TONTS. - The Mess and the Magic of Motherhood with Joanna Bennett

Episode Date: March 20, 2022

Joanna Bennett wears her insides on her outsides. She is also known as the poet Tatterhood and is the author of 3 books Swimming Underwater, Tiny Lungs and These Are My Delicious Sandwiches. Her poetry speaks to the heart of things. Little things that really are big things. What it feels like to watch someone you birthed into the world sleep beside you. The stretchy long days of parenting through isolation during a pandemic. The low hum of irritation at the socks on the floor or the blinding sentimentality of your box of Christmas decorations stored somewhere in the back of the cupboard to be rifled through when the time is right. Jo writes in a way that makes sense to a sleep deprived addled sometimes hormonal brain. Her poetry gifts us fragments of womanhood and motherhood and aching love and the daily grind of parenting tiny humans. I first heard her poetry spoken about by Pandora Sykes on the High Low podcast and very quickly ordered her 2020 book of poems called Tiny Lungs. Illustrated by her son each group of words for me was a window into the heady mix that is parenthood the fear, the exhaustion and the love. For me poetry helps especially when I’m bone achingly tired and overwhelmed or hormonal or just plain over everything. There’s no pressure to finish a whole chapter let alone a whole book - poems can put your restless mind in touch with something bigger and brighter and deeper and wider than the dishes you’re meant to be stacking in the dishwasher or the never-ending pile of clean washing filling up baskets all over the house. Whether it’s her words about the light on a sequin or the heart breaking simplicity of her poem Bones about grief and miscarriage and friendship Joanna Bennett helped me through some of the isolation this pandemic and Covid 19 brought over these last few years. We had second babies, daughters who want to eat wires and scale precipitous heights (from her poem wires about parenting a her daughter) about the same time in 2020 and while Jo lives in Bristol and I in Melbourne her third book These are my delicious sandwiches speaks into so much of what I felt being pregnant when the world was beginning to lockdown and what that would mean for me but also for my baby and our little family unit. Jo is exactly as warm and funny and honest as I hoped she’d be and her voice leapt out at me across the internet air waves late at night in our backyard studio. I read somewhere once that sometimes putting art into the world is like sending out a beacon to your people to say hello here I am is anyone else out there feeling the same as me? And that’s how I reckon it is with Jo. I hope you fall as much in love with her as I did during this conversation. A little more about Joanna in 2017 she was longlisted for the Out-Spoken Prize For Poetry and in the December was commissioned by GOSH Arts to write a book for Great Ormond Street Hospital which was subsequently turned into a film read by Rupert Everett. Follow Joanna Bennett on instagram @tatterhood_ Subscribe here for – tontsnewsletterYou can find me on instagram @clairetonti or at www.clairetonti.comYou can email me with suggestions for episode topics and guests to [e-mail] credits:Editing - RAW Collings and Claire TontiTheme music - Avocado Junkie Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, this is Tons, a podcast of in-depth interviews about emotions and the way they shape our lives. I'm your host, Claire Tonti, and I'm so glad you're here for season two. Each week, I speak to writers, activists, experts, thinkers, and deeply feeling humans about their stories. My guest today, Joanna Bennett, wears her insides on her outsides. Her poetry speaks to the heart of things, little things that are really big things. What it feels like to watch someone you birthed into the world sleep beside you. The stretchy

long days of parenting through isolation during a pandemic. The low hum of irritation at the socks on the floor or the blinding sentimentality of your box of Christmas decorations stored somewhere in the back of the cupboard to be rifled through when the time is right. Jo writes in a way that makes sense to a sleep-deprived, adult, sometimes hormonal brain. That's me. You hadn't guessed. Her poetry gifts us fragments of womanhood and motherhood and aching love and the daily grind of parenting tiny humans. I first heard her poetry spoken about by Pandora Sykes on the Hilo podcast and very quickly ordered her 2020 book of poems called Tiny Lungs. Illustrated by her son, each group of words for me was a window into the heady mix that is

parenthood, the fear, the exhaustion and the love. For me, poetry helps, especially when I'm bone achingly tired and overwhelmed or hormonal or just plain over everything. There's no pressure to finish a whole chapter, let alone a whole book. Poems can put your restless mind in touch with something bigger and brighter and deeper and wider than the dishes you're meant to be stacking in the dishwasher or the never ending pile of clean washing washing filling up baskets all over the house. Whether it's her words about the light on a sequin or the heartbreaking simplicity of her poem Bones about grief and miscarriage and friendship, Joanna Bennett or the poet Tatterhood as she writes under helped me through some of the isolation this pandemic and COVID-19 has brought over the last

few years. We had second babies, daughters who want to eat wise and scale precipitous heights. It's from her poem, Wires, about parenting her daughter. And we had them about the same time in 2020. And while Jo lives in Bristol and I in Melbourne, her third book, These Are My Delicious Sandwiches, speaks into so much of what I felt being pregnant when the world was beginning to lock down and what that would mean for me, but also for my baby and our little family unit. Jo is exactly as warm and funny and honest as I hoped she'd be. And her voice leapt out at me across the internet airwaves late at night in our backyard studio. I read somewhere once that sometimes putting art into the world

is like sending out a beacon to your people to say, hello, here I am, is anyone else out there feeling the same as me? And that's how I reckon it is with Jo. I hope you fall as much in love with her as I did during this conversation. A little more about Jo. In 2017, she was long listed for the Outspoken Prize for Poetry and in the December was commissioned by Gosch Arts to write a book for Great Ormond Street Hospital, which was subsequently turned into a film read by Rupert Everett. She is now the author of three books, Swimming Underwater, Tiny Lungs, and These Are My Delicious Sandwiches. Before we start, I wanted to give you a heads up that this conversation does include discussions of miscarriage, pregnancy loss, and infertility.

