Tooth & Claw: True Stories of Animal Attacks - Bears in Yellowstone ft. National Park After Dark

Episode Date: March 27, 2023

Cassie and Danielle from National Park After Dark joined us recently for the first (and hopefully not last) Tooth and Claw Interview Series to talk a little bit about the history of feeding bears in Yellowstone, and then answer a slew of mostly ridiculous questions about themselves, including who between them would win in a fight and whether cake and ice cream counts as one desert, or two.  ~~ To advertise on the show, contact us! ~~ Tooth & Claw is brought to you by QCODE. Support the show and get access to an extensive library of exclusive episodes like this by supporting the show on Patreon or joining the Grizzly Club on Apple Podcasts. For the latest updates on the show and all things wildlife, follow us at toothandclawpod.com and social:  Instagram: @ToothandClawPodcast Twitter: @ToothandClawPod Wes: @GrizKid Jeff: @jefe_larson Mike: @mikey3ds                          Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey everyone, it's Wes. A quick correction corner for something you haven't even heard yet. In this episode, I make a big deal out of Night of the Grizzlies being in 1969. I talk about it a lot. I make everyone guess what year it is. I got it wrong. As I was re-listening to it, I was like, that doesn't sound right. Night of the Grizzlies was actually in 1967. You'd think I'd know that because I spent weeks researching that whole story. But it's a lot of stuff to keep in your brain. So just so you know, I do get that wrong. wrong in this episode, issuing that correction now so no one gets too thrown off. Enjoy the episode.

Okay, Duthan Claw podcast. We got Jeff, Wes, and Mike here. Wes is our wildlife biologist and number one podcaster in the world. It's not true. Two weeks in a row. Bear expert. That is true. Then we got Mike who is quitting his job and has like four days left, right?

Oh, no, it's over. You're done. Oh, you're done? I went into the office and I was like, it's today. Or I quit. Perfect. And then we got me, Jeff. I was West's field tech with bears and I like yellow and red starvers.

You sure do, pal. And then we have some special guests today. We do. We got National Parks After Dark finally coming on our podcast. National Park After Dark. Hello, hello. Yeah. Danielle and Cassie are here.

How's it going? Good. Thank you so much for having us. Yeah, of course. Thanks so much for having us a while back. So we are more than happy to also have you guys on tooth and claw. We're, you know, we're big fans over here. Oh, likewise.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. We've definitely had a lot of people trickle and dar our podcasts from your guys' podcasts. For people who haven't listened to their podcast, do you want to let everyone know? Yeah, so our podcast, National Park After Dark, it is for morbid outdoor enthusiasts. we like to tell stories that take place inside of national parks, whether that's a survival story, an animal attack, a dark history that's happened inside the park.

We do dabble in true crime a little bit. We do disappearances, murders, but mostly I would say we do stories you probably haven't heard of, but are really cool inside of national parks. Keeping it broad. We love to hear that. Yeah, abroad too. Great. We definitely will like have crossover stories.

for sure then to, right? Without a doubt. Oh, I'm sure. Where did the idea to your show, did you just meet in a national park one day and you're like, we're getting along pretty well. Let's start a show. That's a cool story. It would be like a meat cute, but no.

It started inside, actually. Cassie and I worked for many years as veterinary nurses, and we met at work. And on our free time, we loved hiking the White Mountains in New Hampshire. I'm sure that's where we met and grew up, went to college, and worked afterwards. And we just really love morbid things than the outdoors. And we would always talk about, like, crazy stories that happened wherever we were recreating outside. And then when I moved to Washington State a few years ago and Cassie moved to Vermont,

we couldn't do it in person anymore, but we decided to keep the conversation going, just in a different format, thinking that other people would enjoy it, and it looks like they did. Yeah, we're happy that you guys did it. It's funny, you bring up the, like, remembering morbid stories and the places you visit. My advisor and my mentor, Tom Smith, he's the guy that I kind of learned most of my bare stuff from. He's that way, like, anywhere I would go with him, he would know exactly, like, where people had died and exactly how it would happen. And it passed on to me, like, there's a spot in Alaska. This is just a quick, weird one that just popped in my head, so I'm going to say it.

there's a spot in Alaska where there's that boar tide that comes in it's right by anchorage it goes like way up the inlet there and when it comes out there's like these big tidal flats where people will go collect clams and whatnot and i guess there's this woman out there collecting and the tide came in and she got stuck in the mud and like it was just slowly rising and so they got a boat to try and rescue her and the boat got there right when like her nose was right under the water line and she was like about to drown and they thought they were going to get her and as they were grabbing her, her hair got stuck in the motor, and it pulled her under and she drowned. Oh my God. And I think about that all the time. Every time I drive past that inlet, I'm like,

oh, God, that's where that woman died. I can tell you think about it all the time because we weren't talking about anything closer to me. And it popped right into my head. Are you related to him, Mike, Tom Smith? Probably. There aren't many of us, right? Many Smiths up there. It's a unique name. Yeah. National Park after dark. So does that mean like in the daytime? What? That's a bad question, Jeff.

That's stupid. Oh. I still can't do the drum sound. The rim shot? Yeah, there we go. Perfect. Just calm me up whenever you need it. Our stories take place during the day and at night.

Okay. Oh, that's where that was doing. It's a good name. How did you come up with the name? I don't know. How did we come up with the name? You came up with it. I did?

Oh, yeah. Yeah, I don't know. Daniel texted me one day and she's like, idea, podcast, National Park After Dark. I was like, yeah, that sounds great. Yeah. That's cool. So I don't know where you came up with it, but it just came to me from above. Pulled it out of thin air.

Yeah. So this is a new format for us. We're introducing some more of these kind of interview episodes where it's a little bit more casual. we don't necessarily have like a species that we're focusing on. But you two are the first that we wanted to do this with, again, because there's like such a mutual or there's an admiration on our side. I don't want to speak for you to. It's mutual. It's mutual.

It's mutual. Yeah. We had so much fun on your show that we decided you would be great interviewees for this first interview podcast that we're trying out. And when I reached out to you, you had a really good idea that I thought we should run with for the first part of this episode. which is talking a bit about bear feeding in national parks, specifically in Yellowstone. And I really like the idea. I know you both have a ton of information about parks, about Yellowstone. I've worked in Yellowstone a bit.

So we figured it'd be really good to tag team this topic. Talk about it a little bit in the front half of this episode. And then the second half, we're going to be a little bit more off the wall. We're going to get into some fun questions that we're going to ask both of you. Jeff just teased that he has mystery questions that no one knows what they are. good topic for me too because I go back and forth if I think feeding wild bears is a good idea or not. Well, great. We're going to teach you. I can't believe that after three parts of Night of the Grizzlies, you're still back and forth on that.

I feel like should be the story that deters you from wanting to feed a bear. Yeah. Totally. Yeah, but they're just so cute. That meme, that it's like, if not friend, why friend shaped? And it's just their ears. There's one too where it's like, if I was getting attacked by a bear, I would get in a couple pets. I'll tell you this much, when you work with bears for a living, you get very tired of those memes because they get sent to you five million times before they finally run their course. You're like, I've seen this. Yeah, and it's hard to be like, ha-ha, every time, like, you haven't seen it.

But anyway. Fair. Keep sending them, listeners. Anyway. All right. Well, why don't, you know, why don't we launch into it? We got a lot to talk about and then a lot of fun questions. So I'm going to turn it over to Danielle and Cassie to talk a little bit about the early history of bear feeding in Yellowstone National Park.

Thank you. So we wanted to talk about because obviously today when we think about bear feedings and things, a lot of us are like, you're not supposed to do that. But things have changed a lot because over the past. several decades, the management in wildlife has changed significantly, especially specifically for bears. Today, if you visit a national park with a population of like black bears, brown, polar bears, you're usually educated about bear safety and etiquette when you get into the park. And if anyone's listened to our podcast or your podcast, we've talked a lot about those directions as well.

And overall today, it's pretty well talked about what you should do. And most people, have like a general understanding of what you should do in the outdoors. And of course, there's mishaps and stories that obviously still happen. But for the most part, people are pretty well educated and at least you shouldn't approach them. And a lot of this is because outdoor recreation areas like the park service, they educate people, they have signs up that tell people, please do not feed the bears, don't touch the bears. But that hasn't always been the case. because these same entities like the Park Service and other outdoor recreation facilities at one point, they actually used to promote these interactions with bears.

It's like an attraction. Yeah. It's like a way to bring people in. Yeah. They're like, this would be a great way. Why would someone want to come to Yellowstone? Let's see. Put on a yearly competition to see you can touch the most theirs.

