TONTS. - Working 9 to 5 with Maria Angelico

Episode Date: August 3, 2021

Let me take you back to 80s feminism with my guest today Maria Angelico. You might recognise Maria from her lead role in the hit show Sisters (now on Netflix) or from the gripping drama Stateless on the ABC. We are going to talk about her favourite movie 9 to 5 with the dream team Dolly Parton, Lily Tomlin and Jane Fonda. But before we get there you won’t believe Maria’s own story. I wanted to start with the story of her mum who was an 80s feminist and who sadly passed away when Maria was 21. She was diagnosed with cancer and within a year Maria and her sisters were left to figure out the world without her there. Luckily it seems she was such a force of nature in her sky high heels and leather pants (even when she was helping out at the school tuckshop) that she still inspires her girls now. Maria tells the incredible story of how her role in Sisters came to be and her meeting with the indomitable TV producer Imogen Banks who is also behind some of our best loved female led Australian shows including Offspring, Paper Giants, The Beautiful Lie and Puberty Blues. We also talk through tall poppy syndrome and our own neurosis and fears that can get in the way of finding our feet and stepping into our power.For more from Maria Angelico you can find her in Sisters on Netflix or on Instagram @mariagloriagraceangelicoSubscribe here for – tontsnewsletterYou can find me on instagram @clairetonti or at www.clairetonti.comYou can email me with suggestions for episode topics and guests to [e-mail]. Feel free to leave me a voice memo to be included in the show.Show credits include:Jane Fonda and Lily Tomlin in conversation for TED talks hosted by Pat Mitchell. The three discuss longevity, feminism, the differences between male and female friendship and what it means to live well.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSercnrqeN4Vanity Fair interview with Dolly Parton on her career and writing the hit song 9 to 5https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jOGcVLGFvgOriginal audio taken from the 1980 film 9 to 5 produced by Jane Fonda, written by Patricia Resnick and Colin HigginsA big thank you to this wonderful team:Editing - RAWCollingsTheme Music - Avocado JunkieGraphic Design - Emma HackettPhotography - Anna RobinsonStyling - Hilary Holmes Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

All right, now let's just sit down. Look, I got a gun out there in my purse. And up to now, I've been forgiving and forgetting because of the way I was brought up. But I'll tell you one thing. If you ever say another word about me or make another indecent proposal, I'm going to get that gun of mine. And I'm going to change you from a rooster to a hen with one shot. Don't think I can do it.

Let me take you back to 80s feminism with my guest today, Maria Angelico. We're going to talk about her favourite movie, 9 to 5, with the dream team that is Dolly Parton, Lily Tomlin and Jane Fonda. But before we get there, you won't believe Maria's own story. I wanted to start with the story of her mum, who was an 80s feminist and who sadly passed away when Maria was 21. She was diagnosed with cancer and within a year, Maria and her sisters were left to figure out the world without her there. Luckily, it seems she was such a force of nature in her sky-high heels and leather pants that she still inspires her girls now. Just after losing her mum, Maria found her way to acting school, where she was able to work

through some of her grief and ultimately find acting, her talent and herself. This led Maria to a very magic meeting with destiny. Maria wrote, produced and starred in a small web series called Movement. And in a turn of fate, the indomitable Imogen Banks saw it. Now, Imogen is behind some of our most loved Australian female-led shows, including Offspring, The Beautiful Lie, Paper Giants and Puberty Blues. In Imogen's shows, the lead character's inner monologue often feels so familiar and for me, like Nina in Offspring, reflects the way my inner voice works, kind of like a running commentary of a football match, except it's not football, it's my fears and neuroses instead. Being cast

as the lead in a show created by Imogen Banks is kind of like winning the acting lottery for women in Australia. And well, I bet you can guess what happens next. When Imogen saw movement, she immediately started working on the hit TV show Sisters, which is now on Netflix, with Maria Angelico in mind as the lead. And I completely get why. Watching her on screen is like seeing someone who deals with the same crap you do and who feels like a person you want to have brunch with and nitpick all your flaws while also deep diving into your latest reality TV obsession and your problematic relationship with feminism. So you'd recognise Maria from Sisters, but also from other shows like Stateless on the ABC. She's a brilliant actor. Also, turns out,

a really great person. We talked over Zoom while we were in lockdown, and though we had a few tech issues, I couldn could not share our episode. I hope you love it as much as I did. I wanted to start with Maria talking more about her wonderful mum, who, like Dolly Parton, and really like I think all of us, was a feminist, but also full of contradictions. Here she is, Maria. I think even without my mum's views on feminism, it just felt like a very, not saying feminism is who needs a man, but there was an element where it was just women can do anything. And, yeah, so I think there was definitely just that element

and my mum, she did everything. So it was definitely just how I grew up and I didn't even know otherwise, really. But then on top of that, my mother was very, she had some pretty strong views, even though they were quite contrasting. She was, I guess I'd say like a Dolly Parton kind of feminist. She was all about equality and really, you know, unity with women and strength in numbers. And also she was a, you know, a survivor of quite an abusive relationship. So she'd had her reasons as well to be quite passionate about a lot of women's issues. Not saying that you have to go through hell to have reasons to be

passionate about feminism. She was really passionate in that way. But then on the flip side, she was, I guess, contradicting. She was a product of the 80s. And I think she was very that kind of lipstick powerful. I remember her doing canteen duty in like stilettos and leather pants and like she'd have a crazy perm. And, you know, she was very glamorous, my mother. So I think it contradicted other ideas of feminism that I heard in the media and that I think around the time when I was little in the nineties, definitely feminists didn't look like my mother. And it was confusing. I think there was a lot more stigma around that word and around being, yeah, a strong

woman. So I was definitely raised in a way that I knew women was strong and and we could really fend for ourselves and equality was really important but there was kind of this 80s sexy revenge kind of filter over the feminism so I don't know if that makes any sense but it was stop me if I'm ranting too much but a lot of the movies and the media that we were raised on was like so um my mum's favorite movie was this Bollywood film she loved Bollywood films but it was this film about this woman who her husband fed her to crocodiles and she survived and got all this wild plastic surgery and became a glamorous model and

like got revenge and it is similar with I mean there's a lot of those kind of movies where I just I think to be a powerful woman I thought you had to be a really um sexy and cool and glamorous and vengeful yeah it was like a kind of a little bit man hating, which I was like, that's, so I don't know if that's, that's not, that's not a feminist. So I think that I had a, it was a bit confusing growing up and look, I'm still figuring it out. But aren't we all figuring it out? Yeah. I wanted to ask you what home was like for you as a kid day to day. Look, it was, it was a really creative household. My mother passed away when I was 21,

so that's why I'm talking about her in past tense, just to clarify. But I'm so sorry that she passed away. Did she pass away suddenly? Yeah, yeah, she had cancer and it was just quite a quick, just over a year of her diagnosis. It's crappy. It's a shitty thing that, you know, you don't wish upon anybody. But me and my sisters very much live with her very present

in our lives, which is really nice. We're all quite close. We all live in Melbourne. Yes. Yeah, my dad passed away about five years ago and I know it's, you feel lucky for the time that you had with them and sometimes it's great and then it can hit you in different moments all of a sudden and you're right back to where you were, you know.

