musical Fangirls, but her TED Talk as well is exactly about this power

of teenage girls oh my goodness her work is the most like affirming stuff i actually interviewed her on my own podcast um that i co-hosted my friend and it was just mind-blowing i had to re-watch it twice i was i was like this is the best musical ever I've got the soundtrack on repeat, trying to learn the raps, not much success. But yeah, honestly, like having that space where teenage girls' experiences are validated and put on a screen slash the stage, it's just so powerful because you don't see that much. It's one of the reasons why I really enjoyed watching the TV adaptation of The Babysitter's Club. I'm obviously not the core demographic for that. That is about preteen girls, but it just resonated with me so much. And it's so sad that it got canceled. And the creator of the show was talking about how

it kind of sucks that this period of girls' lives aren't given that respect that it might deserve, you know, and she kind of points out that, you know, how many Star Wars or how many Spider-Man remakes do we really need? Even though I love those films but, you know, it's like what about us? Totally. What is it that you think it is about our culture that doesn't give teenage girls the respect they deserve? Because that's a lot of the crux of Eve's work, I guess, too.

I think it's a confusing time and I think people don't want to understand what it's like being maybe, you know, a girl that's 10 or 11. Again, I'm going to reference the creator of the Babysitter's Club and she was talking about how, you know, girls are expected to go from Doc McStuffins to euphoria. I don't know. I want to know why we don't give it the respect we, I think it deserves because it's such an interesting period like of our lives. I don't know. I totally agree. I mean, obviously patriarchy is a part to blame, right? Because boys, teenage boys are allowed to cry over their football teams and slap each other on the bum and be like, you know, loud and obnoxious about it. And everyone's like, well, fair enough.

But if it's females being fans, you know, there's a different kind of treatment, I guess, of that. Like I always think about the Beatles and teenage girls screaming, right, and that's kind of seen as frivolous or undermined, I guess. I remember that's one of the reasons I think that Harry Styles is so loved, right, because of his love of teenage girls and he's openly talked about how much he loves having them as fans, which I just think, yes, Harry. Oh, my God.

Have you got tickets to see his show? I mean, it was a lot of money to drop at one time, so I actually didn't buy the tickets, but I'm someone who holds out for, you know, resale, like on the week of a concert, maybe someone can't make it and I'm there. I'm there buying the ticket on the week. It's been a long time since we've been to big concerts, so I am a bit apprehensive.

But, oh, my goodness, how good would it be to see him live? I know. Amazing. I know. I'm really apprehensive and I did get tickets. Oh, yes. I did. I was like, this is too much funny.

But also, oh, my God, Harry. I love it. So I wanted to ask you actually if you've seen the animation Turning Red. Did I ever? Yes. How incredible is this animated film? It's just everything I probably wanted as a child. So watching it was almost this weird feeling of, like, joy,

but also deep sadness because it's like, like I had to miss out on this. And it's so powerful. Have you seen it? Let me backtrack. Have you seen it? I have, but do you want to tell them the basic plot? I've seen it. I loved it. Of course. It actually follows this, I think, 13-year-old girl. Her name's May, and she is a Chinese-Canadian teenager, and this is kind of based in like the early 2000s. And she is someone kind of torn between two worlds. On one hand, she loves her parents. She honors them. She helps them out at the temple that they work at. On the other hand, she's also grappling with school and her cute group of friends who are

obsessed with this boy band called four town very similar to one direction like the vibes and also backstreet boys it's it's incredible and the film kind of just goes about her struggle between these two worlds and to make matters more interesting she also turns into a big fluffy red panda when she's emotional. So it's about kind of grappling with girlhood but also the cultural, I guess, balancing act of being like an Asian in a predominantly white space as well. Yeah, I just resonated so hard with May. Like just that, I just thought that was me as a teenage girl

and that joy and love, right? Completely. And obsession and those highs and lows. And you do feel like a red panda in your family, in your own life in lots of ways. In terms of your cultural background, how did you grow up in that context in terms of being a Chinese background? Did that have an impact on what you had to share with your family, what you hid from your family, you know, in the world? Did it not have much of an impact? Oh, it had so much.

