TONTS. - The Dark Underbelly of TikTok

Episode Date: July 27, 2021

My old friend, teacher Martin McGauran, never expected to be talking to parents about TikTok, Only Fans or graphic online content when he began running workshops on how best to use technology and the internet in primary school classrooms over 8 years ago. A qualified Google educator, incredible teacher and footy guy, Marty is warm, engaging and an expert in talking to kids and school communities about how to be safe, smart, empowered and kind while using the internet. Together with his sister Carley who is a psychologist, he has created a company called Inform and Empower: Cyber Safety Education that helps schools and parents navigate the incredibly difficult task of protecting and educating our kids through issues that have literally no parenting or educational blue print. Their talks particularly for parents are so valuable especially when it comes to social media and the impact of pornography on our young people and I learnt so much from this conversation.Subscribe here for – tontsnewsletterYou can find me on instagram @clairetonti or at www.clairetonti.comYou can email me with suggestions for episode topics and guests to [e-mail]. Feel free to leave me a voice memo to be included in the show.A big thank you to this wonderful team:Editing - RAWCollingsTheme Music - Avocado JunkieGraphic Design - Emma HackettPhotography - Anna RobinsonStyling - Hilary Holmes Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, it's Tons here. I have a big, scary conversation today that I also think is really important and I want to start with the whole crux of it, which is my fear that I will wake up one day and I'll have lost my son to the internet. He's five now and shiny eyed and funny and so imaginative, but one day he will be 15. I've become obsessed recently with how I can help him be safe when he finds himself online with an addictive app like TikTok or Facebook or Instagram, or even if a mate shares a link to something that is violent or graphic and he's alone, trying to understand and navigate what he's seeing and most probably not going straight to his mum and saying, hey, what's this? And can

you explain it to me? So wouldn't that be lovely if that was the case? Very deep, big breath here. To me, it feels like if I gave him an iPad now and I didn't talk to him about it and he went up to his room and he was alone, to me, it feels like dropping him in Vegas by himself and saying, you'll be right. See you in a few hours. But I don't want to not allow him to use the internet. It's a miraculous place too. I don't want my kids to be disconnected or uneducated. I want them to use technology in a way that makes their lives better. I mean, I work on the internet for goodness sake, but that idea of them using technology in a positive way feels kind of like a pipe dream.

As an older millennial, my biggest complaints were around the impact of The Little Mermaid and other movies just like that one on my sense of self. And I'm not taking that away from us, but what will our kids be talking about in 20 years? And what will they say about the world they're living in now? And how it has built their own inner voices and worldview? And really their ability to enter into meaningful and satisfying healthy sexual relationships as adults. This conversation takes bravery, especially as a parent.

A huge amount. It takes sitting with some very uncomfortable truths. So I decided to call up a very old friend, Marty, to help us find some answers to some of this really hard stuff. I've known Martin McGarren for coming on 15 years. He's always been a barrel of fun and this unique combination of footy guy and entertainer, who is also incredibly smart and kind. For many years, Marty was a primary school teacher who wore crazy socks with his work shoes and loved to kick the footy around with his mates and his students. He now runs a company educating teachers and parents and kids on the absolute minefield

that is technology in 2021. Marty started out around eight years ago thinking his primary focus would be educating teachers on how to make the most of their class set of iPads, encourage them to have a go at Movie Maker or GarageBand, and then maybe pop a few notes in about keeping your password safe and stranger danger. Inform and Empower, which is what his company is now called, has become so much more than that. Together with his sister Carly, who is a psychologist and a mum, Marty's main job is to unpack the impact of social media and the internet on our young people and help schools and parents deal with the fallout, as well as give the kids themselves as much information, tools and strategies to navigate their rapidly changing digital world. All right, getting to the nitty gritty. In other

words, much of what Carly and Marty do centers on the prevalence of pornography and the ease at which explicit and graphic content can be shared and discovered. I thought I knew a lot about what Marty was going to talk about today, but my mind was thoroughly blown. If you are a parent or planning to be one, or actually just a human trying to understand more about your own internet use, this episode is for you. Here he is, Marty. My first years of teaching, Instagram had a little bit of traction in sort of 2013, 14 amongst primary school students in that 12, 11, 12 year old.

That is nearly 10 years ago. Yeah, I know. How is that? Wow. And that was really where it started, some kids getting into that space. But the – what's the word I'm thinking of? What's that mathematical I should know? Trajectory or something?

Trajectory. But you know where it goes up really? Come on, help me out here. Like a steep graph? Steep graph. Is that what you're talking about? Listen to us. The future.

Exponential. Exponential. There you go. Got it. The teaching, the future minds. Yeah. We're very clever. That's why I dropped out of economics.

Exponential growth of that influence of that social media, and my gosh, it is absurd to see just in that sort of six, seven years from what I sort of got into it. In my head, I sort of thought it would be more teaching the ins and outs and the do's and don'ts, and that was what I thought cyber safety sort of was, like kids, keep your passwords safe. Don't talk to strangers. Don't do this, do this. And as I've started to work closely with a lot of schools and you, the beauty of working with so many schools is you're not in a little island of just the school

you teach at. You hear so many stories from principals and now what we're hearing is the challenges are growing exponentially because of what kids are exposed to. So I'm now seeing what I do in schools is more behavioural and more discussion and a lot more nuance than just coming in and telling them or scaring them that they shouldn't be doing stuff and they should be doing things. So what are the things that you're seeing? Can you think of any?

Yeah, well, the big ones is the exposure to sexual content. That's a big one. Yeah, pornography. So there's layers upon layers of it. Primary school, so here's an example. We're hearing explicit image sharing amongst primary school students is happening. It's not something we sort of years back, no, it's a secondary issue,

sending nudes and dick pics in secondary school. Yeah, that's something maybe 13, 14, 15. We now, and I really only work in primary schools, it wouldn't be sort of a month go by where I'll get to a school to do the presentations for the day and the principal will pull me aside and sort of say, by the way, we had this incident happen involving a 12-year-old, 11-year-old sharing explicit images.

Oh, my gosh. And the influences that has led to that, it's pretty clear we're talking, so TikTok's probably, I'm on a real bandwagon around the age exposure to TikTok, among other lots. So Snapchat and Instagram have their challenges for sure, but TikTok particularly because do you use it at all, TikTok? No, I don't. No, I only watch videos that pop up on my Instagram from TikTok.

So I get the vibe of it. Yeah, I haven't actually launched into that one or Snapchat. Yeah. But I can kind of see. So they're short videos, right? Yeah. So what's the difference between TikTok? Because I feel like we know Instagram – well, I know Instagram is sharing images.

But what's the difference there with TikTok? So let's go Snapchat for a tick. The issue we see with Snapchat in primary schools is that disappearing or ephemeral, I think the word they use, messaging. So Snapchat, as people listening would know, the whole idea is send something, it's only got five or ten seconds. When primary school kids are using these apps, their little developing minds have no concept of the fallout from sending something for five or ten seconds.

And a perfectly clear example, and I share this with parents constantly when we're trying to encourage them to delay access, a group of girls at a primary school just earlier this year that we were working with and the principal had said through Snapchat there was some really horrific chat going on and one of the girls unleashed, which is becoming a term these days, go kill yourself in a message to another girl at the school. And these are 12-year-olds.

And they'd taken a photo of the picture so there was evidence of it and the girl's response was simply, oh, but it was only for five seconds. So you can see how a 12-year-old brain doesn't compute that sending something horrific or nasty because Snapchat puts it in a way that it's gone, it's just there. It's just a quick link. Yeah, it doesn't matter. It's not important.

