TONTS. - The Stuff of Life with Charlie Clausen

Episode Date: September 14, 2021

Welcome to TONTS a podcast about feeling all of it. About the stories we are told about who we are. My guest this week is Charlie Clausen. Co-host of the beloved aussie podcast Tofop, actor in shows including Blue Heelers and Home and Away, Charlie is also a writer and producer working in partnership with his wife, director Gemma Lee. He is also Dad to one small human Iona and that’s what I wanted to ask him about today. Charlie hosts a podcast called Dadpod with Osher Gunsberg. The last time I sat down to talk to Charlie for my podcast Just Make The Thing we covered his life story and the story of his wonderful mum Eileen who passed away from cancer. If you’d like to listen to our chat there is a link in the show notes below. Today we talk about working and parenting and what it means to be getting older and grappling with life changing under our feet.For more from me you can head to www.clairetonti.com or @clairetonti on instagram For more from Charlie you can check out Tofop and Dadpod on all good podcast apps or head to www.tofop.com Fofop with Claire and CharlieJust Make The Thing with Charlie ClausenThanks you as always to RAW Collings for editing this episode. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello, Claire Tonti here. Welcome to Tonts, a podcast about feeling all of it, about the stories we are told about who we can be and where they come from. My guest this week is Charlie Clawson, co-host of the beloved Aussie podcast Tofop, actor in shows like Blue Heelers and Home and Away. Charlie is also a writer and producer, working in partnership with his wife, Gemma. He's also a dad to one small human, Iona, and that's what I wanted to ask him about today. Charlie hosts a podcast called DadPod with Osha Gunsberg. The last time I sat down to talk to Charlie for my podcast, Just Make the Thing, we covered his life story and the story of his wonderful mum who passed away from cancer. It was such a valuable

chat and if you'd like to hear that one, there's a link in the show notes below. Moving on from that, I wanted to talk more about where he is now in his life, parenting in a pandemic. And I think he had so much wisdom and advice to share in this episode for people, for all of us who are getting older and experiencing life changing under our feet. Here he is, Charlie Cawson. Charlie Cawson, hello. Hello. Hello, how are you going? Well, I mean, that's an interesting question this day and age, isn't it? How are you going? How is everyone going going i feel like there is a a collective um existential funk that is happening at the moment um just everyone you speak to regardless of where they are in life is just i don't know if it's a fact that all these events are happening at once

or the fact that we have social media that feeds all these events at once but it's it's so overwhelming like it is so overwhelming oh my god i know like last monday when all of the ipcc report came out about climate change and it was stuff that i sort of knew anyway i guess but seeing it in black and white so starkly that was a real low and then and i didn't think it could get lower and then they closed playgrounds today. So we're deep in a trough of pain. Yeah, it's so hard. I mean, I'm very fortunate. I'm in Queensland at the moment and we've managed to avoid the harshest lockdowns

in Victoria and New South Wales so far. We had like a very short one week lockdown up here but I just can't imagine what it must be like for you guys in Melbourne. I have family, you know, who live in Melbourne and, you know, we Skype quite regularly or Zoom quite regularly and it's just the fatigue, you know, they're just over it by now, this sense of like I don't even know what lockdown it is, what are the restrictions, fine like I don't even know what lockdown it is what are the restrictions fine I know James um my husband man he did not know we were living in a 5k

radius lockdown for the last week he just hadn't clocked on the fact that we couldn't leave our house more than five kilometers because he never leaves the house much anyway and it only kind of occurred to him recently when we were kind of just talking through stuff he's like oh that's right that's back again isn't it because it's just been in and out the whole time and I think for us yeah it's the fatigue and with two little kids not having any school or any child childcare or any means of anyone looking after them while we're still trying to run a business and a company has been a really interesting time. And I think we were fine, but like last year was really hard and there were points that were really hard,

but there was this sense of optimism that we were doing it because it will be okay eventually. But this one feels like we don't know if that's really true. And I think there's an undercurrent of like frustration and anger at the government, I guess, as well, which I don't know if that's fair. It's such an unprecedented event, but it does feel like how much longer can they do this to people, right? Like how much longer? Yeah. Well, that is, I think you've hit now on the head, it's unprecedented. So, you know, no one really knows. I have a friend who's an epidemiologist, you know,

who in Melbourne and, you know, he was the one, one of the doctors who was making a lot of the recommendations and, you know, he was saying that he couldn't take into consideration all the other factors around, well, you know, businesses are closing and this is the impact on the economy and mental health, because that's not his job. And if he started thinking about all that stuff, he couldn't do his job, which was to look at the numbers and look at the way the virus spreads. And this is the way you mitigate that, you know?

And so I think we're learning on the fly. You know, we talked about this on TOEFL, Will and I, about how, you know, you're right, like a year ago we were like, okay, we just do what the guidelines say and we'll get through this and suddenly we'll be on the other side. You know, Australia seemed to have it under control, a bit of geographic luck and some good lockdown policy were implemented early. But then with this new strain, all that's gone out the window and we're starting to wake up to the fact that, oh,

we just thought there would be like a clear, clear cut ending to this, you know, but what it's looking more and more like when you see what's happening overseas is, you know, where they are opening up and they are getting people back to big events and stuff is they're still having pretty high infection rates and stuff, maybe less deaths and stuff, but it's just going to be a combination of lockdowns and vaccinations for a while you know and I just I don't think there's any it's not a movie where you know we there's a happy ending where you know it's it's in a victory day and we've defeated the virus I don't think I think it'll be you know it'll be a just an incremental decrease in cases and you know people start forgetting about it and

it's just weird to be living through history that That's the thing that keeps me sort of like going around in my head. It's like this is what I guess it was like for our grandparents during the Second World War or, you know, any of these, if you live in a country that went through a civil war or some kind of famine or, you know, we've been very fortunate, you know, really, really fortunate where we live and times have lived in to not have experienced any significant like you know global hardship but we're living through it now and it's just

like you said climate change is like that's not even discussing climate change i mean that's the that's the that's the other thing on the horizon it's just just when you think you've got over one lump then there's you've just you've ridden your bike up one hill, you're like, oh, my God, that was exhausting. And then you look up and, Jesus Christ, now I've got to go up Mount Everest. I know. We were trying to watch the news just before and James was like, oh, God, Afghanistan, I can't handle it.

I'm like, oh, my God. And it's just the news itself is so overwhelming. And you're right, we're living through such a like tumultuous period of time in history and it feels like everywhere you turn there's just like catastrophic events and you know the breaking down of society and all this kind of stuff and I don't know it's such a full-on time to try and parent little kids, which is I guess what I wanted to ask you about because there's these huge global events like the catastrophe and heartbreak that's happening

in Afghanistan or like, you know, climate change. So really just the end of the world, just casually the end of the world, which are these huge, you know, COVID, these huge issues. And then you're like day- day to day with these tiny little people whose world is so small and whose world is you. How are you going with that kind of juxtaposition? Well, I mean, Ione is, you know, she's not quite two yet.

