Tony Mantor: Why Not Me ? - Sheriff Donna Buckley:How One Sheriff is Reducing Recidivism Through Compassion

Episode Date: May 26, 2025

Send us a text Sheriff Donna Buckley shares her journey from attorney to becoming the first female sheriff in Barnstable County's 333-year history, along with her innovative approach to transforming incarceration through mental health support, comprehensive case management, and post-release services. • Buckley's background as legal counsel representing public employees, including police officers and educators • How the prevalence of mental health issues and addiction in jails inspired her to run for sheriff • The role of Barnstable County Sheriff's Office in managing the jail, criminal investigations, and emergency services • Jails functioning as "de facto mental health and addiction treatment" facilities due to lack of proper infrastructure • Implementation of a case management model to ensure personalized support for every incarcerated individual • Training corrections officers in mental health first aid and cognitive behavioral therapy • The newly opened Bridge Center that provides comprehensive post-release support services • Development of specialized programming for women that addresses their unique needs • Success stories of individuals breaking the cycle of recidivism through proper support and resources • Sheriff Buckley's philosophy: "The best way to keep the public safe is to make sure that when people leave our jails, they don't come back" To learn more about Sheriff Buckley's approach or to share your story, visit TonyMantor.com and click on Contact.   https://tonymantor.com https://Facebook.com/tonymantor https://instagram.com/tonymantor https://twitter.com/tonymantor https://youtube.com/tonymantormusic intro/outro music bed written by T. Wild Why Not Me the World music published by Mantor Music (BMI) The content on Why Not Me: Embracing Autism amd Mental Health Worldwide, including discussions on mental health, autism, and related topics, is provided for informational and entertainment purposes only. The views and opinions expressed by guests are their own and do not reflect those of the podcast, its hosts, or affiliates.Why Not Me is not a medical or mental health professional and does not endorse or verify the accuracy, efficacy, safety of any treatments, programs, or advice discussed.Listeners should consult qualified healthcare professionals, such as licensed therapists, psychologists, or physicians, before making decisions about mental health or autism- related care.Reliance on this podcast's contents is at the listener's own risk. Why Not Me is not liable for any outcomes, financial or otherwise, resulting from actions taken based on the information provided. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Welcome to Why Not Me The World Podcast, hosted by Tony Mantor. Broadcasting from Music City, USA, Nashville, Tennessee. Join us as our guests tell us their stories. Some will make your laugh, some will make you cry. Real life people who will inspire and show that you are not alone in this world. hopefully you gain more awareness, acceptance, and a better understanding for autism around the world. Hi, I'm Tony Mayantor. Welcome to Why Not Me the World, Humanity Over Handcuffs, the Silent Crisis Special Event. Joining us today is Sheriff Donna Buckley. She has proudly served as Barnstable County Sheriff since January 4th, 20203.

She's the first female sheriff in Barnsville County's 33-year history. She began her career as the in-house counsel from the National Association of Government Employees, International Brotherhood of Police Officers. After running her law office for nine years, she worked at the Massachusetts Teachers Association, delivering legal services to the members of the Teachers Union in the areas of collective bargaining, grievances, arbitrations, and employment disputes. She also taught criminal law and related courses, and in 2018, became the General Counsel for the Barnstable County Sheriff's Office. After that, she ran for Sheriff and won. She's here to tell us her story and what a story it is. Thanks for coming on.

Well, thank you for having me. Important conversations. Well, it's my pleasure, and yes, very important conversation. Can you give us a little background and more about your journey on becoming sheriff of your county? It's sort of a non-traditional path to. being sheriff. I've spent my entire career as an attorney. And in 2018, I accepted a job as general counsel for the Barnes Stable County Sheriff's Office. In that position, I had an opportunity to see both what was happening inside the sheriff's office, as well as be part of one of the major

criminal justice reform legislation that was passed in Massachusetts in 2018. And think about, you sort of how that was going to be implemented, what other sheriff's offices were doing and what we were doing. And so through that work, lots of discussion about recidivism, lots of discussion about mental health and addiction being the primary reason that people are in jail. And when the current sheriff indicated that he was going to retire, there was only one candidate who stepped forward. And that candidate didn't, in my view, seemed to share the priorities that were necessary to address what was. happening in the criminal justice system, which was the prevalence of addiction and mental health in people who are incarcerated and a lack of recognition for the fact that a lack of services, pre-incarceration, pre-criminal behavior is what led a lot of people to spiral into the criminal justice