Were you studying acting when she was alive? No, I was 21 when she passed away. Also, I'm so sorry about your father. That's awful. Oh, thanks. Awful. Thank you. No, I'd been working as an actor very casually.

Like I got my first TV job when I was 13 and I'd done a few jobs throughout high school but I never took it seriously. I was too busy trying to be cool and all of that stuff. And yeah, it was actually after my mum died that I realised life's short and I kind of, it was a bit of a kick up the butt. So that's when I studied. I studied a pretty, I had enrolled while she was dying and started studying months after she passed away. And I think in a way it kind of saved me. I mean, I did a lot of crying in drama school, but I think that's what drama school is kind of for.

So in a way it was quite cathartic and it was really good having, like, something to channel all of my raw emotion into. And it was just good having structure and, yeah, all of that. So, I mean yeah it yeah it kind of helped me process a lot of stuff as well yeah so I studied right after she passed away wow is that 16th straight is that where you did your your acting or where did you study yeah that was where I did the most of my training and yeah I've also done some studying overseas and but that was I did it was a two-year course part-time.

Right. And it was the very first, I think it was their first or second year, so they were a very new school and I think it's a different school now that I've graduated, I'm sure. It's evolved, but it was pretty cool. Like they were doing lots of, I think they were trying out lots of different things. So, yeah, it was quite exciting.

Yeah. I saw a video with you talking about your experience there and how you were working out yourself and your emotion during that time. And I love what you said about you decided to take yourself seriously. Why do you think that, I feel like sometimes women don't take ourselves as seriously at first, particularly in creative fields. Yeah, that's a good question. I think there's an element of diminishing our own power or keeping it light. Like even, you know, that classic thing of sending the email and then you read it before you send it and you put in like, I just wanted to ask you,

or rather than just asking the question and all of that fluff that we do to kind of dilute our power. And I guess it's to be liked because of that belief that, you know, that we have to be likable. That's more important than being good at what you do. So I think there's definitely, you know, an element of that, and particularly with being an actor and a performer and the whole trope of the female character needing

to be likeable is more important than anything. So I think there's that and also the self-deprecation, I think. Yeah, I think it is that it's the lackability, but also just not wanting to intimidate people, which is just such a silly fear to have because you can't control how people react to you. But yeah, growing up, I definitely, I, you know, I'm not an amazing genius, but, you know, I was intelligent and funny. And, I mean, I hope I still am. But, you know.

No, you absolutely are. And creative and, yeah. Yeah. Like I took a lot of, I think, in a naive way, just the way we were raised, my mother was very much quite eccentric, just the way she saw the world and behaved. And so I think just as a byproduct of that I grew up like that you know I didn't think of I would dress however I wanted I would

my music taste all of those things and then I quickly learned in school I think it definitely would have been that that can be intimidating to kind of do your own thing rather than do what everyone else is doing. And so it was in my nature to do that still, but I kind of was at war with myself a bit. And so the way that I thought I'd get around with not fitting in fully was if I make myself a bit of a joke around it. Like I kind of laugh at my differences rather than conforming. I'll still not conform, but I'll, I'll kind of make myself a clown in that way. I don't know. I've always loved clowns. I'm really digressing. Sorry, but I do. I've always really, I did. No, you know what?

I've always identified with a clown. It's the curly hair and all that stuff. See, I'm freaked out by clowns. I can't, no, I can't do it. I'm terrified of clowns. But I do see, I completely relate to you, Maria, in that way. I remember that and I still do it now. And I think as you get older, it becomes more difficult not to, I mean, you kind of want to unpick that in yourself, but it's difficult, particularly when you're younger. And I guess, I don't know, I'm still trying to figure out in your thirties who you are and standing in your own self. But I know as a teenager doing that, I'm learning, remembering, kind of realizing I'm going to make fun of myself before anyone else

can. Exactly. Because I'm different and I'm loud and I have opinions and people don't like that. And so the best way to do that is to be funny, to make fun of yourself, and then it's like you're less intimidating or something. But what that actually does is diminish you. You know? Exactly. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, that's exactly it. And it's that, that kind of that punching first or, or, or making the joke first before someone else does. And also the assumption that people might not be comfortable, as comfortable as you, or they might be offended. And so just that constantly, like making sure're okay like I'm not I'm not trying to be better than you I'm just like I'm just little old me or you know this kind of where it's we're all just individual people just doing our thing we're just trying to bloody figure it out we're just trying to figure and I think I always saw and I and maybe there still is a bit of that but there's like a woman that takes herself seriously. There must be such a, she must feel so safe to be able to do that.

And I think growing up it didn't feel safe to take myself seriously. I had to have all these other kind of weird defence mechanisms to kind of buoy me, if that makes sense. No, it makes complete sense. I think you do have to fall back on all these other tropes to kind of cover it or something until you feel. I love that what you said about feeling safe in it because that's it, right?

If you feel safe with people, because I naturally, and I think you are the same, someone that laughs a lot at everything all the time, and I love being like that. But I know that's one of my defence mechanisms. Like I do it because I want people to feel happy and it's something I've just done since I was a kid and a little part of me does it because I, yeah, I don't know if I'm comfortable taking myself completely seriously

or something. I don't know. It's such a weird. Yeah, well, there's a vulnerability in that as well. I think there's a real vulnerability in being sincere. Like I think with sincerity if you're like I really just like that person or I really just want to do this regardless of what anyone else thinks or does, yeah,

there's a real vulnerability there because it might not be what everyone else wants to do. It might not be the cool thing. It might be whatever. So if you can just make fun of something first, it's kind of like, I'm above that. Oh, I know that. I know that's silly.

Just in case other people think it's silly. Yeah. I'm not articulating it. Maybe I need more coffee. But there's definitely, yeah, I think there's such vulnerability in being sincere about something and I think it always really scared me because it's cool to be like laugh at something and make it into a joke or be nonchalant about it or apathetic.