So if you find these topics difficult, this one may not be for you, though in a big way, I found Jo's openness really healing and comforting. Here we are back again for Taunt Season 2. Let's kick it all off with all the feelings, and there are a lot in this one, with the delight of a human that is Joanna Bennett Tatterhood. Hello, Jo. How are you? I am so well. I'm so excited to be chatting with you, honestly. I can't tell you. It's a real, real pleasure for me. Oh, thank you. Me too. I've been such a big fan of your work thank you so much oh my goodness so we've actually never met have we we've just kind of spoken over Instagram yeah just here and there so I wanted to ask you how you got into writing poetry because

I actually don't really know much about you other than what I've gleaned from reading your poems well I think that I've always loved writing since being a very little girl I it's something that I just it's my thing I don't know if you have to have a thing but I really love that as a creative outlet and then the sort of Tatterhood writing came about when we had our first child Arthur and um I was really struggling at really similar age to our daughter now, around about 18 months. We went on a trip to Los Angeles. And when we came back, the jet lag and the teeth and everything just kind of meant that sleep was very hard to get.

So in those times where you're just lying there for ages in the dark, I was just trying to occupy my mind in a kind of pleasant way, trying to own the time rather than feeling frustrated at sort of this time spent where things weren't quite working and I just was starting to write in my mind going through the experiences in my mind and then I would just jot them down onto paper when I got out of the darkened room and I found it really really really beneficial at that time to just work through those feelings, because with the first child, all these things were so different. It's a difficult it's so I find extremely hard to vocalize that feeling of the challenge. I was talking to someone about it yesterday because you don't at all want to be ungrateful.

You're you're loving the experience and you're delighted to have these wonderful children. But there's just that feeling when things are just like it's just really difficult and it's so hard to describe so I was just trying to work through those feelings and put them down onto paper that's where that all started really and then I just started sharing them through Instagram I really came to Instagram properly when I suppose a couple of years before Arthur, but it was a real game changer in terms of making connections with other parents really and sharing those experiences.

Yeah, because that's what comes so strongly through. Every poem I read, I found you through the high-low and I ordered Tiny Lungs and it kind of winged its way over from the UK to here and that's what struck me so strongly. I have two little kids and there's just so many poems that I've read and particularly when we're going through this pandemic as well that just hit me so hard in my heart. One in particular I really loved, the first one, Bones. Oh, yeah. Before we get on to your current book that I also loved and I got a copy sent through the email,

could you tell me about Bones and why you wrote that poem? Yeah, Bones is such a like, I think I said to you before we came onto this, there's such a chance that my emotions are going to be so high and low, but I think that's a good thing. So with Bones. It is, it is. Yeah, with Bones, without really realizing it when we were trying to have our first child so it's Arthur and Mabel and Arthur was our third pregnancy and then yeah it was a bit difficult but we didn't really think about it too

much it was a surprise when he um when we were expecting him because it was after quite a lot of Christmas drinks so because I thought we weren't expecting him. But that was all worked out well. But when we wanted to come about and think about having another child a few years later, things just didn't quite work out how I thought they would, or how either of us thought they would. So Mabel is our 10th pregnancy. So we had a lot of miscarriages along the way so bones was really a way of trying to work out and process the thoughts of that pathway and the miscarriages and the things that were kind of going awry at that time because it's a very isolating experience to go through where I definitely a glass half full person so I found myself when I was going through that you're kind of like everything's great

everything's fine I'm doing that very English way of like I am great um you know when you're absolutely slowly falling apart and you know carrying on working when all these things are happening but I think I found it so beneficial when people, well, just them being there, actually. Just people being there, knowing that something wasn't quite right. And just being there. I was just really thankful for people. And that was really just my way of expressing that. And thinking of other people I knew that were going through things at the same time that were similar.

And just that, like, this is really difficult. I know this is difficult I may not know quite what to say to you but I'm totally here and I'm gonna try and carry some of this for you and we'll get through it we don't quite know what that end pathway is going to be but whatever that is we'll we'll make it okay so that is that's what came out of that one I remember I wrote it in this room actually it was a really really difficult time of like very confused time just not quite knowing when the narrative I remember just thinking like this isn't this isn't how I thought this part of the story was going to be and just trying to work with that and being like okay the hope the excitement thinking things are going to happen in a certain way, but then getting quite far along thinking, okay,

it probably isn't going to work out like that. And that's why, again, I'm just working through all of that. And I'm so thankful to have that poem because with all of them, they just completely come out and there's probably not a huge amount of, I think about them for a really long time. And then when they actually write them, it's quite a quick quick process and I put them down and then I'm like a huge relief and huge release to have done it but I'm so pleased to have done that one because it's been a huge and profoundly moving experience for me that other people have found some comfort from that or shared it

relating to that experience of them their own or a different experience that they're finding challenging. Yeah, because I've only had, well, not only, but I had one miscarriage that shocked me in its intensity that it happened to me. It was with our second pregnancy and I was sort of floored and ended up on the floor in an ambulance at like 3 o'clock in the morning and I just had never been prepared, I felt, for an experience like that, even though I kind of heard

the term miscarriage or you kind of hear it bandied about like, oh, that could happen to you, but I hadn't really thought about it being such a visceral experience what was that like because 10 miscarriages I'm so sorry that's so hard well it's interesting that you said the phrasing there where you said oh I've only had one but one is hard one is enough one is the one I think once you've had that one and you're a different person I don't you know I'm a huge supporter about talking about this and I don't mean that to be like terrifying or worrying to say like you know it's it but the gravity around it should be honoured and whoever's gone through

it should be like that was really hard um I probably will swear but yeah um and that we need to honour that be like you did such a great you know you have done so well to go through that and to to just say yeah like to give yourself the praise for that really and with 10 honestly when it got to about six we're like okay we know what to do so um I don't know genuinely just had to like kind of keep some humor around it actually and I honestly the one the nine I mean it just sounds ridiculous talking about it really but I just remember taking Arthur we went to a festival and I was just like I just knew it was happening but we were working and doing some stuff about

festival and he's just like okay that's what happens and then we just get on with it but I also remember like thinking the first time it's like it's so painful like it hurts so much and it's just like no one really mentions that like it's gonna really hurt like maybe just like here's some information this would be really helpful take these tablets maybe sit down and do some of this I don't know I just think sharing those experiences without fear um and just saying you can you'll be fine it's gonna be okay but this is what you going to have to go through but again it's I really took on the experience of trying to have another one I think and I found that for me really helpful and that I read reams and reams of information about what might help and you know some of it's just insane like kind of like I don't know put your foot in a bucket at midnight and

you know just trying to pick out the things which are going to be helpful and going to be useful and I was like okay we'll probably take on board some of that stuff I mean we went to see we went to um I have no qualms about being really honest about this because I hope that it will be helpful to people but we went to see um we went privately to see like if IVF might help us and I remember the chap was so match of fact. And again, I passed this information on to the people that may see him. And he was just like, nope, that's not going to happen. We will not even do IVF for you because you're not going to get pregnant.