I wish we could just do like the purge movies but with like feeding wildlife. Just one day of the year. You're still allowed to go feed us. Just go wild. And just see, like, how many people make it. That would be a movie I would watch, for sure. Yeah. No Rules National Park.

Yeah. But the animals, unfortunately, wouldn't know that it's a purge. Yeah. And I feel like it would be detrimental to the wildlife, which is also not the goal. But it would be a funny movie. Guess the purge only works with people. Yeah. Can you imagine how many bears would be attacking people if they knew

they were allowed to all the sudden? Yeah, there's no repercussions. Just grislies can kill whoever they want. Well, beginning in the late 1880s, when Yellowstone National Park first built their very first hotels, bears began gathering at night to feed on the garbage cans behind the buildings that they had there. So soon after, hotel operators created nearby garbage dumps, which ended up kicking off a major tourist attraction inside of their park.

Because people were so excited to see these bears congregating to one place, it wasn't long before bear feeding spectacles were major attractions at many national parks, not just Yellowstone, but between the late 1800s to mid-1900s, the Great Smoky Mountains, Sequoia, Yosemite, and then, of course, we mentioned it already, but the night of the grizzlies all started with bear feeding spectacles. And for our stories and the history that we wanted to go into today is specifically for yellow stone. And for many years, this park was actually known for a place to not just like go see all the geysers and stuff. People went there specifically because they wanted interactions with bears.

Taurus visiting could gather nightly to watch bears feeding on garbage. And it wasn't just feeding bears that the tourists were able to watch. They were actually made it this interactive experience for everyone where they could actually feed the bears themselves. Which is crazy. It's crazy to be alive, literally. Like, let's go feed the bears. It's wild that they set up bleachers at some of these spots for people to like sit down and watch the nightly feedings. It wasn't like, oh, you know, we put this trash out and the bears are eating it and we're just going to kind of go with it. It was like very coordinated these kind of feedings and whatnot.

And then along the road sides too, it was just, that's what you did in Yellowstone is you fed bears out your window and whatnot. Yeah. It's a funny image of bleachers full of people cheering, like doing the wave and stuff. Like everyone gathers, there's a chant. You clap when they all arrive. They're all wearing Chicago Bears and Cubs shirts. I mean, pretty much. I mean, I don't know if all of that, but yeah, there were specifically two places in Yellowstone

where this became a huge spectacle. And it was first, which was near the Lake Hotel, and this hotel was built in 1891, and it's the oldest operating hotel in the park. and the second was near a canyon hotel, which was built in 1910, but it was abandoned in the 50s and then destroyed in a fire in the 60s. But these places, they started off as pretty basic dumps for bears. And then when they found out all these people were so excited for it, that's when they started making, they built them up. They built these like little mini stadiums where people could sit in bleachers, built to these big concrete platforms where they would dump all this food. on and people could come sit around. And then they got a little bit creative and they built these

wagons that they would fill them up with garbage. They'd fill them up with garbage cans. They would drive these wagons. Usually they had like a horse drawn wagon that was happening. They'd bring them to the sides of the road closer to where visitors could see bears and they would attract bears out from the woods to the roads so people could gather around to see them. What? Would they Just leave the horse attached to the cart? Oh yeah, they're all sitting there. What? They would even bring tourists on the wagon themselves to hand feed the bears while they were there.

No way. Yeah. That's crazy. Yeah. None of this seems like a bad idea to do you have. I would pay for this for sure. I highly suggest anybody that's listening right now to look up pictures as we're talking about this because the pictures are just like insane. Yeah.

They are amazing. Yeah. I also highly suggest no one actually pay attention to what Jeff just said. Hey. Yeah, please do not actually try and do any of these things. Disclaimer. Yes. Unless it's the purge.

Yes. Unless it's the one day a year that we're allowed to do that. Thank you. Which has not been announced yet, but we'll keep everyone updated. Wireless can feel like a world of traps. But not with visible. It's one-line wireless with unlimited data and hotspot. Powered by Verizon.

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See Visible.com for plan features and network management details. Well, these places, I mean, they actually installed floodlights to these areas too. So it wasn't just during the day that you could see these bears, is they had this going at night too, so people would gather around at night when the bears would come out, and they had their floodlights there. And there were nights where 50 to 70 bears would come out and feed. Wow.

And it's also, it was a mix. I mean, there were black bears, grizzly bears, all congregating to the same area to get this garbage food. So if there was a bear fight, it was just an added bonus. Yeah, pandemonium. Yeah. Pandemonium. Ha-ha.

Yeah. You're one. Where's that? Oh, yeah. It's crazy to me, like, working in Yellowstone and all of that, the thought of seeing, you know, you see these photos and you see, like, nine or ten grizzly bears all huddled around this little spot, or more, you know, but I've seen these photos where there's that many all at once, and they're big, fat grizzly bears because all they've been eating is human food waste.

And it's just like, well, we're going to get in this, but it's so different from what you see today in the park. But it is, like Danielle said, I really recommend checking out some of these photos because it's pretty wild. Yeah. And it has stopped for a reason, which will also get into why we don't see that in the park. Because they did. They created this, like, fun, immersive experience, which we later see that had detrimental impacts to people and wildlife. And just a fun fact that I threw in here, Gerald Ford, the 38th president of the United States, worked for

them at one point. So they used to employ armed guards to come to these feedings as like a protection for people. And he was one of those people who was an armed guard for the bear feedings. That's crazy. Interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Fun fact. Cash cab fact. If anyone's like that. Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to write that one down. Yeah. Yeah. So as we know, bears are very intelligent and it didn't take long for them to start associating food with humans. And while many of Yellowstone's bears were still deep within the park and remained wild and pretty wary of humans, obviously 50 to 70 a night, there's a big population that are coming out and they're becoming habituated to human presence and because they knew where to snag a snack and get fat and, you know, not have to work hard for

it and it's just lying there for you. Yeah, exactly. We talk about that a lot on our show the fact that like a bear can literally spend its entire day eating berries or roots or grass or whatever and it gets the same amount of calories in five minutes by eating a couple of donuts or some bacon that we leave out so it's so worth it for them from an energy standpoint it's just like it's such an effective source of energy it's almost like they can't turn it down once they start getting into it exactly and a big chunk of the black bear population became known as beggar bears or hold-up bears. So what they would do is they would hang around the road sides

waiting for tourists to stop their vehicles and throw out or hand-feed bears from their cars because at one point when Cassie was talking about the wagons, that's before vehicles were allowed into the park. So now we're into the time where people are driving into the park and it's just kind of triggering some mayhem on the road sides. Yeah. Also look up these folks.

because there are pictures of people in their vehicles just like handing their food to these bears that are climbing on their cars. Well, Wes has one right now as his background. Yeah, you do. That's my favorite one. It's like three cubs. They're all a different shade of brown and black and they're all like begging out of the same station wagon window. And nowadays, I think we can all safely say this behavior is Toron behavior if this was to happen today. There's a whole page dedicated to it.

It's one of our favorites, obviously. We don't want to end up on there. Yeah, don't do it, torn onto Yellowstone. But during this time, photographs of visitors and park rangers alike capture just how different the attitude was back then regarding human and bear interactions. And like I just said, a lot of it was, we think back like, oh, it's the visitor's fault because the park is obviously saying, don't do that. But it's a different time.

It's the wild, wild west. and even people in the Park Service condone this behavior, Horace Albright, who became the superintendent of Yellowstone in 1919, and actually went on to become the director of the entire National Park Service, is famously photographed picnicking with three black bears, and that was during the 1920s. And he had a huge role in these bear displays that Cassie was describing. Under his leadership, the dump outside of the old faithful got a huge makeover, complete with a feeding platform, a safety ditch, which I'm not really sure what that entails. Nothing like a ditch to keep a bear out, right? Exactly. Those wooden benches, the benches, bleacher type things that we were talking about, and then a giant sign that said lunch counter for bears. And that's another famous photo you can look up.

And there was even a 1920 edition of the hotel's brochure that promised a photograph with a wild bear alongside your multi-course dinner in the same hour. So it's like, come dine with us and, you know, get a picture with a wild bear. Yeah. Wild, in quotation marks. Right. Yeah. Imagine trying to put that in a brochure today. Yeah. That's like the main attractant to come to a park is to do something that now we see is incredibly detrimental to both sides of the.

equation. That's so weird. Yeah. And I mean, I hope that also not to go down a rabbit hole because I will with this, but photo farms are kind of like that modern day problem. That is widely accepted right now, but hopefully that's turning. A lot of those bear worlds and places like that too are also. Russia. Yeah, similar. Russia, the entire country of Russia. Right. Yeah. Russia is on my radar. I'm watching that. Thank God. All right. Jeff's on the case.

