Tooth & Claw: True Stories of Animal Attacks - Grizzly Bear Attack - A Grizzly Daddy Daughter Date

Episode Date: January 26, 2021

Wes takes us up to Glacier National Park to talk about another grizzly bear encounter, this time involving a man and his recently graduated daughter who decided to take a little trip up to Northern Montana together. The bear who attacked them probably didn't realize that this was a celebratory trip, otherwise it may have let their trespass into its territory slide.  ~~ To advertise on the show, contact us! ~~ Tooth & Claw is brought to you by QCODE. Support the show and get access to an extensive library of exclusive episodes like this by supporting the show on Patreon or joining the Grizzly Club on Apple Podcasts. For the latest updates on the show and all things wildlife, follow us at toothandclawpod.com and social:  Instagram: @ToothandClawPodcast Twitter: @ToothandClawPod Wes: @GrizKid Jeff: @jefe_larson Mike: @mikey3ds                          Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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And because you're a listener, you get 20% off your first order. Just head to mood.com. That's M-O-O-D.com to get started. Hey, everyone. Welcome back to another episode of Tooth and Claw, a show where we talk about the most intense real wild animal attacks and what we can learn about how to avoid, prevent, and survive them. Today's episode is on Grizzly Bears. That's right, the Gris Kids taking us all back to his roots.

We have a really good story this time, with some really fun and likable characters. I think you're all really going to enjoy this one. But first, this episode has been brought to you by author and friend of the show, Emma Walker, and her new book, Dead Reckoning, learning from accidents in the outdoor. I'll let Wes talk more about that in a second, but suffice it to say that if you enjoy this podcast, I think you're really going to like this book. Don't forget to follow us at Tooth and Claw podcast on Instagram for a chance to win your very own copy of Emma's new book. All right, let's get to the episode.

All right, so guys, we got a little bit of business to get to, just a little. Business. I'm down to business. Yeah. So I recently was interviewed for a book that's coming out that kind of deals with lots of different survival situations and stuff that people kind of do wrong in the wilderness. and there's a lot of good tips in there and stuff to help people do the right thing in the wilderness, too. So this book is actually called Dead Reckoning, Learning from Accidents in the Outdoors. That's a good title.

It is. Yeah. That's a 10 out of 10 title. Yeah, it's a perfect title. It's written by this person, Emma Walker, and it's Falcon Books that's publishing it. So I don't know if you know Falcon Books, but they do lots of, like, trail guides. Like, I remember there's this sporting goods store in Montana, and they carry Falcon Books, and they have like best hot springs in the west, you know, best hikes in glacier, best hikes in the

bear tubes. Like they have this whole series of guidebooks, but then they also have these more informative books as well. And that's what this one is. And I read a bit of this book. I got sent an advanced copy because I'm quoted in it. Yeah. Well, you know, in this case, it wasn't me being an influencer.

It was me being a bear biologist. But they sent me an advanced copy. And there's some really good info about bears, about mountain lions, about. some other critters, and then just about like general things that you shouldn't do in the wilderness and things you should do in the wilderness. It's a great book. Again, it's by Emma Walker. It's called Dead Reckoning, Learning from Accidents in the Outdoors. It's coming out of the spring sometime. So I just wanted to kind of plug it. Yeah, and it's one that's great because it's personal because I'm in it and it's something that we're talking about. Yeah, it's super topical. Yeah. So yeah,

again, it's coming out this spring. We actually, Falcon is going to give us five copies to gift to some of you listeners. So at some point this spring, we're going to do a giveaway on the Instagram. Do The Club podcast on Instagram. We'll be doing a giveaway. Thanks again, Emma, for including me in the book and for reaching out to us because we're happy to promote it. Friend of the show, Emma.

We can call her friend of the show, right? Yeah, Emma, Emma also, she thinks that we should do a pig episode at some time. So I think that's a good idea. So we'll see if we get to it. Anyway, all right, sweet. Mike, got a question for you. I'm ready. Who do you got in the big fight?

Right. What? Godzilla and King Kong. Oh, this is the most ridiculous. I don't understand how this is a matchup at all. Godzilla's like 300 meters tall and can blast like nuclear hyperbeams out of his mouth. King Kong is just like a big gorilla. In the reboot, King Kong's as big as Godzilla.

But I agree. I'm with you. Yeah. Jeff's. I'm a Kong head. Well, you know, we're just going to have to wait to see. Anyway, we are back. This weekend, the three of us got together.

with a couple other friends. We had a movie trilogy, which is something we're just doing every once in a while now, just watching a trilogy. It's like a monthly thing at this point almost. Yeah, yeah, it's fun. We watched the Indiana Jones films,

which we selected using a selection method that I think is pretty unique to our friendship. We've had it for like five or six years now. Yeah, it's at least six years. So what we do, a lot of you out there are probably familiar with the game Super Smash Brothers. Why don't you guys explain it,

actually since you guys developed this whole method. Yeah, so it's Smash Brothers, but you can set the settings so that it's only computer players fighting each other. So me and Mike would be deciding where we're going to get dinner, and we would smash for it. Like I would choose Little Caesars. He would choose Chucky Cheese. Chucky Cheese, and then we would have one that neither of us wanted.

And we would assign each of those options to a different computer player. and Smash Brothers and then have them fight it out to see which one won. So for the movie marathon, we all chose a character and then had the computer fight as representing our movie choices. And then whichever character won, those movies are what we had to watch. Mine won. I picked King K. Rule. Bad Jeff, not this Jeff. Our other friend Jeff, we call him Bad Jeff, just to avoid confusion.

He wasn't happy about Indiana Jones. No. That was weird to me. I feel a little bad. That seems like such a crowd pleaser. Yeah. And I thought it was great. I thought it was great.

Anyway, it's a really fun way to select stuff. I think we all appreciate that it's become like this sacred thing to where when we have to respect the outcome of whatever happens. No matter what. Yeah. Jeff and I actually have a trip to Arkansas that needs to happen sometime in the future. Arkansas won a smash bet for one of our trips. Anyway, it's a great way to decide things or to like.

like have bets or pranks or whatever. You just do a smash bet. So I guess we'll just launch into our story. A little bit of background. So this is another grizzly bear story. There are so many grizzly shark mountain lion. There's like a few species of animal or types of animal out there that there's like so many stories about them that we're definitely going to have to kind of do multiple on those animals.

