Tooth & Claw: True Stories of Animal Attacks - Dingo Attack - A Dingo Ate My Baby with Payne Lindsey: Part 2

Episode Date: September 5, 2022

The guys are once again joined by Payne Lindsey to wrap up the true tale of a dingo attack that dominated Australian headlines all through the 1980s. Wes breaks down all of the twists and turns of the ensuing legal battle, and then wraps things up with a batch of categories and listener questions. ~~ To advertise on the show, contact us! ~~ Tooth & Claw is brought to you by QCODE. Support the show and get access to an extensive library of exclusive episodes like this by supporting the show on Patreon or joining the Grizzly Club on Apple Podcasts. For the latest updates on the show and all things wildlife, follow us at toothandclawpod.com and social:  Instagram: @ToothandClawPodcast Twitter: @ToothandClawPod Wes: @GrizKid Jeff: @jefe_larson Mike: @mikey3ds                          Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of Tooth and Claw. This is the second and final part of A Dingo 8 Might Baby. We hope you enjoy it. Hey, welcome back everyone to Tooth and Claw Podcast. We're doing two episodes in a row, so everyone's getting a special treat out there. They're just getting back-to-back episodes. And we got our special guests back here with us, too. Payne, Lindsay.

Pain is a very well-known podcaster. A lot of you out there have probably listening. into Up and Vanished, among other podcasts. Pain was with us for part one, and we're really happy to have you back for part two, Payne. Thanks, man. The first one was fun, so I'm looking forward to seeing where this thing goes. This one's not going to be fun. Okay, good.

Okay, well, that's fine. We got the fun one out of the way, then. This works. We're naming this one, bringing the pain this time it really hurts. All right. That is so original. Pain's never heard that joke before in his life. He heard it in the last episode, I think.

So there we go. Yeah, I double up. Yeah, double up. If anyone out there hasn't heard our podcast before, we're tooth and claw. We talk about animal attacks, but we like to do it in a way that gives a lot more information about why the animal may have attacked the person, what the person might have been doing wrong to be in that situation in the first place, what we can learn about animals from these attacks, and more importantly, why animals need our help.

because really, even though sometimes we're attacked by animals, we do a lot more harm to them than they do to us. So that's kind of what we're all about here. And if this is your first time listening, like, why didn't you start with part one? Yeah, you should go back. That's kind of a rookie move just off the rip. Yeah. Well, I don't know. If it works for Tarantino to jump around in the timeline, I think we can pull that off.

What's that reference about? What, Pulp Fiction, right? That's like the whole big thing. I actually just watched. I rewatched Pulp Fiction. last night. Oh, no way. And I was showing my friend a scene.

And I was actually literally just talking about the structure of it and how it's kind of like, they kind of all eventually fused together at some point. But it's like different acts and there are different little storylines that that's actually, that's not a coincidence because Mike's actually been watching you through your webcam. At this point, like, yeah, like, coincidence or things are as crazy as I thought they could be. Yeah. I would recommend listening to part one before part two. of this particular series.

Just smart. I didn't put together in a Tarantino-esque way. It's got a typical narrative. I need to tell you guys about an ongoing thing that's happening right now for me. Do you guys get those texts that are like scam texts? Yeah. And it's usually from like a one, it's like plus one. So you know it's coming from like a foreign number because they include it.

What do you say? Like I feel like this can be a lot of different things. But it's usually like something completely off the wall. And then you tell them it's the wrong number and they're like, oh, well, actually, hey, my name's this. Yeah. You know. Oh, yeah. That's the new one where they're like, yeah, yeah.

I'm so sorry. I was trying to text my friend Emily and I found Cassidy and you're like, what the- They like apologize a ton. Like, I'm sorry. I have the wrong number. I hope that's okay. And I'm like, so like, it's not, but like, okay, because I know what's going on here. Yeah, I like keep trying to offer them money.

when I get one. They'll be like, hi, is this Jennifer? And I'll be like, yes, it is. Can I give you some money? And they'll be like,

no, I don't need money. So it's like, what are you guys doing? But anyways, what were you saying? I just got one just now. And the person said,

don't sending me messages. Ryan, I don't love you anymore now. Oh, wow. And I just wrote back and I'm like, I'm so sorry. I'll stop.

sending you messages. And they were like, I'm really sorry. That was for my ex-boyfriend. He keeps sending me message. And I was like, no, it was me. I promised I'll stop sending them. I'm so sorry. And they just can't figure out what to write back to me.

That's my favorite one so far. That is a good one. If anyone can like figure out what they actually want, like I'll give you a free tooth and claw t-shirt because I've been trying every route I can and like I just can't get to the bottom of what the spam even is. I'm glad other people are getting these texts because I thought it was only one. No, I get a few a day. So my problem is, ever since I got a new number, is there's an obstetricians clinic

that keeps sending me messages of, like, very intimate details about complications that occurred with someone's childbirth. And I'm, like, many times I've just been like, please, this is, like, this is straight up a violation of, like, HIPAA and patient confidentiality. laws, all that. So like, whatever. I guess we don't need to get too. I would just be like, just pull the plug. I can't afford it anymore. Mike, that's actually a perfect segue. Did any of those messages ever say, hey, we need more information about your three-month-old child that was eaten by a dingo? Yeah, almost word for word. Not yet for me.

Yep. All right. We do have a story to tell here today, the second half of a story. And I'm going to be honest, guys, this story really took me in a lot of different directions. So I, you know, we talked a lot in the first episode and I am going to do a little recap of what we talked about then. But first, I do want to bring up my sources. So the main source that I was using is this podcast called A Perfect Storm, the True Story of the Chamberlains. It's a good podcast. There's a lot of interviews and a lot of like kind of weird narrative time jumps. So it's kind of a podcast that if you're just on like a really long drive and you want something like almost soothing to listen to that's true crime it's a good one for that something to fall asleep while you're driving yeah exactly

always a good call it's a little bit more ethereal but then case file also did a podcast about azari's disappearance case file is one of my favorite podcast jeff introduced me to it it's a true crime one it's like real just kind of like you get the facts yeah they're great yeah it's good story to tell you like it more or less than up and vanished uh i like it less than up and vanished be honest but pain do you like do you listen to case file to be honest this is the truth i don't listen to podcasts all right that's fair i get it i'm not unaware but as a casual listener i want to like you know support and appreciate it and like okay yeah i get it this is awesome but like i can't be a fan and like keep making new stuff competitively also i don't want it like kind of taint what i'm trying

I don't know. Totally. I heard in an interview later on in his life, Van Halen said he doesn't listen to music anymore. So you're kind of like the Van Halen of podcast. Yeah, you are. There was like a time period of my life. I listened to only like in my car I listened to no music. Like a year and a half, I just was just a silent driver.

And then like I had like a date and they were like totally terrified that I was just. That's like yeah, that's like Jason Bourne. Like, oh yeah, yeah, absolutely. whatever you want. But like, I just got used to it too much. Interesting. I can't be alone with my thoughts like that. No, neither.

I'm jealous, to be honest. Yeah. No, it was still terrifying. It was just, you know, it was a pattern I've developed. He just needs to be aware of his surroundings, you know. Right. Yeah. Great situation.

He's always afraid of being attacked. Looking for murderers. All right. So case file was another source that I used. I also watched a documentary called Lindy Chamberlain, the true story, and then truly like a billion articles that I found about this. I used all those for sources. So just so you guys know, I did a lot of research on this one. Like, I think all of our two-part or three-part episodes are the ones where I really tend to dig in. And this was definitely one of

those. That first podcast, the perfect storm, it's like a 12-part podcast. So it's a bit of a slog, but there is a lot of really good information in there. All right. So a quick recap. At the end of our last episode, they had just had the first coroner's inquest, and that coroner had ruled that the Chamberlains were not responsible for the death of their baby Azaria. Asaria had disappeared from a tent in Aluru in 1980. There was multiple witnesses that had heard Lindy Chamberlain cry out that a dingo took her baby. They found tracks. There was all this evidence pointing toward it being a dingo. So they had a coroner's inquest, and the coroner said, wasn't a murder, this was a dingo. You know, we can put this to rest and story's over, right? But it's not. There's a lot more that happened

after that. And it's important to talk a little bit more about this coroner's inquest. He, at the end of his inquest, after he pretty much said that the Chamberlains were guilt-free, he gave a really strong censure to the Northern Territory Police and to their forensic team, and he called them negligent and subjective. And he pretty much said that they, like, had done a terrible job with all this evidence. And then he also said that a choice had to be made between dingoes and tourism, because in his mind, this was going to keep happening and you couldn't have people like camping with their children at Illuru if, you know, there's dingoes running around. So he was really right about this forensics team. They were a mess from start to finish. There is something that I

listened to that's kind of part of our first episode again. But Myra Fogarty, or Fogarty, was the young police officer that she was the one that was initially assigned to investigate some this forensic evidence. She had never really investigated forensic evidence before, and her superiors prohibited her from looking at the bloodstained tent, and she mostly used newspaper articles to get information about the case. So later she came out and said that. She's like, I use the newspapers to learn about what happened in this case, and she was the forensics expert they called for this first inquest. So like, they really weren't doing their jobs at all. That makes no sense. No, like they're saying that Azaria was killed in the car, but Lindy was saying that Azaria was killed in the tent.

