Tooth & Claw: True Stories of Animal Attacks - The Ghost Grizzlies of Colorado: Part 2

Episode Date: December 8, 2025

Wes tells the tale of a man who had one final grizzly bear attack before they disappeared from Colorado altogether. Watch here: https://youtu.be/vgQO1ueH9to ~~ Aura Frames: Exclusive $35 off Carver Mat at https://on.auraframes.com/TOOTH Promo Code TOOTH Miracle Brand: Upgrade your sleep with Miracle Made! Go to https://trymiracle.com/TOOTH and use the code TOOTH to claim your FREE 3 PIECE TOWEL SET and SAVE over 40% OFF. ButcherBox: As an exclusive offer, our listeners can get free steak in every box for a year PLUS $20 off your first box when you go to http://ButcherBox.com/TOOTH Rocket Money: Cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money. Go to http://rocketmoney.com/claw today.  Ollie Pet Food: Take the guesswork out of your dog's well-being. Go to http://ollie.com/tooth and use code tooth to get 60% off your first box! ~~ To advertise on the show, contact us! Patreon - https://www.patreon.com/c/toothandclawpodcast ~~ Tooth & Claw is brought to you by QCODE. Support the show and get access to an extensive library of exclusive episodes like this by supporting the show on Patreon or joining the Grizzly Club on Apple Podcasts. For the latest updates on the show and all things wildlife, follow us at toothandclawpod.com and social:  Instagram: @ToothandClawPodcast Twitter: @ToothandClawPod Wes: @GrizKid Jeff: @jefe_larson Mike: @mikey3ds Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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K-U-O-W in Seattle and Chris Morgan Wildlife. New episodes available every Tuesday, wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Tooth and Claw Podcast. This is a part two episode, so you don't need too much of an introduction. We have our bear biologist, West Larson. I'm his younger brother, Jeff Larson. And we have Mike Smith, who thanks for driving out to Montana,

just to watch The Lord of the Rings and then driving back to Utah. My pleasure. Thanks, Mike. Yeah. And there's a fun old time. I slept through the entire third movie again. Kind of my new tradition. I dozed off a little bit. I can't hang for all three in a row.

As Jeff mentioned, this is part two of a two-parter, Ghost Grizzlies of Colorado. But we do have a couple things we got to talk about before we start the story. First of all, there has been a lot of bear stuff in the news lately. There's been a lot of news coming out of Japan that we're definitely going to talk about soon. And then one that I wanted to talk about on today's episode is there's a particularly scary attack in British Columbia on a group of 11 people, most of them children. Two of those people were critically injured by this bear, a grizzly with cubs, and two were seriously injured. So, you know, we talk about grizzly attacks a lot on this podcast. We're going to talk about one today.

and there are things you can do to prevent them or to really make yourself a lot safer, but those things aren't foolproof. So things like being in groups, there are a couple data points out there of people being attacked in groups or using bear spray. And, you know, these people did just about everything right, and they still had a terrible experience, and that's just part of living in Grizzly country. But we definitely are thinking of them, our hearts go out to them. Because it's in British Columbia, the board that I sit on the Grizzly Bear Foundation, they've

doing a lot of work to get messaging out to contribute to do whatever they can to help. So I've been helping with those decisions. And yeah, a really sad attack, one that we'll talk about more in our news episode, but just wanted to bring it up because a lot of people have mentioned it. Yeah, it's tough. Tough to hear. We'll link the GoFundMe in our notes. And then later I'm going to do a game that might make me have to chip in some money to that

one, which I would love to do anyway. And then a quick correction corner. in our last episode, I kind of, I fell prey to a thing that a lot of people do, which is talking about some of these indigenous tribes in kind of the past tense, even though they're still around. And I talked a lot about the Ute people and their beliefs about grizzly bears and how much of huge respect they have for grizzly bears. And I used a lot of past tense. Someone rightfully called us out on it.

And I did want to bring it up because they are a people that are still very much involved in conservation where they live. and tribal conservation groups do a lot of really impressive work. So just so everyone knows, we do understand that. And sorry that I did something that a lot of people do. That doesn't make it right. So, yeah. Anything else we need to correct?

Mom says she didn't give out her Patreon account to people. Okay. Vindication for mom. Yeah. I was trying to make her sound generous, you know. Yeah. There's just no, no making her happy, I guess. She's like Mike with TSA workers.

Incredibly selfish. Yeah. Me and, me and lasagna, more like, I'm not giving that out to anybody. You kidding me? That's the best-looking lasagna ever. Jeff, you have no idea how good that was on it was. I loved your mom. All right, are you guys ready for part two of Ghost Grizzlies of Colorado?

Yes. It doesn't sound like you guys are ready at all. I was ready like two weeks ago. This has been like a tantric two-parter for me. I've just been standing on that edge. Just edging. Yeah, we did kind of have a week break. So again, one of the main sources that I use for this series is this book,

Ghost Grizzlies by David Peterson. Does the Great Bear Still Haunt Colorado? It's a great book that goes through the history of Grizzlies in Colorado and their potential future. It talks a lot about the attack we're going to talk about today. I also used a lot of online resources. A little bit of a misleading title, though. Yeah. Yeah, they're not actual ghosts.

