Tony Mantor: Why Not Me ? - Keshawn Williams Mission : Breaking Stereotypes in Mental Health

Starting point is 00:00:06 Welcome to Why Not Me, embracing autism and mental health worldwide, hosted by Tony Mantor. Broadcasting from the heart of Music City, USA, Nashville, Tennessee. Join us as our guests share their raw, howful stories. Some will spark laughter, others will move you to tears. These real-life journeys inspire, connect, and remind you that. you're never alone. We're igniting a global movement to empower everyone to make a lasting difference by fostering deep awareness, unwavering acceptance, and profound understanding of autism and mental health. Tune in, be inspired, and join us in transforming the world one story at a time.

Starting point is 00:01:03 Hi, I'm Tony Mantor. Welcome to Why Not Me, embracing autism and mental health worldwide. Joining us today is Kishon Williams. He's a dedicated and inspiring advocate for mental health and trauma-informed care. As a graduate student pursuing a master's in social work with a focus on individual and family clinical practice, he is on a mission to become a trauma-focused psychotherapist. His deep interest in the intersection of serious mental illness, trauma, and substance use disorder drives his commitment to providing therapeutic support. Drawing from his undergraduate experience in community corrections,

Starting point is 00:01:45 he brings a unique perspective on the complex challenges faced by individuals in the criminal justice system. He will share his passion for creating safe, healing spaces, and advancing mental health care for all. So before we dive into our episode, we'll be back with an uninterrupted show right after a word from our sponsors. Discovering exceptional talent for your team

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Starting point is 00:03:07 Thanks for coming on. No problem. Thank you for having me. Oh, it's my pleasure. Before we start, why don't you give us a little information about yourself and what you're doing now? Sure. So I guess I'll give a little bit of a background. So, like, I've always had a strong desire to help those who were overlooked or disregarded by society.

Starting point is 00:03:27 I remember one time in high school, there was a classmate that had some type of condition. I'm not sure whether it was like a brain injury or autoimmune disease, but she would, like, give sass and act out and everybody would kind of let her get away with it. So I remember a time in English class during freshman year where we were doing a gamer of some sort and she was giving sass. I gave it right back and her aide pulled me aside and thanked me like I thought I was going to get in trouble. But she knew me for just treating her like a regular human being like for just simply engaging with her like another human being and we became good friends after that. So I guess that's just to give a little bit of a background. That's a great story. Now did you stay

Starting point is 00:04:07 in contact with her moving forward? I have kept in contact. We did lose contact towards the end of undergrad. I think, I'm not sure what happened there, but I know I deleted Facebook, so we kind of just lost a little bit of contact there. I believe she's still doing well. Sure, that's great. Now, tell us more. What led you to continue what you're doing now? Sure. So let's see, I began my undergraduate studies as a pre-veterinary major. But that changed when I had a chemistry teacher who had a distracting sentence filler, which made me switch my major to avoid failing. And due to my mom being a probation officer, I was inspired to study criminal justice with a focus on community corrections. So that led to an internship with the New Jersey State Parole Board, which is where I first

Starting point is 00:04:53 interacted with people of different cognitive levels and mental illnesses, and also with various criminal charges ranging from like assault to sex offenses. I also helped recently released individuals prepare for their GED and took part in an inside outside prison exchange program where I would visit the jail every other week to attend class alongside incarcerated individuals. Now those experiences made me want to go to law school, but to become like a criminal family attorney. But due to like some personal and family issues, my plans for law school changed. So instead I became an assistant director of therapeutic recreation at a nursing home where I interacted with elderly or geriatric individuals facing various cognitive issues and mental illnesses like dementia, bipolar,

Starting point is 00:05:39 schizophrenia. And now in the midst of that, due to like a divine intervention, I was led to a rescue mission, which like helped me get my life back on track and discover my true purpose, which I'm happy that they kind of invested alongside me, which is where I'm now in a clinical MSW program, where I've been able to recognize gaps in services. There's like a vast amount of other encounters and being able to kind of reflect on my past experiences and every job that I've had, which kind of came together and strengthened and emphasized by interest in helping people with serious mental illness, trauma, and substance use disorders. So I have this desire to not only serve these individuals, but also advocate for better services, improve treatment outcomes, and breaking the unfortunate negative

Starting point is 00:06:24 stereotypes and stigmas that still exist. Yes, that's so very. true. There's just so much out there. So how did you continue? So with everything that came together, it's like I kind of know that this is like a God-given purpose because I originally thought it was random, but I've recently learned that I've had family members on both sides that battled with serious mental illness and brain injuries. So like this goal to become a clinical social worker and a clinical and forensic psychologist and like providing a true holistic approach to care and desire for research and advocacy shows that this has been a calling from the beginning because if it was up to me, I would have been a veterinarian or a probation officer or a lawyer. So are you working for a company now?