So she doesn't really have an awareness of anything, obviously, apart from the four walls and her mum and dad. I have been talking to other parents who have older kids, you know, eight, nine, ten-year-olds who are a bit more aware of the world. And, you know, they sort of say it's all relative to the kid's experience, you know. So Iona only knows her four walls. Well, maybe the eight, ten-year-olds, they know, you know, their school and to the end of the street

or a couple of blocks from their street. So they are aware of what's going on in the news. But it's the same, you know, I guess when we were kids and, you know, the threat of war between Russia and America or whatever was the Gulf War, I guess, you know, those conflicts were happening that you didn't quite have an understanding of until you got older. You're like, oh, my God, that was like we were right

on the edge of something serious happening there. Or, you know, that was seemed like a, like a huge miscalculation. So I think with what we're trying to do with Iona holistically, you know, disasters aside is just give her a really great childhood. You know, we made a decision about a year ago to move outside of the city, move to the country. Gemma grew up on a farm and has very fond memories of being in the countryside and the sense of community and all that kind of stuff. I'm a total city boy. I've never lived in the country, so it's been more of an adjustment for me, but I'm loving it. And I'm totally seeing the benefits of

community living in a small town. There's only about 5,000 people in the town we live in. And you do get this sense of belonging and, you know, people stop and say hello. And there is a genuine sense of caring and understanding and not that, you know, I dislike living in the city, but just by the nature of having 6 million people crammed into a very small space, you know, people don't really have time for that kind of stuff. So there's that side of it, which is like just giving her everything that we can, you know, as a child, like all the things that a kid would want, space and, you know, new things to look at and new experiences. And then the protection side of things, which is like we have been

on the move pretty much with these lockdowns, A, for work work because we need to be able to be mobile because, you know, we don't work from a single office. We go to where the work is. And so we sort of moved across the border to Queensland so we could travel from Queensland. This was before half the country went into lockdown. As it turns out, we can't go anywhere. And for a while we were locked down in queensland but

um it's actually been really good if you're going to look at the silver linings you know for the first two years of her life she's had both parents at home um you know working on and off and uh you know jem's probably been away more than i have because she'll you know fight a set to direct a commercial or whatever but you know that's that's a real privileged position to be in, probably like you and James. To have both parents at home, not a lot of families have that luxury. I mean, certainly I didn't grow up, my dad was, you know, away working. It was just me and mum or, you know, brothers and sisters.

So I think we're just, you know, anxiety aside and doubt about the future and the climate and all that kind of stuff aside, we're just trying to focus on each day, just enjoying the time we have with her. And that's the other thing too I'm discovering about being a parent is it passes so quickly, all those stages of their development, you know. I was sort of a bit anxious the other night, doom-scrolling about all the things that were wrong in the world. And then I just started going through my photos over the last 18 months since she's been born.

And I was like, oh my God, I don't want to forget any of this. Like that's all passed so quickly, her being born, her being a baby, you know, her, you know, being a toddler and her first words. And now she's like this other little person and she's starting to develop a real attitude. And there's all these little moments that I'm just trying to be really mindful and soak it in. And I was talking to another friend of mine who's a dad who's got two little boys and he was sort of saying like, you know, the boys are so high energy and it can be really overwhelming,

but he just has to remind himself that that little tornado will be a short time and there'll be a period in the future when he looks back fondly on, oh, do you remember when there were that little tornado will be a short time and there'll be a period in the future when he looks back fondly on, oh, do you remember when there were that little tornado? So that's what I'm trying to do. Even at the moment, Iona's, the only major issue she has is sort of sleeping like most kids, you know. She doesn't always sleep through the night or she can be a bit grumpy and, you know, and I'm just trying to enjoy that experience.

Like, okay, so it's 3 a.m. and I'm having to go in and soothe her and lie with her when really I just want to be in my bed. But I'm trying to reframe that and be like, this is amazing. Like I get to lie in bed with my baby girl, you know, and calm her down and hold her little hand and stroke her little head. And, you know, last night I felt her little arm come around my neck and hug me. And I was like, this is great. You know, like as tired as I am and as frustrated as you can get with them, because they are completely unreasonable and they take up all your time. And especially, you know what it's like when you've got things that you need to do and she just won't go to sleep. I'm just trying to go, this is not going to last forever. And there'll be a time I'm going to look

back and miss this. So I'm just trying to really enjoy like every second. Is being a parent what you thought? It's a good question. I don't know what I thought it was going to be. It's almost hard to remember what it was like before I was a parent. I've had friends say this to me before. Like once you have kids, you're sort of like, Jesusesus what was life like before this you because everything is so dramatically i think there's been a few things that have surprised me which is like you know the obvious stuff which is

just that depth of love you know it's something that you've never really felt before you know there's a great i can't remember which comedian it was on twitter an australian comedian wrote this great observation which is like having a kid is like having this little goblin that looks like you that follows you around that drives you insane but at the same time you do anything for it and I think it's true because like you know she kind of is this weird blend of both Gemma and I and at the same time she's her complete own personality and she's got her own quirks and stuff. But there is just this kind of, this fascination. And I try not to think into the future and like, you know, create a career for her and this is what she's going to be like

and this is what she's going to do. But you can't help it. You start sort of like fantasizing. You know, she shows an interest in something. I'm like, oh, maybe this is a sign. She's going to go on and be an artist or she's going to be an engineer or she's going to be this or going to be that but uh yeah i think i wasn't really prepared for how much i was going to be willing to give up all the other stuff like you know i do i do a lot of um the caregiving i guess

you'd call it i mean just parenting i guess it's not a not a special occupation. But, you know, Gem was often away from for work. And so I will be the primary caregiver. And I thought, I guess, prior to having a kid that that would be really hard for me, you know, career focused and stuff. But actually, you know, it's not that hard. Like, I love spending time with her. And don't get me wrong, like daycare has been a godsend. And it's amazing when you can get stuff done. But I can see why when people start families, they kind of cut off from their friends because suddenly you've got your own little unit, you know,

and all you really need is each other. And I think once that family starts growing and they become, I mean, you could probably tell me, once they start becoming more interactive and having more opinions, like then your interest in them would just increase further and further. Like you've got this person that you just want to, you know, find out more about, get to know them better. Yeah, it's totally true. And I think having two as well, because we've got one little person who's one and then my son who's five.

And I just think it's like watching them interact and then it takes it's so all-consuming you're right that's why you don't see your friends as much it's not because you don't want to but it's because there's finite amount of energy you've got I guess yeah you know completely and they are they're all like you just it's like unwrapping a present that's what i was thinking about every year um that our little guy gets older yeah you just find out more and more funny stuff about him and he's so quirky and cynical and sarcastic which does not surprise me being james's son and so and because i'm not like that at all it's quite funny getting to know him and his way of being in the world and his little community where we live as well. So that's been beautiful to kind of lean into all of that.

Do you, when you're like at home and caregiving and all those things, do you find that people are surprised that that's your sole occupation? Well, not sole occupation, but that's your main role? I don't think so. Not, not amongst, not amongst our group of friends. Cause you know, a lot of, there's a lot of like dads who are, you know, primary caregivers in our group of friends. I think the one thing I do notice is often at the playground, I'm the only dad at the playground. Like I, I don't, I see a lot of mother's groups meeting in parks and at the beach and stuff. I don't see a lot of dad's groups.