So back in time and back in the U.S. in Yellowstone in 1929, it was estimated that 90% of all visitors that went to Yellowstone visited that lunch counter for bears. Like that's how popular this was within the park. And with all of these close interactions came many incidents of injuries. according to my favorite person, Lee H. Woodlsey, the author of Death in Yellowstone, Black Bears were involved in almost all of the incidents with a high of 115 people sustaining injuries in a single year, and that was during the 1930s. And I had to pull a quote from the book because it ended so brilliantly. He says, quote, anyone reading the Monthly Park Superintendent's Reports from the 1920s and 30s

cannot help but be impressed by the massive amount of bear bites and scratches of foolish visitors caused by their feeding of bears. For example, the monthly report for September of 1924 records 88 bear bites at West Thumb alone. How dumb could so many be? For some context here too, I think it's kind of surprising to see that like most of those were black bears. and the thing that is important to kind of think about is that, A, there's more black bears in the park than there were grizzlies. And then B, grizzlies were able, because they are bigger and more aggressive and dominant,

they would be able to kind of stake out these best spots in the dumps and the feeding areas and stuff. So I think that a lot of these black bears would have to squirt out onto the roadways and kind of look for handouts from visitors. They weren't like necessarily able to feed in like the prime locations. and a lot of those injuries were just bites and scratches that people were getting from feeding. Like the bear wanted more, the person had run out of food and the bear bites them. Or the person, you know, gets a little too daring and the bear ends up biting their hand or something. And there were some more major ones too, but a lot of them were relatively minor injuries.

Yeah. I read one quote that they said, it's like, what's a better souvenir than a scar when you leave the park? Yeah. Yeah, that was from good old Horace. Albright. That was from him. That was his superintendent. That was his entire stance, actually. So he was quoted as saying, these black bears were not vicious, but they were big and powerful and could be dangerous if provoked. And we constantly warned visitors that the bears were wild animals and should be treated with caution. But visitors would often hold out food with their hand, hoping to get a

bear to rise up on its hind legs and reach. Occasionally, the bear would bite or scratch the visitor and trying to reach the food, then, of course, we would get an impassioned complaint about this quote-unquote vicious bear. I would answer such complaints by first telling the visitor that he or she should not have held a hand out to the bear. Second, the wound was only superficial. Like, don't be a baby about it. And, and third, that the bear's bite was actually a unique souvenir to take home. Jeez. It's a good spin. Good marketing. It is. I mean, It's kind of like gaslighting a little bit. It is. It is. It is. It is like this happened to me and it's like, it's your fault.

You should be happy about that. You should be happy. I do kind of wish I had a bear. A little bear bite. A scar from a bear, though. You probably have a little one from that cub that bit you. No. I don't know. Anyway, I wonder, you know, like in Death in Yellowstone there's a story and we've done this one on the podcast to the woman who was feeding the bear and it falls down on her as it's kind of falling back down. Yeah, and it like rips her boobs off. Yeah, that was gnarly. Like, you know, and so I wonder if they're...

I know. Like it sounds like you're just like saying that, but like that's what actually happened. Yeah, I doubt it was like complete removal, but we don't have to get into the semantics of it. But like, I wonder if Horace was just like, oh, well, you know, that's what happens. You come to the park and you lose your boobs. First of all, it's your fault. Second of all, it's kind of cool, right? It's a cool scar, right?

Yeah. Well, I think that maybe there was something to do with that, like as far as people kind of minimizing what was happening. But in certain circumstances, I'm not sure if the details on that particular one, but there were some situations where the government stepped in and kind of coughed up some money. And that they were compensation bills. They were signed and issued by the government on multiple different occasions to victims of bear cause injuries or fatalities. And I do have an example from the book because I was like, wow, that's kind of a lot.

I didn't do the money conversion, but I feel like it's a lot today. That'd be a ton of money. So, yeah, for example, the woman, her name was Margaret Constable. And in 1929, she was issued 10 grand from the government after sustaining injuries from a bear. So 10 grand in 1929 is quite a lot. Yeah, that's got to be like over $100,000, right? Okay, Cassie's the best of this. I don't know.

Google. Okay, I'm going to guess if someone is going to do it. It's close to $175,000 in today. Wow. Yeah, that's a lot. That's big. That is a lot of money. Would you do that?

Yeah, I'd do it. I think I would too. You get a cool scar, according to horse. It depends on the injury, I think, for me. That's true. Yeah, fair enough. Yeah. So in 1929, Albright,

left Yellowstone and became the director of the whole shebang, the whole National Park Service. And after his departure, things kind of started to shift a little bit. Beginning in 1931, the park began keeping a pretty detailed record of bear-inflicted human injuries, property, and bear control actions. So whether they were euthanizing bears, relocating bears, et cetera. And that same year, park managers recorded an average of 48 bear-inflicted human injuries and more than 100 incidents of property damage. So bears climbing on people's vehicles,

breaking down fences, trying to get to food. And the public bear viewing stations and feeding wagons continued until their decline in popularity started around World War II, which was for a couple different reasons. There was a huge decline in park attendance numbers, as well as kind of like a public outcry, as far as people kind of waking up to the dangers of, what was going on here, and they were kind of urging the park to stop doing what they were doing.

But it took a really long time for them to actually cease everything altogether. And plus, park biologist started submitting new guidelines for the park as well, kind of piping up as far as kind of what we touched on before, the implications of for the bears, not just humans. Do you know once they ceased feeding the bears, how the bears reacted to all that? Well, that's where Wes is going to step in. That's a great segue to my part. Thanks, Jeff.

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This is a job for Indeed sponsored jobs. Yeah, so my sources are two papers by my, my boss in Yellowstone, Kerry Gunther. He's the guy that's been kind of number one bear biologist in the park for a few decades now. He's been there for a while. And one of the papers is called Bear Management Yellowstone National Park from 1960 to 1993. And the second paper is called Managing Human Habituated. bears to enhance survival, habitat effectiveness, and public viewing. And that's by him and a number of other authors. So we talked about these problems in the first half of the 1900s. And as Daniel described and Cassie described, injuries from bears were really common during

those days. Feeding was really prevalent. And essentially during that time, almost every bear in the park was food conditioned to some extent. There are very few bears that they think didn't at some point or another feed on these human food sources. So during the 30s, 40s, and 50s, an average of 48 people a year were injured by bears, most commonly during roadside feeding. Most of those public sites, as Danielle mentioned, had been closed in the 40s, but in the 50s, people were still feeding bears by hand on the roadways.

Bears were still rating developments. They're getting into both front and back country campsites, and people were still getting bit left and right. So we're still averaging 48 people a year. they're getting injuries. Most of those injuries were minor, but Yellowstone had really strayed away from giving people wilderness experience, which is why people wanted to go to the national parks, and they wanted it to change.

So in 1960, park officials declared that, you know, enough is enough, and they started to actively remove bears that were responsible for conflicts. So removal, just so everyone knows from here on now when I say removal, that means they're euthanized or they were sent to zoos. but generally they were just euthanized.

Between the years 1960 and 1969, they removed 332 black bears and 39 grizzly bears. During that time when really the only thing they were doing was like a little bit more education, a little bit more bearproofing and removals, the average number of injuries fell from 48 to just 45. So it wasn't really a big decrease. And what happened in 1969, everyone,

that really changed the way that bears reviewed in national parks. First man on the moon. What else happened in 1969? I was like, do you guys, did you guys ever see Even Stevens? And they have that song, and I'll always know we went to the moon in 1969. Because like, I went to the moon in 1966. Yeah, I do remember that. Oh, yeah, I don't remember that.

No, bears were probably like, these humans are on another level now. Yeah, they're at the moon. We got to stop messing with them. What actually am I trying to get you guys to talk about in 1969, an event? an event happened in a national park that we all know about. Night of the Grizzlies. Night of the Grizzlies. Thank you.

