Tooth & Claw: True Stories of Animal Attacks - Bonus Episode Unlocked - Macaw

Episode Date: April 18, 2022

We're releasing two of our bonus episodes this week while we're busy at work on some upcoming exciting stuff. Mike takes the lead and puts a fresh spin on some old classics while really squeezing every last drop out of a small macaw incident that happened down in Florida. Wes and Jeff get into it about what a good pirate is versus a bad pirate, and Hillary Hankey, the owner of Avian Behavior International, joins the show to provide some much needed expertise on the matter.  ~~ To advertise on the show, contact us! ~~ Tooth & Claw is brought to you by QCODE. Support the show and get access to an extensive library of exclusive episodes like this by supporting the show on Patreon or joining the Grizzly Club on Apple Podcasts. For the latest updates on the show and all things wildlife, follow us at toothandclawpod.com and social:  Instagram: @ToothandClawPodcast Twitter: @ToothandClawPod Wes: @GrizKid Jeff: @jefe_larson Mike: @mikey3ds                          Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, patrons, welcome back to another bonus episode of Tooth and Claw. Today, we're talking about the Macaw. We realize that none of us are really authorities to speak on this subject matter. So Wes actually made a call to a friend of the show, Hillary Hankey. She is from Avian Behavior International. She comes in for about 15 minutes to really drop some cold hard truths about parrots and specifically macaws near the end. So look forward to that. She's really cool.

Oh, and also a quick little plug. Everyone upon joining Patreon should have received an invite link to our Discord server. And it's turned into a really cool community. So if you want to hang out with us and with everyone else that's part of the tooth and claw club, I don't know. We've got to come up with a better name than that. But yeah, it's just a cool place where you can share your thoughts, submit news stories you want us to talk about. A lot of people are sharing what they're reading, what they're listening to, pictures of their pets or what they made for dinner. It's just turned into a fun little place, so I'm done.

Let's go. Are you? My intro us? Yeah, I would like to do that very much. Hey, patrons. Welcome back. Hi. Hi, everyone.

You signed up as a patron, Jeff? Yeah. Nice. I didn't know how to listen to them. We signed up my dad as a patron and, of course, signed him up at, like, the tiger level, and he can't figure out how to, like, change it. So if we have like our longest lasting patrons for sure going to be our dad because he has no idea how to unsubscribe himself. Thanks, dad.

Yeah, thanks dad. Even though you're probably not even listening. Yeah, there's no way to do. Don't know how. Don't know how. We should get him in on one of the, uh, the tiger tier AMAs and be fun. That would be really fun. Yeah. Get him riled up, you know, I know how to push his buttons.

Well, yeah. Here we are. I'm doing it. I'm ready to go. You guys have. How are you going to get him riled up? Me? Yeah.

Oh, man, I just talk smack about his Huckleberry pie. You know. Probably would. He'll go wild. He's sensitive about his pies. He'll just get sad. I don't want to do that. He always tells us he wants feedback on food that he cooks, and then we actually give it

to him. He takes it pretty personally. Oh, yeah. But, you know, sometimes he needs it. Yeah. So what's new, guys? You want to talk about anything before we launch into this fresh new hell I've prepared for you on?

Yeah. Russia invaded Ukraine. Oh, yeah. That's pretty scary and sad. I don't like that. Yeah. You know, I don't think people are here for our political commentary on that, but I had a question. Well, you ask what's new.

That is true. All right. Well, should we talk about animals? Yeah, let's talk about some boids. All right. Boids? Some exotic boids. Okay.

Talking boids. I want to talk about macaws today with y'all, if you don't mind. I don't mind. I've heard of those. Interesting choice. They're cool. I knew that coming in, and after my research, I think even more so that that is a fact. What do you say to that?

I agree. I think they're really cool. I don't think it's a fact. That they're cool. Most people think they're cool. That doesn't make it a fact. Fair enough. I think it's an opinion.

Yeah. It's about as close to a fact as an opinion can get. Listen to this story before you cast too many aspersions on my opinion. Okay. I'll let you know if it's a fact after this. I just want to set up the stage real quick so you guys kind of know the backdrop of what's going on when this macaa attack took place. So this happened back in 2010 on Singer Island down in Florida. Basically just imagine West Palm Beach down Miami, and that's really what we're looking at here.

So what's that like, what's that like, Wes? You got an opinion on that? It's warm. I've been down there a lot, actually. It's humid. Lots of, it's very vibrant. There's lots of culture down there. There's people who are into dancing.

There's lots of art deco architecture. Is Will Smith's song Miami? A pretty good picture of what it's like. Yeah, it's exactly what it's like. Bad Boys? Yeah, the movie Bad Boys. I think people got a good mental picture. Yeah, very astute observation.

There's manatees in the water probably. Yeah, everywhere. All over. It's, yeah. Okay, so they're at this really nice hotel resort restaurant, and it's a young couple with a one-year-old infant, and they're just having a really good time enjoying the food. What do you think that's like, Jeff? I'm sorry, I'm patting this story out because there's just not a whole lot going on in this one. I'm wondering how much fun the one-year-old's having.

Depends on the restaurant and the food, I guess. You think the one-year-old cares what the food is like? Probably not. The one-year-old's about to have a lot less fun. However much fun it was happening before, it's going to be having less fun. He's about to get bird-fed food? Yeah. Okay.

I'll just re-rack it real quick. So a young couple and their one-year-old baby is enjoying a nice dinner together when all the sudden tragedy strikes. The family was seated right next to an exotic poolside bird enclosure, just enjoying their food, when all the sudden a three-foot-tall blue-and-yellow macaw or blue and gold macaw, swooped from its perch, clamped its beak onto the child's index finger, and, quote, in so doing, traumatically amputated a portion of plaintiff Gavin Williams' left index finger,

according to the complaint. So this kid sued. Baby fingers are small. Yeah. So it's not that. Those bones are nice and soft. You can just cut right through them. Yeah, I could have done that.