I remember having that meeting going like, OK. And in my head, I was like, I don't think you can tell me what to do. So I remember just coming away going, no, I'm going to read about that bucket. I'm going to put both feet in that bucket. and I think I really threw myself into the challenge um but that's not to discredit the fact that for huge amounts of people it's not about how much work you put in at all but for me I found it beneficial and helpful to think about the things I could just try and do and someone advised me they said try everything you can and then when it comes to time that you think you probably stop trying then you've done

everything and you'll be at peace with that and we really genuinely did get to a place I think where I was like yeah I was within the recurrent miscarriage clinic here at our local hospital who are amazing I was on a trial program with like taking progesterone which I think was what led us to have a successful second pregnancy again I'm not sure about that but yeah I do think whether it's one or ten yeah I read on a form someone had had like 26 you just think one or 26 it's just like geez it reinforces to me how incredible I believe women to be how they can endure and share and support and that's with Bones. This is all, that is like, that is a poem of support and just saying like, it's a shit

club, but it's a really supportive one. So just, I suppose it's just my way of trying to take something positive out of that painful journey. I guess because that poem Bones, I felt that when I read it and you talked then just about womanhood in general I found the journey of womanhood into motherhood there are a lot of things that shocked me that I sort of hadn't realized that women had to take on what do you think about that oh well it's quite a long chat I could have that um that's what we're here for that's what we're here for Jo do share yeah I think so the journey's oh I think as well the thing which I didn't

realize was how important having a sense of humor would be and how it's just like I mean Mabel has I wanted to ask you how old is your youngest now? She's 18 months. Amazing. So Mabel is 19 months. So she literally probably in the last four days has really switched on and like properly smash up everything. So Christmas tree, why are we putting those up? Because it's literally like, oh, do it. And my son is just like, you can hear him just like, Mabel, please don't.

He's just like trying to quietly do his stuff. So I think that thing about motherhood and womanhood that I didn't really realize was this kind of like need to learn some techniques to just calm down when this is like so intense. And it's like everyone's just being themselves. So no one's trying to be, you know, like a dickhead or anything. Everyone is literally living their life. And there's quite a lot of noise and there's a lot more noise than I expected um but also embracing that and just trying to work some techniques to myself rather than just like I tend to let things build up build up build up and thinking like you're sick surely you can see that I'm struggling with this and it's like of course he can't because he's wonderful and he's being sick and I let things build up build up build up and thinking like you're sick surely you can see that I'm struggling with this and it's like of course he can't because he's wonderful and he's being sick

and I let things build up and build up and I'm like and I think I just need to try and like kind of like chill the things out of it and just be like have another ultimate thing I think I learned with the motherhood thing it's like have some expectations and throw them out the window as far as you can. Don't expect anything you think to happen to happen. So if you have any plans, put them in the bin. If you want to go somewhere, you'll be late. I don't know, just like it's just literally nothing is going to end up as you expected and that's going to be okay. You know, that whole like it's fine, it's fine.

Everything's okay. It's so interesting because we have kids pretty much the exact same age. I have a son who's six and a daughter who's 18 months. Perfect. And we sort of were going to have kids a bit closer together and then I had that miscarriage and it took me a long time to build up to actually trying again because it was such a traumatic experience for me. But then I've ended up with this daughter who I would not change with the world, but

she is just a roller coaster of a human, just like just sort of tumbling through our lives. And I read that poem from your beautiful new book, These Are My Delicious Sandwiches, called Glass Ceilings. And I just, it just encapsulated my daughter to an absolute tea. Do you mind if I read it? Could I read it? Oh, please do. That would be amazing. Thank you. I'd love to read it for the listeners who might not have seen it on my Instagram, and then we'll talk about it a bit more. So glass ceilings. My daughter wants to eat wires and scale the chairs to precipitous heights. My daughter likes to chew the spikes of wood on

the table edge and reach for the fence with the sharpest point. She wants to traverse the lands that shout, not now, not yet, and pays no heed to, you shall not pass. there is no time for restricted areas for stop halt for who goes there my daughter wants to eat wires and frankly who am I to say no why did you write that where did that come from I think I know it's so lovely hearing you read that thank you um just just before I say about it I wanted to say I'm really sorry that you had that experience as well I know it's really difficult so that glass ceilings because Mabel is miracle Mabel she's like we didn't know we were going to have her and she is so wild it's amazing it sounds like yours is too because it's just and maybe it's because you have this gap that you forget and it's kind of a gift again because I'm like oh all right oh oh you're not there okay everything is like oh I mean because we thought Arthur was wild but she is like

honestly like chewing it's like oh splinters in your mouth like now with the baubles it's like are they glass because she will chew them it's everything is so extreme and it's like pulling out the plug plug plug in plug out on off on off and just like it's so extreme that you can't I don't know if you're just busy at the second time so you're like trying to cook oh no don't do that and it's just like it it's every day and I just again trying to be like okay okay who's having takeaway again us because it's just like we can't cook because you're eating everything that's like gonna kill you so um yeah I think that was it but absolutely again in this room we have quite a small house hence why most things are written in this room um but yeah I remember just looking at

her and it was just like you're just chewing that it's like so sharp and I think I just gave in a bit and I was like well a you're, you're going to keep doing it. And like, look at you. And she was then, that's when she climbed a chair because she was trying to get to the door handle to get outside. And it's like, you go for it. You go within reason. You go for it. You go for it within some safety bound, you know, with some health and safety applied.

