TONTS. - Womankind with physio Kym Veale

Episode Date: June 10, 2022

My guest today physiotherapist Kym Veale has been a really special person in my life and in so many women’s lives, particularly for women who experience pregnancy and birth. I’m so glad I can share her wisdom and insight in this episode. Kym Veale is now director of her own company called womankind physiotherapy, a beautiful space that supports women’s health particularly in the areas of birth preparation and post birth recovery, pelvic floor function, incontinence, mastitis and breast feeding. She also works with children and families to resolve bladder and bowel accidents including bedwetting. She is an advocate for education about all things vulvas, periods and also sexual function for women too. An area that is often underdiagnosed and misunderstood or really just not discussed at all. We also talk about prolapse in this conversation and I learnt so much about women’s bodies that I previously hadn’t fully understood. I want to also acknowledge in this episode that there are also people who have wombs and experience menstruation who don’t identify as women (or for that matter women who do not have wombs) but who will still absolutely benefit from access to this knowledge and this episode. Even if you are not planning to have children yourself there is so much to be gained from Kym’s wealth of knowledge and experience in this area. She has some really strong messages about caring for ourselves and our bodies in a holistic way and the absolute awe and respect we should have for women who give birth.Kym obtained her degree in Physiotherapy, as well as post graduate certificates in advanced pelvic floor rehabilitation, and exercise for women through the University of Melbourne.For more from Kym you can head to her website www.womankindphysiotherapy.com or follow her on instagram @womankindphysiotherapyFor more from Claire you can head to www.clairetonti.com or @clairetonti on instagram You can email the show at [e-mail] credits:Editing - RAW Collings and Claire TontiTheme music - Avocado Junkie Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which I create, speak and write today, the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation, and pay my respect to their elders past, present and emerging, acknowledging that the sovereignty of this land has never been ceded. Hello, this is Tons, a podcast of in-depth interviews about emotions and the way they shape our lives. I'm your host, Claire Tonti, and I'm really glad you're here. Each week I speak to writers, activists, experts, thinkers, and deeply feeling

humans about their stories. And do I have a gift of a conversation for you today. My guest today in this episode is Kim Veal, and she's been a really special person in my life. And I know in so many women's lives, particularly for women who experience pregnancy and birth. I'm so glad I can share her and her wisdom and insight in this episode. Seven years ago, I gave birth to my son and experienced so much trauma, both physically and emotionally for a lot of reasons. I felt shocked by that time, isolated and really alone. A friend recommended I go and see Kim to help with my recovery. And when I looked her up, I found a blog post that she had written about her own experience of first-time motherhood and

postnatal depression. It was called Expectations. And immediately I felt she was someone who I could go to and who would not only be able to help with my physical recovery I'd experienced a lot of tearing during that pregnancy and birth but I also thought she would be someone who would understand and listen to my fears get how exhausted and traumatized I was and make me feel supported and safe. Fast forward seven years and Kim Veal is now director of her own company called Womankind Physiotherapy, a beautiful space that supports women's health, particularly in the areas of birth preparation and post-birth recovery, pelvic floor function, incontinence, mastitis and breastfeeding, as well as the musculoskeletal, there you go, I did it, pain associated with pregnancy. She also works with children and

families to resolve bladder and bowel accidents, including bedwetting. Kim obtained her degree in physiotherapy, as well as postgraduate studies in advanced pelvic floor rehabilitation and exercise for women through the University of Melbourne. Kim is an advocate for education about all things vulvas, periods and birth and sexual function for women too, an area that is often underdiagnosed and misunderstood or really just not discussed at all. We also talk about prolapse in this conversation and I learned so much about women's bodies that I previously hadn't fully understood. I want to acknowledge as well in this episode that there are also people who have wombs and experience menstruation who don't identify as women but will still absolutely benefit from access to this knowledge and this episode. Even if you are not planning to

have children yourself, there is so much to be gained from Kim's wealth of knowledge and experience in this area. She has some really strong messages about caring for ourselves and our bodies in a holistic way and the absolute awe and respect we should have for women who give birth because it is an extraordinary feat. Anyway, let's get on with the show. Here she is, Kim Veal. Hi, Claire. How are you? I'm really good. That's good. We've just had the funniest conversation, haven't we? We just end up,

because I've known you for years. You helped me out with my, after the birth of my son, but we've found out since that we've got mutual friends kind of everywhere. A few connections going on. Yeah, exactly, which is so lovely. So it's actually so nice for you to come and sit on a rainy day and chat with me. Thank you for having me. Oh, you are so welcome. Okay, so I thought I'd ambush you.

I wanted to tell you because one of the reasons I found you when I first went to see you after my son and the birth of him, a friend of mine recommended you and then I looked you up on the internet and I found this piece of writing that you wrote called Expectations. Oh, yeah. Yeah, about motherhood. Yep. And I wondered if, just to start, if you wouldn't mind reading a part of it

for us? Absolutely, that's fine. Would that be all right? I know it's quite long, but I'll give it to you to read because it really made so much difference to me at that time in my life after I just had my son and I was so overwhelmed and it made me feel so less alone. Oh, wow. Yes. That was the intention, I think, when I wrote it. I did write this a very long time ago and it was one of the first pieces of writing I wrote. I found writing really, and I still find writing really helpful when I'm struggling with a concept.

So for me, this was also very therapeutic. All right, expectations. The most common question I was asked during my pregnancy was, are you excited? After hearing this for the 20th time, my response was reactionary and immediate. I would break out the big smile, nod profusely and explain I couldn't wait. And it was the truth. But the effect of this question was like hypnosis for me. It solidified my subconscious thinking that parenthood was meant to be and was going to be exciting. Even if I may have read a chapter on settling, listened to the antenatal sessions on juggling time in the

postnatal period, these concepts were abstract and hard to tangibly imagine. The overwhelming emphasis from my world was that this was going to be the most exciting and rewarding journey of my life. Then, diagnosed with postnatal depression when Lily was six months old, I was perplexed. This was meant to be exciting and rewarding. Why was I finding it so difficult? How is it that millions of women have done this mothering caper the world over? And I feel it is beating me. I was young, healthy, fit and educated. I had read the books and attended the classes. At my kindergarten age five, my teacher proudly announced I wanted to be a mum when I grew up. Bring it on. The reality? You all know it. Turn on the broken record. Tired beyond all scope of possible

imaginings. Feelings of defeatism as a tiny person upends your life and makes you feel inadequate. Body changing issues, a feeling of distance with your partner, watching your friends go overseas and earn money and attend trendy wine tasting events. I thought there was something wrong with me. Now I know there wasn't. My expectations were just so far from reality that I had lost before I had begun. I tried to keep up the performance of being on top of everything and happy. It was exhausting. But why did I do it? I'm still not entirely sure. Maybe because I didn't want to let down everyone who was telling me how happy I should be. Maybe because people don't want to visit you when you're a vomit-stained, unwashed, teary mess who keeps falling asleep.

Sounds very familiar. Maybe because I thought I'd fool myself if I kept on the hamster wheel. Did it work? Yeah, maybe, sort of, not really. What did work? Talking. Well, for me anyway. Mother's group was brilliant. Eight other mums right there in the trenches with me, sleep deprived, angry at their husbands, feeling like slaves to our six months old. It was gold. We used to open a bottle of wine at 12.30pm and get it all off our chests. Then I had to talk to a psychologist for a bit as well. Similar issues, less wine and more expensive, but also very helpful. Should one in seven mums experience postnatal depression? It seems wrong to me. So I find myself asking, what are we doing as a culture, as a society that makes this feeling of defeatism and sadness so profoundly common in new mums? I mean, that is such beautiful writing and funny and spot on.