Like I tend to be the only dad there. But no, I don't think so. Like, no, I mean, I'm sure there are some people who would be surprised. But yeah, like I said, amongst our group of friends, you know, I mean, there's a lot of, we know a lot of actors and performers and people who don't work nine to five. So it makes sense that, you know, if you don't work nine to five, then you sense that you know if you don't work nine to five then you're free during the day to care for the kid and you know go to work at night and that's kind of what you know Gemma and I were sort of doing for a while as well when she

had a job on is I would just be primary caregiver and then you know put the baby to bed and I'll do my work at night. What tips would you have for dads starting out who maybe thought they would do more of that traditional role but wanting to work from home or look after their kids? What tips do you have? Well, I have a great podcast, Claire, called DadPod. Good segue. There you go, professional. Well, I mean, it's interesting.

That podcast, so I do it with Osher Ginsberg, as people might know from The Bachelor and The Master Singer. And so we, our wives, our partner, our wives had babies around the same time. And so we thought, why don't we just document this experience? And the first season was very, is done very much in real time. So it's like literally from, I think it's a month before, a couple of weeks before Oshu's wife gave birth. And then, you know, right up until three weeks after our owner was born.

And it's very in the moment and I was just like spinning out and trying to work out. And then Osh kind of like before we did the second season was like, why don't we actually do some research and give some dad some bonus rather than just like a kind of, what would you say, like a casual off the cuff. Yeah, well, just an off the cuff kind of two guys talking. Let's bring some facts and stuff to it which I think was really good I mean that would from a lot of the

feedback I've got from dads like they do find that really helpful and so if if there's dads who are preparing to be you know the primary caregiver or to change their business to work from home I think the key thing to keep in mind is you've just got to be flexible. Look, I'm in a situation where I can be flexible. Like I have certain deadlines per week where I have to get certain things done. But a lot of my other work is more, I guess you'd say speculative. You know, it's not going to happen until I finish whatever I'm doing and take it somewhere and try and sell it or get it made.

Even having said that, like it's just things change so dramatically and so quickly and you need to either prepare to have some time off from work or at least word your co-workers or your boss up to say, well, look, you know, we're about to have a baby. I'm going to be staying at home. So this would really help me out if we could reduce hours or, you know, I work on these days or if you could just give me a chop out because I think Jen went back to work two months after giving birth so pretty quick and it's it just sort of things just got a bit hectic for a while because even though she's going back to work as you know biologically she still has to produce the milk you know she still has to so you've got to coordinate all that kind of stuff for you know pumps and having milk in the freezer and nap times. And there's just a lot of stuff that

if one thing gets thrown out, then you can forget about having, you know, that four hours to knock over whatever you're going to do. And sometimes the baby doesn't go down, you know, sometimes the baby gets sick, you know, this kind this kind of stuff so yeah that moving to the country was really good because it actually we got more space and uh you know I was able to build like a dedicated podcast studio slash production studio slash office so you know having that dedicated space was good as well because trying to care for a kid you know in a tiny little apartment it's like well I mean love living in the city but maybe it's worth if you need space to work from home maybe it's worth

sort of moving out if you can um and just getting a bit more space because you'll learn quickly learn that the apartment fills up with toys and nappies and and everything it's very hard to get a clean workspace totally I'm really interested in, in tons we talk a lot about emotions and feelings and, you know, how we deal with the big stuff of life. From an emotional perspective, how have you found dadhood in general? I think it changes a lot. It's a whole mix of things. I think it's a daily peak and trough journey.

It's a daily mix of triumph and devastation, you know, exaltation and depression. You know, someone once said to me that, you know, it's the most rewarding thing but the most challenging thing. And I think that sounds trite and a bit simplistic. But I think emotionally for me I started to worry that maybe I was getting depressed or that I was having some kind of like, because it can get, it can get quite repetitive, you know, and if you, you know, prior to having a baby,

Gemma and I lived quite a, I don't want to say selfish, but it was, you know, we could do what we want. And our careers meant that we could, you know, fly somewhere at the drop of a hat. And, you know, we weren't beholden to anything. Now, suddenly you're grounded in a spot and you've got to stick to a routine and you can't just work all night, you know, to get this thing finished. And so I think there was a period where I just was like, shit, is this my life? Like, is this what it's going to be forever? And I also think that that's a combination of fatigue, maybe not exercising as much as you

used to, a whole bunch of things that tie into being a parent, which the best advice I ever got from a therapist was, you know, life doesn't move in a straight line. It's a wave. And it's impossible to think you're going to be up here all the time happy. And it's crazy to think you're going to be always down here really flat. Like, you know, you just got to learn that it's going to go like that. And what you're trying to do is recognize the difference between the two and go, oh, wow, isn't things great? You know, and enjoy that, but realize that that's not going to last forever and at the same time when things are bad going this is terrible it sucks but things will change you know tomorrow's a new day so i think that was the if i had to pick one overall feeling i think it was just that kind

of um yeah it was the uncertainty of what each day was going to bring and look if i can sound petty for just a moment and this. I'm all about petty. And this is not like a legit gripe, but just something that I've been wrangling with a little bit and talking to Gem about. And it's not a serious thing, but she's very much her mum's daughter. Mum is the one she wants and mum is the one that she like first calls for. And kids can be very blunt in the way they accept or request help. And it's sort of like it was a real ego challenge for me to be like, how come I can't settle her when she cries in the middle of the night? How come I go in there and she gets more upset?

And then Gem comes in and she calms down within two seconds, you know. And look, like I said, this is not a serious, I didn't genuinely think that my daughter hated me or anything like that. But there's a little part of your ego that is like, this is hurtful. Like I want my baby to love me and to be comforted by me. And you feel a bit rejected or not quite good enough. And, you know, obviously there's a zillion things going on there as well. It's like a chemical reaction, the hormone recognition that the child has with the mother. There's the fact that they were together for nine months before I came along. There's all these kinds of things. But, you know,

if I'm being honest, you know, there have been moments where, you know, I'm being honest you know there have been moments where you know I just feel like am I am I always going to be the support like is that my job is just to be like the support act you know like just I make the you know I clean I cook I clean and I get told to I can't come in for a cuddle you know like I get rejected at the door like she'll literally stand at the door and say no dad and I'm like oh okay so I can't even get a cuddle or anything like that so you know and then you feel the shame for feeling that because you're like she's a kid and she doesn't mean it and all that kind of stuff but like I said you know if I'm honest sometimes that hurts a little bit and they go through phases as well I think that's the hard part.

Like I remember our little people went through phases with that as well. And sometimes now Dad is the one that they want more than me. And I'm like, that hurts as well. Yeah. Like, oh, no, because they can be real jerks. Like really, you know, they can really push your buttons. And I think I was reading something about parenting and how it kind of is a mirror into your own like childhood

and insecurity, really show you with like real clarity all of that stuff about yourself. And so you want to have done some therapy and worked through that, you know, before you went through to it or you're really going to end up in hot water. But, yeah, I totally get that feeling. And shame I think is a hard emotion in general to deal with with this stuff because so much of parenting is also about expectations, like expectations of what you thought it would be, that you have for yourself.