But as an adult brain, we can sort of comprehend that a message as short as it is the impact on the person the fallout is so much greater and and so yeah one of our big ones is just challenging parents to have a look at when you expose them to social media so that's snapchat t. Gosh, I could go on. Do go on. This is where I'm here for. Yeah, so it's big one. TikTok is, yeah, short videos, but it's an absolute melting pot of content. So there's funny, inane, grandpa's dancing and hilarious stuff mixed into that. And here's the nuanced part of it.

They have, so on Instagram, you know how if you're scrolling Instagram, you see the content of the people you follow with a few advertisements put in and then it'll even get to the little reminder saying you're all caught up. Okay, so they've set that up in that way. TikTok's different. It's got an infinite scroll, meaning that when you get on there, the videos you see are not from users that you follow.

It's anyone who's got public content, and that's the big challenge. You put a primary school-aged child, let alone a teenager, on TikTok, and the content they're seeing is from the hundreds of millions of users. And it's adult content. It is the most sexualised. It's the most graphic drug sex references mixed in amongst sort of the funny stuff. Like the cat videos because that's all I've seen,

like the ones that people are bobbing in a room to a song or something. Oh, absolutely. And there's hilarious stuff on there. But all it takes, and this is where that sort of crazy algorithm takes hold, is when if they're scrolling and the moment you understand elements of this from Instagram and any social media is that if you pause on a particular video for a little bit, the algorithm starts changing and so something that might be a little bit sexual in nature

and a kid curiously sort of pauses or clicks on that profile, suddenly the algorithm starts, oh, they like that content, let's buy videos down, put something a little bit more and then it starts getting curated. And once again, these are all people they don't follow. So little 11-year-old Johnny is on TikTok scrolling through content from any other user around the globe with an infinite scroll, meaning there's no all caught up, if that makes sense.

So literally next video, next video. So there's the elements of the time suck, of course, of it, but then the content that is on there with really loose TikTok, loose moderating in terms of what gets through there because they don't have to be child-friendly because they're not a child-friendly platform. Right. So is that how they get around it, that they've got an age limit

that you're supposed to stick to? Yeah. Is it over 13 or something? Correct. So that's worth understanding that the 13 years of age is – it's in the terms of service of Snapchat, Instagram, Facebook. They all have that 13, but it's purely based on the legalities of when you can collect the data of individuals.

So it's just a legal minimum age. And a lot of parents hear that 13 and think it's like a suitability rating like a like a pg movie does that make sense it makes total sense so they say oh 12 year old i'll let them watch pg movies so yep snapchat's 13 or and it'll be fine it's fine but absolutely not because it's all mixed in there's not like an r-rated version that you can allow over 18s to see and then under 18s see different content. It is literally everything thrown into one.

And the cross-promotion, here's another one just to, if I haven't convinced you. Marty's campaign against TikTok. I am on board. Yeah. So are you aware of OnlyFans? Do you know OnlyFans? I've heard of OnlyFans, correct.

Yes, I have. And that's sort of, okay, you explain it, you'll be explaining it. No, go, tell me your version. Okay, so my understanding, not that I've ever looked at it, but that you can choose who you follow and you can pay people to do things through OnlyFans, is that correct? And it's videos and content and stuff like that. Close, yeah, it is.

So it's a subscription platform. It's effectively, a nice way to put it is it's videos and content and stuff like that? Close. Yeah, it is. So it's a subscription platform. It's effectively, a nice way to put it is it's the Uber of porn because anybody can create their own content like Uber. Anyone can drive a car. And you then sell subscriptions to you. So it's not like you go on a porn website and there's just lots of videos of anything that you click on. You go on to OnlyFans. And if you like a particular man or woman, you follow them and they set their price.

So often it's like $10 a month and you get all their content and they'll just self-produce videos and pictures. Okay. And what we're seeing now, and this came up recently with a fellow cyber safety educator who I was chatting to, dealing with some high school students over in Western Australia, girls who decided it might be a good idea to create their own OnlyFans account

and start selling the content. Imagine how that ended up because the content, most of it is highly sexual, pornography, hardcore, softcore, whatever, you pitch yourself at, but there's no barrier to entry. With a smartphone and a camera, you can literally be creating your own. And the money's the lure, of course, because they say, oh, gosh, I can make like a fortune.

Oh, if I get 100 subscribers per month times, yep. So as a teenager, instead of working at Maccas, you can, oh, gosh. Yeah, and the awareness of this platform is huge. So as a teenager, instead of working at Maccas, you can, oh, God. Yeah, and the awareness of this platform is huge. I was only chatting to my 15-year-old nephew last week and he said, oh, yeah, someone on OnlyFans got a million dollars in, like, I don't know, again, where he's getting his info from, but the fact that it's all being chatted about by teenagers,

oh, they earned a million dollars in their first month on OnlyFans because they had some huge following elsewhere. And going back to TikTok, you'll see a lot of sexualised content on TikTok. They can't have full-blown pornography on there. They do draw the line there, but they'll have close enough to it, but then they'll have links to OnlyFans as in they use that to promote themselves. If you want more of my content, head to OnlyFans. So it's sort of leading kids down particular pathways.

Oh, absolutely. And the influences, yeah, on that sexual content, we're seeing the fallout being huge. So what is the fallout of that? I know this is a really heavy discussion. Yeah, it is. It's heavy and big. Yeah, it's big.

The big thing is it's evolving so rapidly that we're seeing little bits of it and the pieces haven't all been put together because it is moving. It's all so new, right? Yeah, absolutely. Some of the real horrific things, and we're seeing this, is obviously around the big topic, which has been amazingly brought to the forefront around consent. So sexual content online, there is no consent.

Sexual content online, majority of it involves violence, majority violence towards women. So how young people, if they're getting their sexual education from this, there is no way their little brains can not be influenced in a negative way as they start their own sexual relationships and as they start getting out into the world. If they've seen, like to be graphic, we're talking about choking, talking about grabbing and all of these things that in pornography

is just seen as that's what you see. The difference being what they are exposed to in the pornography sense is so out of the realm of what we, from our generation, 20, 30 years ago. So it's not like looking at a Playboy mag or something. And that's the thing. Their first exposure, whether accidental or searching up words because they're curious and a brother or an older sister, brother, says to them oh you should

check out this website their first exposure won't be what we may have seen as as a nude picture and a curiosity sort of thing it is going to be fully blown hardcore pornography that is so accessible and you hear anecdotes from emergency wards of young girls being admitted with injuries, performed doing sex acts that they've seen or they think are normal because both of them. That's what they've seen. Yeah, that's what they've seen. They've both seen.

So it's not even just men or women, young men and women, I suppose. Yeah, absolutely not always. It's both exposure from girls and boys. The girls see it and, again, think that's how they should act. The boys see it and think that's how they should act. And that forms their norms. And I guess parents these days, I don't envy yourself being a parent of littlies, myself not having my own kids, but working with so many parents, the challenges around the conversations you have to have now that you never used to. Our parents probably could get away with sort of almost having just a bit

of a basic sex talk maybe, if any, but knowing there weren't lots of influences otherwise. Like you're not going to get another sex education back in the 80s apart from maybe a playboy magazine or talk in the school yard. Yeah, and there'll be something, a presentation at school and that'll be all right. Yeah. They'll be fine.

They'll figure it out. Exactly. a presentation at school and that'll be all right. Yeah. They'll be fine. They'll figure it out. Yeah. Exactly. So I feel parents almost have to work doubly as hard now knowing all of those influences that we can't shut down and say, oh, I'm just going to protect them and they're not going to see any of it. And the work I do, I co-present with my sister, Carly, who's a psychologist and a mum, And a big part of our work with parents in primary schools is conversations,

how important they are because kids who can unpack. So we have to almost say it's inevitable that young people will see pornography, that they are going to be exposed to it. As much as that frightens and bejesus out of parents, you have to concede it's not like a if they'll see it, it's a when they'll see it. And if parents have been proactive in conversations, kids being able to unpack that, and most parents aren't comfortable chatting about it. Who?

