Tooth & Claw: True Stories of Animal Attacks - Animal Attack News Roundup - The Scales & Tails Alligator Attack with Lindsay Bull, Wildin' Coyotes, and the 100-Pound Beehive

Episode Date: August 21, 2021

We cover the past month's biggest headlines concerning wild animal attacks. We are joined for an interview by Lindsay Bull, the trainer at Scales and Tails who was bit and then rolled over on by Darth Gator, the alligator she works as a trainer for. ~~ To advertise on the show, contact us! ~~ Tooth & Claw is brought to you by QCODE. Support the show and get access to an extensive library of exclusive episodes like this by supporting the show on Patreon or joining the Grizzly Club on Apple Podcasts. For the latest updates on the show and all things wildlife, follow us at toothandclawpod.com and social:  Instagram: @ToothandClawPodcast Twitter: @ToothandClawPod Wes: @GrizKid Jeff: @jefe_larson Mike: @mikey3ds                          Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome back to Tooth and Claw. Today we're doing our regular news roundup where we go over the past month's biggest animal attack headlines. One of the biggest stories to make waves recently was the trainer at Scales and Tails who got bit and rolled on by Darth Gator, the alligator that she works with over there. And we actually got her on the show with us for an interview. Her name is Lindsay Bull and she was truly just a delight to have on the show with us. Really, really cool person.

So you'll be hearing that interview take place a little bit later on in this episode. But yeah, it really is a crazy video. And if you want to check that out before listening to this episode, you can find it over on our Instagram account at Tooth and Claw Podcast. And while you're over there, you may as well give us a follow too. We're always trying, at least, to post some really interesting and cool content for wildlife lovers. So yeah, check it out. And one last quick bit of housekeeping, we are officially sold out of the Tooth and C-Shirts

and are working fast to get them back on the digital shelves as soon as we can. Thanks again for buying us out of stock like that. Pretty awesome problem to have, in my opinion. Okay, once again, I've been talking way too much. Let's get to the show. Hey, everyone, welcome to tooth and claw. This is a podcast where we talk about animal attacks, and we like to talk about the perspective of the animals.

We like to kind of get into why the animals did what they did and how people could potentially not run into the animals. those same problems. Cool. And we're here to educate and to have a good time while doing it. And the reason we can do that is because I'm a wildlife biologist and I've learned a lot about animals. Cool.

Jeff, what are you? I'm your field tech and I just have a bunch of other jobs I go through. Yeah. Mike, I'm the currently unemployed. Oh, man, dude, don't remind me. I wake up every day with the crushing realization that my life is. hurtling towards the oblivion. I have nothing to show for it. No, man. I don't like this whole idea that we aren't worth anything if we're not working. I think that's wrong. I think sometimes we shouldn't

work for a little while. I think that's... We are working. We're working right now. On the podcast? Yeah. We're working hard. We're having fun. I'm sweating. He's taking off his shirt. He's sweating. Oh, he took it all the... He took both shirts off. Oh, we just thought that's nipples. So wait, what are, what are we doing specifically today? So first of all, we're doing our news episode today. We're going to talk about different animal news items that we found noteworthy. It's summer, so there's a lot of them. And we're just going to, we're probably just going to scratch the surface. But we got a special guest later on that we're excited to talk to. Um, mom. We're hoping she shows up. It's not mom. Oh, wow. Oh, I wish you guys could see Jeff's disappointed face when I said it wasn't mom.

It's weird to do a news episode right now, West, right? Because like there haven't really been a lot of animal attacks in the past. There's been so many. There's been so many. Let's catch up on a couple things real quick first, though. So, uh, big milestone we just hit. We hit our thousandth review. Oh, we got it. We got it. We got it. We did. But then I checked today and we were like back 20 again. Uh-oh. So some people deleted their reviews. I don't know what happened. We got people playing with our hearts. Let's look. Okay. Oh, no. Okay. It's just my phone. We're good. It's a thousand 18. Oh, few. Man. My life almost meant nothing. thing again.

Mike's hanging on by a thread. And if he goes, we all go. We got that packed. So we got to take care of Mike. All right. So we are going to talk about our news episode, or our news stories today. Do you guys have anything else you need to talk about before we go into our news? No.

Nothing to get off your chest, Jeff. Nah, I'm good. He just showed us his chest. All right. So the first thing I want to talk about, I'm going to go first if you guys don't mind. We're going to talk about the Ovando Bear Attack briefly. We did mention this attack during our most recent grizzly episode, which is titled, I believe, Al, the man who punched a grizzly.

But there were a few more details that came out about this attack that I wanted to bring up. This was a really tragic one because unfortunately the woman who was attacked did end up dying. Her name was Leah Davis-Lokin. And she was attacked and killed in her tent in the early. mornings of July 6th. This was a grizzly bear attack in Ovando, Montana, which isn't far from where me and Jeff grew up. It's where I live right now in Missoula. And I was just in Ovando fishing the other day. And you saw a bear? Yeah, saw a black bear while I was fishing. And we saw a badger too. Whoa. Nice. Yeah. Badgers. Anyway, we did talk about this attack a little bit. What had

happened is this bear had been seen in town recently. It was like picked up on some security cameras. It had raided a chicken coop and was causing some problems. And she was at, actually that camped right pretty much in town next to the post office. And there's some other campers there. They were like bicyclists on this big long bike ride, I guess. And the bear came in and it was messing around with this other campsite. And they got out and actually sprayed it, apparently, and the bear took off. And then it came back later, a few hours later, middle of the night and collapsed this woman's tent. From what I heard, just pretty much killed her inside the tent, pulled her out and started feeding on her. and then some of the other campers responded and chased the bear off.

So that's what we know. They did catch the bear a couple days later. It was raiding another chicken coop, and they caught it, did some DNA testing, and realized it was the right bear, and ended up euthanizing it because it killed this woman and fed on her. So really, a campsite attack like that, it's pretty cut and dry. It's not going to be a surprise. It's not like a bear naturally defending its cubs. What I'm trying to say is they never leave those bears.