And then you don't want to put your expectations on them either. But you sometimes just can't help it. You do. Yeah, it's a real, it's a real minefield. Are there things that you find really helpful to get you out of that headspace? Well, yeah. So I think getting healthy physically and mentally was good. So I think, you know, so Gemma and I went through like, we bought a house, we moved to the country

and it's all the middle of the pandemic. And so there's a lot of stuff going on. And I think I just let my eating habits and exercise habits slip a little bit, you know, all under the justification of, well, you know, like, you know, there's got too much to worry about now and it's Christmas and all that kind of stuff. And what I know about myself is I'm a lot happier when I'm physically fit and when I'm eating well. And when I'm, you know, not eating out, I'm look, I'm not a, I'm not one of those people who I'm not militant about my diet or anything. I just know what works for me. And so I know, cause I've discussed it with you and James before and we've exchanged like cookbooks and things like that.

But I just, I, about three months ago, well, funnily enough, I mean, it seems like a lifetime ago, we were planning potentially like an island holiday. And so we said, well, if we go on holiday, let's get fit, you know, we're going to get in our bathing suits. So let's, you know, let's do an eight-week exercise and we'll eat well and all that kind of stuff. I mean, it's just like, oh, everything went to shit. But it just was good because it's like I know that I work well with having a goal and structure. And so knowing that, okay, so it was going to be my birthday.

That was the goal date. And so I just, you know, I said, okay, I'm only going to cook healthy food. We're going to eat four meals a day, no snacks, no treats, no booze, none of this kind of stuff. And I always find that I always think when I start those kind of like health kicks or whatever, that's always, I'm going to hate it and I'm going to just want to rebel and stuff. But I actually think I'm quite a compliant individual once the ground rules

are established. It's good to have a buddy, like a partner, because you sort of keep each other accountable. But I don't want to make it sound like it was hard because it wasn't. It just required a little more effort in terms of I'm going to cook healthy. So, you know, just a lot of whole foods and vegetables and lean meats and all that kind of stuff. And I'm going to set aside an hour a day where I go for a walk, lift some weights, you know, do some kind of exercise. And the change to my mental state is like night and day. Like I don't know if it's the endorphin release or whatever it is, but I just feel better, you know. And it's not necessarily a vanity thing. It's, but it's a

genuine, like, I feel better in my body. I have more energy, you know, and I think it's, I love sugar. I've got a real sweet tooth. And, and the downside of that is it doesn't agree with me. I eat sugar, my skin gets terrible. It gets all red and flaky and eczema flares up and I get more irritable and tired and stuff like that and just when i'm when i'm healthy and and so now we're at a state where oh hello podcast dog little cameo sorry continue

uh she maybe she was heard me talk about food she's like food Sorry. That's okay. Maybe she heard me talk about food. She's like, food? Yeah. She was like, yeah, she totally is like that too. And sugar? Yeah, she'd eat anything, definitely. So now I'm like incorporating like treats and stuff like that again.

And it's good. I just sort of feel like without structure and without some kind – this is just for me. I'm not talking for anyone else, but I need to have routine, I need to have structure. That's why the last kind of month has been a bit challenging mentally because, you know, Gemma and I have sort of been in a state of limbo where, you know, we moved across the border so we could stay mobile for work but then all that work went away and now we're sort of like, well, do we go back to

New South Wales which is in lockdown or do we stay in Queensland where there's potential to get some more work uh but you know we're so we're living out of suitcases and I don't have any of my you know anything familiar around me so but having said that we just made the decision okay then this is what our day is not going to change that much you know wake up make iona breakfast we all go out for family walk then we take it in turns an hour each to kind of like you know i'll mind her you go do what you want to do and then we take it turns and then the afternoon becomes about work and so depending on who has the more pressing work engagement then you know we just sort of we take it in terms of sort of child care but yeah I'd say that that is the number one thing really is just it's just physical physical health and I

understand that not everyone is capable of doing that or is interested in doing that but that's what works for me no but there's there's definitely something in that I was reading a book and it was about trauma so I mean this isn't as, you know, I mean, obviously lockdown, the things are traumatic, but this was, you know, quite extreme trauma. But it's still, the theory was that often psychology is about talking from body, I mean, from mind into body. So you like talking about how you feel and somehow reliving everything will help. And that can help for people.

But his theory was also, you can go from your body to your mind. So in getting your body healthy and moving your body, you're actually shifting an energy within you that then affects the way you think. And I really believe that. I mean, it's not, you know,

that just running a lot will suddenly shift the way you feel about everything. Obviously there's lots of different strategies, but that really spoke to me. that just running a lot will suddenly shift the way you feel about everything. Obviously, there's lots of different strategies, but that really spoke to me. I felt like, I feel like through, you know, even yoga and slow movement and really high intense energy for me or exercise really does, is really the only thing that will get me completely out of that zone that I'm in, that, you know know that repeated kind of yeah thought patterns and like that downward spiral into like doom scrolling well especially

especially yoga because it's so much about the breath because that's the other thing I used to meditate quite a lot like every day I haven't really in the last year or so because kids and moving and all that kind of stuff. Why, Charlie? Why would I be not just around with your eyes closed? Oh, who knows? But there is something about that connecting to the breath. I was doing a course that was really interesting, actually, because it was a neuroscientific approach to meditation. It was sort of a bit less sort of hippy-dippy than other things I've done. And some of the times you do the meditation with your eyes open,

and it's really about connecting to consciousness and being aware of consciousness and the idea that things can just appear in your consciousness, like whether your eyes are open or your eyes are closed, so in your imagination or in front of you, that you have absolutely no control over, that are just random events. And so the idea being that you can let go of you know the feeling sense of control or the need to control those things because things just happen thoughts just come into your mind one of the the techniques that they taught me was so if you're having that kind of like you know everyone has that feeling it's 11 o'clock at night you're lying

in bed and you're just about to go to sleep. And then you're like, what if this happens? How am I going to pay this? And oh my God, am I going to need a root canal? Whatever the concern is. If you actually, rather than just let the thought go, you actually hone in on the thought and follow it to its root. And more often than not, what you'll find is there is no root. It hasn't come from anywhere. It's just appeared in your consciousness for whatever reason, a synapsis

fired and made you remember that embarrassing thing you said in front of a work colleague six years ago, or brought up that anxiety you have about money or love or whatever it is. But when you hone in on it and like drill down on it, you'll find it's come from nowhere. And so if it's come from nowhere, you can let it go. Obviously, there's other things that do have like a genuine cause and that's stuff that you do need to deal with. But I'm talking more about those anxious looping thoughts that you just don't understand. Why am I thinking about that thing that happened in the past? And one of the techniques that people can try, and this took a while to build up to, is it's this idea of when you close your eyes and you begin your meditation you start doing those

breaths is you start to try and imagine every sensation that you have so sight smell you know all the senses as one cloud of sensation so everything that your body all the information is taking in you try and feel it at once. And it sounds kind of overwhelming, but what it's sort of leading you towards or what you're starting to realise is that you can actually put your attention anywhere. You know, if you wanted to stop right now and just listen to every sound,

you'd be amazed by how far you can stretch that. You know, oh, I can hear what's in the room. I can hear what's outside the room. I can hear something very close to my ear. And I think that what we do as um you know animals that seek patterns and try and find meaning these things is we we feel a sensation we get a feeling or a sense gets triggered and we try and connect it to our lives you know and depending on your state of mind or how you're feeling about yourself you can use that as a rod for your own back or it can be something that makes you feel really good.