And you ask a question at the end, and I know I'm supposed to be coming up with questions, but it's a really good question. Why do you think that women, that's a common experience? Why do you think women feel like that? Yeah, it's a good question for the ages. I feel like that's one that we're still kind of grappling with and I probably don't have all the answers, although I've got a few ideas. And I do think there is an expectation.

I remember around the time that I wrote that, blogs were not really a thing. Definitely social media to the extent it is today was not a thing. And every now and then I would come across a piece of writing or something that another mother had written or social commentator had written. And I remember just consuming these stories of other women that had struggled or were struggling with motherhood and feeling like it was a lifeline. And I just, I would read these things and like read them out to my husband and be like, oh my gosh, I'm not alone. I'm not the only person that finds this hard. And I don't know, you know how your social media feed is like an echo chamber. So the things that you click on

end up coming back at you. So I don't know if everyone's news feeds are like this or if it's just mine, but I definitely have a lot of people that I follow sharing stories of the difficulty of motherhood and the struggle that is having a family and raising a family and definitely, you know, things around their physical health and mental health. So I think that is actually really healthy and I hope that the new mums today are seeing the truth a bit more than maybe when I, because my eldest is about to turn,

well, she'll turn 14 at the end of the year. So at that time, I think it was more traditional media like magazines and I guess maybe even like television shows, like really, really not real scenarios. That was forming my expectation. And I think, and I hope that now it's a little different. Social media has lots to answer for. And I really, I really have a lot of issues with it. However, what it has allowed is real people to present their real life. And that sounds wrong too, because I know social media doesn't do that a lot of the time. And a lot of the time people just put up the best bits or the show reel or, you know. Yes. But media, I don't know. It's,

yeah. I mean, I, I even felt my son's six. And so even six years ago, the narrative that I had going into it was so different to the experiences of friends of mine going through pregnancy now. Yeah. You know, there's so much more information, I guess, and there's a willingness to share and be open. Do you want to talk, if you don't mind, a little bit about postnatal depression? Yep. Because I don't know that much about it. Well, it's also not my area, especially in terms of professional, but my personal experience was that feeling of defeatism, I think. I just felt like I was meant to be feeling something else and I wasn't and feeling sad

all the time, lonely, I think a lot of the time. And, you know, there's elements of, it was also that point in my life. I was, I was very young when I had Lily, I was 23 when I felt pregnant. And so I was doing something that none of my friends or even my family would, were doing. And I kind of just didn't think it would be as hard as it was. And I, I had, I had unreal expectations. So I think for me post-natal depression was a lot around just that journey into motherhood that was not what I expected. And I have a tendency to be a bit of a perfectionist and that,

as I've found out as a mother, the worst thing you can have, like it is not helpful at all. It's one of those things that I think people sometimes say, oh, I'm a perfectionist. Like, oh, my God, such an awful thing to have an awful thing to have no no it really actually is crap as as a mum because there's just no perfect way to do it and so you constantly feel like you're failing so I've had to do a lot of work professional and and social and it's still happening like I still have to And social. And wine. And chats, yeah. To dig into it. Yeah, there's been a bit of it.

And it's still happening. Like I still have to work on going, okay, so this isn't the way I thought this would play out. And that's okay. So, yeah, I think for me post-traumatic depression, and I see it in a lot of my clients too obviously, so I feel like I'm pretty good at picking up on it and hopefully steering some of the women in my care in the right direction as well. a lot of my clients too, obviously. So I feel like I'm pretty good at picking up on it and

hopefully steering some of the women in my care in the right direction as well. And I, these days I feel a bit like that wiser woman. I love that feeling. I do, I do really like the journey that it's taken me on. And I'm such a different person than I was at the age of 23. And it's absolutely like my passion. I just feel like becoming a mother myself, although, yeah, clearly incredibly hard, it's so life-changing and I felt such deep respect for all the women before me. I just had this whole new perspective on there are these warriors that live among us and walk around us and we just are ignoring them.

Well, like why are they not all wearing medals around their necks? Like why? And I just had this absolute respect and deep gratitude to what women suffer. That sounds awful because it's not. Well, it is a suffering. There is an element of suffering, isn't it? And I wanted to, I guess, having been a physio, I saw that as my way.

I wanted to work with women and I wanted to nurture them as much as I could and hold them up on the pedestal that they deserve to be on. And so, yes, I do have women who I care that I see the look on their face. I see the way they're trying to hold themselves together. It's a common thing in my room that I generally have people cry every day. And my husband's like, did you make anyone cry today? And I'm like, yes, but that's a good thing. Like, it's not a bad thing because I like to think that if I've asked maybe the right

question, then the walls come down. And all the expectations that I write about in that blog about I tried to put on a happy face. I tried to, and you just need someone to say, hey, this is hard, isn't it? And all of a sudden it's like, you know, and the tears start and that's when I'm always running 10, 15 minutes late because it's always those unexpected tears that come. But, you know, it is also just such a lovely space to work with because they're going through so much and becoming a mother, like that whole birth of the mother, like I love that and I love being in that space as they discover who they are as a mum. So I feel like I've really gone off topic there.

No, you've done an amazing job. No, you've done an amazing job. This is definitely not what you asked me. It's beautiful. No, absolutely. It's so wonderful because what I am so interested in because I think our society doesn't talk enough about matriessence, like the idea of it's a rite of passage, like adolescence, becoming a mother. And I know for me, birth was such a shock and so traumatic. Do you want to talk into that space?

What was birth like for you? Yeah, I love talking about birth. So for me, I loved it. I loved birth. I had a very positive experience and I think the range of birth experiences are immense, like there is no normal. And so I do believe there is an element of luck, I guess, in sometimes people's birth experiences and things do sometimes go the right way and sometimes they don't. Obviously being really well educated and informed and then feeling empowered to make decisions in the moment helps that element of control, which is a big thing when women talk about birth trauma. Often what they're actually describing is a loss of control in that moment and that was taken away from them or they just couldn't grasp that feeling of control so that they end up having a traumatic event because things happen too quickly that often for their and their baby's health, but it

is not well explained. Yeah. So what do you think women in terms of education before you get to birth? Because I think I just didn't have some of the right tools as well. And also it's luck too and the way your body is and the way your baby comes in the world, which is also just parenting in general, right? Who you get and how it comes into the, you know, atmosphere, all of the things. What do you think are some things for women that can really set them up for a good, a good birth or as good as we can hope for?

Absolutely. Well, there's no denying that actually having a good relationship and a trusting relationship with your caregiver that is there on the day, there is now evidence supporting the fact that that creates really good birth outcomes. And because essentially you'll be put in a position in birth, which is, you've never experienced it before, whether it's in terms of pain or the physical sensations going on in your body. And you need a lifeline in that moment to look at someone who you know and who you trust and who understands your body and who understands your goals for this moment. And they need to be that person that says, this is okay.