And so the tent should definitely be a place that you look, and they didn't even look at it because they were so convinced that she was a murderer. Okay, this coroner had been really stern and critical of the police. And that, in his mind, that was to ensure that there was closure, but it actually had the opposite effect. And it made them even more determined to check their evidence and continue their case against the Chamberlains. So, like, my question is, why are they going to do this when they could just leave it alone? And one thought is that there was a lot of pressure to preserve the tourism industry in the area because it was such a huge draw, and they didn't want people thinking that dingoes were going to run off with their kids. I think another good option is just that he had kind of told these police they did a bad job,

and police really hate when you make them look dumb. I think that just is kind of universal for police throughout the world. Yeah, but I think especially people that have, like, authority that are supposed to be, like, taking care of us. Sure. If you say, like, hey, you're not doing a good job. I do think police tend to react pretty strongly to that. I mean, it's like the one thing they got.

Maybe I'm on my own on that. I don't know. It's like, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah, it's like, yeah, okay, I get it. It also has part of the problem. But yeah. Totally.

So after this first inquest, the press comes out. They talk to the Chamberlains. And the Chamberlans actually like unfurled this really large poster-sized photo they had of Azaria. And people thought that was kind of weird because they just had this like ready to go. And even. though this first coroner had pretty much said they weren't responsible, people still were looking at them as potential murders. Kenneth Brown was one of the lead forensic pathologists for the

crown. I'm going to say the crown a lot in this. The crown is just like the Australian government essentially. It's like their DA is the crown. And he was their lead forensic pathologist, and he contacted James Cameron, not the famous movie director. That would have been a twist. We need a movie. He's in the bottom of the Mariana Trench and he's like, I'll be there. I'll be right there. He's like, this is a great idea for a movie. Yeah. It is a good idea for a movie.

We need aliens. But I got Avatar to do. We got him in 40 years. That's got to take all 40 of them. Anyways, James Cameron was this guy's mentor and he was a pathologist and a scientist that worked in London. And this guy, Kenneth Brown, who was again, the forensic pathologist for the Crown, contacted him to get some help.

And he had gotten the jumpsuit from the northern. territory police. They were really happy to hand it over because they wanted to keep looking into this case. And Kenneth Brown took it to London and then him and James Cameron looked it over. They had a forensic autontologists look at it and some people that were like fabric experts. And they all concluded that the evidence still pointed toward a murder and that Lindy was the most obvious culprit. So this is kind of all happening in the background. Like this isn't, there's no trial. There's no second inquest yet or anything. But these guys that this corner like pretty much made fun of are like screw you we're going to relook at this evidence and we're going

to prove to you that we were right so they're all kind of looking at it and they're getting more people involved this james cameron guy though he had only once before examined similar evidence but he built himself as an expert and he was actually responsible for evidence in a case in the 70s that led to a wrongful conviction so this guy's kind of a hand job like i don't really like He actually, he used plaster molds of dingo jaws to conclude that a dingo couldn't open its jaw wide enough to fit a baby's head. He also did an ultraviolet investigation of the jumpsuit and he thought he saw a bloody woman's handprint.

Why choose like the hardest part to like get a mouth around? The head. Like you could grab an arm or like a neck or something. Yeah. This guy just justifying science projects just for fun. Right. He's like, see what I did. But also like, doesn't this look cool?

You're like, bro, come on. What are you doing? This is nothing to do with this. No, and I think, Payne, you've probably seen this in some of the other cases you've looked at. With forensic evidence, especially back in the day, it was kind of just like, let's create as much of it as possible. And then some of it is going to tell the story we want it to tell. And that's kind of what these guys were doing. Like, they're not reporting the stuff that doesn't show the conclusions they want it to show.

They're just reporting like, okay, we took a baby's head and tried to cram it in these plaster jaws. And it didn't work. Or like a blood splatter that might or might not have been a handprint or something. Right, right. Exactly. Let's be honest. Buying cannabis shouldn't be complicated, sketchy or low quality. That's why I want to tell you about mood.com.

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Jeez. Yeah, pretty crazy. So this gets out, of course, that maybe she had been decapitated. The press runs wild with that. And the Northern Territory Police hear this back from this, James Cameron guy, and they're like, okay, we got all we need to launch a second inquest. Sounds like a real nearly headless Nick situation. It is.

Where he got 99% but can't quite be in the headless ghost club. Yeah, she can't be in the club, the Lazaria. Yeah, that's exactly what it is. I'm glad you, I'm glad you pulled that, Jeff. So pretty much the cops are back in it, and they decide that they're going to raid the Chamberlain's house. they take their tent, they take their car, and they take about 400 other items for testing. It's been about seven months since Azari has disappeared at this point.

And the Chamberlains are now right back in the media too because everyone finds out about all this stuff and they know that they're being investigated again. Again, to me, it's just like you already have had this corner say, you know, it's a dingo. And then you have all this evidence that doesn't necessarily point toward a dingo, but it's like maybe a little fishy. but they seem so determined to make sure everyone knows, everyone thinks that it's a murder. And I think the main reason for this still

is just that a dingo hadn't killed a person yet in Australia as far as they knew. And it just seemed so unbelievable. So I asked Mike to do a little special assignment for me, and I wanted to look into that a little bit and look into like, because we're not going to talk about animals that much in this episode, but I did want to look into a little bit about dingoes in Australia

and their history of attacking people. So, Mike, what did you find? So you know that Tyler the creator meme where he's like, so it turns out that was a lie? Yeah. That's kind of what's going on here. I did a lot of digging through like old digitized newspaper clippings and a really cool article called A Historical Perspective on Dingo Attacks by Adam Brum.

And honestly, there's so many accounts of Dingo attacks that actually did end up in fatalities that, I mean, it's just fascinating stuff. I really wish that there were like whole books in mini-stacketting. series made out of a lot of these individual cases, but I just wanted to go quickly through the highlights if you guys don't mind. We don't mind. You guys don't mind, right? We actually, I asked you to do this.

That's right. Yeah, job is. That'd be rude if you didn't do it at this point. Yeah, exactly. I didn't know that was an option. I decide not to. No, you have to do it. Okay, so just briefly, I want to mention that all throughout the 1800s, there are multiple

counts of mostly small children wandering off into the bush. and there remains being discovered the next day with pretty irrefutable evidence that it was a dingo that if not caused the initial death, at least chew through these bodies pretty thoroughly. But one that I wanted to bring up specifically, it happened around 1845, and this is a story that was originally just passed down through oral retellings. It's not that abnormal, but what is abnormal was that this was a 12-year-old child who got into a family disagreement, ran away for a night, and was hiding out in the bush and again in the morning, unfortunately, the dingoes.

Neil Clipped him. Yeah. That's what they did. But this is weird because, well, it turns out it's not weird, I guess is the entire point of the story because it turns out that dingoes, they're not really all that intimidated by even just full grown adults. So I wanted to get to another one. And this one's really cool. I want to just hear like the life story of this person. So in 1889, a man, they're called Swaggies, hits a term for traveling bush laborers.

So kind of just like mercenary farmers for hire that just wandered around looking for work. He was traveling by foot from Melbourne to northern Queensland when he was attacked by a pack of dingoes. So like through the wilderness in the 1800s, that's all just detailed. You're definitely dead. I mean, if you're doing that, it's like, yeah. I would die. I would die doing it for five minutes. So yeah, no, I'm with you on that one.

But I wanted to get to his quote. He said, one night I was in the act of preparing a Johnny cake. I just love that. As we do most nights. Johnny cake. Is that like sling for something or is that, is that a cake you can actually buy? I think it's like, I think it's like a pancake. It's like a cornmeal pancake.

Yeah. So after lighting a large fire, six dingoes came and took possession of the camp. They probably wanted in on that Johnny cake, you know. Uh-huh. He goes on to say, I was obliged to retire and leave them to devour all my flour and a piece of salt meat I had in my Tucker bag. They showed their teeth freely and growled rather more than was pleasant. I took a long stick of iron bark, set fire to one end of it, and warded them off by thrusting

it against their noses. Aragan. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Is this his account of this? Yeah, this is his written account of it. It sounds epic. It sounds like a Game of Thrones episode or something.

Yeah, like a flaming stick. Was it really just like totally quick? And he was like, no, you always don't believe what really happened. Yeah, who knows. And he's made it sound really cool in the 1800s way, you know? I mean, he was there on his own. It could have just been he, like, saw a dingo from a distance. But, yeah.

Oh, I trust this guy. The Johnny Kigg detail, that's the kind of detail that they throw in. And you're like, oh, this guy's telling the truth. Too specific. You're right. Yeah. So skipping, leaping ahead, about 30 years. I wanted to get into this one.