But just like, yeah, we are told again, going on to the womanhood, I have to be like, I've got a lot of anger about the um being held back a lot and about a certain type of white man um so I have to be really careful that some of that doesn't come out too awfully but I just think yeah we know we're told so often what we can do what we can't do and it's just like yeah go on you go I'm here to support you the whole way Mabel you can do anything my parentsabel. You can do anything. My parents told me, you can do anything. We're here for you and we'll support you with anything. And it's given me so much, not necessarily confidence,

but it's given me so much power behind my feet to fly. And I just want to empower both the children. Well, in fact, both of them absolutely equally to just get out there and do it. And I just think, yeah, go on, Mabes. We're not going to stop you unless it's really dangerous um then we will then we will stop you a bit but she is and I love it even my husband who's like you know he's a skateboarder Arthur goes skateboarding they do pretty extreme stuff together and even he is like we thought she was going to be the quiet one and she is wild you know he finds a scooter she's off it's like you're three months what are you doing um yes but yeah I love that poem for that reason to just be like yeah

just keep doing it keep climbing keep doing stuff yeah my daughter bites through whole lemons like through the rind to the juice and sucks the juice out she will eat anything she's like me she loves food is like voracious with her appetite for everything. And I want that for her too. I don't want her to be, because I grew up with a wonderfully supportive family, but I absorbed a lot of external stuff about not wanting things too much, don't eat too much, don't desire things too much, limit yourself, be quieter.

Maybe it was school. I don't know. What was your experience of that? yeah it's interesting I was reading so just this morning about schooling and how this um you know the carpet idea where you sit on a carpet at the end of the day because they need to the children to be quiet for the story and some I was just reading this article this morning it's about home education and they were saying how to enable that to happen the teacher might say to the child throw your voice out the window to enable this quiet thing to happen and obviously it's a means to an end but that's kind of sad because our voices are very important and it's that balancing act and going back to your question

I went to I went to an all-girls school but it was a it was like it wasn't if you didn't pay to go there it was a grammar school so you had to pass an exam so I suppose it was a it was like it wasn't if you didn't pay to go there, it was a grammar school. So you had to pass an exam. So I suppose it was very achievement based. I hesitate because my experience of it is so different to my sister's experience of it. I won't speak about her experience directly because I haven't spoken to her to say I would. But of other people I know that went there, it was very led by your achievements, what grade you were going to get. It was all about getting A stars, getting best the best the best but my experience of it I obviously I don't wish to sell myself down because I came out of it with some I'm very proud of my results but I had a very laid-back approach to it I think and some of the kind of like must achieve must achieve which

a lot of the students they found a bit stressful I think I was I had a kind of like I'm okay with what I've done that approach I really loved English and I was happy with what I was doing. So I could have definitely worked harder, could have achieved more. But I think I would thank my parents again for being like, we're proud of you, whatever you do. And maybe they would see that as backfiring on them slightly because I could have got better grades. But I had a really enjoyable experience. But I could really see that there were other people struggling in terms of the results. But hugely as well, I'm looking back with rose tinted glasses because in terms of like there was some extremely disordered eating going on or that kind of thing. And that's so important to me to try and foster like a healthy approach to all of that with the children

both of them in the way that we talk about bodies and food and things like that and then so what you said is kind of like I think maybe 30 years ago whatever it was like don't take up too much space and be quite quiet I'm hopeful that now we can be like take up this space but in a really respectful way and like be really noisy but sometimes you need to be a bit quiet, you know. Yeah, exactly. It's going to be really confusing to them because when I hear it back, it's like, what? But that's why I'm so hopeful that we can try and foster in them. Because I know exactly what you mean that like the narrative maybe when we were younger leads to some confusion for us I think

because I'm just so keen to do the right thing to not get things wrong to like you know we must do the right thing and and I think that's important because I don't want to be a dick and I want to do the right thing but it can stop you from doing things I had the first experience the other day where someone asked me to enter for a poetry this um like a performance and I considered it extremely appreciative of being asked and being thought of and I was like I can't do that I I don't think I I don't think that's for me I don't think I can do that and I just thought wow wow I'm I was really surprised at myself thinking I didn't want to do it and I was scared it wasn't for me and I was like why is that then and I think it was attached to age and things like that and I thought that's real shame that I'm

thinking that and I don't really want to hear myself thinking that oh young people wouldn't want to hear me saying stuff or I was quite confused by it Claire I was just like this is a real new thing I spoke to my husband about it and I spoke to someone else they were just like well you just go for it it's fine and then if you decide you don't want to do it then you don't but don't prevent yourself from applying or putting yourself forward because of those kind of lacks of confidence or doubts in yourself but I thought wow that's um that's interesting and I wonder I'm really interested in the conversations about perimenopause and menopause and all of this kind of stuff and interested to take the

conversations on to listen to them but it really scares me I think the way that the conversations are going I'm like okay I speak to the management because I did not sign up for that um so when I had this kind of like doubt I was thinking oh god what is this is this this thing that's coming am I oh god so I'm really keen to seek out and I'm just trying to seek out now like experiences that people have had of the menopause or the premenopause where they're being really open and honest about it but there's a good ending because a lot of things I've read recently it's like quite quite the journey and I'm fine we're going to strap in and like face it and do it together with everybody um but yeah

yeah it seems like a lot doesn't it yeah and so because how old are you if you don't mind I'm 44 so I'm yeah look 44 oh thank you so much but much. But I think that's part of the reason why I think that when we struggled to have our second child, I think that was all sort of age related. Hence why I'm thinking, oh, are those doors going to be opening sooner than I possibly expected? But that's fine. I just want to be educated around it and then see what's going to happen. But in terms of like, I don't want it to cloud my judgment on taking things on but again I think this whole pandemic has had such an effect on my confidence and anxiety levels like there's a constant I've got constant low level buzz of like anxiety and worry

and I think that's a shame if that stops us doing things and And I thought, yeah, I am scared of this opportunity and I'm still going to try and see what happens because it's a good example for the children as well. It totally is because I agree. I'm 36, but I did feel for some reason this kind of pull to be less because I'm older, but not just because I'm older, but because I'm a mother. Yes. I'm pulled to not be as vocal and not want things for yourself that you should only want things for your kids. And that it's selfish to sit in that and do new things and try new things

because mothers should be selfless hugely yeah I hugely agree with that and it's kind of like we do ourselves a disservice and by saying we do ourselves a disservice I'm again putting the onus on us for doing something wrong but we do feel like we shouldn't do things or that it's somehow taking time away from us looking after our children. I think the fact that we worry so much about it means that we're great mums because if we weren't worrying about it, then we wouldn't be doing the job that we hope that we're doing, I suppose. But we're doing a book launch, which I'm so excited about doing.