Yeah. So this kid pressed charges. Yeah, I actually really like the detail that they called him. plaintiff Gavin Williams as a one-year-old. Okay, we're going to end on that cliffhanger. You guys are not going to, you're going to want to stick around to hear the end of the story. But first, we're going to get into some facts, just some general macaw facts. And I broke this down.

I'm doing things a little bit different from how we usually do them. I broke the fact category down into three separate parts. This first one is just kind of like the bare bones facts of your everyday macaw. Every day, there's several different macaws. You already said one. Which one was that? That they're cool. Yes.

Okay, so that's number, fact, number one. So where do they live? Their natural home is central and South America. That's wrong. Mexico is part of North America and they live there. Are you talking about blue and gold macaws or all macaws? So this is macaws in general. Okay, because blue and gold macaws only live in South America.

and I'm pretty sure just Brazil, but I'm not positive about that. You're right, Jeff, you are right that Mexico is, I'm not, you know what, I don't even care to engage. You can count Mexico's Central America. That's kind of how I was thinking about it. It's North America. All right. Mexico is whatever you want it to be, Jeff. Okay, so there are, depending on the source you're checking, you have anywhere from like 15 to 20 listed species of macaws.

the largest is the highest inth macaw. Not only is it the largest macaw, it is the largest parrot. So that's pretty cool. That's really cool. They're like... They're huge. I've seen them in the wild.

They can grow up to 40 inches tall, so that's like a little bit over three feet tall. Their wingspan is about four feet at the longest. And they weigh a little over three pounds, which is like, it's hard to like... It's like hard to contextualize that. They're mostly feathers. So it's like, that's a lot of weight.

for a bird. Right. A cool thing about them, too, is they were almost completely extirpated in the wild, like they almost went extinct. And then they had some really cool breeding programs in Brazil, and a big thing that helped, too, was just people in the Pontanol putting up, like, boxes for them so that they had really safe nests. And the population's really rebounded, and they're doing a lot better now because of, like, some really concerted good conservation efforts from people in Brazil. Cool. Good job, Brazil. The smallest macaw. Do you know what that one is, Wes?

I bet you don't. My guess would be the military macaw? Ooh. The, it's the Hans Macaw. Han. Hans? H-A-H-N. Okay.

Hans. Yeah. It's kind of like Hans. Fritz. Fritz, the macaw at, what's the Tiki, enchanted Tiki Disneyland place? Oh, let's not, yeah. We'll not step on the category just yet. Yeah.

Because I know you were going, man. stepped on it. Okay. So macaws, obviously, have really bright plumage and feathering. Why is that? Stuff. I was going to ask you, Jeff. Why do you think that is?

I know with birds a lot of times it's like to attract a mate. The male duck, or like male ducks are really brightly colored to, like, impress females. And fox. Yeah. So I don't know. Does that. But like, female macaws are pretty colorful, too. They are.

Yeah. That doesn't track. So from what I could gather was that. It's kind of counterintuitive because they're so brightly colored, but those colors are kind of like naturally occurring down in their environments. So like... Like camouflage? Yeah, it's basically just camouflage because they're really brightly colored flowers.

You better about that? It's not the best camouflage. I know. I was going to bring that up, but I don't know. I will say like when I saw highest synth macaws, they're up in the tops of the trees. And as you're looking up through the trees and there's like blue sky behind them, they are really hard to see. But then I've also seen green wing macaws, which are like red and green and blue, and they stood out.

Like, to me, it was very easy to see those. So I don't know the, I don't know the answer to that. But that's interesting if it is a natural camouflage thing because it didn't seem very, they didn't seem very camouflage to me. Yeah. And it's not like they don't have predators either. There's like, there's plenty of animals out there, like bigger birds, even some like land dwelling mammals they get after them. So like, yeah. It'd probably be useful to have better camouflage than they have, but I don't know.

Like, I'm glad they do. Would a house cat go for a macaw? Probably. Yeah. A interesting predator that I learned when I was in Brazil, I went to this place called Buraco da Saranas. Nah, I can't remember. Buraco das Araras.

And it's like a big hole in the ground that just has like tons of macaws nesting all over it. And there, it's like a huge depression. and there's macaws all over the rock. And there's two cans around there too. And apparently the two cans are huge nest predators of macaws. And they'll swoop in and like eat the macaw nestlings. And they just like, they just hang out there and just eat tons of macaws. And that was really fascinated to me that two cans will eat like baby macaws and macaw eggs and stuff.

Yeah, I thought they just liked fruit loops. That's so funny, Jeff. So what they do like to eat. So other birds like eat them. Baby fingers. Baby fingers. Fruit? They love fruit.

They really like fruit. They like nuts a lot. Seeds, flowers and leaves. Just like really, honestly, anything it sounds like that is in their natural environment? No, they don't eat meat. Except for this one, this baby. Spoilers. But this one was eating meat a little bit.

We don't even need to get to the end of the story, but we will. So I guess one more. Actually, we have a ton more facts. Strap in boys and girls. Macaws can talk, and it's like might be obvious to say this, but it bears repeating that, like, they're not actually talking. They're just mimicking sounds. Right. I have a quick story with that.

In Guatemala, I needed to meet someone, and I was like in a hurry, and I rung their doorbell, and I heard, Ola and I just waited forever And I rung again And I heard Ola And I like rang 15 more times Until I was like

Shit, they have a parrot That's freaking saying Ola Every time I ring this doorbell No one's home And then I like had to like leave That's pretty funny That's great Did you hear about the parrot

That some wife killed her husband And the parrot When they went in The parrot was saying like Don't fucking shoot me. I did. And they were like, okay, so he said that right before she shot.

That's really funny. Did they call it to the stand, do you think? She was probably, like, mean to that parrot, and it was like, oh. Oh, I got her in jail. Okay, so this is a funny thing I saw while I was gathering up some facts. It was like this whole wind up to a singular bullet point to like cap off the thought. But basically it was macaws can sense danger by a. their vision and intelligence.

