TONTS. - Writing Your Own Story with Benjamin Law 羅旭能

Episode Date: October 19, 2021

Benjamin Law grew up in Queensland, gay, Asian and from a big, hilarious, hardworking family. Benjamin is my guest this week and he is a writer of books and TV shows and plays. You might recognise him from the award winning SBS TV series The Family Law based on his memoir of the same name. He is also warm and articulate and funny. Benjamin wrote a book on sex and relationship advice called Law School with his mum Jenny Phang who also happens to be in his wonderful documentary series for the ABC called Waltzing the Dragon where he explores his Cantonese roots and the relationship Australia has with China. Not only does Benjamin share his coming out story in this episode he also talks about what it is like to have your parents divorce when you are 12 and the racism that he experienced when the red headed politician Pauline Hanson swept into popularity in the 90s on an incredibly racist, anti Asian platform. He has a PHD in creative writing, has written many pieces including the Quarterly Essay Moral Panic 101 and was editor of Growing up Queer in Australia. He also co-hosts a weekly pop culture show called Stop Everything. Benjamin’s writing is at once moving and funny, walking that line of making you laugh while hitting you with searing honesty and it was a joy to meet him. Here he is all the way from Adelaide quarantine, Benjamin Law.For more from Benjamin you can head to www.benjamin-law.com and here is a recommendation recipe from Ben for Chinese Chicken Congee https://lilydalefreerange.com.au/recipes/Chinese-Chicken-CongeeYou can find me at @clairetonti on instagram or at www.clairetonti.com and subscribe to my newsletter hereAs always thank you to RAW Collings for editing this week's episode. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This podcast was created on the lands of the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation. I'd like to pay my respect to their elders past, present and emerging. No birth is easy. Everyone thinks baby number three will be quick because the lady is already stretched out. This is my mother. For as long as I remember, she has been... Step, step, step right into mummy's vivi. Inappropriate.

Ben! Ow! I've got an audition! Well, I've always liked making people happy. It's true. Every time he gets on stage, people can't stop laughing. Everyone, I want this floor so clean I can give birth on it again! Aw, Andrew, I love you. Is everything OK? and give birth on it again. Oh, Andrew, I love you.

Is everything okay? With you and Mom? Just give them space. You wouldn't know what it's like to slay your guts out for this family. Deadbeat! What the hell's a deadbeat? Why can't you just forgive Dad? You're a good boy.

Dad, come on, I don't just wake up like this. Thank goodness someone took the initiative to seek outside help for this family. Thank you. My name is Benjamin Law and this is my family. Hello, welcome to Tons of Podcasts. you. My name is Benjamin Law and this is my family. Hello, welcome to Todd's, a podcast about feeling all of it. That was the trailer you just heard for Benjamin Law's wonderful TV series, The Family Law. Now it has three seasons and it's on SBS and you should absolutely go and check it out. It's based on his memoir about growing up in Queensland, gay, Asian, and from a big, hilarious, hardworking family. Benjamin is my guest this week, and he's a writer of books in TV shows and plays. He's also warm, articulate, and incredibly funny.

Benjamin wrote a book on sex and relationship advice called Law School with his mum, Jenny Fang, who also happens to be in his wonderful documentary series for the ABC called Waltzing the Dragon, where Benjamin explores his Cantonese roots and the relationship Australia has with China. Now, we talk a lot about his mum, Jenny, at the beginning of this episode because she is just downright hilarious. And you can hear her portrayed in that trailer. And what a crackerjack of a person. She's awesome. Not only does Benjamin share his coming out story in this episode, he also talks about what it is like to have your parents divorce when you are 12 and the racism

that he experienced when the redheaded politician Pauline Hanson swept into popularity in the 90s on an incredibly racist anti-Asian platform. He has a PhD in creative writing, has written many pieces including the quarterly essay Moral Panic 101 and was editor of Growing Up Queer in Australia. Benjamin Law also co-hosts a weekly pop culture show called Stop Everything and his writing is at once moving and funny, walking that line of making you laugh while hitting you with searing honesty. And I felt that in this episode. He was so funny and made me laugh so many times while at the same time telling me some very deep truths. And I can't wait for you to hear this episode. It was a joy to meet him. Here is Benjamin Law, all the way from Adelaide Quarantine.

I wanted to ask you first, why writing? Oh, that is a good idea. And you've sent me down an existential spiral, Claire. No, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. Look, I think it wasn't so much that I grew up thinking, oh, I want to be a writer. I want to be a person of letters or anything like that. I don't think I really valorized the idea of a writer in that sort of way. But what I was, was a huge reader. So I loved reading books when I was a kid. I was that Asian kid in a very, very white school who was reading so much. They were just like, is this child a genius? And he's like, oh no, he just likes to read. I was actually really average at a lot of the other subjects. He just

likes to read a lot. So I consumed so much. And I think like looking back as well, because it's not just the world of books in which I work now. In fact, most of the work that I'm doing now is writing screenplays for TV. And so I was consuming books, but I was consuming a lot of television and consuming a lot of movies. And this is probably like, I'm coming to my 40s soon, like I'm in my late 30s. And I think like our generation, understandably, were told like TV's really bad for you, right? But I grew up in a household where my mom was just like, well, I don't give a shit. And as a result, I think it was really good that I was raised in an environment where books were valued, where like so-called

highbrow TV, which we didn't think of it in that way, but we watched like subtitled movies when we were growing up, which I now realise was arthouse European and Asian cinema. And we also watched total, you know, trash, like, you know, competition shows and gladiators and man, oh man, and who dares wins. And I think all of those things together, I don't know, really said in my mind that storytelling is really cool, right? And to be able to produce them, I think, and to write them was something that I got much more interested in later. And maybe a philosophical way of answering your question, Claire, is I like stories and I like sharing. And a good way of sharing stories is to write them. It's your job to write them and share

them. Totally. I loved meeting your mum in Waltzing the Dragon, not personally, on my screen. She just seems like a cracker of a human. Do you want to tell us about her and your relationship? Of course. So, Waltzing the Dragon, two-part documentary about Chinese-Australian history, but each of the episodes sees me kind of travel across Australia and China with one of my parents. And it's good we kept them apart because they're divorced and they hate each other. But mum is extraordinary because she, you know, like when I think back on her trajectory, she grew up as one of,

like she was the youngest daughter of seven children who grew up in Malaysia. She's Cantonese-Chinese. And then when she was barely in her teen years, her family just packed everything up and they fled to Hong Kong because there was a lot of anti-Asian violence in Malaysia at the time. And they grew up kind of quite poor, I guess, especially compared to their relatively middle-class upbringing in Malaysia.

