Tooth & Claw: True Stories of Animal Attacks - Rattlesnake Attack - Latest Animal Attack News and Clara Jessup's Run-in with a Rattlesnake

Episode Date: June 6, 2022

We start things off by getting into some of the more notable animal attack news stories from the past couple of months, and then have a really fascinating interview with Clara Jessup, who was bit by a venomous rattlesnake and had a really difficult time getting treated properly. ~~ To advertise on the show, contact us! ~~ Tooth & Claw is brought to you by QCODE. Support the show and get access to an extensive library of exclusive episodes like this by supporting the show on Patreon or joining the Grizzly Club on Apple Podcasts. For the latest updates on the show and all things wildlife, follow us at toothandclawpod.com and social:  Instagram: @ToothandClawPodcast Twitter: @ToothandClawPod Wes: @GrizKid Jeff: @jefe_larson Mike: @mikey3ds                          Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey everyone, welcome back to tooth and claw. On today's episode, we've actually kind of got a lot going on. So we're going to start with our regular monthly animal attack news roundup, where we take some of the more notable animal encounter and attack headlines and news stories from the past couple of months and discuss them a little bit. And then afterwards, we have this really fascinating interview, actually, with a listener of the show. Her name is Clara Jessup, and she had a really interesting encounter with a venomous snake. And she goes over the details of not just the attack, but all the craziness that follows an attack that we just thought would be a really interesting insight into, you know, start to finish what some of these attacks can look like.

And we learned a lot and we just thought it would be really, really cool to share with all of you her experience. So without any further ado, let's get to some animal attacks. We hope you enjoy it. Hey, everyone. Hey, Wes. Hey, Wes. Hey, how's it going, guys? Never better.

Dang. Good. Never better? Never. Never better. Never once? Nope. I had a good week working in Yellowstone.

Yeah? Why? Just lots of stuff. Something I'm going to talk about a little later, too. That wasn't necessarily good, but... You're the king of teasers, you know? Oh, I love teasing. I love teasing away.

Can you just tell us now? No, well, it's going to be one of my news stories. But I'm ready. Well, I'm not. Okay. Fine. We got a special news episode today. It's special because...

because we've got our typical news stories, but much more truncated. We're just doing like one or two each. I have a couple headlines, actually. So I've got like a few more, but it's going to be quicker than normal because we have a listener who was in a pretty serious animal encounter who reached out to us, wanted to tell us their story. We talked to her. It's a crazy story.

And we actually invited her on to tell it. And it's interesting. It's a really cool story to us because some of the information. from the podcast actually helped her to make some pretty critical decisions in her whole recovery process. And it feels nice to help people, I think just in general. Don't you guys agree with that? It's nice to help people sometimes? In general?

No. No? I don't like helping people. Actually, there was one time I helped someone just with like some yard work. And then they gave me money afterwards. So that case, I was pretty happy about it. Okay. I don't know if that counts as much.

That's not altruistic behavior. Which we talked about recently. All right, back to the episode. Yeah, let's do some news stories. What do you guys think? Sure. Are you guys ready? Yeah.

Mike, are you ready? Yeah, let's go. All right. Who wants to start? I want to start. Can I start? All right. I got a good one.

I've got a whale of a story, you could say. Ooh, okay. Back on May 14th of this year, that being the year of 2022. Right. May 4th? No, 14th. Yeah, so it's not Star Wars Day.

May the 14th be with you. Not quite the same. Close. Okay. So this happened down in the port town of Topolo Bampo in Mexico. And you guys, I wanted to, I thought this would be a cool place to start because you guys were recently down in Mexico whale watching. We were.

So there's a small whale watching vessel out on the water with four passengers when all the sudden a juvenile humpback whale launched itself out of of the water and just completely body slammed the boat. Took it out entirely. And there's actually footage of it. I'll share the link with everyone, but it's really crazy because it looks like if the whale had planned, it couldn't have done it better than it did to just basically capsize this boat.

Maybe it did. And that's the question because there's some speculation whether these passengers, these whale watchers were harassing the whale. Whatever the case was, though, they were way too close to this whale. And you're not allowed to get that. Like after the whale landed on the boat, they were definitely too close. A little too close. There's rules for approaching whales that are like marine mammals rules that are pretty much international.

And you're not allowed to approach within a certain distance. You can approach and then stop your boat. And if the whale decides to approach you, that's allowed. But you can't approach the whale further than I think it's like 100 yards or something. I can't remember. But yeah. The aftermath of this encounter, I guess we think. call it, this body slamming. One of the women had a broken leg and like severe traumatic injuries

to her head. Jeez. One of the men also had some serious injuries to the head and broken ribs. And according to one of the onlookers, they said this boat was just basically totaled. And they saw just bent metal everywhere and blood all over the passenger seating. And they're not sure if this is from the humans or from the whale. But in any case, this is turning into a whole thing because not only could this turn into like these people were harassing and ultimately injured a whale, but they were also out on the water without, I want to get this term right. They didn't have the mandatory navigation license plate, and none of them were wearing life preservers either.

So they're facing some pretty hefty fines as well as having gotten bodies slanted by a whale. So pretty terrible day. And I just want to, I want to wrap this up with a quote from a guy. His name is Gerardo Vargas. He's the mayor of Ahomei. I think is how you say it. Please do not get too close to the whales. We can enjoy their beauty, but at a distance.

Great quote. I just can't imagine what that would be like to see right off the deck of your ship, a giant whale launch out and it clicks in your brain that it's about to land on you. Yeah. Pretty wild. You'd be like, oh, whale. That's probably what you would be like. All right.

Okay, well, I'll go next. I'm going to do just a couple really quick, short things that happened. one that was really tragic. Staff Sergeant Seth Michael Plant, who's 30 years old, was killed by a bear mauling in Anchorage, Alaska. There's very little details about this one, but I did think it's one that we should bring up because people being killed by bears doesn't happen that often. It's likely that him and some other people on the army base were out training. It's a huge army base that covers hundreds of acres, and there's often bears on the property. And apparently they think it was a grizzly bear, and that him and his friends got too close to the den. and the bear came out and mauled him to death. And one of the other guys was injured. It's still being investigated. So that was my really quick bear story. Jeff, do you have a new story you want to do?

And then I'll go into my other ones afterwards. Can I ask you a question about that, actually, Wes? Yeah. So when someone gets mauled to death by a bear, what is kind of the average amount of time it takes for the person to die? It really depends on the type of mauling. Like this one sounds, I mean, it's still under investigation. but it sounds like it was a female defending cubs or potentially even a den site.

And in that case, it's going to be a really aggressive, really intense threat neutralizing kind of attack where it was probably a really quick way to die because the bear just comes out guns blazing, you know, hits him with everything. The bear had guns? No. And that's typically like the ones that happen really fast and can lead to a really quick outcome. And I doubt that this attack lasted more than like a few seconds, but probably just like ripped a femoral artery or tore his throat open or something, you know, smashed a skull. There's a lot of things that could happen.

If it's like a predatory attack, they can take a really long time. You think of Cynthia Dussel Bacon's story where the black bear like sat on her and ate her arms off, you know? I don't like that. And that could have lasted hours and hours. I wouldn't like that to happen to me. So it really depends on the type of attack. But these territorial like grizzly attacks where it's defensive. fending cubs or a surprise encounter or whatever tend to be really quick but really really devastating

that's why i'm always saying we should allow grizzly bears and black bears to enlist in the military get them on our side right to bear arms yeah yeah and then mike like you were saying we could have bears with guns and how would that would be so scary that's what we need we need a more intense military presence here. All right, Jeff, you want to go? Yeah. On April 11th,

a man in Uganda fought and killed a male lion with his bare hands. No. Okay. That came into his house. How does that sound to you, Wes?

It sounds pretty unbelievable, but I'm not going to totally discount it. After saying that 5,000 dogs had been killed by monkeys in India, I started looking into these things a little bit closer. And I was like, that doesn't seem very possible for this guy to just kill, like, and I saw

pictures of the lion, and it's a big male lion. Okay. Did he have a bear named Hans, maybe? Kill them with his bear hands. Like his bear hands killed the lions. Hans. Hans, it's German. I didn't look into that.

So, that makes more sense. And there's a picture of him after this lion attack. attacked him and the area he was in looked like impoverished we'll say yeah but he just has like a cardboard arm and like two eye patches and then just like all these random bandages but then he was like you could see like open slash wounds still and like he's bleeding on the ground wait rewind a what the heck he's got a cardboard arm and two eye patches like a splint or like after being attacked by the lion, this is how they patched him up. With cardboard and two eye patches.

Yeah. Interesting. Like both eye patches on his eyes, I am assuming. Yeah, but like one of them's like kind of hanging off so you can see out of his eye but like halfway. Interesting. Yeah, it was interesting. So what did you slew out?