But, you know, I think for most people, you know, especially if you suffer from anxiety, those, they're just, they're reminders, they're little triggers, you know, to get you back into that negative headspace. And I think it's, I'm still, look, I'm very much a novice in all of this, but I'm understanding the principles. My mother meditated every day for like, you know, very much a novice in all of this but i'm understanding the principles my mother um meditated every day for like you know 20 years right up until the day she died and

she passed away so peacefully with such agency and i think well she's told me that it was meditation enabled her to do that because she was able to separate, you know, separate her attachment to what she felt, you know, she was owed. You know, she accepted cancer as like, okay, well, it's come from me. You know, I could go through the chemo and go through all that ordeal of staying alive and buying a few extra years, but I don't think I want to. And it was a real brave choice. I mean, her kids, we obviously wanted her to hang on, but she was like, I don't want to go through

the chemotherapy. I did it once and I didn't like it. And she's gone, I would rather just accept the fact that my body has produced this cancer and I understand that it's going to kill me in the end, but that's okay. I'm not owed any more life than this and so it's like if someone can have that much kind of grace and be that circumspect in death i'm like well shit i want to learn that secret you know i want to yeah i want to know how you get to that point i mean probably helps that she got to eight you know her 80s and you know had lived a long life and she she said herself if she was in her 20s or 30s, she'd be feeling very ripped off.

But I do think there is something to that idea of, you know, you are not owed anything by life. Like even your kids, you know, they come out as individuals. We think that, you know, they're ours because we made them. But ultimately they're not, you know. They're autonomous sentient beings and they'll go off to do their own thing and that's life in general i think we we spend our whole lives accumulating friends and objects and stuff and all this stuff kind of you know makes us feel better

but in the end you know you can't take it with you and i'm not trying to sound like negative but you know we all die on our own and so i just i'm hoping i can get to a place of acceptance with i don't know how we got onto this i'm so sorry it's fascinating oh fascinating because i i just i think at the heart of a lot of people's fear is fear of death right and fear of being alone i mean that's. And yeah, however we can get to a place like your mum, where we can accept the things that happen to us and then move through that is really powerful and comforting, I think, because we're living in a state at the moment where things are so out of our control, right? You know, everything is just happening around us.

And so weirdly, you know, that idea that we die alone and we need to accept it sounds really depressing. But I actually find that really comforting. I don't know why. Maybe because in the end we have that relationship with ourself is what we have, right? And so all... And everyone goes through it. I mean, it's the one thing that we all have in common, you know.

What's the cliche? Death and taxes, right? It's the one constant in life. But I think there is something to that, you know, that the romantic thing is that you and your partner will die at the same time, you know, holding hands. Yeah, you'll just notebook it out of there. Yeah, exactly. you know holding hands yeah exactly and i think that um you know that that is a that it's a that's

a fear of death thing when the the other you know if i can drop another pearl of wisdom on you that my mother left me with was you know in her life i made a few podcasts with her in her last six months you know we just um we just talked and i recorded the conversations and she was in a real good headspace for kind of like you know she was accepting it ready to go and i said to her like what is the one thing you want me to know you know if i if i if you could give me one bit of advice and she said that the only two things that you leave behind are friendships, relationships, and the things that you create. No one's going to remember the house you lived in or how much money you had or anything like that. Like it really is about the relationships and the things you create. Now, whether what you create is art or it's a business or it's some project or a hobby that you put your heart and soul into that is really

what lasts and she was so right because you know in the year after she had passed away we sort of we left her apartment um as it was for a year so that each i've got lots of brothers and sisters so that each sibling could come and spend some time in the house and get some closure and that kind of stuff and then when it came to kind of like dividing the stuff up, you know, we shipped a lot to charity, we sold some things and, and, and the rest was just sort of dumped, but it didn't really mean anything. Like I thought I was going to have a lot more attachment to all the things in the house, but once she was out of that place, I didn't have any attachment to, to her her apartment like it just felt like a an apartment you know and and i remember um we had shared this uh like a cabinet filled with like her priceless

crystal you know it was only crystal for christmas we could never get it out unless it was christmas and you know our family mythologized this this crystal set this set of crystals uh sorry crystal um crockery. What do you call it? Does that make sense? Yeah, glassware and stuff. It's such a classy thing. My mum has it too.

Yeah, right. And so at one stage we had this auction house come through and they were, you know, going to evaluate stuff and just tell us what's worth selling and, you know, whatever. And they got to the crystal set and they were like, oh, yeah, that's like 50 bucks. And we're like, no, no, no, you don't understand. This is mum's crystal.

And he's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, there's a lot of crystal in the world. And it's so true. Like stuff only has meaning because you put meaning into it. Like, of course, there's Fabergé eggs and gold bars and all that kind of stuff. I'm not trying to say money doesn't mean anything. But if you are looking or if i'm thinking about the stuff that i want to put my energy into it's it's the things that my daughter and my friends and my family will get comfort or some

joy from after i'm gone and i don't think that is necessarily necessarily me working so hard I can buy a Ferrari or something like that you know what I mean like I think it's I think it's other things and and I'm happy with that like I really have found in this new phase of life as a parent because we were late a lot of our friends had kids much earlier than us we sort of waited till you know our 40s that we're reconnecting with a lot of friends now who have kids because suddenly, you know, there's a common ground and, you know, events that you'll go to together. And coincidentally, about half a dozen, like, groups of my friends have all relocated around the same area in northern New South Wales. So we're having this, like, new lease on life. We all, you know, were friends in our teens and our 20s and we had that fun, you know, young and freewheeling.

Freedom. Freedom. And now we're all like, you know, almost middle-aged parents, homeowners dealing with that kind of shit, you know, getting left with an Ene note this time around, kind of like I was saying with Iona, taking note of even the bad times of really enjoying those times with friends. Because who knows if, you know, this might be a fleeting thing as well. It might be another five, 10 years where we all are hanging out and then the next phase happens and we don't see them again and I just want to make sure that that's the stuff that when I am you know my brain is firing its last few electrical impulses and I'm lying in bed that I can think back to those times and think back to like I had a good life and I had good friends and you know we did things and it's not that you have to travel the world and have a bucket list I just think

it's just worthwhile connections and experiences. I mean, some could argue if I put this much energy into my career, I'll probably be, like, world famous. Yeah, but I think it's about what gives you joy and what you prioritise, right, at the end of the day. And, I mean, you do hear all those stories. I remember that story about Nicole Kidman winning an Oscar and sort of being in a hotel room and being miserable you know and I and it isn't that career can give you a lot it absolutely can like I loved what you

said that yes it's the relationships we leave but also the art that we create as well that lives on and I it just made me think about things that my grandparents have made not that they bought but you know like or James's grandma we've got these rugs that she crocheted and they're really ugly but we love them you know because she made them and we're telling our son about them and that's this kind of legacy that gets passed down that's it's not about just stuff that you can buy but it's something that someone's made this kind of legacy that gets passed down. It's not about just stuff that you can buy, but it's something that someone's made that kind of lives on in that way. And I think that is more important than whether

or not you are world famous, you know. But there's a skewed perception, right, that fame equals happiness and money and all that. I mean, that's a very cliche thing to say. Well, I know lots of rich people who are miserable. Like, you know, I mean, I know it is a cliche, but I think that, you know, I've never really as like a, I mean, I guess I'd be kind of considered fourth generation Australian.