And so there were days where she was just in these shitty Hong Kong schools without any lunch, you know. And then from there, she met my dad and she just took this massive gamble to go to Australia, a country where she'd never been before. And, you know, like as much as I think like that's an extraordinary story about my mom, it's a very Australian story, you know, like it's such a. We're a nation of First Nations people that goes back over 60,000 years, and we're a nation of migrants. It's kind of like the oldest of the old and the newest of the new in this one country. And my mom is very much of that story of the newest of the new. So on one hand, it is extraordinary what she did. But on the other

hand, I'm just like, oh my gosh, this nation is full of those people who just thought i'm going to move to another country either by choice or circumstance and then she you know did what migrants do so well in any new country which is breed a lot she had she had she had five kids in a very white part of australia the sunshine Coast in Queensland, which is very, as she says, very beautiful and very boring. I mean, a lovely place to visit. But I think like for her, she was like, she went from the megalopolis of Hong Kong to Caloundra. And she raised us.

And look, by the time she split up with my dad, I was 12 years old. And I think back on those years, and I think, you know, they were tough on everyone. And when you're growing up, you're like the narrator of your own story, obviously. But for my mom, I'm like, gosh, she split up from my dad younger than I am now, raising five kids as a single mom. Like, I can barely keep a pot plant alive. You know what I mean? Yeah. So I think like she, especially as I've gotten older, especially as, you know, my siblings are raising kids of their own as well. I think it's become much more clear to me how much of a superhero my mum is. Absolutely. And funny.

She's funny, dude. Funny. Where does that come from? Is that just who she is? Yeah. Look, I think there are a few things, right? I think partly it's because she's Cantonese. So like of Chinese people, Cantonese people are funny, they're loudmouthed and they're sweary. The whole language has like nine tones. So it's a real punny language full of double entendre and really blue humor. So I think that's partny language full of double entendre and really blue humor. So I think that's part of it, her culture. I think the second part of it is the family in which she was raised. She's one of seven kids. And if you do come from a big family, you tend to end up being pretty rambunctious. You have to speak up in order to be heard. And when I hang

out with her siblings, my uncles and aunties, I'm like, oh yeah, I see what's happening here. Like you're all kind of deranged in your own way. And then I think the last part of the equation, Claire, is it's just her, you know, it's her innate personality. She's funny. She finds humor in really dark things. She's an incredibly resilient person. And I think it's such a buzzword to throw around resilience but I think one of her trademarks of being resilient is she's still able to laugh through some pretty grim shit.

You know, she's lived through some stuff and she's seen some stuff. So she's just funny. She's just really, really funny. She loves a laugh, loves a laugh. Loves a laugh, loves a laugh loves a laugh loves a laugh loves a laugh what we must have been incredibly tough to be a single mum then and raising all of you together do you remember that being a hard time yeah sure I mean I was it was just like it was so tough I ended up kind of like writing a book about it you know like part of my memoir the family law was

about was about those years of my parents splitting up. And that translated and was adapted into a TV show that we created, the first season of which was very much a comedy about divorce. It was a black humor about one of the grimmest things that a family can go through. Yeah, those years weren't ideal on several levels when you think about it. I mean, one, there were so many children to raise. Two, the breakup was not a clean one. It was actually really, really messy.

And I don't think any breakup or divorce can be clean. But now that I'm at the age where friends of mine are going through separations and kids are involved, they're messy, they're heartbreaking, they're kind of soul depleting really, but they've operated within the realms of civility that I don't think my parents were able to. And then I guess for us as kids, you know, there's such a big age gap between the five of us that I think we experienced it very, very differently. And I don't want to speak on behalf of them, but for me, it was really like my, God, this sounds so dramatic. It was like my childhood was over. And I remember this clean break because all throughout primary

school, my parents were together. And then at 12 years old, we went to Hong Kong. It was my first time on a plane. It was my first time Kong. It was my first time on a plane. It was my first time overseas. It was my first time leaving the state of Queensland, actually. So it was a really big deal to go on this family trip to Hong Kong. And then soon after that trip, my parents split up. So it was kind of like, oh, that's over. The good times are done.

And then my high school years were oh just it was interesting like there there was my parents splitting up i'm gay i'm a chinese kid in a very white part of australia during the rise of pauline hansen and she was very anti-asian in her first phase um she's like a video game boss phase one very anti-as. And it was particularly hard because, you know, she was incredibly popular where we were. And One Nation still is quite popular on the Sunshine Coast, actually. So you'd have friends come up with their parents' cars in One Nation stickers and logos.

In fact, you know, my friend's parents ran for One Nation as well. Like it wasn't a fringe thing. And so those kind of conversations about me and my race became really kind of uncomfortable and sometimes, you know, just outright racist. And so all of those things started to conspire together. And of course, you know, growing up gay in the last mainland Australian state to decriminalize homosexuality, not great, not great, but it could have been worse because I kind of flew under the radar. They could tell that I was Asian. I don't think therefore they could suspect that I was gay. They couldn't comprehend two things at

once. But it could have been a lot worse. Yeah. When did you know that you were gay? Was it something like a dawning realisation or? Well, it's kind of like there's a difference between the feeling, the knowing, the language, and then using the language, if that makes sense. So like, I look back, obviously, gay all along, just like heterosexual people are straight all along, you know, I had like crushes on boys, but I didn't have the vocabulary for what I was feeling i was just like i just really love my mate cameron i really want to hug him i just really love my mate cameron you know like i just really like him he's a good friend so the feelings were there and then of course the vocabulary seeps in pretty quickly in an australian schoolyard when you're growing up in the 80s and 90s so like gay is synonymous with just being

shit a lot of really awful gay jokes a lot of really awful aids hiv jokes as well because it's very much the era where gayness and queerness more broadly is pathologized because of this thing that is disproportionately harming queer people especially gay gay men. And so then I do have the language, but the language is synonymous with something terrible. And then you have to tell yourself, well, am I, aren't I? And then you kind of come out to yourself before you come out to anyone else. And then of course you spend the rest of your life coming out in so many cases, you know, like, you know, sometimes I'm still like a taxi driver will ask about my wife or my girlfriend and I'm like, okay, why? Like do I not seem queer enough to you? And so and then it goes on and on and on.