We actually got a listener question today about kind of what our process is. And generally I'm doing all the research for the. and I like to find a story that has a good narrative to it, that you kind of have some background information and a little bit more information on the attack. Intrigue. Yeah, and a lot of those are four or five different animals that the majority of those are focused on. So I just want to prepare you guys.

Like, we are going to have some repeat animals, but I think it's great because some of those animals are the animals that we know the most about. So they're really fun to talk about. So we're doing another grizzly story today. This is a good story. This is actually one that mine and Jeff. mom recommended. Oh, go mom.

Go mom. It's one of her favorites, and it happened up in Montana. Yeah, she sent me a book with the story, but she sent it to an address I had like two years ago. Yeah, so someone got a nice book. I'm still fresh to the story. Good. Perfect. Yeah.

So this attack involves a father and a daughter. Johann and Jenna Otter are their names. Now, as Jeff mentioned, there's a book. about this attack. There's a lot of articles about it. What I used for my main source of information was a really in-depth interview they did for ABC News, this little show called In an Instant. It was like an hour and a half long and they really went in depth on everything that happened. So, Johan and Jenna, they're part of a family of four. It's the three, the wife, two daughters, and the dad. And in 2005, Jenna graduated from high school. She had a full scholarship to go to UC Irvine.

She's like really smart, really excited to kind of make this next jump in her life. But as a graduation trip and present, her and her dad decided to drive throughout the Rockies with the goal being Glacier National Park where they're going to do a bunch of hiking. That's a cool graduation trip. It is. Yeah. And, you know, we've all been to Glacier together. Me and Jeff have been to Glacier a billion times.

It's kind of our park. And so we know that park really well. So it's really interesting reading an attack that happened there. So both Jenna and Johan are really similar in the, They're both really easygoing people. They're super athletic. They love hiking and adventuring together. They're also really both fascinated with wildlife,

and Glacier National Park was one of their favorite places in the world. So Jenna had recently been obsessed with kind of wilderness hiking, and she really wanted to get on some trails that were a little bit less used. But they took this long drive from California up through the Rockies, and when they get to Glacier, they were staying in many Glacier, and right outside of their hotel, when they got there, it was a grizzly bear just kind of hanging out. eating some grass and berries and stuff.

Oh, cool. Yeah, and the two of them are really excited to see that. Now, a little bit about grizzlies and glacier. North America's home to about 58,000 grizzly bears, the majority of them living in Canada and Alaska, but about 300 grizzly bears called Glacier National Park home. They're eating mostly vegetation, carrion, insects, but they will kill larger prey when they get the opportunity.

So anything from like elk calves to deer... Otters? Otters. Yeah, otters. Wait, why otters? That's their last name. These people's last name. So Grizzly bears in Montana are smaller than the ones you're going to see in, like, coastal Alaska.

They average around 500 pounds for males, about 300 pounds for females. But their weights are really variable, so they can be a lot bigger than that. We've seen some really big bears in Glacier that are definitely bigger than 500 pounds. Okay. I didn't know that. I'm surprised only 300 live in Glacier. Yeah, it's probably. probably a little bit more than that. That was the last census they did or population count. It was around that. But I bet it's more. I mean, I think it's probably like four or 500 even. Not 500. Probably closer to four. And then there's that whole ecosystem's called the Northern Continental Divide ecosystem. And in that ecosystem, there's more than a thousand bears. So that goes down into like the Flathead Valley and up through into Canada a little bit. So Cubs stay with their moms about two and a half years. Bears in Montana.

are often more territorial than bears that you'd find in like coastal British Columbia or Alaska. And that's because they're not just like sitting on a salmon stream with tons of food constantly coming at them. They have to patrol a much larger area and therefore they're much more territorial, much more prone to kind of defend themselves from other bears because they're not used to. Kind of like me just when I get hungry or I'm angry. Yeah. More aggressive. Yeah.

Jeff gets real angry. You find a bear that's a little hungrier, it's going to be a little more aggressive. Totally. And the fact that, like, in these salmon streams, they're used to being around a bunch of other bears, but these ones that aren't on salmon streams aren't used to other bears. They're not really used to other, like, to people. Probably less people. Exactly.

Just less everything. A couple other things we've talked about this a little bit. Bears are really amazing animals. They have a bite force of 1,100 PSI. That's strong enough to crush a bowling ball. Grizzly bears have really long claws. they're extremely strong. They have that really big shoulder hump that's for digging.

They're just like a really impressive, amazing animal. They can run up to 30, 35 miles per hour. That's why Grizzlies have that shoulder hump. It's a massive muscle, and it's specifically there to help them be really good at digging. Give them more shoulder muscle to dig. Yep. I see it. Anyway, Johan and Jenna had made plans to leave early the next morning to start their hike.

Now, they had decided to hike to Grinnell Glacier, which is a hike that we've done, like, probably four or five times or even more. And then they were actually going to go over to the opposite side of the valley and do iceberg lake right afterward. And if I'm doing a hike to find a grizzly bear in Montana, those are my first two choices. That's what I was just about to say. Like, if you are in glacier and you want to do some hikes that aren't that hard,

but you have some good chances of seeing bears, Grinnell Glacier Trail, and Iceberg Trail are two of the best. So they decided to leave pretty early. Jenna wanted to leave like nine. because she had read that business hours are like the best time to avoid bears, which is very true. Her dad, Johan, wanted to leave really early. And bears are crepuscular, which means they're really active in the morning and the evening. So if you do go out really early or if you go out in the afternoon, you have a higher chance of seeing a bear.

And she kind of wanted to avoid that time. So they negotiated and finally they agreed on leaving at 7.30. Johan really wanted to be the first people on the trail, which is another really great way to see a bear. if you're the first one or the last one on the trail. I would be on Yohan's side just like trying to see a bit. So they start on the trail on the morning of August 25th. And as they're hiking, they're talking about Jenna leaving for college. Johan's talking about maybe qualifying for the Boston Marathon again,

which he'd already done twice. And Johan's really into photography, so he's stopping to take photos. And as he's stopping, Jenna's getting ahead of him and he's having to kind of run to catch up with her. So as they're five miles into the hike, Jenna kind of has some nervous energy because she'd seen this bear yesterday and she wanted to avoid bears. And that's starting to fade.

