TONTS. - Writing & Motherhood with Jane Harper

Episode Date: September 30, 2022

My guest today is bestselling author Jane Harper. Jane's first novel The Dry following the story of Detective Aaron Falk was written in 2016 and has since sold over 1.5m copies in Australia and 3.5m worldwide. It also became a hit film in 2020, starring Eric Bana as Falk. The Dry is now the 15th highest-grossing Australian movie ever; another adaptation is in the pipeline for Harper’s second Falk novel, Force of Nature, which will also star Bana. She has also written two stand alone crime thrillers The Lost Man and The Survivors set, as all her books are, against the backdrop of the wild Australian landscape. Her latest release Exiles is the third book in her Falk series where he finds himself in the lush South Australian wine country. Run don't walk to pick up a copy!Born in Manchester in the UK, Harper moved to Australia with her family when she was eight. There, she lived in the outer Melbourne suburb of Boronia, and eventually acquired Australian citizenship. As a teen, Harper returned to the UK with her family and resided in Hampshire. Later, she attended the University of Kent and studied English. After spending time working on her career as a print journalist, she moved back to Australia. She now lives in Melbourne with her husband and two children. In this episode we discuss Jane's approach to her writing, what it was like to go from a relatively unknown print journalist to an international bestselling author and how motherhood has changed her. We also talk about mother guilt and it was so comforting to know that even Jane Harper shares this experience!For more from Jane Harper and to purchase a copy of her latest book Exiles you can head to https://janeharper.com.au/You can find more from Claire Tonti at www.clairetonti.com or on instagram @clairetontiShow credits:Editing - RAW CollingsMusic - Avocado Junkie Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I would like to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which I create, speak, and write today, the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation, and pay my respect to their elders past, present, and emerging, acknowledging that the sovereignty of this land has never been ceded. Hello, this is Tons, a podcast of in-depth interviews about emotions and the way they shape our lives. I'm your host, Claire Tonti, and I'm really glad you're here. Each week, I speak to writers, activists, experts, thinkers, and deeply feeling humans about their stories. And my goodness, I have one of my favorite writers of all time on the show, the wonderful Jane Harper. Now, I know I'm not alone in loving her work. Her book, The Dry, was a smash hit. It has sold 1.5 million copies in Australia and currently 3.5 million worldwide.

It also became a hit film in 2020, starring Eric Banner as the lead character, Detective Fork. The Dry is now the 15th highest grossing Australian movie ever. And another adaptation is in the pipeline for Harper's second folk novel, Force of Nature, in which Eric Banner will also star. So in this episode, we talk about what it's like going from a print journalist to having a dream to write a book, to then sitting down to write said book, The Dry, and then it becoming an incredible smash hit success in a very short amount of time. And then as you'll discover in this episode, at the same

time in 2016, she became a mum for the first time. She now has two little kids. And so in this episode, we talk about the craft of writing, where her characters come from, what she wants readers to experience while they're working through the book. And we look at her writing from a technical aspect. But some of the things I loved the most about this conversation was that it was warm and honest. And we really talk a lot about what it's like to be a mum, about how that changes your whole perspective on things and how to make that work and be a writer

at the same time. She has great advice for emerging writers as well and just life advice in general. We get to talk about why her characters are so vivid and how she approaches writing relationships, which I think is also a real standout in her books. You often have characters in these books that you just fall in love with and can really resonate. They feel really real. We also look at why she's chosen the Australian landscape as kind of an extra character and a backdrop through all her books. From a drought-stricken community in regional Victoria, to the rugged Goilang Ranges, to remote Queensland outback in The Lost

Man, or the rugged Tasmanian coast in The Survivors, to her new book, Exiles, which is set in the South Australian wine country in the Maralee Valley. So I just invite you to sit back, grab a cup of tea. This felt like a catch up with an old friend and it was just an absolute joy to meet her so here she is the incredible Jane Harper so yeah it's really exciting it's an exciting time when the book's about to kind of go public so yeah oh well I loved it fantastic I mean I love all your books they're amazing obviously you don't need me to show you that oh no that's so nice and thank you for reading as well like sometimes people yeah they get sent copies and they just don't have a chance you know and thank you for having me on the show as well like I like I've listened to like

quite a few episodes and things so thank you so much for having me on oh thank you so much for listening oh my goodness you know every person in my life who I said I was interviewing you had opinions and wanted to tell you they could not put the books down and I think that's for a lot of reasons. So I've got a question for you. You write really beautifully the Australian landscape and we know that in the dry and it's just stunning the prose but what I find so interesting is you also write people incredibly well and conversation so authentically. So your background was in print journalism. Did print journalism and working in that space teach you about people? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think working as a print journalist for 13 years, which is what I

did before I wrote The Dry, like helped me in so many ways that I didn't appreciate at all when I was doing it. I had no real sense of how well some of those skills would translate into fiction. But I think one of the biggest ones was exactly that, which was being able to talk to people. And I think I absorbed their stories and then be able to sort of share those, you know, on the page in a way that would hopefully engage people who hadn't gone through what they'd experienced. And there's so many, you know, there's so many instances of that where you go out and you speak to people about, I mean, sometimes it's a happy thing, often it's unfortunately not. And that ripple effects of how something has kind of changed their lives, often forever, it really stayed with me. And it's that I think that think that you know I'm still when I write the

books even though they're they're crime and mystery the crime or mystery element for me is just a catalyst what happens next and it's it's that ripple effect and what happens on the people left behind that I personally find the most interesting. Is that why you write so well about rural communities why did you choose your books set in those kind of settings? I think the settings always come there's something I think about quite early so when I'm thinking about the plots and what I guess the central story is going to be the setting is something I'm definitely considering at that early stage and what I'm looking for is a setting that I think supports the story so kind of depends a little bit on what that central story is.