Like that's so much safer because you've got all these defenses. Yeah, totally. Oh, completely. And I wonder if it's also in our Australian culture, particularly that that's something too, you know, that tall poppy syndrome, have you experienced that in the acting industry or just in your work? Yeah, look, it's a, I mean, I feel like it's so many actors talk about it often. I think the biggest wake-up call with all of that was spending time in America because tall poppy syndrome does not exist there. It is not a thing and I didn't realise how deep-seated it was in me and my environment growing up until I was in an environment

where no one was self-deprecating or tearing anyone down. And I remember the first time I went to America, I think I was like a cab driver, you know, someone, random person asking me what I did. And I said, I was an actor. And they're like, oh, that's great. That's really cool. And just was really excited about it. And it was the first time I realized in Australia, every time I told people that I felt embarrassed because people would, you know, question and be like, oh, well, what else do you do? Or really, what have you been on Neighbors? Have you been on Home and Away? And this kind of like instant attack, this kind of tearing you down thing.

And yeah, it was the first time I experienced in America that it really, it made me so excited. I felt so just accepted for who I was. Yeah. And it's something that the first time I spent time in America, I really loved. I mean, the country is definitely problematic in all its ways, but that element really had a big impact on me. and I've tried to keep a promise to myself to remain that part of myself in Australia, the American Maria that feels, yeah, keep that part of me, that confident part of me alive. But, yeah, it's such a big thing with artists but just everyone. No one's, if someone's confident here, they're a wanker. Arrogant.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And in other places, like, I mean, America have, and I understand that's why people think they're obnoxious often, because they're not apologetic. But I think there's a really fine balance where you can be not apologetic and be confident and not be a jerk. And I strive for that.

Yeah. Not to be a jerk. Not to be a jerk. That's what I'm aiming for. So I've watched Movement, which is incredible, your web series that I know led to other things. Can you explain Movement to people who don't know what that is? Thanks, Claire. That's so nice. Movement is a web series that I wrote and produced and started in,

I think, seven years ago we made it. It's about a young woman who's pretty much a heightened version of myself, who is figuring out life through dance therapy. So each episode focuses on a different part of herself that she's trying to better, whether it's being open and honest or embracing her sexuality or saying no, or each episode has a different focus. And yeah, it's very, in each episode the character my character kind of takes it to the extreme and and finds balance within it yeah it was shot very uh we made it on a shoestring you know me and friends and um even my housemates being extras and all of that um but it was it really wonderful, fun experience. It was great.

It was something that I wrote never expecting it to be made. It was more of an exercise that was inspired by a friend of mine that was already writing and making films and he just encouraged me to. And then I started writing mainly just so I could, he had a really great swimming pool at the time and he said I couldn't swim in his pool until I was writing stuff. But then once I started writing, I fell in love with it. And so it became a real passion project. So that's what movement is. And we ended up, we shot it all on a, yeah, on a micro budget with friends, but then we got some screen straight support to finish it. And that really helped make it into something that wasn't complete trash. And yeah,

and then it ended up going to Tribeca Film Festival and it screened in New York and it was one of those really kind of pinch yourself moments. Yeah. Yeah. Completely. It's so funny and so well-timed and vulnerable, I think, which is what you talked about before. And I always think if you lead with that vulnerability, you're going to strike a chord because people just can relate to it. They see themselves in it. I saw myself in it. What did it lead to once it was shown in New York? For a while, nothing. I just came back home and I was touring a play and it was out there, but I, you know, I was kind of like, well, what happens next? We don't know.

And so we were all distracted doing other things. We, I mean, my, my friend who produced it and my friend who directed it. And about a year later, the TV producer, Imogen Banks from Tangle, Offspring, Puberty Blues, every good Australian show, she reached out because she'd seen the web series and she wanted to have coffee. And I didn't really know who she was, which is terrible. So I Googled her just before we had coffee and I was like, oh shit, I should have been more profound profound I just thought she in my head I thought I think she'd mentioned she heard of me through Screen Australia so I thought she was from Screen Australia I didn't read my email properly anyway we had a

coffee and a chat and it was lovely but I didn't really know what it was all about and nothing really came of it never heard from her again and thought, oh, I must have just been really weird, the coffee. And then a few months later, it turns out they'd been writing a TV show with me in mind, which was The Series Sisters, which is now on Netflix, which, yeah, really changed my career. It was mind blowing. And this was all happening without me really knowing. She'd seen the show and they'd just been writing this.

She'd seen Movement and then her and her team were writing a show with me in mind, which is really cool. And I still auditioned for it and I was really nervous. But, yeah, it was great. It was awesome. And after that, yeah yeah my career's just gonna keep going yeah oh it's so exciting I mean it's such a great show as well what goes through your head before you do an audition like that like what's your relationship with inner critic

that particular audition I I was aware they I think because I had backstory, I knew she'd watched the show. I knew that they had me in mind. So there was, it felt more like I just have to show them that I can do these lines and a bit of that. So I felt more confident in a way, but then I'd put a lot of pressure on myself also. But usually with auditions, yeah, my agent said I have some sort of Teflon on me where I guess I've built it up to survive where I just can't take the knockbacks personally. And I think that's where it can be really hard as actors

because you're constantly going out for jobs, but that's the thrill of it because next week I could be shooting something in Queensland. I mean, hopefully. I want to get out of lockdown. But it's like you don't really. But I love to get out of lockdown, but it's like, you don't really, but it's, it's, I love the not knowing of what's coming next. And, you know, I could be, I could get an email today with a really wonderful script to audition for. And so I love the thrill

of it, but in terms of preparing, I just focus on the role and the character in the story because I know the times where I focus on what I look like or or this person oh I'd love to work with this person because they made this show and I've got to impress them and I'm sure they want someone younger for this and all of that stuff I don't enjoy it and I end up doing a crappy job anyway so I try and just think about the character and enjoy it for myself because, yeah, you never know. And if you enjoy a scene, usually it's better than if you're kind of suffering through it. So I definitely do that. And also I've been lucky enough to be in the room for other people auditioning where I've read four auditions and you see I've seen people you know throughout a day read the same scene over and over and over and I learned that no matter the choices you make you're you and you're always going to do something

uniquely you so just do that and I think that's been really helpful and also I've done auditions and not gotten parts and then, you know, months later gotten a part off the back of that audition, if that makes sense. So you're just constantly putting yourself out there. But I'm okay with it. Like it's a lot of work sometimes. You're reading lots of different scripts and I find myself,

