Tooth & Claw: True Stories of Animal Attacks - Alligator Attack - Alligator After Dark

Episode Date: October 21, 2020

We recount the tale of a 2015 alligator attack in a Texas Bayou, involving Tommie Woodward, a young man beloved in his community, and an 11 foot alligator that took exception to Tommie's late night swim in Bukart's Marina. ~~ To advertise on the show, contact us! ~~ Tooth & Claw is brought to you by QCODE. Support the show and get access to an extensive library of exclusive episodes like this by supporting the show on Patreon or joining the Grizzly Club on Apple Podcasts. For the latest updates on the show and all things wildlife, follow us at toothandclawpod.com and social:  Instagram: @ToothandClawPodcast Twitter: @ToothandClawPod Wes: @GrizKid Jeff: @jefe_larson Mike: @mikey3ds Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

If the world were like a sleep number mattress, everything would adapt for your comfort. Because as your life changes and your body changes, sleep number mattresses adapt and shift to give you personalized comfort night after night. And now everything's on sale during our Memorial Day event. Save up to $1,200 on mattresses for a limited time. To experience a whole new world of comfort, visit a sleep number store or go to sleepnumber.com. Sleep number, to a good life sleep. Welcome back to Tooth and Claw, a podcast about true stories of wild animal attacks featuring the Gris Kid Wes. Wes is an expert wildlife biologist, and from what I've been told by the local wildlife, a true friend to animals everywhere.

Also, Jeff and I, I being Mike, are back to make sure that Wes keeps himself on track. This week's episode is about alligators. More specifically, the attack down in a Texas bayou back in 2015 involving an 11-foot gator and a young man named Tommy Woodward. Also, bear with us if you hear any technical issues. Despite having years of experience recording people talking into microphones, I'm still kind of learning the very most basics of how to do all this. Believe it or not, thanks. And one last thing.

If you have a moment to spare and want to help us grow a little, give us a five-star rating and subscribe to the podcast. You wouldn't believe how much it helps us out. I didn't in any case when I first started looking at the data. Anyways, thanks again and enjoy the episode. So it's what week 5,000 of quarantine? Give or take. What are you guys been doing?

It's really not affected my day-to-day life at all. Yeah, it's kind of been a plus for you. We talked about that before, but... I've been working more than I have in a long time. Jeff's working two jobs. And by the way, we got Jeff Mike and Wes. Yeah, we're all here. Yep.

The same three people. Yeah, I've been... Me and Jeff have both been... Cut in the Trail. Kind of a weird little side gig that we managed to get. Jeff's been trapping bugs. Mike still... I hate those bugs.

Mike's still protecting us from Russian and all other people's on the internet. There's nothing specifically about the Russians. Do you, like, with... Based on a personal level. More you're just knocking on people for looking at what they shouldn't.

At looking at porn and stuff at work. Right. I'm genuinely curious about this. When you get any kind of like foreign interference for cybersecurity. Is it coming from a specific region of the world? Yeah. Yeah. It's in this day and age, it's pretty obvious who the bad actors are for the most part.

It's the people you think are, I don't want to come out. All right. All right. Yeah, it's confidential. It's not, I mean, less confidential and more just kind of, think of the stereotypical bad guys. Yeah. And you're. Oh, it's them.

You're fighting bad guys. Yeah. Cool. So speaking of bad guys, someone. took a dump in the yard last night. Yeah. We found a big old turd back in the yard. See, I know.

I think it was you. Yeah, it makes sense. Yeah. I can't give you the minute to minute of my goings on last night. Uh-huh. Yes. You were the only one up. Were you upstairs?

Yeah. It's most of the time. And, I mean, it's been five years since you've been here. You've been here two nights and we see like a bear-sized poop. Yeah. Suddenly we have a huge poop in the yard. That's not a coincidence. That's fair.

Okay. All right. Well, maybe by the end of the podcast, we'll get some truth from Mike. But we did find a huge log of a turd in the yard, and it's not a deer, and it's not a fox. Could be a bear, could be Mike. You think it might be an alligator? I don't think it's a bear. I don't think it's an alligator.

Oh, speaking of alligators. Great segue into what we're probably going to be talking about for a while here, which is alligators. Are we done chatting? I mean, is that, you got nothing else? Yeah. All right. Well, we'll get into alligators because we're obviously don't have a ton to talk about because we've all been sitting inside for a lot. I got a lot of thoughts on alligators.

All right. Well, we got a lot to talk about then. All right. So we're going to talk about an attack that happened in 2015. The guy's name was Tommy Woodward. Now, I picked this, this one specifically because some of our past episodes, I feel like we kind of glazed over the fact that these are real people that have been a thing. attacked by these animals. And we've been talking a lot about the animal side of things, but not so much about the human side of things. And it kind of made me feel a little bad that we hadn't gotten

into their stories as much as I wanted to, because it does then just kind of seem like we're talking about just a number or something. And this one was a good option for that because this was someone who when this attack happened, it hit the news really quickly. And because of kind of who he appeared to be. There's a lot of negative press about him and kind of calling him a moron and a fool and like white trash and a lot of stuff that was really hurtful to his family when really, you know, the story was much more complex than that. So it's weird when that happens when someone's been attacked or dies and then everyone

just attacks their character. Totally. Like that's when they choose to. Well, we talked about that in the tiger episode too where it was, you know, some kids, like actual teenagers. they were killed by a tiger in a zoo where they should have been protected. And immediately everyone was like, oh, they're throwing stuff at it. And they were high or whatever.