Just casually over the dinner table, you see my face? I can see the look on your face, yeah. No, I mean, I have a little boy and a little girl, and I think, God, the stuff that, you know, we're dealing with, you get to be Batman and you get to be, you know, Robin and it's okay if everyone has different roles, you know, like eat your broccoli. Yeah. This isn't the kind of parenting gig I signed up for, you know.

It is, and it's out of the parents' comfort zone. And there's some great educators out there working in schools with parents and teachers and the kids themselves because they are actually conversations that we've never had to have that we now need to actually have. And it's new. Like there isn't really a model for how this is going to go or where this is going to lead our young people in the future. We don't have role models of our own parents talking

about the pornography chat because there wasn't that chat. Most of the time parents are blushing about just talking about the actual act itself, you know, let alone anything else around this kind of education. So what do we do? So I know you've said a little bit about having these early conversations. What should parents be aware of? What should we do?

There's definitely middle ground because I'm not out there to slander all sorts of tech. There is amazing stuff. And my interest in tech came from how much awesome things there is to create and having kids working in primary school, seeing them coding and making multimedia and recording podcasts and all of that. So I guess my middle ground is having kids using tech,

but, okay, in the online space, supervision is massive. It's not something kids can be on devices out of bedrooms. So if you're looking for a golden rule, young kids in bedrooms is the absolute recipe for challenges, for problems, for drama. So that's number one that we tell every school, every parent that we come across is that is the most simplest thing you can do. And set that up from a really early age. As you were talking about, your littlies are nowhere near that conversation.

But a small thing, parents of five and six-year-olds, is just to start that habit early that devices aren't in bedrooms. And I guess one of the things, and we still haven't touched on this, is one of those additional risks. And even though it's a small risk, it's one of the most sort of horrific risks is that online grooming and the sexual exploitation of kids online, which there's been a podcast just out recently in Australia by the Australian Counter Child Exploitation, I think they're called. It's the federal police, and they've just released a podcast series

of six or seven episodes in the last month, which they wanted to really shed the light on. This isn't something that is a one in a billion chance. They had 21,000 reports of child exploitation material in one year. In the last year, 21,000 reports of it. And unfortunately, going back to that point about devices in bedrooms, I'm dropping lots of not-so-fun anecdotes, but they were referring to one of their situations

with a young Australian person who had shared explicit images of themselves and video. And they were in their inner private room of their home, and they could literally hear the family mucking around outside in the background. So it's happening whilst the family's there, but the kids are being unsupervised and on platforms that aren't age appropriate. So yeah, the first one, supervision, is a massive one. And as Carlyly who i mentioned before as being a parent she uses the word dementing because it's tough it's hard work supervising

it's it's so much easier as you can imagine to oh i know yep here you go here's the ipad i see soon you're doing some minecraft or something you'll be right yeah and and there are there are some good technical solutions around filtering but definitely that can be put on around having kids use YouTube Kids, for example, instead of YouTube, the fully fledged version of it. So there are little safety measures you can put in place to stop younger kids being on the fully blown internet. Are they ones that you would recommend for parents to do that?

Yeah, so probably the best one and most people being in the Apple world, Apple have something called Screen Time. So Screen Time's brilliant. It's free with all and those of us as adults with an iPhone would have seen Screen Time in there in the settings where it actually gives you a little monthly report about what you've done on your screen. But what it allows you to do is have your child on an iPad or a hand-me-down iPhone, for example, but then you are able to remotely put parental supervision and say, no, they can't access YouTube. They can have YouTube Kids. So that's probably the most user-friendly, easily accessible one is what they call Screen Time, which comes with all Apple devices. It doesn't cost anything.

The amount of parents who aren't aware of it, just for lack of knowledge of it, that's definitely probably the top of the bunch. All right, and that's free. Yeah, exactly. So that's great. So that's something you can do and there's no barrier to entry for that? No, no barrier to it. There are some paid options.

There's one called Family Zone. Family Zone is more across any device. So you can put that on like your internet on your router and it controls the Wi-Fi on your home. You can have different devices. There's a small subscription for that, but that's one that's been around and I could recommend as well, Family Zone. If you've got the Apple devices, definitely Screen Time would be your go-to.

In all of the mix of this, I'm thinking that obviously this is so dangerous for kids, but kids are just small people who become big adults. And we have major problems with screen addiction ourselves as grownups. Do you see a correlation between mental health for adults as well? Do parents talk about that much with you? Yeah. It's something I do often consider working with the kids and myself being um an adult with the phone and a laptop and an ipad and all of it is that i'm personally

challenged at times with my own screen time just in my own life and with my with my wife and now time our eyes are down on screens and not focused on the person you're with so my obvious one is I've got a fully grown brain, I think. Mostly. Mostly. Don't bring my wife into that conversation. No, exactly. And to be fair, just to bring it up, Mel is an obstetrician and incredibly smart and very, very capable.

Her brain's probably well and truly developed. Mine's getting there. And just as a side note, Marty does have, well, the last time I went to your place, you had a room just for Lego for you. I do have a room full of Lego. Yeah. Where does that put me in the brain development? I think right up there.

You know, Lego master. Yeah, correct. You're just keeping all that playfulness alive, which I think is great. I don't often share that publicly. This doesn't go out publicly, does it? I'm brand. I'm owning it.. A grown man. I don't often share that publicly. This doesn't go out publicly, does it? I'm brand. I'm owning it. I'm owning it.

You sent me a video with the soundtrack and everything. I'm really impressed with it. I'm owning my Lego room. Where was I? Something about a fully grown brain. Oh, yeah, about being an adult and having a fully grown brain, but the addiction to screen time. Yeah, and how it challenges us, let alone young people.

And the Netflix doco, did you see Social Dilemma? Yes, correct. Yeah, so Social Dilemma, my take on that is it's insightful. It was obviously very Hollywood-like. Yeah, inflammatory, I guess would be the right word, like big, scary messaging, which I feel is sometimes a space that we can get into with this stuff. And then my brain just wants to shut down and go,

too hard, too big, too scary, surely it can't be that bad, bye, and I just don't want to engage. Do you know what I mean? It is. It's like the super-sized me and Seaspiracy and those that are like, whoa. Exactly, and sugar is so terrible that we should all not have any of it, you know, that kind of thing. I know.

That's an interesting one around the messaging. Do people go, not people, I say people, do these films and docos go too far that they actually aren't getting the message like you said? Yeah, because it's too big and too scary. Yeah. I wonder whether that doesn't make change in a real way because we can't, doing it to the nth degree, it's almost impossible.

Like, for instance, I always think about my phone and how much I'd love to not have one because I feel like it takes up a part of my brain that I could otherwise be doing other stuff with and I'm always conscious of it. I'm conscious where it is all the time. I weirdly find it in my pocket even when I think I haven't got it with me. I will be doing something like spending time with my kids, and I'm admitting this, and I will be thinking, when can I go back to my bedroom and have a look at Instagram?

Absolutely. I spent last week, went out of Melbourne for three days and my sole focus was to get off my phone. So I had it on, I put it on the airplane mode. I'm not sure why I didn't turn it off completely. That might have been a subconscious that I couldn't be able to have it off. Exactly. And it turned it on for a couple of times. But the amount of willpower, I literally went away with that intent last week for three days. And the amount of willpower and the amount of times I went to, as you said,

think, I'll just check, or when's the sun setting because I was going to go for a run that night. And in my head I'm like, just go. Like if it's a bit dark or not. But we almost rely on every minutia of information to come from it. Yeah. And I'll ask Google, when's the sun set? I didn't because I was in this space, but probably tomorrow I'll do that.