But, I mean, often, you know, I like to write about communities that are sort of tight-knit in some ways with the good and bad things that come from that. So the characters are kind of forced to interact and have relationships of some level, whether they, you know, maybe like it or not. I like settings that ideally by the end of the book, you look back and think, you know, that story couldn't really have been told anywhere else. That was where it needed to

be set because the setting drives the action and it informs the characters in their behaviour and the kind of people they've become. And then the Australian landscape is so diverse and it's got so much opportunity. I think that's one of the most fun things is kind of finding these, you know, getting to go out and visit these places and find these landscapes and kind of try and represent them or give readers a sense of them on the page. You write so beautifully in Excels about the South Australian wine country. Like what an amazing spot to be able to go to because for the dry,

it feels like you lived there but that's not true right you didn't actually go into a drought-stricken community when you were riding the dry no I didn't live when I first you know when I was running the dry before in years up to that I'd lived in Geelong and then I was living in Melbourne when I was so no I've never sort of lived in that in in that sort of specific kind of drought-stricken community but I mean do the work on newspapers. Like I covered a lot of small-town communities and a lot of them struggling with weather-related issues

and the kind of the pressures being put on, you know, on farmers and what that means for them and their families. So I do always try and, you know, spend time in those. Well, I do always spend time in the places that, you know, I'm writing about. So for Lost Man in Queensland, that was one of the really fun research trips I got to go out to. I went to go out to the Outback Queensland to Birdsville.

I went to actually got some – I managed to kind of get in touch with this great guy called Neil McShane who is a retired police officer and he had policed Birdsville for 10 years being in charge of an area the size of the UK all by himself for a decade. So he was a great person. And he really kindly, I flew out to meet him in his small town where he lives now. And he drove me like 11 hours across the outback and shared his stories and went to Birdsville. And he introduced me to a lot of people. And I got to kind of go out with the nurse and his ambulance and go on some of the properties and things.

So that was a really fascinating one. But I think for Exile set in wine country, this has to be the most, like, enjoyable, relaxing, lovely research trip ever. I mean, I just got to go out to beautiful places, you know, in and around Adelaide and the regions. Was it like the Barossa Valley? Yeah, McLaren Vale as well. And it was just lovely. It was, the weather was gorgeous. The scenery is gorgeous. The wine was great. Like it was, it was just full of people. I mean, I fully appreciate his hard work. I absolutely,

you know, running a business like that. But from the outside, it was just such an enviable lifestyle. And, I mean, I loved my visit there and it was such a joy to kind of, I think, try and capture a little bit of that on the page in Exiles. On the page. And I'm conscious I don't want to spoil the story for people who haven't read it yet, but that absolutely comes across. And it's clear that Forkk who we love to meet again in

this book falls in love with that landscape too because of the way that you write so beautifully about it I wanted to take you back now and ask you why you are a writer because I'm really interested in that why people pursue the things they do yeah I think I can't really remember not wanting to write a book it was interesting because I remember't really remember not wanting to write a book it was interesting because I remember a few years ago speaking to someone who works in editorial section of one of my publishers and and she was saying that she's never wanted to write a book she just she likes reading and she likes working on manuscripts but it's just never she's never wanted to do it and I was I was genuinely like a little bit gobsmacked because I thought that secretly everybody

wanted to write a book. I really did on some level think this is everybody's ambition. And it sort of occurred to me actually, you know, the same way that I don't really aspire to go to the Olympics, you know, or climb Everest or something. There's probably people who don't want to write a book. But for me, I always did want to write a book. And, you know, I guess I enjoyed to write a book. But for me, I always did want to write a book. And, you know, I guess I enjoyed reading as a child. And I felt like that was something that I was always sort of

drawn to. And I always loved the idea of maybe writing a book of my own one day. And it's really as simple as that. I just felt it was something that I would love to do. And I guess that's why I got into journalism, because I wanted to write, but I had nowhere near the level of confidence or self-belief needed to actually write a novel. And journalism was a way of getting paid to write professionally. And then I did that for, yeah, 13 years until finally I did think, you know, if I'm ever going to write a novel, I need to actually like sit down and try and write one. And that was sort of the point at which then yeah I sat down and really started working in seriously on the book that eventually became

The Dry. Why did you decide was there a catalyst did you just think one day in the morning got the confidence or was there something that happened in your life that made you think it's now or never? I think it was probably a slow build-up it It had been something. So I was 34 when I started writing The Dry, and I'd probably been wanting to write a book, well, yeah, my whole years or whatever. But, I mean, I'd probably been thinking about it, I would say, seriously for probably six years by that point. And I think every year I'd sort of, you know,

a year would come and go and all my kind of list of secret resolutions would be try and write a book, you know, a year would come and go and all my kind of list of secret resolutions would be try and write a book, you know. I didn't have an idea or anything at that stage. It wasn't an idea that had been brewing. It was just a sort of broad kind of notion that I wanted to write a book about something. And I think I'm not really sure what changed. If anything, sort of there was one sort of moment that I guess it was kind of this creeping realization that I've spoken about this a little bit before over the

years but I think I'd always told myself that at one point I would suddenly have this great idea and this block of time would appear and I'd sort of have the time and I'd sit down and I'd do it and the idea would be there and and it was just that realisation that that's not going to happen. I still need to, you know, pay the rent somehow. I've got to keep returning up with this job on the newspaper. And, you know, I only get so many weeks annually the year. So if I'm going to do it, I've got to do it around my job and around, you know, my sort of real life, I guess. And I think that that was probably if there ever was a turning point it was that realization this has to be done around things and if I'm going to do it

around things I may as well do it now because what am I waiting for yeah and I loved what you write about your routine around it I think so many people have resonated with that do you want to tell us how you actually physically did that around working full-time yeah so when that when I wrote the drive I was working full-time and I had to sort of try and you know yeah fit it around it so what I used to do was I set myself like kind of just small patches of time so I would get up like literally one hour early in the morning and I'd do one hour or like 55 minutes and I'd just do that 55 minutes and then I'd kind of get ready for work. And then I used to come home and I'd stay in my work clothes and I'd sit down at the computer and I'd do one more hour. And then that would be kind of my reward.