You know, I always felt like I never really had any connection to like a heritage like I it's not like you know Italian or you know like a Greek parents or something like that where it's like it's a clearly identifiable culture it's like well my mother's side was Irish my father has a Danish surname but I think he's more English but we were you know fourth generation so there wasn't a while third and I was. So there wasn't a lot, well, I was third generation. It wasn't a lot for me to hang my hat on. And I also didn't really feel any affinity to, I wasn't like nostalgic about family. You know, I'm the youngest of the big family,

but we don't really hang out with our cousins or anything like that. But for my 40th, my friends or, well, Gemma actually was more fascinated by my family history than I was. And, you know, my mum, her name was Eileen McSweeney. Like, you don't get more Irish than that. And so Gem was like, you should. Have you ever been to Ireland? Have you ever explored your family tree?

And I said, no. And she said, you really should. Like, I think you'll get something from it. And I always sort of paid it some lip service. But for my 40th, she organised all my friends to buy me a ticket to Ireland. And so we flew over there and we had like four days. Gem's Scottish and we were going to go see her family. But before that, we went to Ireland.

And I had contacted a cousin who had done a bit of a family tree. And it was a bit of a mystery. There was some kind of shady stuff. Not shady, but some records that had been lost. So it wasn't clear where my family is from we had we knew we there was a town called Kilgarvin and there and we knew that we were about six miles south of Kilgarvin there was a a family like a farm that the the McSweeneys who were the Sweeneys all came back from so Gemini spent a couple days driving through Ireland and you know

it's beautiful and we got to Kilgarvin which is literally like a tiny one horse and, you know, it's beautiful. And we got to Kilgarvan, which is literally like a tiny one-horse town, like, you know, nothing there, just surrounded by farms, a couple of cobblestone streets. And so we looked at my cousin's directions, you know, six miles south. There's only one road south. So we jump on that road and we're driving. And she said that, you know, it's near this bog at the bottom of the hill by the Slarny River.

And so we're driving and it was a really sort of rugged kind of like mountainous drive. And we end up at this sort of outcrop. And I said to Jen, that looks like a bog. I don't know what a bog looks like. And she's like, it does. And then I looked up and I was like, and that looks like a mountain. And so I followed my thing down the mountain and I could see this river.

And I was like, well, if it's between those three things, then, you know, let's get out here. So we pulled over and we didn't know if that was the area we took some photos and stuff and I was sort of looking at this land going like god this is such inhospitable rugged countryside like it's crazy to think that my great great great great grandfather came from here and so I picked up some slate stone from the ground to take back home to give my siblings it's like you know this is from the homeland anyway we're driving back through Kewlgarb and I said you know what let's stop off at the pub and I'll have a drink for my great great great great grandfather and you know and toast it and toast those who came before me so I've gone to this pub and the guy's like hey you're Aussie and I'm like yeah and he said so

what are you doing here and I said oh I'm just doing a bit of a family history tour. And he said, what was your family's name? And I said, oh, they're the McSweeneys, but I think it was Sweeney. And he's like, oh. He said, there's a Nellie Sweeney who lives across the road. I wonder if she's any relation. And I'm like, I don't know. Let's go find out.

So we went across the road and we knocked on the door. And this ancient lady, this little lady called Nellie, like 80 years old, opens the door. And she's like, oh, come in. Like did not hesitate. Like the Irish hospitality. So he brings us in. And so Gemim and i sit on and she's making us a cup of tea and she's just talking as if she knows us and we're like oh my god does this woman have dementia or something like and she's sort of rabbiting on about you know and this family went over to there and that family went over to there and blah blah blah and and i said sorry i

said are you saying we are related and she she's like, well, no, no. And she goes to her kitchen and she builds up these two giant plastic tubs filled with documents. And so Gemma's filming the whole thing. And so we're going through the documents and I'm like, oh, my God, there's like my great-great-grandfather's travel documents to Australia. Go through that. There's my family tree.

There's my father. There's my mother. There's my family tree. There's my father. There's my mother. There's me. And so this woman was my mother's second cousin. So her grandfather and my mother's grandfather were brothers. So they were second cousins. And so I said, okay, so we're related somehow. Like I guess you're my second aunt, like once removed or whatever it is.

And so she told me the whole story about you know yeah the Sweeneys were a family of nine they grew up on a farm and I said was it a farm you know six miles south and she's gone yeah and so we'd actually found the land where we were from and so she was and so she told us the whole family history there was nine children um they were illiterate you know they only spoke gaelic um they wanted a better life for their kids so they sold most of their farm and they bought four tickets for america and five tickets for australia and they sent the kids knowing that they would never see them again like and so um you know she said that they've you know they've

gone on um you know there's someone to america someone to australia and she's gone there was like there's six thousand descendants and i'm like that can't possibly be right but then i sort of brought up my phone i was like okay so you know there's nine kids in that original family if each kid had nine kids because i'm from a family of nine and it was easily 6 000 so like from that one family but then you know getting the story of of how like you know where they'd gone and how and and suddenly I was plugged into my family history and it became very important to me I'd never cared about it until that point until I had met someone and I mean it's so bizarre like but I started to see the resemblance like that she I started to see that she looked

like my mother and then you know talking to her we started to have the same mouth and even though she had this really thick Irish accent and then because Gemma's always teased me about my hands she she says that I have these little Irish hands only good for digging potatoes which is quite racist but but then but then she's gone up to Nellie and she's gone can I see your hands and Nellie's held up this little paw just like mine and so we put our little paws together it was it was amazing and it was just it was such a magical moment and you know I tell that story as a way of sort of saying like that's something that I'm going to remember forever and that was and that was so important you know for me to have done and and I'm so grateful to Gemma to push me to do that

because I hadn't really considered it. And I just think that it's not like everyone has to have that where did I come from moment, but I just think having an awareness of that stuff and connecting to your family, like some cultures it's much more important, you know. Right. And, look, I think because we are a country of migrants right and a lot like my ancestry there's a lot of like convicts back there you know I think I like my great great great grandmother was like a prostitute who stole a watch and got put on a ship you know and then another one was like a cattle rustler

and then she ended up kind of parlaying that into marrying some wealthy guy and being his mistress but then she got to marry him and you know had kids like there's a lot of kind of you know stories like that in our history in Australia of us all coming from different places right like like recently or a long time ago and there's this quote I always think about when I think how lucky we are to be here and I often get or I used to get really guilty about how privileged we are and how lucky we are to be in this country and all the things that we've got and when we I've traveled in other places and we lived in Tanzania and in other you know situations I thought why is it that we're so lucky and then