system. So it was one of those put up or shut up moments where you know, you can't complain about the way things are going if you're not willing to do something. And I was at a point in my life where I was like, you know what, I have a responsibility to have a conversation with the community about what we could be doing at the sheriff's office, especially in relation to incarceration. So I ran with the purpose of having that conversation and giving people an option. Other sheriff's offices in Massachusetts and throughout the state were realizing that we needed to not just lock people up and then let them out when their time's up. So we had the conversation and upset of upsets I want.

Well, some things are just meant to be. What was your legal expertise? Was it defense or prosecution? What was the transition for you from legal to sheriff? Well, here, no, actually, I spent my career before I came to the sheriff's office representing public employees. So I represented police officers, firefighters, public school educators. So I actually sat on the employee side of the table for probably 90% of the job. of my career. But I will say this. No matter what side of the table you're on, it is the employees

who do the work. And unless we support them and value the work that we do, we can't provide the services that we need to provide. Sure. That makes sense. Now, as I understand it, in your county, the sheriff doesn't actually do a lot of patrolling, if any at all. The sheriff actually maintains the jail system. Can you expand on how that works for your particular area? It is. And it's interesting as you talk to sheriffs throughout the country because actually even within the state, each of us is different, which is the beauty of the office. So in Barnstable, we run the jail, which includes lockups, so pre-arrayment, pre-trial and sentence. We house both males and females. We run a Bureau of Criminal Investigation, which is crime scene and

investigations, which supports the police departments throughout Barnstable County. We run an emergency 911 communication center, which provides emergency communications for most of the towns in Barnstable County. And we are a significant member of the regional law enforcement council. So we provide, we have a canine unit, we have a drone unit, we have SWAT, people who participate in SWAT and hostage negotiation and search and rescue, human trafficking. So we work side by side with the local police departments, but in Barnes Stable County, there is no need for us to also be police patrol officers because every town has their own police department. So for us to do that work, which we could, but for us to do that, it would be redundant, and I don't think a good use

of taxpayer money. Okay. Now, it's amazing that you bring that up. I have spoken with several judges around the country, and we all seem to come back to funding paid by taxpayers. Many judges are trying to divert the people that come in front of them with serious mental illness away from the prison system because they find that that usually means the prison is actually being in the hospital, and that's not what it was intended to be. By doing this, it can potentially save the taxpayers hundreds of thousands of dollars, if not millions, in incarceration fees. Now, with that being said, how do you see this working within the system that you do every day? You know, that would be the ideal. If we didn't have to incarcerate people,

that would certainly be ideal. But there's so many factors that we need to think about, in the reality that we live today. First of all, the lack of mental health and addiction services that exist right now is one of the reasons why we have people spiraling into jail, because we have no place else to put them. That's a tragedy. It's a tragedy because people who, especially people who are having a mental health crisis, it's not a surprise that they act unlawfully.

But we don't have the infrastructure left because we closed all of the residential treatment facilities back in the 80s, you don't have the beds or the providers to provide that service in advance to prevent someone from getting into a crisis. So I frequently say our jails, not just mine, but the jails in Massachusetts, the jails across the country, are de facto mental health and addiction treatment. Yeah, I've heard that said many times. Now, that said, if we had the appropriate infrastructure to keep people supported who need support. They've committed crimes. They need something more than just go off and don't do it again. If we had those infrastructures in place, then ideally we could not put people in jail. Although there are also circumstances where people need a time

out. They need to be separated from the community. They need the time to understand what they did, be held accountable, and figure out what the next chapter looks like. So I think in Massachusetts right now, what we're seeing is that our sheriffs are remarkably amazingly filling two needs. One, we are keeping people in custody who need to be in custody. For those people who there is no other option, people that are here, we are providing the medical and mental health services. We are providing the supports. We are giving people the tools or starting that work. And I can speak for myself here, but I know there are other sheriff's offices as well. who are understanding that that work is a continuum. It doesn't just happen while people are incarcerated.