Starting point is 00:07:08 If you are, can you explain how that's helping you get to where your ultimate goals are? So I currently interned for two places as I'm wrapping up my first year of my own employment SW program. So I can't necessarily give the names of the organizations due to like liability. issues. Sure, that's understandable. The one program is the rescue mission that I mentioned a little bit earlier, which is like an emergency shelter and a life-changing substance abuse program for men. And then the other is a program within a community mental health center where I'm under the supervision of a woman who has an extensive history in working with individuals in the criminal justice system. Okay, that's great. Now, you say you're in school for MSW. Can you explain what that is,

Starting point is 00:07:56 for all the listeners that might not understand all the acronyms. This is sure, of course. I know it was hard for me at the beginning, too. So MSW stands for Masters in Social Work. Okay. So you can either do, with the Masters of Social Work, there's a macro track, there's a mezzo track, and then there's also a micro or clinical track.

Starting point is 00:08:16 So you could either focus on policy or you could focus on, let's say, being like a program director or a clinical, which would be sitting the one-on-one with individuals who have serious, mental illness or individuals facing domestic violence or family and children, things of that nature. Okay. So what are your goals? You just brought up two or three different scenarios. So which one do you see yourself fitting into? So me, I have always been the individual that I hate to be

Starting point is 00:08:45 restricted by like confines of one avenue. So that's kind of where the goal of like finishing the clinical social work. And then I'm also taking prerequisites in psychology courses. to meet the standards for a doctoral program to become a clinical and forensic psychologist, too. So being able to sit with individuals who have serious or persistent mental illness, trauma, or substance use disorder, and the avenues in which they all intersect. So like addiction treatment facilities in the criminal justice system, whether it's jails or prisons, and even shelters in that nature. So being able to do research or improve, like, the treatment outcomes and do kind of just provide care,

Starting point is 00:09:26 within the whole atmosphere, whether that be case management, long-term work with individuals in psychotherapy, or just educating different programs and how to provide the care within their scope of care. Because I know a lot of people think, oh, it's serious mental illness. We can't handle medication or medication adherence or that's somebody else's problem. But once you have that education and that knowledge and you don't have that stigma towards it, you can realize that there's a lot more that your program can do. Okay, that makes sense. Now, is this the first year that you're doing this going to school?

Starting point is 00:10:07 This is my first year with this focus, yes. So how many more years do you have to get where you want to be? What degree are you shooting for now? So I'm currently going for my master's. I have one out of two years I'm finishing up right now. Okay. So then another year to sit for the, clinical, well, the master's social work licensure, which gives you a provisional license to sit with

Starting point is 00:10:31 individuals in therapy, and then two years of 3,000 hours of supervision and sitting with individuals to sit for clinical licensure as an LCSW, so a licensed clinical social worker. And then at that time, I intend to apply for side Ds, which are doctorates in psychology programs. Okay, so this is kind of like continuing education for the rest of your life. I'm very much so. Okay, so what's your goal? I mean, you've got three or four more years of schooling just to get close to where you want to be. So where do you see yourself in three to five years?

Starting point is 00:11:07 What's your goals for that range of time? I mean, Lord willing, I would say the ultimate goal is to finish the schooling, get all the supervisory hours out of the way, and kind of establish a, whether it's private practice or just an organization or be contracted with programs to really provide this full comprehensive care because one of the issues or gaps and services that I see is kind of what we were talking about a little bit earlier with the passing of the buck. So somebody says, you know, this person here has schizophrenia and they also have a substance use disorder. But because of the schizophrenia or because of the bipolar disorder, we can't really provide that care or we can't take this medication. I kind of want to come in there and say,

Starting point is 00:11:50 hey, you can take, depending on the medication or depending on the, let's say, the amount of the medication, let's five milligrams is completely different from 500 milligrams. And if it's a non-seditive, you're not going to see these, I think a lot of people are scared of acute psychosis or these manic episodes. And if somebody's managing this stuff and you're able to sit there or even collaborate across different spectrums, we can provide that individual the care that they need. so they're not left to wander the streets or they're not left to wind up in the criminal justice system if they've already burnt the bridges with their family and can't return there. Okay, so you brought up that one girl that you treated normal.