If they can catch them, they will euthanize them. Do you want to explain that? Like how the, I mean, animals kind of just get one strike when attacking humans? Well, it depends, yeah. So, like, for example, in 2011, there was a bear that attacked and killed a guy in Yellowstone, him and his girlfriend or wife or something were attacked. And they were way out in the backcountry. They rounded a corner.

They didn't have bear spray or anything. And they surprised a mother with cubs. It attacked and killed this guy. And they didn't kill that bear because it was. acting like a bear naturally does. These people ignored some signs. It, you know, it was this whole thing. And they made the decision not to kill that bear just because it wasn't outside of its natural behavior. And that's just like a mother protecting her cubs. Now, on the other hand, this woman was camping pretty much in a small town where the bear shouldn't necessarily be in the

first place. And it invaded her campsite, attacked her in the middle of the night, and tried to feed on her. And so that's much more predatory. behavior and that's a bear that if you leave that bear there's a good chance it's going to get into trouble again and so that's one where managers are just going to make the decision to euthanize it because it's a really big liability to have that animal out there still if it did attack and kill someone else then they would have like their family would have a really good legal basis to like sue the government or whatever for a lot of money because they knew that bear was trouble and they left it so that's kind of the that's kind of the mindset behind those decisions and that's what

happened in Ovando, obviously super tragic. And while we're on that note, I'm just going to roll right into another really tragic bear attack, which happened in Alberta. Alberta is just north of Montana. It's a Canadian province. They have both black and grizzly bears in Alberta. And this one actually is a black bear attack, a predatory black bear attack. It's a woman who is working as a helicopter engineer for a tree planting operation for a logging company, and she was killed by a black bear in Swan Hills, Alberta. Oh, man. So this. So this. This was in, I believe July, there's really not that many details about the attack, but a co-worker witnessed this malling, and he was able to scare the bear off,

but by the time they, like, got her to the airport, she was dead. Oh, wow. And you don't know, like why she died? No, I mean, like I said, there's, yeah, it was the bear. Yeah. Not that many details about this one, but I did look into Alberta attacks a little bit, and there's been six fatal black bear attacks in Alberta since 1958, which doesn't sound like that many, but I was actually.

a little shocked. That was more than I would have expected to have six fatal ones. I'm sure there's been a lot more that weren't fatal. But for Black Bear attacks, that's fairly high. And that's since 1958. So that's what, like the last 60 years? Yeah. We had a Black Bear episode not too long ago where the math basically broke it down to that there's one predatory Black Bear per generation of Black Bears in North America more or less. One in a million. One in a million. There's 800,000 Black Bears in North America. So a little bit less than one per generation. But this is saying won a decade. This is six fatal attacks in just Alberta over the last 60 years. So yeah, one decade in Alberta, which to me, for just being like one province in Canada,

seemed a little high. I was a little shocked that there was that many. Are you saying America, Mike, or North America? That's North America. North America. That's all of Black Bears. Yeah. Well, that doesn't add up with what stat you just said? One generation? Yeah, it's saying, well, no, he's saying that, like, out of every million black bears, there's one that might kill people, and there's a new generation of black bears, like, every three years. It works.

That works out. Oh, I see. I just thinking human generations. No, no, no, no. No, bear generations. We're talking bear years. You know how, you know, like dog ears? Yeah.

What is the conversion rate of bear years and dog years? I don't know. That's a good question. Well, like, how old do bears, what do you think the average bear life is? I would say the average black bear life is probably around like 18 to 20 years in the wild. That's their average? How long they live? Yeah, they probably live to be like 30 in the, in like captivity.

But they can live to be 30 in the wild. Okay, so it's like five, five or four. You know what I just learned? I saw a bunch of wolves this week. The wolves in Yellowstone, their average lifespan is like four years. That's crazy. Yeah. Why do they die?

I don't know. I don't know of like what an average wolf lifespan is or if that's just Yellowstone. I don't know. I work with a bunch of wolf biologists, though, so I'm like learning a ton about wolves. It's really fun. I got to watch wolves feeding on carcasses all week. It is the best week. So a little bit more about Alberta and black bears, though. The last time they did a population estimate was actually 1993. And they guessed there was roughly 40,000 bears in the province. So which is a, that's a decent amount of bears for the size of Alberta. there's likely more than that now. And they have some spots in Alberta where the density of black bears is pretty high too.

So there's like one area there where they have roughly 370 bears per 100,000 square kilometers. And the average for Western states in the United States is about 308 bears per thousand square kilometers. So a little bit higher than average. And black bears can be found in roughly 75% of Alberta. So if you're in Alberta, you're probably in, in black bear country.

Be careful. Consider moving maybe. No, I wouldn't say you should move just because black bears are around. I saw probably 15 black bears this week. It was a good week for me with black bears. Geez. All right. Do one of you guys want to tell one of your news stories?

Yeah, I'll go. Jeff, why don't you go? Yeah, so this is a new segment. Okay. Oh, okay. Probably just this episode, though. Shooting from the hip here. Let's hear it.

And it's called Coyotes be whiling. Are these, oh, so you're doing all the Vancouver coyotes. Yeah. Since December 2020, there's been 34 attacks in this area in Vancouver by Stanley Park, like in that area. And just like last week, there was a little boy who was bit on the leg. This woman and her friend were picnicking, and a coyote just came up and bit them both on the leg and ran off. And they're having a huge problem there. Yeah, like 34 this year is just crazy to me.

Yeah, there was a Hollywood actor that was attacked there. Really? There's some crazy stuff happening in Stanley Park. Who? Yeah, they just say, I don't want to, I don't want to spoil it because that's on my list for an entire episode. So they're saying that it's probably like people leaving food around the park, and then they have signs where there's coyotes, and people are just ignoring the signs and, like, picnicking right in those areas. Yeah. Did any of these attacks consist of the coyotes painting a tunnel on a rock in people trying to run through them?

Or like them getting like big an angle? That's how you get a coyote is you drop anvil on. Yeah, you just drop an anvil and there will be a coyote underneath. Every time. Isn't it normally like the coyote gets himself with the anvil? Because he's also one to pulling that stuff out. Yeah. Yeah, it's more active dawn and dusk, crepuscular.