And then I'd get to kind of go and have dinner and like watch The Bachelor or whatever. And I worked quite long hours as well. I mean, I used to get home to like close to 7 o'clock and and things so I was working weekends as well sometimes so it was it was a bit of a um it did take a little while to I guess find that discipline but I think like so many things once you get it it's like forming that habit you know you you kind of get used to it and the more you do the more you sort of feel well I've I've done that much. It would be a shame to stop now. So I would say, though, like I didn't have my children then. And I've often heard, it's funny because I look back and I felt so proud of myself for having written a book

while working full time. And I thought that was like such a great achievement. And now I have two children. And I realised that was the easiest writing sort of scenario that I've ever had. Like that was nothing compared to trying to write with kids. So if you're listening to this and you're wanting to write a book and you've got children maybe of any age,

particularly small children at home, I would give yourself a break. It is very difficult to write with children, I think. How has motherhood changed you? I think it's changed everything, really. I mean, it does, and people say that, don't they? But it's interesting for me, I guess, how motherhood and the books are so closely linked in that the drive came out in 2016, I think in June, and I gave birth to my first child

with my daughter in September that year. So, you know, it was a big year. And you got married just before as well. the year before yeah in 2015 um so it's kind of like I've never had one without the other like I don't really know what it's like to be an author without children and I don't really know what it's like to be a mother without the pressure of the books also being there so they're very very entwined for me. I think, you know, it does impact my writing in a lot of ways. I mean, everything from being aware that my children will, I guess, hopefully one day read my books and what kind of message,

you know, about relationships and all kinds of things. So I want them, if anything, to take away from them. To what degree is it worth me spending so much time the time I spend on the books has to be worth the time it takes me away from them both like I guess physically and mentally and so I'm really careful of of making sure that that time is well spent and it's it's worth the payoff of not being with them in order to do the work um so things like that I think they just sort of impacted on lots of different levels yeah have has the content of your work changed after having kids do you think I think it has yeah I mean it's because I didn't really I mean all my books have pretty much been written when I had had kids the drive being the only exception

and it definitely has like probably in big ways just in terms of I guess I think a lot about kind of the parent-child dynamics maybe in ways that I wouldn't if I didn't have the kids but even in like small ways like in in XR's the new book there's a a scene where um Fork and uh Reiko his friend are going off it's a bit worth in a book and they're going off to look at something around this festival ground and um Reiko his friend are going off it's a bit way through the book and they're going off to look at something around this festival ground and um Reiko's wife is there with the two children and I sort of make it a policy of mine like when I'm writing a scene I really I try not to do anything superfluous so everybody who's in that scene needs to be there and they're there for a reason and

they contribute something to it and originally I just had Fk and Roko going off and wandering around this festival, doing what they need to do for a little while. And I thought, you know what? I can't do it. I can't do it to Roko's wife. I cannot leave her at a festival with two small children while these men go off and do their work. Like they are going to take one of these children.

And I went back and I actually sort of rewrote the scene, which is quite unusual for me to sort of make that kind of change for no real reason the child didn't need to be there the child really you know but I couldn't I couldn't let those characters leave her with the two kids they had to take one of them because you know that's what responsible parenting is it's sharing the sharing the load and so it's just things like that I guess, kind of come out more and more. Oh, completely.

And I think that that's such an important message, isn't it, to send to our kids as well, that parenting is a shared thing, that it's not just the responsibility of mothers to be doing that. Is that how you parent now with your partner? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, my husband Pete is I mean so much part of the team when it comes to the books because I couldn't um I couldn't do without him but I actually I mean actually physically time and effort and everything else involved I actually couldn't if he was sort of aspiring to be like you know trying to be like a partner in a law firm or

something I would not be able to write the books while he also pursued a career so he absolutely has to sort of take on a lot of the the day-to-day tasks with the household and and the and the two kids so that I can have that kind of the time I need to do the books well and properly and I sort of see the books a little bit as our like family business I guess that we both we both work on them just in different ways and that's that's his contribution to to you know to the work that then supports our whole family so that's kind of my well both of us sort of approach to it really yeah that's how I approach it with my partner too we're all in it together and it's really healthy then because you feel like you've you've got each other's back and you can just keep rejigging it to figure out how it will work in the mess of all the parenting and

you know changing things as your kids grow and they need different things from you as well. I'm really curious about mother guilt because I've talked to other friends who are creatives and writers and I don't know if it's something that is experienced in the same way by men do you experience mother guilt around your work or are you able to just turn that off oh I absolutely experience it like a lot you know and I don't know if it's just inbuilt because I don't I don't on a logical level I don't think I have anything to feel guilty about in fact I think you know writing the books brings a lot to our family and I think it sets a good example for both my daughter and my son.

And I think the dynamic of having their father so, you know, heavily involved in the day-to-day parenting and the household running, I think is also a good example. I think, you know, it's sort of a good example showing them that you can make a career in a creative industry. You know, you can maybe that's different from sort of a following your dreams type thing, but you can, if you enjoy something creative, there are absolutely

paid opportunities within creative spaces to make a living. So it's all those sort of things that logically I think really sort of, you know, give them good life lessons and I hope will give them something they can build on as they grow older. But yeah, for sure. Like then, you know, fast forward to me sitting in my office, you know, on like a Sunday morning, like close to deadline. And, you know, my husband is out taking them somewhere yet again and you know and I know that when I get home I'm still going to be a bit distracted because I've got this really important scene to write and I really need more time with it but I can't stay there all day and all night so you know then yeah absolutely it kicks in so much and I can never really fully

get rid of it because I feel like I don't know maybe we just built that way I don't know I can only think it's a biological thing because it's I don't know what you do to to really to move past that to get rid of that and and when you're someone like you know Jane Harper and when I read out you know the dry has sold 1.5 million copies in Australia and 3.5 million worldwide and you still feel guilty for writing your books that's so nice of you to say actually thank you for saying that because like i do have it quite severely so to hear sort of someone say you know that i shouldn't you know is like it you know it actually means a lot to kind of hear that so so thank you

oh you're welcome oh i think it's just, it's innate in us. You're right, it's somewhere deep-seated. And I think part of it too is about giving yourself permission to be creative and to focus solely on your art because obviously that's so all-consuming and that's completely separate from parenting and your kids. I want to ask you about how you actually approach writing a book because I think you do it quite technically, do you? I do, yeah, and I think my process has

