Tooth & Claw: True Stories of Animal Attacks - The Beast in the Clouds - A Book Report with Jeff

Episode Date: September 28, 2026

In a bid to make a name for themselves and make a contribution to the world of science, two of Teddy Roosevelt's sons set out to China to find the mythical giant panda. Jeff gives a wonderful little book report about their experiences! He read and references heavily Nathalia Holt's book "The Beast in the Clouds: The Roosevelt Brothers' Deadly Quest to Find the Mythical Giant Panda" for this episode. Watch this episode on YouTube: https://youtu.be/8-PPZA78eew ~ LMNT - Get a free 8-count Sample Pack of LMNT's most popular drink mix flavors with any purchase at https://drinklmnt.com/tooth Nutrafol - Get $10 off your first month's subscription and free shipping at https://nutrafol.com with promo code TOOTH Rocket Money - Let Rocket Money help you find and cancel unwanted subscriptions, monitor your spending, and lower your bills—join at https://rocketmoney.com/CLAW. Remi - Prioritize your teeth this month and go to shopremi.com/TOOTH and use code TOOTH at checkout for 50% off with Remi Club. onX Backcountry - Click here (use hyperlink https://www.onxmaps.com/purchase/backcountry/membership?promo=tooth&utm_source=tooth_and_claw&utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=bc_comm_nosoc_%5Btooth_and_claw%5D) and use promo code TOOTH to get 30% off a premium or Elite membership to onX Backcountry Fi - Get up to 30% off and free shipping on Fi smart GPS and health trackers for dogs and cats at https://fitracking.com with promo code TOOTH. ~ To advertise on the show, contact us! Patreon - https://www.patreon.com/c/toothandclawpodcast ~~ Tooth & Claw is brought to you by QCODE. Support the show and get access to an extensive library of exclusive episodes like this by supporting the show on Patreon or joining the Grizzly Club on Apple Podcasts. For the latest updates on the show and all things wildlife, follow us at toothandclawpod.com and social:  Instagram: @ToothandClawPodcast Twitter: @ToothandClawPod Wes: @GrizKid Jeff: @jefe_larson Mike: @mikey3ds Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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That's coming out September 30th. So look for that link. We're going to be posting it on our social media. We're going to be sending it out everywhere. We're really excited it. The link itself is going to be tooth and claw vinyl.com. It's going to go live on the 30th. And there's only going to be 750 of those.

So once they're sold out, they're gone forever. They're really cool looking vinyl records. You're going to get a link to an MP3 as well if you don't want to listen on vinyl. There's a really fun commemorative t-shirt you can buy if you want. We're just excited to get that episode back out there with the whole explanation of why we pulled it, some really important corrections. I'm super excited about it. So that happens on September 30th.

Mark your calendar because there is just a limited number. Speaking of limited number, we're doing much. merch a new way too. We have a new merch provider and we're really excited about that as well, but our merch offerings now are going to be extremely limited. They're only going to run for about a week and we're only going to sell a few items at a time. So starting October 6, we're going to have three brand new tooth and claw merch items up for sale. That's going to be at tooth and claw dot shop. There's going to be three brand new pieces of merch. They're really cool. They're only going to be available for a very limited time. And there's only a limited number of them as well. We're going to be

well. So that merch sale starts on October 6th. So again, two important dates to remember. September 30th, our first ever episode goes live on vinyl, tooth and clawvinyl.com. And then on October 6th, we're going to have three brand new pieces of merch for sale for a very limited time, tooth and claw.shop. All right, that is it. I hope you guys enjoy this episode that Jeff prepared. Hello everyone, welcome back to Tooth and Claw podcast. We have our wildlife biologist, Wes Larson, with us. And then we have Mike Smith, who's just our friend. It's up, big dogs.

And I'm... What up? I'm Jeff Larson. I'm as close to a wildlife biologist as you can get without being one. I don't think I'd agree with that either. But... You know, you've definitely dipped your toes a few times, which is great. Yeah.

Dipping him in what? Dipped them in rotten meat. Biology. Because that's what we used for catching bears. Watch out, Quentin Tarantino. His feet are gross. Yeah. I lost a duck last night.

Oh, man. I hope you find him. It was my fault, too. And those are Jesse's favorite birds. And I left the coop open. And the duck decided to go on a little walk at like midnight. And guess what? The fox got it.

And it's pretty sad. Oh, no. I'm in the dog house. Wow, Mike seemed sad. I like ducks. I really, our ducks are our favorite birds. And this was the, it was the big one for her. That was the bird she liked the most.

So it was a hard night. Shoot. Which one was it? Our oldest bird. And it was the oldest duck. So I have a name? We don't name any of the birds really. There's only one of our birds right now that has a name.

How much can you really love one of these animals if you don't even bother to name it? You know what, Mike? That's a whole question. I take back my sorrow. I'm not sad. I'm not sorry. Does the fox have a name? The fox isn't named.

No. And yeah, it's a good question. But we do have a lot of foxes. Well, I have an episode for us today. Good. I did my New Year's resolution. I read a book. All right.

Yes, I finished it before the end of the year. And kind of read a book and a half because I finished a book that I had started a previous year before I read this book. But I read the book called The Beast in the Clouds. And so I just kind of wanted to, well, if I'm going to read a book, I'm going to talk about it as much as possible. So I figured I'd do an episode on the book I read. So, chapter one, the Happy Valley, a trail once traced in an ancient path across the largest continent on earth. It started on the coast of the Indian Ocean before edging into the damp rainforest of Minar.

It followed the fast-flowing river, its banks teeming with life. Or I guess I'll just tell you kind of what happened. That would be a lot better. I think that's better, in my opinion. All right. I was recently chatting with a friend, okay? And she's like a bit more conservative, but has kind of fallen off of that a bit. But I don't know.

Anyways, we had some overlapping discussion in like various different conspiracy theories. So we were still like bonding over our ideas for a few different things. Anyway, one way or another, I brought up that I was reading the book, The Beast in the Clouds, and that is about searching for giant pandas, right? To which she responded, yeah, China invented pandas, right? And I was taken aback. To be honest, it had been a while since I heard something so stupid from someone who I, like, somewhat respected their opinions, right?

I've heard that conspiracy before. And it made me question if that's how I come off talking to some NASA person about the moon landing or something, you know, because like I know I know enough about wildlife to know that's just a stupid idea to have that pandas were just created. Yeah. But I look into this conspiracy theory a little more. Wes, you've heard it? Yeah, just that like no old art in China has pandas in it. Yeah. So, yeah, there's a group of chronically online people who are questioning if pandas are real animals or were created in, like, a Chinese lab. And like Wes was saying, there's not too much art that shows pandas before the 1900s.

And I'll just let Tucker Carlson's guest explain it better. Okay. So this is Owen Benjamin on Tucker Carlson. I know about a lot. I don't think pandas are real as described. I'm sorry? Panda bears. Like I know about a lot of lies.

Like, I think they're like Shih Tzu dogs. Like, I think they were never wild. Really? They ovulate three days a year. They can't survive. All they do is eat bamboo and they cannot make them procreate. Guess what a group of pandas is called. What?

An embarrassment of pandas. Very good joke. The more you look into that, the more China owns all of them, which only happens if you have a patent, right? And the first time they were never in China. Chinese literature or art until the end of the 19th century. Because bamboo is super hard to get rid of. And all they do is eat bamboo and they're like, wharf it and they roll down hills and they can't have sex.

They weren't in Chinese art or literature? Never. Not until the end of the 1800s. Okay. So that proves it right there. Because like, how could you not paint a panda? Yeah. And then people are like, oh, so you think they're robots?

I'm like, have you ever seen a sheet? You think there were wild chitzus? So, like, I'm aware of a lot of deception in the world. So pretty interesting points Wes Yeah very interesting So that guy was Supposing that they were invented to curtail the bamboo

Population There was too much bamboo Like his hypothesis was And that was the easiest way China could come up with To get rid of it By creating a whole new animal Yeah that's amazing A bear

I think Yeah Part of it's just like that China only is like the only country that owns pandas so people get like weird about that. And like there really isn't very much art of pandas, which is surprising like comparative to most cultures and art with their wildlife. But I mean, as we're going to get into with this book, they're just extremely rare even like back then. So it wasn't like most of the big Chinese cities had never seen them. panda, you know. Yeah. Saying that they're the only country that owns them to is kind of a weird way of

putting it. And I know for pandas, it makes more sense because China leases them to zoos and stuff. But like, that just means they're endemic to China. And like, we have animals like that in the U.S. Like American alligators are only found in the U.S., you know? So, like his point there is very, it's kind of like there's a lot of animals that only live in one country. Sure, but not too many as like rare and iconic as a panda. Yeah, but that's just because of human preference that we've made them that iconic. It's because they're like so cute and amazing. They're pretty unique and like awesome.