I'll probably ask when the sun's setting. Really? Look out the window. And if it's getting dark, go for a run. Yeah. Get out quickly. But every, yeah, what we are tethered and to have young people growing up yeah and then you hit on two interesting things there with with kids

yourself about the role the role modeling that if if that's what our kids are seeing and just chatting to family recently who have got little ones talking about their, I think, two, two- and three-year-old, how they see this mystical object in mummy and daddy's hands and mummy and daddy's eyes on it and obviously they're drawn to it because what is it that they're so drawn to? Yeah. Therefore they're drawn to it. My brother who's got a two- or three-year-old,

I should know that. Kids, they grow up so, they're just, their age is always changing. Thank you. It's really hard. As an uncle, I grow up. Their age is always changing. Thank you. It's really hard. As an uncle, I can sort of loosely give ages. Yeah. I'll be that vague one. But he's got a dumb phone.

So I went and saw him recently, and he's sacked his smartphone. So he's literally typing text messages, tapping the number one multiple times to get a V. Oh, my God, a Nokia. Yes. I love that. I think it is a Nokia branded. Nokia 3310. I'm not sure it's that one. But, my God, a Nokia. Yes. I love that. I think it is a Nokia branded. Nokia 3310.

I'm not sure it's that one. But that was mine. I'm just remembering. That was – so he's made the – it's his first child and with the thinking about he, like all of us, was on his phone, eyes on it, he thought and has made that actionable change that he's bought the dumb phone because he does not want to be on that screen in front of his little one and he sets aside time of the night.

So I think it's going to be an interesting space to watch how us as adults, whether we are going to start circling back around screen time because it's been... It's just taking over. It's taking over our lives. And I actually think I had an accident a couple of years ago where I fell over and broke my teeth. Yep.

And when I really think about it, if I'm super honest, it was because of my phone because I had my headphones in, I was listening to a podcast, I was trying to skip the ad. Yep. And I had my dog in my other hand but I was trying to do too many things at once, looked down at my screen, not at the road in front of me, and it was nighttime. What am I doing running while also looking at my phone at nighttime?

And, you know, obviously also bad timing plus a little bit of like unco-ness. Yeah. I understand. I have many weird accidents often. But I do think that was part of it. And I know that when you bring this up, often there's a lot of eye-rolling involved and like, oh, but also they're so powerful and amazing that we have this device in our pocket that gives us access to the whole world i mean that is incredible you know at the same time so i really it's it's i'm torn and i'm not

saying you have to have the answer no no but don't you think it's really interesting and i wonder where it's all leading for our parents and for our kids and for us as people. Yeah, absolutely. And I do, without being the old back in my day, I worry about kids who are getting phones in teenage years, in primary school years I should say, and not exploring those physical things that they once did and not exploring the social things that they once did.

And taking as many risks. I saw that statistic that young people are actually taking fewer risks, teenagers, in terms of in person. So they'll be taking risks online, but in person the rate of teen pregnancies and drug use and things like that is down. Ah, that's interesting. Which seems like a positive when you look at it on the surface, but when you start to unpack it, you realise it's because teenagers

are designed, their brains are firing, ready to move away from their parents and risk take, and it's a big part of their development to build resilience and work out their boundaries and understand who they are. And I'm not saying I want teenagers to go out and take drugs and have sex early and all that stuff. It's not what I'm saying. But I do think there's a big part of teenagehood that's

about exploring that side, you know, putting on like the eyeliner and like going to that party in the park and like sneaking around a little bit. If my kids listen to this later, not my kids or I'll be on to you. No, but, you know, I think that's important for our social health and development. And I wonder whether some of the rates of suicide we're seeing and mental health, I do think there might be a correlation

with that with our young people. And do you think an element of that, just thinking out loud, is that everything's documented? So every little risk, if you want to do that silly thing or muck around, it's going to be documented. Someone will have a phone and literally be capturing you. Yeah. And therefore everything you do, good, bad and the ugly,

there is a record of almost. There's not much that teens would do that's not being filmed or photographed at the time. Yeah. Or isn't a second away from someone having a phone out if somebody decides to do something. Yeah, exactly. It's interesting.

And yet there's this solo time they're having with these apps that are quite dangerous. So it's really interesting. So in your opinion, is there a safe time to give a teenager a phone? That's a loaded question. Like when do you – because obviously that's a big thing parents must be grappling with. Yeah, it is.

Once again, it's really nuanced. Obviously there's lots of variables with the child involved. But one small thing for parents that we always suggest, just a little thing, is rather than gifting, and this often happens, gifting a phone for a birthday or a Christmas, kids don't have their own money. Therefore, you make sure the phone is given to them and you own and the phone is yours because the whole idea of giving it your birthday present, oh, by the way, there's all these strings attached, give it to them at a certain time or place, but it's not a present. It's just a small little subtlety around not giving them a gift

and then them feeling, oh, but you've given me this and now you're doing all this to it. No, no, here's a phone we're providing you and you as a parent can then have more agency or control over it. Yeah, correct, without sort of – It's my house. Yeah, exactly. And it is.

And there's elements of, once again, not speaking out of turn, not being a parent myself, but hearing Carly share this message as a parent in this space, you do have to make the unpopular decisions and that's what we're unfortunately hearing and Carly works with a lot of her and in this space, you do have to make the unpopular decisions. And that's what we're unfortunately hearing, and Carly works with a lot of her clients in this space, around not being the best friend of your child. You're not there to be their best mate. And I obviously can't unpack that too much without being in that space myself. But we do know that the parents who are making the unpopular decisions and making the decisions that are in the line to use

is what kids are needing, not what they're wanting. And there's such a huge difference, obviously. Yeah, completely. But interestingly, again, referring to Carly once more, with psychology work, she talks about people in their 20s who look back at their parents who were super strict or whatever at the time and realise how amazing they were as parents. But in that moment, they hated their guts.

They hated their guts. And I guess that's something that parents need to reflect on is at that point in time you will be hated and you will be making unpopular decisions, but in the long run they'll look back on it and your kids will reflect back on it and go, that was pretty awesome actually. Because it takes more energy actually to make your kids do things. And obviously as a parent, this is so hard and it's nuanced, as you said, because different kids are different.

Some kids are more compliant than others. Some kids are more enthusiastic than others and they have different challenges health-wise and social-wise and all the things. So it's your family dynamic. And some kids, if you push too hard, push right away. So obviously this is why we have people like Kylie who are psychologists to navigate this.

But I do think in general, yeah, being that parent that's like vigilant and watching and it takes energy. It's like you were saying, it's dementing. Having to constantly be policing everything they do. Kids would hate that. vigilant and watching and it takes energy. It's like you were saying, it's dementing. Yes. Having to constantly be policing everything they do. Kids would hate that. But in hindsight, they don't know what's good for them always. Yeah, absolutely. And we do have to be that line of defence, I think.

For sure. To sum up when to get a phone, probably my best response to giving kids a smartphone, we find a lot of parents do give dumb phones to younger kids for that whole, if they need to text message or call. There's phones out there on the market that are made for that, which don't have Instagram and the internet on them. So that's one option because if kids go, oh, but I need it for safety, which might be a valid point if they're walking home from school

or whatever it might be or going between shared families and all those things, that's the first thing get them a phone that has just text messaging and phone on it right so when getting a smartphone the probably the best way to sum it up is when are you willing as a parent to have the conversations around pornography body image social media bullying friendship groups the moment you've built up those conversations, that's when you're more likely. So it's not a magic age, or I would suggest it's when you as a parent, because that might come a lot earlier. Some families might be having some amazing discussions and really rich dialogue with mature little people, and therefore a phone might be more suitable. But it comes down to if a parent's willing to have those conversations,

but if you're a head in the sand and, well, not talking about that and you just hand over a phone because they hit year seven, that's when we see, unfortunately, yeah, the proverbial hit the fan. Wow. Because it's also the other part of it is, yes, they want safety and things, but really we all know it's about keeping up with the person next to them in class, isn't it, and not being excluded. And that is the hard part.