They're on one of the most beautiful hikes in the country. The Grinnell Glacier Trail is spectacular. You're hiking along this cliffside. You're looking down at Grinnell Lake, which is this bright blue color. And then you're hiking to Upper Grinnell, which has an actual glacier inside of it. It's probably my favorite trail in the park. So they had just gotten to this part of the trail where the trail gets really steep and rocky. and there's a drop off on the left-hand side

and then a really sheer cliff on the right. So, Jeff, this is pretty much where me and you took some photos where we were down on those rocks. And we were with mom, and she was, like, getting nervous that we were too close to the cliff. Do you remember that at all? We took a lot of pictures.

Yeah, it was like ones where we were out and you can see Grinnell Lake down below us and we were on a pretty sheer rock cliff. I think I know where you're talking. So that's where they were. So it's like a pretty far drop off off the trail, and then it's like just a cliff on their right. So they're on this part and Jenna's leading and she gets around a blind corner and Johan looks up to see Jenna and she's stepping back really slowly and she has this look of like intense fear on her face.

So he knew that she was in danger but he didn't really know why or what she had seen. So he rushed up and actually like pushed her out of the way and pushed himself in front of her to get in between her and whatever was on the trail that he couldn't see. Now what he didn't know was that she had just surprised a female grizzly with two cubs. the bear was only eight feet away from her when she had seen it. So he, like, pushed himself right in front of this bear. As he pushed in front of her, she turned in fear, fell down, passed out, just blacked out. Oh, jeez. So Johan had, like, half a second to realize that he was face to face with the charging grizzly,

and then the bear makes contact. So he said that that half a second felt like a lifetime, because he just, like, could see its claws and its teeth coming at him, and then it just hit him. So he just saw Jenna as a little girl, saw her swinging on a swing as like a four-year-old, saw her eighth birthday party, and then the bear got it. Sorry, and then pass out. Relax and let Ralph's delivery handle your grocery shopping this week. We start with only the freshest items, then review your list and carefully choose each one.

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So the bear bites down into his thigh, and that's when kind of he realized that he was being attacked by a grizzly. And in his own words, that that wasn't good. Which it isn't. Then the bear bites into his thigh again. it jumps at Johann, it rakes his face with its claws. And while this is happening, Jenna starts to come too. And in days she looks out and she sees her dad being mulled by this bear. And Johann gets up, he backs to the edge of the cliff, which is on the left side of the trail.

And he looks down and he sees some bushes about 25 feet down. So in a desperate attempt to get away from the bear, he launches himself off of this cliff and lands in these bushes like 25 feet below. Whoa. Yeah. So it gets crazier even. Jenna looks around and she sees that the bear spray had fallen out of the side pouch of Johan's bag.

And she grabs it, but the can, I think, had been a little damaged. And she couldn't, she, like, couldn't figure out how to get the safety off. Which is something we're going to talk about at the end of this episode. But she was having such a hard time with it that she just abandoned it. And meanwhile, Johan's down there yelling at her to, like, jump off this cliff as well. So Jenna looks up. She sees the bear coming at her. she abandons this bear spray and she jumps off a ledge too.

And she actually blacks out again while she's falling. What? Yeah. That doesn't seem possible. Yeah, that's what she said. Like she mid-air blacks out and then wakes up again right as she hits and like hits her tailbone on a rock ledge. Just like she didn't hit the bushes.

She landed on a rock ledge like right on her tailbone. So Johan sees Jenna fall and he looks up to see the bear running down the rocks toward him. And he's like astounded at how. agile this bear is and how fast it's getting to him. Because it's like really rocky and the bear's just navigating them like it's nothing. So the bear gets down to him. Within a couple seconds, it's mauling him again. So he rolls onto his stomach, puts his arm over his neck in the fetal position,

which is actually what you're supposed to do if a bear is actually attacking you. Roll over onto your stomach. If you don't have bear spray or anything like that, get in the fetal position, protect your neck. So he did the right thing there. So the bear starts pulling on Johan's backpack. and it's like lifting them up and down off the ground. And it's a really good idea then to keep your backpack on if you're in that situation. That was another thing I wanted to mention.

Because then the bear's tearing into that before it gets to you. And maybe it'll find like a snack in there. It honestly might. Yeah. That will like postpone it even longer. Yeah. That's a good thing. Also, if you're being chased by a bear,

sometimes it's a good idea to drop a backpack or something because then the bear will like see it and investigate that and stop for a minute. You shouldn't run from bears, but if for whatever reason, Like I just saw this video. But then you lose your protection. You do. If it malsh you. But I just saw this video in Romania of this skier who was going down like a ski lift and a bear was chasing him.

We had a listener question about that. Yeah. And he dropped his backpack and the bear stopped at the backpack and he got away because of it. Okay. So it's kind of like it's not a situation you want to find yourself in, but it can work. Well, just wear two backpacks. Then you drop one and you still have one. Anyways, while this bear is ripping into his backpack and lifting him off the ground with it,

he realizes that Jenna has no backpack, no protection whatsoever. So he really wanted to keep the bear's focus on him. So he actually grabs the bear while it's mulling him and like holds onto it and manages to roll away from the trail with the bear. So he's kind of like wrestling it at this point. Yeah. That's awesome. I thought these bears were like so big.

You wouldn't. It's probably, I mean, they're about 300 pounds average, that female grizzly. Yeah, okay. So it could be anywhere, you know, in that range or it could be bigger or smaller. It was probably more just like he was rolling away and he managed to keep the bear with them as he was rolling away. Not like he was physically overpowering. Yeah, okay. So Jenna, she's on this ledge.

She finds a small bush and she crawls into it and goes in the fetal position to hide from the bear. But at this point, she just thinks she's going to die. So Johan and the bear are like rolling away from the trail and the two plunge off a cliff. This one's a 30 foot cliff. But as he was falling, he remembers like looking into the bear's eyes. and like realizing how out of control this situation is and how this bear can just kill him if he wants to. Yeah.