I mean, I think one of the most interesting things, just to tie it back to the film for a second, because I was watching it with my little sister on the couch and as soon as May kind of pops up on screen, she is just like confident, geeky, like girl who's just so self-assured in herself. But I think one thing that was most shocking and embarrassingly shocking, like I can't believe I found it that way, was that she had this love of being Chinese and she wasn't ashamed of it. And I was like, well, that's one thing that

differed with my experience. Hey, like that is not the typical rite of passage that we typically see on screen because yeah, for me, that wasn't the reality. I hate looking back sometimes and thinking about the way that I treated my cultural identity with how much like hatred I had towards it and how much I wanted to just suppress it and hide it, right? I didn't like being Chinese. I don't think anyone who's, I guess, other likes that part of themselves because it's what we, it's what you want to kind of hide. So for me, I'm very lucky. You know, I grew up in Melbourne, quite multicultural, to be honest, the community that I found myself in. But at the same time, I just desperately wanted to be white, to be normal, quote unquote

normal. And I had these terrible, terrible memories of throwing out that beautiful pack lunch that my mom made for me before I even entered the school gates because I was worried about what people would think. And all these little things, like little moments in the day, which just kind of reaffirmed to myself, like, no, like who you are is wrong and this isn't the way to be. So yeah, while at school that definitely happened and I was very proud to emphasize my Aussie accent and wear shorts in winter like every other kid. At home, it wasn't necessarily like I had to hide the sides of myself that I found at school. I wasn't really hiding my friends or what I found interested in, but I think it was just that disdain for my culture was really deep. I had to go to Saturday Chinese school for so many years of my life and it wasn't

a pleasant experience. I'm just terrible with languages and I just felt so outside there as well, just because I couldn't speak Chinese either. So it was a weird, it's a weird balancing act that I think a lot of people do experience. Yeah. I'm so sorry that you had that experience too. And I thank you so much for talking about it because I feel like maybe that's not always a narrative that we get to hear in the mainstream media right what is it about being Chinese at school that you found really challenging as soon as you said this like one memory always pops my head and I need to let it go because you know I'm talking about maybe like a nine or ten year old need to let it go because, you know, I'm talking about

maybe like a nine or 10 year old boy. He didn't know better, but you know, there was this time in the schoolyard where me and a few of his friends were all just around. And of course, we're talking about who we like, right? Like who do we have a crush on? And then one of the boys is like, oh, like what about Maggie? And without like a second of hesitation, he's like, oh, no, she's Chinese. And that has just stuck with me for so long, which is silly because I know, like, come on, this is a child I'm talking about. But like words do hurt, right? And I think it's, you know, no matter how well I speak English or how much I try to get involved in team sports or just do what everyone else is doing, it's like, no, just because of the way I look, I am immediately treated differently.

Like I just so many times I just wanted to be seen as a girl as opposed to like a Chinese girl. But now it is like, you know, being Chinese is something that I love and I take pride in. So it has changed, but it's just difficult to kind of balance that because in the past, yeah, it was not fun. No, God, being othered in all different ways when you're growing up, that's what I hated about school, that you had to fit into particular boxes, right? And you can't just be yourself because kids often attack you if you're different. They're like, nope, get back in the box, be the same. And then you spend a lot of time and energy trying to be the same. But I can imagine when it's the way you physically are in the world. I mean, I was a very chubby kid, so that was my sort of,

you know, battle being a chubby girl, which now I look back and think, sweetheart, what a legend. You were so great. Yeah. It's, you know, being different is so difficult in lots of different respects. What is it that you are really proud about now being Chinese? What do you love about it? I think it's just, it comes from the love of my parents and my family. It's like, how can I hate something that we are? I feel like it's not just hurting myself, but it's hurting the people I love around me, not only my family now, but also my friends and the community I find myself in. It's just something I can't even really grapple with to a massive extent. I'm someone who, I guess, I know it sounds so cheesy, but I love myself and I love loving myself and I like being gentle with myself as well.

And it's like, well, my culture and my heritage is a part of that. So Maggie, we're not going to be so rude to ourselves and this big part of ourselves. And there's a lot to love and appreciate about my culture. I mean, food is what comes to mind. I'm not going to lie. Like that was the first thing that came to mind, but it's just, you know, the stories around the dinner table that we hear about like my relatives and whatnot. It's like, whoa, like I get to be part of this cultural lineage. I get to be part of this story. Like that's incredible. It is incredible.

Food is the best. Food is the best. It is the best. What do you love to eat as like a general sort of thing? Like if you're, I don't know, celebrating or something, do you have particular dishes that you love to make? Oh, my God. Why is lasagna one of my favorite food?

I know, like not what you're thinking. And then also my actual favorite food is actually cheese. And in the part of China I'm from, there's literally no cheese. Like that's not a part of our culture. But when I'm talking about my mom's cooking and I still live at home, so I'm very lucky I get to experience her delicious food most days of the week. She makes killer dumplings. And I was listening to your episode with Benjamin Law and he was talking about like, no, we don't make the skin. I'm like, we make the skin sometimes. We make the, I actually don't know what the proper word for it is, but we call them dumpling skins in our household, which sounds quite intense, but love dumplings and, you know, me and my sister will help fold them at times.