So would you determine? So then I saw an article that said that the lion like went into his house and started attacking him and he found a weapon and like hit it as hard as he. could in the head and it instantly died. And I was like, okay, that's a little more believable, but still not a lot of detail and like a broad sort. It seems kind of hard to kill a lion with one hit. Yeah.

So then. I want to know what the weapon is. I found a video that said, man in Uganda kills lion with bare hands, fake. So I was like, well, let's listen to this, you know? Yeah. Because like, if you search it, Lion, man in Uganda. the first 20 articles are him killing it with his bare hands. Okay.

So then I listened to it and apparently that didn't happen at all. This lion came into the village and like really injured three different people. And then the police were called and the military came. And they went out looking for the lion and they just wanted to like capture it and relocate it. But then like all these like people that lived in the town were angry about their fellow. people having been attacked so they all had machetes and like different weapons and were going

out to like find the lion to try to kill it and like the group kept getting bigger and bigger so then the military decided that they were just going to kill it because if they didn't these other like the people weren't listening to them and they were going to get attacked so then they went and found it and this guy in the military

shot at it and it didn't say whether he hit it or not, but the lion went and mauled him after he shot it and got him pretty good. And then his other military person came and shot it and saved him and killed the lion. And he's the guy. Yeah, and sorry, there was one name that they used for like everyone. So that was the name of the person. And then they wanted to like preserve the lion carcass, but the whole village just took it from them and ate the lion.

So it should be. able to keep the head. The headline should be man plus entire military managed to kill Lion. Yeah. With help of an entire village as well. But if you want to look up the picture, you can tell this guy got pretty messed up. Yeah, he is, that is a cardboard arm, isn't it? Yeah.

How is my description? Yeah. The eye patches, I would say those are more bandages than eyepatches, right? Yeah, that's fair. But they are over his eye in their patches. Yeah, sure. I was picturing like two pirate eye patches. Yeah, that's what I was thinking.

Interesting. That would have been fun. More so than just like, he did get pretty messed up. And I do think like maybe there's a possibility the lion went into his house and he was able to like at least fight it out of his house, which is still like pretty. He doesn't look like if someone were to have killed a lion with their bare hands, that's not the person I would picture. Who would you picture? Like Dwayne Johnson. The Rock.

See, I was thinking like 90s Schwarzenegger. Yeah, someone like that. Well, that was some good internet investigation. You got to the bottom of that. Good job, Jeff. Way to really dig. Yeah. And then I just have a couple of headlines, but I can do those next round.

Okay. This summer, serve up the cookout classics. Craft mayo and dressing. Toss green salads with delicious ranch dressing or zesty Italian. Serve smooth, craveably creamy potato salads with mayo. We all know it's not a... cookout without craft. So I'm going to do a little coyotes be whiling, if that's okay.

Oh, you stole it. You can steal it. I'll come up with anyone. I didn't know if it was Jeff exclusive or not. You didn't copyrights or anything, Jeff? I am going to do a little coyotes be whiland that is a category, Jeff started a while ago. Are they still wildin?

They're whioling. They're whioling a lot these days. Constantly. There's multiple coyote incidents that happened, and some of them were pretty serious and actually got a lot of news coverage and we had them sent to us. A toddler was attacked by a coyote in a Huntington Beach on April 29th. There's a video of this attack. No way at Huntington Beach. It's pretty common to have coyotes on that beach. They're eating like food that people left behind trash. Yeah. What the heck? Surfing. In this video, there's like a surf camera that's set up to

monitor their surf conditions and you see this little family in like the woman and I think another child and another woman are all standing down by the surf and their toddlers. And their toddler sitting behind them on the sand and a coyote walks up to this toddler knocks it over proceeds to bite its face wrestle with it there's about a 15 second struggle and then the kid managed to free itself from the coyote and it like walks down to these other adults and at the very in the video you see like what I think is the mom turn around and see her kid and like you don't really see her face or anything but you have to imagine she's like wait what what just happened Yeah.

Coyote runs off. They did close down the beach. The cops went out there. They killed two coyotes. And they do know that they got the coyote that was responsible for this attack. Neither those coyotes tested positive for rabies. Yeah. But they could take the DNA off the girl.

They could take the DNA off the coyote. They got the right coyote. What about the other one? That was just unfortunate coyote that happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. The girl had serious but not life-threatening injury. and in a very similar incident, so that happened on April 29th, on May 3rd, the day before May 4th, Jeff,

there was another toddler, another two-year-old toddler sitting on his porch in a suburb of Dallas, Texas, when a second coyote ran up to him and attacked him, another coyote, obviously not the same coyote as the California attack. This was 8.30 in the morning, it rushed up to him, it attacked him. A nearby eyewitness said that little boy was sitting, on his front porch, and the animal came right up to the porch, unfazed, and attacked him.

It showed no fear, and then it kind of hung out in the area when all the EMTs and everything showed up. But Dallas Animal Services does say that residents in the neighborhood had been feeding that coyote and even petting it. It was shot. It escaped into some nearby woods and wasn't recovered. The boy's wounds had already been cleaned by the parents so they couldn't test for rabies, but apparently they're not worried about rabies anymore.

All the articles I read said that he was in critical condition following the attack, but from what I could gather, it does seem that he's making a full recovery. Really quickly on both of these, oh, and I did forget a quote from the California one. This is a really good quote from an eyewitness. There was like a coyote right around here. We saw it, and then all of a sudden it went in like this family. And then there was like a kid on the ground, and then like five minutes later, we walked back, whole crowd around a baby.

baby have evidently got like bit and there was just blood all over its face. Very California. A couple things I just want to bring up really quickly. We've talked about one of the only recorded fatalities from a coyote attack that folk singer in Nova Scotia. The other one was a little girl in Southern California. There's only two recorded fatalities from coyotes in North America. And there are literally millions of coyotes in North America. We don't know how many there are.

I was trying to figure that out. And the state of Kansas alone has over 300,000 coyotes. Wow. So there are so many coyotes. They are so good at living on the fringes of human society and around us. And they hardly ever attack people. California has like around 10 coyote attacks a year. And they're almost always just little bites that people get from feeding them.

When they are food condition, they are more likely to be bold around people, to come up to people and try and get food. So if you feed a coyote, there's a good chance you're teaching it behavior that could really hurt someone else or lead to someone else even being killed. So don't ever feed them. It's teaching a coyote that humans are a source of food, not something to be feared.

But I just love coyotes. I think they're such a cool animal. I think, you know, good for them for figuring out a way to live on our fringes. We've messed things up so drastically for so many animals. And this is one animal that's really figured out how to do it and how to be okay around us. And I just think like if you live in an area where you've been seeing coyotes or you know there's coyotes around, it's up to you just to take those extra precautions to make sure one isn't going to come grab your kid or something because they're a predator and they're opportunistic.

And if they see the opening, they might take it. So you just got to be careful. You know what I learned from that? Coyotes are here to stay. What? Coyotes be wilding. They be wilding. Yeah. We could go on and on about coyotes. But I just, I think they're amazing little predators. All of these articles were like vicious coyote attack. Vicious, it's not. It's a coyote displaying natural behavior and attacking an animal that's much smaller than it and pretty defenseless. I think there's a word for that.

Predation. No, it's Wyland. Yeah, Wylan. All right. I'm done with that one. Do you guys have any more? Yeah, I'll do some headlines. Okay.

So Lady Gaga. Or wait. So far you got my interest, Pete. Yeah, I'll just say it like that. Lady Gaga. So a man accused of shooting Singer's dog walker released from jail by mistake. So someone shot Lady Gaga's dog walker and then they just let him out of jail. And then the jail was like, wait, sorry, come back.

This one doesn't have an animal, but I want to read it because. I thought was really funny. It happened in Virginia. Manhands officers meth instead of registration at traffic stop. That is a pretty good one. Interesting Zag for our podcast. Yeah. A little outside the purview.

Yeah. Yeah. You never know. No, I'm glad you. I'm happy. You, yeah. And then the DC Zoo. You guys know what happened at the DC Zoo?

Nope. A Fox went in. snuck on into the zoo and killed 25 of their flamingos and one duck. Holy cow. Which brings up the question, how many flamingos can one fox eat? At least 20, or it probably didn't eat them all. It probably just killed them. I know.

Why is he just killing them? How many could it eat? That happens sometimes, especially with dogs. Dog species, wolves, foxes, coyotes. Sometimes they, it's called surplus killing. They kill as much as they can, and the thought is they know they could come back and eat that later if they want. And so they just figure might as well kill it now so I can get it later because when the

killin's good, the killin's good. Apparently it was like May 2nd and the zookeepers were just like doing their morning walk and got to the flamingos and there's just a fox and they're murdering everything. Yeah. And then they ended up catching it and euthanizing the fox. I think it was Ted Bundy that originally said that, right? Sounds like something he would coin, yeah. When the killin's good, the killin's good.