But so are American alligators, you know? But there's like a million of those. Yeah, sure. But that doesn't change my point at all. Like that doesn't, I think saying they own them is still like a weird way of saying that. Like they're endemic to that country. it more just makes pandas still kind of seem a little mythical that like they're you know like ring-tailed lemurs are beautiful cute animals we don't say madagascar owns ringtailed lemurs you know

it's just kind of maybe we should get tucker on the show and ask him some of these questions i'll i don't know i have that later on but like how it works with the zoo system but it is unique i mean i i I hear what you're saying, but also, like, there's no other animal that countries have to pay millions of dollars to keep them each year. For sure. Yeah. But it kind of turns out that we're just in the matrix times a flat circle because much as I'm trying to do right now, in 1928, two of former president Theodore Roosevelt's sons named Ted and Kermit sailed to an unmap section of China. and Napaa to try to confirm the existence of pandas to the world. And on this episode, I'm also trying to confirm that existence to some of these.

What's that guy's name? Owen Wilson. Yeah, who knows? I've found it already. Owen Wilson. Wow. Pandas, huh? Have you ever daydreamed about how great it would be to have as many people love you as Troy from high school musical did. Well, honestly, that's how I feel up my apartment complex right now,

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Find your favorite flavor or share with a friend. Also, no question asked refunds. If you don't like it, just send it back. So Ted and Kermit, they traveled to China in 1929. It's April in 1929. They're separated from their original group. They've almost froze to death multiple times after greatly underestimating the terrain and the Himalayas.

They've been saved by several different unexpected villages and had given up complete hope of finding a panda. and the two brothers raise their rifles in unison and fire. But let's back up. What's something you guys know about Ted and Kermit's dad, Theodore Roosevelt? Oh, Teddy. He's a boisterous man. He loves hunting, but he also loves conservation.

He wasn't one to take no guff from anyone. He wore those, people say John Lennon, popularized those little circular glasses. I think it was Teddy. He always has those tiny little glasses on. Yeah. Oh, yeah. He wrote a moose?

Wrote a moose. That's a good one. Did you guys know that he kind of invented the way we have American football now? No. Oh, really? He implied the forward pass into the game because the game almost, like football almost got canceled

in 1920. Or no, before the 1920s, when he was president, because it was so dangerous. Like, 18 people would die a year, college kids from playing football. Huh. And the way it worked was, like, a five-yard gain was a first down, but there's no passing, so they would just, like, beat the shit out of each other and try to move the ball five yards. Establish the run game, the whole game. There's one year with, like, Yale and Harvard were seven.

students died so they banned it for two years and then Teddy Roosevelt loved football so he brought it back and like had his son Ted play in the game and um Ted got like a broken nose and a gashed open cheek right away because the other team was like this is the president's son let's kick his ass and Ted's like then the next year 18 kids died and they Ted's like hey we got to fix this He's our most interesting president, in my opinion. Like, of all the presidents, he, when I read his book about exploring the Amazon, I was just like, this was an interesting dude. Yeah, and like maybe part of Ted and Kermit's fascination with finding a new type of bear

stemmed from their father's legacy and his, like, legendary story of the teddy bear. So do you guys know Teddy bears after Teddy Roosevelt? So in 1902, President Roosevelt went on a bear hunting trip in Mississippi at the invitation of the governor, Andrew Longino. And he had this guide named Coelier. He was a formerly enslaved man who became the most prolific bear hunter in the nation and it killed over 3,000 bears. So he used to be a slave. Then he got freed and he was just like, I'm not. just going to kill bears now.

That's my new thing. So, kind of, you're rooting for him and tell that, right? Yeah. He also served as a Confederate cavalry scout during the Civil War. So he has kind of a complicated history. Interesting. But they hunt for several days and Roosevelt hadn't seen a bear the whole time. So, um, Holt gets ahead of him, finds a bear.

He, like, clubs it. and beats it and ties it to a tree and calls Teddy over to come shoot it. Teddy refuses and says it's unsportsmanlike. And the legend has him. There's like a cartoonist who drew a really cute bear tied to a tree and Teddy being all heroic and saving the bear. And it became like a whole thing. They created toys.

They created like teddy bears. Started selling them. Now everyone still has teddy bears. But in reality, he just had someone else killed a band because it was already suffering a lot. Oh. But still good on him for refusing to kill it and saying like this isn't a good sport. Also, to all you parent listeners out there, be careful what games you play with your children because it might stick with them the rest of their life.

Don't play any like jigsaw games with them. Yeah. Right. Teddy had a game called Bearhub. And it was like the bear game and his kids would beg him to play it. And he would act like a bear, growling and lumbering after his kids as they shrieked and ran. And he'd tackle and wrestle him. And just was like a, like Wes was saying, was a big energetic man.

But that was like the game that his kids liked to play the most with him is Bear Hunt. But yeah, I think conservation is, probably his biggest lasting legacy. He placed roughly 230 million acres of American land under federal protection, which is more than any president had before him. He made 150 national forests, 51 federal bird reserves, starting with Pelican Island in Florida in 1903. and that was the beginning of today's national wildlife refuge system.

So like plume hunters were wiping out a lot of birds for women hat feathers when he did that. I could go either way on that. Those are pretty cool. He made four national game preserves five national parks, but only three of which are still there today, crater lake, wind cave, and Mesa Verde. And then he did like a really cool one where like people were catching on to how much land he was protecting, like all these super rich private owners.

So like as they were catching on, he just really went for it and protected a ton of land right before they could stop him. And it seems like he really cared. So I respect him for that. He, like, famously would camp in Yosemite with John Muir and just, like, had a lot of really good influences in his life. And, like, it seems like a lot of what he wanted to do was protect what makes America so great, which is our wildlife and forests. And he created the Forest Service as well.

Yeah. He's really adamant about people putting controls on, like, the presidency and, like, the government and stuff. He like, I really, the last few years, I've read a lot of quotes from him just about how he had a forward-looking vision on how America shouldn't be. You know, I don't know, I'm not saying this the right way, but he was just like a very forward-looking person. But like he kind of could see what was coming and try to protect. Yeah. He probably removed his rear view mirror in his car, you think?

Only looking forward all the time. Were they driving cars in the? Like 1905. Not quite. I don't think. I have no idea. I think that's a half measure, though. You got to remove your side view mirrors, too, to go, like, all the way.

You never hear about people doing that. That's true. Yeah. The thing I was referencing was called The Midnight Forest. And in 1907, Western members of Congress passed a measure to stop him from creating more national forests in several states before signing it. Roosevelt and his Forest Service guy Pinchot rushed to designate about 16 million acres of new forest inside the bill. That's amazing. So like, yeah, it's pretty much.

You really, you got to wonder like what it were we would be if it wasn't for him, like with our conservation. Yeah, capitalism's not very great for conservation. Conservation, no. He died January 6th, 1919 in his sleep at Sagemoor Hill. in Oyster Bay, New York, and he was 60. Blood clot got into his lungs. Don't do that. And a lot of that was from, he got really sick in an expedition in like the Brazilian Amazon after being president.

That's the book I wrote. River of doubt. He almost died of malaria out there. Also, he was like super sad because the year before, his son had been shot down as a pilot in World War I. that will make you sad when that happens I think he probably didn't have rearview mirror in his point yeah I would imagine maybe should have

maybe he would have saved him so I mean that's just devil's advocate there might not but no he could have seen that bullet coming if he got shot from behind me he could have dodged and vice president Thomas Marshall summed up his death by saying death had to take Roosevelt sleeping because if he had been awake there would have been a fight

which is a cool quote yeah it's pretty sweet yeah no one's going to say that about any of us so they're going to say of course he was asleep in his life he took ted and kermit around the world to do several different hunts but also just to like see the world and the boys carried this bond in love for the outdoors with them the rest of their lives. So eventually pandas became the main focus of where they put all this energy from their dad. I know it's kind of a controversial thing nowadays to say like discovered pandas because like there were people in China who lived with pandas.

It's not like humans discovering pandas. Yeah. But I do still think it's like... Described as a better word. Yeah. I do still think though like... It deserves a lot of credit to have like a world known documentation of animals. Yes.

That's what I think described is a better word for it. Okay. Yeah. So like Western world discovery or describing this animal. But it there was like especially in these big museums a big push and I'm going to use the word discovery because that's what they were using and it was a discovery for this group of people, this like information system at the time. Right.