You can get through this. And if you don't know your caregivers when you go into birth, then you don't have the trust. And so you don't, you can't, when they're saying, we're going to do this, we're going to do that. They're like, no, no, you don't understand where I was coming from or what I need. And so there are programs now, and that is being rolled out in many of our systems, whether it's public or private. There are systems out there where they really try to optimize that. So that is, I would say, almost number one. You need that relationship with your caregiver. And then you need to take the time as a couple to really

understand what is physically happening in your body through labor and birth, because it is the fear of the unknown and what we do when we feel panic, like our amygdala takes over and all of a sudden we start, the adrenaline rises and our body shut down and we don't ride with the sensations because they're new. Like they're always going to be new. Yeah, totally. And they're new not just because they'll always be new but also

because we don't live in a society where we attend our friends and our sisters and our aunties and our cousins' births. And I don't necessarily feel like we're going to change that. But that was something that used to happen hundreds of years ago, maybe not even hundreds, maybe only decades ago, where you would really have lived experience of supporting another laboring woman before it was your own experience. So we don't even get that anymore. And the closest thing we often get is what we see on television or sometimes, you know, I know there are a lot of programs out there. I try not to watch many of them. But, you know, they don't, again, necessarily show the real side of what's happening in birth. So I think, and I mean that when I say couples because now

our birth support person often is our partner. And, you know, usually in a heterosexual relationship it will be a man but they feel just as out of their depth, more out of their depth than the women. So it's a huge responsibility supporting a labouring woman. And so the men even often almost more depth than the women. So it's a huge responsibility supporting a labouring woman. And so the men even often almost more so than the women need to do that birth training, that support person role and understanding that they can't fix this, that their loved one is in pain, but the pain is not a negative thing in this environment. Normally pain is. Normally,

oh my gosh, someone's broken their leg or this is bad, we need to fix it, you know, who do we call, what do we do? You've just got to sit in this space and offer support and it's super hard. It's super hard for anyone to watch someone that you love in pain, yeah, but women are incredibly strong. They can put up with an impressive amount. And I guess I'm of the opinion, like in terms of birth and birth options, I'm really, I open the door to everything. And I think that if you are informed about your choices in birth, then you

should feel really happy about making informed choices. So whether it's to take pain relief and when to take it, how to take it so that you can get the best benefit out of it so that then it might wear off in time to be more active through the pushing stage or whatever it may be. So I think having that knowledge and those discussions and then building a team around you for that moment, there is evidence around the fact that that has good birth outcomes. And I think it's really important to note that almost the most important thing about when we're talking about birth trauma is not actually the physical trauma. So women, obviously it is very physically demanding and there can be physical trauma, but most often when women are struggling, it's because of the emotional or the

mental trauma of that loss of control. So women can have an incredibly physically demanding traumatic birth, what we would define as traumatic, but they can come out of it and saying, no, no, I feel good about this. I knew the decisions that were being made. I was a part of the decision and I felt like I was in control. So there is a distinction there and I think we can do more for that emotional and mental trauma because that should never be there, in my opinion. Sometimes physical things have to happen. We have to end up in emergency cesareans sometimes.

You know, sometimes we have to have an episiotomy. Yeah, exactly. These things were there at the forefront to maybe even save lives. Like that's how serious it can get. So that has to be there. There has to be a moment of that. When I say has to, obviously. Yeah.

We'd love it. Yeah. We'd love an understanding that different situations. But what should never be there is a feeling of emotional and mental trauma because of the experience that they've had. So that's a real passion of mine. And I often say to my women or the couples that I'm caring for, that is my goal for you,

that you come out. I don't, whether you took the epidural, whether you needed the emergency cesarean, whether, none of that matters. As long as you come out feeling happy that you were in control, largely in control and part of the decision making, that's going to be the outcome that you need to aim for. Completely. I'm curious, so how do people do that? I know you can have like a private obstetrician or something, for example, but if you don't

go down that route, and I actually went down that route and ended up not being the right person. I think I had midwives who were, one was wonderful, but another one was exactly what you said. The first one I had was very rude to me, I'll say, and quite aggressive. And questions I had, she kind of told me to be quiet. I was humming through my contractions and she told me, you need to stop doing that immediately and that's too noisy and you'll tie yourself out and stop telling us you're having contractions you're giving birth you know all of those things and at 29 none of my friends had done it and that immediately and my husband we'd done birthing classes but it wasn't enough and it wasn't I think at a spiritual

level which I know sounds strange but, but at a deep emotional level, I didn't feel safe, which I think is a huge thing, right? Absolutely, what you just said, yeah. So how do people do that? What would you suggest? There are a lot of programs now, even in the hospitals, where you will get a dedicated midwife. So where you can meet a midwife, form a relationship with her, access to her throughout your entire pregnancy.

Often they'll actually give you their mobile phone and so you can like text and call, you know, if there are questions or concerns. Most of your appointments, if not all of them, will be with this one person. And when you go into labour, you text that person or you call that person and say, I'm in labour and they meet you at the hospital.

So that is a program. Have you by any chance seen the documentary Birth Time? I've heard about it. I haven't been able to watch it because I've been too scared. This is exactly what this is about. Yeah. And it is a good point that being too scared because I cried. It's an emotional journey for anyone. And I think I am reluctant to sometimes recommend it to my women who are pregnant because they do talk about birth trauma. And I think I am reluctant to sometimes recommend it to my women who are pregnant because they do talk about birth trauma. And there are some women who have some stories that are very emotional, but it's all part of that, isn't it? It's like, well, would you rather have some insight and awareness now while you're pregnant, let's say, rather than at the moment

when you are physically and emotionally exhausted and you're trying to breastfeed and all of a sudden you're sleep deprived and everyone wants to come and visit you because they want to see a new baby and then have to deal with the… Yeah, a mental, emotional fallout. Yeah, or kind of like start to figure out that this is something that other women have been through. It's like I know it can be daunting and scary but it also is incredibly

empowering, well, that documentary, but also just having that understanding about what we are capable of and just the force that awakens when you give birth. I can't describe it in any other way. That felt like something out of Star Wars. Is that what they say in Star Wars? You are coming home to Ireland. We love Star Wars here.

Oh, do you? Totally. I completely, yep, totally get that though, right? That's what I meant by a spiritual level we're tapping in. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So you need, yeah, that feeling of safety. And so when you are safe, your body does things. There are hormonal changes that occur when your body can relax.

When you are unsafe, in fact, I should almost say that, when you're feeling unsafe, your body changes and it will lock up. It's like that fight, flight, flight, flight, freeze. Correct. Nailed it. Yeah, exactly. If you get into a situation where all of a sudden in birth you feel unsafe, it's going to impede your labour.

It's really going to have a negative impact. And so even just knowing that, going, okay, I'm now starting to feel my panic rising. What are my tools to lower this? And it's stuff like we talk about, like go into a dark room. I always think about, do you know how cats give birth? Yes. Do you know how they go? They go off somewhere quiet where it's dark, often at night time, they take themselves away, they're quite reclusive and then like there's a litter of kittens. Yes.

We're a little bit like that. Like sometimes, you know, birth needs to be in a dark, quiet, nurturing to your soul. Things like bathrooms are actually really good because you can turn on the hot water and create that sort of steamy, warm environment. And they're generally small spaces. So that is a really, like I often say to my couples, like if you're in the hospital, if you're in the birthing suite, you know, that big room, and often they're like, don't even shut the door. There's just a

curtain out to the, and you can kind of hear the people at the nurse's station and sometimes people coming in and out of the room. And it's like, that's not, might not be conducive. Maybe it is. Maybe some women are able to really block that out and work on their breathing and their vocalizing and their movement. But a lot of women just go, no, no, I need to feel safer. So go into the bathroom, turn on the hot water, take your ball in, close the door, just you

and your partner and your midwife if you've got that relationship. I think it needs to be a midwife. I feel like obstetricians are amazing, amazing humans. They work incredibly hard and they are incredibly knowledgeable, but they don't sit with you for hours and hours through your labour. It's not, it's actually not their job. It's not their role. So that's great, but you need to also have if your partner

and honestly whose partner is equipped to do that? Not at all. It's such a huge ask and these partners, whether guys or girls, like amazing, amazing, amazing to even put their hand up to do that role. Sometimes I don't think they do. I think they just go like, well, I have to. Yeah, exactly.

Looks like it's going to be me. Exactly. I have a story about a friend whose partner was with her in the birthing suite and the nurse handed him a warm towel to give to her and he mopped his own face in it. Fair play. He's like, I'm working hard. He was like, oh, thank you so much.

No, exactly. I'm working hard. He was like, oh, thank you so much. No, no. No, no. For your wife who's like in the throes of labour. That's right though. Like they do need support. It's a huge thing to understand. It totally is. And it's, you know, men come out of birth with birth trauma too.