And that's it for foxes be sneaking. Thanks, Jeff. Mike, did you have more? Should I get into mine? No, go for you. You're good to go. All right. So I had some kind of news happened to me this week.

So as you guys know, I work in Yellowstone National Park. I'm on the bear management team. That job involves a lot of different things. It can be anything from just going to bear jams where there's tons of people parked on the side of the road watching a bear and doing some education and making sure that traffic can still move. move and everything. It can be collecting carcasses by the side of the road that present an attraction for a bear, but it's a spot that's not safe for them to eat a carcass. It's a lot of stuff. It could be trapping bears and collaring bears. It can be investigating bear mallings. It's pretty much anything bear related or wildlife related in the park is part of my job. But the things that we take the most

seriously are any bear conflict. And because we've done such a good job with bear management in Yellowstone, we have really very few bear conflict. But this week we did have one. And what happened was we have a sub-adult grizzly who's been spending a lot of time in these thermal areas that are some of the first areas to thaw in the spring. They present some of the first really good feeding opportunities for bears, some of the first grasses, some earthworms, grubs, roots, lots of different stuff they can get at. And this bear's just been there for weeks in these areas. She's been really visible. We've been pretty tolerant of letting her get somewhat close to the road so that she can eat in these spots.

that are really the only food right now. But recently, especially after we would be done for the day, she was getting really close to the road at night. And that's concerning because we have so many visitors, you never know what might happen. And I actually drove through one night when I was off duty and I saw her like five feet from the road surrounded by cars. And I yelled at people to back up,

but when you're not in the Ranger uniform, they don't really take you that seriously. Anyway, the next night, apparently the exact same thing happened. I'm Griskeed. No, I didn't. By the power of Gris Kid, I command you to back up. I didn't say that. I should have, though.

They would have taken me a lot more seriously. The next night, I wasn't there, but apparently the exact same thing happened. And multiple witnesses, including some really credible ones that we know in the park, saw someone toss bread out of their window to the spare. Unfortunately, no one got a license plate. It was a white truck that had a family in it. And if anyone out there did happen to be at this bear jam and has photos to this license plate, Please send them to me.

And I'll tell you why. Know anyone with a white truck. Send it to west. A family with a white truck. They fed this bear. And you may think that that's like a pretty small kind of infraction. We all know that we shouldn't feed bears, but that may not seem like a big deal. But it's actually a huge deal.

And the reason why is because this bear was already habituated, which is kind of a gray area for National Park bears. It's kind of almost a necessary evil because there's so many visitors. But it wasn't food condition. and now it is. Now, instead of just seeing trucks and cars and people is kind of like an annoyance, it sees them as a possible food source. And it may start then approaching cars thinking, oh, when I approach these things, food comes out of them. And that leads to behavior like breaking open cars or getting into campsites. And then that leads to behavior like potentially attacking people. And that's a big liability for the park. It's a huge liability for this bear. And it's really,

really unfortunate because this bear did nothing wrong. It was just displaying natural behavior, eating grass on the side of the road when someone threw it some food, probably the best food it's ever had in its life. So now my job is to go out there and this bear that previously had a pretty worry-free life as far as grizzly bears go. And I have to haze it every single time I see it that it's within 100 yards of the road. I was out there the other day and she was like 250 yards from the road, which is fine. Like, I didn't have to do anything at that distance, and she's grazing, and then this huge male bear lumberes in, and she takes off running, and he pushed her closer to the road, and then I had to haze her. And so it's kind of like, she just can't catch a break,

and it sucks. And I feel really bad for her, and I really actually love this bear because I've been seeing her for weeks now. But I wanted to bring up this story just because you may think that feeding any animal, any animal out there, whether it's like a raise, a chipmunk, a coyote, a bear. You may think that you're doing something harmless, but you've just given that animal an association with people that's very different from the association it should have, which is people are to be avoided.

Because we're not good for animals. We prove that. Unless you're talking about domestic animals, I think you could say a duck is probably somewhat in that category. But like, outside of that, we're not good for them. And encounters with us ultimately leads to them dying. And if you're feeding them, you're giving them the wrong lesson. So don't feed animals.

It's a bad idea. It's a human safety issue. It's an animal safety issue. But this is a little case study of that. And I want you guys to know how serious it is. So really, really, really, if I can just plead with you, just don't do it. Hey, I just wanted to interrupt myself really quick for an update on this Yellowstone Bear story. So when we recorded this, we had just finished hazing that bear.

It was ongoing. And a couple days after we recorded, that bear was actually killed by another grizzly bear. So its mom was actually mating with the big male and the two stumbled across this subadult. And the mom kind of pounced on it, I think, to shoe it off. And then the big male came in and killed it. And unfortunately, that's just part of life out here for a grizzly bear, especially a younger grizzly bear. If you come across a bear that's a lot bigger than you, you need to get away from it. And if you don't, there's a chance it might kill you.

And in this circumstance, that's what happened. That's partly just because we have a lot of bears here in Yellowstone now. We're at carrying capacity. So they're bound to kind of weed each other out a little. But yeah, it's kind of a bummer. I really liked that bear. I saw it almost every day. I was working with it pretty closely to try and teach it not to be food conditioned.

But nature kind of resolved that problem for us. And it's unfortunate that that bear's not around anymore, but it's also a really amazing thing that a lot of people got to witness. Some people got photos and videos of it. It's not every day that you come to Yellowstone and see two grizzlies kill another grizzly. So pretty amazing thing for some people to see. Pretty sad thing for me and for that bear. But yeah, it's all part of the circle of life here in Yellowstone. Oh yeah. And one other thing I wanted to say. I repeatedly said that that bear was female while we were saying the story. But after it was killed, we were able to inspect the bear and learn that it was actually a male.

So it was a male bear that was killed just so you know. All right, back to the episode. You said this place was steps from the water. We just haven't found the steps yet. How much did we save? Enough. Enough to get lost. Or you could book a stay with Hilton.

Welcome to your oceanfront room. Just steps from the water. The Hilton sale is on now. Book on Hilton.com or the Hilton app. up to 20% to get the stay you expected. When you want savings, not surprises. It matters where you stay. Hilton, for the stay. I don't want to take up too much time because we actually have, for you guys, a really special treat that we teased at the beginning of the episode, which is a really cool guest, our friend Clara, who's now a friend of the podcast. She's got an amazing story

for you guys about a rattlesnake bite. So I think, are you guys ready? Should we bring her on? Yeah, let's talk to Claire. Perfect timing. You didn't. do that? No, how'd you do that? It was amazing. Hey, Clara. Hey, guys. Hey, how's it going? Good. How are you guys doing? Good. That was crazy. West just finished doing an intro for you, like the exact second that you came on. And we were all like, wait, did someone text it? Does that's perfect time? Yeah. Hey, how you doing? Are you feeling okay?

Yeah, pretty good. Not a lot has changed with my foot in the last week or so. But yeah. Okay. Everyone's probably in suspense to even know what happened. We haven't really said anything yet. I should say beforehand that me and Claire, I've already talked for a while. You told me the whole story, but I just wanted you to tell it to everyone else. Quickly, let's have you introduce yourself and say a little bit about what you do for work or what you were doing for work before this incident. And then we can get into the story. Sure. Yeah. So primarily I'm doing wildlife technician work right now. So I was most recently working in Arizona and New Mexico with the Mexican Wolf Recovery program there. So I was there for six months working with wolves. And then I was leaving that job to go to Yosemite for the summer to work with the bear team.

So it's on my way to Yosemite when I ended up having this interaction with a snake. Cool. We'll just get right into it. So I decided to stop through Joshua Tree. And I've never been there before. but it's kind of like any park and there's a main road through it and it's pretty busy. And I was just looking for anywhere to go explore the desert by myself. So I found this little place to pull out just off the main road.

I don't know if you guys are familiar with Joshua Tree. I haven't been there. Have you with? Just like right by it. I've been to like Palm Springs, but I've never really been in Joshua Tree. Mike, you haven't either? No. I'd like to, though.

No, we're not. Yeah, it's really beautiful. Yeah. Yeah, it looks at all of snakes. Well, so anyway, so the place I pulled out was, it's called Oister Bar, and it leads out to a climbing area. And so no one was out there. And so I just kind of wandered out on that trail and was exploring the area. And I was just hanging out on a boulder for a little bit.

And then I decided to head back to my car. So I jumped down from the boulder and just immediately felt this sharp pain. But it was super quick, nothing crazy. I was like, okay, I guess I must have miscalculated and not seen a californ. cactus and just assumed I'd hit my foot on a cactus. Before that, had snakes been on your mind at all? Like, were you considering that you might run into a snake? Were the conditions kind of right for them? Did you think that it was a possibility? Yeah, I definitely was thinking about snakes. And I was definitely like in areas where they could potentially be. And I was like, hmm, I shouldn't be in this little

nook and cranny. And I did leave that area after that. So I was in a pretty open area after that. But I was definitely aware of them. And it's kind of the time of year where they're starting to come out. Is right as you put your foot down, you felt it? Yeah. It was like immediately when I landed. Something happened. How far away from your car were you at this point? Was it a pretty good hike away? It wasn't a terrible hike. I guess that it was like a mile. And then later I measured it and it was closer to half a mile from my car. Okay. So the snake just bit you. You weren't totally sure what it was. thought maybe it was a cactus. Yeah, I looked down and I just saw this rock next to my foot.