But it's all around, like, because I'm still breastfeeding, Mabel's up a lot. If she wakes up, she probably at the moment won't be able to go back to sleep unless I'm around which is fine because they get up and they watch something calm on television and they have a cuddle which is fine but I'm trying to plan this launch and it's like um it's just a couple of hours out but even then I know it'll be like oh I hope everything of course it's just natural to worry but you you have to still do the things um and maybe they take a slightly different shape and that's fine because it means that you're all getting to do something

and the children are okay as well so I went out for my first night out about three or four weeks ago like I stayed up too long and I drank the wrong drinks and um I felt so sad because Wes was like really late on going I'm really sorry but she's definitely not asleep still um probably need to come back now and he'd been so nice I thought oh bless you you have let me stay out so long and she's been up for so long and I just thought oh I just felt so it's like oh my goodness yes I'm come back now and then um the next day I was sick all day because I drank too much and I just felt so it's like oh my goodness yes I'm come back now and then um the next day I was sick all day because I drank too much and I just thought this is rubbish I need to get like the balance here because I've had a great time but then like my thought yeah this is not quite worked

so from now on I'm trying to do a little bit more of a like okay two hours that's that's great let's do some of that and um and enjoy it and and and not feel guilty and you know make they're all safe and looked after so yeah it is hard though isn't it when you realize that in order for the wheels not to fall off everything you need to be in bed by 9 30 9 o'clock you know because everyone will be up overnight and it becomes just a whole massive mess if you don't. And then the weighing up of also wanting to be a person who's autonomous and has a life away from your kids too, which I think is important so that you feel refreshed

and revitalised and they see you having a life outside the kids as well. I don't know, but then when I'm there as soon as I leave I ring James and I'm like is everything all right he's like you've been gone for 10 minutes everything is completely fine I know I have to like as I'm going out the door I'm showing stuff like don't let them climb in the oven and it's like yes yeah exactly I'm bringing James being like so I just remembered that maybe I left some of that jewelry and she could swallow that. And it's just on the bench because I was rushing out the door

and he's like, she's nowhere near the bedroom. And I'm an adult human being. I know what she's like. She'd eat them. I've like closed the bedroom door. It's fine. Everything is good. Yeah, exactly. It's a really kind of hard tug and pull isn't it I know Elizabeth Gilberts writes about this as well being a creative person and someone who has that kind of creative force when you become a mother how you still maintain that side of yourself how have you is that is your poetry an expression of that of you being able to hold on to your creative self massively like I just really need it I really need to be able to write and it's just my way of it's absolutely my coping mechanism and the coping mechanism but also that outlet for creativity

because otherwise yeah I think I would feel that you're just literally like a vessel for enabling other things to happen all the time um so yeah and I cherish it I cherish that time and maybe that's why I'm looking forward to a period of time where I will have much more time to put into it so everything at the moment I can see I love the journey of the books I can really see the development that's happening in them. And they're very, by their very nature, they're something I think about, I think about, I think about. And they get onto the page very quickly, as I said earlier. So they're quite succinct, quite pithy.

And I'm looking forward to exploring at a later date some longer form writing. But at the moment, this really works for me. And it's like a need when they're in there. And it's like something I've really got to process I marinate on it marinate on it and it develops it develops it develops and then when the time is right I just be like right I can sit down and and get this all onto the page and I just feel a whole lot better like I've started to process that I mean gosh the last two years has just been just overwhelming as, you know, you're going through

the same thing. Yeah. What was it like for you to give birth during the pandemic? I know that you wrote that beautiful poem, Birth Plan. And I mean, we both did the same thing, right? I gave birth in May and you gave birth maybe, was it the month before in April? Yeah. What was it like then in the UK? I mean, we're in Australia, so we had a different experience here. I think for me it was because we'd gone through this pathway to get Mabel, the whole of the pregnancy was just like, let's just hope this works, sort of that low-level anxiety again throughout the whole pregnancy and just like wanting to get there,

wanting to get to the end line. It was just like everything that came along was like uh-huh right and you could feel still you know this knot in my stomach that still I mean I don't even know when it's all coming out maybe next year but just this like knot of like feelings and just like that right okay who's gonna absorb that because it was just like here's another thing here's another thing here's another nothing your children gonna be at home oh no one can be there you're gonna have to give birth to your own child by yourself down the end of the garden in a shed or something I don't know it's just a constant like your because first of all then it was like oh my parents you know the plot of goodness I'm sure it's the same for you it's like my mom and dad oh we'll come for two

weeks we'll come we can take Arthur out be great know, you can relax and look after the new baby. Then it's like, oh, we probably can't come. We definitely can't come. Oh, we won't see you for a year. It's, you know, all these things. So, like, giving birth in the hospital again was like, Wes can't be there. You can, and it literally was that.