So you talk about like obviously they're not physically, there's no physical trauma for them, but they can come out feeling incredibly rattled by that experience. So, yeah, I do think for whatever reason you don't find yourself in a system where that is an option, then I would highly encourage you to find that option. So whether it's hiring a private doula or talking with some of the midwifery groups that are private in the community that do

like parallel models so that you'll, you know, you can still birth in a hospital but you will have the support of a midwife that you're also talking with and that gets clearance to also be with you at home and then transitioning into the hospital as well. And I would highly recommend women to look into it because we know that it gives the best birth outcomes. And be educated.

And I run a workshop and I do really believe that that face-to-face kind of ability to come somewhere and be together as a group. And we talk about one of my favorite slides in our workshop is, I just wish you didn't have to be here. I'm really glad you're here, but I wish you didn't have to be here because this is the second best thing that we can do other than you having actually been a part of the birth prior to your own birth. So it would be so great if we didn't have to educate ourselves

when we're actually pregnant but rather it was a part of our culture that, oh, yeah, you know, Nancy up the street is going to give birth later this week and when the time comes, we're all going to go around and be in her house and, you know, like. That's a lot. Obviously. I just knock on the door. Hi, Nancy.

The kids said we all need to be here. I've got our mother's group. I bought some wine. Not the wine. Yeah, good job, Nancy. We'll all watch you but I do know what you mean though like like if we had it if we that sounds awful

but I do know what you mean though. It's that loss of this women's culture of support and love and, yeah, that wise woman that you were talking about. You know, I mean I think some of us are lucky enough to have mums who do have those conversations. But even when you do, sometimes the relationship between you and your mum is different and you won't, she will have given birth 30 years ago, 40 years ago, you know, as opposed to in this environment now.

Yeah. You know? Yeah. I feel like, again, this is the echo chamber that I live in. I'm like I feel like we're getting back to that. But I'm sure, I'm not sure if that's everyone's experience or if everyone feels like that. But I definitely feel like there is more talk about this idea of, you know,

community and women's circles. Yeah, totally. I think we're pretty good post, well, are we? Maybe not. No, I was going to say postpartum. Women are naturally excellent communicators and collaborators of community. So they are really good at getting out and finding their community, their network, their mother's group, whatever it might be, and chatting and talking.

And we're pretty good at finding and making friends, especially once kids are around, because there are those opportunities, you know, whether it is mother's group or music classes or dance classes or sporting groups. And, you know, whether it is mother's group or music classes or dance classes or sporting groups and, you know, primary school is great too. But, yeah, those early, very vulnerable weeks and days, it's very hard to find that. If you don't have friends around you and you are sort of the first of your social group or family, then, yeah, you're really,

you're really battling to find that support, I think, is the word. Yeah, completely because we're not used to it. I spoke about this with a mutual friend of ours, Flick, this idea of community care and the idea that we need to build that habit, that we're not doing this in isolated houses, that people come in and see you're messy. They see you sleep deprived. They see you sleep deprived. They see, you know, dishes in the sink.

They don't have to see your perfect house for you to have them over. You want them to be in and out of your life in a way, which I think happens naturally when you have kids at primary school and you start to do school drop-offs together or, like, share the childcare around. But, yeah, in those early days of motherhood, having an idea that your friends can be there and you can be no bright in your pyjamas with a, you know, dressing gown on,

and that's okay. Yeah, absolutely. That honesty and authenticity of like, I am in the hardest part of my life. Yeah. I don't have time for wiping down benches or having a shower. Like, yeah. And it's, it's very, it's very vulnerable and you get it when you've done it, but when none of your friends have, they don't get it. And that, unfortunately it's, it's the truth. So like in my situation, when I, when I had my first, it was only really my mother's group that, that I could do that with because no one else really got it. They were still expecting me to, you know, put on some high heels and come out to a gig. You had 23, yeah. Yeah. So, but my mother's group, we're still friends now

and they were my lifeline. We caught up more than once a week and it was just like, they were my go-to people. Yeah. To have that shared experience. And I think there's something magic that happens when women come together when you've been through that kind of experience. It is a bit like veterans, I feel. Yes. Because childbirth can be a bit like a mother who can be a bit like going to war. Yes. Like covered in blood and guts and God knows what else.

And, you know, the physicality of it. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. But doesn't it still blow your mind that half the population have done it? Yes. Like I still have that feeling of like, yeah, and then our histories are like women who've had like seven kids or something and I'm like, whoa.

Heroes. Totally. And, yeah, I just, we're sort of going into a different topic now, but like the idea of like caregiver, I had this theory that the caregiver is the primary worker in your family and the person who goes out to earn money, they're the secondary worker. Like, because the main job is the one that's happening at home. Like that is the, that is the big job. And then everyone else is just supporting that person. But that's not often how it's seen.

It's often the opposite. It's that you're our primary earner so I have to support you to make the family financially stable. And it's very important, don't get me wrong, like absolutely, especially right now, like, you know, we need to be financially safe and so that role is huge but I do think that the role of or the the value to given to that person who is not earning money but is actually the the glue that binds and that's raising the next generation like it's it is it is the

primary role it is the main job of the family and um and people need to rally around that person because now my kids are older, I don't feel that as much. I mean, don't get me wrong. Actually, maybe I need to take that back. Don't tell me you get so it doesn't get easier, Kim. Look, the physical stuff is easier. The physical time, like there's no sleep deprivation. There's no physical like holding a baby all day, like breastfeeding,

even like kind of cleaning, like my house isn't as messy as it was when the kids were young. But there is definitely struggles in terms of managing more teenager problems and, you know, the social connections, emotions that go along with this journey that I'm on with my kids now. But I also feel that's a little easier to share because it's stuff that can be like, okay, we'll talk about that in two hours when your dad's home and we can have a discussion.

It is easier to share then those early years when it's like, no, no, I have to do it now because it needs to be done now. Like they've just vomited or they've just done a punami or they've just. Yeah, and they can't tell me how they feel. So I have to guess what's going on for my baby. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I think that's the difference in that. Yeah. It's so difficult if you're not physically there, you can't really share the job. Whereas at this point when kids are older, there is a little bit more like, okay, we'll talk about that later. Yeah. When there's, when I've had a chance to figure out what I want to say about that.

Which I think is such great advice, isn't it? It's like, thank you for your question. I will answer that at a later time after I've had a stiff whiskey and figured out how I feel about, I don't know, death or something or whatever it is and why we're here. Totally. Which is a joy, I think. And, yeah, that whole land of teenagers is a land I haven't landed in yet,

so I'm so interested to see how that goes. I'm conscious that I've got an expert at this table, particularly about physical issues for women. So I wanted to ask you about some common problems that you treat in your room in general for women. Yep. So pelvic floor physio, we do quite a, it's a surprising range of different conditions. So I'll go through the lifespan.

We actually do continence for children. So kids that have got daytime wetting, whether it's wetting or soiling, and then also things like bed wetting. And that's such a beautiful space to work in because these poor kids are like, it's so tricky if they're like not getting the messages in time to get to the toilet or all of a sudden they realise, oh, my gosh, I've lost control of my bowels and all my friends. You know, it's a really, again, I feel like continence is such a vulnerable space.

It's just everyone that I see seems it seems in that moment of like, yeah, we just want to wrap them in cotton wool and go, it's going to be okay. So we've got that sort of side of what we do. And then we deal a lot with pelvic pain. So we've got a lot of women who suffer with things like endometriosis and pelvic pain in terms of dyspareunia, which is painful sex. So difficulty achieving penetration, enjoying sex. Often, you know, if it's painful, there are muscles involved that are contributing to that. So we've got pre-typical partum years and that can be a lot of what we see. Then we look after women throughout their pregnancy, so pre and post. And through that, anything that comes up in terms of

pelvic floor conditions like weakness, or if they're having any leaking, you know, sneezing, coughing, laughing, that sort of thing, or not being able to get to the toilet on time, urgency and frequency around using their bladder and bowel. And then we deal with pelvic organ prolapse. So vaginal prolapse, the bladder, the uterus, the bowel. And the stats are really, again, it's one of those things where you kind of look around and go, oh, my gosh, how many women are actually dealing with this behind, you know, we're like, is it ducks that, like, look really peaceful on top of it?