So Night of the Grizzlies. And that really sent shockwaves throughout the entire park system, the park service. Everyone heard about it. Everyone realized that, like, I think up until that point, you know, if you're driving around in the parks and you have bears coming up to your window and they're just taking some bread out of your hand, maybe people are getting the occasional nip or something like that, you start to view these animals like their dogs or like they're these. domesticated, tame, you know, kind of sideshow attractions. And then when a grizzly or multiple grizzlies killed two women in one night in Glacier, it really woke people up. And that's not to say there hadn't been major attacks in the parks up until that point,

but they hadn't gotten the kind of national attention that night of the grizzlies had. So things really started changing. And a lot of education was done. And in 1970, a new plan was made that focused on completely removing and securing all human food sources that the bears were exploiting. So that means the dumps, garbage cans that weren't safe yet, any kind of food source they tried to secure. So the dumps were shut down. I think the last one was shut down in 71, and then even dumps that were adjacent to Yellowstone Park that were unsecured were secured. Garbage cans were bear-proofed, roadside feeding was strictly prohibited,

and the basic idea is that bears are going to have to switch back to natural food sources, and the ones that aren't willing to do it are going to be removed. So in the first three years of that program, conflicts fell from 45 a year to 10 a year, and that's just in three years. They reduced it by that much. And an average of 38 grizzly bears per year and 23 black bears per year were translocated to the backcountry. So they were moved to the back country to try and get them away from the roads. We've learned in recent years that doesn't really work. Yellowstone isn't big enough to take a bear far enough away to where it won't return to those places. But that was a technique they were doing. In that same period, those first three years, an average of

12 grizzly bears per year and six black bears per year were removed from that population due to conflict. How much has bearproofing technology on garbage cans advanced since then? I always hear that funny quote that, like, you have to find the perfect middle ground because bears are smarter than like the stupid humans who can't use them right or whatever. I'm getting it totally. I butcher it. It's true. No, that's true. Yeah.

Yeah. It's come a ways. And I think it's exactly kind of in the lines of what you're saying is like finding that spot where it's like very simple for. human to operate, but impossible for a bear to get into. And bears have been really instrumental in that whole process, particularly the bears at the West Yellowstone Bear and Wolf Center. Those are the bears that they like throw all the new technology to and the bears will try and open it and figure it out. And they're really good at figuring out things. So that's kind of how we test bearproofing is on those particular bears, which is pretty cool. These bears remind me of bear grills. You just drop them in the

middle of the forest somewhere and he finds his way to a road. Translocating bear grills. That's where he got his name, Jeff. All right. So human injuries from bears decline rapidly during this time. So do overall conflicts. And in 1983, another plan was established that would focus on protecting backcountry habitat for bears and ensuring they had undisturbed access to really important food sources.

So if you visit Yellowstone during times of the year, you're going to find out there's bear management areas. And those are areas where people are not allowed, or you're allowed on the trails, but you're not allowed to go off of the trail. And it's because there's some sort of important food source there for bears that they don't want disturbed. Anyway, that's kind of the new technique, is managing for bears, managing for wilderness, giving bears the space they need to not be always running into humans.

By this point, most of the bears that had still been trying to get into human foods had been removed from the population. and the bears in the park in the mid-80s had more or less been restored to a wild state. This brought some new challenges. In the 80s, bears that are no longer being fed are starting to exploit a new food source. And what they're doing is in Yellowstone, there's these big meadows that pretty much surround the roads wherever you drive, and those meadows are full of really great resources for bears. So in the 80s, bears started showing up in these meadows, looking for natural foods,

and naturally when there's a bear in a meadow right by the road, everyone kind of freaks out, everyone starts stopping their car in the road, hopping out to get photos. And we have kind of these first bear jams, like natural bear jams, where you get these huge traffic jams because a bear is visible. And this was somewhat of a new problem for the park. And what they started doing is really hazing these bears super aggressively. So a bear would show up, bear managers would show up,

and they would hit them with cracker shells or bean bags or a number of different tools and immediately get them out of there. And this doesn't really matter how far the bear was, whatever, they just didn't want to have to deal with these huge bear jams. This didn't really work because a bear that's being hazed in the moment will respond, but it doesn't necessarily learn and that hazing isn't going to overpower its need for a really great food source. Like it's just not going to stop a bear from exploiting good food.

So hazing works temporarily, but it's not really a tool to teach a bear. Anyway, I wonder if that'd work on Mike. Get him like a pizza and hook up some things to like shock him every time he takes a bite. Where would you hook him up? I think he'd still eat it all. I think you'd never. No, come on. No, but what would be, it would be like hot tamales.

Oh, I wouldn't. You wouldn't stop. You could take my limbs. I'd just use my feet. There's not much difference between Mike and a bear. Often. Anyway. So this continued.

They were hazing bears at a really high level. It wasn't really working. So in 1990, Carrie Gunther and the rest of the bear managers and wildlife officials of the park decided that what they're going to start doing was actually managing the visitors and not the bears. So they would go to these bear jams. They would make sure everyone was parking correctly, making sure the people were keeping an appropriate distance from the bear. and then do education once everything had kind of been cleaned up. And that method carries on through today. That is what people are still doing in the park.

That's what I did often as a bear management technician in the park is I would go to these bear jams, make sure the bear was a safe distance away, and then educate. And there still is some hazing. There are times when the bear is simply too close to people, or it's an uncontrollable situation, or the bears maybe getting close to potentially getting into some sort of food or reward or conflict, and then they are hazed, and that's still a tool that we definitely use. So I really want to quickly bring up like a story of my personal kind of experience in Yellowstone

that we've talked about on the podcast a bit already, but to show it in contrast to how things used to be. So this last year in May, there's this bear that was showing up every day right on the roadside of Grizzly, and it was during, there's still a lot of snow on the ground. There weren't that many visitors in the park, so we were just hazing this bear. bear, but allowing it to still be right on the roadway somewhat often. And then one day, we got some really credible reports that this bear had been fed, that someone had thrown some food out of their car and fed this bear, which used to be something that happened literally thousands of times every single day in the park. And this happened once in both seasons that I worked there,

I only found out about a bear being fed like that once. And it was like all hands on deck. We showed up. We haze this bear aggressively. Anytime it came near. any kind of car or person to try and establish this negative relationship with people. And we had to educate everyone in the area that that bear had been fed, what was going on. It was like a very aggressive response to a single feeding that had happened. And that just shows, you know, how much things have changed, how far we've come, and how much of importance we're putting on keeping these animals wild and giving people as much of a wilderness experience as possible when they come to a place like Yellowstone.

And I think that's really important personally. This last year I went to Brazil and I went to the spot where they had an Oscelot that was wild, but that they would feed to kind of get people to be able to take photos of it and stuff. And it felt it was cool to see an Osolat, but then it also just kind of felt like I was in a zoo. You know, it wasn't the same. And I don't want that for our national parks.

I don't want that for anywhere. I just think it's so, you feel now when you go to Yellowstone and you see a grizzly or a black bear, you feel lucky. You feel like you got to see something special. It's not like, hey, I'm guaranteed to see barrels wallow in trash and then, like, fall asleep. Right. Well, it's not a curated experience. It's, like you said, you feel lucky and you feel honored.

Exactly. You know, it just brings so much more meaning to wildlife experiences when they are, they occur naturally. Yeah. Totally. Totally. And it's a personal experience that you get that's unlike. any other experience. And I love that. I love that about our parks. And today, you know, in modern times, we average one bear injury a year, one human injury from bears a year. It's generally related to

grizzly bears now. Black bears typically aren't the culprits anymore. And we average about a conflict a year too. And a conflict is anything from someone feeding a bear to a bear getting into natural or to human foods to a bear destroying property. Those would all be classified as conflicts. So, like, it's really come a very long way, and Yellowstone has become a case study for just about everywhere else in the world on how to deal with, you know, these food-conditioned animals and put them back into a natural state. So it's a really mild progression. How is the population size compared to, like, the 30s? Bigger. We have more bears than we've ever had in the park.

Very cool. They're at capacity is what they think. They won't let any more in. No. Turn away. They're doing that like China one kid policy for the bears. Yeah. Exactly.

Out of curiosity, because you mentioned that translocating the bears after a conflict isn't working anymore within the park, we're noticing that it's not far enough away and they return to the same areas. When we're seeing conflicts or when you talk about you had to haze this bear severely after it came close to a person. are these bears euthanized if they have conflicts with people? Yeah, I mean, it depends on the conflict situation. So, like, for example, the bear that was fed, that's considered a conflict.

There was definitely talk immediately of whether or not that bear could stay if it was going to be removed or not. But because it was a younger bear, because it was only one time, and because we had such good access to that bear to try and teach it, we didn't do that. But it really, there's a lot of context that goes into that. Like if a bear, if someone's hiking off trail in the Hayden Valley, not making noise, hiking by themselves, and they stumble into a grizzly with cubs and she knocks them over, we're probably not going to do anything with that bear. Yeah. Because it's behaving naturally.