To avoid predators, they, and there's only one bullet point to explain what they do when a predator is approaching, and it just says, fly away. So that's their... That's their response. Whoever is writing the copy for that article is just, like, over their job. Oh, that's great. Yeah. Good strategy, though.

I know, so I know like a tiny bit about them that they do like flock together and stuff too. When they have a predator approaching like a bunch of birds will all flock together in like a tighter unit. That's cool. Yeah. Okay. So let's broach this subject here. So pirates. Pirates have been kind of like apocryphly made famous for having pet parrots.

And while that is like mostly a myth, it did kind of occur in the way that like pirates in the new world, basically we're in it for the money. It's like not a shock or surprised to anyone to hear me say that. But parrots were fetching really high prices back in Europe because like parrots from the New World were basically a status symbol at that point. And they just pay really whatever the pirates were asking if they brought some parrots home. So like the pirate, they hung out with parrots. They might have kept one as a pet every now and then.

Yeah. And like there's no, there's no like definitive statement saying they didn't. And, you know, they spent a lot of time around them. And, like, they're really social birds. Find a buyer for it or something. If the world were like a sleep number mattress, everything would adapt for your comfort. Because as your life changes and your body changes, sleep number mattresses adapt and shift to give you personalized comfort night after night. And now everything's on sale during our Memorial Day event.

Save up to $1,200 on mattresses for a limited time. To experience a whole new world of comfort, visit a sleep number store or go to sleepnumber.com. Sleep number to a good life sleep. Okay. That wraps up part one of macaw facts. Okay. You guys ready for part two? There's two more parts.

These ones will go a lot more quick. Oh, man. So facts part two. This is the game. It's kind of a game. I just want to see what you guys think. So I want to ask you how much each of these facts would help them to be a good pirate. You guys ready? Yeah.

Okay, so fact number one of facts part two. This is just, I can't believe I've done all this. Go for it. We're on board. So number one, macaws mate for life. True. Do you think, do you think that's a good trait for a pirate? These are all true. Oh, for being a pirate? Yeah, these are all true. Okay. I think that's a bad pirate quality. Yeah, that's a bad pirate. You got to be like a little promiscuous if you're a lot permissuous. You have a girl at every port. Yeah. Or a boy.

That's one strike against macaws being good pirates. Fact number two, macaws are strong biters. I think that's a good pirate quality. Yeah. Yeah. Pirates are probably missing a lot of teeth. But I think just the fact that it matters that much. I think the fact that they're just kind of tough makes them good pirates.

Okay. So that's one four and one against. I want to go a little bit more into the bites. So I know we've talked a little bit about like bite pressure and PSI. and how it's not really like an exact science. But here's some numbers anyway. So like the strongest macaw bite comes from the green winged macaw. And it's estimated to be a PSI of around 2000, which is insane.

Yeah. And just like to give some comparison, a Rottweiler bite is around 330 PSI and a human. Actually, how much do you think a human bite is? 900. 600. You think, wait. Oh, wait, wait, wait, sorry, PSI. Yeah, sorry, I should... No, you did say that.

I'm going to say 150. Ooh, that's close. Yeah, so 125-ish is the estimated average. So basically, the green-winged macaws, like, 20 times stronger bite than a human. Wow. It was wild. Most macaws fall more into, like, the 4-500 pressure, PSI, pound, whatever it is. Okay, so the beak, of course, is...

made up of bone and keratin, which is mostly the case for birds, right? Yes. And even though they're good at biting, they are known as the gentle giants. Macaws are known as the gentle giants of the pirate. Pirate world. Yeah, it makes sense. Pirates are pretty ruthless. Yeah.

They aren't, they're not like super aggressive or predatory. Like, they're not predators. They don't go off in like hunt. I would say that's a bad pirate quality. Okay. So next fact. Macaws are loud and travel in flocks. of anywhere between 10 to 30 birds,

according to the San Diego Zoo website. Is that good or bad? Pirates. Is that a good pirate? Yeah. Loud and boisterous and just traveling around. Most macaws like to take baths. Bad.

Bad pirate. Yeah. Okay. I don't know. I would want that pirate. I would want my pirates to bathe. I would want them to, but they're not famous for, like, being hygiene. Clean and, like.

I want, I'm saying good. Okay. I've lost count. A good pirate baths, in my opinion. You know, you're squirters with each other. I didn't realize this is like our ideal pirate. I thought this was what we thought pirates were in general. Well, I think we can have a different answer.

Okay. A good pirate likes to bathe sounds like a children's book that moms buy their kids when they like need help better behaved. We should write that. Where were we? Okay. So macaws live long lives. Baving.

Long lives. Muccas live long lives. Up to 60 years sometimes and in like extreme cases over a hundred, which is like incredible to me. Not pirity. I think that's a good pirate if you live, like bad pirates die quick. Good ones live a long life. I think I'm kind of silent. That's true.

That's true. But now we're changing. Okay. Never mind. I didn't know we were talking about like a good versus bad pirate. Wes, you're taking it too serious. I just don't know what to say anymore. It's a stupid category. It is. We're almost done, I promise.

This is so painful. We're nearing the end. Take it however you want to. I wanted to bring up their long lives because I compared and contrasted other bird species and was pretty shocked at how much longer parrots seem to live comparatively. So like bald eagles live maybe 20 years. Tucans are like 10 to 20 years. Peregrine falcons are about 15 years. Pigeons only live like six.