Mine are always like the ugliest out of the bunch, but it doesn't matter because when you cook them, they all taste the same. But, yeah, that's what comes to mind. Yeah. Oh, so lucky. Oh, my goodness. All right. So I want to go back to Maggie.

Teenage Maggie. You started her, is it like a blog for One Direction or did you say Twitter account? It was a Twitter account. But that's my age because when I was 13, there was no Twitter. God, I'm old. Yeah. So you started that and where did it go from there? Because you've obviously loved the internet for a very long time. Oh, yes.

I have spent almost like a decade on it and, you know, that's almost half my life, which is strange to think about. But, yes, I had this One Direction Twitter. From there I did have my own blog as well, actually. It was on Blogspot. It had a few different name iterations which are quite cheesy but I will share with I will share them with you now you're very lucky Claire so it first was called cosmic thread and that was kind of like a play on you know I don't know

something spacey but also you know because I love fashion thread like threads and clothes and then afterwards it got changed to the misfitted so again kind of a reference to clothes being not like you know not fitting but also not fitting in in society in whatever ways that kind of takes form so I had that I was also quite active on tumblr which was also a blogging site which you know made me think I was so indie and cool and kind of propelled me into that kind of community. And I mean, I'm just going to list literally every single social media site. But after that, Instagram is where I kind of found my footing and is kind of where I

still am today. So it's an interesting one. Having social media and being online has just felt so second nature for most of my life that it's actually something I'm working on unlearning now and trying to spend more time offline and kind of, you know, I used to pride myself on saying like, oh, you know, Instagram Maggie and in real life Maggie are so similar. Like I'm like the same person I am online as I am offline. And I understand, you know, we say that that's a good thing because it's me being authentic and whatnot,

but it's actually, you know, I've had to rethink that. And I'm like, well, what parts of myself am I saving for myself? Like I shouldn't have all of myself online. Like who am I offline and off screen? So it's something I'm working on nowadays. Is that because of the time that you grew up in? Would you say digital native in that you grew up with it? It's just, it's the air that you breathed. Oh yeah. And I mean, it's changing so fast nowadays. So I think I was kind of like the earlier batch of digital native. So when I was growing up, it still had like BCRcrs I had to think about that I was like what do they call it again bcrs and you know I didn't we never had like playstation or video games but we could go to the library and borrow computer games so growing up it was pretty

offline but when I hit my early teen years for sure like, like I was on, I was on, I was online quite a lot and it just hasn't really stopped because, you know, that's the space I work in now. That's the space that we socialize in. It's just so second nature. Yeah. And do you think that has an effect on your mental health in a negative way or is it a positive thing? Where do you see it? It's interesting because I think that's the first thing that people kind of link up like social media is bad for your mental health and of course there are so many studies that relate it to you know negative body image and negative like mental health issues and there are like a plethora of problems that can come with it. Honestly though, in terms of like body image

and whatnot, like self-esteem, I wouldn't say that it's played a massively negative part in my life because the thing is, this is very optimistic, but again, with Instagram, for instance, like you are in power of what you see. You actually have some autonomy of who you follow. And I kind of, not eye roll, but I wish people would kind of take more ownership and responsibility over that. It's just very easy to just say like, oh, Instagram's terrible for your mental health or your body image. But it's like, you have some control there. And I'm not blaming individuals, of course, because algorithms are so sneaky and whatnot. but I think it can be a good place and I don't want people to just disregard it completely. For me, I think it's just that like increase of screen time and that

reliance on my phone that I'm worried about. But that's another story. Yes, the addiction part of it, designed that way way how is it that you structure it so that instagram can be really good thing for your mental health i wish i was better so you know i think i have friends who have really lovely rules like switching off at 7 or 8 p.m every night keeping their phone in a different room i remember my friend telling me a few months ago um who also is kind of in the content creation space and she's like oh yeah I take weekends off so like I don't go on Instagram and I don't take photos and and this was only a few months ago but I was like what do you mean that sounds like

ridiculous I can't imagine ever doing that and lo and behold I've been kind of doing that from time to time and it's just very nice to have that physical distance between you and your phone or the apps. And I know maybe for some people listening to this, this might sound a little bit ridiculous, like, oh my goodness, Gen Z can't even step away from their phone or an app for a day. But I think the thing is, it's just like you mentioned, Claire, like almost like air. It's how how we communicate it's how I personally see the world like I have for so many years like walk through the world thinking at times like how can I document this will this make a good photo and that is not a nice way to live to be honest

like seeing the world through a camera lens in a way so I do think this is a very real thing that a lot of people do go through. So for me, I'm just like remembering how nice offline things are. And you know, when you're with a friend, you're not going to be thinking about your phone and it's just about being involved in more activities that make you feel that way. What it feels like rather than what it looks like, right? Completely. Which I think is, yeah, something I'm really working on in general to remembering to sit in myself, not necessarily exactly as you said, seeing it from the outside because often those things that are supposed to feel good and look good often may look good