I think that's the real crux of it for parents. I'm assuming that they've got a teenager that they don't want them to feel different and isolated and their social lives are happening online. Yeah, absolutely. And, yeah, so you have to make that concession that our kids are digitally connected in ways that we weren't and we have to concede that but not at the expense of their safety and that comes above all else.

But the whole, getting back to primary school, something we've seen work really well is where collectives of parents make decisions around TikTok or Instagram and Snapchat so that it's not just the one kid in grade five, but all my friends have Snapchat, so how am I going to be left out of everything? And we hear that, and that's absolutely spot on because there are big groups of school communities

where the parents are having kids on Snapchat and Instagram and TikTok in grade. We hear it down to the youngest of grades. But when groups of parents sort of bandy together almost and go, you know what, it's going to be easy for all of us if we, like the 10 of us because our kids all hang out, we all just go, you know what, no Snapchat and Insta and TikTok until we'll address that in high school and then make some decisions there,

but at least draw a line in the sand and make it together because you then at least take out that whole argument of but all my friends are. Yeah. That's something we've seen work really well and parents have shared that back to us and gone. They've either come to an evening of ours or they've on their own accord made that decision.

But getting that collective is awesome. That's awesome actually. I can really see that working because already it's about community, isn't it, really? Yes. And actually talking and knowing the other families who belong to your kids and whose friends they are, you know, the families are the friends of your kids. Yes. And knowing that and having that sort of connected in with their real lives

and being brave enough to understand this kind of honesty around it all and actually opening the discussion and going into the dark and getting your kids out of there rather than just hoping for the best, head in the sand. We'll just pretend it's not happening and that's fine. Yeah, and I guess the approach to that digital parenting is very much in that middle space. At one end you could have the laissez-faire, anything goes.

We clearly know that's going to be a really risky space. But the other end being sort of I'm just going to lock it down. They're not going to have a device. They're never getting this. They're never getting that. That's equally risky in so many ways because, as we know with anything, if you're not talking about it and if you're not slowly exposing them in sort of responsible age-appropriate ways, they're going to get a time.

They'll do it at a friend's place. They'll go behind your back. They're going. So it's a really, as we've said a few times, nuanced sort of middle ground rather than either end of that spectrum. Yeah, I really loved – I was looking at your website and I liked – because you do – I want to talk about something a little bit different now. You do these incursions, Thrive Online, where you go into schools

and you put on different roles. Yeah. Yeah, you do like a muddy play. Yeah. Yeah, and I saw you with a cap on being a young youth, I think, being cool. I loved it. But you have this sort of little saying, the Be Internet Awesome, which is about being smart, kind, alert, brave and strong.

Yeah. Yeah. Can you tell me a little bit about what you do in that instance? So let's go, we've done all that heavy lifting, all of that big, tough conversation. What are the fun stuff? What can we teach our kids in that space? How can we empower them?

Yeah. Well, I often, so those five words, they come from an online program that I use, which funnily enough Google of all people came up with. But the reason I highlight smart, alert, strong, kind, and brave is they're really positive. And when I work with kids, it's those conversations I've had with you now, they sort of form the why. But obviously, I don't go in and unload on kids around the internet being the most horrific

21- Scary place. Yeah. Did you know, grade threes, there were 21,000 reports of child sexual exploitation material? Hands up if you knew that. So no, that's not my opening line to grade threes? There were 21,000 reports of child sexual exploitation material. Hands up if you knew that. So, no, that's not my opening line to grade threes. It's why I do what I do, but using that language of getting them to see the internet as – because I effectively go in and something

I love to do with kids is I'll play this little game called Sit, Squat, Stand, and I say to them, I'm going to put something up on the board, a whole range of gaming websites and YouTubers and all sorts of things. If you really love it, stand up. If you're not, sit down. And in the middle is squatting. So I'll put them up and the kids lose their minds.

I'll put like, do you know PewDiePie? Yes, correct. PewDiePie, the biggest YouTuber out there. And the kids leap up and then I'll put on a Preston, Preston Plays and all these different YouTubers. I'll put on Fortnite and engage the kids in their world first. So every time I go into a school, I engage them in what they know and love first and then almost work backwards from there and go,

because you love all of that, this is why the next hour and a half, whatever I spend with the kids, is so important that we start to think about being really smart, being alert, kind, brave, et cetera, because of what you do online, you love so much. I'm not here to tell you to get off all of those things because that would be an absurd message to take into schools. But it's, okay, what are you doing? How can we sort of reframe what they're doing online by getting them to think?

And critical thinking is probably above all else what we want our kids to be doing online. We want them to be seeing that comment that's either nasty or bullying and thinking in their mind, okay, what are my options here? Like bystander, upstander, how can that be reported, what would I do in that sense. So my approach with kids is very much I know the internet's a big part of who you are, what are your behaviours, and here's some practical. So my little role playing of it's my, I always sort of joke, my unfulfilled acting, drama, career that never was, never has been.

Just as a side note, Marty wants to recruit all of us to be in a short film that he created, wrote, directed. It's sort of simmering, isn't it? Yeah, now that you say that. Just that little side project going on. I could see one day Martin McGarren, Steven Spielberg. I have premiered a movie in a cinema in Melbourne.

Correct. Most people can't attest that to their resume, can they? No, they certainly can't. No, no. And to this day, you're the only friend of mine that has asked me to be in a film. Thank you. And we all had a ball.

Yeah, we did. Yes, and it was excellent. It was super fun. I do have these sort of creative outlets. I've never let talent get in the way of holding me back. And much to my wife's often, I don't know, I think the eye roll. Yeah, chagrin's a good word, the eye roll when I'll tell her what I'm up to. And I must say, in all seriousness, I don't

have any amazing acting abilities, but what I do is just change the tone of the way I speak. And the kids, so simply in an hour and a half with grade threes, fours, fives, and sixes, sort of grade seven to 12 year olds, I'll introduce myself as Marty. We're talking about all things online and what we want to get out of this is for you at the end of it to walk out of here being smarter, more alert, more strong, more brave and kind. And we're going to meet someone else along the way. His name's Alex.

And so I literally go behind a screen and come back out. Initially when I did it a couple of years ago, I had like this full costume change. I had like a jacket with like a shirt sewn into it. And it just got too much. I was sick of it. So now it's literally a baseball cap and that's it. So when I've got a baseball cap, I'm Alex, I come out and my body language changes a bit and my voice changes slightly to represent this character. But it's amazing how at the end of it, when I get feedback from the kids and they fill out little sort of online surveys at the end to talk about what they learnt most, they talk about this Alex

as he is a person of thing. Oh, it was great when Alex did this and Alex did that. And so as much as I think, oh, yeah, I'm just changing my voice and putting a cap on, they relate to that because he's actually experiencing things online. And then I'll snap out of him and come back and go, okay, what do we think happened there? What could you do in that situation? And then we'll lead some discussion around.

So maybe he's just been watching something go on with his mates, bullying each other or bullying someone. How would they attack that? And they can very much remove, as much as it's a baseball cap and me sliding behind the screen, they can remove themselves, me from them. And I'll even get the littler ones come up at the end and ask questions about Alex. And they'll talk to me about this third person. Like he's its own little character.

So it is quite remarkable that with very minimal skill set I'm able to play two characters. Yeah, I love that. That's so awesome. Yeah. Yeah, I'm able to play two characters. Yeah, I love that. That's so awesome. Yeah. Yeah, I can see that. You've got so much, like, joy in that kind of role that you take on. Yeah. I originally wrote it thinking it could be for two people,

like it would be me, and then I never found anyone to play the second role. So in all honesty, I wrote it for two people, the script and everything. Yeah. And never found anyone to do it with me. And so I thought, oh, initially I'll just do it myself and I'll find, I've never found someone. But not that I've sort of stopped working. And Alex just came to you.