So this is from the examiner newspaper. I found by virtue of trove. nla.gov.a.au.au. So it's just kind of like an archival site. So George Cox was returning home on foot after a fishing trip when all of a sudden he found himself surrounded and attacked by a pack of hungry dingoes. He managed to hit one of the dingoes with a stick, but the others pretty easily and quickly surrounded him. So he scampered off to a nearby tree and, you know, for a night was basically being hounded and these dingoes were leaping up, just barely out of reach of his feet that were hanging down just barking and yelping at him all night long so sounds like he was literally

being hounded not basically being hounded but dude climbed up a tree i mean that's pretty impressive too for a night it does seem like a good way to get away from a dingo too like wrong tree you can't get up it and then you're dead i mean so that's true it's a it's a running theme that a lot of these stories involved people using trees to get away from dingoes yeah so i guess just like if you're in Australia, take a tree wherever you are with you and you'll be safe. Sure. Yeah, it makes sense. Anyway, so a search party set out the next day and they finally came across the tree where he was still sitting and just waiting to see what was going to happen. And when the group came upon the tree, the dingoes and the group of men just started an all-out brawl. Really? And George actually

hopped out of the tree and got into it with the dingoes too. And it kind of reminded me of like, you know, when hockey teams get in like a team fight and they all pair off and like they fight. And like, they fight one other person and the other team. It's probably not how this happened, but I kind of like to imagine. Yeah. I like to think so. I like to imagine, like, the leader of both groups

faced off and everyone else circled around. Yeah, that's even cooler. I hope there was, like, just dingoes everywhere, and he, like, was up there, up top, and there was, like, one, like, right below him, and he was like, all right, this is the one I'm getting. And he just tries to jump and just, you know, land on him. Off the top of him.

Atomic elbow off the tree. I've been here for 36 hours. hours. I'm so hungry. I got to pee. This is horrible. One of y'all is going down. Yeah. So one of the dingoes ended up getting killed. The rest of the dingoes ran away. And he he arrived at home in a state of collapse, but ultimately safely. So good for you, George. Glad you made it. Let's see. I want to read this one. I'm skipping a couple good ones because I know I don't just want to take up all your time reading old newspaper clips. But so 1936, this is a good one. Gilbert Hamilton in New South Wales, same newspaper, same website that I found the last one on. So a dingo and upper Boulambul in northern New South Wales attacked Gilbert Hamilton while he was working on a banana plantation.

The dingo sprang at Hamilton, but he watered it off with a sack of bananas and then frighten it away by throwing stones, which is a good trick. So you're like throwing bananas out and then you just like sneak a rock in there. You know, because they're trying to eat the bananas.

That headline sounds so insane. guy banana farm and he went to in a dingo attack I was like what I actually I used to have a friend that snuck in rocks during snowball fights but that we can save that for another episode I thought you mean say sacks of bananas yeah yeah just carries sacks of bananas everywhere with them all right 1942 we're moving now lyell fuller and woolgolga new south wales this is from the barrier minor the account goes that a wounded dingo attacked lyle while he was out hunting for rabbits to use his lobster baits so we got all kinds of animals going on here We got dingoes, rabbits, lobster. Lobsters. And Lyle, the dude. He saw the wounded dingo coming at him and he shot it with his hunting rifle. So feeling pretty confident that this dingo is now dead,

he was just going to use his hunting knife to skin it down and grab its meat to use his lobster bait. Much to his surprise, though, the dingo is only pretending to be dead. It got back up. It quickly lunged at him. And Lyle smashed his rifle over the back of the dingo so hard that the barrel of the rifle broke off from the stock. So at this point, you're probably thinking the dingo's dead, right? No.

Yes. Jeff, you caught context clues there. Yeah. It'd be a real twist if it actually was dead the way I set that up. But it was not dead. It came at him again. So he was like trying to beat the dingo off. Yeah.

Dude. Yeah. Wait, what can I pocket is this? Beating the dingo, huh? Beating the old dingo. Yeah. Well, that's why I bit him. Yeah.

So he was trying to fend off the dingo with the stock, and he was scrambling around trying to get the metal part of the gun barrel that broke off when he eventually finally did and smacked the dingo right between the eyes with the barrel of the gun, killing it. Finally, the encounter's over. But this is my favorite detail. He eventually did go on to use the dingo meat as lobster bait, and he caught 36 lobsters in total that outing. Wow. I don't know if that's good or bad. That seems like a lot of lobster. It seems like it, right?

That's a win, yeah. That's big. I feel like. I don't know. For any lobster catcher enthusiasts out there, just no dingo meat bite, it might be the key. All right, Wes, we're almost done. This is like the last little rundown. So in 1998, this is really just to set up West to take it from here in Cagheri, also known as

Fraser Island. It's off the coast of Queensland in eastern Australia. There is just a slew of dingo encounters that were reported. and it really escalated to the point where it's like the most recent half, basically, of the Wikipedia entries of Dingo attacks. They're all Fraser Island. It all happened on Fraser Island. So one, there was a girl who was sprinting back to camp when a dingo ripped her shorts off.

So it's not funny that she got attacked, but I just kind of like to imagine seeing like Jeff or someone running back into camp without like in his underwear. It's like the copper tone baby with like the dog pulling its. Yeah. It's diaper off. Exactly like that. Bart Simpson. Okay. Later on that same year, a 13-month-old was dragged off from another campsite until the father intervened.

And again, later that same year, a four-year-old boy had to be rushed to the Hervey Bay Hospital after his encounter with the dingo. So this all is really just serving up as kind of a warm-up act for when things finally came to a head in April of 2001. So Wes, take it from here. I will talk about later. Dingo's been, Dingo's been killing shit. Like, that's just. So yeah, where did that narrative come from? Right.

So those last ones that he talked about were all at Fraser Island, and that was like after Azaria's death and disappearance, those were in the late 90s that that really started happening. But I do think it was just lack of reporting back in like the, you know, the 20th century people weren't talking about it nearly as much. It wasn't that interesting. It was just kind of a way of life for a lot of the indigenous people. They just knew that dingoes could be dangerous.

And there's been. Three dingo attacks ever, but there's been five moms that have decapitated their babies with nail clippers. So it's probably that. Yeah. Well, and that sets up that whole false equivalency thing of like this whole idea in their mind that like if this wasn't a dingo, it was Lindy. You know, there was never any other like people they looked at or any other kind of like options they looked at outside of these two options. It was either a dingo or it was Lindy. But I don't get those Lindy's with people the whole.

time that happened. I know. We're going to talk about this. Yeah. But Mike, to your point earlier, like, there hadn't been a death up until the time that Azaria disappeared or like a death that was recorded and that we knew about. Exactly. Right. And then I think where you say like, you know, dingoes are very tolerant of human presence, but then they can become aggressive too. I do think that's because we have this shared evolution where dingoes were at one point a domestic dog, like essentially domestic dog that were brought over and then they became feral. So they do tend to act in a much more comfortable manner around humans than a lot of other wild animals will. And so that can lead to these problems. And that's ultimately what led to the death of Azaria. We all have that dream

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So they're getting evidence ready for a second coroner's inquest. And their working theory is that in a five to ten minute absence from camp, Lindy returned to her tent, did whatever was necessary to stop Aidan, her other son from following her, changed into track suit pants, took Azaria to her car, got the nail scissors,

decapitated Azaria with them, hid the body in a camera case and the head and everything, cleaned up the blood on everything including the outside of this camera case, removed her track suit pants, got some baked beans for her son from the car, returned to the tent, did something to leave blood all over the tent,

and then brought Aiden back to the campfire without ever attracting any attention from other campers except for Sally Lowe's husband, Greg, who saw her walk back with... He saw her walk to the car or to the tent with Azari and Aden and then walk back with her arm around Aiden and without Azzaria. So that's the whole theory that in like five to ten minutes

she did all of that. The most efficient person on earth ever. Yeah. Yeah. Just getting shit done. A lot of blood comes out of things when you kill it. them. And especially if you like decapitate them. I just the other day had to like just cut a little hole into a dead bison and blood got on everything. Like I had blood on my hands. I had blood on my

shoes just from this little like gash that I had to cut in its foot. And it's crazy how much blood comes out of stuff. Is this one of your rituals that you do like on Sundays? This was just me. Yeah. I, I beat the dingo and then I went and cut holes in bison. Anyway, so I just like if you're decapitating a baby with nail scissors Blood is going to be everywhere It's just going to be everywhere and you'll remember like someone sat in the passenger seat of that car with Michael on his way to the hotel that night and they didn't get any blood on him or anything Yeah, I used to think Tarantino movies were unrealistic with the blood Until I like saw someone die and I was like, oh

Did you see a person die? Yeah. Like a bloody death? Is it bad? Is this a dick? Like shot in the neck. Is this for another time? Blood squirting out like six feet in the air.

Shit. That's another podcast. I mean, if you just like do a little like cut on your forehead, it bleeds crazy. Yeah, totally. So the prosecution is going to rely almost completely on forensic evidence to make their case. And the defense is relying almost completely on witnesses. So Jeff, you just said, like, didn't people see all this happened? didn't people hear Azaria cry, all of that stuff. Yes, they did. And these people recorded their

statements. They were witnesses. They were more than willing to speak out because they believed really strongly in Lindy's innocence. So some of these findings of Dr. Cameron leaked to the press. People are thinking now that Lindy ritualistically decapitated her daughter. It turns in this whole media circus again. But then the prosecution, one of the big pieces of evidence that they present is they say that there's fetal blood in the car, which if you look at that from an outside perspective, that's kind of damning evidence. Like if you do find a bunch of fetal blood in the car, okay, then there is actually a chance that Lindy killed Azaria in this car. In the car, they looked, what do you mean? We're going to get into that. I'll get into what that actually

means. But they found what they thought was an arterial blood spray pattern on the underside of the passenger. This is whatever reason or hard sentence to say. They found what looked to be arterial blood spray pattern on the underside of the passenger dashboard and they had it tested. Good job, Wes. You nailed it. Thank you. That was good. So Joy Cool is the forensic biologist that's running tests for the prosecution.