It's still considered a conflict, but it's not a bear that did anything outside of its normal behavior. But a food-conditioned bear almost certainly will be eliminated or removed from the population. So if a bear does seem to be food conditioned, they will take that bear out. And we are, you know, the lucky thing is Yellowstone's done so well that you have that ability. You have that surplus where like right now taking a grizzly bear out of that population isn't going to affect it negatively. It's still a really healthy population of bears. Of course, like that's still a tragedy in my opinion. Yeah, but it's not for like as far as the ecosystem's concerned, it's not like a huge loss.

Yeah. And that's an amazing accomplishment for Yellowstone. Yeah, and I think it's really important for people to understand what happens because I think these instances where you hear of people trying to pet the bears or feed the bears or whatever they're doing, it's coming from a place of love for the animal themselves. So if they're realizing that their behavior towards the bears is habituating them in a negative way, which could result in them being removed entirely, if people know that more, then people are going to be like, wait, maybe, okay, I don't want to try and feed this bear and get this really cool photo because then this bear's not going to exist anymore.

Yeah, and if they go forward with doing it, then you're just selfish. Yeah. Right. And it does a lot, it does a lot more harm than just that, too. It's not just that bear. If it's a bear that has cubs, often she'll teach that behavior to her cubs. And then also, these bears in Yellowstone are ambassadors for grizzlies throughout the world, throughout the country, especially. and when they do start acting, you know, when they start being rascals and they're like mauling people or breaking into property or whatever, people see that and they start to see grizzlies as a scourge or as a dangerous animal, which they are a dangerous animal, but they see them as being a detriment.

And that's the last thing we want, a bear souring public opinion. And that's why, again, like, why we don't really do translocations anymore, because if we've taught a bear in a park to have bad behavior, and to be food condition or whatever, and you move that bear to Gardner or to somewhere else in Montana or Wyoming, you're just moving a problem. Right. And it's just going to get into the same kind of behavior in those places. And those are places where it's probably going to run into more people and cause a lot more problems.

You are translocating in a sense just to the next life. Yeah. Right. I didn't see. Summer serve up the cookout classics, Heinz ketchup, and Kraft Singles. Every good burger needs a layer of perfectly milty cheese and thick, rich ketchup. We all know it's not a cookout without Heinz and Kraft. I did see what you're talking about kind of as far as public opinion in kind of happening in real time when I was in Washington. I lived in Washington for a few years.

And there has been for years discussion about reintroducing Grizzlies into the North Cascades. And it is just such a hot debate. And obviously there are grizzlies in the North Cascade range up in Canada, but we're talking about, obviously, into the United States. Because they're not naturally coming down. There's just the population isn't that robust. So they're thinking of, you know, trying to reintroduce them. And yeah, it's not really taking flight.

No. And we're running into similar things here in Montana, like in the Bidroots and other places. And it sucks because they're my, like, they're my favorite animal. They're an animal I'd love to see, or to a lot of their historic range. But it's probably not going to happen, to be honest. Step it up, California. You got them on your flag.

Yeah. What's not all about? Posers. Take them off your flag if you're not going to bring it up for you. Oh, man. All right. Well, before we move on to the questions, does anyone have any questions? Sounds like we moved on to questions.

Sounds like I'm having a stroke. No, I know that you mean, no. Yeah. No, I don't think so. I think we covered pretty much, I'm glad we talked about this because this has been something that, I mean, has been of discussion on our show a few times and just it is cool to see it laid out in a timeline like this of how far we have come and how much better it is for people and animals alike.

And if we could just keep it up and keep the education going, it can only get better from here. So hopefully it. Yeah. Yeah. I just, I love it. And especially because Yellowstone is my favorite. I mean, I feel like that's kind of like an unpopular opinion because people are like, it's the Disneyland of National Parks.

But I love Yellowstone. And so anytime there's a success story, whether it be with the bears or the wolves or anything, I just, I love it. Do you like the way it smells? The sulfur. The sulfur? Like the rotten egg. Yeah.

Just like in gin. Yeah. It's like gritty. Yeah. I always think about it. It smells. It smells great. We should make some, like, cologne out of, like, Oda Yellowstone. Or a candle.

Just get some, like, hot springs. Hot spring's candle. Yeah. Boil some rotten eggs. I just wanted to really quickly just say, like, I was so thrilled to work for Cary for the last couple years, Carrie Gunther in the park just because someone like him is at a front row seat and has been really instrumental in a lot of this stuff. And it's really cool to think about this generation of biologists

that are kind of starting to retire now or age out of their careers. Like the huge shift that we've seen in the last 20 or 30 years in how we view wildlife and how they were really the people that ushered that in to trying to like make things more wild again. And, you know, good job. They all deserve a pat on the back. Round of applause. Yeah.

When do you think we're going to send a bear into space? That's probably never. Yeah, I feel like there's other animals that, I mean they have sent other animals, a monkey, a dog. I feel like we peaked at a horse. Didn't they send a horse into space? Did they? Oh, my gosh.

For what reason? Science. Who knows? I feel like there's an office in NASA that's just like decides what weird shit to send into space next. Let's get into our questions. I don't know about that. horse. That's fine.

So for the second half of this episode, we got a list of questions. Mike, I'm going to turn it over to you, buddy. All right. This is the inaugural questions for the interviewees segment of tooth and claw. So we're going to start off with a couple of softballs. Softball questions here. We're ready. First one. Feel free to talk over each other. I would really want to get some emotions going here, you know. Fight. So free to fight is what we're saying. Yeah. Last question is, Will you two fight and we'll see who wins? Okay, but the first question is. Cage match.

Cage match between you two. What is your favorite animal and why? Okay. I guess mine, I have, I don't know. It's so, that's such a softball. That's like the hardest question there is. There's so many cool animals. I love maimed wolves.

I think they're the coolest looking animal there is. I think they're super. super unique and I just, I love them. I think they're awesome. These questions are binding too. They can't change. This has been my answer for a long time, so I'm comfortable. No, that's a good answer.

That's a unique choice too. Yeah, I like that. For mine, okay, so I remember in fifth grade, I had to do a project on an animal and I had to pick one. And ever since I had to do a deep dive in cheetahs, I've always thought that they are very interesting and really cool. I think as soon as I learned that they can run up to like 80 miles per hour, that was just it for me.

I'm just like, wow. That cemented them. Especially because I'm like pretty slow at running. I'm like, wow. That's interesting that you liked them before you learned that. Because I feel like that's what makes everyone like it. It's easy. They find out how fast they have.

Yeah. Do you want to know something crazy is we, each of us three, listed our 10 favorite cats, wild cats. and West didn't have Cheetah, even in his top 10. I know, it was a big, I'll admit, in retrospect, they definitely should have been in there. There's a lot of cool cats, though. The thing for me, though, is like, I know this is stupid, especially coming from a wildlife biologist, I almost see them more like dogs than I do cats. Like, I just don't, they don't seem very cat-like to me.

And they even have, like, their claws and their footpad shape and everything is more canine, almost and the way they run and everything. So for whatever reason, I kind of have cheetahs in their own little category. It's kind of like main wolves. You both picked these outliers. You both picked dogs. They're not related to... If you mean wolves is cats?

Well, no, but they're not related to, like, they're not closely related to wolves. They're not closely related to foxes. They're their own thing. And it's just like, I don't know. They're unique. Great picks. They're good answer. We have to have Danielle on for Mained Wolf episode.

And Cassie's going to be on for a cheat episode. There we go. Okay, next question. What is your least favorite animal and why? Oh, my God. That's a hard one. I don't have a least favorite, but I do have one that I think is really weird, and it kind of creeps me out to look at.

Can I say that one? Yeah. Have you? There's no rules here. Okay. A star-nosed mole. Oh, yeah. They are so creepy.

Like, their little, like, tentacons. faces and then Yeah, the little butthole thing on her face. Yeah, they do. They look like a butthole. And I'm just... So for that reason, she's out.

I'm telling them you said that. It looks like the people in Lastime. Yes, they do. Yeah, they kind of do. Yes. Oh my God, you're so right. They're probably the inspiration behind it. They got fungus.

They're going to be the things that started all. Good. Mine has got to be, and I feel bad saying this, but alligators are crocodiles. All right. Whoa. I feel bad you said that too. I'm just, I.

We're disappointed. I will say I am. Just mute Danielle real quick. I know. It's like I'll see myself out. I just, I'm scared of that. I'm so petrified of them. Yeah.

I'm so afraid of them. Like I just, so they're my least favorite because I don't want to see one. I don't want to be in the vicinity of one. I have been. I faced my fear and I've, you know, I have been. They got one of the scariest faces. They lost.