Do you have any ideas as to why that is? I didn't really see much science behind it. I would guess with like pigeons and some of those smaller birds, it's just because they're so susceptible to predators and other threats that that's like their lifespan. But it's not necessarily like how long it would live in like a perfect environment. Like I bet they would live twice as long as that if they were in captivity. But as far as like pigeons in the wild, a lot of stuff kills them and eats them. but I think a lot of stuff kills parrots too

so it doesn't really make sense to me that they are so long lived a lot of it could be diet too like the fact that they're eating really good healthy food they're eating fruits and nuts and all these other kind of like whereas a lot of birds are eating insects or like whatever they can find

it might be a little bit harder for them a long time a parrot is an expensive pet so I bet you people like pay more attention into detail if they have a macaws a pet as opposed to like a parakeet that our cousin steps on or something yeah but they live that long in the wild too like even in the wild they live for like 50 60 years oh really yeah so it's pretty wild that they can live to be a hundred years old

yeah that just really blew my mind okay so last fact last pirate fact macaus are able to reach flying speeds of up to 56 kilometers per hour and fly up to 15 miles per day before returning to their roosting locations. So, Jeff, do you think it would be useful for a pirate to be able to fly with speeds up to 56 kilometers per hour? Is that a good pirate or bad? I'll say it's good. Okay.

Oh, we made it through. So that's it for part two. Part two. This one's good. You guys are going to like part three. All right. This is, I'm naming this one. It came from Cora.

because inevitably when I'm doing research for episodes, I come across just like the dumbest questions and answers on Quora about the animal I'm looking up. Yeah. So I just want to run over really quickly a couple of these. What's Quora? Quora's like a landing page where you can ask a question and then hopefully an expert will like answer it for you.

Oh yeah, yeah. I'm subscribed to the Lord of the Rings Quora and it is daily entertainment, the people that ask the questions and like, how dismissive these Lord of the Rings experts are to whoever asked them. It's great. It's an amazing little community they've got. So these are a couple of questions and answers that I stumbled across. So question number one, can macaws bite your finger off?

I don't know. So this is the, I'm going to, I'm just going to say this fact is not the correct word to be using here, but it will lead us to talking about more like factually correct. information. This is just like a stupid person answering a stupid question. So this person says in response, yes, they can bite clean through a broomstick if they wanted, if they wanted to. Fingers are as easy to bite through as a carrot. Humans just cannot overcome the mental barrier, which is why humans can't bite their own fingers off. I've heard that. I've heard that before. That's not the first time I've ever heard someone saying.

We just can't, we just can't do it because of the mental barrier, but it would be so easy to bite our fingers off. I'm, I'm not saying it's true, but I'm saying I've heard that before. It doesn't seem true to me. To me, it's pretty easy to bite through. Yeah, but like, think of like a chicken bone that, that thick. I feel like you can bite through it. Not like a carrot.

Yeah, it's not as easy as a carrot. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying it's as easy a carrot. That's what the whole thing is. But I'm saying that we could probably. you could. I think I could bite off my finger if I needed to. Like that one guy in a 127 hours?

Like in one bite? Yeah. If I just like bit it and ripped, I'd probably you could do it. At least my pinky. I don't know. Okay. I've heard that before, but it seems real. That's a really funny answer.

Like, I wonder if all that dude's answers just turned into that same point. Well, I love how, like, confident he sounded too. Yeah. Or like how pissed off he seems about it. People don't accept that we can do that. Oh. Well, add me to the pile of people that don't accept. So next question and subsequent answer.

What do macaws eat? This person responds. Mine eats exclusively garlic. But I know a lot of people give them seeds too. It's not a good pet owner. So, okay. Also, do you say subsequent instead of subsequent? Subsequent.

Subsequent. I say subsequently and subsequent. Interesting. As, you know, they're different. Oh, did West just get poned? Maybe. I don't know. Is that correct, Mike?

Subsequent. You can say either way, subsequently or subsequently. But whatever. Okay. So here's the next question. Only feeds garlic to their macaw. Yeah, bad idea. So we went over what they eat before.

We don't need to retread old ground, I don't think. Next question. Are macaws better than, dogs. And this person answered, they are a little better at flying. Just a little bit. I wish I would have, oh man, I didn't write down the usernames until I got to this last one, because this is the

dumbest one. So this last question is from user Papugi. And he asks, does parrots can fly? And user Lilby goat says no. Mike. We need to make this a recurring segment. So Cora's questions are good. So parrots can fly.

Just set the record straight on. We're going to be talking to a parrot expert later. We should ask her if parents can fly. I have a question for Cora that we should put on. Who wins one-on-one in basketball, a parrot or an airbud? That's a good question. Is it? I think Airbud probably.

Airbus is cash, but a parrot could, do you think a parrot could carry a basketball to the hoop? Well, it would need to dribble. Oh, never mind, then. Yeah, it also needs to dribble. Do you if you're flying? Maybe not. Is that traveling? That's a good point.

This is a good question, actually. It is. We'll write it down and remember. We'll add it to Gora. Okay, so let's get back to the story. What do you say? Oh, finally. That was a detour and a half.

Okay, so. I can't wait to hear what happens. So this, I'm just going to tie this up with a couple of quick quotes just to put a bow on it and get through it quick. Yeah, what did the kids say? Plaintiff Ryan Williams, Gavin, the one-year-old, that's his dad. Plaintiff Ryan Williams, after passing Gavin Williams to his mother to care for him, then attempted to locate and recover the portion of the finger that had been traumatically amputated to be able to attempt to save the finger for medical reattachment.

I wonder if that works with babies. So basically, he wanted to find the piece of thing. You want to save the finger and put it back on there. Right. We followed. Quote, the blue and gold macaw parrot retained the amputated portion of the finger in its beak, returned to its perch, and proceeded to chew the amputated portion of plaintiff Gavin Williams' finger until it was entirely consumed.

So Gavin doesn't have a finger anymore. Yeah. Dang. Or at least part of it. Half a finger, yeah. Yeah, did he eat all of his finger? It sounded like it was just a portion. Gavin, if you're out there, let us know, buddy.

Sorry about your finger. You didn't know what you're doing. Should add stronger bones. Should drink more milk. Okay, so. It's always drinking at that point. That's it. That's a good story.

I'll be honest, Mike. When you told us we were doing macaws, my expectations were low for the story. and for even just like the explanation of biology. I get. And I've been tickled by both the story and your biology. Good. Yeah. I'm glad I could serve up a little bit of fun.