And it's like, well, they still didn't deserve to get killed and eaten by a tiger. So we're going to talk about that. And then our other big disclaimer that we always talk about is that we all really love animals. We're not here to paint them as vicious or whatever. I do kind of feel, I was thinking about this today, I feel like the pendulum is kind of swung so far to when like someone's killed or injured by an animal that immediately everyone's like oh you know this it's because of this this this this and this and you know we're like almost painting these animals as being misunderstood when really they are predators you know uh sometimes they kill people and that's part

of their nature and it's not a bad thing and it's something that well it's a bad thing that those people died but it's not something that's unnatural for them not a malicious yeah it's not malicious. It's just every once in a while we become pray for a predator and it sucks, but it shouldn't make you afraid of them and it shouldn't make you, like, want to kill them. It should just give you a healthy respect for what they're able to do to us. So that's kind of what we're talking about in the podcast. Anyway, let's get into Tommy Woodward. So Tommy grew up in this little town called Pacific. It's a town outside of St. Louis, Missouri. He grew up in kind of a broken household. His mom, when he was really young, her and her dad separated. He had an older

sister and then a twin brother. And they had a real hard time making ends meet after that. But he was this really charming, kind of fast talking kid. Everyone really liked him. At one point, he even left home to be a Carney in a traveling carnival. When he was like a teenager, he just left. Seems like someone I'd like. Yeah, he seems like kind of interesting dude. He came back to Pacific after this whole thing with the carnival and then worked with his dad for a while, remodeling Sonic drive-ins. That work really dried up quickly, and then his brother at this point was living in Texas, and his brother called him and said, hey, you should move here. It's great. You can live with me and my wife and my kid, and I've got work for you. It's this little town called Orange, Texas, which is

the easternmost city in Texas. And so he decides to do it. And then a little bit about him and his brother, they are twins, so they had this really tight bond. And in high school, they even lived in a tent on the side of a river for a couple, I can't remember it was years or months. It was months. And then they like were starving while they were living there and just kind of were trying to get by. They had this really tight bond that's typical of twins, but really probably stronger because they went through all these hardships together. So Tommy accepts this offer to move to Texas. and he lives with his brother and his wife, or with his brother Brian's wife and him for like years.

And then Tommy moves out into his own place just like in the same neighborhood. They'd hang out late at night. They'd split like up to three cases of beer at night since a lot of beer. They were pretty heavy drinkers. They have good work. They're established. They both own their own homes. They are kind of good old boys.

I mean, they're drinking late into the night by the fire. You know, kind of typical southern kind of idea of like, These guys that are just working pretty blue-collar jobs, you know, like hanging out, like drinking beer, just kind of their neighborhood. But good people. Everyone really likes both of them. Everyone really likes Tommy, especially because he is so charming and nice and, you know, really did his best to be close with all of his friends and his family.

So he also has his older sister, Tabitha, and then his mom who's named Kelly Kramer Shibles. So interesting name. Cool name, Mom. I like it. He's a bit of a mom. boy, he would call his mom late into the night when he was drunk just to say hi and talk to her, which I thought was sweet. And I'm giving you guys a lot of backstory about this because we're going to go into kind of

that media hit job on him. So their local marina was called Burkhart's Marina. It was a place where everyone would hang out and dance and swim. The bayou right there was called Adams Bayou. And Tommy was a regular in this marina at the bar at the marina. He loved to make everyone smile. He'd drink pretty heavily. So on July 2nd, 2015, that's where we find him.

He's in this bar. It's late at night. He's playing pool. He's playing shuffleboard. He's drinking beers. And 2 a.m. he decides to go out for a swim in this dark water of Adams Bayou, right outside of the marina.

Weeks earlier before July 2nd, 2015, this guy, Kent Robnett, is a local construction worker. He looks out in this bayou and he sees a huge gator in the middle of it. And this is a part of Texas where gators are pretty common alligators. American alligators, what we're talking about. out. And he knew that these really big gaiters only got big because they were smart. And so typically you wouldn't see these big gaiters in that area right in the middle of the bayou, he said. He'd said you'd see him on the edges and stuff in places where people aren't likely to see him.

Because you can hunt legally alligators in a lot of these places. And so the big ones are the ones that are really good at staying away from people. So when he saw this big gator just like openly in the middle of the water, he kind of thought, oh, that's a tough gator and it's one that has lost its fear of humans. And then he saw that it had scars all over its face too. So he distinctly remembers this gator thinking it had a bad look to it, which is a common thing in a lot of these attack stories is you have someone that after the fact is like, oh, I'd seen that animal and it had a bad look to it.