Yep. They might be being fed, it said. And then there's this one whole article of a biologist saying that she thinks they might have found drugs and ate them because they're acting so strange. Okay. The headline of the articles, the coyote attacks in Canada might be partly fueled by eating drugs, expert says. What expert? I'll give you your name. It's Alexander something.

Wait. That's her last name. It's Dr. Shelley Alexander. Oh, she's a PhD. Yeah. Well, you know, I'm not going to say that she's wrong. Like, who knows what these coyotes are getting into? It could be like mushrooms or something.

I don't know. Yeah. I feel like then the coyotes would just be lost in, like, deep thought and thinking about. Well, maybe they think. Like life. Yeah. They're placed in the universe. Maybe they're just, like, view in the humans as a big old hamburger.

Or a roadrunner. Maybe their clarity realized, like, hey, we need to get rid of these humans. Can't blame them. We're for sure going to do a whole episode on coyotes and like the Stanley Park attacks are going to be pretty prominent in it. Have either you been to Stanley Park? No. Okay. It's really cool.

Really? Why? It's huge. There's like an aquarium. There's all sorts of neat stuff there. What else is there? There's an aquarium. Is it by the beach?

Yeah. It's like, it's in this little inlet and it's just like a massive, it's almost like you're on an island. But like tons of trees and it's huge. It's really cool. And there's a bunch of coyotes. And coyotes. Yep, if you want to get attacked by a coyote, that's where you should go. Coyotes be wild.

So that's it for Coyotes B. Wiley. Good segment. Cool. I can't wait for it to come back. Great segment. Coyotes are such a fascinating animal to me. You guys should read this book called Coyote America. And it goes over like the history of coyotes in America and like how adaptable of a predator they are and just how amazing they are.

Like, because we've tried multiple times to get rid of coyotes. And there are states that are still kind of trying to get rid of them. And they just, like, can't because coyotes are so good at surviving. They're amazing animals. Interesting. This summer, serve up the cookout classics, Heinz ketchup, and Kraft singles. Every good burger needs a layer of perfectly milty cheese and thick, rich ketchup. We all know it's not a cookout without Heinz and Kraft.

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Learn more at LinkedIn.com slash small business. Great. Mike, you want to tell a story? Yeah, sure. My news story is the bee attack that just happened. down in Arizona recently. Oh yeah, I'm glad you saw this one. You know how I feel about bees.

Yeah. How do you? You like bees. You're pro B. I'm pro. Yeah. I am too. Bees are sweet.

I'll tell it. There is this 10 year old kid at the park. And he, he tripped in the grass and the bee stung him on the hand. Oh, that's not it. So that's a different one. Oh, that's a good one, though. Yeah. His hand was in pain for a little while.

Yeah, the stinger was stuck. in there. Yeah. Did you know that when bees sting people, it releases some kind of attractant to other bees. So when you get stung, you're, yeah, more bees are on their way. So they're getting up on you. Well, that's my story. Now let's hear the real one. Oh. So yeah, just a couple of weeks go down in Arizona, the details are pretty sparse. So I don't know exactly what led up to the attack. exactly, I don't know if people were messing with this hive or what exactly was going on, but there was a hundred pound beehive outside of this person's house, and somehow the swarm got all riled up, and it ended up staying this guy and two other people like hundreds of times.

And I didn't know this, but even if you aren't allergic to bees, I guess if you get stung enough, it's maybe just common sense. If you get stung enough by enough bees, They can kill you. And this guy ended up dying. And yeah, I just thought it was really surprising just because I'd never heard of a fatal bee attack, really. I know that there are some species of bees over in other countries and parts of the world where it's a very serious concern.

But this is like a domestic bee attack that ended in a fatality. Yeah. So my guess, and I'm not totally sure here, so there is like an Africanized type of honeybee that we have now in the U.S., that they've earned the nickname Killer Bees because they are more aggressive or, like, territorial, I guess, for bees than our typical

just like run-of-the-mill honeybee. There's still bees, they're still honeybees, but we do have those, and I know they have them in Arizona. So my guess is that's probably what this guy came across and, like, what do you got to end up getting stung by? But when you think about it, when a bee stings you, it's pumping

venom into you. It's just a tiny bit of it, but that is venom. And if you get thousands of little, you know, bee injections of venom, it's a lot of venom. That adds up to a lot and it can kill a person. Is there anything you can do if you're getting stung by that many bees? Like, stop, drop and roll. I think the best thing is you just run away. And then I also think like getting in water. If they sting your Achilles tendon. Then it might be a little bit harder to run, but you'll probably still be okay. Yeah, I think getting away, getting in water, just getting out of there. I've seen it before too where people like,

when they start getting stung, if you stop moving, that that can help. But if it were me, I would just say, like, get away. You got stung by a hornet's nest a bunch once. Yeah, I stepped in a yellow jacket nest once, and they stung me on my eyes, my ears, and my mouth everywhere. Yeah. And, like, Grandpa and Aunt Terry were there, and they were, like, watching a badger. And they were like, hey, look at this badger. And I was like, I'm getting stung by hornets.

And they were just like, come check out this badger. and no one was helping me because they were watching a badger. Badgers is pretty cool. Badgers are cool. I don't totally blame them. Bees are cool and they're worth keeping around. And what I'm supposing was happening is this person may have actually been trying to remove the hive. This is totally just my own conjecture.

So take this with a grain of salt. But I just wanted to bring this up because if you do have a bee hive, there are multiple sources you can contact who will come and remove the bees for free. and it'll be harmless to you and to the bees. Oh, I didn't know that. Do that. Because bees are, bees are, yeah, we want, we want bees. Bees are beautiful. Wait, bees are beautiful.

I love watching Jeff try and work his way through this one. Be careful. So I do think you're supposed to, you're supposed to just like run away. And something else I've heard is that you're not really supposed to like flail around a lot and whatnot because that can just attract more bees. So just get away, but do it as calmly as possible. And then, yeah. Do you guys remember that Jack?