And then I leaned a little further down and I just saw this snake staring back at me. And so it was like right next to me, right? And I was like, immediately was like, oh, I was bit by the snake. And that was all within seconds of jumping down from this folder. Did you like jump backwards when you saw the snake? I didn't jump backwards. I just sort of like, oh, shit, I got to get out of here. It immediately started to leave.

The last time I saw a rattlesnake, I couldn't tell if it was a rattlesnake because it's kind of dark. So I started getting closer to it. And then it rattled and I jumped back so far. I could have set an Olympic record for that jump. It didn't ever rattle. Even when I was staring straight at it, it was just sort of like flicking its tongue. And I was like, oh, okay. That was something I wanted to bring up really quick for our listeners is that I think people have this kind of false sense of

security with rattlesnakes that they're always going to rattle and they're going to get this warning before they strike. And that's the case if you like come upon a rattlesnake and it's worried about you and it's trying to warn you and get you to leave. But I think in your circumstance where you just hop down right next to it, it had to make that split decision and just strike. You were suddenly right there so it just bit. It didn't have time to rattle or anything. So I just do think it's important that people understand that that they don't always rattle, that every once small people do get bit without ever having any kind of warning. And I think, I mean, the snake was just really startled.

I didn't know I was there. I think it was somewhat innocent. Totally. Totally innocent. Probably regretted using a lot of venom. You feel bad for how much venom it used on me? It's pretty most polite attack thing we've had on the show. Sort of.

I don't know. Snakes are cool. I thought, yeah. I wonder about the snake now and where it is. Yeah. But basically I saw that it was brown and had a triangular head. I think it had some yellow markings on its face. But it was enough that I was like, this is a rattlesnake and I need to leave.

I started heading back to my car pretty immediately. And there's no service in the park where I was at least. So I was alone didn't have service. And no one knew I was out there. It's not like people were going to come looking for me or anything. My friends knew I was in Joshua Tree, but they're like, if we don't hear from me in four days, we'll start to get worried or whatever. So I was like, okay, I got to get back and I got to get help. And the pain and swelling were really

quick to come on. Time is kind of warped from getting bit to getting help. But I think in that first minute or so, it was pretty bad. And then within a few minutes, it was really difficult to walk at all. So even though I wasn't super far from my car, I really was worried that I wasn't going to be able to get there. And I also knew that no one had come out on the trail. But I walked for a few minutes. And then I sat down in so much pain and it was just swelling so quickly. And I forced myself to get back up and I could see cars driving back and forth in the distance. So I was like, okay, like if someone decides to stop or rolls down their window, like, maybe they could hear me if I was screaming. So that's when I started screaming for help, which is pretty weird to think about.

I don't know, like, when do you ever like scream? It's an odd thing to recall, I guess. It felt pretty desperate. That is. It's super scary. I was ever screamed. I was just about to ask you guys. I mean,

not like that because this is kind of like the fear of death is put in you. I've never had to experience that. I can't think of it. I don't think I've ever screamed at the top of my lungs for help or because I was like scared or anything. Like I just, I've never, yeah,

I don't think I've ever done it. What about in your, your Lincoln Park cover band in high school? Or when I stole your CDs. Oh, yeah. And lost them all. Yeah.

That's crazy. Because you could see people for help, but it seems like it would be pretty hard for them to hear you. So you just had to, but you just didn't know else to do type of thing. Like maybe someone will hear me. Yeah, I think at that point I was genuinely worried that I wouldn't be able to continue walking. Foot just hurt so bad that you just didn't know if you could walk. Yeah, and it was really swollen at this point. I remember looking down and I was wearing bedrock.

So it's like basically looks like a flip-flop with. you know, a back strap. And I hadn't taken my foot partially out. And I had looked down and I was like, oh, shit, like my foot's going to get stuck in my shoe. I got to take my heel out, you know. So it was so was your foot exposed? You didn't have like snake went straight in the skin. Yeah, definitely like preventative footwear helps. Yeah, we'll talk about that a little bit. But yeah. So something that I wanted to bring up really quick before you keep going to is just that, and you knew this going into your whole adventure, but a lot of rattlesnake bites can be dry where people get bit and they don't have any kind of envenation and you just walk away from it. It's just a snake kind of telling you,

hey, I'm a rattlesnake, but it decides not to inject venom for whatever reason. But you instantly knew that yours wasn't that because within a minute your leg is starting to really hurt and get swollen. It felt really desperate. I genuinely was like, I don't know if I can get back to my car. And I was running really quickly through scenarios, right? Like, okay, am I just going to lie down on this path with cars driving by and like my organs are like shutting down? There's so much adrenaline. And I was like, I just need to get help. So force myself to get back up and then would start screaming for help. And then I'd like sit back down after a minute or so or taking a few steps even. And then would talk to myself out loud doing like, okay, you got to keep going.

the only way to get help is if you like keep going and then I'd force myself back up and then like start screaming again. So I think it was just like this very desperate attempt in a lot of ways. And I do think people are a lot more capable than they realize, especially in like survival situation. So like I probably could have gone a lot farther if I really had to. But it was like a genuine fear. Like I don't know if I can get back to my vehicle. And you knew that there wasn't anything that you could really do to the bite itself, right? Like you were aware that you couldn't cut it open and suck out venom or do a tourniquet or any of that stuff, right? You had all that knowledge already.

Yeah, I have a Wilderness First Responder Certification. So some like basic knowledge of, I mean, basically all they teach you is like there's nothing you can do in the field except calmly leave. Plus you listen to the podcast. Yeah. No, I did. That did help. And but yeah, it sort of felt ridiculous. Like I've like gone back and read like, you know, how to handle a snake bite in the wilderness.

And it's like calmly sit down and then like circle the bite wherever you are bit and mark the time and like slowly to get help and remain calm. And it was sort of like, I don't know. It all goes out the window if you're like having to self rescue. Yeah. I actually, I wanted to ask about that. Because obviously you had some preconceived notions of what a bite might result in. but what was different about the actual experience compared to like what you were expecting or what you kind of thought about it beforehand? Was it worse or better in ways?

I think it was probably worse because I just, I understand that most bites really aren't that horrible and that, you know, you can see swelling and pain, mild pain starts happening and it can even like happen an hour later or it can be delayed. So I think I was just like surprised that it was so bad because it's like I've been pretty severely injured in the past and I just like never experienced pain like this. I was like, this is insane. I'm like on the trail, like sitting on the trail and then forcing myself back up and then walking and then sitting down. And at this point, I'm closer enough to the road that I was like, people can definitely see me at this point. So I was like flailing my arms around just like trying to get someone's attention. So I see this car like slow down, checking me out slowly

deciding what to do. And I desperately waved for them to come towards me. So they pulled into the parking lot. And at that point, that's when I got to the parking lot too. So I just immediately sat down and they rolled down their window. And I was like, I was bit by a snake. I need help. And so one of them stayed with me and then the other person drove off to find Rangers. Wow. And it was at that point, like when I just was able to like sit and I was just waiting for help, my whole life felt like it was on fire. And then my foot itself felt like it was like going to explode. Like any moment it was going to like rip at the seams. The seams like my skin was just going to like rip open.

And it was just like this insane pain from venom. I don't really know how better to describe it besides that it was like on fire and going to explode. No, that's pretty. That's a vivid picture. Yeah. I think we understand. That's awful. That really is horrifying.

Yeah. It was kind of this weird scenario right. Like I'm sitting on the ground crying and then like swearing profusely. and then I'm like, oh, I'm with this person and, like, was trying to make small talk with them. There's just, like, a very odd situation. It was taking a while. So, like, she was feeling anxious, too. And she's like, is there anything I could do?

And it's like, there's nothing that could be done. And I did have ice in my car. And I did have her grab the ice and I put eyes on my foot, which is, like, you should never do that. You guys mentioned that in your previous episode, I think not to do that. And then it's also something I learned previously. but I didn't recall that. And honestly, like, it did provide some form of relief. But, yeah, learning later about it, right?

It just constricts your blood vessels and it causes tissue damage. So it was a short enough time period that I don't think it did anything to cause permanent damage. But at that point, it's like, I would have gladly put my leg in a freezer. Like, I was like, please do something. Yeah. Yeah, I was just sitting there waiting. And then eventually the other person came back. And then a couple minutes later.

some here camp hosts showed up. So they didn't really have much training, you know, and knowledge. They actually like did offer me a snake bite kick to suck out the venom. And I was like, no, we can't do that. Also while I was waiting, someone did offer me a tourniquet as well. So it's like all well meaning, right? And I was just like, no, you should never do these things. But it's definitely like people definitely think those things.