I lost. From a statistics standpoint, that is probably the large animal you should be the most afraid of, especially crocodiles, because they do kill more people than any other large animal. So I think it's not. Facing your fear. I think of that one, too, it's like one of the only animals where it could go wrong. Because like a bear, it's like, oh, that doesn't look scary. But you, like, look at a crocodile.

It's like the longer you look at it, it's like, this. scare year it looks awful. Yeah and I will say I'm not proud of this I'm not proud of this but I have visited the alligator farm in out here in Colorado have you ever oh I've been there too yeah yeah and I've been I've interacted with alligators there and I was just like that was it I was done I was like I appreciate you I don't want to ever do it again yeah yeah that's fine you know we don't need to argue them we do that plenty on the show already they are the last dinosaurs though and they're pretty cool Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. Next question. What's your number one bucket list animal that you want to see in the wild? That presumably you haven't. I guess it's probably inherent in the question that was asked. But yeah. I have two, but again, I guess I'm going to bend the rules because I have technically seen both of them in the wild, but not in the way that I wanted to. So the two would be a wolf and an orca, and I've seen both in the wild, but only fleeting glimpses.

and from, let's see, in Washington, I saw the orcas. You want like a good viewing. Yeah, I saw the orgas. Through binoculars, they were like, I knew what they were, but it was still a strain seeing through binoculars because I was on shore. And then the wolf, I saw a fleeting glimpse up when I was in Yellowstone. I saw more grizzlies when I've been to Yellowstone than wolves, and I want to see him in action. Well, next time you're in Yellowstone, you let me know, and I'll get you on to some wolves.

Thank you. I can almost guarantee it. Yep. Next year. Here we go. It's like, we'll book the trip right now. I know, it's like, and okay, what month works best for you. And it happened to be there tomorrow.

I guess for mine, I really want to see hippos. I would love to see hippo in the wilds. Great. That's an easy one. Really high for me. Yeah. Easy? Go to Columbia.

Yeah, serious. Pablo Escobar. Heal. Yeah. Hipples are easy. That's right. You go on like any, any safari, I think, in Africa, you can pretty much, or where they're live. Like in South Africa, we saw a bunch. I think you'll see some hippos when you go there.

Yeah. Cool. I'm really excited. I want to see one really bad. Easy for me is like walking out my front door and maybe a half hour later I might run into one. Hippo takes a little bit more of like a... You're right. I shouldn't say easy. But you say like, wolves are like, sure. They're not elusive animals is what I'm saying. Right. I just want to see them in actually like because I worked, so I worked with wolves for many years at the Colorado Wolf and Wildlife Center. and I interacted with them, saw them every day, 10 hours a day. But kind of like we talked about in the bear portion of this episode, not that they were domesticated or trained or whatever,

but they were habituated. There were certain animals I could interact with. It would just be different to see them, you know, doing their thing in the wild. And that's, yeah. For sure. Definitely. Well, we're going to make it happen. Lovely. Can we turn the question around on all of you and ask what your animal that you'd want

a see in a while that you haven't seen. Sure. There's no rules. No rules. Oh, no. How about this? I'm going to try and tell you what Jeff is. Totally unprepared for this.

Jeff will try and tell you what Mike's is and Mike will try and tell you what mine is because we've had this question before. A challenge. Jeff's is a panda. Okay. Yeah, probably. Panda would be pretty cool. Wes is a panda.

Yes. You're both pandas. Mike's is a. Mine's. between panda and snow leopard but i think panda yeah yeah yeah my no leopards are getting easier jaguar jaguar jaguar jang war man panda i think yours is a tiger i feel like yours is a tiger it had to have been tiger right yeah toy yeah so you can finally get a no that's crocodiles you want to see a tiger in the wild that's scary i know it is scary we just we just did an episode on tigers like we

We just recorded it. It hasn't come out yet, but we just talked about tigers and how scary they are. T24. Yeah. By the time people hear this, it probably will have come out. Yeah. Yeah, serious. Yeah.

Yeah, I guess so. You know, there's really safe ways to see tigers in India. I saw a couple when I was over there. They're wild tigers. You're still with this. I'm still here. Yeah. Survived to tell the tail.

Maybe like out of a helicopter with binoculars. Maybe that's like first step. Okay. Next question. You said this place was steps from the water. We just haven't found the steps yet. How much did we save? Enough.

Enough to get lost. Or you could book a stay with Hilton. Welcome to your oceanfront room. Just steps from the water. The Hilton sale is on now. Book on Hilton.com or the Hilton app and save up to 20% to get the stay you expected. When you want savings, not surprises.

It matters where you stay. Hilton, for the stay. What's the most impressive animal that you think you could take in a fight? I will preface this where I don't think I can fight any animal. So like a worm. Yeah, we'll say like a squirrel. Maybe I could take down a squirrel.

Okay, but let's work up from there. So we've got squirrel. Do you think you could take like a house cat? No. No, house cats are so scary. I have been mauled by one too many house cats. Are you losing to a dog cat? goose? Yeah, a swan, especially, a swan. So it is a squirrel. Squirrel is your top, your ceiling.

Yeah, right. That's squirrel. Honestly, I would say probably like a feral cat. I could probably take, I have taken a feral cat before. I have the scars to prove it. But I can't go anywhere than that. At work. We worked as vet techs and cats, man, maybe they're my least favorite animal, domestic cats. In a veterinary hospital. Yeah. But yeah, that was just because I've actually done it. Yeah, a feral cat. My cat just walked by and his eyes got all big when you said that.

When you said that they're your least favorite. He was like, what the f***? I said maybe. I said maybe. Who do you think would win in a fight between you two? Me. Yeah. Really?

I don't know. I feel like. Quaking easy. Yeah. I don't know. I feel like I would be more scratch. happy and Danielle would be more direct. I have the rage to go behind it.

Yeah, she is the rage. Yeah, nice. I have the survival instinct. Next purge. Next purge you guys are fighting. All right. Yeah. Okay, next question.

What animal do you think resembles each other the most? I have an answer for Cassie. I know what Daniel is going to say. Go ahead. A quoka. I knew you were going to say that. That's a good pick. Mike and Jeff, those are those little, I don't know if they're rodents,

they're on this island off of Australia and they always are smiling and like people take selfies with them. They're very happy beaming looking. They're like called the happiest animal in the world or something is there? Oh. Doesn't Hogo Zoo have? Yeah, they got the big old puffy cheeks. And they smile. Those are adorable.

Okay, that's a great pick. Yeah, that's Cassie inside and out. That's a great, I would love to be a quokka. That's a, it's very flattering. Daniel's going to hate my choice for her. I will accept it no matter what. I think you most resemble a cat. What kind of cat?

Probably a house cat. Ooh, why? Because you're very intelligent, you are independent, and you accept attention on your own terms. There it is. Wow, that's well thought out. Yeah. I'll accept. Great picks, both of you.

Yeah. Okay, let's get to these ones. What is your favorite national park and why? I think what, Daniel, you already said, Yellowstone? For sure. Yeah, why is that? So that was the first national park I ever went to that I remember. It was just a really pivotal moment for me.

Just like so many other people went there with my family, like my mom, my stepdad, my sister, and my grandparents. And that's where I picked up the death in Yellowstone book. This was like 2010, 2011. It was a while ago. But I just, I had always loved the outdoors. but for some reason that trip just changed everything for me as far as interest in wildlife conservation and outdoor recreation and just being in awe essentially of the wild world. And I just loved it so much.

And yeah, it just impacted my life a lot. I mean, we've been to so many different beautiful places. It is hard to pick them if you're going off of like your favorite place to visit. but it's just because of the sentimental value, I think that's why it's my favorite. Totally. It's an amazing park. That's a great pick. My favorite is Grand Teton National Park.

And it's neighbors. Neighbors right there. It was, I lived there for a while and I loved it there. I just loved the Teton's. I loved the landscape. I loved how dramatic of a change it is from, I mean, it's basically flat and then you have these massive mountain range that's right there. And then all the wildlife, it was the first time I saw moose. It was the first time I saw black bears. It was the first time I saw grizzlies. It was just like

that park was a first for a lot of my wildlife experiences. So I think that's why I love it so much. Cool. Great picks. Right off that, if you could visit any national park that you haven't been to yet, Which one would you choose? Glacier. I know Cassies. I was just going to say. A thousand percent. And I think that will probably be my favorite when I go.

That one is, I really want to go stay at the Granite Park Shillet. Yeah. Yeah. That would be like, but every time I look at the website, it's totally booked up forever. You can, yeah, you can just go like hang out for the day, you know? Yeah. Do the Highline Trail and hang out there for a bit. I don't want to camp there after researching the night of the game.