streamlined with every book as well. You absolutely learn what works every single time you learn something more and you get better and better at the process so I think if you're listening to this and you're trying to or struggling even to write a book of your own you know just know it is absolutely something that you can completely get better at and I don't just mean the writing I mean the approach to the writing you will there's so much information out there about different authors giving their opinions on how to write a book and not all of it most of it probably won't work for you it's about finding that thing that does work for you and so yeah what works for me is like I plan a lot so I'll spend the way I approach it now which works for me is that um I I spend quite a long time thinking about just thinking about the book I don't even really spend time at the

computer it's it's just kind of thinking what is this going to be about what's that kind of core story and a lot of that is I sort of start thinking about the end of the book actually rather than any kind of killer opening I'm thinking more about the sort of resolution where characters are brought together in probably like an extreme moment and what has led them to that and I'm thinking who, so who would that maybe involve and what's sort of the background to why that's happened. And I'm just mulling over the ideas and I write down, every time I have an idea, I write it down on my phone.

I have a little folder where I call like, you know, book five or whatever. I write it down. I do that because you think you'll never forget the idea, but I do. And I find it also frees up my headspace to think about other ideas. And a lot of it is like a trial and error thing. So, you know, I'm thinking, could it be this?

And, you know, the answer is yes, maybe it could be that. But could it be anything else? And I'm sort of trying different things to fit in that space. Like, is this person a man or a woman? What are they? What's their age? Are they old? Are they young?

Do they have kids? Are they, you know, and you're just sort of trying things on. And I find that when you find the right fit, it feels like the right fit. It's like that jigsaw piece and suddenly you can't really imagine it being anything else. So I'm just constantly kind of combing through the idea of just trying on different fits. And then when it gets to the point where I can't really I feel like I can't really put it off any longer then I I sort of go and start working on the computer side but by that point I probably got several

hundred notes on my phone about this thing so I'll start maybe putting them into some sort of order picking out the ones that I still think are good ideas and I start to form a bit of an outline and it's a really skeleton outline of what the book looks like it'll have like kind of just a few sentences probably beginning middle ends and then I'm starting to kind of flesh out from there so I'm building up kind of paragraphs about what these scenes look like and that inspires you to think of other scenes so you know you can't have they can't have this conversation over coffee if they haven't met yet so they need to meet earlier so things like that it kind of ideas prompt other ideas so and I'll plan and plan and plan and and eventually

I'll have this sort of I mean 40 50 000 word plan probably for a 90 000 word book where chapter by chapter is laid out and how the chapter's going to start and then how it's going to flow and it's only really then when I'm pretty sure like as sure as I can be that those scenes are the right scenes in the right place those are the right characters and this is the overall way this book is going to go then I will start writing the book and I'll write the scenes one by one in the order of the chapters I think as a journalist in me I don't like writing anything I don't like writing anything that's like not necessary like every word has to kind of kind of count so that's that's the approach it works for me but sometimes I tell people that other authors successful authors and I can see

this kind of they're just reeling back in horror you know like anything like that and I do the same for their you know their kind of freestyle you know see how it goes like coming to them from the clouds we're both looking at each other like we're both authors we probably should have some stuff in common but I don't I don't have anything to say to you we are so different because it's a very logical planned way of doing it which is actually so comforting to know, I think, particularly if someone wants to write a book, that you can actually do it that way and that you can be really disciplined about it and fit it in your life in those little hours that you've got around working and parenting and all of the things.

You make it sound so much more achievable, I think. Oh, I hope so, because that's really what I would love people to know, that it is, look, it absolutely is achievable. And I'm not saying, you know, everybody can have like a bestselling book or even like a published book because you can't control things out of your control. Your only control is over things that you can do and those things are finding the time to write your manuscript,

doing the best you possibly can, and that means finding a working process that works for you, fitting it in around your life commitments because you obviously have, everybody has stuff, you know, nobody has these blocks of time and even if you do, they're going to be short-lived. You know, you absolutely kind of have it within yourself to sort of try and follow the steps and it's a very self-fulfilling kind of virtuous circle where the steps. And it's a very self-fulfilling kind of virtuous circle

where the more you do, I mean, I remember getting halfway through the first sort of attempt at a draft at the dry and just thinking, God, this is so hard. But I'd already got halfway and I thought, well, I can't stop now. You know, I've done so much. I may as well push to the end. Creativity and creative pursuits, they seem so out of reach,

but they're just like any other project. You've just got to work out the way to approach it. It's not magic and it's never a lightning strike. And I don't care what other authors say. Maybe they do freestyle and maybe they do it differently for me, but ultimately everybody has to spend that time at the computer and everybody has to sit there while those words come on the page. And really that is the key of it. And it's just finding that way that is going to get you those hours and that time in front of the computer and get you to stick with it. One author I love, Glennon Doyle, says, unfortunately the only way to write a book is to write it.

Yeah. Do you enjoy the writing process? Do you actually enjoy sitting at your computer writing or is it like pulling teeth but you're soldiering through it oh look I it's a bit of both it depends on yeah where you catch me and what time in the process I mean I love writing books you know it's it's so great especially now like right now the book is you know exercise is done it's going to come out and I look back and then all that hard work feels 100% worthwhile. There are other days where I have to drag myself in.

Like it's a real effort to kind of go in. And I think a lot of the time you sort of feel, or I feel a bit like you're on a bit of a tightrope in that it's, no matter how much support you have, and I have really great support from publishers, my family, from readers, no one can do it for you. It's just me. And that's sort of sometimes you can feel very alone in that

with just you and your manuscripts. So I suppose it's like lots of jobs. Like day-to-day there are days when it's less fun than others, but overall, you know, it's so rewarding. I mean, how could I not love it? It's what I always wanted to do, and it's less fun than others. But overall, you know, it's so rewarding. I mean, how could I not love it? It's what I always wanted to do. And it's a really amazing feeling to see that book come together and to get into readers' hands.