but don't feel good. But what does feel good is a face mask with my hair, you know, washed, sitting, I don't know, watching like suddenly 30 on the couch. Yes. You know, that feels good and that party where you ostensibly look perfect and everyone looks perfect may not feel good in it, you know. So I wanted to go back again. So you've been creating content,

you've got your blogs going. What is it about fashion? Because fashion's a huge part of your identity. I think I can guess this question, but I'll ask it anyway. What is it? Why fashion? Why is it there in your life? It's funny because it's actually not something I was interested in for a long time. Early teen years, did not care about fashion. I had this period when I was in year eight. So that was when I was about 13, 14. Every single weekend, I would wear the same blue hoodie. I did not care. I had no differentiation. It was just clothes to me, honestly, which I think is interesting because when you talk to a lot of fashion people, they'll be like, yes, from a young age, I threw fashion shows and runways and I was always in my mom's wardrobe, et cetera. I

didn't have any of that, to be honest. I have no idea why, but I just wasn't that phased by clothes. I think, again, being online in these blogging communities and seeing, I think the biggest thing for me was seeing women or girls, to be honest, my age being interested in it. That made me feel like, oh, I have a voice here. I can be interested in this because seeing magazines or even, I don't know, to a lesser extent, but things on TV and movies didn't resonate much with me. Perhaps it's a representation issue because I didn't see myself being reflected. But yeah, entering that kind of online space made me interested in fashion. And for me, it's interesting now because we love self-expression and it's just such like, ugh, duh, but it's tangible.

Like it's something that you have power over every single day, what you choose to close your body in. And I think that's just so special that we get to do that. Completely. Where did your journey start? I hate that word, but anyway, where did your journey start with hate that word but anyway where did your journey start with looking at sustainability in fashion I mean it's a bit embarrassing as well because yes I am someone who I would consider myself a slow fashion advocate right but I had this period for a few years I

think maybe others can relate where I would have heard drips and drabs about fashion sustainability. I think I did a uni project on it. I used to tutor. So I helped one of my students do an oral presentation on it. And I had these facts in my back pocket and stuff, but I literally, it felt like another social issue that's out there in this big, bad world. And it was something I didn't really care about, which sounds terrible, but that's the truth, right? It was this terrible thing that's happening in our world. And I was like, oh, that sucks. But I didn't actually feel that correlation between my own life and what was happening out there. It changed selfishly when I started. This is like, I'm embarrassed to admit this, Claire. I don't know. It feels so self-centering, but I think that's the thing with a lot of these social issues.

You do need that personal connection or that pull sometimes to get involved. So I will tell you anyway. But yeah, in my Instagram days, I was being gifted quite a bit of clothing from fast fashion brands. And in my personal life, I was never a massive shopper. So, you know, it was so fun receiving all these sparkly new things in the mail. But at the same time, when I was ripping open these like plastic bags, I felt so icky and wrong in myself, like it didn't feel right. And that's honestly, you know, I interrogated that

feeling and I was like, hey, actually, like, this is why I feel yucky about it. And I kind of allowed myself to explore those difficult feelings. Because of course, I think if you ask most people, yeah, people care about work and rights and care about the environment. It's just very hard to marry that up with your own, I guess, purchasing decisions and what you do. So I decided to kind of interrogate that. And then what did you discover when you interrogated it?

It sucks. Like it sucks. Like the fashion industry at the moment sucks. And like, I don't want any part to do with that because, you know, we talk about self-expression as, you know, how clothes look on you, but it is also a reflection of yourself and your values, right? And I don't feel good when I know that the clothes that I'm wearing haven't been made properly or like the workers who have made the clothes haven't been treated properly. That's kind of what I really tapped into for myself. And, you know, you want to feel good in your clothes.

That goes for style, that goes for the way the clothes fit, but it also counts for like the values behind it. Absolutely. Why do you live your life the way that you do with this really strong sense of self-awareness and integrity and, you know, examining the choices that you make, like that's a massive thing at 23. I think there are a lot of like, you know, people in their 60s and 70s who still haven't got there. That is very interesting that you said that. Thank you. It's funny because I have friends that I see who, I mean,

two come to mind and they're both vegan, right? And it is so commendable, but almost unbelievable how staunch they are in their values that one day they learn about veganism and then they're like, that's right. I'm committing to that for the rest of my life. That terrifies me. So what I skipped over in that nice kind of Instagram journey of quitting fast fashion was like, there was a good year. I would say that I felt so torn in the sense of like, I had these thoughts about fast fashion bubbling in the back of my mind. But at the same time, I didn't want to take that step forward and I didn't want to commit to it because that's scary.