True. Honestly, though, what they're trying to do is document it and, like, confirm that it's an actual animal, which is an important thing. Like, it's good that we have museums. It's good that we have worldwide information. And this really started gathering information of, like, all these animals they exist in the 1800s. And they wanted, like, a worldwide database of, like, what animals exist, right? Yeah. Descriptions.

So the first pandasks. specimens were sent to Paris in 1869, and they're sent by Pierre Armand David, who is a French missionary and naturalist. And he was on a mission in Mupin. He saw his panda skin in a local home, and he hired some hunters to get him some specimens. So within a few weeks, they brought him a young panda and an adult. They were both killed. He prepared the skins and bones, shipped them to Paris, and the Paris Museum got, it's called the Museum National de Historia National in Paris. But the whole world's like, oh, wow, there's another type of bear.

And this is like the last bear to be documented worldwide, right? But actually, at the time, so Pierre thought it was a bear, but they get there. It has like this extra kind of thumb-like thing. it's like a bone that protrudes out of the hand and it seems a lot more to some naturalist like a red panda because they also like it eats bamboo they're like this is a red panda that's why it gets the name giant panda is red pandas had already been documented oh and they got the name from like the word bamboo eater in the Tibetan language so then like they think this is a larger version of red pandas so they call it a giant panda that's so i would have totally guessed the other way around

that right and like giant pandas were yeah because they're like the main panda in my brain but that's so strange for newer listeners are red pandas bears no no they're pretty unique yeah they're not really raccoons either they're kind of their own thing yeah but eventually we get like DNA tests on that settles for sure that like this is a bear right but that's a long ways away and museums are peaking in popularity in the early 1900s so like there's this panda that got turned in in close to or is what 1969 but like it's been about 50 years now and no one's ever seen a band there in the wild you said 19169 sorry it's been 50 years now no one's ever seen a band there in the wild 1869 sorry it's been 50 years now no one's ever a panda in the wild from the Western world, right?

From like where information is passed from country to country. No one's ever seen one in the wild and like there becomes some debate. Is there actually this eighth bear? Does it even exist? Did these locals just like sew two animals pelt together and create a panda? Because it's like a ridiculous thought but it's also kind of a crazy thought that there's just a bear that no one's ever seen. in the world.

You know. So obviously people debating that today, which is crazy. Yeah. Right. So. Human dressed in a bear costume. We've seen China do that before, right? Yeah.

No. Or those dogs that they painted like pandas. Yes. That they did. See? They're all, they're up to bear shenanigans over there. Maybe he's on to something. So Ted and Kermit used their famous last name, Roosevelt, and they start to, like, get funds to be

able to do an expedition out to China. There's an unmapped section of China that is just super appealing to them as explorers. It's like one of the last unmapped sections of the entire explored world at that point. So they're like, it'd be so cool to go map this, to go like see what's out there and to like take good notes and like make a legacy for ourselves because we've been in our dad's shadow like brawny james this entire time you know he casts a large shadow it's a big guy oh that i guess they wouldn't know about brawny yet not yet not yet they were looking forward maybe yeah a little side tangent because i started i started just like looking into how each bear was i i say discovered for lack of better word documented in these museums is what i should

say, right? Described. Documented. It's fine. I'm just giving you the best word, like the word that most people use. Describe is like scientifically. That is the most appropriate word. That's the word.

Okay. Yeah. Okay. So the Sun Bear's formal scientific description came in 1821. And it is Sir Thomas Stanford Raffles, a British colonial administrator, best known for founding modern Singapore today. And he was out there. He found sun bears when he was out there, right?

So he kept a young sun bear as a pet. Do you think he kidnapped any girls in Singapore? Only one. When we got to Singapore, our taxi driver was just like, hey, don't kidnap any girls. Not even one. Yeah. And then he's like, and if you do, go to South Singapore. All right, man, it's not in our plan.

It's like, dude, you're putting thoughts in my mind that weren't there. So he describes sun bears back to Britain, you know, in these museums, and he keeps one as a pet, which he described as gentle and playful, wrote that it was raised with his children and allowed to eat at his table. And it was like quite the different picture at this. time because like people were more familiar with brown bears black bears and even like some interaction with with polar bears so bears were just deemed as like monsters kind of they're like wait this guy's eating dinner with his kids in a bear he like loves fruit and has a super long

time that probably where they came up with paddington honestly yeah but like basically that's kind of what ted and kermit are going for here right they want to make a name for themselves like Pierre or Thomas Raffles did. So they start forming a crew, like McGruber, Dominic Torretto, Schwarzenegger and Predator. They form their crew, okay?

They need someone who can speak Chinese, so they get in contact with a 19-year-old Chinese-American interpreter, an NYU student named Jack Young. He was born in Hawaii, but lived in China, of his childhood. One of the brothers is riding on a train and just like happens to meet up with an old

college friend named Sudam. Uh-oh. It's S-U-Y-D-A-M, so I hope I'm saying that, right. I think we're safe then. Yeah, I don't know. Sudan. It doesn't sound like Sudam. It could be Sudam.

To me, yeah, yeah. It's either a hard A or soft-A, so I don't know. Sud-D-A-M. Yeah, never use the hard. They start, like, talking. walking on the train forever and he's telling him about yeah we're going to China soon it's going to be so awesome and Saddam's just like oh man that's awesome like that sounds so fun you're going to have so much fun out there and they're like you should come and he's like all right all these other like people who are

way more qualified are just like why are you could bring in this guy and he's like an amateur scientist and all this stuff, but he's just good vibes. So they invited him along. And there's also a British scientist who's like a really good note taker documenting things named Herbert, who's going to go on the trip. So the group's Ted, who's 41, Kermit, who's 39. Those are both Roosevelt's sons. Herbert, who's 51, Jack, who's 19, and Sudan, who's 39.

They make plans also to meet up with their friend Russell Hendy if they ever found a panda. So put a pin in that and Wes don't forget Russell Andy. Russell Handy, got it. Wes is always thinking about handies. I have. Yeah, that's easy. Yeah. Keep that one in mind.

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That's neuterful.com spelled N-U-T-R-A-F-O-L dot com promo code tooth. This episode is brought to you by Rocket Money. Oh, how I wish. I had Rocket Money when I was a college kid. Even back then, I was struggling to stay on top of all the subscriptions that I had. All of them. I had like three. And yet, they still still. found a way to get me really good. I was trying to be as responsible as I could be with money. I was eating carrots for breakfast and dinner. I was living in a dingy little living space. I thought I was living very frugly. Turns out that whole time for two years, it turns out all that time, I was still subscribed to an MMRP, much to my shame. That's hundreds of dollars I was out.

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of a story that I'm just going to throw in every once in a while. but one of them that I liked is the two brothers. They traveled a lot and they always brought three books with them. And I just don't think you guys would ever guess the three books. So they would bring pride and prejudice. Hell yeah. My guys. Sense and sensibility.

Two Jane Austens. And Jane Eyre. Jane Eyre. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So that's like the three go-to books and they just reread them out in the mountains wherever they were in the world.

I love that. Kind of like comfort books. Yeah, I was wondering like what three books I would bring. Maybe Beast in the Clouds. Since it's like one of the three books I've ever read. Yeah. That's a terrible choice. You got to bring.

That's crazy. Well, I don't know. Because like everyone when you talk about like what's your five Desert Island albums, maybe bring ones you haven't heard before. So it's like a new experience. Well, I read it. I know. I don't.

Okay. Yeah, you just got me thinking, you know? We all pick like stuff we've already experienced before. Yeah, maybe pick like four that you love and then one that you like save, kind of like cast away where you didn't open that one package. Bring a dictionary just to like learn words. Just be like extra, you know? That's crazy, dude.

If you read the dictionary, like, it's like every book at once. You just have to read it in the right order. That's such a good idea, Jeff. You're a genius. How did you come up with that? Just like the way you read it, you could read any book. Right. So they like sailed to China.

They get there and pretty early on, everyone's amazed at how different everything is. It's still kind of untouched from modernization and this like industrial revolutionary era world where things are just. getting destroyed for capitalism, right? But all the plants are different, animals are different, and it's just like a part of the section of the world still separated from human encroachment. Like there's humans there, but it's like they're living with the natural world. So they're there for like a week,

and they start already getting annoyed with a member as a group. Herbert, because he's like 51 years old, So I think he was like the only one who wasn't completely listening to Ted and Kermit. Okay. Like Jack, Jack was like awesome because he just felt so lucky to have been included. Yeah. And like Saddam also just was like kind of not even supposed to be there. So he's just happy.