Yeah. You know, he's within you, Marty. Yes. Just, you know. Rather than, and the big approach. It's your opus. Yeah. The big, well, having been a teacher, as we've chatted about,

was the kids didn't need another adult talking at them for an hour and a half. Like that, it's not good pedagogy, it's not good. We just know it doesn't work to kids. Yet often messages are pushed on to kids through just dialogue, one-way dialogue. That probably formed why I deliver it in the way I want, because I want the kids to be part of it and they don't need another adult telling them what to do.

Yeah, completely. So I would so recommend it. I could just see this being such a perfect thing for schools and I just feel really lucky to be having this conversation with you actually already. Thank you. I enjoy it, yeah. Yeah, it's so important.

I do enjoy getting back into it after a little bit of a break through Melbourne's lockdowns tomorrow. So I'm pumped to be getting back out there, getting the baseball cap back on. Yeah, dusting it off and walking back into your classic role. Alex. Into Alex. So I want to take like a slight U-turn and I want to talk about you in your life and the way you set your life up because obviously

you work for yourself as well as working in schools and you've created this life for yourself with your partner Mel and I'm really interested in the way that works can you talk me through your relationship and the way you approach your life yeah so I guess in a nutshell my wife Mel and I've been married um 10 again I should know this it's like the uncle who doesn't know the birthday. I don't know. To be fair, I never know either. No?

Yeah. Just over 10 years, but together a long time, and we've got no kids, which often is a topic of conversation. Being together 10 years, and I'm happy to talk about this because sometimes people, couples who are together all the time, and I must say females more so and mel will share this she gets a lot more almost inappropriate comments and remarks around oh kids when are you having kids like when are you having kids um which i must say like amongst like male friends of mine and even female friends of mine it's not often discussed and it's

always been something that's been really clear to us as a couple who have been together a long time, not having kids, not at this stage intending to, that she will have a lot more people just being really forthright asking, which the irony is she works in a field in obstetrics where she sees how difficult it is to have kids, number one. So there's that whole topic of how insensitive it is to raise with a woman of any age around kids.

Oh, you have no idea about someone's story. Oh, exactly. So Mel being like a healthy, healthy person and us not having, happy to share, we haven't had any traumatic story of trying to have kids but she knows within that field just how often and how common that is that's not spoken about as as um it's starting to hopefully get shared more and talked about more about how that whole process of pregnancy is not just we've had a baby and what's gone on before it so yeah that's an interesting part of who Mel and I are is the fact that we don't have kids and how it's really never brought up with me.

Occasionally there'll be some jest about it or mates will generally just joke that I'm. That Mel cops it. Yeah, that she does, which is, yeah, which is a really interesting part of it. Yeah. What has that allowed you in your life to do? Yeah. Oh, not really.

That's a loaded question, I guess. But how do you operate in that way? I guess a big part was travel. We always said travel wants to be both in our professional spaces. Mel, in the medical world, has scoped to take her skill set around the globe. Myself in education or even being sort of up for any sort of challenge, we would very happily sort of shuffle around the globe at any stage.

Move to Hollywood. Move to Hollywood, premiere my movies, take Alex on the road. I'm picturing one of those buses, you know, like the big American bands where they've got those luxury buses. Correct. With Alex, like a room just for Alex, a room for me, even though we're the same person. Room for your Lego.

I'm sounding more and more nutty as this interview goes on. Yeah, but that's my favourite way of being in the world. Who wants to all be the same? The Lego room and the two personalities. The baseball cap that he keeps in a glass cabinet. He can only touch it. Just to play that character, Alex. Correct.

So you travel and have that flexibility. Travel's always high on our radar. And professionally, like Mel, in her, like she's moving into a really specialised field within surgery, which is a huge time commitment. And part of it was our own discussion discussion i'll be very frank with her that we felt like we wanted to do what we're doing really well she she's seen professionals really struggle doing the two and whether you you call the cop out or the like we didn't want to be doing

two things not so well um which it's not to say people don't do two things amazingly but that that was a judgment call we sort of made. Well, Mel particularly as a mum, she didn't want to be one that was working ridiculous hours and not being there as a mum. So she sort of thought if she wants to be a mum, the two in her mind weren't. And that's where it's a really personal decision

that lots of people do work crazy long hours in big professional roles and are a parent and may do it amazingly. Like, I'm not judging that, but we made the call that, no, that was her professional side of it. And personally, I looked at being, not looked at, it sounds like I investigate, like a stay at home dad, I would have happily sort of looked at that.

But we'd love to adopt maybe at some stage. We've looked at that as something we'd love to adopt maybe at some stage um we've looked at that as something we could do down the track um I like to volunteer with with young people and spend time with with kids in that space as well at the moment we we live a very not we're right now we're separate as we're recording this I'm in Melbourne and she's in Sydney and Sydney's in lockdown yeah we do live sort of independent but co-existent lives, which works really well for us. And it wouldn't work for a lot of other people who really need

to be with each other and that's their relationship. Fantastic. That's how they work. We don't, we aren't in each other's pockets in that sense, which some people are like, what? You just, like I went off to America for a couple of weeks before COVID and travelled solo. So we can do things like that, I guess.

Yeah, and the reason I ask you about this is because I think sometimes people think their lives have to go one way. Like I think they think they just have to do the things that are written down somewhere in some manuscript for adulthood. You know, like go to school, graduate, go to university, find someone to marry, get married, have a house, have kids, do that for a while, then you die. Yeah. You know, and life is just so full of possibilities.

And what you bring to the world and to a relationship and to a way of being doesn't have to always be the same as someone else's and there's just so much out there to explore. Why do you think people sometimes get stuck in that mindset? Yeah, it's a great question. I think the risk, like I'm a risk taker, I'm a gambler. I'm coming out on the broadcast to say that I am a gambler. I'm a problem gambler.

No, like I have that side to me. Yeah, you like taking things on and risk taking and doing things differently. Taking things on and having a go. And within the teaching world, I'm sure you'd attest to this, there's a lot of teachers who are safe in their world teaching. They may be amazing teachers. They may not be amazing teachers, but it's safe for them and it's a job and they're going to return.

And the thought of doing something different, even the thought of maybe leaving their school to go to another school, is just not even on their radar. Whereas my teaching, I did a few years in my first school, then we moved into state and we wanted to do something different. So I think there is that. The level of risk, like risk aversion of people, do you think? I think it's fear too.

It's fear of the unknown. And, yeah, different people like to live with a different level of risk. Some people are really happy to live up on the high wire and some people are more conservative. But I do think sometimes it's that element of fear because you do, once you step out of the trodden path, it's not as clear where your road's going to take you, which I find exciting. Yes.

You know, and amazing because you just never know what's around the corner. And I think once you get – it's a bit like a muscle. I felt like James and I are a bit like that. It's a bit like a muscle. Like the first time you do it where you step out and, I don't know, do a trip somewhere you wouldn't usually go or try and meet someone new or even just volunteer for something that you wouldn't normally have volunteered for,

it's the muscle that you realise you get so much from that experience from something new. So every time you put yourself out of your comfort zone, you're always kind of levelling up to something new. But I think it's a way of being in the world that not everyone is comfortable with or don't even realise it's a possibility for themselves until maybe something happens in their life where, I don't know, an illness or they lose someone close to them

and it makes them wake up. Sometimes you can see that in people and they go, oh, actually, I've always wanted to learn Spanish dancing or something. Why don't I just do it? I'll be dead in 50 years. May as well give it a bell. Yeah, absolutely. And so that's why I think it's so important if you have an idea

of something you want to do to just go and do it. Because I remember talking to you years ago and you had all these irons in the fire. Like you've been trying lots of different stuff, right? Yes, 100%. Oh, my God. Little projects and different ideas. Yeah, and I guess that's my mind races at overdrive.