I had an induction. So for the induction process, he wasn't allowed to be there. And you had to be like, give him a ring. now go now's the time um and it's you know with an induction process or with the second it's quite quick so I was just like oh man like I hope we can get him there but saying that they were I mean the NHS was incredible we were so well looked after but it's quite a lot isn't it giving birth I'm just thinking back to it now oh my gosh quite a day yeah but it was all it all came about and she came and it was just like you know it was just a oh the child is here and just then everything you just forget it all don't you and we were like oh she's really pretty like where

did she come from and so that was really nice but then of course because of how things go Wes then had to leave and he got some horrendous like norovirus from the hospital poor man and so then he whilst I was in hospital he was in hospital because of that it was just like man oh man oh that has been just I think that's just been there yeah this is the icing on the cake yeah and but then in the next six to twelve months we're constantly getting given these things throwing these catch hold it another one okay um and I think with the writing his outlet is skating he goes out and does that with the writing that's mine and it's great because it's something I can do when I even though I may be in the house I'm I'm in my own world and it's wonderful and I love it dearly I just love it so

much it's like it it's just reminds me of being young as well and I remember writing as a as a young girl and how freeing that is to be able to work through the incredibly challenging things that all of us have to go through and that's you know I paint a picture of everything's been like ah but it's also been ah at the same time you know it's been a difficult it's been a challenging two years but it's been a wonderful two years and I've enjoyed being able to write about those things and I want to remember them because time's flying by and it's nice to be able to to remember all of these things and I'll be able to write a poem again soon about that time I tried to do a podcast and then my dad like constantly texts me and I didn't know how to turn it off so that's the next one

I can't wait till afterwards but I won't be able to like tell them because well hopefully mum will listen to this but she I can't be like oh well you know that podcast uh got quite a lot of texts and they'll be like oh no I'm so sorry oh they sound like so supportive and beautiful and on that actually I wanted to ask you about the Palm Dishes because it strikes me that you have a wonderful partner, I'm just imagining from the sounds of it, a wonderful skater partner. Could you tell us about the Palm Dishes and what it means? Yeah, because we were having a chat about I'm trying to think about

how I can phrase this so well and delicately um in advance so we were having a discussion about how some people within relationships might become frustrated if there's a lack of intimacy and I was just saying well I think that I think we were we must have been watching something or something was sparked off from something we were discussing and it was just like the woman wasn't necessarily particularly enthusiastic and I was like well she's probably got quite a lot to do hasn't she so she probably uh got quite a lot washing up to do and whatever it is I don't know that's going on like all the stuff she's got to do so maybe you know she's a bit tired um and that's not the

fault of her mind in the tiredness when you know a child's eating a table you know something yeah exactly it's not very sexy when you're looking around there's like half folded washing and something in the dryer that you've left there and there's all the dishes in the sink and then like someone's like thrown up on the couch it's not like overly you know there's bills sort of sitting around everywhere yeah and I was just saying to him that like it's all about how you phrase it I was thinking you know if you were to say oh you know we haven't done it in a while shall we you know that's probably not the most romantic delivery. Whereas if you were to be like, you know what? I've done the washing up.

You ever sit down? You might be like, oh, that's very attractive. That is a really attractive thing. And you're like, oh. But it's just, yeah. So that's where that comes from. Where it's just literally, again, about communication and how you can help that, how you can use communication

to just help your relationship work in a nice way and like I think also things aren't transactional I just think all these things along the way help each other to just try and have a slightly easier path someone making you a cup of tea you know or just being like how's your day you must be tired yeah just wash just a bit of washing up might you know might help things along yeah just and do something for each other totally I once got given some beautiful advice actually it might have been the comedian Patton Oswalt so not directly to me you know in a comedy special but still he was talking to lots of people and it was just about it's chaos be kind and I often

think about that in terms of relationships I think when I was younger I thought it was all about who they were for me and what I could imagine him doing for me and I and my dad actually said this to me that really when you think about it and if you're both thinking about your relationship being for the other person, when it's truly equal like that, it means that you cut each other some slack, you know, and you realize life is bloody hard. And we're not perfect. We can't expect the other person to be perfect. But those tiny little things, the doing of the dishes, make life just that much easier and make your relationship work. I know Esther Perel talks about this too, that sort of desire for women or for me anyway, and I know for a lot of women

is built in those small moments. Like it might start in the morning when someone makes you a coffee and says, you want to lie in and I'll get the kids breakfast or something. And it starts with a hand on the small of your back while you're doing the dishes in the kitchen you know and then it builds over the day and I've actually tried to talk to my partner about this because I don't know if men and this is such a spectrum because human beings are all different but for my man anyway and I sneakily suspect he's similar to some others as well, it doesn't have to be a story for him. He's just like, oh, I feel like it. She looks good.

You want to, you know, off we go. Whereas I think for women it's deeper than that, right? It's often there's a story, a narrative, a building of something. Yeah, massively. Like I heard, it was so beautiful this morning I could hear Wes like talking to the children going like oh you're you got a good one there haven't you and you're just like oh you're so lovely and like when I see him doing like lovely things with the children I'm just like it's just so it's just lovely yeah and yeah I

suppose it is just this build-up of like oh, yeah. You're a good one. Yeah. No, that's so lovely. And that's kind of what that evoked, that dishes poem for me. It was just so glorious. Tiny lungs I loved. And I wanted to ask you again, I'm kind of jumping all over the place because that's the way my brain works.

It suits my brain very well. Oh, good. Excellent. Replay slash flash rewind do you want to talk to us about that poem yes that is I um I just preoccupied with like the passing of time very much in my writing and the magnitude of that I have to like I have to allow myself periods of time to think about it and then I have to be like stop and move on because the the magnitude of passing of time and just not wanting to miss anything not wanting to miss anything with these glorious children I mean god I like adore obviously everyone does I just adore them so much that I'm just trying to take snapshots and remember all of

these things because it's like unbearable how time is passing I look at Arthur and I you know just telling him every day how much like I love you so much you know I mean I'm sure he'll think back and be like she said that a lot didn't she it's just that just trying to capture it I'm just trying to remember it and I'm sure it's the same you know you have this long long day and you think, gosh, sometimes you think dinner time, bedtime. I'm keen to get them to bed. And then afterwards I think, I'm sorry, I didn't mean that. And there you're like looking at your phone, looking at pictures of them, just like, I love you.