I was excited to hear what you had. That's why I like Jeff more than you, Wes. Oh, he's a little suck up. Do you have... Oh, he's always... What? I like a suck up. I like a good sucking up to.

Do you have anything to say as far as conservation is concerned, Wes, or, like, how they're doing? I know most of them seem to be not doing great. I know that there's, like, a few that are in a lot of trouble, like Spix macaws, we've talked about a little bit. They're extinct in the wild. Highest macaus, even though they've rebounded, they're still, I think, considered critically endangered. I know there's, like, some that are really widespread and doing pretty well. I'm pretty sure blue and gold macaws are in that list. where they're just least concern.

I think green wing macaws are least concern. Scarlet macaws, I know their populations are shrinking. But the rest of them, I don't really, I don't know. And I know there's some really, like, small subspecies of macaw that are really in a lot of trouble. It seems like any animal, really, that makes its home in the Amazon is on a downturn. If you're living in, like, tropical forest or subtropical forest in, like, South America or Latin America, you're probably in some trouble.

because a lot of that forest is being developed and a lot of it's being turned into pasture. And it's just, it's hard for a bird that depends on that forest for life. What, I might be jumping ahead a little. What type of macaw do you guys think is prettiest? I personally think highest inth macaws are the prettiest. Even though they're kind of the most boring, I think they're so beautiful. What do they look like? They're all blue and they have a little bit of yellow around their eyes and then like a big black bill.

and there's something about them to me that's just really beautiful. I was trying to decide which one I liked the most when I was just scrolling through pictures of all the different species in preparation. And honestly, every single time I switched to a new picture, I was just like, oh, that's probably my favorite one. They're so cool. They're all so beautiful.

I like the harlequin. Yeah. I just think they're so pretty, even though it's like the classic one. Mike, is that the end of your story? that's the end yep okay well i like i feel a little bit like misprepared for this episode like i don't i don't know a ton about macaws i know a little bit i've seen highest sense macaws i've seen green wing macaws i've like learned a little bit in my time in brazil and as a biologist but because i don't know a ton about him i kind of wanted to invite a friend who happens to work

with macaws and a lot of other bird species it's hilary hanky from avian behavior international and she also host a really cool podcast called Aven Behavior Podcast. Yeah, thanks for having me on here, y'all. Hilary, I was just explaining that I don't know anything about macaws, really, aside from really that they're the biggest parrot species and that they're found in Latin America. So outside of that, I don't know much. So could you tell us a little bit about macaws? Yeah, so they're the biggest parrot species and they're found in Latin America. Okay. That's it. That's all you know, too. That's Oh, I know. Fascinating.

So there's so many different species of macaw. Some of them are what we call like equator. So that would be like within five, maybe 10 degrees of the equator, which I think is really interesting because that would mean, and maybe I'm playing it fast and loose with the word interesting, but it means that their lives kind of revolve around photo period, which means a lot in North America because like their like sexual urges can have a lot. lot to do with like how long the day is for instance. There's a lot of other things that that go with that. But I find that pretty interesting. There's a lot of different species though, for instance,

like that have a really wide range, like the blue and gold macaws. I noticed that Mike is kind of a fan of blue and gold macaws. They have a really wide range throughout South America. They're my particular favorites versus like your hyacinth macaws are only found in the pontonaut. region, your leers macaws are super rare and they're in an even tighter space. And then like your green wing macaws also have a wide range. But then like your scarlet macaws, their range is getting smaller and smaller like in Central America. Okay. So yeah, they're just a really neat parrot. They're huge like honestly speaking. Like when they're on your arm, you just don't even realize like the heft of like a hyacinth macaw just like feels really big. I mean, Wes, you remember

that like random pet store in Missoula that like they would like you handle all the animals. They had a macaw there. And it was like the most intimidating thing for me when I was a little kid like those beaks are no joke. You could hear it in the entire

store too. Like you'd be on the far end of the store and it sounds like it's right next to you. And they had a scarlet macaw. They had a military macaw. They had a blue and gold macaw. They had a bunch of macaws. But the scarlet one was the really vocal one. Yeah. What, which macaws do you keep at your training center?

So I have a hyacinth macaw. That's Leo. He's like sort of the self-appointed PR representative. They're beautiful. Yeah, he's a really neat bird. And then I have two green wing macaws. And then I have a brother and sister pair of blue and gold macaws. I have a military macaw as well.

And then I have a blue-throated macaw, which is not really well known. They look a lot like blue and gold macaws. They're from Bolivia. they're not from the rainforest. And that bird is actually a really special bird to me. He came from someone who breeds macaws only for conservation. And he had like an infection as a baby had to be hand raised. And so she wanted him to go to an education facility as opposed to like, you know, be put back in the breeding,

the breeding group. And then she passed away not too long ago. And so he's just like a really special bird. Yeah. He went off to charter school and then, and then his parents died while. is gone. It's funny. When you're like naming the types of parrot, I appreciate it when the name is just the colors

they are because then I can like picture what it is. Like the blue and I'm like, okay, yeah, I know what those look like. But then like the military parent, it's just like I have no idea what the picture. Yeah. It's just a beautiful like really green bird with like a red beret like right here. Yeah. Oh, cool. Yeah.

And the hyacinth, they're pretty much all blue. And they have a black beak with like a little bit of yellow, right? Yeah, they have yellow around their eyes and then their chin. And then the cool thing is, is their tongue also has like a stripe of yellow. So it looks like a caterpillar. And their skin is yellow also. So like my hyacinth is molting right now. And so like he has a patch of feathers missing on his neck.