They're, like, just managing so much under the surface. Oh, I feel that. You know, prolapse affects actually one in two women. What? Yeah, in their lifetime, yeah. What? 50% of women. Really? Is that more the end of it, like later stage? Yes, it is. Yeah. So there are sort of big triggers that can

predispose you to prolapse. So childbirth, you know, being pregnant, childbirth, and then menopause is another real time when the hormones are changing significantly. So we can see a higher proportion of women present around those times. But I definitely have looked after women who have never had babies and still have a prolapse. And then same with continence. Again, the stats are staggering. It's one in three women, often urinary incontinence. And that one's more specific to after having a baby. And it's not just vaginal deliveries. It can be cesareans as well, that stat. So it's really high.

And, again, it's just people don't talk about it. Like it's not something that comes up naturally. Oh, you know. I've just weaned myself again. Yeah. Or, oh, yeah, I've got a bulge out of my vagina that bothers me. Like it's just. And as it should be like, I'm okay with like privacy, but you know, it's also so common. And so many women

come and say, oh my gosh, like there's something wrong with me. I'm like, well, actually it's, this is 50% of women. So you're not alone and it's not unusual. It's not normal, but it, you know, it's common and we can do things about it what can we do about it because that's something that strikes me I know so many women even in my own head that make jokes about it like okay haha on the track can't go on the trampoline anymore can't go to aerobics of course not now I've had kids or just even friends who don't have kids like you yeah yeah so you're saying it's not normal. So there are actually things that will fix it? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So there is what we call, when we're talking about evidence, A-grade evidence, which means it's been peer reviewed

and had large, high quality, like randomized controlled trials testing its effectiveness. So A-grade evidence that pelvic floor training is in many cases curative and makes a huge difference to particularly stress incontinence. Is that your kegels, like the kegel exercises? Yeah, kegels. Yeah. In America, they call them kegels. I think the guy who's first sort of pioneered them. Yeah. So pelvic floor exercise is exactly right. However, I really think it's important to note that in fact, and I do feel like this is happening more and more in the clients I'm seeing, it's not just about strengthening your pelvic floor. So very commonly women have got what we call an overactive pelvic floor. So their muscles are really rigid and tight.

And that means that they're not then going to be responsive and dynamic when we need them. So that sudden impact, like a sneeze or a jump, I like to refer to your pelvic floor like a trampoline. So if you want to get that really good recoil, that nice high bounce or that height when you're jumping on a trampoline, you need to go down first. You need to elongate or stretch the trampoline so that you can get that recoil and that spring, which gives you that height. And the pelvic floor is the same. If you don't let go of your pelvic floor, if there's no ability for the pelvic floor muscle to elongate and stretch, then it also has no recoil. So women who have got overactive,

tense, tight, fatigued, sore pelvic floor muscles also struggle with incontinence and things like prolapse because their muscles not responding well functionally. It's not dynamically turning on and supporting them when they need it. Right. So it's very kind of dangerous is a strong word, but it's not the right information to say, just let's do your pelvic floor exercises, just tighten, tighten, tighten. And I don't have stats on this, but this is simply anecdotally from my clinic. I would say almost 50% of the women I treat actually have an overactive pelvic floor and that's why they're leaking. And so what we're really doing is teaching them how to use their pelvic floor appropriately. So I veer away from saying we're doing pelvic floor strengthening, but rather I say we're doing

pelvic floor rehab because half the time I'm actually saying, okay, I actually need you to learn how to let this muscle go because you're walking around with it like on all the time and so therefore when… That kind of atrophies almost? Atrophies when something gets weaker and thinner and smaller. We're such a terrible stat but we are all atrophying. We're all slowly terrible stat, but we are all atrophy. We're all slowly atrophy.

Kim Peel, we're all slowly atrophy. Actually, I feel that deep in my voice. No, no. The great news about that is you can reverse the effects of age-related atrophy by exercising. So we absolutely know that if you use your muscles, you won't, and you can still build and grow your muscles. But if you do nothing, then yes, actually the hard facts are from about the age of 21, you get weaker. It's awful, isn't it? It is, it's so awful. Impressing stat. I know. But you can fight for it. So if you fight for, or no, if you exercise and if you keep your muscles supple and healthy, then actually they can do really well and absolutely strengthen. And I've got some lovely stories of women in the 80s and

90s who have come for pelvic floor physio and had excellent results. And it's just so heartwarming, these women who, you know, thought that they weren't going to get anything out of it. The number of times people come in and say, I don't know why I'm here. I don't know what you're going to be able to teach me or, you know, and I'm like, we can always do something. It's so, it's so rewarding, those, those clients. So yes, you never, it's never too late, but it's not necessarily all just about tightening, tightening. Yeah. It's really have that release and relax as well. What is a prolapse? Yeah, great question. So it is a descent of one of the pelvic organs. So pelvic organ prolapse will be the bladder, the uterus, the cervix or the bowel, and one of those organs descending and dropping down into the vaginal

space and in some severe cases actually protruding out of the vagina. So look, we have prolapses that can occur sort of all throughout the body. So you can get a disc prolapse in your back. And everyone's kind of familiar with the idea of like a disc that prolapses. And obviously it causes intense pain and muscle spasm. A prolapse is essentially just a weakening of a structure, a weakening and a descent or a protrusion of a structure. And in the case of pelvic organ, yes, it's a protrusion out of the vagina.

So, you know, it comes as symptoms depending on which organ has prolapsed. So if it's the bladder that's prolapsed, sometimes we can see incomplete emptying of the bladder and that could lead to like recurrent urinary tract infections and leaking, unwanted leaking, because as you stand after being on the toilet, unwanted leaking, because as you stand after being on the toilet, then all of a sudden you get a bit extra wee that comes out and things like that. The bowel, it can be incomplete emptying of your back passage and pain sometimes and straining. And so, yeah, it sort of comes with its specific issues depending on what's prolapsed. And there are various ways of managing it. So if it's a minor prolapse and sort of the entry level management, it is things like modifying things

that are making it worse. So if someone is constipated and they're sitting on the toilet every day straining, that's absolutely going to be pushing a prolapse down and out. So we modify that and make sure that they learn how to sit on the toilet correctly, make sure that they create nice, soft stools so that they're not having to strain. People that lift heavy weights all the time and aren't using their muscles appropriately when they lift those weights. So I'm a big fan of lifting weights, bone density, your muscle mass, mental health. So I like to say it's not that weight's bad, but it's just the way that you're lifting it that could be better. So maybe we can just modify that so that there's not so much force going through this part of your body and rather you're taking all that weight through your glutes

and your legs and your core and even like your lats and like, you know, that you can really strengthen other parts so that you don't just transfer load where it's not going to be healthy, which is through the pelvic floor. So yeah, we basically with a fine-tooth comb go through like, okay, how are you living your life basically? Like what else is going on? What stresses are you putting on your body? And we modify them at the same time as rehabbing the pelvic floor so that they can use their pelvic floor really functionally and in a protective way as well. Something I'd love to talk about though is the postpartum recovery. So, so often I get women complain about, oh, that baby. And this could be like a menopausal woman, for instance,

who, you know, had babies 30 years ago and she's like, oh yeah, it was that third baby, the big head. And after that, you know. It's never been the same. Yeah. And look, it's hard to go back in time and actually find out maybe that was the case, but maybe it was also that when she had three babies, she didn't come home and rest and she didn't give her body the time to actually do what bodies do do after giving birth and they repair. So if you are able to rest appropriately after giving birth and allow your body to recoil. So organs, everything stretches. Like when you give birth, like your tummy, like your tummy stretches, your uterus stretches, your pelvic floor stretches, the vaginal tissue stretch, but they are all really well equipped to actually recoil back if given the right circumstances or the right

environment. And so if you don't rest, if you don't give your tissues that unloaded time, and being unloaded genuinely means like lying down. So even just simply standing on your feet to prepare food, standing on your feet to rock your baby to sleep, this is load that's going through those tissues that has just been stretched so much beyond other things that ever stretch in your body. So these tissues need that like so much respect. And the way you give them respect is by lying down, not loading up the tissues, not lifting anything heavier than the weight of your newborn respect is by lying down, not loading up the tissues, not lifting anything heavier than the weight of your newborn baby.