Yeah. Does that ever make you angry that you have to constantly do that whereas hetero people don't have to constantly be just saying, I'm hetero in different situations I think they should more they should they should have to no I don't think angry and it depends on the day of the week Claire like you know I remember I was in um the Japanese city of Hiroshima I was on I was just traveling with my boyfriend. And it took a long time to explain in my very poor Japanese phrasebook Japanese that we just needed one bed

together for the both of us. And Japan's not like a homophobic society as we would know it, but it's just like, especially outside of the big cities, you're not necessarily going to be able to have a frank conversation about sexuality that openly without making people feel uncomfortable. And so in that situation, we're eventually, you know, after much kind of like giggling from the reception and a lot of like, you know, sorries and sumimasens, you know, we eventually got out of bed. But that was comical, right?

Like that's not anger.en's you know we eventually got our bed but that was comical right like that that's not anger that's not annoyance that's just kind of like okay this is this is becoming a story and then on other and then on other days it's not anger like if i get have a taxi driver and um it was a rainy day i remember before lockdown and i was just like oh well you know lucky i've got an umbrella and he's like yeah and it's good thing you've got an umbrella because then you can wait at the lights and you can offer it to the hot girls, right? And I'm like, and as soon as he said that, my reflexes, like I went from being a kid and a teenager who was so reticent to talking about my sexuality in the closet to being this adult

where as soon as he says that, I just go, I'm gay. No, I'm gay. I'm gay. Like it just comes out almost like this aggressive reflex. Yeah, yeah. So, no, I feel like, you know, you get to an age and stage and it's easier to clarify. I don't feel as much of that tension or should I or shouldn't I,

at least in Sydney. I mean, I have the privilege of living in Sydney where, you know, if you're a homophobe, you know, you're outnumbered. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. You're with your people. Totally.

Could you, could you tell us the story of how you came out? Who did you come out to first? Oh, yeah. So when I was 17, we graduated a little bit younger in Queensland. So when I was 17, I'd finished school and I told myself, well, look, I'm going to come out because this is just driving me insane. And at least I know if anything goes wrong, I'll be out of here in the big smoke of Brisbane and no one, you know, I'll be able to carve my own life. So I told my friend, Rebecca, my best friend at the time, and she was so good about it.

She was so, so lovely. And I thought, okay, well, I can do this. I've told Rebecca, I think I can tell my mom. And I had to tell my mom because even now, if she's the last to know anything, you're going to die. So I had to tell my mom. And looking back, you know, she would have, she was always going to be fine with it. I'd never heard her say anything homophobic.

I'd never heard her say a bad word about gay people. And she was so open-minded and frank about all things to do with sex and sexuality. Also, she hated, like, traditional patriarchal bullshit. You know, like, I don't think she had the language to call herself a feminist, but, like, she does now and she declares herself a feminist. She obviously was growing up.

She modelled that for us. And so I told her, but it was one of those things where you can't get the words out and you just cry and i call it sally from home and away crying like the kind of kate richie when she cried on home and away it was always it was so convincing because it was really unpleasant i was like my pippa taught me that break is dead and And I was crying like Sally from Home and Away. I couldn't get the words out. I was just like, Jesus Christ, what the fuck is going on? And so I made her play this fucking guessing game. And she's like, okay, I'll guess.

I'll guess. Are you on drugs? And I'm like, no. I wish I was right now, but no. Have you gotten Rebecca, my best friend pregnant and I was like no that's that's colder colder and then on her third guess she's like oh are you gay and I I you know I was like wow she's got it and I was just like yeah and she's like oh don't be silly there's nothing wrong with being gay it just means something went

wrong in the womb that's all which you know like my my mom's second or third language is english and we like it sounds so hilariously wrong to say like oh you were just an abnormality in nature but with her understanding and her expression her ability to express what she was feeling that was actually quite quite a consoling thing to hear like what she was saying is i think you know she's saying it was like left-handedness it's it's yeah it is you're born with it yeah and it's within it's within the normal variations of nature but it just came out as something went wrong in the womb. Oh, wow. That is not how I thought that was going to go, that end of that story.

Isn't it poignant? Isn't it moving? It's so moving. And having seen your mum on telly, I can totally hear her voice in the way she would have said that. Oh, my gosh, absolutely. How did the trajectory from there go? So did you kind of have to explore that with your mum more

and with your siblings? Was that tough for you going through that or were people generally accepting? Look, using the sentence, I explored my sexuality with my mum and my siblings is not quite right, so I won't go there. But I know what you mean. I know what you mean. That's terrible.

That's terrible. No, I know what you mean, which is, yeah, it takes explaining. It takes conversations. And also you're still working stuff out as well because, like, I had met maybe one openly gay person in my whole life by the time I'd come out. Like I talk to people now who grew up with like gay uncles and queer aunts or their parents were even gay and I was just like, wow.

Like I just did not, I mean, obviously looking back, I did know queer people but they weren't open about it or I didn't know that they were. And so I had no point of reference. And so I was still kind of working stuff out myself, but the conversations were really lovely. It was like, you know, I had my older siblings who are really, really great and really open-minded. And then I had my younger siblings who I got to explain things to. And I'm like, well, you can ask me anything. It was like an episode of You Can't Ask That, but a sibling coming out edition. that was really sweet and you know it wasn't that much longer that I had a boyfriend and so

they got to meet him as well and he became part of the family he still is you know been together for that long and so you know Scott's been part of the family for so long and I think that really just helped just normalize everything too yeah it wasn't a huge leap for them. They accepted it quickly. And I see myself as quite lucky because, you know, I've got queer cousins and they've had a much harder time of it. It strikes me that in all of this you're a great storyteller. Do you remember the first time you wrote down a story

and thought this is great, I could do this? Okay, I've got a few answers to that. One is I remembered making like a zine in grade four. I didn't even know it was a zine, but it was basically a handmade magazine because I loved magazines growing up, Claire. I loved TV Week I loved who weekly I loved the bulletin weird like it was at least we anything like a national geographic like whatever rolling and then teen years Rolling Stone and Juice and HQ a lot of magazines that don't even exist anymore and in grade four I I made this magazine that was basically a tabloid gossip magazine, but about the world of witches and fairies and trolls and monsters. And I remember illustrating it and writing it and having such a fun time.