Like it really is, it still is. When did you know that The Drive was going to be an extraordinary smash hit? Because that, you know, there's people who get their books published, but there's not many people who end up with their first book having Eric Banner play their main character no that's right when did you know when did you know that it was did you have an inkling while you were writing it that maybe this would be something special so when I was writing it definitely not then from there on it was probably a little bit of a kind of that kind of frog in a frog in a pot of water like it's sort of it kind of gradually became clear very slowly until you know

suddenly there was no denying it I guess so when I was writing it 100% not I I really I think one of the the best things for me about writing that book was that I I just honestly thought no one would ever read it so I I did things in that that I thought I just honestly thought no one would ever read it so I did things in that that I thought I don't you know it doesn't matter whether this is like convention or whether it's you know this is sort of a decision that you know other other writers would agree with because nobody's ever going to read it I may as well just please myself and I just wrote that book exactly as I wanted to with no eye on the industry or anybody else's opinion and then I entered it like I've spoken before a bit about how I can really work well to deadlines and that's

kind of the journalist's background and so I entered it in this unpublished manuscript competition that I knew was sort of coming up at the same time every year and I just did that as a deadline to myself to get it done into a shape where I felt okay it's complete to a degree that I can submit it. And then it won. And I remember getting that phone call. Actually, I missed the call. I missed the call on my phone and I could see the number was from like the group associated with the organising it. And I kind of thought, surely they wouldn't call to tell me I had nothing,

to tell me nothing, right? You've lost. There's a personal phone call from the organisers just to let you know, thanks for submitting, but no thanks. We hated it. So I called them back, sort of hands like shaking, you know, in the vestibule at work or whatever. And they said I'd been shortlisted.

And, you know, I honestly couldn't believe it. Like I was I'd be shortlisted and and you know I honestly couldn't believe it like I was like I really did not you know it sounds like the kind of thing I never thought it would happen but I really had never thought I never thought that would happen and then it kind of things started to snowball so then I won the competition and then I got all this kind of publisher interest and there was so much interest in it. I could, I just, I guess you start to sort of, even having no experience in the industry, you know, you can see that people really wanted to kind of sign up the book and it just sort of grew from there really.

So it was that really, but maybe if there was one moment, it was maybe that moment of winning that competition where I just thought, are you kidding me? Like out of all the books like like my book one why do you think it is like why is that why did it win why do people go crazy over it why did Annabelle Crabbe rave about it on chapter look three why did she yes she did she really yeah that that's how I found it actually that's how I get a lot of my book recommendations and she she still talks about

it sometimes really I have to oh okay so immediately after this I have to go and like it was years ago I think obviously because it came out in 2016 so what why do you think what is it about that book you know I I don't I mean I mean, I don't really know. I mean, other than, I guess, like, I always sort of, I always say that I try and write books that I would like to read. And I know that I would like to read The Drive. That was written by another author. I would, I would read, I would read my own books. I don't know, I guess. It sort of sounds a bit weird saying that out loud. But I would. And I, because I think, I mean, I sort of put stuff into the books that I like as a reader.

I like characters that, you know, have a realistic but do have light as well as dark. You know, they are able to form normal human relationships and they essentially, you know, a lot of them are essentially good people at heart but they make mistakes like all of us do. I like the settings i like settings yeah help drive the action and and a kind of form weave that you know working through the story um i do love a good kind of double-handed mystery where there's like a mystery but then another

mystery and that's something i was kind of trying to do in the books sort of um give a little bit of two for one sort of uh feel. And I like books that resolve well. I mean, and that's, I guess, why I started thinking about the ending so early in the process because I love as a reader that feeling when the books, when a story, the threads kind of come together to form a picture and you're like, oh, okay, so that's why that was happening back in Chapter 4. So it's elements like that that I guess

as a reader I like so I try to put them in the books and I don't know I mean maybe I'm just like really mainstream in my reading tastes and other people like that too I don't know but it's been it's so nice I mean readers when readers sort of say they enjoy the books or they've shared them with their family or friends or recommended them to someone you know it's I mean it's the best it's the best thing I mean that's the whole that's the whole point of writing a book I guess so that people enjoy it well they absolutely have I wanted to ask you about Forks specifically because he's a bloke right you know detective why did you write from his perspective like why did you write a male perspective I guess is my question yeah so it's it's it's sort of interesting looking back on on his character and like you know my thought

process I guess when he you know when he first sort of came to me um so that would be back with the dry and I remember thinking about you know who was who was going to be the main character in the story like what point of view is it going to be from and he was built very much out of he was formed from necessity in that I wanted a character who would sort of do certain things and fulfill certain sort of roles within the book and the main thing was I wanted someone who you know I thought the readers would follow through and they would warm to so I wanted someone who you know had a good heart and was someone who could sustain the story but also I wanted on a more technical level I wanted someone who was close to the family at the center of the book which was the

Hadler family specifically the father Luke who comes under suspicion of having you know killed his own you know his own wife and children and I wanted that to I wanted this story to be told from the point of view of someone who knew him well, but from a distance. So I didn't want it to be a close family member. I didn't want it to be someone who knew him really well in the present time, like was still like a current close friend. I wanted someone who had a bit of distance between them. And I didn't want it to be a girlfriend because I think I felt that was too loaded. And it added layers that were not necessarily going to play out well,

be relevant as the story played out. So that was the kind of the, I guess, the technical building blocks of how 4 came to be. And then from there the character kind of, you know, the characters growing for themselves and you learn a bit more about them. And that's sort of the case for all the characters. So, I mean, he's in three books. The others he's done are both also been from the male perspective and it's been sort of

similar reasons to be honest because I always think about who is going to who is going to be able to tell the story best and for example in The Lost Man I had that dynamic of the three brothers it's a very masculine environment it was just a realistic point of view that that would be from a male point of view but I think um I mean like having a um you know a woman as a main character is something that's like you know I think about every book and I think it's something that I would be very keen to pursue like very soon with that it's it's about finding the right characters for the right story and I think in each specific instance it hasn't been quite right for sort of plot and technical reasons but that

will absolutely absolutely become an opportunity to do that well I hope yeah going for I can't wait to read that book then for sure here's a question in exiles you write and touch on postnatal depression and you also talk about the difficulties in motherhood. Does that come from your experience or experience of your friends or is that sort of a broader issue and topic that you've looked at that affects women in general? I think a bit of both. I mean, I often with the themes that sort of emerge, I kind of, I sort of think a lot about what the characters will be going through and what kind of things realistically they may be experiencing. And I think, you know, postnatal depression or just even undiagnosed, really just struggling, I guess, with new motherhood,