well, this is my excuse for watching a lot of reality TV because I'm like, I'm in stories all day and reading scripts, you know, so it's okay that I just want to watch a bit of trash. That's what I say to my boyfriend when he judges me. Yeah. Yeah. Isn't it interesting just how much there's that contradiction at play all the time with, because I mean, so much of reality TV is so anti-feminist and so not about stories that you would actually want to be living through or that you believe in. And yet also it's so bloody good. Like I just find that really hard to walk that line sometimes, you know,

that big contradiction. I do too, Claire. It's a real, I have to check myself sometimes. And look, I know there's certain shows when it gets, like I love the melodrama and just the otherworldliness of some of that stuff. But, yeah, there's definitely been seasons of Real Housewives, for example, where I'm like, this is purely entertainment out of other people's suffering. And I, yeah, I can't, I can't enjoy the fact like those times on lots of reality shows where you're watching it and someone's really in pain for whatever reason.

And the camera cameras keep rolling. I just think about the camera person. I'm like, put the camera down and hug them. Like I think when I'm starting to think about the crew that are there watching it happen, it makes me feel quite sick. So I usually stick to, I don't even know, this is definitely not a genre, but I'm going to call it like uplifting reality where it's like, you know, like wholesome. Yeah, where it's, you know, inspirational to an extent

or it's people reaching for their dreams. Like I love more recent seasons of Drag Race even where there's so much like unity and it's so uplifting and it's beautiful and it's less of that kind of catty, bitchy stuff because I do think that does, it must have such an impact, that catty, bitchy kind of stuff that we watch. Like maths I can't watch anymore. I love it when it's artistry so whether it's like

MasterChef or Drag Race or I don't know I used to love Australian Idol I do not care I don't totally know right and I don't care about a sob story I'm not really interested in like the catty bitch fighting or what oh that's not even a very good feminist term. But, you know, like the backstabbing, all of that stuff. Yeah. No, I love like, yeah, I got really into the glass blowing show. Competitive glass blowing. And I was like, this is so beautiful. I've been blowing glass for years and finally getting the recognition.

And it's like I love that. That's the reality I want to watch and I I can tell when I'm not in a good place when I'm watching the other kind of reality it's it's not it's just not it's it's I don't think it's good for anyone yeah and yes you're right we're just a ball of contradictions I think actually and on that where is your relationship with body image and the beauty stuff? Because I'm imagining that that's a really kind of minefield in acting. Yeah, I mean, it's so definitely in my world, but I think just being a woman now, like with social media, just being anyone, honestly, not a woman, any person with social media

that's in the world world I think there's just so much pressure so I think growing up I was a bit of a tomboy in some ways but I think again it was more like a safety thing I I think it was that whole like be one of the boys kind of thing to protect yourself a little bit but I don't even know if tomboy is the term that I want to use anymore. It's really, yeah, it's not right. But I think I just, I would shy away from being, embracing my feminine body. And, you know, I still find myself wanting to wear loose fitting clothes. And I think that was definitely to do with the world I grew up in, but also I think some, I'm sure inherited trauma from my family of origin. Absolutely. Just women are preyed upon.

So you've got to protect yourself. And rather than going down the eighties glamorous, protecting myself, strong woman route, I went into more of a a I'll just wear baggy clothes and like skateboard kind of route um so I think it wasn't until my 20s that I really felt comfortable to just feel comfortable in my body or show a bit more of my figure in a way and I think it's funny because now I look back on photos of myself and I'm like you're so beautiful like you're gorgeous why did you think you were like you know like and I just yeah and it just makes you think about everyone else in their own little hell there you know we all have these ideas of our bodies that are just yeah our bodies are so amazing and I'm very privileged and lucky to have you know a

functioning healthy body that I can dance in and do lots of things in and I and I think that's something that I just try and focus on on gratitude with my body and not so much on how it looks from the outside I think it gets easier as you get older. But, yeah, in terms of being an actress, I mean, yeah, I have, yeah, it's a bit of a contrast again. There's part of me that intellectually is like I am woman, hear me roar, I want to be that woman on TV that people watch and don't feel isolated by. For example, like with Sex and the City that you

mentioned earlier, like I loved watching that show when I was younger. And there was, there was part of me that they all had these bodies that are subscribed to one type of beauty, this kind of skinny, these bodies that were like very toned, even though you never really saw them working out as much as a body like that would and all of that stuff and so I watched those shows but there's still part of me that kind of felt a bit shitty afterwards and I don't think I could ever about myself or my body and I couldn't figure that out and it wasn't until I watched things like like like girls where I saw Leonard Dunham's body and I was so moved by just seeing like a not, a body of a different type

and not that one type of body on screen. And, yeah, she definitely, there was tones of self-deprecation and all of that in the show. But I think we're seeing more and more of different women's bodies in different ways. And so that's kind of how I coach myself, you know, But I think we're seeing more and more of different women's bodies in different ways. And so that's kind of how I coach myself, you know, when I've had to do scenes in underwear or sex scenes or things where I'm quite, or even just wearing tight-fitting costumes

on a show where I'm not fully comfortable in. I remind myself that I want to be a body that's just a normal body that will make someone feel okay about the body they're in rather than pining and longing for the body that is on screen. And I think it comes down to that thing of women competing rather than women uniting, if that makes sense. Like, I think there's a lot of like, we, this kind of waiting to be picked by men or you know or and so we're competing with each other constantly rather than yeah just uniting and going out there ourselves and this is a terrible analogy no it makes total sense no yeah yeah so I do that and I'm just like I want to be a body that people feel good watching.

And even saying that, I'm like I have like a pretty textbook like good body. Like it's not like, you know, in terms of like the stupid standards that we live by. But like I have like a, you know, whatever. So it's that. But then I do find myself still like before a shoot if I'm in my underwear or whatever I'll find myself thinking about what I'm eating or look in the mirror longer than I usually would and it's it's so ingrained so I'm it's it's a real back and forth and I still struggle with it and the biggest thing that helps me is when I watch footage of myself I pretend

that I'm watching someone I don't know and I'm so kind to that person that's such great advice because I do I think we've internalized so much about what women's bodies should look like by what we see on screen and I mean in nine to 9 to 5, right, like I worship those three women, Lily Tomlin, Dolly Parton, Jane Fonda. I mean, they're incredible actors and incredible in this film and so inspirational and yet they're all tiny. They're all, you know, very conventionally quote unquote attractive and in a certain, you know, and very slim

and I think it's that, yeah, I still don't know where quote-unquote attractive and in a certain, you know, and very slim. And I think it's that, yeah, I still don't know where, and I've talked to feminists and people from, thinkers from all different walks of life, and it doesn't matter how old you are, we are still kind of in that constant battle about it, you know? Absolutely. And when there is a woman on TV or a body, anybody on TV that has not that conventional like hot bod that we're like still seeing, you know,

used to seeing, it's like there's kind of a point of it. It's like she's being loved despite her body or she's like, like I adore, I adore Shrill. Like that show, have you watched Shrill? Yes. Yes. Like it's a great show. And I think it's wonderful.