Like there was a story about how they were going to drain the Loch Ness to find the Loch Ness monster to determine whether it was real or not. And it was so fun and silly. And I remember being really, really proud of that. monster uh to determine whether it was real or not and it was so fun and silly and i remember being really really proud of that and then i then in grade 12 i wrote this short play not that i wanted to be a playwright at that stage but i wrote this short play for the cultural capers competition and it was about how the cast of party of five adopted and fostered a refugee child to kind of, and it was a piss take on about how the cast of Party of Five

ultimately had First World problems. And it was really savage and it almost got taken down mid-performance, but it was pretty funny. And then, I don't know, like I think the first real stuff, though, were like magazine bylines. You know, seeing you have a legitimate magazine byline, first in Music Street Press, then in the Metropolitan newspaper and then in glossy magazines, then that really was the big deal.

But even before then, you know, I wrote Letter of the Month for Rolling Stone when I was like 17 years old and Letter of the Month that week, the prize was a Panasonic stereo. And I'd never, you know, I grew up in a family of five kids, so we didn't really have things of our own. We kind of shared everything. And so having my own stereo was a really big deal. I'm like, wow, writing is such a well-paid profession.

I'm going to get into that. It's carried through, obviously, too. Yeah, totally. Definitely. Do you ever suffer from an inner critic? Do you battle with your creativity? Oh my God, are you kidding? Like, I think to be a writer is to have that constantly because the act of writing is editing, refining, editing, writing, vomiting on the page, editing. And every time you do any one of those steps, what you put on the page is literally incorrect. It's not going to be what you finally submit. It's not going to be what's published. It's not going to be what's performed for the screen or stage. Everything is not right. And you have to like face that constantly.

It's just like, oh, that's not quite it. God, that's a really crap sentence. That's a really shit line. That's not what I'm trying to say. What am I trying to say? It's constant. And that is the job to kind of be a rigorous masochist when it comes to refining the story.

And then, of course, sometimes work comes out and even then you're like, I don't really know about that, you know, like a work might actually end up going on the page where you're like, oh, I've still got reservations about it. So, yeah, it's constant. I don't think, I think partly it might be a personality thing like imposter syndrome or whatever, but I also think that it's constant i don't think i think partly it might be a personality thing like imposter syndrome or whatever but i also think that it's part of the job to be self-aware enough

that you know that it's not right because i think the danger in being the other thing and i know plenty of writers who submit work to editors they submit work to their producers or their or their dramaturgs and they're they're so furious and indignant when they get notes. And I think that's fine. If you get notes and you're like, well, I don't stand by that for the following reasons, but this is a really good pickup. Every writer should do that. They should know when a note works and when it doesn't and why. But if you just think that no one else can better your work, that's a problem because that work's not going to get any better. So you do have to leave your ego at the door. And it's this tightrope act between knowing

when you are using a healthy reserve of self-criticism and when you're just flailing in a sea of unjustified doubt. That can be hard to differentiate. Yeah, completely. Are you a perfectionist? Oh, yeah. I mean, I don't know that much about star signs, but when my friends who do say, you're a Virgo, aren't you? And I'm like, yeah.

Like for some reason they can all tell and apparently Virgos are perfectionists, is that right? I've heard that, yes. Yes, so maybe, but I think i don't i don't think that that's too much of a problem you just have to make sure that perfectionism doesn't come at the cost of finishing something do you know what i mean like sometimes people would rather just not finish something because they need it to be perfect no just you need to finish the bloody thing um and i think as long as perfectionism doesn't manifest

as being a control freak, it's not a bad thing to have in your back pocket because I figure perfectionism in its best form is just aiming really high. So if you fall short, which you inevitably will as a writer, especially if you have high expectations of yourself, if you fall short, then hopefully you'll still be decent. Yeah. What is that saying? Reach for the moon and you'll still be among the stars. That's right. That's right. I'm not sure about like, you know, I'm not an astronomer. I don't know if that's scientifically sound, but yeah, I think that's the vibe, right? We'll still break

through the atmosphere correct we'll go for that vibe for sure do you have a relationship with your mental health how's that going with lockdowns and do you have any tips for people to kind of keep their equilibrium um I have to say so I um I'm actually talking to you Claire Claire, in quarantine on Garnerland, which is modern-day Adelaide. And so I've gone from three months of lockdown in Sydney and just as Sydney clopens up, as they call it, clopening, I've gone straight into quarantine.

So I haven't actually been able to enjoy much of Sydney opening up except the pools opened for a week before I left. And I like to swim laps and that helped a lot. And so when the second lockdown happened, I have to say I did see it coming because I kind of am a pessimist and I had a hairdresser the day before, I had a haircut the day before and told my hairdresser, just go really short because I'm pretty sure we're about to lock down. And I swam a kilometer and just in my mind going, well, enjoy this, savor it because I have a strong feeling you're not going to be able to swim really, really soon. And fair enough. I'm not saying I'm Nostradamus. The signs were there. But sure enough, the day after my haircut and my swim,

we closed. And I think that's sometimes good just to like be aware of what's happening. For me, it was important to know that because you have to eventually yield control. There are circumstances outside of your control, which is really shitty. To be honest, I think I've got an advantage. I had an advantage going into lockdown because I don't have kids. You know, like I think some are just like, just follow these rules for mental health in lockdown and you'll be okay. And it's like, well, what if you have kids? What if you're relying on a pension?

Like what if your work relies on you being in a physical space that you can no longer be in? What if you are able to work from home but you don't have the equipment you need to work from home? What if you work from home and you're around flatmates like there is no one formula like i think there's only so much in all of our control when it comes to our mental health and i think there are a lot of things that are structural as well but in terms of what worked for me personally for me i need routine and i think like lockdown I was even more mindful of don't slip because it's so easy to fall off the tracks because like oh my god Claire I don't know about

you but like I have not thought about alcohol so much in my life then in lockdown and and I'm not a huge drinker either but I'm like no if i start drinking on um you know because i i'm not a huge person in ruling anything out like everything in moderation but i'm like if i start drinking during the week that's going to get dangerous for me i think other people can manage it i knew i couldn't i know if i play too many video games if i really lose myself in the nintendo that's not going to be good for me either but also at the same time like rest and reward like put the work in rest reward i was very much about that yeah i don't know if that answers your question but um it's been a challenge but nowhere near as much for other people especially in

especially in the city of melbourne yeah i know it has been an interesting ride. I had a baby during lockdown. No way. Wait a minute. Was that lockdown one or two or three or seven? Lockdown a thousand. No, it was lockdown one. So I was pregnant and had her in between that first one and the second one. So your baby's had like their first birthday. Is that right? Oh, my gosh. Yes, correct. Congratulations. Thank you. What a milestone. Yeah, we've crawled over the line. No, she's great.