Starting point is 00:12:32 So that is one example that led you to another path, which led you to what you're doing now. Are there other instances that happen to come in front of you that just happened to be? there that kind of confirmed and opened the door to, yeah, this is what I'm going to do. A hundred percent. I think one funny thing is there's, I remember being at work one time and this coworker is sitting there like, he comes to me and he's like, you're the guy that puts the food out on the back porch and you're the reason all the stray cats in the town are on your back porch there. And it's like to, I don't know if that was intended to be like an insult or like kind of like a little dig, but sitting back on reflecting on it, it's like, okay, why not feed the stray cats?

Starting point is 00:13:27 Why not just, you know, kick them away and provide it? Like that's a strength more than it is a weakness. Absolutely. Helping people is never a weakness. And if you have the right perspective, you know, and I think that's another thing that kind of highlighted it because it's like here are people who. let's say are scared to interact with individuals or have this preconceived notion. And it's like, why not be curious? Why not sit down with the individual who's there for shelter or the person who's in the middle of the park that you kind of look down upon? If you get to know their story,

Starting point is 00:14:01 they're literally just another human being. Absolutely. And that's a tremendously good way to look at it so that you can help others that just need it. It's like there's, that's not something to be scared of. that's something to lean into and truly just help and be there. If I can, I think there was another instance where I think I was sitting with a client and he's telling me his approach to treatment or looking at it. Looking at treatment, you see, it's like having somebody pinching you 24-7 and the professional sitting in front of you telling you to take your medication and use these coping skills to deal with the pinching,

Starting point is 00:14:36 but what he really wants and needs is somebody to beat up the guy pinching them and making it stop. So if we're, especially as clinicians, approaching it in a way of not looking at the individual in front of us of a holistic picture, a negative aspect. Like, if I can, I'll go into just a little bit. So I'm a part of this psychology reading group. I guess like shout out to Dr. Ducing of Integrative DBT and Psychotherapy and Pennsylvania who organized it. And one of our recent articles that we read was preserving our humanity as therapists by Nancy McWilliams of Rutgers University. And this article was published, I believe, in 2005.

Starting point is 00:15:12 So it's sad that this theme still kind of applies today 20 years later. Yes, unfortunately, I see where many things 20 years later are still very relevant today. So what stood out to you about it? I think the theme that stood out to me that she discusses was how clinicians as a profession from the beginning are inherently subversive. But they've recently taken on this role of being a technician opposed to a healer. And it's like we sit with our clients in sessions and hear about these gaps or ruptures in these services or programs that are affecting them in a negative way. And the question becomes, are we going to return to our original nature of our profession that psychotherapist should be trying to understand and mend the broken heart or heal the tortured soul or promote the acceptance of painful realities? Or instead, are we going to continue to medicate, manage, control, and curb the understandable behavior of these people who are suffering just because they're quote, end quote,

Starting point is 00:16:06 quote, societal, irrational behavior, which is like inconvenient for the larger culture. So if you get into the clinical part, are you still seeing yourself advocating on the legislative part as well? Oh, 100%. Because I think somebody asked me one time, if you plan on pursuing becoming a psychologist, why would you still pursue the social work program? And I'm like, because I feel a lot of people when it comes to being a psychologist or being clinical, kind of like the basis of this question is like you think just clinical wise or you think just research and there's this gap between research and providing actual therapy and sitting with these clients and I think the important part is combining the two because if you're able to really look at the whole

Starting point is 00:16:53 picture in a holistic image you're able to address what's putting the client in front of you what are these social determinants of health how to really help them because you can provide all the CBT, you can provide all the coping skills in the world. But if this individual is still homeless, or if this individual still doesn't have a livelihood or a job or something to live or hope towards, they're going to come back to you. And it's going to be this just recidivism factor. Yeah, it's starting out in one spot, moving forward, getting to a point, and then all of sudden falling back. And unfortunately, you're right back to where you started. What's your plan on breaking that cycle? I've talked with many.

Starting point is 00:17:34 legislators, judges, you name it. Everyone has a great idea, a lot of them are very similar, different approaches. What's your approach? How would you change this? My approach, and one of the main things I'd hope to take away from this, would be to pretty much just educate the systems that are already in place, because we have a lot of legislators, as you said, and people who are implementing these assisted outpatient treatment facilities and programs. And we have, like, I'm part of the National Shattering Science Coalition. So we're advocating for IMD exclusion and increasing beds and also the co-response teams and CIT trainings. So we are implementing all of these programs, but let's also at the same time strengthen these programs that are already in place and educating