But there's still an element where there's a lot of the story is about her and her body. And I'm just, maybe I'm just impatient, but I'm like, I just want to have shows where there's just like no commentary. The way that a character looks is not important. Be secondary. Yeah. Obviously how they dress and present in the world,

that's to do with their character. But the things that are out of our control, like our bodies or our features or, you know, the things that we're born with, if we just, yeah, I'd love it to just be a non-issue, but we're not there yet. No way. At all. But look, with absolute reason.

And look, I think things are getting better with casting and there's so much more diversity on our screens. But, yeah, it is frustrating and it's difficult, but I just want to keep championing that in every way that I can. Because, yeah, it strikes me as boring to see the same bodies on the same types of women and traditionally, especially on mainstream Australian TV, white women with the same types of hair with the same types of features and that idea that to get to look like that you spend your whole life

in the gym studying every item of things that you eat like and and obviously if that's a way you want to be in the world also I'm not taking that away from women and saying or men no I'm saying you know or any person that you shouldn't do that that's not if that away from women and saying or men no I'm saying you know or any person that you shouldn't do that that's not if that's what gives you joy and makes you feel good about yourself that's not what it is it's just that I'm just bored of the idea that women's value is that you know I just don't think we need to spend our whole lives doing that and like doing bicep curls and figuring out how to do great push-ups you know I think we have so much more to give and how much more art and leadership and stuff can get out there and get made there's only so many hours in a day if we're spending half of

it thinking about what we eat and how much we exercise we're never going to get equal pay you know that isn't no but I 100% agree the energy and the time spent counting calories and all of that junk and also the money spent on the maintenance. And, look, I'm a sucker. Whatever makes you feel good. I know I love self-soothing with ridiculously unnecessary face creams and shit and masks. I love doing that and that makes me feel good,

so I'm going to do that forever. But when it's something that there's not a choice in the matter, it is, yeah, it's ridiculous. It's even just scheduling. When you get to set, there's the call sheet, which is like your schedule for the day. And it's like what time every actor comes in, when the crew's set up.

It's kind of a breakdown of everything that happens in the day in great detail. And the women always come in earlier because they spend an hour or two in the make-up chair and the men come in much later because they're just kind of given a once over and they're on your go. And I understand that it's just, yeah, it's so like, it's so systemic. It's been going on for so long. It's, it's, it's hard to kind of get out of that, but it is just, yeah, it's, it's beyond.

It's a lot of time. It's a lot of time. It's a lot of time and a lot of sacrifice and a lot of effort just put into things that it is important, but it's not as important as the story you're telling or whatever you're doing or trying to achieve or what else you can offer that seems to get in the way. Yeah. I often think about, I think about like for instance Julia Gillard when she was prime minister or Julia Bishop has talked about this too how long

they've sat in the makeup chair before while they're you know trying to lead a country but they're sitting in this chair getting their hair and makeup done and that's just so much wasted time yeah you know and not wasted time because obviously we want to value ourselves and if that makes you feel good great as well but as a leader you've only got so many hours in a day and that's two hours a day that men aren't spending. Well, that's the thing. That's the thing. I'm like, I'm getting up. I'm like, I'm in the chair at 6am. I want to get in at nine. I want to have more sleep. And yeah, just particularly it's changing changing more but then also i'm very lucky to have worked with quite a lot of female directors that kind of intercepting a lot of that but just like

scenes like waking up in the morning if your character's waking up in the morning don't put makeup on me like because i hate watching a tv show and someone wakes up with like hot tongued hair and like lip gloss on. I'm like, that's not real. Like, and, and it, but it is this, this, like we're so used to that. Yeah. It's, it's, it's ridiculous. So I think we just need to, it's, it's ridiculous waste of time, but also I think it has such a massive impact, like seeing all female politicians, like you were talking about, always looking so manicured in that way. It just sets this subconscious kind of rule that we all, yeah, to be taken seriously, you have to look really put together. And, you know,

and it's interesting because I'm someone that has what curly hair and I'm not, I love wearing makeup. I love dressing up, but I am not I love wearing makeup I love dressing up but I am really comfortable wearing no makeup and not dressing up and posting an unfiltered photo on my social media or whatever but I feel like because of that I do find myself being categorized in the like she's an everyday woman she's like she's always uh she's she's really frazzled she's a hot mess she's trying to get her life together and it's like i just have curly hair that's not neat that doesn't mean that my life isn't together like i can have messy hair and and be on top of my shit like i or maybe i can play a character you can make my hair neat like I this whole um it's it's interesting how your

how you present or your image has such an impact on um as a woman on how people um expect you to behave or or see you contributing to the world it's interesting but particularly I guess it's more under a magnifying glass as an actor. Yeah, it's very interesting. It is. It just struck me. I finished watching Misrepresented, which is Annabelle Crabb's show. It looks so good. Yeah, it's so good.

And it really struck me in that moment where you're seeing all the male politicians all in their suits and no one's making a judgment call on their character by how they present because they all look the same. And for women, whatever we present, curly hair, straight hair, you know, whatever type of body we have is some kind of indication of our character and what we can do in the world and how useful we are, how whatever, you know, there's kind of a layer of judgment before we walk in the room

and do the thing and wouldn't it be great and like maybe the male politicians need to step up and start showing their personalities you know like it's not that everyone should dress the same you know but like why is it that it's okay for men not to put any work in and for us too you know I remember once a couple years ago we were flicking through the TV and the brown lows were on. I mean, my boyfriend was watching it and we just got the giggles. Like we lost at laughing so much, but it was kind of heartbreaking. We're like, imagine, just imagine if all the women were just wearing a black dress, the same black dress and all the men were competing to get attention with like feathers in their hair and all these wild outfits. And everyone was interviewing them on the, on the red carpet, kind of just like chatting to the women about their day

and then asking the men about their outfits. And just were like laughing. Cause we were like, in a way it would just make the men seem so silly or flippant and then we're like, whoa, what is that all about? Like it's just this kind of that performing kind of peacocky ornamentation that we do as women are expected to do constantly to kind of perform in a way is also considered frivolous and or it kind of attracts a lack of respect as well in a way. Like you looking at that, it's almost like an overcompensating because we've got nothing to offer, which is absolute bullshit. But there's kind of that belief as well. I don't know if I'm being clear, but like, yeah, looking, imagining the men like that, you would kind of instantly, it kind of makes the men seem sillier.