And it's just this bright yellow patch. And he looks like such a dork. That's super cool. So is there. anything you can tell us about their behavior? Are there any, like, stories you have from working with them that are memorable? 100%. So, like, one of our things that we try to, to do is really, like, capture their natural behaviors as far as, like, being a free-flighted, you know, education-based organization. And so we're always trying to capture their natural behaviors. But what that really looks like a lot is just,

like, their level of and their capacity for intelligence. So these guys are really, really smart. Our birds, all free fly. They free fly as a group, but the way that they get along together in the air is completely different than like, you know, we call it macaw drama, like, you know, on the ground. So like so and so doesn't get along with like the red guy and the blue guy hates everyone except for the red guy. You know, it's just like it's really, really dramatic. It's literally like the days of our lives. And it's so, so dramatic. But because they're free flying birds, they're going to come into contact with predators in their area, like, all the time. And when that happens, they just, like, flock together and work together.

And they'll just, like, kind of, like, course throughout, like, the whole horizon, getting rid of, like, a peregrine falcon, just a red-tailed hawk. And to see them, like, really work together is one of the coolest things I've ever seen. They have, like, a lot of different ways of working in their environment and using their environment in ways that we just never really realized. So like, for instance, I follow a couple of photographers on Instagram who go to like the Pontinol or go to Columbia, one of my dream places. And this one guy was like, oh, I was so lucky to see macaws, a hyacinth macaws mating in the wild.

And I was like, yeah, I saw that too. But the farmers whose organization I was part of to see them in the wild, they told me that they actually mate when you get too close to their nest. as like a defense strategy. So, yeah. Yeah, like we're really I'd stay away if I saw. I guess sorry.

Sorry, I'm out of here. I'll give you your privacy. Yeah, deep eye contact and just like robust maybe. That's great. But yeah, like it's just, it's really crazy just like how intelligent they are. And they're just like really.

manipulating you when you don't even like understand what's going on. So it's, it's pretty cool to feel like you're actually being, you're being manipulated without. That's cool that yours are like kind of frenemies, but then when there's a problem, they just like bond together and are suddenly like a cohesive unit. But then when they're all on their own, they kind of hate each other. Like that's a neat little tidbit. I really like that.

Yeah. It's, um, it's not fun to be part of sometimes, especially like in the spring. time the military macaw we call our harlot because like she know like her her boyfriend is um balboa the green wing macaw and she like you know they they mate aggressively but then she's got eyes for the the um the hyacinth macaw as well and it just creates this like not awesome dynamic for everyone so um it's it's just really fascinating though because we just sort of are like you know i mean we're trainers we're behaviorists we love kind of like working things and seeing how it works you know just how it kind of shapes out but at the end of the day it's just really fun to watch them kind of interact in a

really natural way totally yeah do you guys have any questions for hillary uh why why is columbia the place you'd want to go like i'm assuming for birds yeah for birds the architecture like in cartagena is absolutely gorgeous um from what i see but the bird life is just incredible like the She's a big cokehead too. Yeah. You didn't know, but I'm a mule. Hillary, have you been bitten by a macaw before? I have.

It's something that we just try to avoid in general as a kind of like a progressive training paradigm. You know, a lot of people are like, oh, take the bite, you know, and never let them see that it hurts. It freaking hurts. Yeah. Their bills are huge. Yeah, they can break a finger.

It's sharp. They could really, really. really do some damage. And so one of the things that we really work on when, you know, first of all, when we do get bitten is we don't want like whatever we do to be reinforcing for that bird. So I'm just going to, no drama, just kind of put the bird down and just like walk away. I might punch a wall. I might like just get really like, oh, man, I can't believe that happened. But one of the worst times that I actually got bitten, I had two macaws just like playing on either side of my lap and they were just like sitting there and like goofing around

and all of a sudden body language changed immediately it was springtime I could see that one of them was about to go after the other one and it was like way too close and so I just like put my hand right in between them as one was going after the other and he bit me right through my fingernail and I have not felt pain like that in a really long time that would probably last of while to, like, grow your nail all the way out to get rid of it. Yeah. So it was probably like the worst thing. And I've been, I've been bitten by, you know, I've been bitten by, Andy and Condors. I've been bitten by a lot of birds. But that one I, I, Andre, my husband had me, like put it under cold water. I didn't want to go to urgent care. It was like right when the

pandemic was starting and I didn't want to do anything. Oh, yeah. And I felt like. It's tough to go to the hospital. Yeah. I felt like the blood just like drain out of my face and my face and my, Like just everything like I was just like I'm gonna I'm gonna pass out. Yeah we had like for a long time we had a Sunday conier and just it like with its tiny little bill when it bit it heard really bad like it wasn't fun and it made you kind of freak out. So I can't imagine with the with the macaw like their bills are probably 20 times bigger. It's just got to be super painful and they can crack what like they like all sorts of nuts and stuff that they can just crack open with them. Yeah. The last I heard and you might have to fact check me on this, but I read somewhere where the hyacinth bill has like 1,500 PSI.

It's like a grizzly bear. It's super powerful. And when I was looking that up, and this was a while ago, but the bone in their like in their mandible that's responsible for that is one millimeter or maybe even less thick that allows for that amount of pressure. It's incredible. That's crazy. Yeah.

Birds are little, little miracles, you know? They sure are. They sure are. I feel like macaws are really expressive. You know, they make these little movements and they can like move their feathers in different ways. And they're, to me, they're really expressive. But when you get around people that just aren't used to birds in general, and they're

used to mammals with their lips and their eyebrows and, you know, the ability to growl and all that stuff, they're just like, oh my gosh, this is an alien. I have no idea what I'm seeing. I can totally see how it's just like birds scare people a lot. So I can understand that. And just funny. Like they, they for sure have a sense of humor.