I think is something that anybody who has ever had a baby would be aware of on some level, either to yourself or to, you know, to friends who are in the same mother's group. So, I mean, that was a really I I sort of feel it's more unusual to find maybe a wrong find women who don't struggle at all you know I think and I think quite often there's sort of this expectation that you pretend that you're fine and everything's fine and you're doing well because you know you want to do well and you love your children and you know you don't want to be sort of give anybody cause for concern or you just want to be seen

to be doing a good job at it. But I think, you know, babies, they are really hard work and especially if you do, like so many women, do have a job or responsibilities that they're having to manage at the same time. Like it's really hard and you're sleep deprived and there's a lot of pressure and you put pressure on yourself to kind of give these children the best possible start of any child ever in the whole existence

of the history of the world, you know. So true. So I guess it's just something that, I mean, in this particular book, it felt like a really natural, it just felt like a really natural sort of position, you know know that new mums find themselves both young and older mothers as well definitely I was shocked when I had my first maybe I've got two little kids a boy and a girl like you and it just shocked me the whole experience I just there were so many things that I felt really underprepared for. And now looking back, I think I'm so glad for all those experiences.

It's taught me a lot about myself. What has it taught you about women? Yeah, good question. I think, I mean, the resilience, I think, of mums especially, because I know there'll be people listening to this who don't have kids. And I do remember before I had kids there was nothing there's nothing worse than hearing mums congratulating themselves on basically just you know keeping their child alive and sending them off to school and you sort of think well yeah you know well done but then you have your own children and you become one of those

women who you know cannot stop talking about how hard it is and how you know how how draining it is and so I apologize to people who like you know have heard this a thousand times it's not relevant to them I do I do understand I remember that feeling but then my god like when you have your own children like it just it changes everything I mean everything from like the social your entire social life to you know what is I mean you know you get your end of year like Spotify raps you know when it tells you what you listen to most it says oh you know great job you know do you you really love this song and it's a theme song from Bluey you know so it just it just permeates every aspect of your life you know and um but I

think I mean I've met some really incredible kind of women along the way who have just done such amazing things while facing that challenge. And also, you know, shout out to the dads as well who I think now, thank God, like there's so many dads who absolutely kind of roll up their sleeves and get in there and do, you know, you see them at the school playground and you see them doing all the kind of stuff that just makes things, I guess, let's the women in the household still have their career and have a bit of a life.

Completely. You know, retain something of themselves. Yeah, which I think is key, right? It's trying to hold on to your sense of self and identity or figuring out how to do that eventually. Because I feel like, yeah, initially in your motherhood, there is a real shift in the person you thought you were. Do you feel like now your kids are a little bit older, you're starting to get back to yourself?

Or did you keep your sense of self the whole time? No, I definitely didn't keep my sense of self. No, not at all. So, yeah, I think it does come back you know like my kids they're six and two now how old are yours same six and two okay yeah so yeah so it would be like I and I think it does yeah I think you do I think also the second one is a bit easier than the first one I found because you sort of you're in that lifestyle already and but I mean it's hard for me sometimes to remember the person I was before.

I mean, it seems insane to me that I used to kind of have the energy to kind of go out and eat things and that I used to kind of wake up either when my alarm went off or when I chose to wake up. It's just like some sort of fever dream. I can't even imagine not waking up in the day. I'm also starting the day when, you know, someone else sort of comes like tapping me on the shoulder in the early morning darkness. So things like that, I guess.

But it's quite weird for me because I didn't have the books and I was living a very different life and then I kind of had the books and the children all in one. So I think, if anything, I'm sort of almost discovering like a new, like a third person and that's the person with both the books and the kids in you know as big parts of my life and that's a different that is a different person yet again from what I who I was before before I became a mother in the first place yeah which is actually kind of incredible really isn't it it's that growth

that happens when you start to get a little bit more sleep, things start to feel a bit easier. And then you look over this like insane period of time and you think, wow, I'm so far from where we started, but how lucky at the same time. You said that you wrote in the books that you wanted to teach your kids some things about people and relationships. What are those? What are the things you want them to read? I mean, obviously they're murder mysteries, but there's deeper themes there. What are some of those? I think some of the, I guess some of the lighter, the lighter sort of warmth that you get in relationships.

And I mean, I should probably say that, I mean, I don't write these books as like, you know, primarily as like lessons for my children. Like I hope I hope that you know my day-to-day hands on mothering will be kind of more of a valuable life lesson um but I do think as well I guess you know you want to I mean when you know when there's some teenagers in themselves I am sort of aware of things like consent issues and um I guess the relationships between spouses or boyfriends and and things like that and and not all the relationships portrayed in the books at every stage are you know obviously positive ones and but I think when they're not positive

that that is that becomes like part of the plot and it's sort of it sort of unravels itself in a way that the the good relationships shine through so I suppose that's the sort of unravels itself in a way that the good relationships shine through. So I suppose that's sort of the key. Like, I guess that's the thing that I would hope, you know, when they finish, if they read a book and then they finished reading it, they would be able to reflect on that and maybe just be able to differentiate between the good and the bad relationships you can have. What do you think makes a good relationship?

Because there are themes of coercive control and relationships that become really toxic in books, which I think is such a huge topic and an important one for us to enter into. And I won't go into too much more detail because we don't want to spoil things, but, you know, there's some really complex themes around violence towards women and all of those things. So that's lovely to have the flip side of that. What do you think makes a good relationship like a solid one?