Maya Angelou I was reading a book of hers and she has this quote about that your ancestors have paid for your crown I'm butchering her um so just put it on and walk because your ancestors have been through hell and the reason that you have the gifts that you have today is because you're walking on their shoulders and this does sound really corny but i i often think about that because i think yeah my you know great great great grandmother was 14 and living in london with nothing and you know and a prostitute and stole a watch and somehow her ancestors now living in australia and i have I have an ability to make whatever I want, live however I want, you know, with all of the opportunities

we have here. And how pissed off would she be if I knew I was sitting around in my lovely house being like, oh, I feel so guilty for being so lucky. Like, you know, she bloody survived the first week. Like I think, God, they must have been made of tough stuff. Like your ancestors to make it from there to here, not speaking a word of English and, you know, and that's the story I think of, you know, refugees

and people who are living here now, right? And so almost all of us, unless you're a First Nations person, have got that kind of story somewhere in our history of a journey from somewhere else to here. Yeah. And I think it does give you a lot of, or it does give me anyway, a lot of kind of grounding to understand that for where you've come from. It's very boomer-esque to be really into your family history too. Yeah. We're getting to that age. We are. I was just imagining my like 18-year-old self

and laughing about all of that too. But it is really valuable. And then I guess having kids too makes you think more about where you come from because so much of who they are will be kind of, you know, about what you are about and the way you've raised them. Yeah, well, you just want them to know, don't you? Like the crazy thing about Iona, everyone assumes she looks like Gemma because she's fair and she has her mother's eyes.

You know, Gemma has very beautiful, you know, blue eyes and so does Iona. But she looks exactly like my mother and that's the crazy thing is that I've put photos of her and my mother at the same age side by side and it's identical and it's just such a I mean it's not it's not bittersweet you know mum died six years ago now so there was never really a crossover but there is I do feel a sense of kind of heritage and, you know, mum was very proud of her Irish roots, even though I wasn't, she was, you know, and, you know, I just, I want Iona to be aware of where she's come from now that I know the story too, because none of my family knew that story that I just told either.

Like we had sort of an awareness, but a lot of records were lost in the Irish Civil War in 1917 or whenever it was. Like whole families have lost history there because, you know, all the documents got destroyed. And so, you know, I want Iona to be aware of that. She doesn't have to honour it. I don't expect her to celebrate St Patrick's Day or anything like that. But, you know, like I said, I just think it's good to know

where you've come from because I think it says a lot about the sacrifices that were made to get you there but also give you a sense of perspective. And I was very humbled by that experience. Nellie actually passed away only a couple of months ago. Her grandson messaged me. He was a big fan of Home and Away. He was a bit blown away that he's related to the guy

yeah Home and Away royalty yeah that's right so I said to Gem like I wonder if my great great great grandfather uh would feel good knowing that you know that sacrifice selling the farm led to his uh descendant becoming a B grade TV star I know it's pretty amazing. It's wild, all these stories, isn't it? Really? Okay. So one question I wanted to end with, I guess, and obviously it's so beautiful that Iona is like your mother, raising a girl, and this is sort of a gendered question. Well, it is a gender question, I guess. Does that feel different to you than if she had been a boy? Are there things that you want for her that would be different if she was a boy or things that you worry about?

Or is it not really something that enters your head? I don't know. I mean, how would I know unless I, you know, I had a choice. You had a boy, that's true. But here's what I will say is, you know, I grew up with six sisters. My father died when I was quite young. So I was in an all-female household from a very young age. I have a lot of very close female friends.

I have absolutely no issues when it comes to hanging out or relating to women. I feel like I've been doing it my whole life. And so when Gem, when we found out we're having a girl, we found out early, like Gem wanted to know. And, you know, she was over the moon. She really wanted a girl. And I hadn't really thought about what I wanted.

Like I was, you know, going to be as long as, cliche, as long as they're healthy, I didn't mind. I think there is something special about a father's relationship with his daughter i don't know really how to articulate it but it it's there's something about i don't know there's something about that dynamic i think it's it's it's quite beautiful you know because she she makes she makes you how do i say this without being like genderizing, you know, or cliche. Yeah, yeah.

But I feel like I am getting more insight into, you know, into women by I've known adult women my whole life. I've known like kids, my sisters, and I've never known a baby. I've never known one from a baby. Yeah. And I'm getting that insight and I'm starting to a baby. I've never known one from a baby and I'm getting that insight and I'm starting to sort of like learn about like in a lot of ways we're very similar but in a lot of ways we're very different,

you know, and I don't want to make this an argument about gender and gender identity. It's a minefield. And it's a big spectrum, absolutely. It's a big spectrum but what I'm seeing with her is definitely very different to how I was raised and my experience of the world and I am really grateful for having this old you know I'm seeing her discover the same things that I

discovered when I was her age but you know her interpretation and the things that she's drawn to and and we are not the kind of parents who buy her like pink dresses or you know Barbie dolls or whatever it's it's whatever she shows in like i mean many people have thought she's a boy because you know she'll wear pants and you know doesn't dress necessarily male or female but there are some things that she's sort of naturally drawn to which you would argue are you know more feminine like she does seem to have that more nurturing quality in the way she sort of like interacts and her gentle nature and she's so kind and considerate of her feelings like it's really odd to like to say that about someone who is so young but she really i heard um i can't remember who

was saying that like kids are so much smarter than you give them credit for like they yeah they may not be they may not be able to say it but um in like intuitively they can pick up on stuff. And she just, she's just, she's a very kind kid, very forthright and knows what she likes. And, you know, it doesn't suffer fools gladly. But there's just this kind of beautiful energy that I feel like, you know, it's a feminine energy. And I'm just, I feel really grateful that I get to have a hand in nurturing it.

And this is, you know, whatever she becomes in the future, whatever she chooses for her own life. Yeah, and I think that term like feminine energy is such a beautiful way of phrasing it. I'm not an expert in any of this, but I do think you can be male and have a feminine energy or vice versa. A hundred percent. But there is that

there's something unique about that i guess that and i understand that having had our daughter they're just different they're two different people but there is a feminine energy to her that is um really interesting well it's a whole it's a hormonal thing as well you know like in in the way they sort of interact like boys and girls that you know you can sort of see it sometimes i'll see little boys at the playground it's like they're like little chimpanzees they're just so full of testosterone and energy and like they just have to climb and jump and bash into things and stuff like that it's like you know i understand that it's a spectrum but there are some pretty distinct differences at the very end of the spectrum right

and that's i think what's so interesting because we've we tried really hard to parent in a way there are some pretty distinct differences at the very end of the spectrum, right? And that's, I think, what's so interesting because we've tried really hard to parent in a way that was non-gender specific and just like let him and her kind of gravitate to what they will. And obviously this is complicated, but there is definitely like watching, like our son is really obsessed with like guns and shooting things and battles all the time and our daughter and I know that you know this can be different in different situations this is just our experience our daughter like if we're having an argument in the house for people