Chrisleys. I'll stay inside happily. Once you're there, it's only like four miles out. So it's not hard to get out. Oh, that's not bad. Yeah. I think, cool. I think mine would be, it's got to be one of the parks in Africa, South Africa, like around like Kruger. I just, Africa was my first bucket list destination to go to. And I keep saying Africa. Like, obviously it's a whole continent. But I just, I remember when I, I was 16, 15 or 16, I heard of like the volunteer trips that you could do with the wildlife and all that. And it was around the time I was deciding to get into like veterinary medicine and wildlife

conservation in that realm. And I was like begging my mom to go. I was like, please, like I was sending her all this information. And she was like, yeah, right. But, you know, jokes on her. Now I'm going this year. Yeah. It took me a while.

But yeah, I definitely want Kruger would be awesome. Somewhere in Tanzania would be great too. Victoria Falls is like where I would go. That's another one of yours that you really want to do. Yeah. Victoria Falls is really high on my list. Yeah. Okay, let's get into some weirder questions now.

What do you say? What do you say to that? I love weird things. Yeah. Okay. So is, or maybe we should say are, is or are ice cream and cake one dessert or two? I'm going to say answer it and then I'm going to give you context for how this originally came up. So give us your answers first and then we'll do it with context too.

It depends. It is one dessert if you get an ice cream cake. Agreed. Yeah. It's a good loophole. And it's a great loophole. Whoever combined ice cream and cake together was just a genius. I'm going to say there too because I like ice cream and I don't really like cake. Oh, interesting take up.

Look at that. That's a wrinkle we have. haven't really encountered. So, Wes, do you want to give context to this? Yeah, the way this started was like me and Jeff were at home and I said, hey, Jeff, if you could only have one dessert for the rest of your life, what would it be? And he, you know, Jeff's clever. And so he, like, was like ice cream and cake. And I knew that he was being clever because he was squeezing two desserts into one. And we got in like a big fight about it to the point where we like had to be like, okay. Like, we got angry at each other, like, where it was like, we got to stop talking about this.

It's a hot debate. You got mad at me instantly when I brought it up on the early podcast. Yeah. Yeah. It was still, it was still a little raw. You know, it's become a bit of a talking point on our show. And sometimes people make really good points either way. But I'm still sticking to it being two in the context that I gave him.

But I do think it can be one sometimes as well. I met with a PR firm, and they told me if I just phrased it as cake a la mode, then I would have a lot stronger case. Did you have to like... You met with a PR firm? Did you pay them for that advice? Yeah. All right. All right.

Interesting. Okay. Next question. Would you rather have... So you're both saying two desserts. It's not ice cream cakes, not the question. Yeah, it's cake and ice cream, Cassie. We didn't get a full answer for you.

Oh, yeah. We should put the pressure on. Oh, my gosh. All right. Well, then they're two. two different desserts if you're not saying ice cream cake. Hell yeah. Okay.

All right. I knew we picked you two for a reason. Would you rather have ice powers or tree powers? Tree powers because I hate being cold. I, that one's hard because selfishly I would love ice powers. Like you could do some cool stuff with ice powers. But I think tree powers would be really cool because you could help save planet and stuff. But selfishly, I could build like ice bridges.

The world needs more ice. Yeah. That's true. The world does need more ice. The world also needs more trees. This is a hypothetical, Cassie. You can be selfish. I guess what does tree powers for sure? Or I mean, tree powers entail. Well, tree powers, which I'm a big fan of, means you could have any ability of a tree that you can imagine. So you can shoot wood things. You could make fruit, any kind of fruit that you want. You can just produce it in any point. You can spread trees throughout the world. Pretty much, pretty much think of Groot from Guardians of the Galaxy. And that's like what tree powers is. You could like perfume yourself. And I also think that, you know, with all of the advancements that

we're starting to learn about trees and their like underground communication network and stuff, like trees are cooler than people give them credit for. So I stick with my original answer. Great answer. Trees underrated, Danielle says. That's right. Maybe you haven't considered yet, though, that with ice powers, you can kiss a person and make the inside of their mouth cold, which is Jeff's number one.

Oh, my God. That's my number one benefit to ice powers. I will say. Like, you can use ice cubes without ice powers, but it just be a lot more convenient if you had ice powers. And you can make your own snow cones. That's true. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

And I'm going to save the polar bears. Yeah, save the polar bears. But that's reason three. Yeah. Well, I am a big advocate for cold kisses. So one of my dogs, his name is Blue. He is like a big kisser. He'll kiss you on the cheek.

And I love when he sticks his head out the window when it's really cold. And then he brings his head in. And I'm like, give me a cold kiss. Give me a cold kiss. There's nothing like a cute little kiss from Blue when his tongue is nice and cold. There you go. Wow. You could make your pillow kind of cold every night too before you go to bed,

which would be really nice. That would be nice. Yeah. You could wear winter clothes in like a hot location. No, it looked cool. Yeah, if I'm hot, I don't need an AC or anything. I can just like ice power. But Cassie, you're always cold.

I'm not. But you could do that with tree powers too. Yeah. You could create a canopy above your head and give yourself some nice shade. And wind, maybe. Yeah. And a mango. Yeah, that's true.

That would be nice. They both have their benefits for sure. They do. Truly. I think I would just, I would, I just, imagine myself, like, shooting out ice bridges and, like, sliding across them to get places. Like, Frozone? Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, that's what I picture. So this has been incredibly successful segment. You've got me thinking in ways about these questions that we've been talking about for close to a decade with this ice and tree power one. Thinking in new ways about them. Okay, last question. Would you rather spend one year traveling the world free of charge or go to the moon free of

charge? Traveling the world. Time favorite question. Traveling the world. For sure. Okay, that's wrong, but that's fine. I respect your opinions. You can see the whole world in one trip.

Yeah. Do you everything of that? We haven't brought this up on the podcast yet. Here's my argument against traveling the world. I think you're right, actually. I think it's like you get to experience culture in all these amazing locations, and it's like who gets to do that also. But you also, if you go to the moon, you transcend humanity.

You're like one of 12 people that ever gets to step on the moon. It's not, my argument is that, like, that isn't something that you can buy. It's something that like... Yet, you can buy it, though. I mean, all these... Kyrie Irvin says that you didn't actually go there. I know, you can't buy it yet, but, like, for me, like, it's within your power to travel the world for a year. I know that, like, most people, that's, like, never, you know, it's not actually within our power.

But, like, it's possible. but to go to the moon is actually kind of impossible. What would you do on the moon to be like the first person that ever did this on the moon? I don't know. That's a good question. And how long are you going to be at the moon? Yeah, I don't. You get to spend a couple days up there.

You get to do a few things. Yeah. See, my argument for that is like I feel like it would be super cool like for the lead up. And it's like great. And then like once you're there, you just look at Earth and you're like, all right. Can't breathe here. I don't. I definitely think.

I think traveling the world is more exciting. I just think going to the moon is a singular experience that, like, you can't get anywhere else. And that's why I would take it. Has anyone ever shot a gun on the moon? I don't know. I definitely wouldn't want to be the first person to shoot a gun. Let's just bring some violence to the moon. I think my issue with going to the moon is I wouldn't want to be, like, in the rocket ship.

for that long. That is a big part. I would just, I get motion sickness a little bit and like, so says the woman that is going to drag me through Drake's passage to get to Antarctica. Oh my God. I get motioning. I'm going to be throwing up the entire time.

I'm just like prepared. I'm notious just hearing Drake's passage. That's all right. Well, that's it for, yeah. Let's go to Jeff. Four bonus questions. Oh, right. Oh, I forgot. Okay, yeah. But they're real quick. So first is favorite starburst color.

Oh, my God. Red. Red. Red. Wow. For both. Wow. Okay. Red's a good color. Wait, hold on a minute. Respect. Weren't we going to talk about animal attacks scenes because... Oh, yeah. Oh, I just kicked it. I'm dumb. I really put a lot of thought into this. I'm so glad you brought this up. Sorry. Sorry to cut you off.

No, that's great. No, that's on me. Okay. Last question. for me at least. Favorite animal attack scene from a movie or TV show. Okay, so mine, I changed the parameters a little bit again. Okay. Because mine isn't a traditional animal and it's a tie either between the attacks in the predator movies or a quiet place. Because when a predator rips someone's head off and takes their whole spinal column with them is so dope. It is cool. And I would say that's an attack.

They get outside the box. Yeah. And they are kind of an animal, I guess. Yeah, I was going to flag that as like not being an animal, but then your reason was so good that. Yeah, we're all like, uh, uh, okay. Okay. Yeah, they got a point. Just rip out this pineapple.