Yeah, I mean, support is a big one. And I think genuine support in terms of actually not sort of performative support if you know what I mean like sort of saying you know I mean if my husband was sort of saying you know I support you in the books and you know you can sure you know good luck good luck go and do it but then he wasn't doing anything with the children or he was still really determined to pursue his own career or you know things that would then make it impossible you've got to have that kind of practical on-the-ground support, I think. I think as well, like I think sort of just finding like someone

who shares your outlook, whatever that may be, I think that can save a lot of heartache. And I often sort of think, I like to say this to my husband, like things like around money and stuff. Like I think I'm really lucky that he and I we share a lot of things from everything from like taste and tv shows through to our attitude towards money and spending and it sounds so unromantic but I feel like if I could give my daughter and my son for that matter advice about finding finding you know someone they'll be happy with it's it's those sort

of small day-to-day things that can, I think, maybe they don't sort of, they're not like fireworks and, you know, rose petals, but I think if they're wrong, they can make you absolutely miserable. Yeah. That's why it's important to get them right. There's a beautiful scene in the book, and I won't say between which characters, where they talk about the practical side of romance and that actually being practical is such a beautiful thing

and being punctual because they both value punctuality. And I really love that idea, you know, one of the characters brings a bottle of champagne and the other one is like, excellent, you've also bought sparkling water, that's great, and because we need to be responsible, we need to get back in time for me to keep doing what I need to do. And I just resonated with that so hard. There is nothing more romantic to me than, like, being sensible as well.

I totally agree. Absolutely. That's it. It's like there's nothing worse than some sort of big, like, gesture. But it involves kind of, I don't know, going out on a boat in, like, the middle of, like, I don't know, like a cool spring night and you haven't been worn, you haven't got a jacket and, you know, you've got to drive home to your car's parked in like a two-hour spot so nobody told you that you were going to be out for Holi. It's that sort of stuff. Like, yeah, okay, it sounds super romantic.

It's actually very annoying to not know what – I don't know. Maybe some people don't find it. Maybe that's just, I don't know it maybe that's just I don't our personality type but I think you know like knowing like give me think even like knowing what you're doing being kept in the loop being kept sort of appreciation for like people have commitments and all kinds of things that they can't just drop because someone's making a big gesture yeah and being comfortable and warm I feel like it's like really key for me yeah it's that idea of being really thoughtful about the small details that's more romantic to me exactly yeah really like getting a hot air balloon and you're actually afraid of heights or something absolutely you put it you put it so much

better exactly it's that kind of the small awareness of like those little things that are going to make someone feel good and comfortable and be able to enjoy themselves and just relax and that is so you know it doesn't sound like a big thing but it's actually really hard to get those things right I think it's a really good sign of being either willing to get to know someone or knowing someone well when you can tap into those small things anybody can throw money at the problem anybody can like blow money on like champagne or a big you know a fancy car or something. But yeah, but not everyone can actually get those small details right. I wanted to ask you now about what it's like to be a crime writer.

And have you experienced any misogyny or sexism within the literary world being a woman writing crime? Do you know what? So speaking for myself, I would say I haven't. But, I mean, if other, you know, female authors said that they had, you know, I would, I mean, I guess it wouldn't surprise me because why would the publishing and book industry be, like, the only industry in the whole world where there isn't some level

of sexism and misogyny? I mean, it's just so for me personally I mean I haven't I have never experienced that directly but I mean a big part of my work is like it's so solo you know I spend a lot of time just on my own writing the books and then when you know when the book is finished then it kind of goes into this sort of bubble of very supportive trusted people who I've worked with before, you know, and I do have really good teams around me at kind of every level. So I'm probably pretty cushioned, you know, in a lot of ways from anything like that. But, I mean, you know, it's hard to know, isn't it?

Because you never really know the path not taken I mean if I were if I were a man writing these books would I mean would would I don't know would they would they sell more or would they be reviewed differently or you know so you don't you don't really know what the other side of the coin looks like I think for myself I'm just lucky that I do have that level of support that it's not been something that that I personally unfortunately come across yeah yeah here's a couple last questions have you met Eric Banner yes my close personal friend Eric Banner um what was that like oh so I mean so nice like it's I've met him a couple of times now I mean it I'm so I'm so stoked that he is playing Falk in, you know, in The Dry and then also in Force of Nature, which has been filmed.

They're finished filming now. They're in the editing stage. I mean, what a great actor to kind of portray, you know, your character on screen. He's so beloved. He's such a, the warmth, I think, that I always associated with him on screen, I feel, has always come across the times I've met him in person.

He's been really, really nice to me. He's been so supportive of the books and the character and really bringing them to the screen in the best possible way. So yeah, I'm really excited to see, I guess, what he and the director, Robert Connolly, who also did The Dry, what they have done with Force of Nature. And, yeah, I couldn't, I mean, who better? I can't imagine anybody else playing that role now. No, I couldn't either, actually. He did such a beautiful job. Do you have any say in the screenwriting or is that all done separately?

Do they interpret the book? So Robert Connolly, who also directed The Dry, he wrote the screenplay and he he actually actually lives quite near me so we would meet up for coffee a couple of times actually while he was writing and afterwards and um you know just sort of yeah he told me what he was thinking and asked if he had any sort of questions about stuff that maybe didn't make it onto the page or anything that we just discussed things so but i but i would leave him it. So I didn't sort of help him or stand over his shoulder and, you know, offer helpful suggestions while he was writing the script.

I think mainly because, I mean, I have no experience script writing and I knew that he really understood the book. I feel like he absolutely kind of got that beating heart of what it was and what the characters, you know, what they were about. And so I what it was and what the characters you know what they were about and so I knew it was in good hands with him and same with with Force of Nature like he was we discussed it a bit we discussed actually this third book a little bit and about where Falk's journey sort of went after that um and I think that helps to inform him when he was writing Force of Nature and then he showed me the script when it was finished and, you know,

I was sort of happy to, you know, and I could see again he sort of had understood the books and the characters. So I'm really lucky, though, that he is so good at that because, yeah, I mean, if he wasn't, it would be a completely different, like, story and scenario. So, yeah, thank God for Robert, really. Yeah, well, I imagine he thinks that about you because what rich material to turn into a movie I heard that you have started the phrase outback noir as a as a genre of books which I just loved I don't think I started

that but I don't think I've ever uttered that phrase out of my own mouth, but I've heard it quite a few times since then. It does seem to follow me around now. Yeah. Well, it's just that beautiful writing about the Australian landscape. My last question is a funny one. So you grew up in Manchester and you came to Australia when you were eight and then you went back again is that correct yes I lived in Australia until I was 14 and then went back until I was 28 and then I moved back out here again okay and do you think that that's given you an ability to kind of see the Australian culture from the outside slightly oh absolutely yeah I think it really did I do sometimes wonder if if I'd lived here

my whole life you know would I have ever written a dry or would it be a different book because I think you know I lived I lived in Australia from 8 to 14 which is only six years but there were six such formative years you know I was so yeah I went from kids teenager and and I had dual nationality so I always sort of felt like I kind of you know I still felt a really strong affinity to Australia when we moved back to England and I always sort of felt like I kind of, you know, I still felt a really strong affinity to Australia when we moved back to England. And I always sort of thought at some point I would come back. And then when I did, it was weird because I had all these, like, really strong memories of kind of growing up here.