It has to continue post-release. As sheriffs, we have the infrastructure because we have them within our facilities. So we are able to seamlessly provide that support post-release. And we have seen some amazing examples of that working, especially for people with mental health challenges. All right. So it seems to me from speaking with the various people that I've spoken with, that if the sheriffs, the legislators, the judges, everybody that's involved within the legal system was to get together and sit down with the legislators and say, look, we have a problem here. We need to tell them we can send the families here one by one or we can collectively get them together. But we have a problem. And you have a problem. And you have a problem. And you have a problem. have the power to collectively change that? Common sense tells me that the people that have the power could get together form a way of fixing this and helping for everyone involved. How am I missing this point? I don't think you're missing it. I think that I've had conversations with legislators about the fact that there are physical facilities that need to be in place, provide

services for people, especially for mental health services. And it's a non-starter. While everybody will pay lip service to the fact that it was the worst public policy decision in the history of the world to close all the mental health residential mental health facilities, nobody is willing to step forward and say we need new ones. So I'm not giving up on that conversation. Not only do we need facilities for people to be safe and for the public to be safe that are not jails, but we also need services.

We need access to providers. In Barnesville County right now, our, quote, access for people who don't have the ability to private pay their way through, three to six to nine months to see someone. That's not access. And financially, insurance is a huge issue. So there's so many places along the spectrum that this is broken. But at the same time, I can speak for myself as sheriff and say,

I'm not waiting. I'm not willing to let write people off until we get this system straightened out. So we have stepped forward here in Barnstable. We parted ways with a private medical and mental health vendor and brought our own staff inside. We are retraining our staff. They're all trained in mental health first aid. They're trained in cognitive behavioral therapy. We're working specifically on increasing the ability of our staff to interact with the population. that we have. We're going to be hosting in September a training that includes a focus on autism and a focus on correctional behavioral health workers because that's the job we're asking them to do. So we have to train them for that. We're seeing success. And maybe if the answer to the question that

you have is that we rethink, I don't think the jail facility itself is the best place to hold people, but if the work that we can do is checking off all the boxes, then that's a good thing. Yeah. Now, the unfortunate part is some of these jails, prisons, they have some people that are very bad people in it. They don't have serious mental illness, autism, or anything. They're just bad people in general. So unfortunately, sometimes you have situations where all these people get put into the general population, then you have the worst of the worst, you have autistic people, serious mental illness, you've got all them together, and that's a bad mix. What's the best way to handle something like that? So you are 100% right. I'll talk specifically about Barnstable.

One of the things that we instituted when I became sheriff in January of 23 was a case management model. So now every person who's in our facility has a case manager and everyone has an assessment. That helps us figure out placement. It helps us figure out classification. We also, as a rule, have a separate housing unit for, I call them high profile, more serious types of cases. That's not part of a general population unit. And then we really do our best to meet people where they're at, whether it's an orientation unit or a programming unit or different levels of programming or special management, we are making sure that we are not putting people in worse positions through the experience of coming through the jail. So that is a primary effort on

our part. I don't know. The model that you described to me is sort of that stereotypical state prison model where, you know, everybody's here and everybody's figure it out. That is not how we operate. Okay. Now, let's focus on your deputies. How are they trained and how they incorporated in the changes that you have been trying to make? So we actually call them corrections officers. Okay. Those are the security staff who work in-house. And actually, that's who I was referring to when I talked about who we are training to deal

with the population. So mental health first aid was the first thing that we did. We've already put one cohort through and we're working on the rest to make sure all of our staff have cognitive behavioral therapy training. We're going to be hosting. It is correctional behavioral health training and certification. so that we'll be hosting that in the fall. You know, we're asking people who are signing up to be security officers

to be medical and mental health workers at the same time. And what's interesting is that a lot of people are interested in that job. We are getting a lot of people. It used to be a correction officer until I can get hired as a police officer. That's not the track anymore. We are getting people with social work backgrounds, with human service backgrounds, who want to come in and make a difference.

The difference that they're making is in public safety because we are able to impact people while we have them. The better shot they have in the outside and the better we can deliver on public safety and reduce recidivism. There's a judge down in Miami. He's opened up a 218,000 square foot facility that incorporates everything that people need. I think he focuses more on serious mental illness than anything else, but that's his priority. the facility's got dental, it's got medical, it's got beds. It seems like it's a really good situation for those that need help. He also says that by doing this, the judicial system and the court system sees less repeat offenders.