She's awesome. That's so nice. But, yeah, I hear what you say about people in different situations and having kids. I've got a five-year-old too and it's need to be hair raising at times. I mean, parenting is just the impossible task, you know, in any circumstance, right? I'm not saying that from first-person knowledge. I'm just saying that because obviously my mom and everyone I know who's a parent, like, it's just so impossible.

And then I'm like, oh, my God, add a pandemic and a lockdown on top of it. And even with all of the parameters that you operate in lockdown, I know there's that kind of gnawing existential stuff which is just like, are my kids going to be safe in this world? And that must erode at you as well. Yeah. I mean, not to send you into more of an existential spiral, you know all this.

That's all right. I was there already so, you know, you're not making it any worse. It's fine. And then you throw on climate change and we're all having a real fun time just imagining the future i guess although i did i did read a really great thing by um matthew beard who's a philosopher for the abc and a presenter and he wrote a piece about parenting and climate change because he's a parent himself and i thought he presented the first argument that really made not changed my mind but made me see that whole equation differently which is if you're going to be a parent in this era it means that you will have a bigger stake in the future of this planet because

how can you not and I thought like that's for a non-parent like me I thought that was a really really important thing for me to read as well. It just clarified, you know, because I think some people are smug either way with their choice of having children or not. It's like, well, here's why I do what I do and here's why I have to. And it's like, you know, everyone, good for everyone, right? Correct. And I think what's great about parents in this is that you really have an inarguable stake in these conversations. It's so true. And I think

Osher Gunzberg, who suffered from climate anxiety, he talked about having children as the ultimate act of hope, which I love too. I love that. That's a beautiful way of putting it. Yeah, don't you think? And that's what made me think about going in to have a second, I guess, as well in the end, because we want the world to be hopeful. We want there to be a future for our kids and for everybody. And if we don't believe in that, we're not going to get there, are we? Yeah, it can be like an act of hope and defiance. And also they're pretty bloody cute. So like, it's funny that, I mean, it's not funny, haha, but it's funny having you having a kid in the first lockdown, because that's exactly what my sister did, my younger

sister. And so we've had, we're calling them coronial babies because it's born in the era of corona. And I have to say, when you're talking about mental health, it comes full circle because one of the things that's really helped my mental health, even though I haven't been able to be as present there as an uncle as I plan to be, has been watching my nephew grow up. That really does help me with my mental health, giving me hope, like you say. Yeah, watching kids grow up is like really, really important. Yeah, it is. It's a wild ride and actually, to be honest, in some ways they've saved us, I think, through this because we don't have any time to do anything.

And every day is so different. You know, my five-year-old comes in and he's got grand schemes and big plans and it's 6 o'clock in the morning and we've got lots of stuff to do and he's got a watch that he's really into and he's got grand schemes and big plans and it's 6 o'clock in the morning and we've got lots of stuff to do. And he's got a watch that he's really into and he's like, 6.01, we have to be up, we've got to build the Lego, you know, which I, yeah, so I think life is tough in all different ways for people during lockdown and, you know,

there have been really tough times too with kids, but that is amazing. Yeah. And there's something special about kids and their enthusiasm for the world you know unbridled creativity you get to see things fresh again um or they're like or they'll come up with something where you're just like whoa that is a surreal way of looking at things but i kind of love it you know i um i work with uh Story Factory which is a not-for-profit

in Sydney that gives free creativity writing and writing workshops to um kids usually from disadvantaged areas and backgrounds and whenever I volunteered for Story Factory or run some workshops I'm just like oh my gosh like I'm a professional writer in a hundred years I could not have thought of what you've just said or how you see that situation. Utterly delightful, slightly violent, but utterly delightful. Yeah, it's like kids are the best. Yeah, they are.

They're so funny. My son's obsessed at the moment with the fact that there are different worlds and he kind of sees the world as being, you know, like this world that we're in but there's other dimensions out there and, you know, like this world that we're in, but there's other dimensions out there. And, you know, dinosaurs are in another dimension. And I'm trying to explain, you know, time. Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. But, you know, to him that imagination is kind of amazing.

And, you know, my dad's passed away and to him he sees him as just existing in another world. I kind of love that concept. I think, you know, the people we lose are with us in different ways. I was about to say I've had people who know things about quantum physics explain the multiverse theory to me and it turns out like it sounds like your son might actually be right as well. You know, infinite dimensions apparently coexist

at the same time. I don't understand how that's possible, but he might actually be scientifically correct. Look, I wouldn't be surprised. Who knows? Amazing, isn't it? I wanted to ask you about your Chinese background and your heritage. What do you do in your life that connects you with that background? Do you speak, is it Cantonese that your mum speaks? Yeah, so I speak it really poorly. I'm really good at like the basics, numbers, requests. I'm really good at yum cha. So when I go to yum cha with friends, they're like, oh my gosh, you're fluent in Cantonese because I'm asking for tea. I'm like, you know, saying this many of blah. Like I do sound like a fluent Hong Konger in a young child restaurant, but no, it's just about food. And to answer your question, honestly,

for me, it's less about language. My parents speak Cantonese to me and we're really trying to instill as much of it as we can with our nephew as well. But for me, it's kind of less about language because I feel and find that language is actually really easy to lose, for better or for worse. And it is actually quite tragic. You know, there's a reason why, you know, children of migrants lose language quickly. There's a reason why First Nations languages, of which there were so many prior to colonisation, have just been obliterated and why it's so important to keep them alive.

Language is easy to lose, but food stays. And I'm the son of a restaurateur. My mother is the daughter of a restaurateur. So cooking is just base level for us. Like when my friends at school told me they hated their parents cooking, like I't compute i thought it was like like do i need to call um docs for you like do you like what what what's going on like how can you not like your parents cooking and so for me you know um the just that kind of for me can Cantonese cooking is like standard cooking. And I'm so grateful for that because it's one of the best cuisines in the world. It is the idea of Chinese food for

most Australians because the Cantonese were the first waves of Chinese migrants in this family with the gold rush. So when you think of Chinese food or the Chinese food you grew up with, that's usually Cantonese food and that's the food that I cook. And so that's usually how I tap into it, just kind of knowing, wow, this is the sort of stuff that my ancestors would have been doing, you know, folding these dumplings and making this very same dish that's been passed down through practice and oral history. And I love how food is culture, you know, it braids together the geography of a place, you know, what grows in that region with a reverence for it or the attitude of the food speaks so much. And I think Cantonese food is rich with all of that. What do you love to cook?