I don't like definitive labels. And I was very nervous about, well, if I start this slow fashion journey, people are going to judge me if I stuff up. I can never make a mistake, all that stuff. So it's very nice that you think I'm very strong in my beliefs and I act on them. But to be honest, no. that was so rude of me. Like I don't consider myself an environmentalist or anything, you know, like I still get takeaway coffee cups in cups and we don't compost at home and then there's all these things that I'm not great at. So that's the honest truth.

And I do think, you know, focusing on one thing makes it easier. So right now my focus is fashion. And, of course, I stuff up still and whatnot, but it's so daunting, this whole world of being perfect and everything. Oh, that's womanhood especially. I mean, but a human thing, but especially for women. Completely. Be perfect.

You know, what is everyone else going to think of you if you don't do everything perfectly? And sometimes that can stop you from doing anything. Whereas that lovely advice about, you know, being sustainable and everything, you don't have to do everything perfectly. We just need everyone to do things a little bit well. Completely. And actually my friend had this lovely bit of advice for me. So I'm pescatarian now, but I tried to do Veganuary, which is when you be vegan for January. It's a very clunky portmanteau. But anyway, and I was like, oh my God, being vegan, that's hectic. Every single meal for the rest of your

life. And she was like, no, you just need to think about the next meal. What's for lunch? That's it. That's the extent, right? Same goes for fashion. It's not all the clothes for the rest of your life. It's like, oh, like my next outfit is or my next purchase is this. So it's nice to break things down in manageable chunks. I really like that. And nothing finite.

Just because you decide to have a meal that has less meat or no meat or cheese, Maggie. Oh, my favorite. I know. Vegan cheese. I know. Just doesn't cut it. Shouldn't say that, but it just doesn't. Maybe it will eventually.

For one day. Yeah. But I think there's something in that massively being open to having your mind changed, being kind to ourselves and making little changes rather than thinking it has to be all or nothing, which I feel like I've done in my head before, you know, done an all or nothing kind of proposition. I guess I wanted to ask you why you are though clearly someone that thinks deeply about their choices in the world and it doesn't mean you always enact perfectly on everything but why are you that way why do you self-examine you know

why are you creative oh that's a nice question I've never I guess explicitly thought about it right we don't I mean maybe people do but like know, interrogating why we are the way we are to that much detail. I mean, I think I'm very naive and I view this world through almost like a rom-com lens, you know, like a very movie-esque lens where I know Jen said copped a bit of slack for it with this term that we coined maybe a year or two ago, main character energy, right? Which is encouraging people to view their lives as if they are the main character and you are like, I guess, the center of your own universe in a non, I guess, overly self-centered way, if that makes sense. I just think it's a waste not to live life as well as you can. And by well, I don't mean hitting all your goals and being successful, but just being true to yourself and really living in your body and letting yourself feel all these emotions. That's why I love crying. Even my psych was like, being angry isn't a bad emotion.

There aren't any bad emotions. We just feel them. And I'm like, that is so powerful. What are we doing if not just experiencing emotion on this earth, right? And I just think there are so many interesting things out there. And I know, I feel like I'm just dumbing it down and just saying, like, I don't know, these kind of frivolous ideas of things are important. Ideas are important. Like, I just want to learn them. I just want to know more about them. Like, isn't that just a nice thing to do as a human? Like, I don't really prescribe to having like a purpose on this earth or things like that. That just feels very overwhelming. For me, it's just like the little things that I can do in my day, which is just

feel emotions, feel stuff, learn stuff, think things. Like, oh my goodness, I feel like a sim saying that. No, that's so exactly it. I know you said you think it's frivolous or it could be perceived as that but I do think that's our conditioning and maybe living in a patriarchal kind of view of things right that emotions are frivolous even this podcast when I tell people it's about emotions that's it I had all of these problems with admitting that that's what it's about like talking about people's lives and emotions because that sounds wishy-washy or something. Yeah.

But you're absolutely right. That is it. That's all we're here to do. Yeah. Just feel things. Feel things. Be passionate about things. Yeah.

Be angry about things. Be devastated by things. Be amazed and in awe of things, you know, and curious. Like what else is there? It's that simple and that complicated. you know? It's that simple and that complicated. I love the way that you said that. It's completely true. Like, I shouldn't be ashamed of just saying that kind of basic wishy-washy answer because that is completely how I feel. Like, that's it. That's it. And it doesn't have to be anything more or anything less than that, I think. Completely. Like that's it. That's it. And it doesn't have to be anything more

or anything less than that, I think. Completely. Do you find it difficult walking through the world as someone who is very sensitive to emotions? Yes and no. I mean, even when you were saying like walking through the world, right, I am someone who will like sing kind of on the streets. Thank God this is an audio podcast. No one else had to see that weird dance move I just did. I loved it. I wish they could all see it.