I think it was in the last Jackass movie, where Stivo and I think Ryan England or whatever his name is, they had like a tether ball that was full of bees. Yeah. And they were hitting it back and forth. Yeah. And they, yeah, and they just were getting stung so much. Yeah.

Anyway, I'm really excited for the big, Jackass movie. Yeah, they just. sure do. All right, I got a few more. So my next one is an otter attack. What? Whoa. Yeah. This one was pretty interesting to me. So a 12-year-old boy from Butte, Montana, was attacked by an otter. He was swimming in the big hole river, which this isn't, again, very far from home for me and Jeff. But he's about an hour and a half away from Missoula. But him and his cousin were floating the big hole river when an otter approached them and started attacking them. I guess like

They tried to avoid it as what they said, but then it came up and attacked him. This kid's name is Trace Knighton, and it bit his ankle, his head, his arms, and his hands. I guess there was some chunks missing out of his arm. He got stitches and staples, but he's fine, which is just crazy to me. It's not every day you get otter attacks. No, so otter attacks are super rare. Really, they only happen when they're defending their young, or if you're like entering an area where maybe they're feeding and they're trying to be territorial of that particular feeding area.

But really, my guess is that this otter probably had young nearby and that the boys just got too close to it. So you otter avoid. I was going to use that. We all have the joke. That's why you're a snake does. Otter be careful out there. Anyway, so luckily this kid was fine. As he, he like floated down and his dad collected him and like he took him to the hospital

and a little funny aside from the article I read about it, it said, at the hospital, a nurse offered Trace a Popsicle, and he said he was definitely good with that as long as it wasn't an otter pop. That's really fun. Yeah. Who knows if that journalist just made that up or not, but pretty funny. Yeah, it's pretty next-level joke for a dumb little kid. Yeah.

So otters don't really, they're not an aggressive animal. They are a must-a-lid, though, so they're in the same family as like, weasels, wolverines, some of these animals that are predatory and otters are predatory. And they're not predatory to humans, but they do act like predators. And if you do get too close to their young, they're probably going to be aggressive. And that's what happened here probably. But there aren't a ton of details. You know it's cute that otter I saw in Yellowstone this spring with you.

Oh, you saw a muskrat in Yellowstone the spring with me. I saw a muskrat. We can argue about that. I saw a muskrat in the river and I was like adamant that it was an otter because it had like a cute face and like I only saw it for a bit. And it took me way too long to like concede that it was just a muskrat. I don't think you ever did concede. I think that just now you conceding was the first time you conceded that it was a muskrat. Oh, I did concede, but that's all right.

Jeff's, Jeff's main argument was that it had a cute face. Yeah. It's a good argument. I was like, Jeff, it has a long slender tail and like a round, body. And he's like, yeah, but did you see its face and how cute it was? I'm on your side. Okay, fair enough. I think it's just an otter with a real skinny tail.

That's what I'm thinking. So one other story that we got sent a lot was about this guy who was terrorized by a grizzly in Alaska. And this happened in July, I believe. But this guy who he was like up in this remote mining camp north of Nome, Alaska. And apparently he was attacked by a bear. It dragged him down by the river. And then all of these articles that I read,

there was no information on how that ended, but somehow he made it back into like a shed. And then he wrote SOS on top of the shed and helped me. And then says that for days at night, this bear would come back and terrorize him. He was down to his last few rounds of ammunition when they finally found him. And it was like a Coast Guard helicopter that was going out

was some biologists to count dead seals and whales and stuff. And they noticed this guy and they went down and saved him. And he said that it'd just been like an absolute nightmare that this bear had been showing up and had been, again, terrorizing him. I feel pretty bad for this dude. I'm wondering about like how scary that would be and how you keep saying it terrorized him. Yeah. And just like hypothetically if the bear was just like trying to like mess with him and scare him really bad.

Do you think it'd be scarier if the bear came in the cabin with a hockey mask on, or it's just a bear enough scary? I think the bear enough is scary. I think I'd be less scared if it was wearing a hockey mask. You know, I'm not trying to downplay this, and I do believe this guy's story. It's just confusing as a biologist. Yeah, there's so few details about it. I'm guessing that he's probably just in a pretty remote area where there isn't like a great food source for these bears.

And so this one was like, oh, I might have something here. I'm going to keep checking this out. But I don't totally, like it says he had two rounds left in his gun and stuff, and I don't totally know why he didn't just try and kill the bear. That's what I was wondering. Like, he's almost out of ammunition. Like, why not just, like, use it? Right.

Or, like, why he's out there in the first place. I'm not sure. There's just, like, a lot of unanswered questions with that whole ordeal. Well, maybe we'll get more details and do, like, a little. Yeah. A bad on. Yeah. Yeah.

I will say, like, if you. you're out in the middle of nowhere and a bear keeps showing up at your cabin and you've already been mauled and you're injured, that would be really scary. That's a terrifying thing to have, keep happening. But I just wish there was a little bit more details on this one because I don't totally understand what's happening. We got sent it a bunch of times, and I didn't really have a great answer for those of you who sent it to us because I still don't really understand what happened. So maybe it wasn't even worth bringing up. Maybe the bear was eating drugs.

Yeah, that's probably what it was. Bears eating drugs. Maybe the guy was eating drugs. Another, yeah, true. Another bear attack just happened this week near Ennis Montana. Two guys were attacked. They had their dog, and they pretty much rounded a corner and immediately got attacked. The first guy got mauled a bit.