And I'm like, why is that? Like, it just made me realize that there's this whole other element. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I would love to see that. Completely. Yeah, totally. Right. Because I think as well for men, there's an underlying message there too, that they might need to be the same. Like they need to be a particular type cast, right? Like tall and bulky and muscly or something. And this is all very, you know, gendered and very kind of macrosterotypes. And I think we're starting to break this down now. Very binary. Yeah, it's totally binary. But I do think that wouldn't it be great if more from

a mainstream cultural perspective on our screens in australia especially that you know men were allowed on the ground low all the footballers were you know asked to wear whatever like incredible outfit they could to show off whatever and be completely out there and women could be too or vice versa however you want to present but this idea that they all should just wear one's type of suit is so boring and sad for men who want to dress up and love clothes and you know yeah and have a personality to and hopefully you know we've got har Harry Styles and people who are starting to break that kind of stuff down and drag race as an example. Yeah, huge.

But I do think there's a long way to go. Yeah, it's definitely changing. It's definitely changing and it's wonderful. But, yeah, we definitely have a very long way to go with it. Totally. Speaking of like I want to change track a bit now. So speaking of a long way to go i watched nine to five again last night actually for the first time i'd never seen it

never seen it i know so just for people who haven't watched it i'll do a little summary so it's a 1980 american comedy film directed by colin higgins who wrote the screenplay with patricia resnick and it stars jane fonda, Lily Tomlin and Dolly Parton as three working women who live out their fantasies of getting even with and overthrowing the company's autocratic, sexist, egotistical, lying, hypocritical bigot boss, played by Dabney Coleman. And I think what's really interesting is that it started as a drama by Patricia and then was kind of brought into the comedy sphere. I think Jane Fonda really championed it and said it should actually be a broader comedy.

One of the other things I really loved about it, and I found out it was the second highest grossing film of 1980. It grossed over $103.9 million as well, and it's the 20th highest grossing comedy film ever really and when you think it was made then what yeah i know crazy what did it mean to you kind of what i touched on earlier was i was definitely raised feminist but it was a little bit confusing because there was a lot of revenge throughout that, which I don't think is actually very feminist. But this was my favourite movie.

I think because I'm one of three sisters, we would definitely play 9 to 5. It was a great, like, movie to play pretends of. I was always Judy Burnley, Jane Fonda. So there was that element. But I think I just loved, I grew up watching a lot of, I love comedy. I'm a big comedy fan. You know, a lot of sitcom comedy. And most of that was the men were the funny people and the women were kind of the witnesses to them being funny or the, you know, just terribly underwritten female characters. And it was the first time that I watched something on TV

or a movie that was the women were funny. Like they were carrying the comedy of the film. So I think that was my biggest thing that had the biggest impact on me because I love comedy and always wanted to do comedy and it made me feel like I could definitely do that. I think seeing women be, there's a lot of unity in the film where they're not competing like what I was talking about earlier, that they find strength with each

other and with their friendship and they support each other I think that really meant a lot to me because it just seemed like so much fun well when you and I and Dolly made nine to five oh we laughed we laughed we did we laughed so much we found we had so much in common and it's so different here she is like Hollywood royalty I'm like a tough kid from Detroit. She's a southern kid from a poor town in Tennessee, and we found we were so in sync as women, and we laughed till we must have added at least a decade onto our lifespan.

I think. We sure crossed our legs a lot. If you know what I mean. Well, I feel like I'm adding a decade right now. Yeah, I think that was the biggest impact. And just the women in the film, they make all this change in their workplace. Spoiler alert, but they kidnap their boss and they tie him up and hide him away and they pretend that he's still acting as a boss in their workplace but they make all these changes

for the better and the workplace is thriving, business is thriving and the employees are really happy. And I loved seeing that, that they could make really big changes and in quite an empathetic, female, warm-hearted way. I think that got me. But mainly the comedy. I just loved all the silly comedy of it. I loved all the fantasies where there's this part in the movie

where they all fantasise how they would kill their boss. And in each of the women's fantasies, it's kind of they have their own theme. Like Dolly Pines is a Western, obviously, and she like lassoes the boss and cooks him on a campfire. And in Jane Fonda's character's fantasy, she's more like deer hunting him and I mean Lily Tomlin's characters fantasy it's it's more of a like Disney kind of princess poison I don't know what that is it's kind of like a Disney cartoon fantasy but I loved yeah there's animation in there as well yeah I just loved that element and I and I've always loved dressing up it's such a in terms of like an

armor like I love dressing up like to feel nice but more as in to change who I am or to empower me or or just I guess that's part of being an actor also play a role like take on a role yeah take on a role and I really saw that in their fantasy scenarios, how like Jane Fonda put on her hat and then all of a sudden she was like cool and strong and I don't know, I just, yeah, I think that had a really big impact on me too. It's really wild to me as well that it was made in 1980 but the themes in it, other than the fact that obviously it's very white feminism. Very white.

Probably not intersectional at all. It's very much about that kind of idea of, you know, white women, you know, needing help or whatever, and that's their narrative in there. So it isn't, yeah, very diverse. But putting that aside. Yeah, and the one kind of diverse woman who's like not, she's still a very white diverse woman, Maria, who I was like,

oh, she has my name. She like gets fired and has this like really bleak kind of, she's kind of the most victimised of all. Anyway, but yes, that could be tweaked for sure. Correct, yeah. But putting that aside, other than that, the themes in it feel so current. Even the stuff that they do in their workplace is incredible. I mean, they all have a backstory of being women that need to work due to circumstance. So Lily Tomlin's

character is a widow with four kids, you know, and Jane Fonda's character's husband's left her for her secretary. And then you get the feeling that Dolly's character doesn't have a lot of money. Her husband, I think might be like a musician or something. And so she's struggling and really needs this job. And because of that, they're kind of trapped into having to put up with a whole lot of crap, not enough pay, being sexually harassed in the workplace. And that's, you know, something that women can still talk about today in different industries. What I really loved too was the suggestions they put up for workplaces, which still aren't there today, but things like childcare, it's better, you know, childcare in the workplace, equal pay, part-time work and shared work, which is still something that women, you know, have to battle with,