Her last name's cool? Yes, K-U-H-L. I know. In all my notes, I wrote C-O-L. Jay Cool. That's his sweet name. Pain, cool. That sounds too cool where you're like, that's not cool.

Yeah, that's good. I'd be too nervous to hang out with you. Definitely. So pain cool. It's like that guy. No way that guy's cool. So she runs all these tests. She finds positive tests for blood.

And then more importantly, she finds positive tests for fetal hemoglobin. So the Crown series that Azaria had been killed in the car. So for them to find fetal blood in the car is like a slam dunk. But there's a problem with the fetal hemoglobin that they're testing. So pain, to your question earlier, fetal hemoglobin, it's produced in the womb. And it delivers oxygen to the child that otherwise, the child wouldn't get. So, like, without this fetal hemoglobin,

a baby in the womb can't breathe. So it's, like, really oxygen-rich blood, essentially. We stopped producing fetal hemoglobin at about six months old. At a baby at three months old, would still have about 30% fetal hemoglobin in their blood, and that's about how old Azaria was. The tests for this fetal hemoglobin, though, we're showing a concentration of about 50% hemoglobin,

which is way too high of fetal hemoglobin. So it's way too high. Also, the tests they're using give, a false positive in the presence of iron and copper, and they're testing these in a car. Well, ignore that. We got what we wanted right here. Exactly. This is the part we were looking for. Yeah. So they're testing these in a car that has iron everywhere, and then the Chamberlains are from a town that has an open copper mine, and copper oxide dust is everywhere. They wouldn't be able to recognize, though, that they're getting these false positives if they're not running the right controls on these

tests, which they weren't. So they're pretty much just saying, we got a positive. this is fetal hemoglobin, we're running with this. That's that old forensic science shit right there, where they're just totally like, see what I'm saying? And then like, now we're like, well, yeah, we don't, we don't use that to us anymore. It's like, oh, never mind. But like, yeah, that guy got convicted of some shit, but anyways, too late. We've advanced it since then. Yeah. Yeah. He's still in there somewhere. And the science has come so far since then. But back in the, like, back in the day, this was like really groundbreaking stuff. And people really believed in it.

because it was science. It wasn't, this wasn't conjecture, this wasn't testimony, this was science. They were testing things. So people, this is really important evidence for people. So because of all this new information, this new evidence, they call a second coroner's inquest. The original corner, Dennis Barrett, he was so opposed to them doing a second inquest that he completely removed himself from the case. And almost a year after Azaria died, they go back to their second inquest with their legal team, this one's going to go a lot different from the first one. So Jerry Galvin is the new coroner, and he's also like a magistrate or something. I don't totally understand the system, but it pretty much means that aside from saying like, hey, this could be murder, he also could

say that it's going to go to trial. He has that power. Jerry Galvin just got the hammer. Yeah, he's got the power. And at this point, the dingoes are reading the news, like, I can't believe that they think it's the mom. We can get away with anything. I'm like, man, we pulled this shit off. Well. All right. So the Chamberlains have no idea that this new evidence has been found. And when they, like, are called at witnesses in this inquest, they're walking into a trap.

So they pretty much say, like, hey, we found all this blood in your car. And the Chamberlains say, well, we picked up an injured hitchhiker a while ago, and that could be it. But really, like, they're struggling to come up with a good excuse for why there's this blood and specifically why there's fetal hemoglobin in their car. And Joy Kuhl testifies, and she says she spent four days examining the car, she got positive reactions from the entire interior of the car for fetal hemoglobin, and that she said she even found dried flex of blood, and that she had 22 incidents of blood that contained fetal hemoglobin. And like I mentioned, they had found this spray pattern under the passenger side dashboard.

It also had fetal hemoglobin in it. It was exactly in the spot where they said that Lindy had killed Azaria, and the prosecution's like, even if you guys picked up this engine, hitchhiker, it wouldn't explain why there's this arterial spray underneath your dashboard. This is from the gaping throat of Azaria after Lindy cut it. Like they're really graphic about how they explained it. So it's not looking good for the Chamberlains. James Cameron, the guy that was the forensic expert from London, he's one of the star witnesses

for the prosecution. He shows the torn clothing and says there's no way that those specific types of tears could be made from a dog. they had to be made by a bladed instrument. And then, like, the defense calls Sally Lowe, the woman who heard Azaria cry and, like, had seen the dingo prince and the blood and the tent and everything. But the cops had, like, worked on her for hours at this point. And they had just been chipping away at her and chipping away at her. And so she still testified, but she didn't seem nearly as confident in her testimony as she had earlier.

And she just, like, wasn't as strong of a witness as the defense had hoped. And that's because those cops just broke her down. Which works great when you have an actual murderer and you're trying to get them to confess, but it also can really confuse someone who's like a good witness or someone who's innocent. Oh, yeah, you can f***ch it up easily just by doing that. Yeah, I think that's the most succinct way to put it. Thank you. Yeah.

Very eloquent. Yeah, you know, I'm just trying to, yeah. I'm writing a book, you know, trying to. Yeah, yeah. That's why we paid you the big bucks to come on a show. Yeah, thank you. That's right. That checked didn't clear yet, but we'll talk about.

that it'll clear. No, yeah, yeah. So as a result of the second inquest, the coroner decides that he can't ignore this new evidence. He says that Lindy should be tried for murder and Michael is an accessory for murder. So they're released on bail and they're going to have to wait in an upcoming trial. So it's just been two years now that they've lost his aria to a dingo. They've been accused of some of the most terrible things possible. They've sat through two coroner's inquest and now they've been accused of murder.

So it's just been like complete hell for these guys and it's long from over. Stuart Tipple is their main lawyer and not long after the inquest he gets this call from this biologist, Patricia Fleming, who works at a local hospital. And she's like, hey, I heard about these fetal hemoglobin tests and they don't sound right to me. The percent of fetal hemoglobin shouldn't be that high. It just doesn't sound right. And she says you should go confront her and get her work notes from her tests. So he goes and confronts Joy Cool and finds that she didn't use the right controls.

That's why she got all these false positives. And they try and get these tests thrown out from the trial. And they also contact this guy Barry Botcher in London. And he says like that amount of fetal hemoglobin is like higher than you would get from an umbilical cord. He's like, this can't be from a three-month-old child. And he says that she's for sure getting false positives and that like they should throw out this evidence. And this guy Barry Botcher goes to war for the Chamberlains.

Like he becomes like an advocate throughout the rest of their trial just because he's so pissed off that they're using these tests to prove that she was a murderer. So this guy, Stuart Tipple, their lawyer, he tries to put together to the fence. Meanwhile, Lindy gets pregnant with her fourth child. A lot of the media thinks she's just getting pregnant to like garner sympathy. And ultimately the pregnancy actually kind of works against her.

And all the media at this point like hates the Chamberlaints. All this blood evidence has come out. Everyone's convinced that she's a murderer and that she like decapitated her kid in this ritualistic kind of crazy murder. And now she's pregnant with another one, you know? Right. And that's what they're saying.

They're like, oh, she's going to kill this one too. They're legitimately saying that. What's killing me right now is it's just the names, Patricia Fleming and Barry Botcher. Like this sounds like some shit that you'd make up to a cop. Like, what's his name? You're like, ah, Barry Botcher. botcher. If you ever were to say Barry botcher to someone, they would definitely say back to you,

Barry botcher? Okay. Not to mention we got James Cameron. Yeah. So in in 1982, the trial begins in Darwin, Australia. Judge James Muirhead's presiding, Stuart Tipal, their lawyer is confident that with all this exculpatory evidence he'd found, there'd at least be reasonable doubt and then the case would be dismissed. So in Australia, it's the same thing. If there's reasonable doubt, a jury, a jury, isn't legally supposed to convict someone. So the Crown presents their case. They say that the blood in the car completely dismisses the dingo story. This lead prosecutor there is he's a local, he's a really good job pandering to the jury.

He's really theatrical. He's really charming. And on the other hand, the defense does a really bad job playing to the jury. They use their expert from London, Barry Botcher, to try and disprove these stains. Bibi, but he talks. Yeah, our guy, Barry. He talks in like a really scientific. way and it just completely goes over the head of the jury and then he gets really sweaty and like stammery

too he's just a really bad witness for the defense he does a really bad job very lost is cool he did yeah and then joy cool who collected the evidence for the crown she's much less scientific but she's also much more charming like she has to be i said that a little too quick but yeah she has to be more smooth. Yeah. We're calling her J-Cool from now on. She's much more effective in presenting her evidence in like a palatable way to the jury and she's really calm and collected. But again, all she has to do is say like, hey, this was baby blood, but Barry Botcher had to prove like why her tests weren't run the right way. So like hers is much easier to explain than his. But she really gets her point across and he doesn't. So she won't admit that she messed up. No, she doesn't think she did at this point. She still is like,

this was baby blood. Right. Yeah. So Lindy's a pretty good witness, but she has a really hard time following all this forensic evidence when really it's just like her word versus other people's word for her testimony. And then on top of that, the media has just painted her in such like a weird light at this point that people already don't like her, including the jury. And then Michael's a terrible witness.

They just completely rip him apart when he takes the stand. You tell yourself, no one wants your college-era band teas. But on Deep Hop, people are searching for exactly. exactly what you've got. You once paid a small fortune for them at merch stands. Now, a teenager who calls them vintage will offer that same small fortune back. Sell them easily on Deepop. Just snap a few photos and we'll take care of the rest.