And yes, just not spending time upright. And, you know, other things like avoiding constipation and trying not to get sick, you know, a chronic cough in the weeks after giving birth can be all sorts of terrible things for your pelvic floor, unfortunately. So, you know, just there are things that we can do to prevent it. And I do feel like that is the biggest contributor to those prolapses that I see in young mums is that they just got back up too early and tried to get back up and do things too early. There was, again, it's back to the expectations. Maybe there was an expectation that they bounced back and they got their body back, that they were able to run again or compete in a fun run or look good at a wedding or I don't know,

like there are these expectations and they are those little, those little things, whether it's like, oh, I was able to get into that outfit to go to that, my friend's wedding or I ran a marathon, they get forgotten. No one remembers that. No one, no one cares. We think that they do, but they don't. And the first person that you need to respect is yourself. You need to put your foot down and go, no, that's not going to be in my best interest, even though it might be tempting or look good for a social media post. It is not going to do you good in the long run. And those things, unfortunately, are harder to fix

and last a lot longer than the peak of you at the wedding or you doing the run or finishing the fun run or whatever it is. Yeah, all the post and pre or photos, you know, like that kind of culture of, yeah, our body will just go back to the way it was and if it doesn't, what's wrong with you? Yeah. It's so damaging. Yeah, it's so good to teach women that, yeah,

women will be like, my body's different. Like my, something looks different. It didn't used to be like this. And sometimes it is the case that, yeah, this is different, but isn't it better? Like, isn't it, isn't it, isn't it amazing that your body did this and look at your baby and look at what you achieved and the fact that there's a bit of you know tissue on your tummy that does sit a little bit differently or maybe the labia doesn't you know sit exactly like it used to this is a sign of achievement this This is you. You're not meant to be the same person. We don't want to be the same.

We don't want to look 15 for the rest of our lives. Like we don't want to act 15 for the rest of our lives. So why, you know, why can't we celebrate the maturing and the achievements of our body that, you know, have literally created life and brought it out into the world and, yeah. And we do it to ourselves because our partners love us and they are so appreciative of everything that our body does. I just think we need to really like a person who loves you, they're not putting that on you. It's absolutely you putting it on yourself.

And I know that that can be really difficult for people to get their head around, but it's a really important thing to to get your head around that it's like I'm gonna look different and I'm gonna be really okay with that because I'm making a choice to move forward in the person that I am and become a mum yeah I just think that and again we've gotten to that matrescence that idea of like of like there are changes happening that are just so amazing and need to be supported and celebrated. And so when it comes to the emotional changes, the neuro changes, I want, I just, my mission is to really inform women and like really let them accept and be empowered by what's

going on rather than feeling disempowered. Like they're less than they were before. They are so much more and they're growing and growing is hard. Like as in, you know, the learning pit. Have you talked about the learning pit with your son? No. So the learning pit is this thing. When you learn something new, you fall down into a pit and it's really hard. It's hard work. You've got to like kind of work your way out of it and you have to climb up the other side and you have to learn all these new skills to get you up the other side. And you generally feel a bit yucky about the whole thing. But then as you pull yourself and you've worked out how to get out the other side, then there's this achievement and

feeling of accomplishment, you know. So basically the idea is that, yeah, when you learn something new, it's hard. You fall into a pit and you feel. Miserable. Yeah, it reminds me so much of that quote about growth looks a lot like falling apart, like a seed in order to grow a tree has to actually split open and fall apart. Beautiful. And that's, I always love that idea because I think it speaks to what you're talking about. That's what happens to a mother.

Yeah. Yeah, they literally fall apart but out of it like a massive, big, sturdy tree, beautiful tree forms. Isn't that beautiful? Oh, it's so beautiful. Yeah. But you have to accept that it's not going to happen overnight. I don't think it's taken me years and years to get to

that point where I start, have started to feel more like the tree, less like the seed that's on like, you know, being crunched on the ground. Just like no light or air. You know, it just takes a lot. I think it takes a lot of time. And I think maybe in our culture, like we were discussing off pod, there's so much rushing and like everything has to be immediate. We need to be immediately up out of bed. We need to be immediately perfect at this thing that we've never done before. And maybe it's internal pressure and it's also external pressure. The idea of what women should be versus what we actually are, you know? Yeah. Because this concept of needing to bounce back is also connected into staying

perpetually youthful and young, right? Which is so dangerous. Yeah. And that's right. You're right. So celebrating growth. And in fact, what naturally has to happen with that is sometimes aging or changing in physical form is not celebrated. And we come back to the wise woman. It's like these women that like, you know, that have done this before and that have so much to impart, like we need to listen to them and we need to hold avenues in their honour. Yes. Oh, my gosh. You are so great.

Yeah, and there is a wealth of wisdom out there but maybe we don't quite have it right. We're listening to the wrong people. Our news feeds are full of young, perky, perfect women, and they need to be full of like. Women in, yeah, who've been through matriessence, who've been through menopause, who can talk about it. So much more to learn from those women.

Right. Yeah, they're coming into their power at that point. I don't know if you saw this beautiful Australian story on Kathy Lett. It just came out recently. She's an incredible – I think she must be in her 60s now. She's a writer. She wrote Puberty Blues, which is a really cool book. But she wrote about this exact thing that there's this kind of third act

in a woman's life where everything comes together and she's through menopause. And so she's got a burst of a bit more testosterone, a bit more things going on, more energy, she's not caring for people anymore in the same way. And she can do things for herself and it's this thing to look forward to. Oh, isn't that a lovely way? Yeah. And it's so true that that conversation or the conversation around menopause is so often not like that. And so it's so true that that conversation or the conversation around menopause is so often not like that. And so it's this, oh, menopause. The change. Yeah, yeah, and these negative things that occur.

But I have heard that about that surge of energy and power that you can experience and, yeah, and that real feeling of like I am going to live for me now. Like this is my time. Exactly. I'd love to have you back on to ask you more about menopause because that's a whole topic in and of itself that I think is just not talked about. Do you want to talk?

I know I haven't actually specifically asked you about womankind and I think I should ask you about your business and your company because you're the director of this incredible space for women. Do you want to talk to us about why you started? Well, I guess we've already talked about why you started, but what it is and just talk about womankind. Yeah. And yeah, you're right. Like when I had my first daughter, yeah, I went through that, that change. I, I like, I sort sort of touched on I did actually have a really empowered birth and I felt the force awaken. Let's go back to our Star Wars analogy. I did.

I had this energy of like I love this space and I want to, I had so much respect for women. I wanted to help them experience to some degree what I'd experienced and acknowledging the challenges that I'd gone through too. So I just felt full of energy to create something and I wrote a lot. I wrote a lot of blogs. I was just really, really passionate and it was fantastic. Womankind, I've always loved that, right, that word.