But Herbert was like an actual. Yeah. He's like an actual scientist. He's older than everyone in the group. And he's going incredibly slow. Like every new butterfly they would find, he would like take out his journal, take really detailed notes and like draw it perfectly in his journal. Which is really important because a lot of these species honestly end up getting wiped out from the world. And his notes are like part of their lasting legacy.

So it's like really important that he's doing this. But they're like, hey dude, we're here to see pandas. And we're never going to get there at this pace, right? So they're getting mad at Herbert pretty early on. And he even, like, is going so slow. They, like, kind of go ahead of him a little bit, and he gets completely lost from the group. And it's way too early on. It's a bad sign.

But miraculously, a local fisherman who, like, doesn't know any English, just picks him up on a boat. And they're, like, able to meet back up with him. And they continue their expedition and they find their first large mammal of the trip, which was a very unexpected animal. So first before I tell you about the animal, they get to their first big village in the wilderness of China. And they're supposed to, like, they had plans. This one's close enough to where other Westerners are traveling that they're able to make plans with the locals. They're supposed to meet the king of the village. And they get there and they meet his brother Feng.

And his brother's like, yeah, my brother is just completely addicted to opium and pretty much not even a real person anymore. I can't really even function. Starts telling him about the state of China. His mom had like recently been taken by soldiers in a cage. And Ted and Kerman are like, hey, make him say. that again because that can't be right. And Jack kind of like had lived there a little bit so he knows everything going on and he believes it and tells him again. But Fang is like a great host. He gives him this huge welcome dinner and they get again a little frustrated and irritated

with Herbert because he can't use chopsticks at all. And they're all like, come on, dude. Like, you're embarrassing us here. But then he, like, introduces him to his one-year-old baby, who's most likely going to become, like, a prince or a king. And things like, hey, what's a good name for this thing? They're like, what? He's like, yeah, what's like a Western name for my baby? Maybe something that starts with a W.

And they, like, talk with themselves. And they're like, how about Walter? And he's like, all right, his name's Walter. He just names this kid, Walter, on the spot, which was kind of a funny thing. I like how he did have a double-you. He's like, I know I want it to be a double-year. But basically, like, starting in 1839, there was like a British opium war in China where, like, British were obsessed with Chinese tea.

And they, for whatever reason, get China just completely addicted to. opium where one and four Chinese people had a strong addiction to the drug. It's one of the worst cases of over-drug uses in the entire history of the human race. So throughout their whole travels, they're seeing people addicted to opium. But anyways, back to this mammal, right? So they leave this village and they start trekking back through the Chinese landscape and they see some really murky waters of the Mekong River. And there's rumors of a legendary beast that lives in this river, right?

So they dismiss the rumors and just kind of are like walking on as they look at the water and they see a giant gray flash. And like multiple of them see it. So they're like, okay, maybe there is a legendary mythical animal in here. So they stop and like for the first time they're kind of like on the same pace as Herbert. They're like, all right, yeah, we can stop and wait and look for a while. And the animal eventually resurfaces. Herbert immediately begins sketching a fin and a round head.

Kermit blinks in amazement as he watches a dolphin 500 miles from the ocean play in the water. Whoa. So it was an era water. dolphin and it was brackish water so there was some salt in it but it's like they were not expecting to see dolphins soon after that they're traveling and they see a bunch of sarus cranes do you know any facts about saurus cranes west i don't no so i the book said this and i googled it and apparently they're the largest flying birds in the world. Huh, how do you spell it? S-A-R-U-S. Yeah, tall, no, tallest flying bird in the world. Tallest. Yeah. Okay. Like wimby. Yeah.

It's still impressive. The largest I want to say is Andy and Condor, but I'm not sure. Let's see. What's the widest? Wondering Albatross is the largest wingspan. Heavyest is Andy and Condor, tallest is the sars crane. What's the silliest? Silliest. I don't know. They have to be like a parrot that swears. Parrot that you taught swear words.

Yeah. Yeah, right? See all these cranes and again to kind of show you this dynamic, Kermit and Ted immediately raise their guns. Like, we got to get a sample of these huge birds. And Herbert's like, no, lower your rifles. And they sneak up on the cranes and get rid of. close and he documents them in his journal and there's a whole bunch of them and they start flying

away and it's just like it feels like Jurassic Park you know here's the tallest birds in the world we didn't know they existed and now we're like watching a huge group of them fly around that's good herbert took notes and was the first person to ever be able to identify them as an indicator species which says the environment's getting bad and this bird's going to start like doing worse. But like you guys can imagine how otherworldly this must feel for them. They're still at the start of the trip. They've seen dolphins 500 miles from the ocean and now they're seeing the largest flying birds in the world. Yeah. Sometimes when I think like if I could go back to any time, I think I'd want to go back to the early 1900s and be like an explorer just to see stuff for the first

time and as a you know describe it science for the first time like you would feel like you're just in a whole new world but then you're also not like going back further seems seems like it'd be really dangerous and hard but the 1900s I don't know yeah just seems like the sweet spot well it's like weird too like I don't know when were a grandparents born somewhere in like the 1920s I think right yeah yeah yeah it's like they're still trying to figure out if pandas are reeled when like grandpa was born that's crazy you know that's weird yeah this wasn't that long ago yeah anyways they get to another village and it kind of sets a darker tone on the trip and it's called the naga people they had a ton of like human skulls like a pyramid of human skulls and they ask a hunter about it and uh the hunter says

that his most prized school is actually baby skulls because uh human babies those are the hardest to get because you like have to take out everyone like they're in the middle and you have to take out everyone before you can get there so that sets them on like that kind of brings the tone down a little and right after that they're like hey Herbert we're leaving you behind with these guys you're too slow yeah cut from the team like you're too slow we're not going to be able to find the panda at this pace Herbert's shocked by this and they leave a few guides with them and they're just like, we'll see you in half a year.

So Herbert's gone. Yeah. Ted Kermit, Jack, and Sudan and about 14 guides, men and female, continue their journey towards the intimidating Himalayas ahead. Probably kind of felt like the end of the fellowship of the ring when Frodo and Sam are just looking out

at all those mountains ahead. head of them that they know they have to climb. Yeah. And probably took turns carrying each other. As they're getting closer to the mountains, it starts snowing and it starts snowing really, really hard. They had no idea that the Himalaya crossing would be as intense as it was. Do you think Teddy was like, do you remember berries cream to his brother?

You think one of them kept being like, this is the furthest I've ever. Every single step. It's like, yes. Established. Thank you. They get to the mountains. They separate and Kermit's off on his own. And he sees what he thinks is a local deer.

But then he looks a little harder and sees it silhouetted against the rocks. It wasn't a deer, but it was a serro, which is a goat-anelope species. And Kermit knew about the animal because of Roy Chapman. Andrews in 1916, who was a famous naturalist and had killed one and given it to the museum. So like a lot of these mammals they're finding, it's like, yeah, we've heard of one person who saw this once. I've seen this once. Right?

Yeah. Yeah. So it's like really like exciting. He's able to shoot it. But here's the side story of Roy Andrews real quick. So his wife, Yvette Burrup Andrews. had also photographed this animal. And Roy Chapman Andrews was dismissive of her work.

Following their 1931 divorce, he was quoted saying, physically and intellectually, women may be equals of men for the work of exploration. But temperamentally, they are not. They do not stand up under the little daily annoyances that loom large in the trying work involved in an expedition, the trivialities, which men can ignore completely disturb them and prevent them from settling down too hard and contentious work. And his wife pretty, she's just like, she's mad.

We got divorced. She's like, I wasn't that bad. And then like the reason I think the author, who I should shout out, Nathalia Holt is the author of the book, right? And I think the reason she points this out is to kind of illustrate that Ted and Kermit were both like, for that time period, they're kind of feminist almost, right? Maybe not completely feminist, but their dad, their dad was like, women should be able to vote. They should be paid equally to men for the same work when he was president. And like, they kind of had a similar mindset, right?

So they had different philosophy than them. They even paid all their female guides the same as the men, which wasn't very common at that time. And by all the accounts from them, their women guides were just awesome. Early on the trip, they ran into a large group of bandits. And they had like a lot of money, a lot of guns. So it was like really scary. and the woman just like charged at these guys like right away just like charge it at him like headbutt style and scared them all off kind of unique at this time period in China too a lot of the women had triangle shaped feet there's a practice where they would like fold their footbinding yeah yeah because there's like one chinese princess who did it and then they were all like oh that's hot we should all do that to our daughters um but anyways back to

the main. So Kermit finds this sarah, right? And he shoots it, but he's like freezing cold. And then he has to hike up to where it's at. And he gets there and he's just like so exhausted he can't do a single thing. And he's like, I have to cut this thing open and like properly skin it right now or it's going to freeze overnight and be so much harder. And he just falls asleep. So then it freezes. and it's like rock solid in the morning and it takes them like 10 times longer to prepare it and like get the sample ready. And he's just like meets back up with his brother and Jack

and they're like freezing, suffering altitude sickness. They're starting to think they might actually freeze to death when they find a stone house that they didn't really even know was in that area, middle the Himalayas. They're just like nothing's going to be here. So they get to this house. They approached the front door and there's a monkey chained to the entrance. They write that is a miserable monkey and it lunged and bit Ted on the leg.