But he had managed to get the bear further from Jenna, which was kind of his main goal at this point. So when he landed, he tried to grab a rock to hit the bear, but in glacier, if you've ever been to glacier, it's mostly shale and it can be really crumbly, and he grabbed like a piece of pretty crumbly shale, and like when he hit it, it just kind of evaporated or shattered, yeah. So when he does that, the bear proceeded to rip into his head and his arm with its teeth and claws,

and Johan then begins to pass out. But the sensation of his neck breaking and teeth entering the back of his skull jolt him back into reality. So he described actually feeling these teeth like dragging across his skull and like puncturing the back of his head. So Jenna then looks down over the ledge and she sees there's a hundred foot drop off of her ledge. So she's on like a really big one. And for a second, she considers whether or not she just wants to jump and kill herself or get mauled by this bear. I'd be pissed if I was Johann and she jumped. It's like, I just took it down this cliff to get it away from you.

I think I wouldn't, I'd be sad more than pissed. Oh, I'd be mad. That's real sad that my daughter just died. But you can feel however you want to feel about things. At this point, Johann's playing dead. he felt like the bear was either going to kill him or leave him disabled. So he felt like he wasn't going to be able to help Jenna if the bear, you know, was done with him and went after her.

So once again, like he realizes that it's not a good strategy to just play dead. He wants to like keep its focus on him. So he rips himself away from the bear and he throws himself off the closest ledge again. So he falls another 25 feet. Okay. So at this point he's falling like 80 feet. And this time he lands on some bear. big rocks below. And he said that at this point there's like blood and stuff all over his face,

so he couldn't see out of his right eye. But he could see out of his left eye and he realized that if he does this again, his strategy of just throwing himself off cliffs, the next one would be a fatal fault because it's more than 100 feet. He's going to have a really hard time in his Boston marathon. Yeah, we're going to talk about that. So the bear's looking down at Johann and he starts to get really angry. And he came up with this plan that he like self-described plan, that if the bear came down to him, he would grab it and throw it off this cliff. A good place. No, he should have done a great plan.

Pretty unrealistic, too, though. I think maybe again, if he kind of got the bear tangled up with him and he rolled off, there's a chance the bear goes with him. But unfortunately, the bear disappears. And then moments later, he hears the thing that he's been dreading, which is Jenna screaming. So Jenna heard the heavy breathing of the bears that's coming towards her. She turns around and the bear's right in her face sniffing her.

and it puts one paw on either side of her head. And then Jenna comes out of this fetal position and she's on her back. And she puts her hands on either side of the bear's head and like pushes away. And she said it was like if you were trying to push a dog away or something. Unsurprisingly, this doesn't work. And the bear takes Jenna's head in its jaws and thrashes her from side to side. So she says she can feel its lower jaw under her lower jaw and its upper jaw on the back of her head. So her entire noggins in the mouth.

Yeah, so her entire head is in there. And she doesn't feel any pain at all, but she feels an intense pressure. And as we mentioned before, they could literally bust a bowling ball with that pressure. So if this bear really just decided to want to kill her, it probably could. Now it would be a good time for her to black out. Yeah, exactly. She's been good at blacking out so far. She should do it now.

So Johan's hearing these deep guttural screams of his daughter. At this point, completely unable to help her for the worst part of this attack. And, you know, so far he's been able to keep the bear away from her, but now he's like mauled, he's broken, he's down the cliff a little ways. He's like completely powerless to help. So then the bear releases Jenna, and she remembers her mind like going completely blank.

She doesn't black out, but she just is thinking of nothing. And the bear takes her right shoulder in its mouth and it thrashes her over to the left, and then she decides to play dead. She's not screaming, she's not doing anything. She's just completely motionless. And the bear looks at her, looks towards its cubs, and runs off.

So that's the end of the bear portion of this story. Do you guys have any questions up until this point? Makes me kind of want to hike Grinnell. I know, me too. I know. Every time I've hiked Grinnell, I've seen a grizzly. I've never once hiked that trail without seeing a grizzly. It's very good grizzly country.

So a little bit now about what's going on with Jenna and Yohan. The bear's left. Jenna's lying on the ledge. She feels like she's dying. And she remembers thinking she's bummed that she's not going to live past 18 because she kind of has our whole life. ahead of her. But then she snaps back to reality when she hears her dad, Johan, yelling from below. And the two are both instantly relieved to hear each other's voices and knowing that they both

survive the attack. So Johan's down below, and he feels something stringy, like hanging on his face. And only his left eye is working, and he's worried that his right eye is, like, disconnected and hanging out. But then he, like, managed to reach up there and force open his eyelid, and he's really relieved because he can see, he sees the lake, his eyes working, but he still feels these stringy things, and he reaches up to the top of his head and he's just touching bare bone. Oh my gosh. His scalp had been completely shredded, and the stringy part was all the strings of his scalp hanging in front of his face and hitting his face. Yeah. He also then reaches down to see a huge open

hole in his arm, and he's fascinated because as he moves his hand, he can see all the tendons and stuff in his arm working. So he gets this little window into his body, which gives me the willies whenever that happens in one of these stories. Like I think of the hippo one where they had that big gaping hole and they could see the lung inflating. Yeah. I don't want to see the parts of my body working, not the inside parts.

It's like such a surreal feeling, I bet, to like look inside your own body. Yeah, and to like, even you seeing your bone when you cut your fingers. The one I was thinking was I was playing basketball and I tore my petteler tendon. and my kneecap went halfway up my thigh. Oh, that one. And like, I just had like a kneecap in the middle of my thigh. Yeah. And it's like a surreal, like, almost like outer body experience where I was like looking at my leg.

Yeah. Just like completely. Yeah. But it's not on this guy's level. Yeah. Just so you know, we call those out of body experience, not outer body. Outer. Outer.

Yeah, I mean it. Either way. Okay. John starts, or sorry, not John. Johann stopped assessing his injuries. He decides to put his jacket over his flayed scalp and try and crawl up this ledge to Jenna. But within a few minutes of trying that, he realizes, like, it's not happening. He was mostly worried about, like, what he would look like to other people, like, if someone else showed up or, like, his daughter.

So he didn't want to, like, scare them, so he wanted to cover up his skull. That's really considered. It was. These two are very considerate. Like, we're going to get to more of that. So Jenna's also assessing her wounds. She feels a gash at the base of her neck. She sticks her finger into it, and it goes up to the first joint of her finger.