Who knew your questionable music taste will be a money-making machine? Your style can make you cash. Start selling on Deepop where taste recognizes taste. So the Chamberlains are also falling apart in their personal lives. They look disheveled and emotional. day they have to walk by like hundreds of people that are screaming in their faces and calling them baby murderers. And this pressure is really building up on them. And even though originally it looked like all this evidence was pointing toward a dingo, now in the media really looks like it's

pointing toward them being murderers. So as the trial progressed, J. Kuhl, the forensic specialist, she suddenly produces new notes that showed that she had used the proper controls for the analysis and testified that she didn't alter the original notes. Tipple, this lawyer for the Chamberlains, He was with her as she scanned all these notes, and he's completely sure that these are new notes that she just added. And five years later, independent researchers would find out that she did actually alter her notes and that she had mistaken fetal hemoglobin for copper oxide.

But at the time, she's like, hey, guess what? I actually did run the controls. Here they are. And produce these new notes. So pretty not cool of J. Cool. Yeah. Yeah. J. Uncool.

The prosecution also argued that the clothes were, like suspiciously free of dingo saliva and hairs, although there were a few hairs. And the defense said this was the fact that Azaria had been wearing that matinee jacket. So you guys remember in the first episode, one thing I told you to remember is that Azaria had been wearing a matinee jacket that was never found. I forgot, Wes, I'm sorry. I still forget what the hell of matinee jacket is. I mean, I think I've learned it and I forgot it immediately.

It's like a knitted sweater that has like a top button. That has dingo hair on it? Yeah, it's knitted from dingo hair. No, it's just like a knitted sweater. Is there a way to confuse that or something? The reason it's so important is because they never found that. And like, that was her top layer. So if that's what she was wearing, that's what would have gotten the brunt of this dingo attack.

It's what would have the most blood, the most saliva, the most tears. But no one ever found it. And the police actually are starting to deny that it ever even existed. They're saying like, hey, you keep bringing up this matinee jacket. We never found it. We're just going to deny it. exist entirely. So throughout the trial, the testimonies of these indigenous trackers that initially tracked the dingoes, they're never heard. I don't get why. And all the stuff I listened to,

these people made it seem like the Chamberlains had good lawyers. But to me, it's like, you got to put those people front and center, especially these indigenous trackers that, like, have their entire life of experience of tracking dingoes. Because those people said, like, not only did they track the dingo, but they said, here's where it laid the baby down. Like, here's where it dragged the baby. Wow. They were 100% confident that a dingo had taken this baby. And they didn't, for whatever reason, these people weren't heard in the trial.

So that's a bigness. They wanted to make it a fair fight. Yeah, I guess. Even the playing. I do think, like, as we mentioned in the 80s, forensic evidence was so new and important that even had they presented all that, I think this forensic evidence would have been so convincing to the jury that it would have been hard to convince them otherwise. So there was, the defense did hire a dingo expert. They called, his name was Les Smith. He took pictures of dingo's holding dolls that were like a zaria's size in their mouths.

So they were like holding the heads of these dolls in their mouths. These guys have ways to any weird experiments. I mean, they're just like this, they're having. The blast with this. But it matters. Like how much money they're spending on this investigation and they still f*** it up? But truly like this was important data because like a big argument of the prosecution was like a dingo can't fit a baby's head in its mouth.

And then this guy was like, here are photos of baby's heads in dingo's mouth. Crucial piece of information there. Yeah. So that's money well spent. But this guy, James Cameron, was like, nope, I looked at a plaster cast and I couldn't jam a baby's head in that plaster mold. So like, this doesn't add up. And this guy's not a dingo expert.

He's just like a scientist. Yeah. So. Which we all know dingo experts are way smarter than science. We should listen to Dingley. I mean, in this case, yeah, totally. Yeah, the only case is that it ever, yeah. Yeah, it's their time to shine.

So the trial goes on for 33 days, and then the jury of nine men and three women takes only six hours to come to a verdict. The judge asked the foreman to stand and asked if he reached a decision and he said yes. And then he goes on to say that they had found Lindy Chamberlain guilty of the murder of Azaria, and Michael was found guilty of being accessory to murder. The jury had bought the forensic evidence and the crown, that the crown presented, and despite a lack of a weapon, a body, a motive, or even a sufficient time frame to commit the crime, they found the Chamberlain's guilty. That's unreal.

The judge, apparently in this kind of case, like, there's only one sentence the judge can pass in Australia. So he literally turns to Lindy and says, you're getting life in prison with hard labor. And, like, that's her sentence. Like, she gets it right then. Michael's sentence ended up being 18 months in prison, but it was they got rid of his sentence because the judge wanted the kids to have someone at home to raise the children. So Michael ended up not serving any time at all.

So to me, that's like the judge still like doesn't completely believe it. Yeah, probably. Because if it's like if you think he was an accessory to killing a child, I don't think that's your priority. From what I kind of learn though in Australia, killing a child isn't as big of a deal as it is in the U.S. Like you can kill a kid, you can kill a kid in Australia. and if it's not like that crazy of a case,

you might get out in like 10 years or something. Like you. Yeah. Pocket that information. You get kid killers out there. Just in case you need to know that. Anyway, so while in jail, Lindy goes straight to jail.

While in jail, she gives birth to her daughter, Kalia, and Michael takes custody of the other children and then Kalia. And this was a really sad point because she talks in- Calia doesn't have to stay in jail? No, she doesn't, which actually sometimes happens. but not in this case, not with like a baby murder. Lindy did this really sad interview where she talked about how she tried to hold Collier in because she was so sad to have to give birth to her because she knew she was going to have to give her up.

So like they let her hold her for an hour and then she wasn't legally allowed to see Collier for a year after that. So it's just like really heartbreaking. Man, it was f***ed up. It would be even more f***ed up if for some reason the baby had to now be. in prison. Yeah. I agree. I mean, it shouldn't be happening anywhere.

Does that count as like a prison break for the baby? I don't think so. Maybe. Escaped prison that's first dating alive. It did. It has like street cred. So, Lindy's lawyer and this professor, Barry Botcher, they don't want to give up on the case. They decide to appeal the verdict.

It's just like in the U.S., you can submit an appeal. And a big part of their appeal was the fact that they believe the fetal hemoglobin hadn't been tested properly. Though to submit an appeal, you need some kind of new evidence. So they talked to Derek Roth, who was the park ranger to Luru. Apparently the prosecution had interviewed him, but they didn't allow him to, like, say what he actually wanted to say. And he had a bunch of evidence that pointed toward it being a dingo. So they collected this evidence from Derek Roth, and then they submitted an appeal,

and they said, you know, this forensic evidence was bad, and we have this new evidence. But it wasn't enough, and these appeals were dismissed. Her legal team doesn't give up, though. They go and they start examining cars that were the same model as the car that the Chamberlains drove. This is where it starts getting really interesting to me. So they start looking at the exact same spot under the dashboard on this model of car, and they're looking for this blood spray pattern that they had seen on the Chamberlain's car. And they find it.

They start finding it in this model of car. They find this exact same pattern of spray. And then they look at it with a microscope, and they see that there's paint on top of it. So they learn, like, this spray has. happened before the car was painted. And so they do a little bit more research. And what they find out is that it's a sound deadening compound. And that when they spray it in the wheel wells of this car,

there's a little gap that sometimes it sneaks through and it hits underneath this spot in the dashboard. And it looks like arterial blood spray. What the heck? But it's a sound deadening compound. Oh my gosh. And that's what this whole thing was. Yeah.

That's amazing. Figure out of his blood first or not. I mean. So it's like it's not even blood. That's crazy. And when they look at the Chamberlain's car and they look at it, they can see the paint from like when their car was painted on top of this blood spray. So like... They're reaching.

It's, yeah, it's ridiculous. Like, it's ridiculous evidence. They take this evidence now to the High Court of Australia. And unfortunately, because this evidence was available at the time of trial, it can't be submitted as new evidence. And it's not basis for an appeal. And so this, again, like, they're denied an appeal. Jake was like updating her notes again. Like it wasn't actually blood.

I put pain on top of this. There's this crazy quote from the, I just made a note of this, like from one of the podcasts I listened to where they're talking to the lawyer. The lawyer was like, in some ways he thinks Michael got the worst sentence because he had to be out in the world dealing with all the scrutiny. And it's like, no, Lindy got the worst sentence.

She's doing hard labor for life in prison. Like she definitely- Giving birth. Yeah. So they, the legal team keeps trying to disprove the crown's evidence. They run these tests that show that dogs teeth can actually cut just like a bladed instrument. They disprove the fetal hemoglobin. They show that there's actually hairs on the jumpsuit from dingoes.

The crown had said they were from cats and the defense like took it to a dingo expert. And he's like, nope, those are dingoes, like immediately. But my question is kind of like, where was this energy during the trial, you know? For sure during the trial, they were presented with like the prosecution's case. beforehand and they should have done a better job disproving all this stuff. I don't totally get why they didn't refute all this and take all this time during the trial. The trial lasted. Why were they so hell bit on it being her?