Scars. I don't think a scarred up giant alligator is ever going to look very nice. Exactly. They're not a, it's not a kit. Right. Scarred up. Probably had like a couple of tattoos and eye patch. Smoking a cigarette.

Yeah, had a bad look to them. Bad, yeah. Anyway. Hanging out with the bad kids. Yeah. Downtown. So he remembers it. But again, this is after the fact that everyone's interviewing these people.

Yeah. That are suddenly like, it had a bad look to it. The owner of Burkarts Marina had also seen the same gator in the bayou. And he'd even put up a sign. said no swimming right outside of the marina. Tommy Woodward, unfortunately, did ignore that sign as he ran down to the water's edge that night. So we're coming back to July 2nd, 2015. Tommy's with this friend, Victoria LeBlanc.

As they get close to the water, she sees this gator come out from under the dock. So it's reacting to their presence and it's not swimming away. It's like, you know, popping up to see what's coming towards the water, which isn't a good sign. As she sees it, she yells to Tommy. like, hey, the gator's out. And he just says, fuck that gator as he jumps into the water. That's a direct quote. Yeah.

Okay. So Tommy's feeling pretty confident, you know? And again, you know, when you grow up around an animal like that or when you've lived in an area where you're seeing them almost daily, you probably get that kind of confidence and you kind of start to think, I've done this a million times. I've never had a problem. People swam in that by you all the time late at night. but you know people had been seeing this big gator and a big gator can kill a people and everyone knows that

or kill people kill people and so tommy knew what it could do but he was drunk it was late at night he felt confident he yells out that gator as he jumps in the water and then he's near an island on the other side of the bayou when it takes him down so victoria hasn't gone in the water she sees him start being attacked and he actually comes up and yells at her to stay out of the water because she starts running in to try and help him. He yells at her to go away and she runs back up into the marina and the bartender who is on duty is this lady Michelle Wright. She immediately calls 911 and then runs out with the flashlight. And the cops actually show up like eight minutes later. It's pretty fast response time. But after about five minutes of her scanning the water with

this flashlight, she spots Tommy face down by the dock and then he gets pulled under again. and then he resurfaces about 20 yards downstream and then disappears. So things aren't looking good for Tommy. Two hours later, his body's recovered. So things are looking really bad for him now. So when he jumped in, was it just like its mouth was open and he just landed in the mouth? Or how long was he in there until it got him? He wasn't in there very long.

It didn't have that, like the stories that I read didn't have a story of him like jumping into its mouth. But I imagine where he was running into the water It was pretty close to that dock where she saw it like coming out from under the dock Oh, so he didn't jump off the dock he just kind of ran in he just ran in and then This bayou I saw photos of it's pretty small like it's long But the where the marina is it's just kind of like a little pond almost So I don't think he swam very far before the gator had got it It was ready for him yeah it was ready so they find his body two hours later

His brother was on site when they found it which pretty terrible. But his left arms missing below his elbow, which means that he had been drowned by it. It didn't, you know, it didn't make any wounds that had killed him. It had just drowned him, which is actually how gators typically kill their prey. There's this idea of like the death roll, which I'm sure you guys have seen. I was going to bring up the gator roll. Yeah. So both all all crocodiles do that. All crocodilians, I think, do that. But it's more of a way for them to rip meat off of whatever they've killed. So what an alligator often does, does if I think I'm right about this, I've done a decent amount of research, and then I've

actually spent some time trapping alligators in the wild with some alligator biologists. And from what I remember, they typically will grab something, bring it in the water and drown it if it's the size of something they can hold underwater. And then they stash it, they cache it somewhere like under a log or somewhere where they can come back and rip pieces off. And when they're ripping pieces off, they're doing those little death rolls and stuff. You're great at protecting your data, but lots of places could still expose you to identity theft. I thought it was safe.

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Actual prices may vary, limited time offer. You ever do a gator roll, Jeff? Where you get all sweaty and naked and roll around in someone else's bed? Oh, yeah, that's a gator girl, huh? Yeah. I've never heard of that before. Well, we were roommates. You never did it to me.

Did you do it to Jeff? I might have. No, I didn't. I can't remember again. Don't tell me if you'd have. Sure. He hasn't. I'll look at my diary.

Did a gator roll tonight. Third night in a roll. Just every night when I'm gone Just rubbs his hands together in anticipation for his Some nights when you're there still Interesting I've never even heard of that but that does sound How much of a window would you need just like

I'm taking a pee break and you can get one in real quick? Yeah I just do like a thousand jumping jacks real quick You just wear like a ripaway outfit so you can be naked and roll around in his bed All right so yeah Gatoroles do exist I do think I'm not sure about this. I'm just kind of spitball in here, and I'm not a gator biologist.