I think it bit his shoulder and mauled as the top half of them. And then the dog ran in, interjected itself in the attack. The bear pinned the dog. down and then the bear went for the other guy and bit his hands up pretty bad and the first guy managed to get his bear spray sprayed the bear and that ended the attack is it grizzly bear you said yeah grizzly bear just south of venice montana apparently they didn't have any major injuries but it was a really really scary the dogs are right guys the dog's all right too um but the dog did get bit pretty bad but now it's okay seems like a good dog yeah does seem like a good dog oh and it's something i actually wanted to talk

about that. So I'm sure these guys credit the dog with saving them and it kind of did. But there's also a really good chance that because that dog was there, it escalated the attack in the first place. Dogs can really cause bears to get much more upset than they would otherwise. And so that attack might have ended quicker had that dog not been there. But the dog also did seem to help. So it's kind of a weird, like, I don't think that's a catch-22, but it's a... You got to give the dog some extra treats though still for you know standing up to the bear sure it's a good point that I mean you never see a dog and a bear getting along you know they seem like mortal life live that polar bear and those huskies yeah those the polar bear in the huskies although that bear has

killed several huskies um or those bears have yeah but just the bad ones something that I've learned in yellowstone actually is that like so bears will often follow wolves in the winter be or or like when they come out of hibernation or right before they go into hibernation, to scavenge off of wolf kills. So the wolves will kill like bison or elk or whatever. And then the bear rushes in, scares all the wolves off,

eats its fill, and then the wolves come back and finish the rest of the kill. And so bears and wolves kind of had this weird cooperation sometimes, even though it's forced cooperation. And then in Yellowstone, they've actually documented them playing together too, where the bear will lay on its back and kind of play with the,

wolves. But for the most part, you're right. For the most part, they hate each other. Wolves will typically engage with bears in a defensive way or like try and scare them off and they'll fight. But there are instances of both cooperation and play between the two. So it can happen. So like if there was a buddy cop film starring a bear and a dog, you could see somehow them finally getting along. Yeah, like at first their enemies. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Just like lethal weapon. The bear's like, I don't want a partner. And then the chief is like, you got to have a partner because you're a loose cannon.

Eventually there will be the scene where the chief is like, Rex, gun and badge. Yeah. And it'll just bark at him. We've had a couple shark attacks. There was a 12-year-old girl that was bitten by a shark in Maryland, which is like Maryland's first non-fishing-related shark bite. ever, which was interesting. And then a woman was bitten by a shark in Nova Scotia, and that was likely a great white

because that's really the only shark they have up there that's going to bite people. Yeah, so a few shark attacks. There's just been a lot of attacks. I had a really hard time narrowing down what we wanted to talk about because there's a lot of stuff going on. There was three kids that were killed by lions in Africa. A lot of stuff is going on. What's like the, so you're working in Yellowstone kind of like man.

managing wildlife and humans, right? Like interaction? Yeah, my official title is like, I'm part of the bear management team. So what's the animal that, like, is most likely to attack a person in Yellowstone? A bison. Bison. And that's just because people get so close to them. Right.

And right now the bison are in the rut, so the males are super revved up trying to get females. And they're just, like, always in the road, much more active than typical, running around. and like pretty aggressive. I shouldn't even say aggressive. They're just like amped up. So one more story I wanted to talk about was a bison on bison one. So this week I spent most of the week watching a carcass and seeing if bears were going to come down and feed on it, but it's mostly wolves. But this carcass happened because there's a video of this and I'm going to post it to our Instagram because it's crazy.

There's all these bison standing and they're kind of doing typical bison shit, like one's rolling around. and they're just kind of like feeding and whatnot. And all of a sudden, like in this video, you see one just come charging out of nowhere and just totally head butts another one and just kills it instantly. Kills it. Whoa.

So they kind of have a soft spot on their forehead. And I think that one just managed to hit just the right spot and its horn just goes right in, right into this one's brain and just drops it like sack of potatoes. And there's video of it. It's wild. And so that carcass ended up getting moved down the hill and that's what all these wolves and stuff we're feeding on this week.

So if bison charges you, couldn't you just punch them right there and kill him? I don't think so. No, no. We're going to do a bison episode, but if anyone needs to know more about that, like if you are visiting Yellowstone soon or something, bison are one of the few animals we're going to talk about

where really the best thing you can do is just run away. If a bison's coming at you, run away, try and put stuff in between you and it, whether that's like your vehicle. Well, if you got your vehicle there, get in your vehicle. But if like there's trees or anything you can do to like put in front of like you and the bison, do that. Just get on the other side of old faithful.

Yeah, sure. Yeah, there you go. I feel like Donald Duck did that in a cartoon once. Anyway, those are the stories I had. I didn't, I mean, like I said, there's a million stories we could talk about. I have one more really good one that I, was researching and it happened here in Utah, but we're going to actually have the person that happened to come on because you were able to get in contact with someone that knows them.

Yeah. But yeah, it's like a really crazy alligator attack that just happened. It's one that we posted and that a ton of people sent us. And it's really, it's really cool. So we're just waiting for her to join us. All right. So we have a special guest, Lindsay Bull. and she works at scales and tails here in, is it in Salt Lake, Lindsay?

We're in West Valley. In West Valley. Okay. So you are on the podcast with us because you just had a pretty crazy encounter with an animal that you work with, right? That's right, yeah. Okay. Do you want to kind of, so it's an alligator attack and do you kind of want to run us through what happened? Sure.

Yeah. I certainly wouldn't call it an attack, you know, like it. Okay, perfect. Yeah, like my hand was basically in the way of where his face was. And, you know, I was feeding him. So he was in, it definitely in food mode and just kind of clamped down on what was there. It touched him in the face. His food always touches him in the face or gets thrown in his mouth.

So for all he knew, that was just another piece of Missouri. Yeah. Okay. And what were you feeding? Yeah, he was going to get some chicks and then just some like chicken breasts. Okay. So he just felt your hand and thought it was chicken pretty much. Exactly.

Clamp down. Okay. Yep. So Lindsay, like I know they have really kind of an intense response when they feel like anything hit inside of their mouth or whatever. They immediately snap down. And they do have one of the highest bite pressures or crocodilians in general have one of the highest bite pressures of any animal out there.

So can you kind of just run us through how it felt to have an alligator? I mean, how big is that alligator, first of all? Yeah, Darth is eight foot six. Okay. So that's not a small alligator. The name is Darth Gator. Oh, that's a good name. Yeah.

And this is, is he an alligator that you've worked with a lot? Yeah. Oh, yeah. I work with him like at least three times a week. I have a normal job during the day, like a desk job. I'm a consultant. But in the evenings, I like to either go rock climbing or run up there and see my boy, Darth. Yeah, cool.