Oh, wow. Yeah. But it was miserable. Well, like, it was miserably, like, treated. Yeah. So they, like, get saved by this house and then they go into a town that's called the Lama Village. And they kind of have a great time. Kermit just loves.

buying stuff from like local markets so he's able to buy some art he gets like his favorite possession ever which was like this painting in a temple that was just like super nice and it was so nice he knew he couldn't ask for it but then he just kept staring at it and they're like hey you want this and he's like yeah like by all accounts just like all these villages were the most hospitable like excited to see them people in the world right so they kind of are able to like recruit cooped their strength and they're really enjoying their time because they've been in a shadow cast by their father who's larger than life and now they're in a spot in the world where like people didn't really care about their dad being Teddy Roosevelt and like they're getting judged

off their own actions which they appreciated so they leave the llama village and they have to climb their biggest peak yet they're freezing and they're This peak, they actually think might be the biggest peak in the world because they didn't really have Everest mapped out at this point. So they're like, man, we might have to climb over the biggest mountain in the world right now. Like they were wrong, but like that's where their heads at, you know. Half their donkeys run away, which are like carrying their meals and their paintings. So they're getting like super. Yeah.

And then like half their guides have to go chase them. So they're getting just super tired, low on energy, and they hire more guides just to walk ahead of them and pack the snow down extra so that they can get through because like all these guides are more used to the altitude and they're just sick and miserable, right? Yeah. So they're like punching through the snow and they're getting pretty impatient. It just starts feeling like more of a mountain climbing expedition than like being able to find a panda. And this is where, you know, famous quote your own movie, but it felt as if they were hunting the beast in the clouds, is what they say here.

Say the name of your movie and the movie face off. Law-abiding citizen. Lion King. I don't think that one happens. The taking of Pelham, one, two, three. So one night they're hiking through a snowstorm, They have severe altitude sickness and the guides are even getting sick. And they get to a point where like none of them can walk any further.

And they just like don't even pitch a camp. They just like roll out their mats and go to sleep. And they wake up to see the sun shining on a frozen waterfall that they had camped under. And they had no idea was there. But it's like really amazing because it's like, you know how ice is when the sun hits it. So it's like waking up to almost a diamond waterfall, you know, of spark. Yeah, that's really beautiful. So then they make it over.

They get to a mountain village called the Forge of Arrows. And they're just blown away by how, like, rich these villages seem because they're out in the middle of the mountains. And then everything's like really high functioning, really nice, really clean, like beautiful materials used on the buildings. and they had it prepared there to like stay with a Christian missionary family that was living in this town. But they get there and this guy's like kind of doesn't like the locals because none of them want to believe his message. And he's just complaining about him the whole time. So they prefer just staying with everyone else in the village and start like staying with all these Chinese families. And also they report saying is just the most attractive people ever.

Like everyone's over six. feet tall they're all really good looking and they're like kind of surprised by that too yeah i wouldn't expect them to be that tall huh but that's interesting huh it's altitude thing maybe less gravity they get stretched out a little bit all the way up there start getting like really discouraged and start feeling hopeless because they show everyone they see pictures of the panda from the pierre guy who like send in the samples they show the pelt picture to all these different people and no one's even heard of them or seen them or anything. They're just like, yeah, I don't know what you're talking about.

So they start even probably, they're like a thing even real, you know. But as they're in this town, Sudan, find some fresh bear tracks in the snow. And this is like their first bear in the whole trip. And at first he's like, oh, I got a panda. But then he looks at it a little closer and it's like, these are brown bear tracks. and they didn't really realize that brown bears lived in this area of the world. So it's still really exciting, but they're a little letdown because they found bear tracks and it's not even the right bear.

But yeah, it's kind of the first time that anyone had described drizzlies in the Himalayas. Yeah, Himalian brown bears. That's cool. How'd they come up with that name, Wes? I mean. They get a little bit more out of the mountains and they're walking like more through four. forest and they happen upon a large group of golden snub nose monkeys, which are really cool monkeys. They get really excited and they start just shooting.

That's like they're instinct all the time, right? And they get a little crazy with it and they end up shooting 12 monkeys. Oh, that's a good movie. And there's like a newborn baby monkey that's just like left alone now. and it's just crying and they instantly go from like excitement to like sincere regret and just feel evil. They wish they hadn't killed so many. The baby cries through the night and then dies in the morning and its cries haunt them the rest of the trip. Like what are we doing here just killing these animals, right?

Yeah. I think Herbert kind of put that into him too when he was just like, hey, don't just shoot these birds. This is cool, you know? Yeah. So, like, Ted actually kind of reprimanded their guides, too, because their guides weren't supposed to be shooting stuff, and their guides pulled out guns and started shooting at the monkeys, too. And I kind of think maybe gaslighting is invented right there with Ted

because it's like, dude, you just shot so many monkeys. You can't get mad at them for that, you know? No, I think it was gaslighting was happening. Remember when Pontius pilot was like, I washed my hands with it. It wasn't my fault. That was you guys. Yeah, you're right.

Cain and Abel. Gaslight probably. Yeah, that's true. Adam and Eve, but a little. Adam eats the apple and it's like, well, she did, so I had to. Right. So a few days later, they shoot two blue sheep, and they were like, felt good about that because they're starting to feel like this expedition

might end up being considered a failure. and that the museum won't fund anything else for them. So they're like, at least we can give them like these blue sheep, these saros that we shot, but they're kind of like trying to get whatever they can, right? Jack starts collecting a lot more smaller specimens. He's kind of thinking of Herbert, who they left behind, and he's just trying to fill that void.

He's trying to make himself as useful as possible. So he actually does a really good job, like collecting different like butterflies and insects and, like, documenting them. But they're getting disappointed that they haven't really even been close to a panda and might not get another chance. So they're contemplating moving towards a different unmapped area of China that had a reputation for people who wanted to kill and eat travelers. And this is the people of Yi. And they're warned by like various different missionaries and even locals like, hey, don't mess with these people of Yi. These guys are bad.

bad news but they're like i don't know where else to look for a panda you know we looked everywhere else so they split off from sudam and jack and tell them to like lead the caravan to a different town and we'll meet up with you and they're traveling and one of their guides comes running up to him excitedly and he's like one of those stories almost it reminds me of your tiger story where the guy's telling him about the tiger in the village. He, like, can't catch his breath, but he's, like, trying to tell him something really important. They're like, what?

And he just, like, can't catch his breath. But he eventually tells him there's a hunter in a sketchy town who claims to have seen a panda. So they get really excited. They go meet him, and they show him the picture. And he's like, yeah, I have one of those. And they're, like, no way. And he, they, like, meet up with them by his house.

and he brings this old panda skin and they can't believe it. And they're like super excited. But he didn't do a very expert job skinning the panda. It's not in very good condition. So they're like, we still got to get our own panda. Yeah. But at least like this is their first time even being remotely close to like seeing one. Right.

So at this point, they've documented 5,000 birds or they've described 5,000 birds 2,000 small mammals, 40 big mammals, and 19 new species, but still no... I was in any birds? Yeah. Huh. I think they're counting herberts. Okay. Yeah.

I looked at that different sources, too. Yeah. Okay. Oh, yeah. So at this point, even though they've been warned, they feel like they have no other choice but to just like go into these town of the people ye. and see what's up, see if they know about pandas, right? So they go there and most of the locals never ends up being kind of chill, honestly.

Like, the people are just normal. So they didn't really deserve that reputation. Yeah. But most of all the villagers were like, yeah, I know someone who saw one once type of thing. Like it's not like a regular animal that they see. It's pretty rare in that area. But Ted and Kermit are like, hey, we're going to pay all you guys to come help us find one. And they're all stoked.

They're like, yeah, let's do it. We're not going to find one anyways. And they're kind of deep down hoping they don't find one because it's a sacred animal to them. And they don't really want to just go kill one. But like it's an easy payday. They're all like, yeah, let's do this. We'll go walk around in the woods for a while with these two dorks, right? But to the village is surprised, they go to a bamboo forest and they find some panda scat.