I mean, it makes me want to wonder, maybe there's more to it. But was there a reason that they were so suspicious of her? Just, I mean, off of the way that she was acting? I think it was just the fact that she was like from a weird religion that she like seemed weird in the press during interviews. she seemed cold and then like if it is a dead kid had that vibe to it and it's like okay yeah something bigger's going on and the media just bit on it and they're like yeah we're going to prove that exactly but as far as like her defense team i think they just thought that their evidence of like why it was a dingo

was so clear that they didn't think the forensic evidence would sway the jury at this level but apparently you know it did and they really blew it so anyways a lot of this new evidence starts leaking out into the media and people are starting to wonder if Lindy's really guilty. They're like, whoa, okay, maybe we did the wrong thing here. Maybe Lindy Chamberlain actually was innocent. And the police double down and they're like, we're confident in our evidence, but there's a really big groundswell of public support for the Chamberlains. And this starts to give them this thought that there might be a chance that this thing called a Royal Commission is called. And a Royal Commission is pretty much the government and they get this chance to right or wrong that

otherwise it's going to be too tricky with the complicated legal system. So it's kind of like a molligan. Like they get to say like, hey, we did this thing wrong and we're going to, you know, do this Royal Commission. Yeah. Yeah. So while she's in jail, the attorney general in the Northern Territory actually tells Lindy, if you say that you're guilty and you claim postnatal depression and that's why you killed

her, I'll let you out of jail. Like today. Oh, wow. And Lindy refuses to do it. She says, no, I'm not going to say I killed my baby. I'm just not going to do that. And so she stays in jail. Good for her.

Yeah. At this point, though, they really need a miracle to get out of jail. Reversing a decision in Australia is really difficult. They need this Royal Commission, but it's been denied all the way up to the top, like the highest courts. And then their hopes are finally completely dashed when the Attorney General reviews all the new evidence and decides that a Royal Commission isn't necessary.

So at this point, it's been almost five years since Azari has been killed. It looks like Lindy's going to spend the rest of her life doing hard labor in prison. She's been there about three years at this point. Just making iPhones. Exactly, yeah. So here comes the craziest part. Around the same time that this Royal Commission is, like, completely dismissed,

a 31-year-old British hiker and Sydney resident, David Brett, is taking a trip to Aluru. This guy has a really intense interest in witchcraft, the occult, and sorcery, and he's actually obsessed with the Chamberlain case. When they look at his apartment later, he's got like clippings from the case and he's like really in. David, he's a good job. Yeah. So he's obsessed with the trial.

He goes to Aluru in January 1986. It's kind of in the evening and there's this part that's closed to visitors because it's like a sacred area. And he goes into this area and that evening, these two indigenous people see him like climbing the rock in that area and they report that he was climbing. and he's not supposed to be there, and then he disappears. And no one knows where he went, and then a week later, another hiker finds his body at the base of the rock. He had fallen like over 200 meters to his death, and he had died in this fall.

The crazy thing is where he had fallen is right around where they had found Lindy's clothes during the first inquest, and so they launched this search because they're looking for this guy's like bones and stuff, because he had been fed on by animals. So he'd been kind of scattered all over. And they launch a search. And they do what's called a line search where you pretty much just have a line of people walking in like a grid. And you're just picking up anything that looks like it could be this guy's, you know, remnants.

And I know what's coming. A crazy thing is of this entire line search, only one of these people had been present for the search for Azaria. And that same person, as he's doing this line search, he sees a little bit of cloth sticking up above the sand. No way. He reaches down. he pulls it up and lo and behold he's holding azarias matinee jacket and he's like the only person there that probably would have even known what he was holding why it was important and he realizes exactly like what he has in the moment that's amazing they like lindy's lawyer finds out about this he

immediately flies out to luru and says like hey we need to get a hold of this jacket we need lindy to look at it lindy goes and looks at it she positively confirms that it was azarias jacket And then they have this deal that the prosecution and the defense are going to be able to examine the jacket at the same time. They do, and they all agree that this is Azaria's jacket. Like it's covered in rips and tears, it's covered in blood, it's her lost jacket. This was a huge miracle for the Chamberlains because it completely supports their idea that a dingo attacked Azaria. They had been saying for a long time that she'd been wearing this jacket when she was attacked, and now they find the jacket. at the same time the German company that made the blood tests that Jay Kool was using,

they write and say, hey, these tests aren't, they're not good for fetal hemoglobin. You can't use them for fetal hemoglobin. Uncool, man. Yeah. And like pretty much say, like, that's not okay. Like, you guys misused our tests. So with this jacket being found, with this German company saying this thing about the blood tests, the attorney general decides to immediately release Lindy from jail and to call a royal

commission. And they even say, depending, like, regardless of what happens in this Royal Commission, Lindy, you're not going back to jail. Like, you are not going back no matter what. Wow. As the Krispy Chicken sandwich from 7-Eleven, people always call me loud. And I'm like, yeah, I know. I'm crispy.

Did you expect me to whisper? If you want quiet, go eat some soup and reflect. Like, I know I'm a handful. I'm bold, I'm juicy. Throw some pickles and barbecue sauce on me, and baby, I'm a whole meal. And with seven rewards, I'm just $4. Quiet, no, crispy, saucy, and $4? Very, only at 711.

Valley 3,6, 2326, participating stores only well supplies last the app for full terms. So all the evidence gets to be reanalyzed now because there's new evidence. The Royal Commission goes through all of it. They talk to all the witnesses, including the Indigenous trackers. And after 10 months of doing this commission, the Justice in charge decides to quit the Chamberlains. He does it in a really lukewarm way that probably still left a lot of people with a lot of doubt. He pretty much says, like, we don't have sufficient evidence to say that they murdered their child. But he quits them.

And they both break down in tears when they're acquitted and they get to go free. But I should note, like, they were pardoned but not exonerated. Payne, do you know, like, the difference between being pardoned and exonerated? Okay, exonerated. Pardon is they're like, you're good, right? You're not in trouble anymore, but like, you might have still done that shit. We don't know. But exonerated is like, we are.

putting on the record that you are innocent and we're kind of sorry. Exactly. And the Chamberlains didn't get that at first. They were just pardoned. So that kind of was like, that wasn't great for them because they were still in media scrutiny. People still believe that she was a murderer. And they ended up getting divorced right after this happened.

And then the government did end up paying them some compensation. It was like $1.3 million, I think. And then they called a third inquest in 1995, but it came up with like a, non-result. So now we're going to fast forward to what Mike hinted at earlier, April 2001. Nine-year-old Clinton Gage is camping with his family on Fraser Island on the Queensland coast of Australia. Unknown to him and his family, they're camping in an area where a 46-year-old man had recently disappeared without a trace. On the morning of the 30th of April 2001, Clinton wakes up early with his brother Dylan, who was seven, and then their other seven-year-old

friend, and the three kids go for a walk down the beach. They'd go for a walk down the beach. They'd gone about a quarter mile from their camp when suddenly they realized they're being followed closely by a pair of dingoes. They tried calmly walking back to the camp, but when the dingoes came in even closer, they panicked and ran. Clinton tripped and fell, and the dingoes jumped on him, biting his throat and his face. The seven-year-old friend ran to get Clinton and Dylan's dad, and then the dad ran to Clinton's body, but found him dead.

He then heard a scream from behind him and saw one of the dingoes attacking Dylan, and he rushed to help Dylan when the other dingo then jumped back on and started to hear to scream. started feeding on Clinton again. So these are really bold dingoes. Dylan survives. He's treated for injuries. Both dingoes were shot. And it was the first official dingo fatality on record, April 30th, 2001.

Wow. Okay. You know, at least old Clinton didn't have to live to see 9-11, right? That is true. You was in Australia, though, right? That was shocking to the whole world, I'm sure. Right, yeah. Well, yeah, they probably did something.

Wait. You would... This is a new podcast. New podcast by Bingley's like, oh, maybe they are guilty or something. Wouldn't be the first time you broke news, so maybe, yeah, I don't know. Maybe Payne knows something. You never know. This is really critical, though, that this boy was killed in 2001 because it again showed, like,

okay, not only can dingos kill a three-month-old baby, they can kill a nine-year-old kid. And people started realizing that dingoes are dangerous animals. And then there's this whole spate of attacks at Fraser Island, especially in like 2010, 2011. So in 2011, Lindy actually did this kind of public appeal to have another coroner's inquest so that they could finally be totally exonerated. And in 2012, a fourth inquest was done by a coroner. This one was a woman. Her name was Elizabeth Morris. She examined all the evidence, plus the 130-plus dingo attacks that had now been recorded. and she emphatically declared that Azaria had been killed by dingoes and her new death certificate reflected that fact.

Wow. That's it. Fine. That's the entire story of their whole saga with this dingo attack. It was crazy one for me because it was just like this whole roller coaster of emotions for this family that really lost their child in such an awful, like God awful way and then had to like go on the defense for so long to where they weren't even really able to mourn the fact that their daughter was torn apart by a wild dog, you know?

Yeah. Like, they instantly had to prove that they weren't the murderers. And it's just like an absolute nightmare. I can't imagine what this must have been like for them. To me, the weirdest part about this whole story, having heard the whole thing now, obviously it's bizarre that the police were just so hell-bent on trying to convict her of this murder when there wasn't much really to prove that. So, one, I wonder why they did that.

But two, flash forward all these years later, if I heard it right, there was a guy who was obsessed with this case who... Like six years later. Went out to the location and died. Yeah. And that's how they solved it. I know. It's crazy. Now, that's crazy as hell.

But it's not necessarily crazier than the baby being killed by a dingo. Right. But it's still... They're both absolutely insane. They are. Completely. Yeah. Anomalies, right?