You know, it's so funny because like I'm in quarantine, I'm actually in quarantine, one of the people I'm in quarantine with is Elizabeth Chong, who's the veteran TV chef who introduced Chinese cooking to so many households through Good Morning Australia with Burt Newton. It's a longer story for why I'm quarantining with Elizabeth Chong. But it's been really nice to cook for each other. And it's hilarious because I'm sure you've asked me that question, assuming I'm going to be like, oh, and I've been cooking like this magnificent Cantonese pork belly dish. I cooked a lasagna the other night for everyone. So I'll do like my super whitey food or my Italian food rather, because I'm really proud of having learned those skills later in life.

I was like, I looked at a lasagna growing up. I'm like, what is this? How did they even make it? Like even now, I think like gravy. What is gravy? What a magnificent thing. I have no frame of reference for what the hell even gravy is. But then at home it will be like cooking like a lot of like, you know,

stir fries and noodles, rice with like steamed, fresh steamed fish, like just the simplest thing you can do to a whole fish is just steam it with ginger and spring onion and a bit of soy and some Chinese rice wine. I make wontons as well, so make dumplings from scratch. Well, not entirely scratch. I don't make the skins. I'm not a psychopath. But, you know, folding dumplings from scratch,

that stuff is really soothing to me. Yeah. What would you make if you were under the weather? If you're feeling sick and you've got a cold or Scott's got a cold? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's always congee, which is just basically rice boiled down to porridge. So that's usually with stock or it can be with water and you just add soy sauce later, some ginger, congee. There are variations of congee basically throughout Asia. You know, South Asians have their version. There's a Japanese version. When you go to Myanmar, for instance, it's basically rice and stock. And the Cantonese version is quite boiled down. So it is like a thick soup. So when people hear, oh, rice version is quite, quite boiled down. So it is like a thick soup.

So when people hear, oh, rice porridge is like, that sounds disgusting. Porridge is supposed to be sweet. But think of it as like a soup. And rice is hypoallergenic as well. No one has an allergy to rice. So you can serve it confidently to anyone when they're feeling sick and they will be able to digest it. It's really gentle and you can customize it, right? You can put what you like in the congee. So if you're not adventurous and you don't want a century egg in there, for instance, which I actually like, or you don't want all of that stuff, you can just have a plain congee, you know, ginger made

from chicken stock with rice. It's the simplest thing, the best thing for your body to heal up. I really recommend it. Oh, that sounds amazing. I'm going to make that now. Yeah, I'll send you a recipe. I would love that. I think that you're so right. There's something about food that's universal, right? And bonds us all together. She's just so beautiful. And I think in lockdown, a lot of people have lent on that too,

right? Yeah, yeah, totally. And also if you're the person in lockdown who's just like, I would rather die than cook and just order takeout, well, you were supporting small business, right? You were keeping them alive. So don't feel guilty if you didn't. No, absolutely. You are contributing to the planet and the world and keeping everyone safe for sure. Where do you get your work ethic from? That's a really obvious question. Yeah, my parents, classic migrant parents. I don't think they ever had a conversation with me which was like work hard. They just modelled it.

You know, my dad, he was a small business owner. He worked seven days a week. I never remember him taking a sick day, which he probably should have, especially like in COVID era. Everyone should take sick days. But my dad him taking a sick day, which he probably should have, especially like one thing in COVID era. Everyone should take sick days, but my dad never took a sick day. And in fact, I don't even really remember him sick. And he worked seven days a week, seven nights a week as well. He'd do the day shift and the night shift, basically never saw him. And he put five kids through like a Christian school because the public schools in our area were a little bit rough,

especially for like Asian kids, and he's just like, maybe not. So he put us through like a good school, but then he also nearly went bankrupt when I was in my early teens and then had to work even harder to kind of like make up what those school fees were. Like it was a punish for him. And so you just know like there's there's no such thing as a free ride I've never had a salaried job either so I you know not that I work in the

same world as my dad did but I get it like there is no such thing for me as a sick day there's no such thing for me as you know paid service leave or anything like that I don't have bereavement leave it's just like you you get what you put in and so you better work hard and then also making the decision to work in the arts and media there's no security there are no guarantees you do like your degree you're not gonna you're not it doesn't guarantee you a job in your chosen field so you actually have to put in that much more and then i think the other thing is being from a minority background and i'm sure like anyone from any marginalized group or women in general would feel this it's like sometimes you feel like you need to

put that extra effort in in order to prove yourself so that if anyone says that you're here because they hide you because you're the token blah that you have to prove them wrong. So there's usually that much energy that you're putting into your work as well. I think all of those things combine to produce a work ethic that will probably drive me to an early grave, Claire. That's just when I was looking into your background, I just thought, bloody hell, this guy works like a Trojan horse, I guess.

Yeah, well, I've kind of also got no excuse to I mean it also comes back to the parenting thing as well like I'm an unencumbered inner city homosexual like what excuse do I have not to be putting the hours in do you know what I mean and I kind of do feel that like kids won't be my legacy so I'm gonna invest the time into work that said I've got you know so many kids in my life that I am invested in as well. But, you know, it's different for non-parents, I think. Was that a conscious choice that, well, obviously it is in a lot of ways to decide not to have kids or look after kids?

Yeah, I mean, it was. But I'll tell you a funny story, right, Claire? So I'm convinced that my boyfriend did want kids for a while and I'm like, I don't know, you're an only child. Like I remember what it's like having kids in the house. They're pretty intense. And then I remember we had a friend's place with really young kids and he's just like, whoa, that kid's intense.

I'm like, dude, no, that kid's fine. That's just a kid and that's what's required of us. And I think after that there was this tacit assumption that we just wouldn't have kids. But then, okay, so the funny story is I ended up at dinner with Esther Perel. Do you know Esther Perel? Yes. I've heard of her.