I do think we should really quickly before, I guess I asked you a question, but I want to rewind a little bit. We should probably just, for whoever hasn't seen this video, What's happening is Lindsay's in there. She's doing a demonstration. There's some visitors watching and you're feeding. Well, that's what's like kind of funny about it, not to en route up. I don't know if funny is the right word, but it was like a fifth grade. It's like a five-year-old's birthday party, right?

Yeah, she turned five. There's just like, I mean, funny is not the right word, but it's like made the video kind of unique that there's just all these little kids watching and no one knows what's going on, you know? Oh, yeah. Presta things like glass. very memorable for those kids. They look pretty entertained instead of like, there's one kid that's just like smiling the whole time. Those kids are so cute too.

They were like apprehensive when they first came to the shop. But that's what we love is to like get people in there and get their hands on stuff and let them see that, you know, these animals, they've been absolutely like sensationalized in media. And so it's really scary. But you can come meet them and hold them and they're not. So at that point, they were all like, oh, yeah, the shop's pretty cool.

Like, let's hold some more stuff. And then they were like, wait, maybe we don't want to hold everything. Anyway, the video, like, you see Lindsay feeding and then your hand ends up getting bit. And the gator ends up doing a death roll. And I'm going to have you explain all that because you're the expert here. But then like a actual bystander jumps in and helps you. Okay, Donnie Wiseman. helps you with getting the gator off your hand and everything.

So if you haven't seen this video, you guys should definitely watch it. We're not doing it justice. But can you explain, like tell the story a little bit what happened from your perspective? Yeah. Yeah. And a little bit of it is like I'm not entirely sure how my hand ended up in his mouth.

I actually haven't myself watched the video. I promised some of my coworkers that we'd like watch it together. Okay. And so we haven't had a chance to do that yet. but yeah so I went in just to feed him and he knows he's trained to respond to different commands. And so he knows he's not supposed to be up on the platform when I opened the door like that. And so I go in and you can see me initially. I think I told him to go back.

It's just a command that he knows means go back in your water. You're not doing what I want you to get in the water and then you're going to get fed. And he decides instead to kind of push forward a little bit. He's like more excited than usual. So where there was public washing, rather. than struggle back and forth with him. I just went ahead and went to push him back by the mandible. Something I've done lots of times before,

but for whatever reason, he turned off my hand and my hand didn't clear. And so he just snatched it. That's my best guess is that, like, he turned and my hand was just in the way. And once it hit his face, it was over. Yeah, that's pretty much what it looks like watching the video. I remember it semi-accurately. And then from that point, I remember everything, I think.

Yeah. And you guys can jump in. You're like, if you've seen the video and I'm saying, no, no, we want to hear from you. I, yeah. Okay. So then at that point, he had my arm and he, like, instantly, you're like, okay, is he going to, is he going to roll or not? So I'm watching him to see what his behavior is to see if I can call it. You know, I'm outside of the enclosure and he's inside of the enclosure.

So if he rolls, I'm in a bad position. And if I think he's going to roll, it's advantageous for me to climb me. in with him. So he thrashed his head first, which is just something they'll do like if you were to give him a rabbit or something and they didn't think they could, they weren't sure how big it was. They might thrash to rip off a piece of it. But with prey items that are much bigger than that, that's when they'll go into the role. So he thrashes first. And I at that point, grab him by the face just so that if he, you know, that hurt. Like, I don't want him to do that again. So I grabbed him by the face to see if I could keep a little bit better control.

or just have more contact with him. And at that point, he pulls back. And I can't say for sure if it was because I grabbed his face or because he was gearing up for a roll, but he does do that before he rolls. And so as he was pulling back, I just went ahead and climbed in with him. And then the next thing I knew,

I was, you know, on my head is like, hey, he's either going to roll or he's not. I'm just trying to mentally prepare myself for it. And then I saw him go belly up. And at that point, just dropped my shoulder and rolled with him. I think we may be rolled twice. And then at that point, my body had kind of like oriented in a way

where I could slip my legs around his neck. And so I don't have like a ton of wrestling experience or anything, but I was like if I can get my legs around his neck and like lock him like a triangle choke or something. You looked like a pro. Yeah, it was good. I can attribute that back to Coach Hwangton at Deer Creek High School where I grew up here.

Yeah, taught me everything I know in terms of wrestling. but anyway, I was thinking if my legs were like wrapped around him like that and he went to roll again, then it'd be a lot easier for me to roll with him. That makes sense. Or if you was like thinking about rolling and I was able to like tighten up on his neck that maybe I could even chew him from rolling. But as I'm like going through that in my head, all of a sudden, if this angel jumps up on the platform next to me and he's like, what do you want me to do?

What do you want me to do? And initially I was kind of like, don't do anything because. you're not you're not you're just like some random person in this store but donnie and i had talked before and he told me that he had worked with giant rock pythons before and even owned some snakes large snakes and had some experience working with reptiles and so where we'd had that conversation and i had already gotten darts gator to the point where even if he at that point where my legs are next to his head like if donnie jumped and darts gator thrash side to side for him he'd have gotten my leg, not Donnie, you know? And so I was like, he jumped on his back was, you know, like,

possibly he's not going to roll. Possibly he does. But if you get on his back, he's definitely not going to. And I'm like, your mindset is still just like keep him from rolling. Like, that's your main priority. Yeah, exactly. But then once he had jumped onto the back, he said, okay, now what? And I said, just don't let him roll. So I'm like, get all your weight on. And I'm like, sit all your way down. Because I'll do trainings for our staff. And we have like a modified jump so that you don't put all your weight on him, like trying to make it as comfortable as possible with Darth. You don't like slam down on him. You like jump and land on your knees and then sit down on him and put all your weight. But it's really hard to remember like, you know, you're working with

this dangerous animal. Right. And you're trying to go through these new muscle memory things. And so a lot of them will keep like their butt hovering over the top of him. And so he's still like all moving around and trying to get free. So it's, you know, like people need the reminder for whatever reason, like put all your weight down. And so Donnie, I think you can see him like cramming Darth into the ground. He's like, no, you're not going to roll. He was such a hero. Like he just was on it so fast. But yeah, he holds Darth down perfectly. And at that point, he went in like quick. He reacted fast to it. And he committed to he was like on top of that gator. Yeah, which is so important when you're doing stuff like that. Because if you're not fully committed, that's when you get most of the time, that's when people get injured.

is because they're like, should I do it? Should I not? And like, they have those integumentary sensory organs. They know where you're at in the water. So if you're hesitating, splashing around next to them or whatever, they're just going to grab you. So, yeah, man, he was so fast, so committed. And then he, from what I remember, like, as I was possibly in shock,

he had, like, a really good jump, too. He had great form. Yeah. But, yeah, so he did all that perfectly. And then he's sitting there. And at that point, I'm, like, a little relieved because he, He's not going to roll. I'm probably going to keep my arm at least, hopefully, depending on how bad the cuts are.