So. Yeah. Well, before we let you go. I tell real jokes in English. Again, yeah. I wanted to ask you, you obviously have trained some macaws. You have all sorts of like permitting and training and education to have been able to do

that. As far as people out there that might be considering a macaw as a pet, do you have any advice or warnings for those people? Yeah. So they're always louder and they always need more space than you think. So I know a lot of people who've kind of gotten into a jam because they, you know, they didn't realize exactly that the bird was not only loud, but also just noisy. So loud is volume to me and noisy is the amount of time that they're going to be loud. So that can be really disruptive, maybe not to you, but to your family. So it can be really intrusive if your bird. you know, lives in your family room where someone just wants to, you know, watch TV or whatever and the bird needs attention. Um, so there's that. And then as well, so they, they do need space. It's kind of like a horse where you wouldn't buy a horse or whatever, however, you know,

you come across a horse. Maybe Mike knows. I, I understand. Mike wouldn't buy a horse. I wouldn't know that. You know me so well. Um, but you wouldn't get a horse just because you have like, you know, a stall available. You need a, stall. You need a pasture. You need a place to ride it maybe if that's what you want. So a macaw is the same way. Just because you have like a corner in your living room for a cage doesn't mean that that's all the bird needs. And so those are just the kinds of things that we think about. And then also just really making sure that your family is is understanding of what is involved. Like I would be the biggest hypocrite in the world if I said that McCaugh like don't get a macaw as a pet. Obviously like I am

obsessed with birds. I've had birds in my life since I was like eight or 11 years old. I can't even remember at this point. So I'm obsessed or 11. Eight or 11. Not nice. One of those. They live a really long time too. So it's like it's almost the lifetime commitment. It sounds like if you're yeah. Or if you're a dad and you just let him outside one day. Yeah. Our dad accidentally let our pair go. I have one last question. Yeah. Did Harley Quinn from the Batman comics or the Harley Quinn McCaw get its name first?

You don't. It's a Harlequin macaw chap. I thought Harlequin was like, it was, isn't that just like a color? Like the clown costume or something like that? There's a bunch of Harlequin. There's like our Harlequin romance and Harlequin. Yeah, Harley Quinn is. And then Harley Quinn is based off of that.

We can help you out with that once Hillary's off. They call me. Yeah. Pop culture is not my, is not my forte. Oh, yeah. We were going to ask what your favorite pop culture pair was, but I guess we'll refrain. Oh, well, I mean, I could obviously. Okay, we'll allow it.

Yeah. Okay. Let's hear it. My favorite pop culture parrot is obviously Iago. Yeah, great pick. Great pick. All right. Well, Hillary, thanks so much for calling in and for providing some expert wisdom to us. Because I was out of my depth here. I don't know much about macaws. So this was very helpful. I'm thrilled to be able to talk about birds anytime. So, you know, you guys, you know, pass my number around.

If anyone wants to talk about birds. Yeah. And if you want to hear, if you want to hear Hillary talk more about birds, it's the avian behavior podcast. It's a great podcast. I've listened to a number of episodes, and I've always been very entertained, and I come away learning a lot more about birds. So it's a great podcast. We don't tell any small penis jokes on it. Yeah, perfectly. There's no penis jokes. I'll still give it a drop plus. I can get a couple of us. Yeah, Jeff will be sure to sneak some in.

Yeah. I'm sure people will still check it out regardless. Thanks, Hillary. Thank you so much. Bye. All right. Well, that was great to hear from someone that actually understands the animal. And Hillary truly knows a ton about birds. I visited her training center a few times, and she has a lot of really cool birds and just is an amazing trainer and then just has a wealth of knowledge to.

So we'll probably be talking to her again at some point. Yeah, I'd like to. She's really, really nice. All right. She should do our categories? Let's get to categories. Yeah, let's do this. Okay.

So I asked you both, as always, to prepare your favorite parrot. I wasn't going to do favorite macaw, but there just aren't really that many macaws. You don't need me to explain this category. We make it up. We're fast and loose. I picked the macaw. Okay. Well, then give it to us, Wes.

Me too. I picked the macaw Jose from Walt Disney's Enchanted Tiki Room, which is maybe my favorite ride at Disneyland. Because you just sit in there and you listen to macaws, like, singing a bunch of different, like, really stereotypical accents. And it's, like, maybe a little offensive even. but Jose is the one who's kind of the ringleader and introduces everyone and just a fun little weird, kitschy piece of Disneyland. So that's my favorite, macaw and parrot. That place is like, it's the perfect half time kind of, like middle of the day. You get a little tired.

You just want to like sit down in a cool place. I love the, yeah. Mine's the same, actually. Fritz, though. I picked Fritz. Oh, the German one. Yeah. He's funny.

Yeah, he's the red and white one. if you didn't know, Jeff. Mine is a blue and gold macaw from Pirates of the Caribbean, and it's Cotton's parrot. Cotton had his tongue snipped, and he has his parrot who talks for him. And then I was trying to look up what the parrot's name is, and all it said was Cotton's parrot and Pirates of Caribbean attacks a cop. So this parrot from the movies attacked a cat.

cop and I like to think the cop was like killing the innocent people. Yeah. Yeah, that sounds like true pirate behavior. Okay, listener questions. Just for warning on this one, there might be some spoilers coming up. So maybe we'll just like say the movie beforehand and if people haven't seen it, they can just like skip ahead a little. Okay.

But James asked, you joke a lot about spoilers. Have you guys ever had a movie or TV shows? show really spoiled for you, mine was the sixth sense. So then, this is a spoiler coming up, everyone, if you have not seen the six cents. Right at the beginning, my friend just goes, oh, he's dead the whole time. Oh, come on. So really, really mean. Do you have an answer to that, Jeff? I just am thinking, it wasn't even like a real one, but it just bugged me a lot. So our oldest brother, Cyrus, I grew up reading all the Harry Potter books and he didn't read them. But when the seventh one came out is like this huge deal. Everyone was super excited. It was the sixth one. He went and like,

no, the seventh. So he went and bought it and then he just like read the very ending of it. He didn't read the start. So he's like the first one to like know what happens at the end. And then he texted me and like some cousins and was just like Harry Potter die. I just read the ending I didn't read any else And like I knew he was kind of making fun of Like teasing

But I also knew that he like read the ending So like still kind of bugged me you know I thought it was the sixth one and he said Dumbledore dies Uh uh okay Yeah he is kind of a jerk When it comes to that kind of stuff Like he doesn't