Right. I was glad I had like some understanding of what you should not be doing. Yeah. in our last episode that we did on rattlesnakes, really the two tools that are really helpful for you if you're bit by a rattlesnake or any venomous snake are your keys and your phone. Those are the two things you need because you just need to get anti-venom as quickly as possible, which you knew. Yeah.

And eventually, like when people were offering me stuff, I was like, look, I have like training in this. We shouldn't do these things. But yeah, I guess I was surprised that like people like really did think that's what you're supposed to do. Because ice, I feel like is understandable. like you want to ice something that's swollen. But I feel like a tourniquet, it's like you're cutting off all circulation to an extremity. You're going to like lose that part of your body if you do that.

So a few minutes after that, the head of emergency services showed up. And he has his EMT and stuff. And he was really knowledgeable and hopeful, I think just like a calming presence to have. And, you know, he took some vitals and whatnot. And essentially he was like, look, I just want you to know, like the ambulance is a few minutes away, but they're going to want you to take a helicopter out. And I was like, I don't know, like, that seems like over the top. I don't want to be dramatic about this. I was also like worried about the financial implications of that. And I repeated, there's like, yeah, I don't, I don't really want to do that. And he's like, well, you're not being dramatic. And I've seen a lot of different bites. And this is a really bad bite. And a lot of time has already passed. And this is about

the functionality of your leg at this point. And I think that was. was like really helpful to hear. I just needed someone to be direct with me in terms of like how severe the situation was. And I still like questioned it repeatedly, but it was definitely like firmly told to me that I like needed to take the helicopter. So the ambulance showed up. And so I like got an ambulance and was waiting for the helicopter. And they gave me a bunch of fentanyl in there while I was waiting. So that was like nice and provided. Yeah, yeah. Some form. of relief for a little bit. But it was, the pain was so bad that it was like a few minutes later. I was like, can I have more sort of thing? And they didn't want to give me more, I think, because they

wanted me to be aware enough while I was taking a helicopter or something. I'm not quite sure what the reasoning behind it was. But, you know, they're kind of giving me a hard time about wearing sandals and all this stuff. But they're really nice. And then the helicopter showed up and the paramedics took me to the helicopter. They had me. stick out my tongue and they're like, oh, you have ripples on your tongue, which is a clear sign of Pit Viper and Venomation. And I was like, I've never heard that. And I tried to research that and I like can't find anything about it. So I don't know. I didn't see my tongue. I didn't find anything either. But yeah, it's interesting. It's interesting. So I don't know. That dude just wanted

to see your tongue for some weird reason. Well, and he showed like he like, he like stuck out his tongue And I was like, see, my tongue looks like this. And then like, yeah, that's very strange. And it's like, yeah, we know I was bit like. Like my tongue looks like, yeah. Like look at my foot. Yeah, exactly. But I was not so high.

So it's like, oh, yeah, like you have a flat tongue. But yeah, they loaded me up into the helicopter. And then I was just like talking to them on the ride. They're kind of like worried about the financial implications. Then they were like, don't worry about it. and they like gave me more pain meds. And they kind of like propped my gurney up so I could look out the back window and it was like pretty chill just on a ton of pain meds.

Like, all right, this is happening. I 100% would be worried about the financial stuff too. I just think that's like part of being an American, especially like a younger American. I get what they're saying like don't worry about it. Your leg is more important than like a few hundred thousand dollars or whatever. But I 100% would be thinking the exact same thing. Like I don't want to have to pay. for all of this.

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plus $30 off your first online order. Ralph's fresh for everyone. So I got to the ER and then I like gone in contact with my family and friends. And it was still kind of like at that point in so much pain that I was just wriggling in pain, like wanting to be out of my body and totally just like uncontrollably crying and just surrendered to this pain because I was in the hospital. There's nothing I could do. And my foot like at that point was pretty gray and super swollen.

and they were starting to mark where the swelling was. Gross photo. Oh, was that yours? Just showed us a fertile, but it's very swollen. Kind of greenish gray. That's not how it looked before. I think, yeah, in terms of like discoloration, I think when I got to the hospital,

is when I noticed that. It could have been earlier, but. Just like imagine an elephant's foot, and that's what it pretty much was. That's exactly what it was. But so I got to the hospital around six. I was a bit around four. So it was a couple hours later. That night onwards is like, I don't really remember that much. I remember like being in severe pain, crying a ton. It was like a pretty ridiculous scenario. Like the person next to me started yelling at me to shut up because I was crying so loudly. Oh, come on. It took a lot of self control to be like not yell back at this person and like instigate a fight because I was like in so much pain. And I was like, I cannot stop crying. Yeah, yeah.

Pretty unreasonable. Yeah, it's not crying. You're in a hospital. Yeah, it's not a movie theater. So after that, I don't remember much of the night onwards. You know, they're starting to mark my leg up in terms of where it was swelling to. I think by like 8.30, it was halfway up my thigh at that point. And they started giving me anti-venom around 7 p.m.

and there's two types of anti-venom. There's crowfab, which is what most people are familiar with. And then there's anavip, which was recently approved in the U.S. a couple years ago. There's not a ton of differences, I don't think. There's a longer half-life with anavip. It doesn't have to be kept in a refrigerator, which is really good. And crowfab does. And then crowfab is derived from sheep plasma, and anavip is derived from horse plasma.

I was given anavip, and I'm mentioning that because in terms of dosing, it's like about a two to one ratio. 10 vials of anavip is about the equivalent of five crowfab files. But generally, like when you come in for a snake bite, they give you this like loading dose of crowfab or anavip. So you get a bunch all at once in order to maintain control, and then you start getting smaller maintenance doses based on your symptoms. So I was given 10 vials of anabip, and that's like a pretty standard loading dose. And then profab is like 4 to 6 is a loading dose. So I was given 10. And then I was still progressing.

So they gave me 10 more. And then in the morning, I got 10 more vials. So like I had. So you're 30 right now. Yeah. 30 vials. Yeah, which would be the equivalent then of 15 vials of what people are used to. So I think our other rattlesnake story,

The guy ended up with like 20 something vials, which we said was like a pretty insane amount of anti-venom. And you're already at 15 with your loading dose essentially. Wow. Right. So in the morning, I was transferred out of the ER. And this is kind of where things get like really messy in terms of care. And it's a little chaotic. So I'll try not to like go into crazy detail.

But essentially like I do think the ER did a good job from at least the clinical notes that I've read. it seems like they were addressing the symptoms with anti-benem and giving me more based on that. And then when I got transferred out, you know, I was assigned an attending physician. And none of the doctors that I had had ever handled a snake bite before, at least after I was transferred the ER. I'm not familiar with the experience that ER docs had. So they were not like super knowledgeable about what was happening. And there was just all these like small errors starting to build up.

And at that point, I was starting to be more conscious. aware of what was happening. And I just remember being really panicked in the morning because I was like, my leg has gone worse. Like the swelling is up past my hip at this point. My leg is like huge. My foot is gray. Any sort of touch to my leg, even up to my thigh, was like severe pain. So I was really nervous. I was like, this doesn't seem right. Like I don't know why I'm not improving. So I was trying to get someone to come see my leg. And, you know, I kept telling my nurse to like, get someone to come help me. And so she contacted ortho, but that wasn't like my attending position who was overseeing my care entirely. But the surgeon that came to look at me, like she was just

kind of evaluating if I needed surgery, like a fasciotomy, because I was like at risk for compartment syndrome. Her understanding was like, look at the leg. Does she need a fasciotomy? No. Job done. Right. And a fastiotomy is when they put big slashes in your skin and your flesh to like help relieve some of that pressure, right? Mm-hmm. And it's a pretty, it's like a pretty gnarly surgery. It's not one you want to have to have. Right. It's essentially like the only way to relieve pressure at that point.

And so it's like a huge pain relief, but it's really difficult to recover from. And I was like when I came in, they didn't let me like eat or drink because they were worried I'd potentially have to go into surgery. So at this point, I still was like not allowed to eat. or drink because of this potential risk of needing surgery. But she came in and was like, okay, we're going to keep monitoring your leg and foot, but like you don't need a surgery right now. And I was like, okay, but like I need help. But that wasn't really her job.

And then the vascular surgeon came in like 30 minutes later and was like, you need surgery right now. We need to debrief your foot and like put incisions in your leg. And I was like, what? This doesn't make any sense. And then they did more imaging on my leg. And then they were like, yeah, we're just going to monitor you for this. And I think during this time, I was just like, I think I just need more anti-venom.

I just know that's the only thing that actually addresses venom in your system. I had listened to your guys' podcasts previously, like that specific episode. And I did remember because that was such an extreme event with that previous story. Like I was like, I know there's not like, you can't go past a certain number. And I knew that was like really the only thing that could help. Right. And we're glad we could help out. Yeah.