trying to balance families, not getting promotions because the man is seen as the provider and, you know, you need to give the job to a man because the, you know, customers prefer to deal with the man or, you know, or getting promoted, like men getting promoted above you, even though you're the one that's been working there for longer and are more capable. I think Lily Tomlin's character handles that whole kind of storyline of her boss being this idiot and misogynist that she trained, but who's just been promoted because he's a boy's boy and a bloke, and then also takes on her ideas. And I know that's something that has happened to me and has happened

to so many women I talk to, that they'll have a great idea, but it's not until the man puts it forward that then it gets carried through. Yeah, I've definitely experienced that. And also the woman kind of like, the woman's kind of behind the curtain, doing all the hard work, sweating, you know, and kind of juggling all of this stuff and the guy's just out the front being like, ta-da, you know. It's such a, it's still, it's still.

A thing. It's still a cliche, right? Yeah, it's still a thing. And it's exhausting. Yeah. And it's so, it's changing definitely I think with I mean younger generations but it's still it's so like yeah the movie was made a long time ago but it's not that old and it's it's only like a generation before you know it's so still such a huge part of our

culture and it's yeah we're making changes but it's when it's something so systemic that's been going on for so long that's so deeply ingrained it's such slow progress to change so yeah of course it's still relevant like it's when I've watched it as an adult the film it's it's yeah it's amazing like it it's still there. I'm still like, yeah, I get it. And, you know, sometimes when you watch older movies now, you're like, oh, God. But there's still, I mean, there's, yeah. It's really problematic.

Yeah, there's still problematic in a way, but there's a lot that's still, yeah, so relevant. And it's interesting. A lot of it growing up, I think, went over my head. But a lot of it, I'm like, oh, that did sink in and make an impact watching that when I was younger, yeah. Completely. I was sort of interested after I finished watching it because I know

it really resonated and I thought, what are things like now for women in 2021? So I have some statistics for you if you're interested. Yeah, I'm ready. Which are kind of depressing. So we'll talk about some fun stuff after it because it's really depressing. So this is taken from the Australian government website. So at the moment, the full-time average weekly earnings for women in Australia are 13.4% less than for men. That's in 2021. The one that I thought was really

dangerous and that we know about is a real problem is the superannuation balances for women at retirement are 21.6% lower than those for men. And on the flip side of it, the median undergraduate starting salaries for women are 2.5% less than for men. So that's just, it's not just like, oh, well, they have kids and that's why they're working less. When they start out, their salaries are less and the gap widens. That's like, yeah, that's like the, from the bottom, the foundations are imbalanced. Yeah, exactly. The gap widens to 13% for postgraduates as well. So if they've had further study, but weirdly more women are finishing high school with a year 12 qualification.

So 92.5% of women versus 87% for men. And we also have higher achievement in terms of degree level as well. So it's 48% have a bachelor degree versus 36% of men have a bachelor degree. And yet when we get to be employed as an undergraduate after we've finished working, our salaries are less already. And then it just goes down and down from there. I just, I'm just like. So depressing. Come on, like it's 2020, like why? Like I'm just, I don't, I don't warrant it, but I understand in the past things have been really cooked and wrong and confusing and, but like now we've, like we're here now we've read the things we know the things we watch like why is this still a thing it's it's mind-blowing yeah and just infuriating

it really is I mean when you start looking at the statistics around CEOs and women in leadership it gets really scary so here we go for some more depressing stats and then we'll finish with some fun Dolly Parton things, I promise. No, you need to hear this. But I just did find this. This is from the 2020 data set. Women hold 14.6% of chair positions and 28% of directorships and only 18% of CEOs are women. So when you think about that, the flip side of that is that like over 80% of men are the CEOs. And so I wonder

also what happens when you're the outlier woman on those chair boards you know we're talking about positions where the decisions are being made where people are you know moving society forward the culture forward and then a lot of this means that you might only have a couple of women in the room and what is it like for them oh god and I it's infuriating. And also that means that we're not, no wonder we're not necessarily getting equal pay or we're getting workplaces that serve us if you don't have a diversity at that top level making decisions, right? Like that needs to change in order for us to get better conditions. And I don't think that men are going to give it to us.

I think we have to go out there and just fight for it right and not just talk about it like go and do it yeah which is frustrating because I'm like it's it's not the the labor of just getting equality is like put onto the women which is frustrating because we're already, yeah, at an imbalance and not getting paid enough to be doing all of that extra labor and fighting and pushing up against all resistance. And I have to represent all women because I'm the only woman in this, you know, area and all of like, that's really taxing energetically like that's exhausting yeah but I guess no one else look there are some men out there and some other

people out there that are definitely um doing great stuff but it's the majority of it lies in our hands women to to find that equality and yeah I think what could be interesting and now that I've said that that it's all up to us I guess it's it's not but it in that it actually is proven that when there are more gender balance more diversity in general people from different cultural backgrounds as well people of color and it's more evenly spread within a team, in a company or whatever setting, the outcomes actually improve. So statistically and in terms of, in from a business perspective, if we're purely looking at money and how much money a company can make, having a more diverse team and more women there and more people of colour actually is a good thing from a business sense.

Absolutely. And, look, I can't speak from a statistically informed point of view, but just from my own experience and not even in the corporate world, obviously, but in a creative perspective, the more diversity in problem solving in a workplace, the better. Like it's just there's so much, there's less and I'm not, I don't want to like hate on, it's not men, it's just that kind of patriarchal way of looking at things

where it's very competitive and it's that a bit pissing contest, very ego driven, like I don't want to look like I don't know so I'm just going to be really kind of you know balls to the walls I never have said that in my life now I'm saying it on podcast but but that kind of that that where everything's a battle rather than problem solving it's like this it becomes and I feel like that's a very kind of patriarchal old way of looking at things where when I've been in environments where it is diverse and there's people from all different perspectives working on something to solve it together you get so much more done there's no time wasted on egos or or dancing around people's sensitive egos or, you know, it's just, it's, you get more done

and it's way, yeah, you're not focusing on the problem, you're focusing on solutions. And I think, I don't want to say that's all because of the patriarchy, but it is something I see more in male, I'm saying that in quotations, but like male kind of run environments where it is there's just I feel like there's a lot of focus on yeah ego and and and any and the way things should be rather yeah and bravado and just kind of a set way rather than actually looking at what what you're working with and and looking at it from that, like just from thinking particularly with filmmaking, you know, sometimes you get off track because you're thinking about other stuff and it's like, hold on, what's the story about?