He doesn't understand like fandom And that people care about these things And it matters to them Anyway I don't I'm trying to think think of one. I recently spoiled, like me and Jesse recently have gotten really into watching Amazing Race. And I get really curious about couples on The Amazing Race, like whether they're still

together after the Amazing Race. And we were watching an old season. And I was really into it. And we were probably like halfway through the season. And I usually don't Google anyone until afterward. But I was like, surely I can just Google these two and figure out if they're still together without figuring out if they won or like what happened to them in the race. And I Googled their names and immediately it said, winners of season, whatever. And it sucked because then the rest of the season, I just, like, wasn't into it at all,

but I still had to finish it because I hated the team. So it sucked. Like, I spoiled it for myself. That's too bad. You remember when I spoiled the end of two seasons ago, I spoiled for you who won the Great British Bake Off? Yeah, you did. Yeah, that was bad.

It was immediately after you told me not to do that. Yeah, that's not too. I just didn't understand what you had said. I would, yeah, I felt, I genuinely felt bad for like two weeks. It's okay. I didn't like myself. I still don't like myself, but even more back then. Wait, I have another one real quick. Ooh, yeah.

My mom this year in the same sentence was like, hey, have you seen the new James Bond? He dies. Like in one sentence to me. I was like, come on. No, I haven't. We're going to have to. We're going to have to say ahead of this, like, hey, there's spoilers for this, this, and this.

Yeah. Yeah. Whatever. So this one's from Meredith, and she says, you talk about bears having an amazing sense of smell. So when Wes talks about stumbling upon a bear and it being surprised, wouldn't the bear have smelled the human long before they come face to face? Someone asked us this recently, too, like, how that could happen. I feel like we got a question on Instagram, too. and like they do have an amazing sense of smell,

but they are constantly like digging or looking for food or whatever and they're very involved in what they're doing. So if a bear was like had its nose in a hole or something it was digging looking for something, you could surprise it. If it was sleeping on a trail, you could surprise it. If you're downwind from a bear, then it's not going to be able to smell you until you're very close

because it's just smelling the stuff that's coming in on the wind. So there's definitely circumstances where your scent isn't going to, a carry to that bear or it's like so focused on something else that it's not sniffing around looking for you so even though they have an amazing sense of smell doesn't mean they're constantly smelling everything around them at all points in all times yeah that makes sense all right uh last one is from alexandre and they want to know if we could just choose one character from the game Cube, Smash Bros. Melee, who are we picking?

You guys know mine. Kirby? Kirby. I'm picking Kirby. Yeah. I'll go Pikachu. Game and watch, just because his little hammer is fun. But I mean, if I want to win, it's got to be Fox.

Interesting. Just so you can sit on the other side and just shoot someone continuously. Yeah, that's part of it. All right. Those are good questions. Thanks, everyone. That's a Patreon questions. Should we do our ouchies?

Ouches? I think we ought to. Poor Gavin's little. finger. Seems like it was pretty quick. I'm going to say four out. I mean, it doesn't matter if it's quick if you don't die in your fingers. No, but I'm just saying like if my finger was instantly severed, like yeah, it's going to hurt, but it's not going to hurt as bad as it was like chewed off or like slowly pulled off or something. So I'm going to give it a four. You said how much? A four. Yeah, I think that's good. I'll go with you. Hmm. I think I'm going to go five. Interesting.

he's so young, I don't know, losing a finger seems like it could be a lot more traumatic. Like, he doesn't even know what it means. At one, he's just like, oh, this must just be part of life. This just happens. Yeah. Can you imagine feeling that way? Like, as your brain's developing, like he's probably got a weird bird phobia now. Yeah, he might. Like Brent. That's true. Uh-huh. Four sounds right. I'll go four with you guys. All right. And should we do our claw rating for macaws? I'll give them seven claws. This is like, do we combine this with how much we like them? Yeah, seven claws for macaws.

Didn't mean to write that, but it kind of did. That's my whole. I'll go. I'll go with an eight. I think they're probably in like my top six favorite type of birds. Okay. Cool. What is it like overall, though?

Oh yeah, my overall ranking. Let's go like 132. Okay. That's pretty good. I'm going to go with eight as well. I just think that... I said seven. Well, Jeff said eight.

Sorry. Sorry, my bad. Classic narcissist Wes. I was thinking everyone's referring back to him. I think they're all beautiful. Yeah. And they're... I could maybe bump up to eight.

I don't know if they're even my favorite parrot, though. Did you guys... Have you guys seen the parrots in L.A.? Yeah, like the parrots? So many parrots. No, like parrots. They're parakeets. They're parrots.

Yeah. Well, they have parrots. Right, but they're not, they're parakeets, but they're not like budgy parakeets, like the kind that you would buy at like the pet store. But it's a type of parakeet. It's like a peach-faced parakeet or something. I can't remember what species it is. They're called red-crowned parrots. They have a parrot species too?

Yeah. Oh, because I know they have a whole flock of parakeets too. Hmm. That's cool. Or maybe, I don't know. That's what it said in what I was reading. Should we just go? and find out.

But yeah, it's crazy that they just like kind of got loose and now they're just like thriving. Oh, so they have Red Crown Amazons, which are an actual parrot. And then they also have like- I've seen them at our aunt's house and it's like really cool. Yeah, they have a bunch in the eastern U.S. too and like Florida and stuff. They're like pretty invasive, I think. Cool. Just a little shout out to that.

But they look cool. To the parrots in LA. I learned something new. I thought they only had parakeets. Yeah, you were crazy. directing me. I was. I was. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I don't blame me. I was. I was really doubting myself when you were kept saying parakeets. I know that's like the big flocks that they have in the east and like throughout the U.S. are usually parakeets. But that's interesting to me to learn that

they have Amazon's too. Yeah. Cool. Well, thanks Mike. Well, yeah, that good episode. Well, thanks everyone for listening. Love you guys. Bye. Bye.