So it's a pretty deep gash. And then she also has a large cut on her face and her head and her mouth. Her mouth had actually been ripped open on one side, and she said it was flappy, where her words. But what I kind of imagine is like the Joker and the Dark Night, like only like half of that, though. It was kind of like ripped open, cut into like a big smile. The Glasgow smile. Yeah, she's going to have like a cool villain or something. story. Anyway, so the two stayed where they were and they started yelling for help.

I want to know how I got these scars. Jenna starts noticing that her dad's calling for help less and less and that he's maybe starting to lose consciousness. Now the thing that they did have going for them is that they're on a really well-used trail and glacier. So they're screaming for about 30 minutes when finally some help arrives. So it's this guy and his wife, Jim Knapp, and Kathy McDonald. They're on their honeymoon and they're hoping to have this kind of a relaxed day hiking and glacier, but about halfway up their hike, they hear these screams and they run to investigate. They round the corner, they couldn't see any signs of anyone or anything that had happened. So they actually took a while to find out where these people were, and they finally

find Jenna, and then she yells that they'd been attacked by a bear and they're her dad's below her. So Kathy runs to go find a ranger, and Jim stays to help, and he actually climbs down to Jenna, who immediately apologizes to him for, like, how she, she looks and for ruining his day. So Jim said that her lip was like hanging off, her ankle was pointing in a strange direction, and he calmly asked her what had happened, where her dad might be, and she said that she's like she hasn't heard from her dad in a little bit. So Johan's half conscious, he wakes up to see Jim coming down to help him. And pretty much Jim's like laying there trying to help him. Johan's in a puddle of his own blood. He's looking really messed up. And as he's helping him,

more people are gathering on the trail. And he starts yelling for people to throw down blankets and food and coats or whatever they can. And everyone's doing it. So it's kind of this weird little community thing that's happening. All these people are like waiting around to help them. And as this is all happening, Jenna feels like she's laying on a broken stick. And she asks these rescuers to help her get rid of the stick. And at this point, there's two girls down there helping them too.

And the girl reaches under. Yeah, the girl reaches under and there's no stick. And it's that she had actually broken her back. And her vertebrae were loose, and she was feeling the vertebra shifting around. So Johan's really cold, and one of these women hikers goes down to help him, and she covers him in clothing and, like, cuddles him and just, like, holds him for a while, which was just such a sweet, nice thing, and he just talks about how nice it was and how, like, comforted it made him feel.

So finally, Kathy finds a ranger, this guy, Gary Moses, and they go back, and they try and repel down into them with a basket, It's not working because they can't really get a good anchor on these rocks. So finally they call in a helicopter, and the helicopter lowers a guy with one of those boards, and the guy loads them onto the boards, and one by one, they get them out. And when Jenna and Johan first saw each other, when they finally get out, they both start crying. Jenna tells Johan that he saved her life, which it's possible that he did. It's also very possible that he triggered the attack by rushing out in front of Jenna.

So Johan has 26 major wounds throughout his body. He's missing about 75% of his scalp. He has a C2 vertebrae compound fracture. The muscle below his eye socket had been completely ripped out, and that took, like, years to recover. I guess that was one of his longest recovery things. But he was running a marathon in less than six months since the attack. That's crazy.

Which is pretty amazing. Jenna broke her tailbone and a vertebrae, as we mentioned. She had lacerations all over her face. A really cool thing, though. I really like these two a lot. The doctors asked Jenna if they wanted to do like restorative stuff on the scar that she had by her mouth. And she said she wanted to keep it. Good call, Jenna.

Yeah. Because she thinks scars show your life experience and like are kind of interesting, which is pretty badass. Yeah, I'm a big fan of scar. Yeah. And like I saw her in the interview and it's not it's not that noticeable of a scar, but you can definitely see it. But it would just be like a pretty cool thing if people were like, hey, what's that scar from? I mean, that's an all-time great scars. That's where a bear ripped my scar.

made my face open. My dad and I jumped off like 40 cliffs and his bear was... The only thing that would suck is it would never be a quick story. You can't just be like, oh, a bear scratched me. Yeah. Like you'd have to get out of it. Yeah, if you wanted to get out of it, you could be like a hiking incident. Like a hiking problem.

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and some of the other rescuers. Oh, cool. There's like good people. Yeah. grizzly tale, a father and daughter survival story, which someone in Utah got that book for free. Thanks, mom. Thanks, mom. I think this is a really interesting story because it's a story of two different parents defending

their offspring. You've got this female grizzly that's protecting her cubs, and then you've got this dad who's protecting his daughter. And one of them definitely did a better job. So a little bit just about this particular attack. So recently I read a story, or not a story. I read a publication about bear attacks around the world, specifically brown bears, which is just another grizzly bear is another name for brown bear. And they talked about the most prevalent scenarios that lead to brown bear attacks.

And the most prevalent one is a female with cubs. About 47% of the attacks that they looked at started because someone surprised a female with cubs. Next is just any kind of sudden encounter. That's about 20%. And there's some overlap between these categories. dog presence. So if your dog triggers the attack, that accounted for 17% of the attacks they look at. Do dogs make it more or less likely you get attacked? More with Grizzlies. As a listening question. Yeah. With Grizzlies, they can increase the chances of you getting attacked.

The next was a bear attacking after being shot or trapped. That was about 10%. And then finally, predatory attacks, which were about 5%. So predatory attacks are actually the least out of all these different factors, but they do happen. So this was them surprising a female with Cubs. Now, the way that they could have avoided this, the main thing they could have done is just by sticking together because it talked about how Johan kept kind of getting behind Jenna, and she rounded this blind corner on her own.

And if they had stuck together, and they're just going to naturally be making more noise, and there's a much higher chance that bears are going to hear them coming and decide to take off. But because she went around this corner on her own and she was being somewhat quiet, she saw the bear, and then Johan rushes up into there, and that probably triggered the attack even more so.