And so I was just kind of waiting for him to let go. So eventually they'll realize, like, this isn't a food item or somebody's on my back. And I'm no longer a predator, but a prey. And so to get to get him off of your hand, did you guys try to pry his mouth open or you just waited? I think for a second I pushed on his mouth a little bit to see if he would just release. But he didn't. And so, you just kind of waited it out. Just waited, yeah.

Honestly, props to you too, because you stayed so calm the whole time. That's what I was just about to say. Like if you, like, edited it where there's no alligator in the video, you wouldn't even like know anything was going wrong. Right. I feel like. Yeah. I was going to say we, so we've been hesitant to invite quote unquote victims onto the podcast

just because sometimes people do a lot of stuff wrong. And we don't want to have to be like, hey, you did stuff wrong. And from what I know about alligators, I've been able to go out with alligator biologists and like do some captures and stuff. You did everything so well. Avoiding, you know, rolling with the roll, locking your legs around it to me was just something I'd never even thought of. And it was so smart. And then just like how calm you were waiting for it just to open its mouth. Yeah, props.

I can't believe how well you handled that. So anyway, yeah, sorry, we just needed to sing your phrases. How is your hand doing? Yeah, it's good. I've got it like prop up right here. Yeah, that's quite the cast. How many stitches and stuff did you get? Somebody told me to ask that and I didn't think of it,

probably because I was high on pain meds for like three days. Nice. But a lot. It's a lot, yeah. Like our coyotes. You're going to get like a full recovery. That's what the surgeon said. He's saying it should be back to 100% after rehab.

Good. So just to like to finish the story really quick then, like you wait in until it open its mouth, but then this dude stuck on the alligator still, which was obviously like an interesting experience for him. So what happened after that? Another like 20 seconds after you got out. Yeah. So it was like, you know, first I'm wondering about the roll, then we're rolling. Then I'm wondering if he's going to keep rolling. So it's like just checkbox after checkbox after checkbox. And that was like the final thing. You know, like the final boss. I'm out of the enclosure. And then I was like, oh my gosh, he's still on Darth. I've got to get him off. But

I'm about to pass out. Yeah. My head's all ringing and everything. I think I like lean on the enclosure because I just had like no heartbeat at all. Yeah. And he's looking at me. He's like, what do I do? And I just tried to, I don't know how well I did at that point, but I just tried to explain to him like, you need to put your hands on his neck and then push him away while you step

off the back. And whether I explained it well or not, he did it right and got out safe with you. It's just like cool of it. Like just having seen your hand right now and like. knowing that there is significant damage there, that you are still able to, like, keep your composure and, like, keep him, keep talking to it. Like, I don't know. It just seems like it'd be really hard to talk him through it at that point when you're out and, like, you're kind of assessing yourself a bit, too, you know? For sure. That was like, good job. Thank you. Yeah. Good job.

I'm not losing your hand, too. I mean, it's an alligator and not a small alligator. Like, eight feet isn't nothing. That's a decent size gator. Yeah, he's a pretty big boy. He's got a lot of fight. Yeah. The rolling behavior, that's mostly them trying to rip off chunks to like something that it can swallow. And so for people out there, like part of our podcast is explaining to people what you do

if you are, you know, if you do have some sort of encounter incident with that same animal. And yeah, again, we don't love using the word attacked, but that's just kind of the name that people usually give it. But if you were bitten by an alligator and you're in your situation, what do you do if it is trying to roll? Roll with it. Yeah. So it seems counterintuitive.

But the closer you can be to him, the more control you're going to have over the whole situation. So my arm's stuck in his mouth. Obviously, I want my arm out. But grabbing his mouth and holding it shut on my arm, enables me to have some type of control over what's going on, especially where like what he wants to do is,

take that arm and twerk it over to the side and roll it. If I've got another arm on there, that makes it a lot easier for me to initiate the roll on my end rather than just being like ripped into the roll because my arm's breaking. And you probably can anticipate what it's about to do a little bit better when you have both arms on it like that. Definitely. And as far as like wild alligators, what can people do to avoid getting bit by an alligator? So where there are wild alligators, there are always signs. that say avoid this area. But I would say the number one thing for people that live in those areas, don't feed them.

The easiest way to make sure that you're going to cause a problem is by giving them food because then they associate that area with getting fed. And so if something does touch them or something does splash the water, they're a lot more likely to be reactive. And then too, obviously they're going to associate it with an easy place to get food. So yeah, keep yourself safe. Don't feed them. And those are laws in those places.

is they say don't feed alligators. Just follow what's written in law. We've done one alligator episode and it was an alligator that had been fed a lot. And so when the kid that ended up getting killed by this alligator, the idea is that like when he approached the water, the gator was probably like, oh, here comes something that feeds me, you know, and like waiting for food.

Kind of like you mentioned how Darth Gator was in food mode, that alligator probably was the same thing where it was just like, oh, here comes food. and then he jumps in the water and it's like I guess this is what I'm eating you know yeah so Lindsay I have one more question for you uh how are you feeling about like going back to work and like seeing Darth again after all of it I'm looking forward to that more than anything right now really oh yeah and that's how like people should be like animals I don't know they're cool like you should want to interact with them so I love that well and he was doing what comes naturally to him he wasn't acting uh you know

out of his natural behavior, he was acting like an alligator. Yeah, and again, like you did, like, you handled the whole thing so well. The guy that helped you handled it really well. And it ended up being like a really neat video that I think people can learn a lot from. So we were thrilled that we got to have you on the podcast because this just happened. Like as we're talking, people can't see this, but like Lindsay's got a big old cast on her hand. So like this did just happen. When did you get out of the hospital?