raise their voices even in fun she kind of mirrors that and gets like she looks at me and gets empathetic yeah like gets worried about it or is confused about it which is not something that we saw with our son as much yeah Gemma's had to caution me about raising my voice I was watching the football on the weekend and she was like even when I'm cheering she's like don't like don't yell because it's like it could be misinterpreted that you're upset I mean you you mentioned the way at the top of the podcast about, you know, you sort of start to realize, you know, the way you were parented starts to come out when you're a parent. And, you know, that is sort of something that I noticed. I've noticed, look, A, I've got a

mustache now. And, you know, my dad had a mustache. That's only happened since I've become a dad. But there is, but my memory of my father, you know, I was 10 when he passed away and I do remember him being kind of anxious, you know. He was kind of uptight and seemed to have the weight of the world on his shoulders. He had nine kids, so it's not really – So you probably literally did, actually. Like, how did they do that? But even as a kid, you know, I remember his, you know,

his tension, you know, radiated off him. And I remember it affecting me as a child. Like, I sort of was like, oh, God, like, you know, his tension, you know, radiated off him. And I remember it affecting me as a child. Like I sort of was like, oh God, like, you know, dad's come home and he's in a mood and all this kind of stuff. And, you know, Gemma and I had a lot of talks before Anna was born about how I was going to mitigate that because I have a tendency to do the same thing where I get kind of anxious or wound up and I'm not very good at compartmentalizing, you know.

I sort of wear my heart on my sleeve. And so there's been moments where I've gotten frustrated or annoyed with her or she's not done what, you know, she's told or she's just relentlessly, you know, how kids can be. And I find these little flashes of my father come out, which shocks me sometimes because you always think you're not going to parent like your parents did.

You know, I'm going to right all the perceived wrongs. But then I guess in the end we are just the product of our parents. Yeah, totally. It's just been these little flashes of like, oh, my God, that sounds like my dad or I just, you know, in the memory of my father I feel like I'm repeating him, playing his

greatest hits sometimes it is so strange and for someone who's an artist and lives well did live near barren bay and like you know you guys are so real you know relaxed and in that world it is so funny isn't it to think that you still have your dad's energy somewhere in there for sure i know the way we get parented there's so much about it it's so interesting I was just talking to a psychologist who works with a lot of parents and kids for an episode coming out tomorrow actually and she said this beautiful thing which was parenting isn't about being a perfect parent at all and your kids don't expect you to be that it's about the relationship that you have with

them and it's not a friendship because that's different it's that relationship with understanding and accepting who they are and being curious about who they are and them understanding that you are also a person who makes mistakes and has emotions and how you deal with them afterwards is what matters. And if you can keep that line of communication open, then once you hit the teenage years where things get terrifying and a bit hairy, at least you've got this communication line and that relationship over years of honesty and sort of saying how you feel about things and being calm about it too, but being curious as well and also rather than clamming up.

So, you know, like I think when we were kids, when there was big emotion in the house and people were yelling or things got really intense, then no one said anything about it afterwards and just pretended like it didn't happen. Yeah. But being able to enter in and go, oh, man, I got so angry then. I felt it. I'm so sorry.

I just, this was what made me frustrated and this is what I did to help me out with it. And that we've been, and I don't know if it's going to work because obviously our little guy's five. It's an experiment. But that's what we've been trying to do, you know, when there's that energy in the house when you've made that mistake because we all fly off the handle and say things we don't mean and yeah make mistakes and um Carly McGoran is the psychologist she's wonderful and she was

saying you know you just you're having imperfect conversations about everything all of the time but as long as you keep having the imperfect conversations then you'll be okay you know I think that's great advice. It's really, I mean, that's the one thing that I'd say, you know, even after my father died, I had a great relationship with my mother. I wasn't really a rebellious teen and I think it was due to that she was very open.

I mean, she actually did an interesting technique which she put all the responsibility on me. So as a teenager, I didn't have to like call her, you know, when I went to a friend's place to let her know I had a teenager, I didn't have to, like, call her, you know, when I went to a friend's place to let her know I had arrived safely. I didn't have to update her. She would just say, hey, just go do what you want to do. If you get into trouble, call me. But until that point, I'll just assume that you are smart enough

and you're going to make the right decision. And you know what? It's actually once you get handed that much responsibility, you're like, oh, shit, like I kind of am on my own. But it was also that, you know, it was a sign of respect. You know, she sort of granted me with enough intelligence and common sense to go, well, look, you know, I understand that you're curious about the world and you're going to make some mistakes, but I trust that you'll be able to deal with them. And if it gets too heavy, then I'll be able to help you out. And I think that think that's a really that's really a great philosophy that's what I would love to do with Iona is just be

have a real open dialogue with her so and establish like you say establish that groundwork so that when she eventually turns emo which will happen that she still feels comfortable that she can come to come to us and talk about anything mean, I've got friends who have teenagers who are like, you know, more than one group of friends who have great teenagers. And I think it is all down to what you've just said. It's just they don't, it's not like they separate being parents from their normal personalities. They parent as the people they are, warts and all.

And in some ways ways like i've got one friend who she swears like a trooper like every swear word under the sun f and this and c and that and f and that and her daughters are like you know 13 and 16 and are so well behaved and would not think of swearing even though mom and you would have thought they'd have like the green light but it's almost like the other way the opposite way but they're they're great they're really good kids oh that's really good to know well you've made me feel a lot better charlie this has been great sorry i know when i'm a few a few rants there i tend to do that all the time i didn't sleep very well last night so i could be with Iona as well.

Oh, mate, none of us have slept. Where will we sleep? What is sleep? I have not slept a full night in six years. So that's where we all are at. No, thank you. That's been so valuable. It's just been so lovely to see your face as well.

Yeah, you too. And talk. It's been so great. Well, while we have people listening, we should probably let them know that I have another podcast called F fault that claire is going to be a guest on probably next week or the week after will and i take it in turns to to have guests so uh just go to tofop.com and look for claire and if you like this episode there'll be more to talk about i'm sure when claire appears on faux fault yay oh thanks i'm really looking forward to that. That'll be really fun. Thank you so much, Charlie.

And where else can we find you at the moment? Well, it's all podcasts at the moment because there's not a lot of production happening in Australia. So any information for anything that Will and I are doing, it's all at Tofop.com. Cool. Excellent. All right.

Thank you. Thank you. You've been listening to a podcast with me, Claire Tonte, and this week with Charlie Clawson. For more from Charlie, you can check out Tofop and DadPod on all good pod apps or head to tofop.com where you'll also find a link to a chat I did with Charlie last week for Fofop, which is a spin-off podcast from his main podcast,

Tofop, he does with Will Anderson. I loved that conversation too. And it was really interesting. I've had a lot of Charlie catch-ups recently, which is always a joy. For more from me, you can head to claire20.com or you can also go to Instagram at Claire20, where I like to tell stories over there. As always, thank you to Raw Collings for editing this episode. And if you want more, there's loads of podcasts. If you scroll back in the feed, I have interviews with Claire Bowditch and Jamila Rizvi. And also, if you'd like to get more updates for this episode, please subscribe, rate and review. It helps me get this show made. I'd really, really appreciate it. And that's it

from me this week. Sending big love to you out there. Okay. Bye.