So it kind of sounds like you are doing almost the same thing as he is. It's what we, yes, it's what we need to be doing. And the only physical facilities, unfortunately, that we have are jails. Right. You know, the number of beds, I think, right now, hang on one second, I have a statistic for you. In 1999, we had 1170 beds. Today, we have less than 700. Wow. We don't have less sick people. We actually have more sick people. Right, right.

COVID did a number on our youth, and we're starting to see that as they become adults. Our world is a very mean, cruel, tough place to live. Full of anxiety. It's full of damages from social. media. We're seeing people struggling that would never be in that category before. Right. And of course, we need to be concerned about the youth that's between 17 and 25 with serious mental illness, because that seems to be the age group that that's most common in. So how do you incorporate this all together? I mean, you've got a bigger, wider world of people. You're not just dealing with one type of person. And of course, there's no way of making everybody happen. And, of course,

there's no way of making everybody happy because that's just totally impossible. So how do you get people look at this and say, whoa, this is working? So I look at the work that we do here in sort of three spaces. We have a really robust youth program. We work with both sort of mainstream youth as well as at-risk youth. We do it through a summer program. We do it through school vacation weeks. Because if we can build and develop relationships with kids,

especially kids who are at risk and keep those relationships going, maybe it's less likely they spiral into the system. Then we look at the work that we do while we have people in our custody. The age-old choices, they can sit here and do their time, and then we let them out and we've met our responsibility, but we know that doesn't make us safe. So we look at the work that we do here is to try to figure out individually. What is each person need?

Do they need education? Do they need vocational training? Do they need medical and mental health services? do they need addiction treatment? Do they need a combination of all of those things? And we start that work the day they walk in the door here. And then the third place that we are trying to impact public safety is when people are released. So actually just last Friday, we opened, it's called the Bridge Center,

understanding that the most consequential thing that we do at the sheriff's office is let someone out. Because that is the place where they're either going to move into the positive territory or revert back to negative behavior. And there's a victim. There's victims. There's harm that results if people revert back to negative behavior. So we have to figure out how to support people post-release from the minute they walk out the door when they are at their most vulnerable.

And our community is at its most vulnerable when someone is released. So the bridge center is a one-stop shop, an opportunity for us to tie together all the amazing resources that exist in our community, all that the person being released needs to know is they need to go one place. Do they need help with a job? Do they need help with housing? Do they need food? Do they need transportation? Do they need mentors? Do they need to go to a meeting? Do they need a support group? And there's community partners who have been knocking on our door wanting to work with us in this space. Now we have actually a physical facility that brings all of this together. It's impossible for someone like me to navigate all of the services that we have. I don't know about

all of them. Imagine if you're the person getting out of jail who doesn't, many times a penny to your name, may not even have a ride. You know, that's all the work we try to do while people are here, but it's got to sustain it. Yeah, absolutely. Now, when you were elected, how did the people that were there, accept what you wanted to do because you wanted to come in and make some changes. And as we know, most people in most places, the one thing they hate is change. Oh. So you refer to the staff. Yeah, that's right. I'm going to knock on wood, but the staff that work here are phenomenal. Maybe it's because I spent the majority of my time working with employees. And understanding that, first of all, you can never take them for granted.

And change, people have to be brought along. You don't force change on people. So we talked a lot. Everyone who worked here knew how I got elected and why I got elected. It was a very clear option A, option B campaign. So there was no question about what I was sent here to do. And ultimately, we work for the taxpayers. So I think having a clear vision, having a clear understanding,

and bringing them along with conversation, with the changes, making sure that their needs are met. They have all the information and that their first and foremost, especially in this work, their safety is paramount. Safety of the people who are incarcerated is paramount. Helping get to a point where we understand that we don't just do security. That's not why we exist because that doesn't make us safer. We do security so that we can do all of the other work. And it's been amazing. It's been absolutely transformative here. Now, the system that you inherited, it did not have some of the changes that you have going on now when you first came. Is that correct?

It did not. I mean, it was a system that was grounded in a very different philosophy. You brought up earlier that, you know, the forward-facing law enforcement patrol. This sheriff's office before I became sheriff was very much interested in that area. So it was a very different philosophy. We're actually doing a presentation next month for the AJA American Jail Association on something from nothing. So one of the examples of that is when I came on, we held women, but we didn't have any women's programming. So we developed from nothing women's programming, a women's therapeutic treatment program, which is designed to treat women. Women are offenders, but women are also victims, and women are also caretakers.