Yesterday. Yesterday. Okay. Cool. And for those of you who maybe do live in Utah, quick pitch for scales and tails, you guys do some really cool work there. We've interacted with scales and tails a few times.

There's some really cool educational programs that they do. Is there anything else you want to say about scales and tails? Yeah, come in and learn about reptiles, but specifically come see Darth Gator. The cool thing about Darth, like, he got famous overnight, right, for doing something that literally every single, single alligator like the millions of alligators that exist in the world do but dart skaters trained

and he knows how to respond to certain commands and he's kind of really amazing to watch so we're probably not going to be doing public feedings for a while for all these reasons yeah but when we start back up like yeah come see darts and see what he's capable of we we definitely want to come to visit you guys yeah mike did you have any questions uh no just getting really excited to go see Darth now. I think we should take a tooth and claw field trip. Lindsay, we really appreciate having you on. Thanks so much for telling the story and for educating us a little bit about gator behavior. Yeah, thanks for the invite. Yep. We'll talk to you later. A pleasure. We'll see you. Bye. That was really cool talking to Lindsay. The video was amazing. And I think, Jeff, what we were saying,

like, the way she responded to it was so good. Yeah. She was incredibly calm. It's almost like weird how calm she was. Yeah, like she's, she's just like resting on her hand and like looking at it while it's munching her other hand. Yeah. I love that she like can't wait to get back and see Darth again too. I know. Mike, what were your thoughts listening in? Well, that was my, I don't know, I just think that's really cool that these people that spend so much time around animals, the relationship is almost strengthened even, like a bond, a closer and tighter bond with the animals formed after going through. It was kind of like, almost not even in a again we don't want to say the word attack but um it felt like an experience

of it being an attack well it felt like an experience that they shared you know it was almost kind of like a thing that now she has a tighter bond with this animal that totally munched her hand it's it's really funny yeah i mean like we mentioned we haven't had victims on the podcast and i think it's because we don't necessarily want a to cause them to have to relive their trauma or B, to have to talk about maybe what they potentially did wrong and disrespect them in that kind of way. But it was so great to have Lindsay on because she really didn't do anything wrong. Like, it was just a freak accident where she got bit and then she acted like totally appropriately following the bite. It was funny because when you asked her like what you should do if you're being attacked by an alligator.

Yeah. I was thinking of me and Mike's, what would you do on the alligator episode? And I wanted to be like, so should you do a barrel roll the opposite direction to it? Or should you drop an elbow drop from a tree onto it? When I was like a lot, like a long time ago, I actually like, I'm going to admit something. There's a confession for the podcast. I had a pet alligator for a little bit when it was pretty small. You shouldn't have them.

It was a dumb decision. I was young. Sorry. It ended up going to a rescue organization. but I did and I got bit once on my finger by this alligator as I was feeding it a pinky which is like a frozen mouse it really hurt get hurt really bad it went right through my fingernail it was awful and so I can't imagine what it feels like to have your entire hand and like arm munched by an alligator but I don't think I could be as calm as she was I don't

think I would I was surprised when she showed us her hand and it was just like a club yeah full on cast yeah Anyways, such a cool video. You guys should look it up. I'm excited for her to watch it with their friends. Yeah, that's crazy. She has like saving it. And I do think if you get the opportunity to go visit Scales and Tales in Utah, they have a really cool educational program.

They have a lot of cool reptiles. I know they have some venomous snakes. I think they have a Gila monster. They've got an alligator for sure. They got some cool stuff to see. So even if they're not doing feedings, go check them out because they're a cool. Go say hi to Lindsay and tell her you heard her on TV. tooth and cloth.

Tell her we sent you. Yeah. She'll give you $5 off your ticket price. Mike, did you get turned on by that alligator while you're watching that video? So I have a confession to make. I haven't seen the video either. I had no idea what we were even talking about. Is that why you're just like on our Instagram story?

Yeah. I don't, Mike's not on Instagram. You think I follow us? All right. Well, do you guys have anything else you want to say? Thanks. that was really cool to hear it from you. Mike, you should watch our Instagram videos every now.

Yeah, serious. Mike, maybe you should. Thanks also to Lindsay's coworker Riley, who put us in touch with her and for messaging us. And thanks to all of you guys for sending us animal attack and like animal incident stories that you guys find. I think in our first episode we mentioned that we're going to use the word attack. But since we've had, you know, since Lindsay did correct us on that,

which she was right to do. I wanted to mention again, we say attack just because it's kind of the easiest way to say it, but a lot of these things aren't attacks. They're just the animal responding to something that the human's done, and in some cases what the human's done wrong. So we call them attacks, but a lot of these are real actually just kind of like responses.

Yeah, I think attack kind of works for me still because it's like if a homeless guy came and bit me and he didn't realize he is biting me, I still attacked by it. That is a weird example. Yeah, don't say that. Yeah, I just think, like, attacks an easy word to use. It's what it's like colloquially.

I can't say that word. Can you say that word, Mike? Colloquially? Yeah, that's what, like, we say. Is that right? Yeah, it sounds wrong to say. Jeff, why don't you try? Colloquially.

Huh, that actually wasn't bad. Yeah, it works for my stammer because that's all it is. Yeah, it just sounds like a stammer. Anyway, we are going to say attacks sometimes, but it's usually the animal responding to something the human did. Okay, well, I think that's it for this week. Thanks again, guys. We love you guys.

Check out our Patreon if you want more content. And thanks for all the nice reviews and ratings and messages and everything. This has been really fun. Yeah, I had fun. Mike, did you have fun? The best time in my life. All right. All right.

Thanks, guys. We'll talk to you guys later. Bye. Love you. See you.