Like I don't know, like with that sensitivity and that willingness to feel deeply comes this romanticisation of life. That's kind of what I was trying to get with a get out with the main character energy like this morning I took a 15 minute walk just before work outside and the sky was blue and the leaves were turning red I saw this half open mandarin on the ground that gave me joy like little things it's it's literal things and sometimes I will kind of dance down the street awkwardly if there's no one around or you know I will mouth words as I'm running and just feel really good in that moment so yeah yeah I would say that's connected with sensitivity

and stuff but it's just like nice to feel deeply and nice to kind of just take every little thing for granted. I think I was never one to really actively practice gratitude in the way of like writing down things and whatnot. But I think it's also just noticing things that feel like they just feel nice and feel good. Yeah, it makes everything feel special, like everything. Completely. Yeah. There's a beautiful writer and artist called Chanel Miller.

Have you seen her work? I've seen the book, but I'll let you describe it. I haven't read it. Yeah. So her book, No, My Name is ostensibly about her sexual assault and detailing those experiences. So when I picked it up, I thought this is going to be a hugely intense kind of dark book and how am I going to do this? And then I started reading it and she absolutely is exactly that person, noticing everything. And then when you go to look at her Instagram, she's an artist and that's it.

She just illustrates noticing things like a half open mandarin on the ground or a dog who's standing there next to her owner while her owner chooses between two flowers and she's imagining the dog's going, choose the pepper one. You know, just like tiny, tiny little things about life that once you see them, they add up to that's it. Like that's where the joy is. It doesn't have to be in the big awards or the success, you know, or whatever we think is success, right, which keeps me going, I think, completely. One of my really good friends, Natalie, actually kind of worded this

in a different way, which I love. We got to travel together a couple of years ago, so it's honestly stuck with me since then. And it was like these little moments that we're talking about, right? They're almost like secrets between her and the universe. She is the only person in all of human history that is witnessing this from her point of view, right? So it's like from the perspective of when she's on a walk and she looks up and she's standing beneath a tree and the light shining through the leaves in a really beautiful way. Like, yeah, light shining through trees is a very common experience. But

like in that moment, she's the only one who gets to see that exact moment that will never happen again. And I think just reframing it like that, when I guess we're in a world and many of us lead lives that are very monotonous and repetitive, it's nice to break away from that. It is, right? And I think when I've had dark times in my life, those have been the times where I haven't been able to see those things. Yeah. Have you had times in your life where you have felt like that or have you sort of felt this ability to see the joy in everything? I was thinking about this as we were going on about main character energy

and whatnot. Like I'm like, boy, am I painting my life in a really nice way like it's very it's very easy I guess to just say all this and you know without the perspective of you know life sucks a lot of the time and things happen and and sometimes you know looking at leaves isn't gonna fix everything um and yeah like like low times low times are always around the corner I guess and it's an interesting one because I like being honest and stuff but some things are just hard to talk about you know like things from mental health to like family issues to you know recent like recently ish I was like diagnosed with an

autoimmune condition which is a chronic illness and it's like these things like I'm not ashamed of but I just find it very hard sometimes to dive into which I find at odds with myself as well like I'm someone who who loves sharing and I think there's so much power in being like transparent and sharing and sharing stories but yeah that's the honest truth and I'm not too sure why I feel this way well I think as well like what you were going back to some of your life it's okay for it to just be yours and you don't have to share all of it I think sometimes we have grown up with this idea that the only way to process things really is to just put it all on the table. And also I think I've found sharing about the really difficult stuff while it's happening, when I don't even know how I feel

about it yet, doesn't sit right in my bones or something like maybe in hindsight in a few years time when you can come to terms with those sorts of things I'm so sorry about that diagnosis that's really tricky yeah thank you for for saying that but I think yeah what you're saying is so right about that sharing right and especially that is amplified like times a dozen when it's like I share so much of my life online I've been so accustomed to sharing everything like you know I'll snap my breakfast I'll snap selfies of me every hour or whatever it is like it's almost this you feel this pressure expectation to share everything and and on the flip side of that it sometimes feels disingenuous

when you don't but that's not the case like that is feels disingenuous when you don't. But that's not the case. Like that is so not the case. You don't owe anyone anything, especially online. You don't owe, you know, sharing every part of yourself. And yeah, there is definitely power in also being quiet or processing things by yourself or away from the crowd and the noise. Completely. I know Glennon Doyle talks about sometimes you don't see the gold as a rider in a difficult experience until it's sat in the earth for a long time, like in your own head and heart. And sometimes it's too immediate, like the pain

of it or whatever to share right in that moment. But I guess it's like anything in life, right? Once you've processed something really difficult, you then find learning out of it. But that might not come for years. You have to kind of have gone through it, which is kind of annoying. When you go through a really hard thing, we kind of immediately just want a fix, you know, like a quick fix and then we'll be fine. And the idea that it takes years or something can be really frustrating and infuriating.