Yeah. When you, did you tell them that you had heard that? It was actually in the ambulance that I like mentioned your guys' podcast. Because they were like, you were in sandals hiking around. And I was like, look. And I was like had just gotten fentanyl. And I was like, I don't know. I was just like babbling along and was like, I work with wolves and bears.

And I know how to be in the outdoors. And I listen to this podcast. And they were like, you know, probably rolling their eyes. That's great. though, like, I don't know, when we talked before, I just, I don't want to give ourselves a ton of credit, but I think it's great that the fact that you knew that you could get as much anti-venom as you needed, because truly that is like what you needed. You needed more anti-venom and you knew that because, you know, you'd heard that on the podcast and from your training and everything. So I am,

I am really tickled that that we helped a little bit with that. No, and I definitely think that as well. Like I did have at least a little bit of prior knowledge and it did help me out in that situation. So basically you're at the hospital and you're telling you doctor, listen, Grizz kid says I can't have too much anti-venom. You can't overdose. How do they react to you like telling them that you can't have too much anti-venom? So I guess I didn't quite say it like that. Essentially like by attending physician came in and I was like, I think I need more anti-venom.

And also keep in mind, it's like, I still have, like, a ton of narcotics in my system. So it's really hard to think straight. It's really hard to articulate myself. And I'm, like, really lucky that my parents had come. And, like, my mom can, like, sift through, like, a bunch of medical jargon. But I did have to, like, advocate really hard for myself. And my parents did as well, which sucks in a setting like that. But essentially, it was clear to me that the doctor was not familiar with my case.

She was arguing about with me about the amount of antitomats. anti-venom I had already gotten. She told me that I'd already had a ton and I was like, okay, that doesn't really mean anything to me. It's like I still need more. And then she told me that I had received anti-venom before getting to the hospital. And I was like, no, I didn't. And she's like, yes, you did. And it was like this back and forth. And I was like, this is insane. That's so weird. Like, it's like freaking out because I was like, this is an acute situation. Like it needs to be addressed now. And like, you're just clearly not familiar with what is going on and like the severity of this. So like, At best, she was uninformed and at worst she was being negligent and complacent in this situation.

And it just, there was no protocols being followed. Nothing was put in place and like no one knew what they were doing. One thing I wanted to bring up really quick too is that the alternatives they were offering you, like a fasciotomy or the other surgery, potentially had life altering recovery periods and effects. Like you were saying that your toes might be curled for the rest of your life or those fasciotomy scars maybe never fully recover and they're always painful for the rest of your life. So it's not like they were just like, hey, let's just give this some time and see what happens.

Right. Your leg was getting worse and worse and you either needed more antivenom or some other form of surgery that could have drastically altered your ability to function. Yeah. So it was a serious situation and I felt like no one was really addressing it correctly. And it was also clear to me they just like didn't understand what was going on. So that made me more panicked or I was like, well, you guys don't know what is happening. Please figure this out.

And I don't know. That doctor was super weird. Like she was like, well, I got you all these consultations. Like I don't, she acted like she was like doing me all these favors. And I was like, this is. That's your job. Yeah. Yeah.

Take care of my leg. This is what needs to happen. And we were asking. Coming out of her tip. Well, we were asking her to like consult with snake bite experts or toxicologists or someone that knew what they're doing and she just seemed so annoyed by that and defensive and you know doctors see cases all the time where they've never dealt with it it happens and it's like you consult an expert in the field then and go based off what they say right so it was just really

weird and I end up switching doctors the next day and my nurse at that point was like you should transfer hospital it was just like a ridiculous situation then infectious disease somehow got involved and he was like actually listening to me and he was like she didn't get anti-venom before coming here. It's standard for poison control to be contacted and they have all the protocols and then they consult with the doctors and like continually check in and they like open a file on you and everything. Basically, I don't know. I learned that it's like if this ever happens to you, like you should really make sure that they contact poison control because they at least have all the protocols and they're going to tell the doctors what to do.

you're just you need to be following a protocol in this situation yeah no this is awesome I'm really glad that we have you on because I don't know if we've ever done anything quite so in depth in like the recovery period or like the immediate aftermath a firsthand account of how to deal with this situation is really important so yeah hopefully the listeners are I'm taking notes hopefully everyone's taking notes this is this is so weird though that like these doctors are just like I would go check the credentials on whoever that one lady is yeah I I think like honestly the hospital has really bad reviews. It's pretty funny to read the reviews online actually.

There's one about a snake fight. We're going to know who it was. I haven't written one yet, but maybe I will. I think too, it's like I had never really thought about needing to know what was happening in the hospital. Like when I thought of snake bites, it's like just get to the hospital. They're going to deal with it. Right. Yeah.

So, yeah, it's really scary to be in a situation like that. this, you're on a ton of drugs, you can't, like, really know what's going on. Like, if it was a neurotoxic snake, too, it's like, that'd be a total, you wouldn't be able to advocate for yourself in that situation. So it is really scary. And if you're able to consult, able to get in touch with poison control, like, you can have those protocols and hopefully those will be followed correctly. Did they give you more antivenom? Yeah. So I'm not entirely sure at, like, when they started giving me more anti-venom and when exactly poison control was contacted. It was sometime in the afternoon on the 10th.

There was a bit on the 9th. So essentially they're like, okay, you need to elevate the extremity. That's like really important is elevation in the hospital. This is the first time you heard this? Yeah. Wow. Elevation is like second to anti-venom when it comes to healing from a snake bite is essentially what all experts will tell you.

They started elevating my leg at that point and I started to get more anti-venom, which was really good. I got 14 more vials of anti-venom sometime in that time frame. And then that was like the total amount I ended up getting was 44 in total. That's insane. Wow, that's so much. Yeah. So you probably got, I'm guessing that snake gave you its full load or close to its full load of venom. Yeah, I don't know. I'm curious how to know that. But it was really bad. My leg that day, I just remember it being like so massive. And I was like trying to readjust my body. and it just like didn't even feel like my leg and I like didn't know how to put it in a place where I was even comfortable. Like I was just like this is insane. How does it feel now? It feels fine.

My foot is like numb at the bite site and it's still swollen. And how long has it been since the bike? Today marks a month. Wow. On today. How swollen is it? It's not super swollen. You know, it changes like if I walk on it, it does swell up pretty quickly and like throughout the day it's going to as well. I can't like see my tendons on that side of my foot. Can you still fit in your sandal? I think I can fit in my sand. The only shoes I've been wearing are like mountain bike shoes because I can tie them super loosely. Oh yeah. That makes sense. You can get some crocks. Wireless can feel like a world of traps, but not with visible. It's one-line wireless with unlimited data and hotspot powered by Verizon for $25 a month. Taxes and fees included. Plus,

For a limited time, new members pay just $20 a month for one year on the Visible plan. Using the code Fresh Start. Refresh your wireless with Visible. Tap the banner to switch today. Terms apply. Limited time offer subject to change. See Visible.com for plan features and network management details. So you started getting better after they gave you the other anti-venom.

And what happened after that? The next morning, it was like, whoa, the swelling definitely went down. Like, this is super exciting. It was still, like, oozing fluids and stuff. the bite mark and then like where they had like stabbed my foot to measure the pressure like there's just all this fluid coming out of my foot still swollen but I could like move my ankle around and it was definitely like this is going in the right direction this is great to see and then I was able to eat for the first time so it definitely felt like okay we're not worried about

surgery anymore but I still needed to be closely monitored hooked up to machines and they were like taking my blood every six hours I think that was like what was like what poison control told them to do and they were like measuring the circumference of my leg because if it grows a certain amount then like you're supposed to give more anti-venom but from there I just progressed and technically like after 24 hours after getting anti-venom you can be like discharge from the hospital so they were like trying to discharge me 24 hours after pretty much but I was sort of in this weird situation where it's like I was moving places so my parents were just staying in a hotel and then like my car was in joshua tree with all my stuff so it's not

like i could just like go home and like deal with the situation so you're like can i just crash here a couple more days i did not want to be there i was like so fed up with that place i was like this sucks but when they had like physical therapy come in consult with me and they were like okay today we're going to try to like put weight on your leg and i was like i can't put my leg down straight. Like it was just like this ridiculous ask where I was like I cannot even sit on the side of the bed and put my leg down. And then it kind of the narrative kind of started to be, oh, like, you just got to get moving at some point and like start using my leg. And it was one of those things are. Unbelievable. So stupid. I was just like, I'm really worried this is going to make it worse. And they're like,

you can't make it worse, you know, like all this stuff. And that's not true. I'm reading articles now from people that actually know what they're talking about. They're like hospitals are going to often try to make you bear weight before you leave and like don't do it. So that's at least validating. But it was this weird thing where it's like they just kept pushing me to do this. And I like felt like a failure because I was like I literally can't do this. Like I can't.