But I do think sometimes when they're fighting prey that's harder for them to get control of, they might start doing those roles. But I think typically when they're just killing something that they have a pretty good handle on, which is if this is like a 10 or 11 foot gator, it wouldn't be hard for it to hold a person under. They just hold it down until it drowned. I think they also do it to get away from stuff. I've seen a lot of videos where a gator grabs onto someone that's harassing it or something,

and then it rolls, but it's kind of getting distance from the person as it does it, but it just rips. I mean, it just really messes them up when it's doing that. Do you know what it'd be tricky is closed lining an alligator? It would. That'd be really hard. They'd be good at wrestling. There's a lot of things that you couldn't do. Low center of gravity.

Yeah. It'd be hard to like kick one over even because they got that low center of gravity. Crocodor Hunter could probably do it. it yeah he could do a lot of things yeah yeah anyway he was drowned sure uh it wasn't you know it didn't rip anything off that killed him it drowned him um so but it did rip his arm off just afterward uh who knows when that happened okay but and that could have been from a death roll you don't i mean it's hard to say but they also have one of the highest uh pounds per square inch bite in the animal kingdom so they're like third highest or something so they're pretty intense um

So a hunt for the gator was initiated by local game wardens. They struggled to catch it because it was just a gator that was good of getting away. So that's when that guy that we talked about earlier, Kent Robnett, the construction worker that had seen it, decided to kind of do it on his own. So he gave the game wardens like 72 hours. He told himself, I'm going to give these guys 72 hours to catch this thing. And then he went out and started setting lines to catch the alligator. and he actually caught it on his first trap that he set,

checking it the next day, and he immediately killed it, pulled out his Glock and just put seven rounds into it and killed it. And he said it had an evil look inside, which, again, they're not a personable animal. You know, I know people that absolutely love alligators and they're their lives to them. I worked with, again, with alligator biologists

that just think they're the cutest best animals. But when you stare into an alligator's eye, I don't think you really get that feeling of warmth back that you would get from like a whale or a dog or something that we have a really strong natural connection to. A whale? Yeah. You're connected just, you feel a natural strong connection. Yeah, me and Jeff have done some gray whale stuff in Mexico. And when they come up and look at you, like there's something behind their eyes.

It's not just a cold reptilian stare. Interesting. That's how I feel. Yeah. I don't know. I'm maybe in the middle. Okay. Yeah.

It wouldn't have been the example I would have used, but I get what you're saying. That's true. It's not a very relatable one either. I bring that one up because it surprised me. When I saw a whale's eye, I was like, oh, wow, there's something there. You know, it's not just a blank stare. Do alligators ever become friends with humans? Yeah, I mean, so I know this guy who trains alligators in Florida for, like, for tourist shows.

Oh, really? And he has them pretty well trained, but they're not friends. There's not like a bond there. The alligator respects him and understands his commands. And they have like he feeds it when it does right, you know, when it's a good alligator. But it's not, there's not a warmth there. Okay. Anyway, so this guy goes out.

He catches the alligator, puts seven rounds into its head, kills it, and then gets in some trouble. He reports himself to the wildlife authorities. they're deciding what to do with this guy because he's not licensed to go out and do this. But then they do an autopsy on the gator that he killed and it was the right alligator. They find like some human remains in it. So they decide just to give him a warning because he did kill. They're probably a little embarrassed too. Yeah, totally.

I'll give him 72 hours. But they can't do it like I can. Yeah, which he proved them right. I mean, he went out and caught it pretty immediately. from what I understand he just threw out some lines of chickens on him and caught it. But I'm not trying to downplay the fact that he's good at what he does, obviously. All right. So following this death, I mean, the fact that he said what he said when he was jumping in the water,

you know, that kind of brazen attitude, the fact that he looked kind of like this, you know, rednecky kind of southern person and he had all these photos of him wearing. shirts that had you know pretty weird stuff on him and whatnot the media really grabbed onto this story they knew that he was a pretty easy target

so there was a lot of articles and pretty immediately saying that you know he drank a lot yeah he drank what he lot a lot he got what was coming to him you know they were pretty unflattering and they really attacked him

and it made his family feel terrible was this alligator like beloved in the community or something? No, it wasn't the alligator. I mean, they killed the alligator without thinking about it. Sure. But it was just... What's the purpose?

What's that serve the media? Yeah, what's the spear campaign all about? It just makes the story more in Cinderer, you know? You suddenly have this person that you don't have to feel bad for, you know, which sucks because he is a person and like someone that people obviously loved. Yeah. And honestly, like, that story you were saying about his... Was his girlfriend or just friend?

There's a friend who yelled that there's a gator. Yeah, yeah. So, like, I see myself if I'm about to cannonball into a pond and you said, there's a gator in the pond, I'd be like, whatever, dude, and cannonball into it. Especially if you've done it a million times before, never had a problem. Right. Yeah. I know.

It's something that I don't completely see myself not doing, you know. If it was right by the dock and it's a 10-foot alligator, I'd probably be like, whoa, okay. But, you know, who knows? And this dude was obviously drunk and that sucks. It sucks that there's a lot of stuff he was doing that he shouldn't have been doing. But it's still a person that got killed by an alligator. Yeah. No.