What are we actually trying to say? It doesn't matter who's doing what and who came up with that idea or who's in charge of this moment. It's what's best for the film or for the show or the story we're telling and that should be the focus. And I think when you have more diversity, it seems to nurture that perspective better in my experience. Yeah, in mine too, absolutely.

And I think it goes both ways because I worked in primary school teaching, which is predominantly women, and I think it goes both ways because I worked in a in primary school teaching which is predominantly women and I think when there is more even gender balance that just seemed in our teams just worked better because they had we were teaching boys and girls and having male teachers there yeah did give us a different perspective as well and and was really valuable and so yeah just the more diversity you can get, the better. And so just to finish off on my little stats adventure, exactly what we were talking about, the first thing that comes to mind

with making a difference statistically and in the research has shown that collaboration and encouraging collaboration is what helps and building empathy is also what helps, which is, I guess, what we're doing now is trying to get people to listen to a different perspective from their own and understand what's going on in people's heads and how that impacts things. And so, yeah, building that empathy, elevating female voices really helps. So when you're in a room, if a woman is speaking, you say, oh, I haven't heard from Maria. Thank you, Maria.

Tell us more. You know, not talking over her, seeking support from other women, so banding together, providing equal opportunities. So if you are in a position of leadership, really examining your own bias and not hiring just someone that seems exactly like you necessarily, so trying to provide more equal opportunities. And then mentoring and developing female leadership. So they all make me feel a bit better.

Yeah, and that's beautiful. That's what we should all be doing, particularly the mentoring and bringing other people up. I think that's kind of similar to what you were talking about with the tall poppy syndrome thing of like I think, I mean, it's different because it's not gendered, but just that, yeah, that element of it. We learn so much from bringing other people up and sharing

our experience and just bringing new perspective and being humbled by that as well because, you know, there's something really beautiful in that, like being like, yeah I actually I don't know how to TikTok can you show me that's a terrible example but but just but you know um just getting fresh perspective and and accepting that you don't know everything is yeah is a huge thing completely so as promised after our last step i had a little bit more dolly parton fun so do you know much about nine to five the song the theme song she wrote yes i think so i don't know if you're gonna quiz me on it we'll see no no but i know the song i've listened to this song a lot yes cool excellent I was like it was

it's not a quiz but I just thought I had some really great statistics about it did you know that Dolly Parton only agreed to do the film if she could write the theme song did not know that love that that's very cool isn't that cool and it ended up being the only awards that the show got the movie got even though it did so well were for Dolly Parton as the country singer. Yeah. And also for the song. So they were the only two awards that they got. Yeah. Best female country vocalist and best country song, even though that was nominated for a whole lot of other things that just got Grammy awards. That's bonkers. Which is crazy when you think how incredible it was. Yeah, I know. exactly. And it really launched her career.

So I thought, I mean, it's bed and stumble to the kitchen and different things on the set like working 9 to 5. What a way to make a living. So good. It's so good. It gets so good. Because she apparently, when she was writing the song, she was in her trailer when she was writing it apparently and she was like she didn't have an instrument with her

so that was like her nail, acrylic nail. Her way of doing it. Yeah. And then they kept it in. It's so cool. Yeah, vibe going on. Oh, God. She's just such a hero, Dolly.

The older I get, the more I love Dolly Parton. I just think, oh. So, I mean, even she's saving us with the vaccines, doing all kinds of incredible things. What a woman. What a woman. Seriously. My other favourite part in the movie was Dolly Parton's monologue

when she's like hog-tying her boss, basically, and that line where she's like, if you say another word about me or make another indecent proposal, I'm going to get that gun of mine and I'm going to change you from a rooster to a hen with one shot. don't think i can't do it oh my god terrible i've repeated that many times not that i have a gun or i've ever done that to a man but it's that that roost to a hen and one shot it's so good yeah isn't it it's just it's so good. Yeah. Isn't it? It's just, it's so good. Just the comic timing is just amazing.

Thank you so much, Maria. I've just loved this. Despite all of the tech issues you've had and everything, I've really so enjoyed our conversation. It's been so good. So final thing, what advice would you give to women in your industry coming up now? What advice would you give them? Just figure out who you are or what you care about or what is uniquely you

and just take care of that. I think rather than trying to be things that you think people want you to be, if that makes sense. Yeah. Just figure out what is you and take care of it. That's good. And it sounds simple, doesn't it? But it's actually really hard. Part of me was going to say, I feel like younger, an 18 year old probably could give advice to me. That's where my brain went. I was like, you know, I think they've grown up in a much more kind of like balanced environment. Maybe they would, you know, but anyway, look, we can swap, we can swap some advice. I agree. I completely agree. They know so much more than I do. I know. I think my role models were the little mermaid. wow yeah I don't have a very I'm sorry

oh far out oh gosh I know well it was just so lovely to meet you and get to talk hopefully you can do it like meet in person one day that you're in Melbourne. We'd love to touch up and get a coffee or something without a lag time. Oh, my goodness. Yeah. That'd be good. You've been listening to a podcast with me, Claire Tonti, and this week with the wonderful Maria Angelico. For more from Maria, you can go to her Instagram,

at Maria Gloria Grace Angelico, or watch her in Sisters on Netflix or the incredible Australian drama Stateless on the ABC. And if you want to hear more from me, you can go to at Claire Tonti on Instagram, where I like to tell stories or just follow and subscribe to this podcast. I would love that. I also have a website, clairetonti.com, where all my writing, my newsletter subscription is, as well as all the podcasts, including Suggestible, which I do every Thursday with my husband, Man James. And you can also leave us a review straight in-app if you'd like to,

just like something else at Indie SRS has. Listening to Tons, and what a great conversation between Claire Tonti and Zainab Johnson. Amazing. Thank you so much, mate. And you can do the same and I'll read your review out on the show just by heading on over to the app and giving us a rating. It really helps this show to be discovered.

And if you've got time and you thought this episode might be something someone else would enjoy, I would so love you to share it with them. It just really, really helps get the show discovered. And I also think if you love something in a podcast, it's one of my favorite things to send it to someone else because it's a little bit like sending them a really good book or something, except it takes five minutes on your phone. Anyway, that's it from me this week. Thank you as always to Roar Collings for editing this week's episode and I'll talk to you soon. Bye.