And it was a little bit frustrating because like I've had to recover from severe injuries with this leg multiple times before. And like I understand the process of like trying to put weight on my leg again. And I was like, I just like had to bring up to them. that like I had these previous injuries and I know what pain is and like I like why did I have to do that like it's right like you really shouldn't have to um I can't decide who the most annoying person in this story is it just seemed like people progressively got more and more annoying and inept that's amazing it should be like in the hospital that should be the place where you feel like

okay I'm safe I'm here the experts will handle the situation but it's just like it seemed like you had to fight every inch of the way to get these experts to do their job That's crazy to me. That's so scary. I think I'd be most annoyed with the snake still. Really? Yeah. I think the guy in the waiting room.

Just like, don't bite me, dude. I'm just trying to get out of here. I don't know it will towards the snake like ever. You're not even annoyed? No, you're kind of bad. Like, I'm like, was it just coming out of rumation and was like, what the hell is this? And then just a massive foot comes down next to it. Or maybe you should feel flattered.

It's like, oh, that's a tasty looking foot. So we don't want to. keep you forever, but I had another question for you that I know was an important part of your story that I wanted to get to. While you're kind of dealing with all these inept doctors and nurses and everyone, I know you found a really good resource to help you know exactly what you did need to do. And would you mind explaining that a little bit? Yeah. So we were, my parents and I were doing research. And we first found the snake bite foundation, which is a really good resource. And they do mostly work in different countries addressing snake bite and venomations, but they have like all the clinical algorithms

available to people. And so that's a really awesome resource. And then somehow my cousin found this other Facebook group that's called National Snake Bite Support. And it's all the leading experts actually donate their time to addressing snake bites. So you can like post in it. And they're going to like within minutes respond to you, which is really cool. It's also like sad that this is like something that has to happen and that it's clear there's just like not great care out there and understanding of indemnations. It's interesting to read like different cases on there and just how like things are being addressed incorrectly. But it is a really good resource and I didn't find it until after, you know, I was the aftermath and like how to recover correctly. But it's like the people that

started the Snake Bite Foundation are people that moderate in it. So it's a really cool group and like you can even join just to like learn about Invenomations and you can ask questions. There's like pretty specific rules to the to the group. But it's a really good resource. I definitely recommend being a part of that or if like your animals get bit like veterinarians are on there too. That's amazing. Like Mike was saying, it's kind of sad that it had to be like, I need to find this Facebook group and I need to reach out to these other experts when you would just hope that at the hospital, they would just do all that and take care of you. And I was definitely like really upset about it right after the whole experience. And I've had like a little more time to like have some

distance from it. But yeah, it's definitely pretty upsetting. And there's definitely like people like nurses that really advocated for me and then different doctors that listened to me. So I am like grateful for those people and for the people that like helped me out in the field and stuff. Is it, if you don't mind me asking, is it stressful for you now just with like the financial aspect of all of that? Yeah. So my insurance is supposedly covering all of it.

Oh, that's great. Nice. Supposedly is not the best word there, but that's great. I hope so. Yeah. Well, like the billing hasn't gone through. And so I'm just like skeptical of it. And I already like received a bill where they're like rejected. And then I had to call them and they had the wrong, you know, insurance on file and whatever. So until it's like actually all gone through and processed, I'm going to be a little bit anxious about it. Do you know like about how much it's going to be? Yeah. So the, it's like so insane. The helicopter ride on its. own was $64,000. And then I called the hospital and asked like what the total billing was and such an insane number. But they said they were charging my insurance $391,000. It's unreal. So you're like close to like half a million altogether. Yeah. And then it's like I don't know the ambulance charge like I was in the ambulance for a while. I don't know if they're going to. And then I was also talking to

the hospital and they were like, well, that's just for the hospital services, not like all the different consults you got. So it's like, I don't know. That is crazy. It's very confusing. And then it's also like, you know, like, that's not what my insurance company is going to pay. It's going to be some much smaller number. But if I didn't have insurance, like that would be what I would be charged with. Yeah. You'd be in debt the rest of your life. Yeah. At that point, it's like, well, I guess I'm in debt forever. Like, I don't know how I would deal with that. But yeah, it makes me kind of like sick to think about those numbers. I'm like, this is. And you would almost switch to your insurance, right? Like you were, you almost were out of it. Yeah, because I was moving states and like,

I'm like teching around and then a point in my career where like I often am not like given health insurance by jobs and just get on Medicaid and stuff. So I had almost canceled it the week before. You should just never have any sort of lapsing coverage because you never happen. So is there anything else you want to talk about as far as your recovery after you were discharged or being discharged or anything else? I'm trying to think. I mean, the recovery is just like way longer than I really thought it was going to be, I guess. Yeah. I think that's a little atypical too of like a rattlesnake bite. I think you definitely got you're you're on the more extreme end of rattlesnake bites as far as envenation and recovery and symptoms. It seems like having to recover for that long and having that

much anti-venom, you definitely got a pretty large embalmation. I wanted to ask you a quick question. So I have a list here of symptoms for like potential symptoms from a rattlesnake bite. And I just want to run through them really quickly. And I just want you to say yes or no, whether or not you experience the symptom, if you don't mind. Okay. So the first one is bleeding. Yes. Heavy internal bleeding. No. Swelling. Yes. Difficulty breathing. No. Blurred vision. No. Blistering. Yes. Bruising.

Yes. Necrosis? No. Eyelid drooping? No. Low blood pressure. I had high blood pressure. Okay.

Nausea and vomiting? No. Abdominal pain? No. Numnness. Yes. Paralysis? No.

Rapid pulse. Yes. Change in skin color. Yes. Tingling? Yes. Tingling so weird. It feels like it's on fire. Is it tingling?

Extreme tingling. Intimbing. Tissue damage? Yes. Thirst? Yes. Convulsions. No. Weakness. No.

Death from internal bleeding or heart attack? No. Okay. So that's pretty much it. Don't forget rippled tongue. Ripple tongue. That's the same one. Yeah. And I think, you know, that was just rattlesnakes in general. And we did talk about how there are certain species of rattlesnakes that have some of those more neurotoxic effects. It's like a Mojave Rattler, for example, you get a higher level of the neurotoxicity. And I think some of those symptoms are more indicative of a neurotoxic snake. But yours, we're thinking is probably a Western Diamondback, which is mostly hemotoxic. And so you had a lot of the system problems like your blood and.

swelling and all that kind of stuff. So yeah. Well, is there anything else you want to add, Clara, aside from the fact that we pretty much saved your leg. I'm just kidding. I wanted to add that, and I mentioned this before, that we've always been a little hesitant to have like victims of incidents with animals on the podcast just because I don't really want to have to tell people like to their face, like, oh, here's all the things that you didn't do right. But I think you really did everything right. And I think, you know, a big part of that is having that knowledge base beforehand and having like the first aid training and all of that. But I think, you know, we talked about this on the phone a little bit. If there was one thing that could have been done

differently, it was probably just like different footwear. But as far as the footwear thing goes, we've all hiked in the desert with sandals. I do it all the time. I've hiked barefoot. Like me and Jeff go on this hike where you're barefoot half the time. Like it's hard to say like, yeah, obviously in a perfect situation you're wearing high-ankled, really durable boots when you're in the desert. And that is what you should do. But I don't necessarily think you did that wrong. That's just something like that's a learning opportunity from this. And then really quickly, I just wanted to say for people who maybe haven't listened to our other rattlesnake episode, if you are bitten by a snake, the only things you should focus on are staying calm and getting help, getting anti-venom as quickly as possible.

So you don't want to like necessarily think about all those other turnicit and all those like all those kits and everything. Don't do them. They don't help. The thing that's going to help you is getting care and hopefully competent care, which you didn't have, you know, the ability to get. But getting care as quickly as possible and staying calm. If you do manage to get a photo of the snake or something great, but that shouldn't be your focus. Your focus should just be staying calm and getting care. If you do elevate your leg, great or wherever it was bitten, that is something you can do.

You can do a light bandage to it as well. But you just, the main thing is just getting your anti-venom as quickly as possible. Yeah. And there's definitely scenarios where that would be difficult, you know, if you were like really in the back country on some sort of trip. And so I've definitely thought about how that's like pretty scary. Definitely. Yeah. So those in-reach tools are good tools.

Like it's essentially like a cell phone. that works if you need it in a pinch and it sends a signal to satellite and they can get help out to you. I have a spot device that I carry sometimes. So if you are in the backcountry, it is good for you to have some kind of way to get out and to make sure that you have some assistance. But yeah, but I think honestly, like I think you did pretty much everything right. You knew exactly what you had to do and you did it. And it probably is what ended up making it so it wasn't worse than it needed to be. Yeah, I think I did did the best I could. A plus. People can learn from. You're J-Lo and the Anaconda. Yeah. Yeah. Did you ever think that you were going to die?