To me, the biggest mistake seemed like, Johan knew something was up, so he should have just taken his bear spray out right when he saw her backing up and had that ready and then gone in front of her. I was going to say he should have had his camera ready because something cool was obviously about to happen. He could have got a lot better picture,

Yeah. Especially with Grinnell Lake in the background. I know, that would have been a great photo. So Jeff's right. If you, you know, if you're on a trail like that, Grinnell or anywhere where you have a high chance of seen a grizzly, you want to have your bear spray really accessible. So he had it in like a side pocket of his backpack, which isn't where you want it. You want it like on the holster on your side. And you also, the other thing I wanted to bring up that I briefly mentioned, you want to get real familiar with taking that safety off.

because like in this situation, they had like seconds to respond. And had Jenna especially been able to grab that can and get that safety off in time, she could have stopped this attack. And there would have had a much less intense of an attack. So really, Jeff makes a great point. Having your bearspray ready to go is the main thing. You don't want to rush up and push in front of someone else if you don't have a way to stop the attack either.

Like it's really noble and admirable of him that he just sacrifices himself. but he also probably antagonized that bear a little bit more than he needed to. Yeah. Okay. So that's kind of what I wanted to talk about with this attack. If you're hiking in a place with lots of grizzlies, have your bear spray, have it ready to go, know how to use it, make plenty of noise when you're hiking on the trail. Hike in groups. If you do all those things, your chances of having a bad experience with the bear are really low.

And the nice thing about these kind of places, you can have a really great experience with the bear. Like all the bears I've seen on the Grinnell Trail, it's been wonderful. Like, seen them from a distance. One was a female with Cubs that was fairly close, but she knew we were there. We knew she was there. We got to enjoy it and just watch her, and it was really great. So that's the kind of experience you want. Questions about the story?

How many times did you say you have practiced with bear spray safety? Thousands. Thousands just drive iron in your apartment. Sometimes I'll literally sit in my apartment and just slide it on and off. Oh. Well, I had a training canister, too. that would spray like this spray of like an alcohol spray almost. I like rubbing alcohol.

And that one I just played with all the time. So I've gotten pretty good at it. I can do it without thinking. Do you think you're the fastest in the West? The fastest draw in the West. No, probably not, but I think I'm probably up there. I'd like to be in the competition. Yeah.

How close would you want to get to a grizzly bear in Glacier? In Glacier, like how close would I personally try and get? Would you be excited rounding the curb corner like she did? I would be, like, thrilled. I was thinking, like, the people that came up to, like, help him. Yeah. You would be, like, where'd the bear go? Yeah, exactly.

You would just leave him. I don't ever want to get attacked by a grizzly, and I don't ever want to, like, stress out a grizzly either. But I, like, last, not, in 2019, I was there, and we saw a grizzly on that trail, and some people said that they were, like, walking down the trail, and the bear walked out in front of them 10 feet away and just crossed. and just crossed right in front of them in the trail. Oh, wow. And they were so shaken and, like, really scared, and I was just so jealous. Yeah. So, for me, I love that feeling of, like, knowing they're around, but I don't ever want to get attacked.

Never? I don't. Whoa, that's a strong stance. If I get attacked by a bear, I feel like I'm not a great representative for, like, bear safety and everything. I'm probably most... Usually when people get attacked by a bear, they're doing something wrong. Yeah. It makes sense that the bear went for the guy's thighs first.

Why's that? In being a marathon runner. Probably had some real meat on those legs. Yeah. Would a bear be able to beat a human in a marathon, like a long distance run? No. No. They're just not built for distance.

No. There's only like a couple animals that could. Yeah. I mean, they beat us in like a 400 or anything below that, but anything over that, I think we're probably going to win. At a certain distance, I don't know what it is. Humans are the fastest animal on earth. Because we can just run and run and run. But they get a really long distance, we're like the fastest.

What about those birds that migrate like four million miles? You're talking about running, not flying. Oh, that's a good point. You know, birds can run, too. I've seen. That's true. But not for miles and miles and miles. Has that been measured?

No, but I'm just going to tell you. I think we're all at falling in here. I don't think so. I think mostly just you. Okay. Where were we? Bears running marathon. The last thing I wanted to say is that this was not a predatory attack.

A lot of times when these things hit the news, it's like, you know, because it was biting them, they think it was like trying to eat them. It wasn't. It was just trying to neutralize them because it had cubs. And once it had done that, it left. So that's what this was. It was a mom defending her cubs. And one more thing. We say this in a lot of our episodes.

Don't let the story scare you from visiting these kind of places or, like, feel like we have too many bears or something like that because that's not the case. You just need to be smart and prepared and just, you know, take that risk. That's part of enjoying the wilderness. Like, that's the fun part is that you have to deal with some stuff that you don't have to deal with in your living room. I mean, Jeff sprained his knee while laying in bed. There's an inherent risk to living. Yeah. And you might as well go out and enjoy it.

Right. Well, Johann hikes it every year right now. Yeah, it didn't ruin his life. Yeah, exactly. You shouldn't let fear of these animals ruin your desire to go out and enjoy the wilderness. And if you are that afraid of them, if you're absolutely terrified of bears, then maybe, you know, like hiking and glacier just isn't your thing. Right. Okay, so we're going to get into our categories.

Our first category. So what's your favorite grizzly bear from any kind of media or in real life or whatever? Jeff, you want to go first? Yeah, I'll go with the grizzly bear in Legends of the Fall. Okay. Just like a real cool bear wants to help Brad Pitt prove his manhood. All right. I like that.

So we actually have the same answer because that's Bart, the bear, who is like a really famous movie bear. He was in Legend of the Fall. He was in The Edge, a bunch of other movies from the 90s. And that's probably my favorite grizzly ever. Yeah, I'm going to go with Bart. We kind of have the same answer. Mike? I'm going to go with the bear that killed Timothy.

Timothy Treidwell. Yeah, that was a runner-up. So this maybe says a lot about who I am as a person, but I like when humans get put in their place. Yeah. At some point we're going to talk about Timothy Treadwell. I'd like to hear more because I don't know the full story, and I might be speaking out of school here,

but I feel like that bear shoulders zero percent of the blame for what happened. I don't think you are. Like I think Timothy was asking for it. Yeah. But. Victim blaming? It still sucks to get eaten by a bear, and he ended up killing that bear because they had to kill it because it ate him. Yeah, and that's sad.