This whole thing's unbelievable. Right. Like the baby being eaten by a dingo isn't like completely crazy to me. No. It's like she left a baby alone in the tent. Having heard about these dingoes. No, that's their, that's their MO, I guess. But yeah, it is kind of, that was a crazy thing to me that for so long that was the

hardest thing for people to wrap their heads around when it's like, honestly, if you leave a baby alone with some dogs long enough, the dog's probably going to eat them. So it's just like, to me, it should have been a slam dump. but it went through this whole thing and it's a crazy case. Did the cops ever like apologize or anything? Not really. So like in in that perfect storm podcast, the host of it, yeah, the host, he interviewed the main detective on the case and that detective was kind of just like pretty unrepentant and still kind of maybe seemed like he thought Lindy had murdered Azaria. So yeah, it's crazy.

I mean, they really just dug in their own heels on this thing. Yeah. But, all right. Well, for the sake of time, I think we're going to get into our categories. But again, if you are really interested in learning more about this case, listen to a perfect storm or the case files episode on the death of Azaria Chamberlain, there's a lot of documentaries information out there. And it's a fascinating case with a lot of details that I left out. It's so bizarre, man. Just the, from beginning to end, it's, it doesn't seem real. I can't imagine the relief that you would feel in the moment when finally after years, you're left. free totally exonerated yeah that's what I mean it's like the like classic like being in the

wrong place wrong time kind of thing or so just like weird shit does happen but it doesn't happen a lot this just seems like that was one of the cases where something weird happened dingo took the baby and then they discovered it this way too they ended in some strange almost weirder way to me yeah there's like witnesses everywhere too I know it's like if like our night of the grizzly episode if they were cops just came in and were like Nope. These friends killed this person with like bear marks all over. They used a hatchet to like to kill and consume this young girl.

Yeah. Well, happy for Lindy. I just truly happy that justice seems to have been served. That's great. Yeah. And like I said, she got compensated a bit, but I hope she made a ton of money off of like all the other stuff that's come out of this because she deserves it to be honest.

Yeah, for sure. Hopefully these documentaries are paying her and she's getting what she deserves for telling her story because she had a real tragic thing happened to her. All right. So we're going to get into our categories. I'm curious what your guys's favorite courtroom movie is. So a movie that involves a lot of courtroom scenes. Mike, do you want to go first? Yeah, sure.

So this is a classic, a little cliche, but Gregory Peck and To Kill a Mockingbird is, I mean, undeniable. excellent performance for an unbelievable story. So, yeah, had to do it. So mine, I'll go after you because mine kind of references that in a bit. I decided to pick the movie Just Mercy. I'm like you where I don't really like Michael B. Jordan as an actor. I really like that story, though, because I think it's one of the few courtroom movies that's about, like, racial injustice that doesn't have, like, a really strong white savior

element to it. Sure. And so I found it, like, really refreshing and beautiful. and I really liked that movie. The problem with that movie is Jamie Fox. It's just like such a better actor. He is. He's so good in that movie.

I never saw it. Was it decent? Was it good? It's good. Okay. Yeah. I don't. I didn't love it.

I liked it quite a bit. But, yeah. Pain, you want to go? Okay, so I'm big time blanking. I'm like, I think that I'm coming to the realization that I don't, I guess I'd not really into courtroom movies, I think. I think that it gets, like, you know what I mean? Like, I'd have to say big daddy.

You know? You know, at the end, oh, wow, yeah. It's a good solution. It makes sense for both parties. It's emotional. It does. And you go to the roller coaster,

and that was illegal system, you know, keeping that kid away, you know? The part where the homeless Steve Bouchemies in the courtroom always cracks me up. That's a good pick. I'll go with a few good men.

Just like the screaming at each other, Tom Cruise pretending to be drunk. Yeah, a lot of classic quotes. Yeah, it's a great movie. Jack. Which one's that one again? That's like the, you can't handle the truth. Yes, okay.

Yes, yes, yes. All right. So I think our next category is going to be listener questions. Jeff, did you gather some listener questions for us? Yeah. This is from Patreon. And this one's from Leo. And they want to know, what are your favorite Star Wars characters and why?

And then they say, there's this Darth Mall, Mike. Yeah, defend yourself. I dare you. I dare you to defend Darth Mall as a guy. good character. Mike, don't challenge our patrons. That's a good point. I really like Darth Mall, especially when you like watch the other, the Clone Wars and all that stuff. He did look scarier than the other ones, you know. Yeah. He's a good pick. Weird. You kind of like, that guy. Demonic. Yeah. And there you go. You

summed up the entire character right there. That's right. That's it though. Yeah. They all took though. I love Dartmouth. I'm going to pick Asilkatano from like Clone Wars. Just like a great character, a great series, probably the character I cared most about in any Star Wars viewing I've ever done. So that's my pick. I'm going to go R2D2. Just never know what tricks it's going to pull out. I love when he just has like a lighter that like pops out of him. It's just like someone built a lighter in him.

Somehow he's like replacing parts to do new things because it's coming out of the same spot. He's like, okay. You just can do anything. I don't know. Yeah. And then just like it's just like a little. person in the costume the whole time. Oh, yeah.

That's crazy. That was the thing. It's awesome. Yeah. So cool. Payne, are you a Star Wars person? I'm not like a big Star Wars guy, but I would go with, I'll go with Obi-1 just because I'm a big fan of you and McGregor.

And so I just, you know, I think he's cool. And so I like that he's a part of the Star Wars, you know, family. So I think that's cool. Yeah, he's sweet. Mike. You know, recently I've been growing in appreciation for Princess Leia. I think she's an awesome character. I also, so I guess the turning point.

I've always liked her, but I like when she's being held captive in the Death Star and tortured, basically. Luke breaks in to save her and like the first thing she does is give him sass. It's not like, oh, thank you for saving me. She's like a little short for a stormtrooper or whatever, you know. I just think that's like a tough girl, you know, air quotes, tough girl character done a lot better than I've seen it done most anywhere else. I think she's great. Don't watch the new show, Obi-Wan or whatever. She's like a little girl in there, and she's awful.

Oh, no. Yeah, I liked the show, but that character was a little grating. Oh, weird. What's next, Jeff? All right. From Katrina, what is your favorite wildlife myth? And I'll go ahead and lead us off with this one. My favorite wildlife myth is that when you get bit by a venomous snake,

you can suck the venom out if you're fast enough. because it's like instantly injected into your bloodstream. It's too late. So I just love the idea of people just like getting hickies on top of their snake bites that do absolutely nothing to help it. Wouldn't you be presumably sucking it into your system again though? It wouldn't matter. You can drink venom. Okay, so it's gotta hit the bloodstream for it to do what it does? Yeah. Okay.

Technically it could work if you sucked all of the blood out of your system, right? right? I'm going to pick the common myth that if you ever touch a baby animal, like a baby bird or any other baby animal, that its parents will just like desert it, that they'll immediately like abandon it. Yeah, everyone thinks that one still. And it's not true. Like animals put so much time and so much energy into reproduction.

It's like kind of the number one thing that we're supposed to do is animals. Like it's the number one kind of like biological imperative is to reproduce. so they don't abandon their young readily. Like occasionally an animal will abandon its young if it feels like its life is in danger, but outside of that animals don't abandon their young. So like touching baby birds don't do it, but it's not going to cause the mom to abandon its young. It stresses them out and that's a bad thing,

but it's not going to cause mom to abandon them. I really like the myth that sailors used to think manatees were like sexy, seductive mermaids. Yeah. I don't know if you guys have ever seen a manatee. Yeah. Like they're cute, but they're not like hot. They are pretty cute. Yeah. They're not sexy.

Dude, you haven't been at sea for over a year then. Yeah. Yeah. I have not been to sea really sexy. There might be some really hot ones in there. So I got one here. I just thought of it actually. Mine's going to have to be Bigfoot.

And, you know, the problem I have with Bigfoot is that, you know, it's the whole, why I said they're a good picture of them kind of thing, right? And the answer for someone who's a real big, big foot person is always, well, that's what they're good at. They're good at hiding. I'm like, there's no way that they're better at anything than we are. Like, really? Wow. Because you're not as a ball.

Shots fired all the Bigfoot out there. Bring it on. Like, let's go. Have you heard the one that Bigfoot is Kane, Adam and Eve's son? That. might be true. I'm going. I mean, I would argue, though, like, there's animals...

There's animals that do stuff much better than humans do. You know, like, crows fly a lot better than we do. Yeah, but you got TV crews hunting for this guy. Where is he? Yeah. Why do we hear him and never see him? We are going to do a Bigfoot episode at some point. It's a good answer.

It's a bad answer, Payne. They're not mythical. They're real. Maybe they're real. So, not a myth. They are really, they are so good. Hard to find. Yeah.

Jeff, you got another question for us? Yeah, let's do Mick Halletode from Instagram. They want to know where would Sheelob place in the tooth and claw cage matches? Sheelab would take number one. I don't know. Freaking Sam kills her. Yeah, but he kills her with like the light of Ayrndale. Like he's...

So you just need a little light and you win? You need like a elvish sword and like the light from like the Silmarils to kill Shilob's. I'm pretty sure I give. I don't think Sam would kill an orca. Me either. There's no chance. Fair not. Yeah.

Okay. I think there's an argument for Shilab falling victim to one of our other animals then. But I would probably, if we, if we've set up a cage match with all of our animals so far and Shilab, I think I would put my money on Shilab. Were you going to do dingo cage match? Yeah, we can do, let's do, we'll do that afterward after the questions. All right, cool. All right. Henry Dolinger wants to know what animal they should send into space next.