Yeah, if he was sitting there and he jumped in its mouth, then I guess, yeah, natural. That one's on him. That one's on him. Which this is the next, this is the next closest thing to him. But not like the media was saying. Right. It's not like you suddenly should be like, this is a bad person. Right. And so we can kind of have this.

Yeah. this field day of talking about an animal attack and not having to worry about the victim. Right. Which I think is something the media naturally wants to do in these stories because then it makes you kind of be able to revel in it a little more and be like, wow, that's so crazy, this animal killed this person and not think about the fact that a person got killed by an animal. And just on social media nowadays, people like getting mad about everything. Totally.

So if they can blame it on the guy, they're going to you. Totally. I'm sure there's plenty of hit pieces of people saying like, oh, this guy got the alligator killed, you know, which he did, but it sucks. That is an intriguing angle. It is, but I think, I think the life of a person is worth much more than the life of an alligator. It sucks that the alligator had to die. It sucks that he had to die, but we're going to talk a little about why it didn't have to happen. Sure. Anyway, if you are, if you're a writer out there and you're ever writing about one of attacks, just remember, you know, no matter how bad the person may look, it sucks to get killed

by an animal. It's a really awful way to die. It's one of the worst. Drownings. Yeah, being drowned with something, you know, an animal pulling you under the water. Ugh, there's not much that's worse than that. I don't know. I think that's why people, when people talk about animals that are afraid of, sharks and alligators and stuff are usually the top of the list because you've got that extra level of pure terror of being pulled under into an environment that you have no control over. Right. So, sorry Tommy, sucks that happen to you.

Sorry to his family. Sucks that happened to them too. This was the first alligator fatality in Texas since 1836. Oh, wow. So since like the Mexican War, whatever that, what was that war called? Mexican-American War. The Alamo one? Yeah, since around then.

I think it was around then. Something like that. How long, how far back did those records go? Sometimes they're pretty detailed. Yeah. That one was like 2000 BC. The one in 1836 was like a group of people fleeing from this conflict with Mexico. And as they were in the water, an alligator like hit the horse with its tail and knocked the guy in the water.

We should be talking about that. That would suck to just survive like tons of battles. Yeah. And you're just like super lucky. And then on your way back or your way escaping an alligator eat you. Totally. All right. So alligator attacks, we should talk about this.

They're incredibly rare because when you think about it, there are 5 million alligators in the United States. That's so much more. I had no idea. Number wise, that's so much more than any predator we're going to talk about that could kill a person. Five million. And there's up to 400,000 just in Texas.

And Texas only has a narrow strip of alligator habitat. So if they were really interested in us as prey and there's 5 million of them, we'd be seeing so many more people being killed by alligators. They just really aren't that interested in us. They're afraid of us. But they do happen. It is possible. So why was Tommy attacked?

Was this really an evil gator that just had it out for people? There are a few factors that led up to his attack. First and foremost, it's pretty likely they were feeding this alligator. People were known to toss food to the alligators from the marina. and from talking to some alligator biologists and from reading about it, that's the worst thing you can do for, you know, training an alligator attack someone because it just starts to associate people with food and it loses its natural fear of humans.

Which happens with most predators you feed. You don't want to feed any animal. If you feed bears, if you feed anything like that, you know, usually they're fine until you stop giving them food. Or if it sees you running towards the water and it's like, oh, here's this thing that gives me food. and then there's no food, it might just grab whatever it can, which in this case was Tommy's arm. So another big factor of this attack was the fact that he was swimming at night with an alligator.

They hunt at night. They have some really credible organs that help them detect prey in the water at night. So they're actually probably more effective at night than they might be otherwise and gives them really great cover. So you really, if you're an alligator habitat, you don't want to be swimming in night in water that has alligators. If they're more active at night, what are they doing in the day? The day, they're mostly just basking and kind of soaking in the sun. So I've been to Florida quite a bit, and when you drive through the Everglades or whatever in the day,

you just see them like on the side of the banks just laying out in the sun, soaking up the sun. What percent of their time are they in the water? My guess would be that they're in the water less. then they're out of the water. Oh, wow. Because they spend a lot of time during the day just sitting on logs. Do they hunt out of the water at all? No.

It's all in the water? Yeah. Just like fish and stuff? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Fish, snakes, small mammals. Yeah.

They're hunting in the water. So that's not to say if you were to like step on an alligator on land, it would whip around it by you. I mean, it would still mess you up. But it's going to be more of a reaction than it actually hunting you. I can't think of any reason why they would be. Is there any reason for, is there any reason for, for them to be afraid when they're in the water,

especially in the United States. They get, I mean, they're hunted pretty extensively in the southern, by humans. Okay. Yeah. And then they do,

there are places where they share territory with, uh, American crocodiles, which can get bigger than them and kill them. Other alligators can kill them. They still have stuff to be afraid of. And they, again,

most of their prey is pretty small. So they don't really see us usually as a prey item. Right. But if you are in the water at night, they just know that they've got an advantage at that point. So that's that's really the time that you don't want to be in water with alligators. You don't really ever want to be in the water with them. But that's the time when you're in the most trouble.