I guess it's a word, womankind. So that idea of us as a as a tribe as a as a kind of people and obviously the sort of feminist connotation of the fact that we always talk of as humans as mankind um and I just really loved loved that word and so yeah I had this this passion to just just have this space and hold hold space for women and provide them with that feeling of empowerment around their physical. And although we're physiotherapists and we're definitely based on the physical aspect of women, there's no doubt there's a lot of crossover in terms of that emotional support

and providing a safe space for women to become mothers, whether it's through pregnancy or putting them and their partner through their labor and education around that or the postpartum time. And yes, so it's, it's just an incredible space to work in. And I do feel very lucky and like I touched on before that breadth of what we see as well. So I feel I do get to sort of see women across the lifespan and really benefit from them as well. So I really enjoy learning about what works for women, what they've been through, what they've worked on and tried and then providing that support from a pelvic floor point of view. It's fascinating.

Women really love the opportunity to come in and talk about what's going on in their pelvis because often people say, oh, I never get to talk about this. Like no one ever asks me questions about, you know, these sorts of things. And I'm like, yeah, well, it's really good. And, you know, that sexual dysfunction that we get to talk about and support women through, it's often people don't, sometimes they do, sometimes they get referred for that. But, you know, it's part of our assessment to talk about their sexual history because obviously that's huge in terms of pelvic floor. And so respectfully open the door to that conversation and some women get right into it and they're like, oh my gosh,

I didn't know I could talk about this. And is this a thing? And am I able to ask about this? And hold on, I've got this. You know, they'll come back and they'll have another question for you the following week. And it's like this opportunity to really be like, yeah, people are like, I didn't know you existed. So it is a lovely space because I feel like where that secret, that secret's part of womanhood and personhood where you get to actually talk about these really personal things that people, and I think maybe the culture's shifting, but I'm sure 30 years ago was just a no-go zone. You don't talk about poo and

pelvic floor and sex life and in that way, it's amazing. Yeah. And coming at it from a preventative point of view as well. So sometimes there's nothing wrong where people don't have pain or they don't have dysfunction, but we can talk about, okay, well, we can make this better by doing A, B and C. And actually, you know what, you're sanding, like you're doing some of these things, but maybe we could adjust the way you're, you know, and I'm not just talking about sex here, but like lots of things, like whether it's exercise or caring for the children or postural things. But also I guess changing positions in sex and things like that, does that actually make a difference? Yeah. yeah, that's part of it. Yeah, often it comes down to like pelvic floor.

So commonly women don't understand how to control their pelvic floor muscles and how their brain connects to the pelvic floor. So if we're talking about, you know, pain and pelvic pain or pain with sex, when you get pain down in your vagina, it's a bit scary because people go, oh, hold on, there must be something wrong. And what happens is you tense up and you try to avoid it. Yeah. People are often very pleasantly surprised to know that, no,

these are muscles and everyone's familiar with muscular pain. Like we're not overly scared of it. We're like, oh, no, that muscle's pulled up a bit tight and sore. I just need to stretch it or massage it. And actually knowing how to relax, it's going to help. So once we kind of get around that, it's like these are the muscles are what's like kind of closing this off and preventing penetration or making penetration painful. And these are your muscles. These is how you can control them. And in the moment when you're anticipating pain, you're going to want to tense because your brain's pretty clever. It's like, no, no, no,

I've done this before and this hurts and I'm not, you know, so it'll tense up and you have to like kind of override that. It's a bit similar to labor in that way because you're experiencing pain and natural response is to tense and tighten and prevent the pain. But you have to almost sort of, you sort of have to override that and go, no, no, I understand why this pain is here and I'm not afraid of it and I'm going to release and relax. And in fact, that will give me less pain. And that's the way we move out of that pain, that negative cycle is, again, it's through education and informing and then empowering in that moment to control to control the situation

and control in this case the pelvic floor muscles so that they don't tense and lock up and create dysfunction which is so fantastic because that's really what your philosophy is at womankind isn't it it's about respect inform and empower yeah so that's what you're doing you're respecting and holding that space for women and then giving the giving information that then what you're doing. You're respecting and holding that space for women and then giving information that then gives you power to move forward. And so much of us and our lives, and I know for me going into pregnancy and birth, I had a mum who knew a lot and I still felt completely at sea. And I tried to read things and, you know, look at things,

but the more information we can gather, right, the better. Yeah. Isn't it always the case? Yeah. And particularly in women's health, do you feel like there's a reason why there seems to be like a weird lack of education for women in general? Yeah. Maybe it's because potentially like there is a bit of shame around like sex and like understanding your vagina and shame around sort of masturbation or pleasure. So I wonder whether it's coming from a place of a little bit

of that religious background. I think sometimes when that happens that can be really challenging for women to move out of that space and understand that this is not something that's forbidden. Or shameful. Shameful. Yeah, or isn't something. Guilt involved in enjoying your body and being able to control it

or proud of what it can achieve. So I think, you know, and probably as women we grow up, a negative relationship with our body, you know, we're angry at how it looks. We're annoyed at what it does and, you know, and I think it just comes down to that real body respect. Yeah, and awe and wondering what women can do. Yes. Yeah.

Yeah, that's right. Yeah, and when you start teaching that not just to women, it's important to know, I should say girls, because in fact that has to happen in a really young age. Have you seen the vagina monologues? You know what? I've always heard about them. I've read one piece from them I think. I've never actually been to see an event.

An event of it, yeah. But you explain. Yeah, yeah. It's awesome. We'll have to go. I'll have to keep an eye on it. I'll take you next time. Okay.

There's a performance in Melbourne. I'd love that. So it's different women talking about their vaginas. It's literally like if the vagina could talk almost. No, it's vagina stories. It's different experiences. And there's a woman in the U.S. I think it was in the U.S.

She interviewed a whole lot of women about their vaginas and she put together this book and it's a play and it's meant to be performed. So it's incredibly empowering and it's not really, some of the stories are about sex, but a lot of them are just about their vaginas and you come out going, wow, like these things are amazing, like, and need that awe. So when you said that awe of what your body can achieve, and I've always thought, I don't know, maybe I don't need to do this, but wouldn't it be amazing to put together like a performance of the vagina monologues that went around to schools and, you know, and left and men and women, well, boys and girls. Like it's really important that boys have that awe around vaginas as well and they need to be like this is to be respected.

This is a special place. Yes. And I'm sure they think it's a special place in some ways but not always in others. It's so, so true. And I agree, it's so much to be respected like that idea that like a pussy the word i hate that word but anyway as an insult is so wrong in that way because it's so much stronger than a penis in so many ways right because look what it can do it can

stretch it can i don't know and give birth give give life and do all the things and be so much fun at the same time and just so amazing. And I know as well what I've loved online, there's been some real celebrations of what vaginas look like, right? Like actually getting photos of different women's vulvas and vaginas because it does makes a difference because there is a kind of trend because of pornography to kind of smooth it all over, right, and make it look perfect. Whereas Labia all looks completely different. Yeah.

Right? Yes, exactly. And, well, there is a good resource that's free called the Labia Libraries. And, yeah, they have got women who have volunteered, obviously, anonymously and, you know, all the rest of it to, yeah, to have a library of labias and you can go on and have a look at the range of normal, of what labias look like and vulvas look like and, you know,

the famous vagina wall at MoMA. Yeah. Yeah, so, you know, those sorts of things are out there and are really good and do go some way into countering what I guess the porn industry is doing. Unfortunately, it's probably not quite as accessible and appealing or you have to know about it to actually go there. But, yeah. Yeah, there is an Instagram account called Volvo Casting,

which I follow, and it's a woman who actually does castings of women's vulvas. You sound really intense. But it's also amazing. She just puts them on Instagram. And so you just see all the different, and they're amazing. They're like works of art, I think. Yeah.

Just because they're all so different and unique. Because I have read just statistically that there is a rise in very young, younger women, at least being very conscious of what their vulva looks like and comparing it and thinking it's not normal. And it goes into what you were saying, right? That actually our bodies are not Barbie dolls. They're unique and different. And the more that we can celebrate and see women's bodies looking actually as they look, the more we can feel empowered. And I'm hopeful that young women can understand that, that what you're seeing is actually the normal. What's in the magazines in the porn industry is abnormal.