Like I often talk to other people, mates, and some are similar, some are far from it, like you said, and they sort of can't understand that I'll have a new something that I'm buzzing about. Yeah. And, like, just recently I spoke to a colleague, co-friend of ours, Prue, about a podcast. I'm like, we should do this podcast.

I woke up one morning, we haven't done it, and I might never do it. I've got a clothing business that's never started. I know. That was the idea. I was thinking. The whole idea. And I did pitch it to you. I've pitched it to everyone.

Yeah, you totally did. So there we go. I'm in education, and as my all-too-clever wife said, you have no skills in textiles. You have no skills in importing. You've never started a business of retail. I don't know if you do graphics, Steve. I've got no graphic design.

So I actually had zero skill set in any related field. And, yeah, I was convinced. And I've got a plastic tub at home with samples and I've got rolls of Velcro. I really got there. And only, this is probably the time to reveal, I think the business is dead. I got the domain renewal because I've just been paying it year after year. It's $25, $30 a year to own that.

There's no website. There's nothing there. But I'm like, I just need to, that's my brand. Yeah. And then this year it came through – the email came through and I've let it lapse. Oh, it's the end of the dream. So if anyone out there listening wants to –

Wants a tub full of Velcro. Tub full of Velcro. And so I have my mind races in that sense, which I love, and that is so different. Again, yin-yang to mal, yin-yang to a lot of people who would never think in that space and that's their comfortable zone but my mind sort of can't stop racing. Yeah, I'm the same.

You know what I find hard about it is that I, because I really have a superpower, which I feel like you do too, of getting people on board of a thing. Yeah. Like because I'm so enthusiastic, I'm just like, we're coming. We're going for this thing. And then they'll see me the next week and they'll be like, so what's happening with the thing?

And I'll be like, oh, no. I'm not really into it anymore. Yeah, exactly. And that's what I find sometimes quite awkward. Like I'll have started, I don't know, teaching myself Italian. I'll do a joke in Italian to a friend who's Italian. And they'll, like, then the next time I see them in a couple of months, they'll come at me full Italian.

I won't even remember the thing that I was doing or the joke that I told them. Yeah. But it is just the way you are, right? Yeah. Everyone's different. Yeah. Yeah. So I wanted to learn all the digits of pi up to 100.

All right. So pi is in the mathematical term. Correct. 3.14. I got to 20. And, again, that's an idea I might go back to. Was there any reason for that? No, no, absolutely. Just for fun. I'm not painting a good picture.

Now that I'm putting this together, Lego. Memorising the digits to pi to 20. That's where I got to. Velcro badges. Velcro badges. My gosh. Amateur movies. Where did you get them? You are actually an expert in the field that we just talked about.

Occasionally, yeah, I do reflect and I put things together like this on my own, who I am, and go, what? It's like someone's just got like a random bag of things and put them in there. Because you've been into footy too, right? Yeah, I still play football. Yeah, I still play football now. A friend described me as a chameleon once because she said, like, you fit in with the footy crowd but then you'll be equally sort

of in a totally different with, like, I used to love a shop I worked at. We had all these elderly folk who came. It was a little supermarket and I used to love chatting too. And people would mock me because i don't know when you speak to older people you you sort of go into a whole another type of comment you talk about the weather a lot yeah but if you do it enthusiastically they love it so yeah you're a mixed interesting bag no but i just find that great because i think we're all unique right and we all have a way of being in the world and a story to tell and

and sometimes people get worried about what other people will think of them. Do you worry about that? Are you ever embarrassed? No. Well, I don't and this, I must say, is often a cause for Mel who, again, I've referred to her a lot because we are totally different and she often, and I don't know if it's a gender thing um if there is more in our little um sample size of male female relationship i have no concern or interest around what other

people think not in a hopefully not in a disrespectful way but like a little look from someone to me like i don't read into um things like she might she'll come home overly reflect on things but that also makes her amazing in lots of other ways because that's that sensitive side that maybe i then don't have that side being pretty blunt but things sort of just go past me i've said to people i've never been offended and can't be offended like personally yeah like anything like people say oh sorry i'm sorry i don't get offended like like i worry about big things that um are offensive in society but personally i don't get offended about things and and for a lot of people that's a real challenge and takes a lot

of their own energy so i i'm lucky i feel that none of my energy is wound up in in worrying yeah in worrying about that. Which, yeah, you probably have to find a balancing act in that, I guess. Yeah. But you're very empathetic too, though, I think. Pathetic. That's my way to end the interview. And, Marty, you are pathetic.

I've been wanting to tell you this for 20 years. And then ten people walk in the door. Marty, you are pathetic. We've got something to tell you this for 20 years. That's why I called you in there. And then 10 people walk in the door. Marty, you are pathetic. We've got something to tell you. That's why we did this podcast. It's just a ruse. It's not even a show. I just came to tell you you're pathetic.

It's a new podcast revealing mates of yours who are actually pathetic. No, no. I meant empathetic. Empathetic. Because I do think you're empathetic. Gotcha. You know, you can still put yourself in other people's shoes yeah you're not walking around being like hey jerry get out of

here you dickhead or whatever i don't know yeah you know i am i'm probably not great with my own um my own feelings or reflecting on in that sense it's probably all external um that's interesting yeah yeah um that's something i'll be quite open to say that, yeah, it's not something, yeah, it gets back to like my good mates. It might be this whole male-female thing. Well, often I'd go and hang out with two of my good mates or one of them and I'll get home and Mel will be, oh, how are they? How are they going with this?

And then I'm like, I don't know. All we talked about is we talk about superficial stuff. Okay, yeah. We're probably getting into a whole other topic now. But that whole, I probably fit the stereotypical what a guy talks about with his friends. What do you talk about? Literally nothing.

The footy? Yeah, yeah. Is that what you talk about? Like the footy? We could spend a whole afternoon talking about sport and just retelling stories of what we've done in the past. I was going to say that's all James' mates do. They just talk about the footy.

They talk maybe about, I don't know, some bit of politics. And then it's all just remember that time when we were 18 and we were in that tree and we were doing that thing? Yeah. It is. We're very much in that. And we love doing that and we've been doing that forever. But we never get under the surface in that and we love doing that and we've been doing that forever but we never get under the surface in that sense and, yeah,

Mel often say, oh, how are they going with that or even their kids and I'm like, yeah, I think they're good. We didn't quite and, like, he spent all afternoon. Yeah. Yeah, and even, like, my brother, I'd spent some, a whole afternoon he came to visit and he'd recently broken up with a long-term partner and at the end of it I was, oh, how's he going with that? And I'm like, oh, we watch the horse races all afternoon.

Do you know what I mean? Yeah, it's very – whereas that would be the complete opposite for me. Yeah, I'm tipping if you hung out with your girlfriends. And this is obviously – and I keep saying this on this show, because gender is such a spectrum and people are different and different people's relationships are different. But in my own life, I do see that there's quite a difference in my friendships versus, say, James' friendships and the way

that they operate much more on a surface level. Like we wouldn't go for a beer to talk about deep emotional stuff. Like that's the, that is the topic. And when we catch up, you know, you catch up for brunch to find out all of the emotional stuff that's going on for someone and then analyze it all and unpack it all and try and figure out what's going on for them, what's going on for their kids, what's going on for their partner. And we all kind of try and come up with solutions about that like it's very rare that I would go out to brunch with a friend and we just talk about something we're interested in which I said to James is kind of annoying sometimes yeah yeah I find that so interesting but that is yeah the absolute contrast to any relationship I have, yeah, in that sense. And what did I come across recently, which I need to go back

to listening to, Man Enough. Do you know that? I've heard of that. That means a lot. He's an American actor. He did a TED Talk called something about being man enough and he's released a book. And I was just listening to him interview Shawn Mendes

on his own podcast. But the topic was effectively around men and they're absolutely being trained into this lack of emotion mindset and how there is just no role model for it therefore it does not and I'm a perfect example like I've there's nothing around me that's ever sort of set that up to to sit and chat to friends about anything and mental health, those sort of things. That is just absolutely never. Is there stuff that you do for your mental health?