What do you do? Because I've noticed online on your Instagram you do some really beautiful self-care stuff. Do you want to talk us through some of the actual things you do that you're encouraging other people to do as well, the self-care? Yeah. I'm so glad we're talking about self-care more. And I know it gets bandied around a lot, especially on platforms like Instagram. And you'll see a lot of these carousels. And

if I'm honest, I totally understand that self-care goes beyond, I guess, the surface level things, which I will mention because this is really nice for me. But of course, I love that our conversations are talking about how self-care is setting boundaries, is saying no. It's these more definitive, I don't know, like practices that we can implement. But for me, oh my goodness, I got to bake my favorite lemon cake last night. It was so lovely to do. I know this sounds, again, these sound so small, but I'm a big fan of lighting candles. And I'm not saying this in, again, an Instagram-y, performative sense to share with anyone else. No, this is completely for me. I love tea, so I'll make multiple cups of tea for myself each day.

But I think it's the way that we've reframed these very basic everyday activities. Basically, what I've said is I cook, I drink liquid. I, you know, like make my space a little bit nicer, but it's like, no, like, oh, I'm doing these beautiful practices for myself. And like, oh, isn't it nice? I'm setting some time away for myself and I get to experience this. And I'm, I don't know, I'm taking care of myself, which is essentially self-care, I understand. But it's just reframing these nice things. Almost like, you know, if you make a cup of tea for a loved one, like that's a really lovely gesture, right?

Same if you do it for yourself. I am very much a Pisces, if you haven't caught on, like very much emotional and romanticizing of life. But yeah, it's just the small things and, you know, from skincare to buying yourself flowers at the farmer's market, like it's just treating yourself in nice small ways. Yeah, completely. It's that self-kindness I think that can sometimes go missing a lot

in our culture. We can, for some reason, I don't know what it is, particularly for women, I think it's this idea that we need to be selfless, you know, and constantly giving out to others. But as you say, it sounds so corny. You can't pour from an empty cup, right? And the more that we can encourage people to do that, I think, the better. So why writing? Why are you a writer as

well? Because obviously you're a podcaster and Instagrammer and all these beautiful things, but you also write for Refinery29. And I loved their tagline on their account, the catalyst for women and underrepresented people to see, feel and claim their power. I said that was like a three-pronged question. I guess, why do you write and why do you write for a For Honorary 29? Writing's an interesting one. I saw, I think it might've been a tweet or something and it was like, all writers kind of hate writing as well. And I'm like, yeah, like I kind of feel that. I mean, it's an interesting one because I never thought I'd be doing this.

Like I mentioned before, love reading as a child in school, enjoyed English and thrived in it. And it was something that was always there. I was co-edited at my uni magazine and doing all these little bits because I just love it. I mean, storytelling is at the core of that and it's just how nice that we can turn our words into stories to share with others, just as simple as that. And that's why I am doing it. I much prefer writing to talking. I stumble so constantly over my words. So I think there's something nice about being to edit your words on a piece of paper or rather a screen as I do now. It's almost like, well, I just have to do it. I personally actually don't write much just for myself. I don't end up,

I'm not writing a diary anymore. I actually don't write for my, yeah, just for myself, which is something that I definitely want to do because it's a weird feeling, I guess, doing something you love, but just doing it for other people. So that's something I would love to do. But I don't know, it's just the way that I think a lot of people process the world, you know, through words, through writing. And that's something that's resonated with me. Yeah. Well, you're a beautiful writer and it is like an itch. Creativity in general for me is like an itch. If I don't do it, do something about it, things go a bit pear-shaped. Have you always had that creative drive? Yes. I've always been creative, but also had a lot of fingers in many pies. I've never been really tied down

to one thing. As you mentioned, I love fashion. I love a bit of photography, writing, podcasting. It's a lot and it's kind of daunting to just do one thing sometimes. And I like to keep busy. I mean, I was very much like a teacher's pet, like always trying really hard. I think just wanting to do my best has been a constant throughout my whole life. Like it hasn't really changed. And right now, like I'm happy with what I'm doing and I love learning and I love like my writing that is improving so much each time. Like I'm learning so much from those around me and reading more and just learning more, which is a nice feeling. I love that feeling of not knowing or like being bad at something. I went to an AFLW game like a couple months ago and it was the best atmosphere, especially because I just did not understand what was going on. And it was just kind of nice to sit in that. I mean,