Their relationship guru? Yeah, yeah. She is everything I want to be when I'm in my 50s. Same. I mean, she's amazing, right? Yeah. So, I mean, it's a total, like, name drop. But I had to interview Esther Perel for the Vivid Festival in Sydney,

which was so cool. And I love that I got to share the stage with her and moderate and all of that sort of stuff. And we finished up. And I'm like, it was so lovely to meet you. Have a great night. Like, do you need any advice about what you want to do in Sydney? And she's just like, well, what are you doing now, Benjamin? And I'm like, it was so lovely to meet you. Have a great night. Like, do you need any advice about what you want to do in Sydney? And she's just like, well, what are you doing now, Benjamin?

And I'm like, oh, my God. And so we went out to dinner together. She, her husband, myself, and my partner, we ended up at a wine bar. And she asked me the same question about kids. And I was like, oh, well, you know, like, we blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And she's like, Benjamin, I'm going to stop you right there. Do you see what you are doing? You have made assumptions.

I was just like, oh, my God, it's happening. It's happening. And she was kind of right. Like I think it's a live conversation. Like I never want to rule anything out of my life. Right now we don't have kids. It's not a priority for us. We have had the conversation in the past about not having kids and us being

really happy about that but i also think it's prudent like what estelle was saying is just like also check in like it is it's a dynamic thing all of these things no one's static right do you still feel that way do i still feel that way so the feeling is no at the moment like i just really want to see my nephew for christmas um but But there are myriad reasons why, just like there are myriad reasons why people become parents as well. And I think it's worth having that conversation because I think not enough people who decide not to have kids and I think not enough people who do decide to have kids explicitly ask the question,

why are we doing this? And I think it's important and it's healthy. I mean, after the fact, you really can't take it back, but you know what I mean. Yeah, I it's important and it's healthy i mean after the fact you really can't take it back but you know what i mean yeah i know it'd be nice wouldn't it yeah yeah you love them 100 of the time all day every day best thing i've ever done yeah for sure yeah no oh gosh i love esther for that reason that's so funny you got esther pereld with your relationship right there totally freaked out but at the same time it's super exciting I'm just like oh my god I get this

free I love this oh my god I'm gonna die I'm gonna die yeah exactly and it is so true right though that in relationships it's about that honesty and that constant checking in and that communication because it's so I think we grow so much as people and change and I've been with my partner for 16 years or something yeah wow and we work together and and it's not static I think with the people we are change in like a cyclical kind of way I think so too I think so too yeah how did you meet Scott oh my god Claire we went to high school together I mean we weren't together in high school and we did go to a really big high school so it was one of those high schools where you could not know

anyone else meaningfully and we were in different year levels so when you're in any school um you know anyone in a different year level may as well be in a different universe but also a really big school means oh okay we really didn't cross paths that much but then we were on the same music tour together he sang I played clarinet it's a sexy sexy story um but then I went to university he graduated from high school we worked together that summer I came back and then we hooked up I mean like and there's been a lot of kind of like breaks along the way and a lot of long distance stuff but yeah we've been together for a really really long time and I think that's less to do with anything that I could give in terms of advice

because you know like why how have you stayed together for so long and I you know you could say the familiar things like communicate and check in with each other, don't go to bed on a fight. Like all that stuff's true. But I also think like a lot of it's luck. I don't know if you feel the same way, like 16 years with someone and there are some things you can explain which you and your partner, I'm sure, have like worked at it because relationships are work. But a lot of it's luck, like good or bad.

It's like, oh, my God, like we ran into each other at that stage in life. Like I don't think if I'd met Scott, I don't think I would be like in a super long-term monogamous relationship for this long. Like I'm just not convinced that would have happened. I think it's just him particularly and for him particularly to be in that right space at the right time. Like that's just, I think it's kind of beautifully random. It is.

It's that chaos. It's chaos in some ways. What is, Patton Oswalt said, it's chaos, be kind. I don't know why it made me think of that. But it is, right? Like, you know, I think, yeah, it's just this beautiful convergence of people at the right time. And so much of it is timing.

And sometimes I've seen good friends of mine who I think could have really done really well together but the timing wasn't there and someone was going one way, someone was going another. And, yeah, you're right. It's also about that person. Like I don't know, I never assumed I would have kids but I wanted to have kids with my partner because James is awesome and we're friends first before we're anything else, you know.

He still makes me laugh. The minute we met we could talk, you know, the leg off a chair and we still are talking, you know, and it's lockdown and babies and working together. You're right, a lot of it is luck and work but luck and accepting too that people aren't perfect. I think there's an idea out there when I was younger that you meet the perfect person and that they should give everything to you and I know

Esther Prell's all about this right but it's about you being the partner for them it's not them just being there for you or something you know and expecting them to jump through these hoops yeah not perfect and not everything either. Like I think the one thing that people repeat about Esteparel a lot because it's so true and so few people say it is like it's a relatively new phenomenon to expect that your life partner will be everything to you. Like they've got to be, you know, your closest confidant. They've got to be like the craziest sex partner you've

ever had they've also got to be the person who helps you co-parent they've also got to be the person who collaborates with you on personal administration they've got to be your best friend they've got to be you know so many things and it's like whoa and she's like well you know a generation ago it was like a village of people who played all of those roles so I think it's also like cutting each other some slack as well and making sure that you both have people around you to kind of like complement all the things that you need from people 100% I completely agree with that I think it's dangerous to assume anyone can be one thing for you and it's building that village of people around you. Who's in your village?

Ah, that's a good question. I mean, I feel like I was born with a village. I was like born into this family of two older siblings and then two younger siblings came along and we're really tight-knit. Like I think my family's been through a lot and I feel like now that none of us are in our 20s anymore, which is confronting, but we've all mellowed and we're all like, okay, we've got better perspective on what's important and what's not.

And I think we're actually one of the rare families that still really enjoys each other's company. I can't think of people I'd rather go on a holiday with besides my partner, of course, than my family on a big trip, which I know would be most people's version of hell. But I constantly crave time, proper time with my family. You know, they're always my confidants with everything. And even now I'm, you know, relying on my youngest sister for some practical stuff. And we all depend on each other in very, very specific ways.