Okay, so our next category is what would Mike and Jeff do if they were attacked by a grizzly bear? So do you guys have answers for this? Are you ready to go? I put myself in Johan's position. Okay. So I've put myself in between my daughter and the bear. Okay. The bear's coming at me.

Yeah. I run towards the cliff like he did, and I fake jumping off. So then bear comes after me and goes off the cliff. That would work. And then I don't think it's done yet, though, because it can get up and down this cliff. So I grab one of its cubs, and I just hold the cub out towards it. If you go after my daughter, I got the cub right here. I'm holding it over the cliff.

And then I slowly set it down on the ground and take my daughter and walk back. It's like a show of good faith. Okay. Okay. Interesting. No, that's bulletproof. Mike. Yeah, we'll see.

A quick note on baby cubs. I just want to ask real quick. It occurred to me. Would bear spray be actually potentially like really bad for small bears? No, there's not any. It's the same. Yeah. I mean, it's going to suck, but they'll be over in an hour or two.

Cool. How about baby humans? Yeah, it would suck for them. It might put you in the hospital. But it would work. Probably, yeah, it would work. I mean, it would. You would keep them away.

It would stop them. It will kill a baby human. It'll stop them, though, for sure. No. Okay, so what's your tactic? So I've already got my tactic of having two backpacks on, but I'm going to go a step further because you mentioned a couple of times how these bears like eating bowling balls.

So my second backpack's going to have just like five bowling balls in it. Okay. And while it's busy munching the bowling balls, I'm gone. All right. That's good. Okay. So I'm just going to start with yours, Mike, because it's fresh. It's not so much that they like eating bowling balls.

It's more that they could crush a bowling ball if they wanted to. I do think the two backpack idea is interesting. You can drop one and keep one on or whatever. You can have as many backpacks as you know. I should have said like 10. But because of the bowling ball problem, I don't think yours is going to work. you're still going to get mauled probably. But, you know, maybe mostly backpacks.

Jeff, yours is really interesting. I think if you were the most agile, athletic person in the world that's ever existed, maybe you have a chance of, like, tricking a grizzly into sliding off this cliff. I mean, Johann was running Boston marathons. He's pretty athletic. Pretty hard to qualify that. But I just always assumed that, like, any wild animal is going to be much better. and more athletic than you.

So for you to like, you know, break its ankle and juke it and like have it, you know, slip off this cliff is pretty, that's already a stretch. And then something I wanted to ask you is you've picked up a baby Black Bear before. Yeah. Like a pretty fresh one. It was like early July. Was it easy to handle? For me it was.

Once I handed it to you, it freaked out. Yeah. And like I couldn't restrain it. And this is a grizzly. It's probably twice the size. It's in August. So it's quite a bit bigger. I don't think you're picking up these cubs.

You think the cubs are going to get me with? They're too big and it's going to rip into you. And I just don't think you're getting a cub. Do you think the bear would attack me while I'm holding its cub in front of it? Yeah, it's going to be pissed when you're holding its cub. I thought you were going to say you were going to chuck the cuff. No. Yeah.

I was going to threaten to you. Okay. Yeah. Don't do any of those ideas. They're really bad ideas. What you are supposed to do, so we're going to go from Johan and Jenna's attack. Like say you suddenly surprise a bear. If you have bear spray, 100% of your focus should be on getting that bear spray out, getting it ready.

Even if the bear is starting to mall you, you should be thinking about your bear spray and trying to get it out because that will stop that attack. So where they were kind of like abandoned the bear spray real early in that whole thing, that was a pretty big mistake by them. I don't blame them because she was having such a hard time with it and she's worried about her dad. but that should be the main thing you're thinking about. If you are face to face with a bear like that and it has cubs, you're going to want to slowly back away, get your bear spray out, group up. If it does actually attack you and it's like on top of you, only then do you go into the fetal position,

try your best to play dead, be quiet, do whatever you can to kind of let that bear know that you're no longer a threat. So why don't you just apply the bear spray before going out on the hike? It's not bear repellent. It's not like bug spray. No, so that's a really important distinction. And you joke about that, but people every year spray their kids with bear spray, and people end up in the hospital. So, like, it's funny that you joke about that, but please no one out there do that because you will probably have to go to the hospital.

And it's not bear repellent. What it does is, is, like, shoots this big cloud out, and the cloud, it's like mace. It overwhelms its eyes, its nose, its throat, everything. it's just terrible for a bear, so they take off. They hate bear spray. It works really, really well. So only once you're being attacked and it's mauling you, only then do you want to do fetal position and play dead.

Up until that point, you're just trying to slowly back away and use your bear spray and grouping up. Okay, great. I thought we would bring back our anaconda scale for this story. Yeah, it's a good one. It's a good one. I think, though, let's just do Johann because I think it gets a little confusing if we do both of them.

Sure. and Johan's kind of the one that got, well, I guess we could say that it's like, I would say they're ice cube and J-Lo. Okay. I'm giving, I'm giving Johan an ice cube because he really did everything he could to stop this attack and he was like really a hero. So I'm giving him an ice cube. I'm giving him an Owen.

Okay, let's hear why. Because he's the one that really wanted to go early in the morning. So he was kind of putting himself where the bears were. Okay. I'll go, I'll compromise. I'll do the John Voight. because it sounds like... Oh, is that a compromise?

Well, John Voight falls in the middle, right? No. John Voight... Ice Cube's a smart, Owen Wilson dumb. John Void's like the pragmatic evil guy. I feel like it's a triangle, not like a linear. So I'll go with the other triangle point. Because it sounds like it was maybe not the best decision to jump up and maybe potentially

frighten this bear with Cubs when, if they had maybe been a little more strategic about it. Yeah. They may have avoided it. the whole thing altogether. But yeah, to his defense, he didn't know that it would bear with Cubs. Yeah. He just knew she was in trouble. So I think he was being pretty heroic.

Ice Cube and Anaconda doesn't know much about Anacondas, but a few times he's very heroic. Like, he jumps in the water to save J-Lo. True. Okay. So I think it's an ice cube. Okay. It's an ice cube. Okay.