My answer is a horse, because whenever I see a horse in a movie, it has like no idea what's going on. So like, I just think it'd be even funnier if it's in space just like trying to figure out what's happening. A horse would look really funny with like a helmet on too. or not suit. But I'm going to go to like a black bear. Can you imagine riding a horse on the moon? That would be cool. That'd be awesome.

Yeah, I'll go with that. What would that suit look like? That'd be crazy. It would be interesting. It'd be just like one of those horse costumes. You can get it. What's the deserters or whatever it's called? Two-parters.

I'm not familiar. I'm sorry. What's that exactly? The two-part horse costume. You want to go with me for Halloween this year? Yeah, I'll go to the horse costume and start with you. I'm going to pick Elelier. I just think elephants can't jump, but maybe on the moon they can.

And I feel like they deserve to feel that sensation, you know? That's great. I like that, Mike. That's a good answer. Payne, you got any animals you want to send into space? I'm going to go with a goldfish. I think that's happened. Damn it.

Okay. It's a realistic choice. Okay, then a lobster. I want them to be like, oh, man, I'm far from home, bro. This is not good. Opsies be underwater. I'm in like fake water Yeah

That'd be really disorienting This is They won't believe this shit when I get back Okay Alright one more From got blankets They want to know if animals go to heaven No

You know I guess not No That one dingo doesn't He's gone to hell Yeah these dingoes aren't If you believe that they should Then they do

Yeah I believe that Personal interpretation I think they go to heaven unless something catches their soul before it leaves earth. Like if something's eaten them and absorbs their soul, then I think their soul becomes that new animal's soul and they don't exist anymore. What? Well, that dingo that played dead, you know, that guy, he did not go to heaven.

Yeah, that was. Good theory. If your soul gets absorbed, you're not going to heaven. I'm just going to say, heaven wouldn't be heaven without my dog. so I'm going to guess that dogs go to heaven and some other animals do too. Sorry to be the party pooper on that one. So let's do our cage match.

It's okay, we're good. All right. Our cage match category, for those of you who aren't familiar, it's essentially a big cage match where we pair our animals up against each other to see who would take home the crown or the belt or whatever you want to say. I think for dingoes, I think we're going to look at some

animals that would be similarly sized, not necessarily all of our animals. But I think some that come to mind would be our chimpanzee, our coyote, our wolf, our mile monitor. Yeah. I think those are all some. Beaver would be a good pick. I think all of those are some pretty interesting ones. I think our closest matchup is between it and a coyote.

And I'm talking like kind of the bigger, like more like Western coyotes, not like, Not like the ones you see in, like, L.A., but like the ones that live in Wyoming and stuff. I think a wolf could be interesting, but I think the wolf would probably win. So I think our best match is Dingo versus Coyote. I wouldn't think that it would be a match with a wolf. Yeah, the wolf would probably win. I'd probably bet on the wolf like 80% of the time, but I think the Dingo from time to time would eke out a win. Yeah, so that's kind of what I'm thinking.

Can you guys think of any other good contenders for the Dingo? So like who wins? You're not even telling us who wins. Well, I don't know. I think between a dingo and a coyote, I'd probably pick the dingo. Really? And the main reason is because I think it's scrappy. Yeah, they are scrappy.

They can take down kangaroos. They hunt better in packs. But that's like as a pack. Aren't we doing like a one-on-one? Yeah. In a one-on-one, though, I think I would still pick the dingo. Just because to me it seems like they're a little bit bigger, a little bit scrappier than your typical coyote. A little more screws loose.

Yeah, they're Australian. Yeah, exactly. Used to bringing down bigger prey. Even if it is in a pack, they still have to interact with bigger prey. And so I just, I think I would pick coyote. But I do think it's like a really close battle between these two. Or sorry, dingo. Yeah, okay.

Dingo. Coala? The dingo would be the koala. Yeah. I think there's some instances of that. I do want to talk again briefly about dingo conservation. Dingoes, as we mentioned in the first episode, are protected and Australian national parks, but are considered feral wildlife outside of those parks. So they are

killed directly. They're runoff of land. They're cold. They're fenced out. They've also lost a lot of habitat. Those are their main threats. I had read a lot about hybridization was a big threat for them, that they were breeding with domestic dogs. And so like pure dingo strain was like kind of being lost to the world. But then I read a recent study that showed that that's actually probably not the case and that they're not hybridizing at nearly the level that we thought. And there's still a lot of pure dingoes out there in the outback. So that's kind of the main threats facing them. And then our last category, maybe our most important category, how much do we like this animal? So Payne, the three of us will do on a scale of one to ten, and Jeff will two. And then Jeff's also

going to give them an almost completely arbitrary ranking. Can I start? Yeah, yeah, yep. This animal sucks. I mean, it's the worst dog ever. I mean, it's just absolutely. I know. It's like, you're doing your thing. you're in the wild, you're feral, but I'm good. You know, like, I've seen better, more behaved versions of you at my friend's house. So it's, you know. So scale of one to ten, how many claws are you giving it? I'll give them three claws.

Okay. What's your favorite animal? Oh, I would have to say maybe, I mean, dogs and cats are either easy because it's like, you know, but I didn't, like, grow up with, like, an obsession of, like, a certain animal, but I did have like a really close interaction with this huge-ass alligator with this alligator tamer guy. And it was pretty badass. And they're just basically dinosaur monsters that are still around. So they're pretty cool.

I don't know. That's a fun one, you know? Who was the alligator tamer if I can ask? It was actually, it's actually really bizarre. There's a like an alligator sanctuary place. in the middle of Colorado and near Crestone. Oh, yeah, I've been there. So it was that place.

Cool. Do you know that guy? Yeah, and I know they had like the alligator from Billy Madison is there. They have like, yeah, it's an interesting place. Totally wild. Yeah, it was an awesome experience. Yeah. Happy Gilmore. Happy Gilmore.

Sorry. Billy Madison has the penguin. That's right. Yeah, right. That's true. I don't know where the penguin is. Chub. I'm going to give dingoes.

I'm going to give dingoes a seven claws. And for me, it's because they're carnivores. I love carnivores. They're kind of the alpha predator of Australia, which I think is cool. They've managed to, like, escape human dominion and flourish and become a wild animal again, which I think is a really cool history. And I think they're a really cool-looking dog. So for me, they're a seven.

Yeah, I'll go. I'm going to give them a five. Real safe. Yeah. Way in the middle. I like predators. So they are. predators and I like that they like hunt together but I don't know I don't think they like I think if I

see one maybe I'll like them more but yeah I'm gonna rank they sound kind of annoying though right like just just a little bit we're like yeah no you sold me a bit steal your baby yeah like I probably given them a six had I not heard you go first what are they overall let's go 297 okay okay Mike this was a this it's a tough story to follow just I feel like this is kind of been like a Dingo kind of double episode. And I know you didn't mean that to be the case. It's just kind of like, it's the reality of like a bird. This was an animal.

It's doing what any other animal would have probably done though. Right. In that circumstance where it's just like, hey, this is a free meal. It's easy. I'm giving them a six. I like them more than I don't. Definitely. I think they're kind of cute in their own way.

But I'm not dying to go out and hang out with them, you know. Right. Spend a night out on the town of them. The name dingo is a great name. Yeah. I'll definitely name your good digo. 3567. Pretty good.

Well, Payne, thanks again. Oh, Jeff, go ahead. Before we go, I want to throw in for like the what would Jeff and Mike do. Like, I'd show all the evidence if I was her lawyer. That's a good, that's a great idea. Yeah. And then, Payne, one funny thing is I was like kind of flirting with this girl the other day. I made a joke like, oh, you would just break up with me for, like,

like different podcaster and she was like yeah pain lindsay oh my god i was like yeah oh my what should i text her back yeah i'm just saying i'll set it up but i just started she's serving that screenshot i was like oh like this is weird when you're like on this newest episode that's now i'm like to i think i set it up cliche like podcaster name like who's a guy that's like a does that thing oh pain lindsay yeah pain lindsay What is he doing these days? It's a good name. It's so jealous.

Thank you. You have no idea. As a kid it sucked, though. It was like, Payne, Lindsay, and then now I'm like, well, thank God. I mean, there's not many of them that I've found. I guess that's cool. Well, Payne, thanks so much for being on the show. It's been a blast.

Again, if you guys ever feel like you're in a true crime mood, which I know a lot of you probably are, check out up and vanished. Payne, do you have any other projects that you want to plug that you're working on right now? I would just say, I mean, my personal favorite podcast that I've made is called Radio Rental. It's like a, kind of my version of the Twilight Zone, Unsolved Mysteries, and they're all true stories. But there's like a, you know, Ray Wilson plays this weird shopkeeper, but all the stories are real. It's, it's its own thing. It's fun.

It's not too heavy. And so I would recommend that if you haven't heard of it. Yeah, I listened to that one too, and I really liked it a lot. And Rain Wilson's great on that. Yeah, well, we really appreciate you coming on here. It definitely means the world to us. For sure. And thanks for talking about dingoes and true crime and dead babies and all sorts of other stuff.

My favorite stuff to talk about. I mean, yeah. Well, we appreciate it. And thanks again, guys, for listening. We love you all. All right. You see it. See you guys.