And then, of course, my boyfriend, he is just core of everything. His mom, who's just really, really great, she's provided for us in so many ways because when it comes to his family, it's just the two of them and they're really strong people. And then I know a lot of people with whom I'm great friends and I could name like hundreds of people with whom I could happily have a drink and then there are just like a core number of people who really know what's going on inside, who knows what's going on in my life. And they're probably like half a dozen people. And you kind of know who they are because they're the people

who you wouldn't hesitate in saying, could I get a lift to the airport or I'm in hospital and I need you to know, you know. So when it comes to those people, there aren't that many, but I know who they are and that's more than enough. What has age taught you I thought you're about to say how have you aged or what what's aged you what's what's aged you the pandemic um what is what has age taught me use sunscreen on a daily basis ideally because, you know, it's the fastest thing that will age you. Cut your parents some slack, which I still struggle with.

Like I think you'll always be your parents' child, but especially when we get to a certain age, the care dynamic does reverse and change and alter and splinter, and so I really need to cut my parents some slack, and I think a lot of us could as well what else has age taught me oh just like figure out how money works I think a lot of I actually really love talking about money with people who work in the arts especially because I think it's often the last thing that we like talking about but it's so crucial that people in the arts talk about it especially

because people who work in the sector are often the most financially vulnerable with the least amount of stability so i'm glad i had that pep talk with myself relatively early but i think sometimes even now my accountant's just like wow you are really basic aren't you you'll say does that all make sense? And I'm like, yeah. And he's like, you don't understand. I just like that's the subtext of every conversation I have with my darling accountant who I rely on for so much and I don't know what's going on.

So, yeah, but getting a handle on top of that, I mean, I give myself shit but I do have much more financial literacy than I did when I was in my 20s. And then just what's age taught me? Move your body. That sounds really weird. I'm not an elite athlete by any means, right? But because I have to use my brain so much, I think maybe I just dismissed the idea of having to use my body, maybe even look down on, you know, people who think that that was important. But those things happen in tandem. And now I think like coming right back full circle to the original question about mental health, Claire, you know, my physical health is paramount

for mental health. Like I realized that those two things aren't just separate silos like if i don't exercise most days um my mental health takes a dive i know that i'm lucky enough that i'm in a position now that a swim can solve a lot of things not everything i'm not saying a swim will solve clinical anxiety and depression i'm not saying that but i know that for me often it's the reset I need when I'm in a really, really not great state of mind. It's just enough to get to pull things back together. And that helps for me. Yeah. Move your body so your mind can take a rest. It's so true, isn't it? I know the more I do this show, that theme comes up so often. Mental and physical health are just intrinsically linked.

And this idea that if we just have to look after our physical health or we just have to look after our mental health, I mean the brain sits in our body, right? Like it makes total sense, you know, that you can go from your body to your mind just like you can go from your mind to your body. And it can shift and you're absolutely right. There's also, you know, clinical anxiety and depression your body and it can shift and you're absolutely right there's also you know clinical anxiety and depression and medication and all of that stuff we're not

just saying you know that old-fashioned just play more tennis and you'll be fine yeah no i think it's more like a toolkit right like everyone needs a mental health toolkit and i think if you haven't put physical health in that toolkit it's definitely something that you should. And don't be like, oh, now I have to run like 5Ks or whatever. Like be gentle. Something that I'm using in quarantine at the moment is my friend. My friend has three kids and they have a Nintendo Ring Fit, but they haven't used it for ages. And I'm like, so she's just like, dude, just take it to Adelaide quarantine.

So I've been using the Nintendo Ring Fit and I'm like, sorry, this isn't like a sponsored ad, by the way, but I'm like, this is so good. I've been building up a sweat every day. It makes me feel like really happy afterwards. Oh, that's so great. All right, excellent. Maybe I'll reach out to them.

They can sponsor this. Totally. We're doing amazing. Yeah, absolutely. Oh, God, I love Nintendo. All right, thank you so much. This has been such a valuable Yeah, absolutely. Oh, God, I love Nintendo. All right, thank you so much. This has been such a valuable conversation, Benjamin. It's just been wonderful.

And I know so many people admire your work and feel seen because of your work as well. So thank you so much. What are you doing now? What are you squirrel the way working on? I am working on a TV project that will be a comedy drama that you'll know about i think by the end of the year you'll know about it and then by next year you'll be able to see it that's all i can say that's very exciting oh all right a teaser i love it

excellent yeah yeah yeah yeah for sure and where can people find you? They can find me on Instagram and Twitter, MrBenjaminLaw, or you can just Google my name and, yeah, you'll see me in the first hits. Great. Excellent. That sounds great. And your podcast is wonderful too. Oh, thank you. It's just so good.

Has it been really hard to keep that up during lockdown? Well, I mean, I've got my mic in a milkshake glass at the moment and so I'm relatively portable. No, we just recorded the latest episode of Stop Everything yesterday so it's literally on air right now, right now. I shouldn't say that, right? It's just like, yeah, we're live every day. We're live.

Yeah. I love it. No, that's great. Oh, well, everyone should go and have a listen to Stop Everything. So thank you. And I'll stop everything now. That's the end of the episode. Thanks so much, Claire. You've been listening to a podcast with me, Claire Tonti, and this week with Benjamin Law. For more from Ben, you can head to benjamin-law.com where there are links to all of his writing. You can also find his incredible SBS TV series on SBS that's called The Family Law. And he has a new TV show coming out, which is a bit top secret. We don't know much about it, but look out for that as well. Anything he does is always going to be interesting.

Waltzing the Dragon is also currently on ABC iView. It's got two parts, one with his mum, one with his dad. And I really recommend going to watch it for his story and for the delight that is Jenny Fang, but also for the history of the Chinese culture within Australia. It's a fascinating watch and I learned so much. All right, that's it from me this week. I've been Claire Tonti. You can find me at clairetonti.com or on Instagram at Claire Tonti, where I occasionally like to tell stories over

there. Not a huge social media person, but I am over there sometimes. And if you like this show, bloody rate, review and subscribe for us wouldn't you it would just do me the biggest favor and send this episode to a friend if you enjoyed it if you got something out of it that just helps me so much and that's my favorite way to find new podcasts when a mate recommends me one i also do a show called suggestible that comes out every thursday with my husband man james where we recommend things for you to watch read and to. And don't we all need more of that in this strange alternate reality we're living in where we're constantly at home? That comes out every Thursday.

It's suggestible and it's a lot of fun. We make fun of each other a lot and have a really good laugh. It's one of my favourite times in the week. As always, thank you to Raw Collings for editing this week's episode and I'll see you next Tuesday. I only just did care to me that that was a bit awkward. Oh, well, I'll see you then. Bye.