No, I didn't think I was going to. I was worried about like the functionality of my foot for sure. On a scale of one to ten, how many ouches would you give your rattlesnake bite? That's, that's hard for me to do. You can do the whole experience from when you were bitten until now. How many ouchies? Gosh, I don't know. This is what's so hard to. It was like when they were asking me a pain scale the next day after being bit. It's like doesn't even compare to the pain before.

Yeah. It's hard to scale that. I don't know, maybe a six or a seven. Six. You're tougher than me. I probably would have said nine or ten had I experienced that personally. But she listens to the podcast. So she knows a 10 is like.

be alive by a bear. Right. That would suck. Yeah. I don't know though. Feeling like your legs on fire and wants to explode, it's so tight, sounds pretty awful to me. Yeah.

I'll give it a seven. It was bad. Yeah. Okay. Well, is there anything else you want to say before we let you go? I think that just like snakes are super cool and it sucks when they're like so sensationalized in like media and stories. and I just think like it's good to have, you know, a healthy respect of them.

And I think if you just understand them better, like it sucks like you can get bit without really doing anything wrong in terms of you just not aware of them being there. But I think they're super cool. So. Yeah. We do too. We do too. We're big fans. For everyone out there, there are, it's like, I think it's roughly five to six thousand on

average bites per year in the U.S. from venomous snakes. And on average, it's like five or six people that die each year. So it is like your chances of dying from a snake in the U.S. at least are really, really slim. So we love snakes too. We absolutely love them. Well, cool. Thanks so much, Clara, for being on the podcast.

Thanks for telling your story. I do think I'm with Mike. I think it's going to help a lot of people and understanding that when you are getting care, you don't just have to listen to what they're telling you. And you can kind of take some of that autonomy and learn for yourself and make sure you're getting the highest level of care. Yeah, totally. good to advocate yourself.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, we appreciate it. Thanks so much. Thanks, Clara. It was awesome. Thanks, guys. Bye.

See it. Bye. Well, that was a crazy story. Thanks so much, Clara, for being on the podcast. Again, anyone else out there that has something that might happen to them or someone that they know, be sure to write us. I think because our Instagram inbox and our Patreon inbox get pretty crazy, just send it to our email address, the tooth and claw at gmail.com.

that tends to be an easier way to kind of sort those out. Jeff, do you have any listener or Patreon questions for us? Yeah, I do. It's crazy how every time you ask Wes, he does. Yeah. I know, right? One day I might not. Okay, so this one, I'm for sure not reading your whole name

because I don't think they want me to put them out publicly for this one. But from Thomas, I don't know why it's probably. specifies horses, but here we go. Do horses or other animals have wet dreams? I don't know. It's a good question. I don't know why he wants to know horses specifically. In particular.

Thomas, you might want to think long and hard about that. Long and hard, huh? We don't know. I don't know. I would imagine so. I mean, we're not that different from other animals. Well, like primates will masturbate. I've seen that.

Right? I think I've seen that. I feel like at the zoo I've seen it. Yeah, they do. Oh, I saw them last time as the San Diego Zoo, I saw multiple primates masturbating. You saw it while you're there? I've got a video of it. You have a mandrill.

Oh, man. Fully going at it. Cranking? Yeah. I mean, animals, even domesticated animals can barely control their sexual urges when they're awake. I mean, they must be gone to nighttime is probably where they thrive. Yeah, I think so. Oh, yeah, when we're like not watching them, you mean?

Yeah. Yeah. I feel like what dreams are from like when you're like not taking care of that on your own, you know? And I think most animals probably just take care of it. But I don't know. That's, I think we're going down at it. I don't know. Yeah.

That's an interesting point. Yeah. All right. From James. What do you think Frodo and Bilbo did once they arrived in Valanor? Just sit around in an elven spa? and then they want to know about the 1981 movie Roar

but I want to get into this spa? Yeah build us right really quick The 1981 1981 movie Roar we're going to do a whole episode

on that at some point so you're just going to have to wait for that Valanore is like supposed to be the most beautiful wonderful on Valenor so no Valenor is supposed to be like heaven

for elves pretty much and so it's supposed to be just like a place of pure joy and happiness and everything. So in my mind, it's like, what are you planning on doing in heaven? That's kind of what Bilbo and Frodo would probably do in Valenor. I like to think that right when they get there, there's just a gigantic water park with just so many watersides and hardly any lines at all to get on the sides.

And like one of those ones where you go like underwater and then there's like an aquarium. With sharks and stuff. Uh-huh. And like they're just- Hobbits would like that. Water sliding around. Yeah, especially like Bilbo and Frodo, because they're more adventurous. They just want like a big old potato stew right afterwards, though, and like, I don't know.

I mean, it's built for elves, though, not hobbits. True. That's true. And elves are very serious. It might just be like conferences all the time and like meetings. Yeah, Council of Elrond every day. They're probably bored in Valenor, the elves. They, like, they just make gardens and stuff and trees.

I don't know That's a good question I'd like to I think I would go to more spas If there were water slides in them I don't think that's like a spa thing right Like a water slide into a spa That'd be kind of sick

We should have like a tooth and claw Vacation that we invite some lucky fans on To Atlantis Resort And there's like part of the water park Is like Mordor themed And it's like all dark And like they're all like tunnels Where you like go

And you got like a dark voice as you're going through that's like... Or you go through like smosh. That was Gandalf that said that. Yeah, but it still applies to waterslide. The water slide designed by the dwarfs would be like really angular. So you would like hit the side and keep going and not like a smooth curve. It's be like really geometric shaped. I like how our question of what Bilbo and Frodo are doing in Valenor has turned into our middle-earth-themed water park.

Discussion. All right. And then from Instagram, from Jeffrey M. Ward, what was your biggest personal ouchy? Mine was probably falling out of that tree with the black bear

and breaking my ankle. That hurt really bad. It's definitely an ankle for me. I, like, ruptured my pettler tendon, my kneecap shot up into my thigh. But the worst pain from that was after the surgery. I woke up and I, like, felt everything.

thing and like immediately was just hyperventilating and then they like pump me with morphine. So went from your worst out sheet to your best non-out. Yeah, yeah. Mike? When I got my appendix out the whole night before leading up to it, I had, I just had really bad stomach cramps and I was like, I'll just force myself to throw up. Whatever I ate, something's wrong. Is in there.

If I can fall asleep, I'll just wake up and I'll feel better. And I was laying in my bed for like eight hours, just sweating and dying. And finally, I don't think I fell asleep. I think I more just passed out from pain for like an hour. And then when I woke up, it felt like a grenade had gone off inside of my body. And that's when I knew. Probably it was not just like bad sushi or something that I was actually on my way to the afterlife. We'll let the listeners rate our outgies.

I thought of a worse one, but I'm not going to say it just for sake. a time. So I'll just go at the table. Once I played mud volleyball and someone threw a ball of mud and hit me right in the eye and it somehow worked its way under my contact lens. And when I got home, it started hurting really bad and the pain just got worse and worse and worse to where I was like writhing on the ground. And I couldn't take my contact lens out for like couldn't open my eye long enough to get my lens out because the pain was so intense. And it just was worse and worse and worse. And finally I had to call an optometrist and go to like an emergency appointment at like midnight.

And he managed to like dole the pain and then get my eye open and peeled my contact out. And he said that he had to pull like 20 or 30 little shards of dirt. And like he said they looked like little shards of glass out of my eye with little tweezers, just like microscopic ones. And it was awful. It hurts so bad. I don't like that. All right.

And then one more. Seth asks, what is your? favorite food that is also food for a wild animal so not like a not like dumpster like people food but like what's your favorite food it's good milk i'm gonna go with blackberries i love me i'm gonna go blackberries yeah i'm gonna go a backstrap elk steak with some morel mushrooms i find and some wild onion mixed with it then maybe like a little huckleberry sauce on top yeah yeah All right. That's a good pick. Jeff wins. It was like five foods, but whatever.

Not, well, we can, I mean, it's the whole cake and ice cream argument. I'm preparing it for that way, though. All right. Well, thanks for the questions, guys. Those are some great questions. Yeah. Thanks so much. You're welcome.

All right, everyone. Well, I hope you enjoyed this interesting episode. We had news. We had a story from a new friend. We had some facts. We had questions. we had all sorts of stuff in this episode. We have fun.

Boy, did we have fun. That's the main thing we had. It was fun, right? I guess. Thanks, everyone for all your encouragement. Thanks, especially to all you subscribers on Patreon and on our Gris Club on apples. Apple, apples? On apples.

Oh, man. And if you feel like writing us a nice review, go ahead and write us a nice review. You can rate us on Spotify. You can write us a nice review on Apple. If you don't want to write a nice review, then don't write one. Write us a mean one. No, don't. It'll hurt Jeff's feelings.

Yeah, it does. All right. Thanks, guys. We love you. Bye, bye. See you. Bye.