So just this desperation to capture it. And I feel we've done a classic thing with Mabel where you know we've got reams and reams of video of Arthur and look Arthur it's a chip on the floor and he's like oh you know and for her it's just like oh she's 25 quick get a graduation um so I'm just again keen to be like stuff and try and get like videos of her as well and so that with replay rewind it's just literally a desperate attempt to try and capture this time on the page I try so hard I'm constantly trying to write that poem and that these are just iterations of it again and again and again of trying to like kind of time stamp onto paper burn it in my mind I can like remember and this year again this is one of the surprises

that came along I've developed this chronic eye condition where I was really losing my sight again sense of humor is coming into it and that's been an overwhelming piece of information so I can't really see very well out of my left eye now and it's devastating to me the thought that I won't be able to see the children's faces it's a really hard piece of information to kind of take on board so these poems again take on a form of trying to somehow write these things down onto paper to sort of forge the memory of when they were written and what I was looking at things like that so there'll be more of them just trying to kind of like capture it all really um but yeah I'm hopeful I do a lot of squinting like just seeing that it's just a it's like a hormone related thing I think so I'm hopeful that my right eye will stay well I don't even it's such a new thing I'm not quite sure what the correct terminology is around that but yeah yeah, I think a lot of my writing now

is going to be dealing with those kinds of things and the aging process. Try, as I said at the start of this little piece, I kind of allow myself pockets of the day to think about things like that because you can get lost down those rabbit holes and you don't necessarily need to. I think they're good ones to go down

because it gives you a huge amount of gratitude and it's good to um have them as a parallel with all the other wonderful things and it also gives you a huge amount of perspective when your daughter has jumped in mud or poo and they're you know freshly dressed and you're just like oh you know come on everything's okay we'll crack on on. So, yeah, replay rewind. I haven't got that one up. I've got some of the poems up and that one actually I might put in Arthur's room, I think. I love that one.

It's so beautiful. I'm so sorry that's happening to you. It's not fair. Bloody hell, universe. I know. It's black. But it's, again, it's just a new one that I'm working out that one it's not it's not like a definite we don't quite know what's happening with that so we'll we're just waiting to see but again you know I get to see things slightly

differently it's like trying to throw like some kind of positive. Didn't think that was going to happen. So, yeah. No. The older that you get, hey, life tends to just throw more things at you and you realise how little control you have over what's going to happen and if you think about that too much, it's scary. But I also find in the hardest times there's also kind of life becomes a bit technicolor and you see wonderful wonderful expression yeah yeah in that kind of real clarity it's like you wrote that phrase the light on a

sequin oh yeah and I just I loved that writing too for that reason because it is it's that like tiny glint of something it's so beautiful but so fleeting. And I can see that in your writing. That's kind of what it evokes for me. Yeah, and I just, yeah, I just loved it. I loved all your writing. I could just, I've talked to so many people about it because I just think it's so special. Thank you so much.

So appreciate it like hugely. I was so fortunate to have that Pandora Sykes recommendation because it opened up some wonderful connections for me it's just wonderful I love chatting with you I feel like you know I've known you for years and all these connections that it has created has been it's magical it's lovely particularly when the pandemic was going on because you're just like life's great life's amazing you know and like it's there is so much to cherish and so much to be thankful for and yeah it is that that when it is a bit difficult there's the light on the sequin to remember all the stuff that's like amazing now has been amazing and some amazing things to to remember absolutely that reminded me of the poem Christmas Box as well because we I think everyone has that

has one right in their cupboard well I do that you bring out and it's just this sort of rabble of strange dangly things that you put on your tree. And mine's sort of a collection of wonderful rose gold beautiful things that I bought before I had kids and now like laminated like weird Santas and like cotton swabs stuck on their faces and stuff. Yeah, do you want to tell us about Christmas Box? Yeah, I think that's again the one, the Christmas box in my mind is the one in my mum and dad's house where it really is that mix. I think my mum was trying to, like, bring back the good ones,

like as we got a bit older as well. Like we started to go to the special shop, the shop which isn't there anymore, and get the ones, like, every year we'd get one new special one. And that would be, like, I could see maybe that's, like, maybe that's a part of the womanhood thing that you have this transition the bauble transition where you have the beautiful ones then they get a bit crazy and then you're like slowly try and get the other ones back in again um yeah and it just reminds me of this box when at the bottom you've still got it

even though she might be like you know the shinier ones are coming in you've still got the weird like I don't I think it's like shredded wheat like sleigh which is very bent and I think most of the things have come off and you just look at it and you're like oh I love that sleigh like you know the just it's the like glitter bits and things and I just love that even then like my mum and dad are like there's the sleigh that's coming out and it's just it's just lovely it's absolutely I mean it just sums up so much about families where you're all vying for this notion of what you think might happen but really it's just this crazy little box with all of you in it and like that's why you love it and you wouldn't change it for the world and you know what if someone came along and said your box is kind of like you've got some odd stuff in there you'd be like it's my box you know it's like don't don't

say anything about my box because it's amazing you know and it's just like that's the beauty of families because yes Mabel's eating wires, jumping in the mud. But you're like, you know, and you might have your moment of thinking like, oh, okay, what time can we leave? You know, but if anyone else was to criticise, you'd be like, Mabel, jump in that mud. Eat another wire, eat that. You know, because they're yours. And I'm literally looking at our tree right now. And this year year Arthur has decorated

that on Saturday with the most pride and it looks it is I reckon our tree looks very similar to your tree right now top half very busy bottom half not much going on and as each day passes it the baubles are moving up because they were breaking everything because we were putting them on they were like oh arthur here's the one that you made oh no don't eat that it's just becoming yeah it's quite top heavy but it will be a thing of beauty and we've got our box now yeah so our box of like, the misshapen things all bunged in coming out every year and we absolutely love it. Yeah, our Christmas tree my son decorated with pride

and it has a love letter to Santa on the top of it with a transformer in grey lead written on the front. Yes. So good, good, good, good anyway. He's done it well. He's done it well. So funny. It's not, like that the hours of work that go in it's just like when they're doing all that drawing it's just oh my heart isn't it just like I love you yes please I'm so like have you heard that thing

like I don't know I can't remember who phrased it, but they say like, as your children go through their teenage years, it's the worst breakup you've ever gone through. And I am not ready. So yeah. I know it's a long time coming, but that's why it's just like every day, just staying in again. Yeah. Staying in. Good. Let's all stay in together. Yes. That's's what happens to me I leave the house and then I'll see a friend for coffee and on the way I'll be thinking these moments I'll never get back again and James is like well literally any weepings in for around the kitchen table yeah yeah she's like 19 months yeah yeah exactly but it is I know I read a piece of writing that broke my heart that was that with your son especially it's like a breakup and also that motherhood is like a series of small

griefs because each little person that you meet at that time you'll never see again because they get older each time I'm gonna make you cry and and I've already is amazing I'm taking that that's giving me goosebumps oh do you know the amount of people in my life are gonna be like well life is like all these series of I'm having that that's so beautiful oh thank you oh I love that oh look it wasn't me that wrote it I think it was a writer in Australia called Mia Friedman oh I have to write that down that's amazing yeah sorry also I can play it back I don't need to take notes no but take the note go for it I think that's really worth it and look I know we've reached an hour so I'm conscious that you have kids and life to get back to. But I feel like I could talk to you forever.