I'm a big fan of, uh, the chicken scene and family guy that goes on for like seven episodes. where the Peter and Chicken Fight. Yeah, but if we're talking about like real actual animal scenes, I think the Revenant is really scary. And that one is a good one to watch. It's probably my favorite too. Yeah. Okay.

You can go on. Bonus. Mike, are you sure you got them off? I just still caught up on the Predator thing. Yeah, I still think I got to watch. Everyone's watching the Predator as soon as we're doing. I rewatch the Predator. movies annually.

Which is your favorite? I love the first one starts. Just like the most masculine like opening ever to a movie. I like the original hands down is the best. I don't really, as they've gone on like predators and like even the AVPs and stuff. I kind of did like prey. I loved prey. I liked prey a lot.

And I was on the fence of whether or not I would, but it doesn't come close to the first. Yeah. for sure. I think I saw the first when I was like 14 and when it ended, I remember like saying to myself like, that was the best movie I've ever seen in my life. That's what I say every time I watch it too. Yeah. Okay.

Okay. All right. I'm going to move to my last three questions I have. This one I just added in. Do you like throwing rocks off cliffs even if there's an osprey within like a mile? Not if I'm going to get a ticket. Yeah. But it is fun to throw a rock off a cliff, right?

I do like throwing rocks off cliffs. I do it again. I know what it is about that. I'm extremely afraid of height, so I don't get close enough to the edge of a cliff to... You can't get to the edge of a cliff to... You can't get to the edge. Because it's only satisfying if you watch it fall. Right, yeah.

I like to see if you can hear it hit the ground. Do you like the Mona Lisa? I think it's overrated. I was very shocked when I saw it in real life. It is my whole life. I thought that the Mona Lisa was this huge portrait painting that I was going to be like, wow, this is massive. And then I remember I walked into the Louvre and it was tiny.

It was so small. But her eyes did follow me and I thought that was cool. Yeah, I'm a fan. Is that a hotly debated topic that we're like on a row of? It's a recent one. Recently. Jeff's decided to wage war on the Mona Lisa for some reason. Wait, what?

I said Jeff's decided to wage war on the Mona Lisa for some reason. I think it's overrated. Yeah, I agree. He's got beef. I like other art more. All right. And then last one, favorite Nick Cage performance. Oh, God, I hate Nick Cage, so.

Oh, come on. Oh, no. Mike. But I would have to say National Treasure, because I love Treasure movies. I have an answer, but I forget the name. name of the movie. Hold on. Or Ghost Rider?

Have you been watching Outer Banks? Oh, Ghost Rider. Oh, Ghost Rider's a interesting fit. Okay, can I just tell you Outer Banks? I'm on a kick because I also love metal detecting. Like, it's a fun hobby. And now that I'm watching Outer Banks as of three days ago and I'm now on season three,

it's been a whirlwind. I'm like. John B. John B. Wow. Yeah. He's, I love John B.

The third season lost me a bit, but it was kind of fun show. I only started, I'm only on the first episode of the third season, but yeah, it's like renewed the treasure hunting bug. I'm like, get a dust off my metal detector. Danielle just got me started on it, so I've only seen three episodes. It's kind of, yeah, it's not really, I mean, the storyline's intriguing. It's kind of dramatic, but. It's nothing you can, like, say, like, if someone asks you if it's good, it's like, that's not

the right word. Exactly, exactly. But you can definitely watch it and be entertained. If I was 20, I would love it. I would be so into this show if I was 20. Okay, wait, I feel like I'm a little older than all the characters that you're supposed to relate to. So I'm just like, it's all right. And it's so funny, they're supposed to be 16 and they're very clearly in their 30s.

That's my favorite. Okay, I change my answer before we move on and Cassie can say hers. For Nicholas Cage? I hope it's a Nick Cage movie. I think it is. It's been a very long time since I've seen it. Face Off. Oh, there are a great answer.

That's my favorite. That is, right? And John Travolta? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. It's like I'll watch Face Off and I'll say, that's the best movie ever made. And then I'll watch Predator and I'll be like, no, that's the best movie ever made.

Just a teeter-totter my whole life. And then they'll look at the Mona Lisa and be like, nah. Nah. Nah. Nah. All right, Cassie, finish us out. I liked the frozen ground. Did you see?

Interesting. Oh, that's a time about the Alaska serial killer. That is a good one. I don't think I've ever seen that. That's another one that when we drove around Alaska, my mentor would tell me where all of his victims were killed. It's comforting. It's like, and over here.

Sight scene tour. Mike sent me the funniest Nick Cage clip. Yesterday. What was that from? From Matchstick Men when he's trying to get his prescription filled again in the pharmacy. It's just a classic Nick Cage. Saying something normal and then just screaming the last word. Yeah.

It's the... Have you ever been dragged out to a sidewalk in Pissed Blood? I don't know if you've seen that clip, but it's a classic Nick Cage. No, but say it the right way. We'll play it. We'll splice into the episode. Hey, buddy. Ever heard of a lie?

Hey, have you ever been dragged to the sidewalk and be until you... Pissed blood? Oh, have you guys, actually, now that I'm thinking of Nicholas Cage movies, have you seen the most recent one? It's the unbearable weight of massive talent. Yeah. And it's Nicholas Cage, like, making fun of Nicholas Cage being famous. I thought that was funny. Yeah.

I feel uncomfortable all of a sudden, like I'm in a room full of Nick Cage fans. And it gives me the same feeling as being in a room full of Nickelback. I knew you're saying. What are your thoughts on Nickelback? I'm pro-Nichaelback. I don't like their music, but I kind of have a weird soft spot for them where it's like, like they just had been doing what they've been doing and they don't really give a shit that everyone hates their music.

And I'll be honest, the never made it as a wise man song, that song, that's a good song. Animal, I would have to say animals. It's a sing-along song. The problem with that song, though, I always slip into the Creed voice whenever I'm singing along to that. It's the same voice pretty much. What does that sound like? That kind of gets me like nickel back. I think like all the jokes that we've gotten from look at this photograph are worth it.

Yeah. Like they contribute to society. I appreciate this so much because I am a nickelback fan for sure. My Spotify emailed me and sent me their tour and was like, since you're such a fan, you're their door. That's amazing. That's so flattering. Yeah, I think that's our only like hotly debated. Wow, you guys need to get in more fights. I feel like we do. I know. That's like it is. It is a fight that we get into occasionally. Sounds sweet. Like we have like a tree power, ice power thing brewing. It's just this tip of it right now. See, here's the here's the thing with us though. Like, except for the nickelback thing,

which has been going on for many years because one time she tried to bully me into going to a Nickelback concert. Which she did go. I didn't. She tried to get our whole hospital against me. So basically she was waging more. I know. It was brutal.

It's like a mutiny. But other than that, like when we have a disagreement like over ice or tree, we're just like, okay. Anyway. Well, we'll all go on a road trip sometime and you guys will see what it's like to get into like a six-hour fight about how useful cows are or some bullshit like that. That's a fight I would be down to have. All right. Well, that's it for questions. Thanks so much for coming. Again, your podcast is called National Park After Dark. You both have done such an incredible job with it. I think, you know, I don't think I'm going out on a limb here to say it's one of the biggest outdoor focused podcasts in the world. And it's every episode is fascinating. You guys have a really, really engaged fan base. We're all fans. So if you haven't, if you're sleeping on National

Park After Dark, go check it out. I highly recommend it. They've done some really cool episodes about wildlife if you want your wildlife fix. So do you guys have like an episode that you recommend as a starting point? Well, you covered Night of the Grizzlies. So everyone here has heard that one. Wildlife base? Is that? Wildlife base. Yeah, caught in the crosshairs that Danielle did. Caught in the crosshairs would be the first one, I would say. Yeah, and that's about Wolf 06 and Yellowstone. Great. Also, too, if you haven't heard us on their podcast, we have an episode on there. You guys do.

Kind of. Yeah. Yeah, go check it out. Get your feet wet. We'll add it to our, we'll re-ad it to our Instagram and stuff too when this comes out so everyone can go straight to it. Cool. Cool.

Great. Thanks. And good luck with all your trips this year and everything else. We'll have to do this again sometime soon. Yeah. Yes. And let's all go on a, let's all go to Yellowstone or something together. It's lots of that.

That was so fun. We should totally do that. Let's do it. Okay, great. Cool. Thanks, guys. I'll send you our flight information in like an hour. Perfect.

Awesome. All right. We'll see you. Well, thanks for listening to everyone. I love you guys. We love you. Bye. See ya.