Starting point is 00:18:25 the individuals who are working there who may be just, thinking, like, we need to stop waiting for someone else to fix the issue or pass in the buck. We need to start thinking, if not us, then who? Not as like a martyr, but from an approach of how can we help more? Because if you truly look at the laws and stipulations that are already governing a lot of these programs, they can do slightly more and different work. And this is not to call out a specific program or say that they have bad staff, but to shed light on the fact that the entire system and a lot of these various programs can already do a lot in place, but may be choosing not to or don't have the staff equipped to do it because they're not tapping into

Starting point is 00:19:05 that potential that's there. Sure. I just spoke with a lady just last week. Her husband was just getting out of jail. She's become an advocate for prison reform. She said the biggest problem that she's coming across, she's going to legislators and senators and taking it all the way to Washington, the unforeseen circumstance that most people wouldn't know about, that is the laws are there. The problem? They're not being enforced. So we have to figure a way to get the laws that have already been passed to be enforced and

Starting point is 00:19:43 worked on so people know about it. Because when that kind of issue falls through the cracks, it hurts the people that we're trying to help. Yes, indeed. It's like there's, I think there was one bill that was passed or put on play. I think there was one bill that was introduced to Congress. And it's like trying to provide funding for the Bureau of Prisons, states and localities to carry out mental health screenings and provide referrals to mental health care providers for individuals

Starting point is 00:20:15 in prisoner jail. For example, one of the programs that I intern with, which I hope I can say, is like, I think it fits the bill of one of those programs. And so we have these programs that are there, but providing funding to expand them or bringing awareness to what's actually there. I think I listened to one of your podcasts with one of the other NSSC National Shining Science Coalition colleagues who is stating that a lot of individuals who are in these positions need to join groups of people who have been through the process or have been through the system before. because a lot of these things are there, but the education and awareness of it isn't there. And when you're going through the situation, you're having all this energy arouse in you, and you can't make proper decisions.

Starting point is 00:21:02 But having a grounded support system, you're able to navigate and help your loved one who's going through this situation to give a better outcome than there. It's like being aware of what's truly there. Yeah, there's a lot of issues that need to be addressed. Of course, one big one is funding. It seems like everyone I speak with says it was going fine, but now all of a sudden funding has dried up some. So that's a key issue. When the funding drives up, of course it hurts the people that we're trying to help.

Starting point is 00:21:34 I think a key thing that we have to change is perception. I'm trying to use that word instead of the word stigma. I think the word stigma has kind of a negative connotation to it. So let's change that perception. An example of that, if someone's walking along and they see someone that's homeless, they have a perception of what they think it is. In reality, it's probably nowhere's near what they thought. So it's a tough thing that we have to do,

Starting point is 00:22:03 but we do have to take and change the perception so people can get more help that they desperately need. It really is. I love that you said changing the word from stigma to perception. Because I think one of the things that I've noticed, too, among like some of the journeys that I've been in with different internships and different areas and interacting with different people, it's all about how you present information. So you could have somebody who has that negative perception, but the minute you mentioned homeless or let's say you're talking to a radical conservative and you say the word woke or,

Starting point is 00:22:37 you know, liberal or something of that nature, their ears immediately turn off and the conversations ended. So every intention that you had of helping, let's say, the population are advocating, it's It's moot at that point. So being able to change that perception and knowing how to present information in a way that the individual that you're speaking to actually listens and digest the information is of the utmost important. Yeah. So what do you think is important that the listeners hear? We've talked about a lot of things, things that are very important.

Starting point is 00:23:10 So what do you think that they need to hear that is important for them to understand of what your, trying to do and what you're trying to accomplish. That is a really good question. I think I would say that if everybody, if anybody takes anything, it's to advocate and educate and educate. And no matter whether you're, you know, the small intern on the bottom of the totem pole or you're a family member or your client yourself going through it, I think being able to, as we were just stating, present information to individuals and educate them in a way that they're not caught off guard or defensive is the best way. So like, for example, educating people and addiction facility staff on anisagnosia or lack of insight, as it's called, or medications and medication adherence or

Starting point is 00:24:04 associated behaviors and side effects that come with it, or advocating for a program to actually accept clients on medications within their limits of their scope of care, but kind of like we were talking about earlier, letting them know that, okay, just because you're on a antipsychotic or psychotropic medication doesn't necessarily mean that you're actively going through psychosis or you're going to be a quote-unquote non-compliant individual because they just kind of want, I've seen a lot of programs kind of just want things to go as simple as possible, but able to present that information in a way that they digest it, meditate on it, and really think about, okay, we can do this. And being known that it's within their grasp and it's not somebody else's