I could stand maybe right now. Alligators are lucky that they're, I'm pretty thirsty. What? I'm thirsty. I'm jealous that they're in the water. Oh, yeah. You need some water? I think I might.

Okay. I don't want that one. Oh, you don't want my one. The virus is still going to be careful. I just took a drink We can take a break if you need some water All right I'm about done talking to be honest

Perfect So Really I mean Another big thing that led to this is just There's a lot of alligators out there They're on the rise because alligators are doing better There was a time when hunting was so extensive on Alligators that we're really starting to dwindle

And we're losing a lot of alligators And now there's just so many more that they're just naturally going to come into conflict with people a bit more. And I think it's great that we got so many alligators. Like I said, I have been able to go out and trap them and tag them. And I've also just been able to spend some time in the Everglades. And there's places in the Everglades you can go where you're going to see alligators. And that's cool.

You know, that's a dream for me as 8-year-old kid is the fact that I used to think you had to, like, find them. And now you really can just go on these little walks through Everglades. and you're going to see a handful of alligators. I love that. Now, I got a yes or no question for you. Okay. Are alligators dinosaurs? Yes.

Are crocodiles? Yes. Okay. That was actually something I was just about to say, is they're one of the animals that has evolved the least since the time of dinosaurs. There's very little that has changed about them. So alligators, crocodiles, sharks, all of those are animals that are just so perfect at what they do. so good at what they do, that just hardly anything has changed.

Like to say their dinosaurs is kind of murky, but to say they haven't changed since the time of dinosaurs is pretty true. Okay. Yeah. All right. A couple facts about alligators. They can grow up to 12 feet long. They can weigh up to 1,000 pounds.

They have one of the strongest immune systems of any animal. So they can eat those puffer fish that kill you if you don't prepare them the right way? What are those called? There's that Simpsons episode where Homer eats one. The puffer fish. Yeah. I can't remember what they're called. Yeah.

I don't think they could do that. All right. But they can eat some pretty gnarly stuff. And again, like I was saying, they stashed their prey and just eat it for weeks. So it gets pretty rotten and gross, but they can still eat it, no problem. Yeah. They have a bite pressure of 21, 25 PSI. So that's one of the strongest in the animal kingdom.

I think hyenas are like around a thousand. So they're, I mean, they're pretty, and that's the mammal that's kind of been known for having the strongest bites. So they're way above that. Their sensory organs help them detect vibrations in the water, so they're really good hunters. And yeah, they're just kind of a near perfect predator for their ecosystem. They're great at it.

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So you guys have questions about alligators? If you took the top, like biggest alligator, biggest crocodile, biggest Cayman, which one would be like? Crocodile. Okay. Easily. Saltwater crocodiles get up to like 23 feet long. Oh, wow. Where alligators are like 12 feet long.

So it's not even a contest. Saltwater crocodiles are by far the biggest. and then Cayman are the smallest. But this is something to talk about. I mean, I, once I had to physically restrain a six-foot Cayman, and there's two guys, like, the other dude was much bigger than me, and we're holding this thing down, trying to take it out of this place where it wasn't supposed to be.

And the thing just, like, whipped its tail once, completely knocked me flat. There's nothing both of us could do to hold it. They're just, all the crocodilians are just like a straight muscle. They're so, freaking strong. And so I think we really underestimate. You see them just kind of floating around and they look lazy. You underestimate how strong they are. There's pure muscle. They're kind of like a snake with legs and more teeth. Yeah, they are. Exactly. I've never thought about it. I mean,

they're really good at what they do. They're really impressive. I had to sit on one and kind of hold it too. And it just, it was a losing battle for me. All right. So should we launch into some categories. Let's do it. We mix these up a little bit. Jeff, why don't you do the first one? Okay. Do you know?

The first one. The one that you like to do. The suspense. The pop culture? Yeah. All right. Let's just do what's your favorite alligator? Okay.

We'll cut out that other part. Yeah. Now we're keeping it. All right. So what's your favorite alligator? From all of history or pop culture. Any alligator. Any alligator that we all recognize. I thought we were only doing the past 50 years. If you want to constrain yourself to that, you're welcome to do.

I'll start us off. Okay. Jeff's going to start us off. Okay. My favorite alligator is the alligator and Happy Gilmore. Oh, interesting. That takes, what's his name, Chubs? Chubs. Yeah, takes Chubbs hand. Yeah.

And then he gets the laugh. Last laugh when Adam Sandler gives him the head as a present and then Chubbs falls out the window and dies. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Adam Sandler kills the alligator. Yeah. And then the alligator gets Chubbs. Yeah, kind of.