One day we did a statistic. We had 95 women who had 109 children. But you think about the collateral consequences to our public safety in the community when those women are incarcerated. Start to talk about generational incarceration because now those kids think incarceration is part of their future because that's what my mom did. That's what, you know, that's what's in my family. So we decided to work with focus programs specifically for women. And it came from nothing. Okay. So now we've covered a lot of things.

Every given. We've covered the people that work with you and for you. Now, what about the inmates themselves? Of course, there were some that were there before you got there. And then of course, you've got newer ones coming in. Did they see the differences that you brought? And I guess the ultimate question is, how did they adapt to the change? Can you give me a minute? Because I'm going to read you something that I received last week. Is that okay?

Sure. All right. Hang on one second. Yeah, sure. All right. So last week, I received a really long letter from a woman who went through our treatment program, women's treatment program. I'm not going to read the whole thing.

So she goes through and she thanks all of the different staff that she interact with. I'll redo this part. My family has made jokes that I came out of jail with friends, and that is true. I am still in touch with a few inmates, both current and released. Once I'm finished with parole, I'm hoping to see them in person. One thing I found out, the transition back into a normal life has not been as easy as I thought it would be. I have mentioned this to several people, including my parole and probation ladies. It would be not skipping parts.

It would be nice if there was some kind of a group for released inmates that just deals with transitioning back to life outside of jail. From finding a job to mental health, there's a five-month wait for therapy, to financial and credit help and to taking care of your physical health. There's a lot to think about and do. For me, there are days when it's hard to get motivated. I said to someone I could see why some people fall back into bad habits. Luckily, I did not have a drug and alcohol issue and I have a family that's there to support me, but it's still a tough road some days. So I truly just want to say thank you for making what could have been a real nightmare for me much more bearable. When people ask me what jail was like, they are surprised when I say it could have been much worse or it wasn't as bad as I thought it would be.

I used my time wisely and came out with a plan and with several books ready to go. I hope you continue your support of the women's program and if I can ever be of help, please let me know. Would you consider a program for released inmates I would be in even if I have to travel? So that's her words. Another example, we had someone who has been in custody in Barnstable County for the majority of his adult life, and he's probably in his 50s or 60s. He was here when I was here as general counsel. He was here when I came in as sheriff.

But through the work that we did, sort of refocusing instead of just housing that person, we worked with the Department of Mental Health. And it wasn't easy. but we were finally able, even though he was a client of the Department of Mental Health, they kept denying him services. So what we were able to do was to figure out, you know, how are we going to house this person? Anyway, the person had housing, the person finally had support, and stayed out of here for the longest time ever. Found himself back here recently, but then those charges were dismissed.

But the behavior, this person was a high-maintenance person, self-injurious. But that behavior didn't exist the last time they came back. And when the charges were dismissed, they had a stable place to go back to. So that's this kind of stuff that we be all the time. But we're working on it. Yeah, that's great. Well, this has been really good. Great information and information that people really need to hear.

I've had a lot of people come on my podcast. I don't believe I've had anyone that has focused on this part the system as you seem to be? Well, thank you. I'm, I, as you can tell, am passionate about this. I believe as a sheriff, our job is public safety. And the best way to keep the public safe is to make sure that when people leave our jails, they don't come back. Public isn't their next victim. That's why we do what we do. Do the work here to make sure that the people in our community are safe, that no one is their next victim and that we're not this revolving door. Yeah. Well, this has been great conversation, great information. I really appreciate you taking the time to come on and share everything you're doing

with us. Thank you so much. Good luck with your show. And if you ever want to talk some more, or if you're ever out in Massachusetts, do you want to come visit us? Let us know. I certainly will. Thanks again. Thanks for taking the time out of your busy schedule to listen to our show today. we hope that you enjoyed it as much as we enjoyed bringing it to you if you know anyone that would like to tell us their story send them to tonymentor.com contact then they can give us their information so one day they may be a guest on our show

one more thing we ask tell everyone everywhere about why not me the world the conversations we're having and the inspiration our guests give to everyone, everywhere that you are not alone in this world.