And they're like, oh, shit, we might actually find one. And, like, Ted and Kermit are surprised because just everything they know about bears is like bears like mountains and valleys. It's like, why would the bear like bamboo? But they find the scat and they start tracing some actual panda tracks with like that third little thumbprint. So they're like, oh, this is a panda. and not third. I don't know why I said third, but that extra little thumbprint.

Fifth or maybe six. I think it's a sixth-looking digit. But it's because bears have five fingers, right? Yeah, they have five, yeah. Yeah. So then pandas have like an extra bone that is used to grip bamboo. Yeah.

And just so you know. Kind of a sixth thing. China's home to have 1,500 species of birds. So I don't know why they're saying that, but they're definitely I think they're saying they collected 5,000 birds Specimens like actual birds. Yeah, like a lot of them were the same species maybe. Yeah, exactly.

Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That is what it's saying. So thank you for clarifying that. And with the 2,000 small mammals, like 12 snub nose monkeys, there's like a bunch of like. Repeats. Yeah.

But anyway, so they start seeing scratch. on the bamboo and they're like, oh my gosh, we're actually like close to a panda. I can't believe this, right? And like the ye people are a little dismayed. They're like, oh, shoot. I hope they don't actually like kill a panda and curse our village, you know. But they're also like kind of excited. They half want to see one and half don't want to see one, right?

So they start getting close and it starts to snow. And like Ted and Kermit start cursing it because they're like, normally snow is good for tracking animals but they already had the tracks and the snow might cover it up yeah so they're like oh i can't believe our luck we're finally on a panda and it's starting to snow we're going to lose it and they start getting close but then they start hearing a strange clicking chirp and they're like what is that and one of the ye hunters move silently through the bamboo and he's 40 yards ahead and he signals and enthusiastically for Kermit to follow. They had separated Ted and Kermit at this point.

So Kermit silently approaches and he starts staring at this beautiful, like, picturesque landscape of a dragon spruce tree with blue pine needles surrounded by bamboo on both sides, right? And he's just staring at this. And it's like a beautiful setting. and then he's shocked when he sees a white head with black eyes pop out of a hole at the bottom of this tree. So at the bottom of this trunk was the cutest little white head with black eyes staring at them and they finally found it. Yeah.

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Kermit doesn't want to do anything without his brother Ted there. He feels like they've both earned us. So he's thinking of his dad as his inspiration as he impatiently waits for Ted to meet up with them. And he's getting worried. He's going to lose this panda and the bamboo because it leaves its whole. And he's like slowly following it. Ted eventually minutes later gets there, but probably felt like hours to Kermit, you know. And he's watching it in like kind of a detached reality.

He said it seemed very large and like an animal of a dream. So after thousands of miles, five months of searching, it seemed impossible that this bear was in front of them and like moving through the jungle just 30 feet away. Ted catches up to him and they both raise their rifles simultaneously. at the outline of this disappearing panda into the bamboo and fire. A lot of this is verbatim from the book right now too because I thought it was a really good description. But the poor animal is still waking up, now wounded, turned towards the Roosevelt's

and the brothers looked at the object of their biggest desires directly in the eyes. For a moment they saw themselves reflected in its dimming gaze. Then the bear floundered in the snow, surprising the brothers by showing no sign of aggression or challenge. They'd been told multiple times that the panda wasn't an animal to be feared, but they still didn't completely believe it. Permit explained, we used caution in following the trail, but, however, no special care was needed.

The hunters were in no danger whatsoever. It was only here at the end that the brothers realized that had been wrong and that the bear wasn't wild or wasn't the wild angry predator that they had expected it was like a peaceful animal just wanted to mind its own business but they get up close to it shoot again and end up killing the panda which is like very exciting for him but also they're kind of like man yeah yeah i like this part of the book kermit was quoted saying we knew it was ours and then the author goes on to to say, but he wasn't, he belonged to China, to the bamboo forest, and to the people who revered him.

He was not a prize to be won or a dream to be fulfilled, but the most peaceful creature in the forest was in mortal peril and his pursuers followed him mercies." So, I thought that was a good quote. For months, the brothers had pursued the panda across thousands of miles of ice, snow, jungle, wind, beaten rock of the Tibetan plateau. when they finally accomplished their goal, tracking and killing the bear, they turn despondent is the sensation of getting everything you wanted, then suddenly being unsure if it's what you truly desired in the first place.

Which is like a real thing, you know? Like a lot of times you have these goals that like, oh yeah, if I can just get this, I'll be happy. And I feel like a lot of sports fans kind of get this when it's like I just want to win the Super Bowl so bad and then their team wins and they're like, I guess I don't care. Yeah. Yeah. I'd like to see for myself if that's true. Confirm that if it ever happens for me. Like when they first saw it and his guide was like excitingly, excitedly telling him to come over, I could feel that like that feeling when you're

like on a safari or something and you see your guide get really excited. You know you're about to see something really cool. And it just, I know like they felt like they had to get a specimen to take home. But like it does feel like a big vibe drop when they shoot it. And then, like, you know. For sure. And like, to their credit, this is kind of how their dad was too, but they did at least part of the reason they did this entire thing was they did want to observe it in its natural

habitat before killing it because it felt like that added more of a description to the animal that like they felt like the world needed you know but it's still just like just don't kill it you know yeah yeah but at that time that's just kind of how you prove things like it exists not like they had like a camera or something to take a photo of it well they had camera they had a photo after they killed it they did oh after they yeah but they probably couldn't get one like in the field Ted and the person of Just tell the panda to sit there for 10 minutes While they do the little like flashbox thing

It's like I guess It's kind of a cool picture Oh wow Huh there we go So yeah They end up killing it and like Like I said it's kind of like This is what our life is for

And then when they kill it they're kind of like Now what Like I've felt that even a little bit with our travels Like I still love it but it's like I always wanted to see jaguars in the wild. And once I did, it's like, well, now what do I do? Yeah. It makes the world feel smaller, for sure.

So I thought Kermit had a funny, well, so Kermit had hunted lions and elephants in Africa with his dad, and he kind of had an idea that, like, someday he'll go back there. But after killing this panda, that part of him, like, completely died within him. He just no longer had any interest in killing him. killing exotic animals of the world, right? Yeah. He kind of became, he kind of just stopped becoming a game hunter for that time, or like an exotic animal hunter at that time.

And he had a really hard time describing his feeling of killing the panda in his field journal, but he ended up just saying simply, he's a gentleman. Interesting. That's just like that's what he settled on. think of me. Solid obituary. If that's said about me after I die, I'm like, you know, I'll take it. I think what he's saying is just like he feels like he killed almost like a

nice person maybe. Sure. So they had accustomed with all their bigger kills to eat the meat from the animals with like their guides and the villagers, but no one wanted anything to do with this panda meat. They're all like, no, we're not touching that. This is like bad. and Ted and Kermit felt the same actually

So the village wanted to sacrifice the sheep So Ted and Kermit paid to sacrifice the sheep instead And they like do all these prayers and stuff To like cleanse the village And like cleanse the area where they Took the pelt off the panda and everything Pretty bad deal for that sheep And it probably felt pretty cursed to the villagers

Because I think pretty soon after Mainland Chisholmars China kind of took over everything and they resisted that for a while. What did Ted say about the sheep? He is not a gentleman. Surprisingly ungentlemanly. But the purpose of their trip has been accomplished. They start making preparations to head home heroes.

They need to like go meet up with Herbert who's just been doing God knows what for the last five months out in the Chinese jungle. And, but, like, they're also just excited to get home and, like, confirm to the world that pandas exist. Before they left, too, like, Ted had kind of a failing marriage and Kermit had a failing business. And one of them had, like, a failing political career as well. They wanted to try to be president. And it's just like, no, you're not going to be. Your dad did too much conservation, you know. Yeah.

So Kermit finally gets like word from home and it's like, oh no, your business is way worse than you expected. Like you're about to be bankrupt. So he's like, I got to go home right away. He heads home earlier, which I didn't really understand why like they balls just don't go home. Right. Because it's like, if you can go home, go home, you did it. But I think Ted's like I got to regroup with everyone. So he like pretty immediately starts missing his.

brother, permits a little bit more confident of the outdoorsman of the two of them. So he starts feeling more lonely and gets really sick right after Kermit leaves. But he has to, like, meet up with his friends and Wes. You remember the guy's name? Yeah, Russell Handy. Yep, Russell Handy. Let's unpinned. Oh, it's Hendie.