Let's be friends. Can we be friends? Yes, please. Yeah, well, I'm having you. That's it. Yeah. That's okay. Yeah.

Honestly, it's like an absolute treat for me. I, like, knew. I was like, yes, I can't wait for this. So, yeah, I've loved talking with you. Thank you. Oh, I've loved talking with you thank you oh I've loved it too and I really think that a lot of people will get a lot out of it as well I think we're all going to go and research perimenopause and menopause and try and figure out what the bloody hell we're in for that's what I think yeah after this as well well congratulations

it's absolutely beautiful your new book these, These Are My Delicious Sandwiches. Yeah, I should show you. So this is – it should be. Yours is on its way to you. So I'm really hopeful. I'm so excited. Yeah, I hope it won't take long. Do you know what?

I mean, I haven't even mentioned Brexit. So that's causing a few holdups, our end, but hopefully it will be with you soon. So, yeah, that's on um there's a link via my instagram where you can go and find the books and the postcards and my shop thank you just just because for a curious little mind what do you mean by brexit's causing the holdups we've just had a lot of problems in terms of things being uh distributed in terms like changing the way that we're packaging things up changing the way that how much the postage is it's just causing lots of problems yeah it's just it's just a little bit painful but I mean I'm just extremely anti-Brexit so I mean I'm sure

it could rain and I'll be like Brexit um but yeah I'm just so against it but yeah it's just cause for me I think in terms of um I've been really fortunate that I sell a lot of books in Australia probably because of your good self and also in America so in terms of shipping them out I was really keen to do things independently it's just the shipping costs are so high now but again it's also due to the pandemic there's a lot of holdups with things things taking a long time to ship across. So I hope it won't take too long. And you can join me soon for my hour-long discussion on Brexit

and the problems it's caused. I should probably do that. No, I should do that. I should do that. I thought you meant that you were giving a speech. I should. I can join you on Zoom. Excellent.

I'll be there. I'll be listening to all of it just be like an hour of me like swearing or something like that oh god that sounds to me like me on a regular day one of my mom friends has something she calls the and excuse my language the fuck cupboard and it's not for what you think it would be for it's for her to open the cupboard when she's with her kids and just go ffff into the cupboard shut the door and then yes of course i'll get you another sandwich well do you know what i need i definitely need a fuck cupboard because my son is like constantly like oh you said the f word again and I'm like oh I'm

sorry I'm sorry yes we all we all we need to get our house renovated at some point and I definitely am definitely adding a fuck cupboard onto the like that is amazing that's what you can tell the designer I love it fantastic well I should ask you before we go why is it called these are my delicious sandwiches so this one these are my delicious sandwiches was there's a poem in the book called sandwiches and it's a line that's taken from it and it was written because there's a few I have a few issues with people stealing some of my creative work and I also have some artist friends where their work gets stolen by big corporations and these are my delicious sandwiches it's all about this is my work and this is my stuff don't steal it please I might lend you some um but please don't steal it and

going back to that like you know just just asking before people take things and these are my delicious sandwiches is all is I wanted to call the book this because it's about this is my stuff this is my space I'm not afraid to take it up I'd really like to share it and I want you to be proud of your sandwiches too I mean it gets a bit tenuous but I want you to be proud of your sandwiches too and to own them and to be to be proud of them and share them when you want but people can't steal them so that's that's the uh pretty succinct uh explanation about what that is but yeah and I love it I'm so pleased with the title I love it because it's like yeah and Mabel you have your sandwiches you enjoy them and you'd be proud of your sandwiches and after too they're

like and share them when you want but people can't take them don't share pictures of them on the internet though yes yeah exactly these are private sandwiches just for the people that you want to share them with in person. Private, not online. We're not going there. No, thank you very much. Oh, literally, the discussion points are so vast, aren't they? I know. We've pinged around like ping balls in a machine.

But you know what? That's how my brain works and I really appreciate it. So you so much Jo this has been such a pleasure and I'll I've got a joy I can't wait to get to know you more because you're so much fun oh honestly likewise it's been an absolute pleasure I've loved chatting with you thanks for having me thank you oh you're welcome and there we have it. Don't you just want to go and grab a coffee with Jo? Wonderful. Anyway, I've been Claire Tonti, and this week you've been listening to a podcast with Joanna Bennett, the poet Tatterhood.

You can find Jo on Instagram at Tatterhood underscore or on her website, Tatterhood.co.uk, where you can order copies of all her books. A definite recommendation, especially if you need gifts for new parents too. You can find me at Claire Tonti on Instagram or on my other podcast, Suggestible, which comes out every Thursday

with husband man, James Clement. If you're after some recommendations for what to watch, read and listen to, head on over there. If you'd like to email the show, you can do so at tonspod.gmail.com. And super excitingly this year, the wonderful Maisie has jumped on our team and is creating an Instagram account for Tons, which you can follow along at TonsPod, that's at T-O-N-T-S-P-O-D. Or you can also do the same thing for our Suggestible podcast at Suggestible Pods. So

that's all over there on Instagram for weekly updates or daily updates, really. And we'd love to hear from you over there. As always, thank you to Roar Collings for editing this week's episode and a super special thank you to Jo for making the time to talk to me. All right. Till next week. See you soon. Bye.