Like is there anything you do in your life that helps let off steam? I think it's always exercise. I don't strategically do it for that, but I hope that's sort of just in the balance to me that I've sort of religiously exercised for 20 years, whether it's running, football, strength work, whatever, like 24 hours without doing it, I'll start getting itchy feet, literally wanting to get out and do things. So I think scientifically it's proven how good exercise is

for mental health. So that's probably my big one. I know meditation, Carly talks a lot about how the brain science around meditation is unequivocal and how good it is for all sorts of wellbeing and I haven't got into it. Again, I'd love to. Do you do meditation in any way? I do.

I did, I should say. I'm out of the habit of it. i kind of go in through cycles with it sometimes i'll do it and it's wonderful but i think when you have really tiny kids like we do the idea of having 15 minutes to sit and meditate is sort of a dream that especially when you're running your own business at the same time i much prefer to brush my teeth and brush my hair and have a shower or put my face cream on. But I do know that when I do meditate, it is so good for me. But I actually find meditation in walking or running or exercise.

For me, there's something connecting in, which I know I'm sure purists of meditation and Kali would say, meditating while you're exercising is not the same as sitting and meditating deeply. But for me, yeah, I have to choose at the moment with my time what's more valuable because we have such little amount of our own time when you've got tiny kids. So exercise is the big one for me that I would do the same for my mental health because I need that endorphin hit and a full-on exercise like a run

or something really strenuous. None of this yoga BS for me. Even though people love yoga and swear by it, I need like really intense workout and that will kind of lift whatever's going on for me in my head much more. Is it because during that exercise you're not thinking about other things? Is it? Partly, yeah. Or your mind's still right? I reckon it clears everything. much more so is it because during that exercise you're not thinking about other things is it partly or you do still your mind still right i reckon it clears everything yeah just clear reset it feels like a reset yeah you know i did read something about how exercise is kind of helping

to regenerate your cells even at a molecular level and i feel i almost feel like that like you get out there you get your body moving and so yeah your mind's clear you're less bogged down in heavy thoughts and even anger and resentment because i think what happens in our heads is we get stuck in thought loops yeah you know of going over and often we go over the same couple of stories of things that we've done that haven't been great yeah you know and you're like i can't believe i said that and then if you can separate your mind a little bit which is what meditation does it allows you to look at yourself and go, why are you thinking about that thing you said to someone in 2002 again? You know,

like you could be thinking about anything. Why are you thinking about that exact, you know, that one embarrassing moment or that one thing you could have done better or that idea that fell flat that you wish had been better, you know? Yeah. Yeah, so I find with running or exercise that clears it. Something, speaking of forgotten to mention, something I have been doing just recently and I'm loving it is cold shower every morning. Wow. I started it.

I read some stuff, a guy called Wim Hof, who's this crazy Dutch guy who's like the extreme of cold water immersion and and breathing mindfulness he's ran marathons in the Antarctic in barefoot like stupid stuff that's not achievable but with the little bit I got out of it was how the cold water um and I've always liked getting the ocean in that in like in winter and the like but now with it and I think it's hardwired i've sort of probably had three months of it now of every single morning cold shower like the and as it's gone from sort of autumn into winter the temperature out of the tap chills more wow and speaking of

clearing your mind you cannot think of anything else while you're in there except breathing which is awesome. So you literally get up, I'll probably do some stretches or something in the morning and then jump in. It might only be in there 30 seconds before I start feeling pain. Oh, gosh. It doesn't sound great. And this just happens in winter. You get a bit of pain from the cold.

But then the moment you turn it off, your body is zinging. And that's amazing. Wow. I love it. Most people I've mentioned it to, friends or family, couldn't think of anything worse than getting in freezing cold water. But it genuinely gives me a buzz of a morning. I love it.

Wow. I wouldn't encourage anyone. All right. I'm going to try that. I recently went down the coast, and there's these people that meet at 5 p.m. every day, and they jump in the water in winter. And they were in their 60s and 70s and I just saw them like literally frolicking, I couldn't think of a better word, in the freezing water.

But it was like this thing they just said it's like this addiction but it's kind of exhilarating and you feel alive. And I just thought, yeah, so how can I do that to bring myself when I was living in suburbia? Cold shower in the morning. All right. I said recently to Mel that I'd just started in the cold shower thing and I was getting out and feeling a buzz.

And I think I said something like, if everyone in the world had cold showers, wouldn't it be a better place? And I think I said some extreme thing that there wouldn't be. That is such a mighty thing to say. Why doesn't everyone in the world have a cold shower? I'm enjoying this thing. Let's take it global.

But I think her, I think I said something about mental health. Wouldn't everyone sort of be of a better mindset if they start every day? But as Mel correctly put, people aren't in the mindset to get into the shower. Do you know what I mean? Yes, yeah. You have to get there. To be able to make that conscious decision. And it's not for everyone, obviously.

But, yeah, that's been amazing for me, to be honest. I've loved it. There you go. Exercise and cold showers. And cold showers. All right. The secrets to. The secrets to a happy long life.

The end. The end. You're pathetic. End scene. Thank you so much for coming on the show, Marty. This has been so informative and so much fun. I'll have to have you on again. Anytime.

Because I really wanted to ask you more about boys' education particularly and that kind of realm of your approach with that so we'll have to come on again and um have chat love to interview your sister too yes absolutely she'll have a very different take um on that online space and something we've seen growing around yeah just those influences some of the topics i've chatted about yeah i think it'd be awesome insights from an actual genuine parent and not me trying to talk about parenting. Yeah, absolutely.

And where can we find you? What's the best way to find you? In Melbourne, Australia, Inform and Empower is me. So look me up, Inform and Empower. Love working with primary schools. So if anyone out there is interested in that digital space, working with both students, teachers and parents, we'd love to hear from you.

Excellent. And you're on Twitter too, aren't you? Yeah. Yeah,. We'd love to hear from you. Excellent. And you're on Twitter too, aren't you? Yeah. Yeah, great. So we can find you over there too. All right. Thank you so much. Thanks, Marty.

Bye. Okay. That's our episode for this week. You've been listening to Tons Podcast with me, Claire Tonti, and this week with the wonderful Martin McGowan. You can find more from Marty at his website, informandempower.com.au. And I highly recommend going over there for more information and resources if you are a parent or a teacher and you think your community could do with some more educating around this. And I think we all could really. You can also book an appointment for

Marty to come and talk to your school, which I totally recommend if you're in Australia. And he also does digital presentations too for this new online world we are living in. If you wouldn't mind, I'd love you to check us out over on iTunes. You can do it straight in app, just like Joey No Thumbs has, learning so much without being preached to. Just honest life experience backed by facts.

Funny, classy, and my new favorite listen. Thanks so much, Joey. And I'll read your review out if you check this one just over there. And if you think this episode would be useful to someone in your life, please share it with them. That's how we get discovered. That's how I keep making these episodes. And I also think there's some really great information in this one. It's just one of those topics, isn't it, that I think we could all do with some more tools and strategies and just a little bit of feeling like we're not alone in stressing about this kind of stuff too. So yeah, that would just mean the world to me.

And if you want more from me, I'm over at Claire20 on Instagram and you can also check out my website claire20.com for more of my podcasts. I do Subgestible with my husband man, James Clement, that comes out every Thursday where we give you cheeky recommendations for what to watch on Netflix. Sometimes it's recipes, sometimes it's podcasts, sometimes it's books and it comes out every Thursday. You can also subscribe to my newsletter in the link below. And as always, thank you so much to Roar Collings

for editing this episode. All right. Till next week. Stay safe, guys. Bye.