Okay. Oh. Yeah. Okay, I misheard. I might have misspelled it. one of the two times because I do think I said handy before. Freudian slut. Anyways, so Russell left his newlywed wife to go meet up with his friends,

and he's super excited, like, oh, I can't believe they got one, you know. And he gets there, he's, like, floating an overflowing river right away to, like, get to this village, and they almost capsize, and he's just like, oh, this is more than I expected. This is crazy out here. And then he's just getting like feasted alive by mosquitoes, right? And he stops swatting him after relentlessly trying to. And one day he feels good. The next day he has malaria.

So he's taken to a hospital in the beautiful city of Viente, Vientine. I don't know how to say it. But while he's there, he gets incredibly ill and he's in a ton of agony. So he looks out from like several stories up of his hospital window. And he's looking at all these golden temples. And he decides to jump out of the window and fall to his den. Jeez. So there you go, Wes.

Bad story. I'm glad we unpinned him. Well, Wes always wants my stories to have someone die. Yeah. Good call. But, yeah. So eventually. Ted makes it home, Jack makes it home, Saddam makes it home, and they're all kind of legends back home now.

But Ted and Kermit's relationship really doesn't hold up very well. Ted wanted to be president, but then Franklin Delano Roosevelt kind of uses the Roosevelt name instead of Ted and becomes president. and Kermit uses that power to gain influence and Ted really holds it against him like you betrayed me like he betrayed me you betrayed me type of thing yeah classic brother stuff when one of them wants to be president and the other one you gotta take him out on a little rowboat on a lake Fredo style just six years later

the second panda enters American consciousness and in a very real way So Ruth Harkness smuggled a panda from China to America. Wow. And, yeah, just six years after the adventure. So it was like 1936. So her husband, Bill Harkness, was like, he was an explorer and he got all this funding, but then he died. So Ruth didn't really have exploration experience, but decided just to go.

And she actually went with Jack's younger brother, Quinton. And they get there and they were able to get a panda. I think she got to the pan. I think once they were able to, like, identify where pandas are at, that became a bit easier. They're not trumping around in the Himalayas anymore. Right. But, yeah, so she sold it to the Chicago Zoo for $9,000.

And before giving it to the zoo, she asked Ted and Kermit if they would come see the panda. So Ted went and, like, cradled the panda. panda and is holding it. And he just, he felt a lot of emotion from that because he felt bad still about the panda that they had killed. And one of the visitors lightheartedly asked Ted if he thought the cub would one day join the Roosevelt's trophies in the field museum, like if Ted would kill it. And Ted said, irritably, I'd just assume think of mounting my own son as this baby.

phrasing ted yeah yeah but we get it yeah yeah like the sentiment at least the panda died pretty quick it only lived it went to like the san francisco zoo in 1936 there's like this huge media frenzy wherever it went but they just didn't know how to take care of pandas are notoriously kind of difficult animals to keep in captivity so it died pretty much so it died pretty much quickly. Yeah. And then several different zoos and explorers tried to replicate the success that Harkness had with her panda.

So there's a few different like people smuggling pandas. Ruth actually went back and got a second cub named Me Me in 1938. But these pandas keep dying and then World War II kind of cut off access to China. So they stopped doing it for a little while. Then after the war, they start up for a sec. And then like 1949 to 1970, there's the Cold War freeze, where China is just like, we're done sending pandas. And actually Kermit kind of helped influence that as well.

He reached out to China as like, we got you got to do better conservation for these animals, which is a little hypocritical, but also like good on him for doing. in that. And that didn't change until 1972 when President Nixon went to China as like a goodwill gesture and they were like, hey, here's two pandas you can have. So they gave them Ling Ling Ling and Sing Sing who went to the

National Zoo in Washington, D.C. and became like the most popular things in America pretty much. And that's where pandas really started to gain fame again. And like 1980s to 1990s, China started giving out pandas as kind of like goodwill loans to different countries that they wanted to like build relationships with. Nowadays, there's kind of a loan model that they have to follow where it's like 10 year loans of pandas with annual fees around a million dollars for zoos to have them even. China famously took away pandas at the start of Trump's presidency and then like they've kind of to ease tensions given

a couple pandas back so DC Atlanta and San Diego I think currently do have pandas and that is why it does feel like more ownership than most any other animal there was a few pandas like in Mexico that were breeded successfully before any of these laws were put into place by China. So, like, those pandas actually were some of the only ones that didn't belong to China for a little period. But I think that lineage has died out. So now every panda essentially by law belongs to China. But that's just because of the way they do their loans when they give them out to zoos. and any baby panda's born, even if it is in America, China claims like that belongs to us.

And there were like panda fossils found in a few different countries, like Vietnam and a few others, but it's like they just, they weren't well described. So it's hard to know like when they died out from those countries or not. but essentially from when things were really like officially documented for the whole world, China was the only place that had. So a little bit of the aftermath here after the trip, right? So Saddam and Jack continued to go back to like China and on other trips and all these other expeditions were like hiring them to go because they knew where to go and what to do.

So they're like pretty successful. Ted and Kermit don't want anything to do with it. They're like that kind of made me feel bad. So I don't want to go back. And but Jack and Saddam are able to make a real living off of it. So World War II comes around. Well, okay. And before that, too, the book, I looked it up.

I'm not, I think they give him a little too much credit. But the book gives Kermit credit for saving the Galapagos tortoise after the adventure too. Him and Saddam did go to the Galapagos and they're seeing like all these ships, which we've talked about on Tooth and Claw before, go to these islands and take tortoises as like food for their journeys, right? And the tortoises are getting taken out. So Kermit and Saddam reach out to like these museums, these like, these like, zoos and they're like hey we got to save these tortoises so they get all these galapagos tortoises and like start

breeding them in new york and then once like the tortoise population gets really really depleted in galapagos they actually have breeding tortoises in new york that they're able to bring back which like really helped save some of the population that's cool like good for kermit he he's able to like make a for himself as a conservationist after the trip, which I think is really cool of him. But yeah, World War II starts. They all end up fighting in the war. Jack actually fights for China and for the United States. It's kind of crazy because they're probably in their like 50s by then, you know?

Yeah, they are. They're fighting in the war. Yeah. More like Jack old, right? And then really cool was Ted. Ted was like he had like all these heart conditions. He had a cane and he was on the beach at Normandy. And he like stormed Utah Beach and like led troops and was just like really inspiring to everyone.

Yeah. So he like did the beach at Normandy and then like died in a truck five days later of a heart attack. Wow. Oh, wow. Yeah, because like he shouldn't have been there but he just refused not to be. Kermit became like a really bad alcoholic. So he wanted to join the war but was unfit. And he even like used a connection to Winston Churchill to get reinstated.

And then he like failed again because he's drinking too much. So they just put him on a base in Alaska and he took his own life there. Yeah. Of all of them, Jack was the most decorated just because he was able to speak Chinese and like make a lot. of connections for the army though 15 years younger too he was fighting for two different armies that's a pretty good way to get hella medals and stuff it's true he's racking up his stats i did have a few panda facts we've mentioned it before but they have like a real narrow fertility window so it's like 24 to 72 hours a year in the spring and women get really vocal to you

during when they're like the females ready to go because it's like hey get on this right now because it's just a few hours a year that I'm ready you know and they can do the delayed implantation which we've talked about before but it's just like they can wait until they're healthy to have their babies twins are common but normally just one of the twins survive and the newborns are really really astonishingly small relative to their mothers about one 900th of the mother's body weight when they're born. Which is pretty typical in bears, yeah. And that's a lot of why it took so long for them to kind of figure out zoo breeding for pandas.

I think they have gotten a lot better at it now, but it makes sense why it's so hard to breed them and why they died in captivity. Yeah. And then just evolutionarily, just because there are people out there, now that think they're created. But they split off from other bears around 19 to 22 million years ago, making them one of the earliest diverging branches of bear lineage is still alive today. They have that false thumb, which is just a bone that they use to like help them drip

bamboo stocks. They still have a carnivore digestive system, which is really interesting. So it's kind of more like an animal that chew, a cold. carnivore animal that chose to, like, do a vegetarian diet, but still has, like, the system that could eat meat. But, yeah, it makes them actually pretty inefficient at digesting bamboo. And that's why they have to eat 20 to 40 pounds of it a day. Yeah, and why they poop, like, 20 times a day, too.

But, yeah, they still have the meat gene, sort of. So, like, they just kind of lost the gene for tasting. sweetness relevant to like some meats that like drives them to seek meat. Interesting that the Chinese scientists invented them to be that way. What were the scientists thinking? Kind of like sloths, they have a really slow metabolism, which kind of helps them to be able to survive on bamboo. And I just wanted to close by saying just how they are today.