All right. So how about some listener questions? Would you say jumping off of cliffs as an Owen Wilson or an ice cube move? I don't know That's a tough one I've got ice cube Yeah Okay this is from ren

Dot birds What animal do you guys Each want to see That you haven't yet I'm assuming in the wild Yeah I really want to see a jaguar That's like pretty

Like top of my list right now I went to Brazil Just to see one And didn't So that's probably top of my list I'll go For as many times As I've been scuba diving

I've actually never seen An octopus You love octopus Octopi. Octopides. It's another variation of the word you could use. But yeah, that's my answer. Okay.

I like them octoposies. I'm going to give you three, but I'll go on order. I wouldn't expect anything else. Panda would be number one. That's a good one. Jaguar would be two, and then a blue whale because they're just the biggest animal alive. Those are all probably my top ten. My other one, my big one, panda is big up there for me too.

Jaguar Panda and Snow Leopard are probably my top three right now. I just feel like a snow leopard you'd be looking through a gigantic telescope. Maybe. Sometimes people see him up close though. Okay. All right. So Ben Butler, 0.05. Sorry, he asked the same question. Bucket list of animals to see. Yep.

Good question, Ben. Okay. From Clyde Trues. That might be but we'll see. Animal, each of you. is most afraid of. Honestly, it's probably chimpanzees for me. It keeps coming back.

Yeah. Mine would be a rattlesnake. They just freak me out a little stuff. I'm afraid of, it's weird that you brought up blue whale because that came to mind, but just anything so big that it could accidentally swallow me and like not even realize what's going on, those are the ones that freak me out. So like giant aquatic animals. Interesting.

All right. Ritulated pythons. It would know what's quite on me. it would realize what it's doing. Spencer Walter 11. Why are dogs so quick to fight some of these animals off? Don't they know that they're going to get hurt? They're just really confident and they're like protective.

Dogs see us as part of their social group. They want to protect us. And yeah, I mean, I just don't think they understand that they're like 10 times smaller. Yeah. And a lot of times it works. Like a lot of times that confidence is enough to scare off an animal. Sometimes it's enough to enrage an animal though and make your attack. a lot worse than it would have been. Okay, so from Pick Kelsk 28, are polar bears slash grizzly hybrids,

the future of polar bears? So this is a question I get a lot. As grizzlies move further north and polar bears are like having to stay on shore longer, they are starting to hybridize a little bit and they make what's called a groler bear, but it's not happening that much and that's not like the future of polar bears. That's the future of grower bears. That's a new animal. That's a hybrid. So that's not going to be something that polar bears do to survive. It's just happening a little bit, and it's not creating anything that. Do you think Groller Bears is a cool name, or do you think we could do better?

I think it's better than the alternative, which is Pizzley Bears. I kind of like Pizzley. I like Groller better. All right. Groleers kind of won out. I don't know. I'm on the fence. Okay.

From Furlio, Franz. Do people who live in bear country just carry bearspray everywhere? Hard to imagine for me, parentheses, German. Okay. So you guys live in bear spray or bear... We do not be in bear spray. You guys live in bear country. Do you carry bear spray everywhere you go?

No. Yeah, open carry. I assume you do because you're one of the quickest in the West. I don't. It is a good question, though. Just if I'm in really concentrated. Grisly country. Exactly. And some people are going to want to carry it in black bear country too. If you don't if you're worried about bears like you definitely should because it stops them. It's great.

And black bears can attack you. So it's not that like you carried everywhere. It's not that we're like constantly under threat of attack. But if you're somewhere like Grinnell Glacier or Iceberg Lake or somewhere where there's a good chance to seeing a bear, that's when you want to carry it. It seems like there's no downside to carrying bear spray. There's not. I don't know. What if someone tries to like beat me up? It would work. Yeah. Yeah. Our next category is where can you find them. I just wanted to do where you can find them in Glacier because we've talked about where

you can find Brown Bears. So in Glacier, we talked about this a little bit already. Many Glacier is a really good spot to see them. There's some great trails in there where you can see them. If you drive around in the evenings, especially, you can see them off the roadways. St. Mary's area in Glacier is also a really good place to see them. Or up in, like, Logan Pass area. Sometimes you'll see them up there too.

Those are some of the places that I'm. I go when I'm trying to see Grizzlies in Glacier. Okay, how are we messing things up for them? We talked about this in our original Grizzly episode, but the main thing is just habitat loss. And I wanted to bring that up because one of our other listener questions was like, they want us to explain a little bit more like when we just say habitat loss, what that means.

And with Grizzlies, a lot of it's like logging or just people building roads and highways through their habitat. That's more habitat fragmentation. or in a lot of ways it'll be a lot of times it's going to be like agriculture like people either there's animal agriculture or they're growing crops that gets rid of habitat or sometimes it'll be like palm oil plantations and other parts of the world and stuff so there's a lot of different ways we can lose habitat climate change is another way but there's yeah there's a lot of different factors that go into so do you boycott log rides at theme parks I don't I'm not anti-logging I'm just anti

kind of irresponsible logging. Actually, I think that's your favorite ride at Disney. I do. I love Splash Mountain. You don't feel like a hypocrite at all. No, I'm not anti-logging. I'm just anti-yourresponsible logging. So, yeah. Or the lumberjack games, when they do the log roll,

they run on the logs. I'm not anti-logging. You like that. Yeah, don't you like that? No, I want to save the bears. That's my first and foremost concern. You know, logging used to be a big issue, and anymore, a lot of these logging companies

are doing a better job. of kind of forest management and stuff. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So our final one, we've done this before, but I think we should get back to it. Do we like this animal? One of my all-time favorite animals, if not my all-time favorite animal.

So I love them. Yeah. I forget where I had it ranked. Pretty high. Oh, man. I want to say it's like number three for me. Mike? That hasn't changed?

It might have. I don't remember. I think I had it number one the first guy. Oh, so you're saying it's three right now. One of our questions was like someone, I think it was EMV, wanted us to make a list of our definitive, like our definitive list of our top 100 animals. You should do that. Which I think is a good idea. I'd be fun.

I like grizzly bears. I'll keep it short for me. Okay. Okay. Like them. All right. Well, that's pretty much it for this grizzly story. Like we mentioned, you're going to hear more grizzly stories.

We're just going to kind of work them. work them in here and there. Next week, though, we'll be back with a mini episode. And then after that, another new animal. So you guys got that to look forward to. Great. Yeah. All right.

All right. Thanks for listening, guys. We'll see it. You're welcome.