It's dead. Right. But his eye, it zooms in on the eye and the eye is still got that look in it. Yeah, had a bad look in it. It's got a bad look in it. Okay. I'm going to pick the one from All Dogs Go to Heaven. that's the like voodoo witch doctor singing alligator that was kind of creepy as a kid watching it

but it's real sassy and sings and loves that the dog can sing and I really like that alligator are you done west I'm done okay sorry my favorite alligator it's probably from that one Elton John song crocodile rock yeah it's not an alligator crocodile oh that's right different species We'll give it to you Okay Yeah, thanks Sure Unless you had a better end

Isn't there like a serial brand That has an alligator I don't know And there's like a t-shirt Like ambicrombie or something has an alligator Oh yeah The Lacost LaCoste

Yeah That's yours So we are going to kind of cut out The cage match category Yeah that's a bad one Because we just didn't really like it It seemed a little too reductive What we are going to talk about

Is where we can see him That's the next category. So alligators, as I mentioned, are pretty easy to see if you're in the southern United States. There's only two species of alligator in the world. There's the American alligator and the Chinese alligator. Chinese alligators are really rare, hard to see. American alligators are very common. Go to the Everglades.

Go anywhere in South Florida where there's water and you're going to see some alligators if you pay attention. When you're looking at the water, what do you look for? You just look for their head breaking the surface and their body, kind of their back and their tail in the water and then also just look at the bank, the shoreline and you'll see him sunning on logs or on the shore or whatever. If you see it and you're not sure if it's a log or an alligator, can you just toss a little rock at him or something?

You don't want to do that. Nope. Don't toss any rocks at them. Which one's tougher, that Chinese or the American? American ones are a lot bigger. Yeah, but they're tougher. I'm thinking about Enter the Dragon where Bruce Lee fights Chuck Norris. Chuck Norris is the bigger guy.

Yeah, true. It's not always like bigger. is tougher. Yeah. But usually in the animal kingdom, it is. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know much about Chinese alligators, to be honest. But American alligators are significantly bigger.

I guess that they're tougher. How are we messing things up for them is our next category? We were hunting them close to at least being endangered, if not extinct. And now we're doing a pretty good job of protecting habitat, not hunting them nearly as intensively. So things are getting a lot better for alligators. They do have a lot of invasive species problems in Florida where different Burmese pythons and Argentine tagus and other things are starting to compete with alligators for resources, but they're doing pretty well.

Anyway, let's stack it up a little bit to our other animals. Let's rank it. Are we doing this just in our own arbitrary way? Yeah, just like how, I mean, as far as like how we feel about them and how they would do, you know, I don't know if we are we talking about the fights. Just in general, how, what we think of them. Yeah. In general.

So we've talked about grizzly bears, Siberian tigers, black bears, and now alligators. I always loved alligators. They were always so fascinating to me. I loved reptiles, and the alligator in a swamp seemed like a jungle in this really exotic thing. I think they're really cool. I like all of the other three animals a little bit more because I'm a little partial of mammals. I love reptiles. They're right up there with them, but big predatory mammals to me are like, you know, that's my soft spot.

So yeah, you haven't had that same glint in your eyes. No, I still love alligators. And I've been able to go out and tag them. I've been able to handle them. But I'm going to say, you know, we're starting early and we've done some of our biggest, like my favorite animals already. So I'm going to put them just a notch below those ones. Yeah, I'd kind of echo that. I like alligators as far as like we had a really cool toy growing up that was an alligator.

and alligators in the cartoon are always pretty cool. Yeah. But yeah, I don't like the actual animal isn't as cool to me as those other three. Have you seen one in the wild yet? Just like their eyes popping out. Yeah. Yeah. In like New Orleans or something.

Tampa Bay. Oh, okay. So just real quick, we don't need to get too deep into it. Warrior would, would it be able to fight off a bear? If it pulled it into the water, it could kill it. Okay. For sure. Like a black bear?

So like in the water, it could kill all three of those. other animals? Yeah, I mean, tigers are consistently killing crocodiles, which are bigger than alligators. Oh, cool. Yeah. So I would say, you know, if a big crocodile got a hold of a tiger while it's by the water, it could still pull it in the water.

And if an alligator got a hold of a black bear, it could pull it into the water. But I don't know. I have no idea if they've ever, if that's happened. I'm sure it has at some point. But I don't think a bear would really see one as an option unless there's a little one. You want me and Mike to tell you what we would do if we were attacked by an alligator? Yeah. And then you can tell us.

That's our new. That's a new category. I do want to go over because I have a pretty good story. Okay. Not a good one, actually. I apologize. I don't want to build it up too much. Yeah.

I think I like alligators a lot. Okay. The one I'd rank them, tigers, I think, still I'm thinking are my favorite animal. Yeah. Ever in the history of animal. All right. And amalia. Yeah.

Ever. Yeah. We got it. Clear. Okay. All right. Then I would pick alligators. Really?

Number two. Wow. Wow. I like bears. We're getting the hits for you. Yeah. Well, I'm throwing a little bit of a curveball, but here's my theory as to why. Yeah.