Starting point is 00:24:50 duty like in a hospital because as we know, these hospitals are out of beds and they have no space. So we are the individuals that unfortunately need to kind of buck up and recognize what our limits actually are, what is within our grasp and how we can best help individuals and not expect to somebody else to kind of pick up the slack. Yeah, it's very tough because the people that have their ideas don't have any lived experience with it. Lots of times you'll find that these people get all the information that they need,

Starting point is 00:25:26 they can read through it, they can form their opinions, but they really can't absorb it all that much because they haven't lived it. Only the people that are giving it to them lots of times have lived it and they have to get through to them And it's just a tough situation. Very tough. I think that's one of the hardest, hardest walls that I've hit throughout my experiences

Starting point is 00:25:49 because the people that are in these positions of power and make all these decisions don't have that relative leg. And that's what's so important to be able to have them open up their ears and listen to the people that do have these lived experiences and know best. Like it's like you can't be in this industry claiming to be trauma informed and provide all these beneficial services, but not truly hold space for these individuals and expect, you know, like an ideal client or a perfect situation. And it's like recovery, trauma and rehabilitation is messy and it's certainly not a linear

Starting point is 00:26:23 process. The reality is that compassion requires consistency. So the clients may not necessarily be non-compliant or difficult. You're just simply just not wanting to give them a chance and really hold space to do that work. Yeah. I was talking with a state legislator. the good thing about discussing that with her

Starting point is 00:26:42 is she had the lived experience. So because of that, she was successful in getting it across in the legislation to take to the Senate. Unfortunately, when it got to the Senate, the bill died. Now it's going to take several months in order to get it back in front of the Senate and the House again.

Starting point is 00:27:05 So unfortunately, that's the issue we have with the representatives that ultimately represent us is because they have a limited experience or understanding of it, they might not put that as a high priority to something that's in front of them that they may know a little better. So because of that, the things that are important with mental illness sometimes get pushed back, and that's very unfortunate. It's if I, I think that's one of the biggest lessons that I hope I love. and relatively soon because even sometimes being, I think I worked at a Christian facility once. And I know there's like this big underlying theme depending on where you are, where they don't

Starting point is 00:27:51 believe that mental health is a thing. And unless you've had like you were stating somebody in your family or a family member who's gone through it or a friend who's had a kid have to deal with it, it's almost as if it's non-existent. And it's not just in religious spaces, but even in secular spaces as well. And it's like, if you truly want to be a good person or replicate the characteristics of, you know, whatever God you serve, you should really sit there with an open ear and provide the care that a lot of the times you state that you do. I mean, to get state funding a lot of the times you claim to do all these services, but are you truly applying them? And I think being able to provide those real live lived experiences, especially if it's somebody that's close to them or somebody that is a trusted

Starting point is 00:28:40 staff member or somebody that's worked with them for a long time. They may be more receptive to hearing what actually goes into the care that they may need to improve upon or enhance. Yeah, exactly. Unfortunately, there's no magic wand that we can wave that will fix this. It's going to take a lot of people, a lot of time, a lot of effort, a lot of hours. to get this across to the people that can hopefully help those that really require the needed help as soon as they can get it. Yes, indeed. I was like, it's something that I, and I think I feel comfortable in saying this,

Starting point is 00:29:20 that's something that I pray for almost every night. I was like personally with, like, faith, I pray that people's eyes are opened. The veil is lifted and people's hearts are softened to truly seeing the pain that is out there and what work is like sitting right in front of us that we're able to do to provide the care to these individuals. And I think that's a lot of the passion that drives what I'm pursuing because it's there. It's there for the grasping. It's like, you know, a horse with a sugar cube in front of it. Like, if you reach your neck out a little bit, I'm pretty sure they can grab it, but they don't know that. But if you're like chasing it and pursuing it, it's like that's something that I want to be able to

Starting point is 00:30:00 provide and help people recognize that they can do it as well. And whether it's me or somebody else and they hear this and take that idea and start their own thing, I'm happy that the work just gets done. I don't have to be the individual to do it. Yeah, sure. It's a team effort. That's good. Well, this has been great. Good conversation, good information. I really appreciate you taking the time to join us today. I appreciate you having me. I think it's a blessing just to have my voice heard from the little things that I've recognized and witnessed throughout my time. Oh, it's been my pleasure. Thanks again. Thanks for taking time out of your busy schedule to listen to our show today.

Starting point is 00:30:47 We hope you enjoyed it as much as we enjoyed bringing it to you. If you know someone who has a story to share, tell them to contact us at why not me. dot world. One last thing, spread the word about why not me. Our conversations, our inspiring guests, this show you are not alone in this world.

Tony Mantor: Why Not Me ? - Keshawn Williams Mission : Breaking Stereotypes in Mental Health

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