So there's probably going to be a new study here. soon, but as of like 2015, there was just under 2,000 wild pandas. And they are like trying to grow that population, but habitat loss has made it hard to get too much higher than 2000. And most of them are like in nature preserves and like conservation areas, which we get to go see one of those, which will be pretty awesome. but about 2,000 wild pandas today and they all live in high altitude bamboo forest. Cool.

Yeah, if we get really, really lucky, we'll see a wild one, but not likely. Yeah. All right. Any questions for me? No, sir. Cool. Well, should we get to categories? Let's do it.

Okay. All right. So I think because Ted and Kermit were kind of nepo babies, but, made a name for themselves. Let's just do rapid fire some Nepo babies that you like. Yeah, I like Jack Quaid. That was my

first one listed too. I like him. I like him quite a bit. Domhall Gleason. He's like the bad guy in the new Star Wars movies. He's Brendan Gleason's son. Jared Harris. Richard Harris' son. Incredible actor. Good.

Fiona Duref. Brad Dorif's daughter. In the pit. Yeah, she's doing good work. And I like Wyatt Russell, Kurt Russell's son. Even though I don't think he's a great actor, I enjoy seeing him in movies. So, yeah. He's always a Bob.

Some, somehow, he gets typecast as Bob's. I really like him and everybody wants some and that one movie, Overlord. Do you guys remember Overlord? Yeah. Yeah, he was good in that. Oh, yeah. Huh. Yeah, I saw that before I even really.

know who knew who that was yeah daniel really hated him in disclosure day oh i haven't seen that still yeah i don't know if i'm going oh i should shout out to uh my girlfriend daniel she recommended this book to me so thanks daniel hell yeah daniel what a what a gal uh well you got to say nick cage west you got to get true he's coppola's nephew right really any of the coplas like sophia jason shortsman there's a whole bevy of them that zoy cravitz is a good one zoy cravitz lisa man Ronnie Ann Bryce James. Ken Griffey Jr. Michael Douglas.

Oh, Robert Downey Jr.? Speaking of juniors. Charlie Sheen. Something that you guys discovered or described and then shared with your friend group or family.

Just something that you feel like you found and then shared with the world. Mine I did with Wes, but I have the raid. and I just we saw that movie like it's first time playing and I've been talking about it the rest of my life Oh, you are the one that gave me the raid. So I appreciate that. Shout out Jeff, honestly. I don't know if I've Why this is the first thing that came to mind, but mayonnaise on hot dogs really to varied results. Some people really don't like it. Some people were like, hey, that was not bad. Huh. Yeah, I'm trying to think if I've ever had mayonnaise on a hot dog. I guess maybe I'll discover that because, because of you describing it to me.

I'll describe it. The one I thought of is our whale shark spot in Mexico. Oh, that's a good one. Yeah, I found it from a John Steinbeck book and happened to find it at the same time as my friend Cass. And then a lot of our friends and family have gone there because of that. What's your father's legacy? I think, like, me and Jeff have the same dad.

And I think if I were to say what his legacy was, I would probably say how helpful he is. Like everyone is constant. Like there's so many people in Missoula who rely on my dad to help him with stuff. And he just will always say yes and always show up and like be a good time too. He's not going to like be grumpy about it or anything. And I think he's probably one of the most helpful people I've ever met in my life. So that I think is his lasting legacy.

That's what I had to. I'd say you guys that his legacy is going to be pious. He's like a pie guy too. Yeah. Yeah. If people are looking through the annals of history and Gil's name pops up, it's going to be like a pie contest or something. Yeah. Instead of like, this guy helped me with my lawnmower.

No. That is not the legacy. It's the pie. Someone on Twitter said, like, Trump always stands like he just smells a freshly baked pie and I can't un-sue it. Yeah. It's very true. Yeah. Kind of like when cartoon characters, they like get lifted up.

by the butt and like flow towards the pie. My dad will be, it'll be his probably his collegiate swimming career. Like he was a world class swimmer. He's pretty, he's like noticeably tall. He's not like so tall that it's like, he's the tallest person I've ever seen in my entire life, Mike.

That's shocking to me. But I guess for Wes, that'll be his legacy. No, yeah, he was, his collegiate swimming, huh? Yeah, he was invited to the Olympic trials a couple of times. I don't, I,

He claims he probably almost certainly wouldn't have qualified for the team, but I like to say otherwise. Yeah. He's probably the oldest guy I know that's named Chris. Oh, interesting. Yeah, so I'll remember for that too. Christopher Columbus, that guy. Ooh, that's a good point. He's a lot older.

Yeah, all right. The director, I mean. All right, well, I guess I'll never remember your dad for anything but being tall. Crispin Glover. And not getting into the Olympics. Favorite panda that we've never mentioned on the podcast before. I'm going to go with the in Moulon when they dress up in the panda costume. There's a part in that movie that makes me laugh.

I don't know why, but the visual image of it clambering up into the tree. It's like a couple of guys in a panda costume. It's just so funny to me. I can't remember that. I need to watch it. I can't remember what I picked in our other panda episode, which I think was a subscriber episode that Mike did. I think we did Kung Fu Panda. Probably.

I'm going to pick the World Wildlife Fund logo. That's why I add action. Really? I don't always, like sometimes I have issues with them because I think they're like too big of an entity at this point. But man, that logo, it just slaps. Like, it's such a good logo. Yeah. We're on the same wavelength, Jeff.

All right. Let's do something from the 1920s. Just give me one other thing that happened in 1920s. You guys ever hear the straw hat riot? No. All right. So I learned about this because of this question from Jeff. In the 1920s, there was this rule that in like the U.S.

that you weren't supposed to wear a straw hat after like September 15th because they were considered like summer hats. And I'm like they were, they're not like what you're picturing as a straw hat. Like they were nice straw hats. But you were not supposed to wear them after September 15. And in 1922, this rule became so exaggerated that there was riots because kids started like attacking people that were wearing straw hats around September 15th. They actually started a couple days early and like sent people to the hospital because they were wearing straw hats. And there was like a multi like a 10 day riot that ensued because of people wearing straw hats after September 15th.

So it's the straw hat riots. pretty weird man yeah yeah that's crazy yeah that's why those things still kind of last today like the don't wear white after labor day yeah yeah except you won't get hospitalized if you do it oh not if I see you I'm putting you in the hospital if you're wearing white what a faux paw a fashion faux pa I'm going with basically just like Buster Keaton's filmography like my favorite of his movies all happened the 20s Sherlock Jr., the general, all bangers.

Women's right to vote, I think, happened. Yeah. In 1920? Suffragettes. Is it the 19th amendment? Mm-hmm. You know, so historians will have to check me on that, but I think it's the 19th. Yeah.

I have kind of a dark one, but it's one I think we should have learned about in school. And I think I learned about it from like Andre Agu Dala, the basketball player. But the Tulsa Race Massacre in 1921, I guess there's like a, Tulsa, Oklahoma had like a whole thriving black community and is even like nicknamed Black Wall Street. And like the higher ups just were like, this can't happen and took the whole thing out. Yeah. It's just like, we should probably learn about that. I learned about it from the Watchman series.

Like I didn't know that existed either. And then it featured like pretty prominently in that series. Yeah. Yeah. I have a category for you, Jeff. If there's one player on your team with the game on the line, Who are you trusting to take the big shot? Eagle Dahlia!

Give me. Oh, man. Shout out Max. Mac Kellerman, what a legend. I want to just ask to how much you like them? Love. Love pandas. 10 out of my list.

They're bare. They got to get a 10 out of 10 for me. I think they're maybe like the cutest animal in the world, like as adults even. You know, they're just... Especially. Such a cool animal. Yeah. Now, I think cubs are cuter than adults, but...

Really? I think they're tough. That's a close one. I think they just get cuter, the older they get. Yeah. I'm going to give them nine. They're my second favorite bear, but... I don't know.

What's your first favorite? Am I having it? Polar. For me, it's like them, koalasas and red pandas are the three animals that get cuter. the older they get. But I'm going to give them 10. And yeah, I think they're like my eighth, yeah, they're my eighth favorite animal.

Okay. Wow, they're top 10 animal. That's cool. Yeah. So I'm excited to see them in China. And thank you everyone for listening to me. Talk about my book I read. Good job, Jeff.

What's your, you have one more resolution, right? Or do you do that, not nuke anyone? Or was that last year? That was last year. So I'm two for two years in a row. Congrats on that one, too. Yeah. He's doing better than me.

All right. All right. We'll see you guys. All right. Thanks, everyone. Love you. Love you too. See ya.

Bye.