So when I was little, we were living in Georgia and we'd go down to the Oki-Fanokee a lot. Yeah. The swamps down in Southern Georgia. Yeah. It's a good word. Okay. Ony-Fanokey. Is it two words?

Might even work three years. No, I think it's one word. It's Oki-Fanokey. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay.

So, it was at an impressionable age in my life. and you know how animals in print sometimes on yeah i think that's what happened okay i was developing healthy young man these beautiful sleek alligators yeah they are beautiful i was a little confused probably okay so this is a sexual thing i think so interesting we'll explore that okay and they're still below tigers still below tigers yeah so you're real horny for tigers yeah got it cool cool so i didn't have any idea that's kind of what you your mindset through all this was sexually Yeah. But we're going to unpack that, I think maybe a professional.

Professional should unpack that for you. But cool story. Great story. Yeah. No, my sports psychologist had a lot to say about that. Cool. Cool. So our next, our kind of newish category is me asking the boys, asking Mike and Jeff,

what they would do if they were in close quarters with this animal, and it looked like they were about to be attacked, and then also if they were being attacked. Okay. So, Jeff, you go first. So if it gets my arm and starts like spinning death roll, I'd just try to go the other way, spin it type of situation. I'd spin the other way as fast as I could. I'm going to write that down.

And then on land, it just kind of take a step backwards. Yeah, get out of its way. Yeah, just take three steps backwards. They're fast on land. Really? You'd have to do a little more than that. But again, they don't really. They're defensive on land.

It's like one fast lunge and they're done. They can run. Really? Oh, yeah. They're fast. Oh, wow. Like, I think it's like 30 miles per hour. They're fast.

For how long? Just for short periods of time. Like, how far? At least probably like 20, 30 yards. Oh, okay. That changes things. Yeah. So I'd have to like jump on it and surf it or something.

They're not, they're doing that to get away from stuff, not to get at stuff. Oh, got you. So I think if you just get away. Okay. Sorry, I'm getting into. No, yeah. Yeah. No, it sounds like that's a good.

I would climb a tree probably. You climb a tree. But then I would do. like an elbow drop from like 30 feet up. Okay, so you're climbing the tree just to get some advantage. Right. In a fight. Yeah.

If that didn't work, I don't know, like a full Nelson. And then based on what... You just told us you'd probably make out with it after first. It'd be fraught with tensions of all sorts. Isn't it a thing if you get on their head, it's really hard for them to open their mouth, right? If you like put your hand over their mouth, they can't open it. Right. They're just really strong at closing it.

Yep. So I would do that and then it would probably throw me off of it and bite me anyways. Okay. Are you guys good? Yeah. Okay. Let's hear what you do. So Jeff's idea of rolling counter to the death roll is really bad idea.

All right. Just putting more pressure on it. You actually, if you do find yourself in a death roll, you are, I believe you're supposed to just kind of go limp and roll with it because it does a lot less damage that way. And typically it'll let go at some point. If you have an alligator latched onto you, it's pretty hard to break that grip. So, you know, when this happens in those shows and stuff, they usually have to get like multiple people in there in some sort of pry bar or whatever to break it. So once you have, once you're at that point where it's gripped down on you, hopefully you're out of the water. If you're in the water, you're in a lot of trouble.

There's not much you can do aside from like what we've talked about before, like poke an eyes or trying to like shove your arm down its throat or something. last ditch kind of stuff, you know, not stuff that you ever want to find yourself in that situation. So climbing a tree would work once close to you. Honestly, to get more air for your elbow drop, right? Yeah. Tell the elbow drop, I think. From what I've read, the main thing is just not going into water

where there's probably going to be alligators. On land, they really don't pose much of a threat. You still got to be careful. You don't want to step on one or something because it might just grab you as an instinct. And if it realizes it has prey, I might pull you into the water. But on land, you're pretty safe.

They can run really fast, so outrunning them isn't really going to work, but they're also not going to chase after you probably. The main thing is just being careful not to go into water where there's alligators, and especially at night. And if you're standing behind them, they'll kind of knock you down with their tail and then get you, right? Yeah, they can knock you down. It's not like they'll flip around and bite you. But yeah.

And you know what? Sometimes they can get you like on the shore too if you're right up next to the the water. That is a tactic of theirs, along with crocodiles, is to wait for something to kind of approach the water to take a drink and then they grab and pull it in. There's a kid that got killed in Florida a few years ago in Disneyland that one like jumped out of the water and grabbed him and pulled him in, or Disney World, excuse me. So that's another thing is just being careful if you're by the water. But from what I know, there's not a ton you can do once one has you. That seems to be a pretty common theme with these animals. It does. Yeah, you want to avoid

being in their jaws. Yeah. That's when you have kind of given up your power in that situation. Thanks, Wes. Yeah. Thanks, Wes.

We've learned a lot. Happy to do some research. Glad you guys are learning. All right. We'll see you guys later. Later. Bye.