That's not what everyone looks like. Yeah, and I guess I worry about the boys in that regard because what we know is that the boys are more likely to access porn than women. And then that sets an expectation for them. Obviously it would be great to not have that there at all, but if women are confident and empowered by how they look, then that's a teaching moment in that moment if they have a partner

who's like, oh, hold on, this isn't what I expected. They're like, you know what? This is normal and this is great. So, you know, and what you expected isn't what I'm aiming for, buddy. Yeah, correct, Zoeva. Take it away, man. I know, wouldn't that be great? So I guess, you know, and wouldn't that be awesome if our young girls had that kind of philosophy

and feeling? And I hope they will and they do. Like I hope that they just go, no, no, I don't care what you've seen. This is what I am and this is good and I'm going to be, you know. Yeah. So I guess it's, yeah. And then we need to work on the fact that, yeah, porn is not normal and not an okay thing to form the basis of what? Of sex education.

Yeah. Yeah, and I'm conscious we're running out of time because I have so many things I'm going to have to ask you back on. This is so interesting. I guess because you are a mum of two girls, how do you approach that now with them, with education around this stuff? Is it quite complicated?

I don't know. What's your approach as a parent? Yeah, I look probably not complicated because I've always been really open with them and we've always had really honest discussions about, you know, I guess from a young age it was that. And then they did ask, you know, I guess from a young age it was that. And then they did ask, you know, how babies made. And so I remember I got out my Moore's Anatomy textbook. I think my daughter was about, I don't know, I think she was maybe five or six. And I just showed her the

uterus. I showed her where the vagina, you know, this is the vagina that connects to the uterus. And what happens is the penis goes in the vagina and, you know, then we get the semen that connects and that's the seed and the egg and then they grow in the baby. And so she drew a picture of a man and woman having sex. I've still got the picture on the back of an envelope. And she thought that you'd do it at the doctor's because that's where you go to have your baby at the hospital. So she was like, so you must do this.

This is clearly a medical procedure. Very clinical. Of course. Exactly. So we then had that conversation about, no, and then we didn't talk much more about the other side of it, the fun side of it. Yeah.

But, yeah, so essentially it was like it was a conversation and yes it did happen but it wasn't like I had to have the talk because they you've been sort of talking about it yeah since they were small yeah I thought it's like a series of small conversations rather than one big one where you reveal oh yeah the bees or something yeah definitely and then know, things like period health. So we've talked about that a lot and they understand why they get their period, you know, so that they can have a baby one day and things like that. And there's this lovely workshop that I've been able to do with both of them, which is all about, you know, how amazing the woman's body is,

how little sprig. It's called Celebration Day for Girls and they do get run across Australia and I think even internationally and it's absolutely beautiful. It's a mother and daughter workshop that just really, again, informs and empowers them about their bodies and what they can achieve. And yeah, so I think that naturally feeds into body awareness and respect and then even kind of that literacy around relationships going forward, you know, and things like that. So yeah, clearly they're still very young, but there is an element of, I don't, yeah, I think the conversation has been happening and ongoing. Yeah, I hope. It sounds like you're doing an amazing job,

but I think that's it, right? It's that not being afraid of information, not being afraid to being empowered by it and the more sort of direct and straight talking we can be about it. I think sometimes we feel like with kids we should dance around the truth or something. Yeah. And they much more appreciate you just being direct about it and matter of fact, you know, rather than doing weird analogies or talking about a stalk or something.

And it's the same with periods. Like I've had to really, with my kids, I'm very open about it and I have a lot of like baggage around it and I just have to be like, no, big girl pants on. This is normal. This is fine. Yep, you're in the bathroom. Cool, we're here.

Yes, this is a tampon, you know, like cool, excellent. This is a pad. Yep. This is totally normal and fine. You know, because of the culture we've come from. Yeah. Yeah. But it does make it so much different. So a little thing I learned doing the celebration day for girls, and I know this seems so obvious and I was like, why didn't I know this? You know, keeping a box in the toilet or the bathroom where you keep some pads and tampons, even from this age. And so it's not like this is shameful. This is something that mum hides away that no one else sees. It's like, no, no, this is here. And in fact, it's here for anyone who needs it because, you know, once a month, every woman, and then we might, you know, sometimes our friends come over and, And so it just immediately starts that conversation about what are these?

Oh, well, when a woman gets her period, we need something that captures the blood, so that's a pad. And they're here for everyone. I use them every month, but, you know, sometimes my sister comes over and she's going to need them too. Oh, I love that. Yeah, and then even your son will grow up. And I've heard of stories like,

you know, when they move out and have their own house, they're like, oh, no, this is where I put the pads for when my friends come over. You know, it's just like that, like this is not shameful. This is fact. This is good. Part of it. Yeah, it's a sign that your body is healthy and doing all the right things, getting ready for one day when you're ready to actually grow a baby. Amazing, huh? That makes me want to cry. I know.

I love that because it is, it's what you, going back to what you said about caring for women through birth as well. It's a, it should be a natural part of it all. Yeah. It's not separate. It's not shameful. It's not here you go, now you're pregnant, here's some information. It's like a part of us all, you know, and our culture. And I thank you so much for being such an advocate for women and for just moving the conversation. I know in our community there's so many women that come to see you and it makes so much difference.

Oh, that's lovely. Thank you. Well, thank you for having me. I do love talking about it and I hope I stayed on track. Oh, you were brilliant. Oh my goodness. There's so much. There's so many other things I want to ask you about, about bedwetting with kids and menopause too. So, and how those physical changes. So if you're, if you have time, I'd love you to come back. Oh, absolutely. Pleasure. All right. Well, thank you so much, Kim. Thanks for having me. Oh, where can people find you?

Oh, okay. So we have a clinic in Eltham and we also have a clinic in Yarrabat. So womankindphysiotherapy.com. We're online and yeah. Because you run, do you still run online exercise classes or are you doing them on site? No, we have an online library now. So, yeah, we run our classes but we don't do them live

and that's really accessible for everyone. We found it was actually quite well received through COVID and then mums were like, actually, this is super convenient because it was really hard to get my baby out the door or whatever. So we do have an online library of exercise-based pre- and postnatal classes. Excellent. Thank you so much.

I did them. They were wonderful. That was so great. All right. Thanks for coming on. Thanks, Claire. You've been listening to a podcast with me, Claire Tonte, and this week with the incredible Kim Veal.

Isn't she wonderful? For more from Kim, you can head to womankindphysiotherapy.com where you can access her library of classes as well as lots of tips and book an appointment with her if you are in the area. If you want more from me, this podcast comes out every Friday and I have interviews with lots of different women and people from all walks of life. And I also have a show called Suggestible that comes out every Thursday with my husband, James Clement, where we review lots of things and give you recommendations for what to watch, read and listen to and solve that age old problem, what to watch on telly once you put the kids to

bed. So that's every Thursday. Tons comes out every Friday. As always, thank you to Roar Collings for editing this week's episode and also to the wonderful Maisie for running our social media at TonsPod and at SuggestiblePod. For more from me, you can go to at Claire Tonti on Instagram. That's where I like to tell stories on my social media of choice. Or you can go to my website, ClaireTonti.com. And you can also email the show, tonspod at gmail.com if you have suggestions for guests or any questions. And if you wouldn't mind leaving

a rating and a review, that would absolutely be wonderful in Spotify or Apple podcasts. And share this with a friend. If you have someone in your life, especially in this episode, who is about to give birth or is planning a family or is the partner of someone who is about to give birth, this episode, I think, is full of wisdom bombs. And I wish that I had listened to something like this before I gave birth to my son. Okay. Go gently. Look after yourselves. Go make a cuppa. Go for a walk. Take some deep breaths. Onwards. Love to you all. Talk to you soon.

Bye.