But then, you know, time had passed and I was older and, you know, your memories as a child are not necessarily accurate. And I had this really weird sort of experience of coming back and seeing things that were so familiar in some ways but so different like my old school and I don't know like the the things the newspapers covered and the weather and places that were completely different from how I remembered them and I think those sort of so constant kind of refreshing of memories I think really made me kind of hyper aware of the differences that make Australia what it is it was very different from

the UK in ways that I hadn't really anticipated but like in good ways you know but it was it was this different sort of conversations and and everything so I think then yeah when I came to kind of fast forward a few years when I came to write the dry I wanted to sort of I guess tap into those things that had sort of stood out to me a little bit at the time as being kind of uniquely Australian I guess. Yeah what were those things? What do you mean? A lot of it is the very small stuff so it's things like the dialogue between people the sort of terms of phrase yeah the topics of conversation as well I I'd never sort of I always thought people in England talked about the weather a lot but wow like I had not like sort of heard the weather discussed in such detail as when I moved

back to Australia in 2008 and I think the the landscape as well like the way it's just different from the UK like like in i've probably described it better in the books than i'm going to here but just the sort of the the kind of the green is different and the the feel like the the air and the way people use it like in terms of in england a lot of like cultivated like parks and green space but here in australia i found it a lot more raw and open and it had that little sort of sense of danger in terms of you know I mean things like just all kinds of safety safety things and stakes and all sorts of things that you just don't have to worry about you know

when you're walking through a park in leafy England you know things like that I saw you said that it makes such a good backdrop because things can go from fine to terrible in 10 minutes, depending on the weather and what you brought with you. And so the landscape itself is so hostile, as well as being incredibly beautiful, too. So no wonder it makes such a great character, an extra character in your books. Absolutely. Yeah. And thank you for, I guess, seeing that seeing them the books because that's exactly what I kind of hope you know that the the setting is is is a character

in itself and it does sort of contribute to the whole plot and a whole feel of the book as much as any any one single character does well thank you so much Jane I've loved this interview so much and I absolutely relished your book Exiles. I have just raced through it. I stayed up really late and had to get up with kids at like 5.30 in the morning but I just I couldn't put it down because I had to find out what happened in the end. So I really recommend everyone going to grab a copy. When's it coming out? It's coming out on September 20th, so now really. Yeah, now. Yeah, this will be out very soon.

Yes, definitely go and grab yourself a copy because it's absolutely wonderful. And what's next? Well, I'm doing events around Australia, so in Queensland and Sydney and in Melbourne around the books. So, yeah, if you want to come and hear a little bit more about the writing and I guess the ideas behind the book, I'm doing some in-person events which is the first time in quite a few years I've got to actually do face-to-face to see the the readers you know look them in the eyes so that that's really exciting for me because um yeah it's been it's been a few years so that

and that's I see that as kind of the reward for spending so much time like a hermit locked in a an office silently with like a ticking clock and a looming deadline and no one to talk to. I kind of imagined you were writing your books in some kind of beautiful loft studio with like a lovely view, you know, sitting in the lovely Barossa Valley or somewhere in Australia. It's a lot less romantic than that. Which actually is really great, right, because I think that's a lot less romantic than that which actually is really great right because I think some that's a barrier for writers too they think they have they can't write the books they have the perfect desk and the perfect spot

to do it in oh I know and if I tell you my um I actually I even have like the walls in the office are blank and stuff because I just I just feel like you know if there's nothing else to kind of there's no there's no good view there's no like really great furnishings or anything it's just the computer I may as well look at the computer yeah no distractions there's probably a nicer way there's probably there's probably a middle ground where you can have like a lovely lovely sea view or something and yeah, at the moment I'm kind of that sort of spartan, like monk-like existence. Oh, well, I hope you really relish and enjoy then getting out of your spartan monk existence to the world to meet the readers.

I have to say actually one of my very close friends is about to have a baby and a message shared today to tell her I was interviewing you and she said, oh, my goodness, I'm halfway halfway through the lost man I can't put it down I have to finish it before the baby comes on Friday and can you tell Jane I'm a massive fan so there's so many readers out there who just value the work that you do including me and um this has been such a privilege so thank you so much thank you so much this has been so much. This has been so much fun. Thank you. You're welcome. Thanks, Jane. You've been listening to our podcast with me, Claire Twente, and this week with the extraordinary Jane Harper. For more from Jane, go and find her books if you haven't already.

Start with The Dry, The Force of Nature, and then her new book, Exiles. Those are three sequential ones. So it's best to read all three as Fork is the central character in each one, though you could read them without having read the previous ones. Her other two books are stunning, The Lost Man and the Survivors. If you like a gripping crime drama with really thoughtfully crafted characters and beautiful scenery, head on over to grab a copy of her book, Run Don't Walk. For more from me, you can head to at Claire Tonti on Instagram or clairetonti.com, my website. I also have another podcast called Suggestible that comes out every Thursday with my husband, man, James Clement, where we recommend you things to watch, read, and listen to. And you

can bet your bottom dollar I'm going to be talking about Exiles with probably some more spoilers over there on Suggestible. So that comes out every Thursday. As always, thank you to Roar Collings for editing this week's episode and I will talk to you soon. Bye.