like, oh my gosh, like what is going on here? But I love it. Yeah. It's just like understanding that you could constantly learn and there's constantly stuff that you can discover and find out more about. And that's like exactly goes back to what we were talking about before, right? That the world is just so full of so much. What advice would you give? And this is a very corny question to end the podcast on, but I think it is super valuable. What advice would you give to the little Maggie's of the world, the 13 people who are going to one day suddenly be 30, who, you know, in that, in that show, in that TV, in like film, she wants to be a magazine editor, right? And when she suddenly wakes up and is one, what advice would you give to those girls, especially who want to emulate the kind

of career that you've got? What advice would you give them? That's so cute. I just had a little montage running through my head of me as Jenna Rink in Suddenly 30, but it's just me like, and I've got that fun stripy dress on and whatnot. That was a lovely little daydream. Sorry, Claire. Honestly, this is the advice that I give myself day to day and it's something that I'm working on. But it's like, we spend so much time thinking about our past and thinking about the future and our dreams and all these great stuff that like, yeah, we do miss out on what's happening just right now and just being present. Like it is so difficult. You know, we have so many things that we're worried about or

focused about or even excited about to some extent, but it's just like, oh, like how nice would it be if we could just be really present, live in the present and give the day, give the hour that you are living in, the respect that it deserves and kind of honoring this time that, yeah, we won't actually get back. Because again, it comes, I guess, back to we're here just to live. Like there are no strings attached, there are no things we have to do. We're just here to live and to feel our emotions. And you have to be present, I guess, to do that. And it's something I'm definitely working on nowadays, but it's, I guess, what I wish I knew

when I was younger as well, because there was always that little bit of like, when I was 13, I was like, I can't wait to be 17. When I was 17, I was like, I can't wait to be 19. And it's just that constant looking forward or looking backwards. And it's like, well, I am happy being here. 22 is my favorite number. And when I said goodbye to being 22 years old, I was devastated for so long. And I was like, why? Being 23 is the same. same and it's also lovely and there are lovely things to find in every moment in every age again I'll probably I roll listening back to this in whatever a decade or something being like 23 as a child and I do agree but yeah oh I love that so much I think you're right I think that more that we listen to young people because sometimes

I think life can batter and bruise people as they get older. But it's still the same. Yeah. That's the advice. That's it. It's still, that's what saves you, being in the present, finding those little joys. So, all right.

Thank you so much, Maggie. I have just absolutely loved this conversation. Where can people find you I know on is it yeemags is that how you say it oh I mean it actually is probably how you pronounce it I do say yeah magso um which is y-e-m-a-g-z on instagram I love it oh actually one final thing I noticed so because your this your surname when say it, is Maggie Zhao. But in Chinese, is it Zhao? Yeah.

Is that how you spell it? Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Claire, you nailed that. Thanks, Meg. It's an interesting one, hey, so we won't let this go for too long. But, yeah, I do kind of pronounce my last name as Zhao, which I always thought was quite westernizing of it.

But when I brought it up with my mom, she's like, no, in Cantonese, it's kind of similar to that actually. So I'm like, well, that's nice. I can keep my last name, but I am very happy to be called Zhao as well. Okay, cool. Excellent. I love that. All right.

Thank you so much. I will definitely go and check out Maggie's writing as well on Refinery29 and her Instagram account. And thank you so much. This is so valuable. Thank you so much, Claire, for having me. It's been a pleasure. You're welcome.

You've been listening to a podcast called Tons with me, Claire Tonti, and this week with the incredible Maggie Zhao. For more from Maggie, you can head to her Instagram account. That's yaymags, Y-E-M-A-G-Z. Or you can also head over to Refinery29 where she is a writer there as well. She also has a wonderful podcast called Culture Club with her friend Jasmine Wallace. And it's just a deep dive into their love of the internet, their lives, and a look at all of the most recent issues and pop culture things. So highly recommend going to check out that podcast too. And that's it for me. If you want more from me, you can head to

at Claire Tonti on Instagram. And I'm also over on my website, claire20.com. I also have another podcast called Suggestible that comes out every Thursday with my husband, man, James Clement, where we discuss movies and TV shows and book recommendations and food recommendations and really just make fun of each other a lot and complain about parenting. So that comes out every Thursday and that's called Suggestible. You can follow along with the show at TonsPod or with Suggestible at SuggestiblePod, both run by the wonderful Maisie. And as always, thank you to Roar Collings for editing this week's episode. Please rate, review, subscribe, all the things. It really helps us to be discovered. And if you loved this episode,

share it with a friend. That'd make so much difference to me. It really helps me to keep making this show. All right. Talk to you soon. Bye. I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which I create, speak and write today, the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation, and pay my respect to their elders past, present and emerging, acknowledging that the sovereignty of this land has never been ceded.