He was trying to get some people who care more about ghosts than wildlife to read his book, too. And we're using it, too, to get people to listen to these episodes. It's also a weird title because it's just a yes or no question. So he could just say yes and be done with it. Or no. Just one word. That's true. That looked like there are a lot of pages left to go.

There are a lot of words. We called it, we called it Ghost Grizzlies, huh? We're guilty of the same thing. Yeah. Yeah. We're sensationalizers. Well, it starts out, this ghost was following a beautiful young woman, and the ghost is a bear. That's, sure.

That's scary. I just want to cover our bases. Yeah, we're covered now. The other article that I used pretty extensively was from outdoor life. It was written by our victim today. And that article is called I Killed the Last Grizzly in Colorado by Ed Wiseman. Spoiler. Big spoiler.

Mike, Paranormal activity, but the ghost is a bear? I don't think you'd make a difference. Paranormal activity is not a ghost, guys. It's a demon, and that's what makes it scary. Demons can't be ghosts? I don't think so. I think they're different. Can bears be demons?

No, I don't think they interlack. Overlap. No, or overlap, inner lap. Boy, we're off to a rough start. I wish I were interlap. So, a quick recap from... The girl is talking about. Yeah, just walking through the...

For his lap. That made her sound really pretty. Her lap, at least. Oh, sitting in a lap is such a nice thing. Quick recap. So like we talked about, there's a great respect among indigenous people, and there still is, for grizzly bears for a lot of other wildlife in this area. But then once settlers arrived, there's a full-on war on Grizzlies. That war was essentially a federal undertaking in the early mid-1900s. And the last, in quotation mark, grizzlies in Colorado, were reported to have been killed in the early 1950s. but even after those bears were killed, multiple reports would trickle in from really reputable sources that they had seen grizzlies in the Colorado Rockies, especially in the San Juan Mountains.

Kind of crazy, our grandparents were alive when there was grizzlies in Colorado. I know, and like Arizona and some other places, too. In 1979, Ed Wiseman was the kind of mountain man you'd probably see in a Hollywood movie. years and years outside spent around the elements had made him look older than his 46 years, but they also made him stronger and more fit than men 20 years younger than him. He's born in the little town of Pueblo, Colorado in 1933, and he had explored and guided in the San Juan Mountains for pretty much his entire life. After college and a year of graduate school, Ed decided to join the military for two years in the late 50s,

and then he started work with the Colorado Division of Wildlife and serving. as a ranch manager for an experimental wildlife station for three years. So in 1960, and you might be wondering what an experimental wildlife station is, that would be like a place where they're kind of testing what effects that ranching might have on wildlife and vice versa. I'm guessing that's what he was working at. In 1962, he quit work for the Colorado government and started working as a pig and poultry farmer, which is essentially what I'm doing these days, in the San Luis Valley,

between the San Juan Mountains and Sangrii decreased those, which is actually the valley that Jesse lived in and worked in when me and her first started hanging out. Jeff, you've been there to that valley. Yeah. Sure. If you say it so. Yep, you've been there, I promise.

We did some bison stuff there together. During that time, Ed had also started guiding people. A little vague there. I remember that. Putting our hands up there privates. No. No, we actually didn't do that part. We kind of just chased him into shoots.

Yeah, we did chase them into shoots. Yeah, that was pretty much. Oh, interesting. Yeah. What did you do? Were you on horseback? No, I had to, like, run a bunch of bison on the ground. Oh, weird.

It was a little, it was intimidating. But they're, yeah, they're ranch bison. They're a little different. Usually dogs do that, right? I don't know. I don't think so. Maybe, sure. Well, you don't think I got that dog in me?

I think you do. I was curious. about Wes. Less is more of a cat guy. He's got that cat in. I do love both. Cats are scarier than dogs. Both of them.

Both. A tiger. During that time, Ed had also started guiding people on hunts in the San Juan's. Those hunts often focused on elk, but he would also take people hunting for black bear and other critters. And by all accounts, he was a pretty professional and successful guide. One of those people that pretty much everything you read about him from his friends, his family, his acquaintances, was overwhelmingly positive.

So really just when people talk about Ed Wiseman, they do it in the fondest terms, from what I've learned, at least in my research. In early September of 1979, Ed is out archery hunting on horseback in the San Juan's with the client when a big, brown-colored bear runs out of the tree line and stops on a dead snag and glares at these two men on horseback.

Ed remembers looking at this bear and thinking it looked strange for a black bear, but that he had heard tales of 500-pound black bears in the San Juan's, and he had never seen one, and that was probably just what he was looking at. The bear ran away, these two men continue on their hunt, and at the time, Ed had dismissed this bear

as simply an odd-looking, huge black bear, but two weeks later, he would meet up with the same bear in that same general area, and he would realize just how wrong he had been. Wow. So on September 23rd, 19th, In 1779, Ed was out guiding with four different clients, all of them from Kansas. They'd been hunting elk for the better.

I think at least two of them were related, but. They'd been out hunting elk for the better part of a week, and the 23rd of September was the last day of the archery season. And one of the men, 25-year-old Mike Niederey, hadn't seen any elk all week. So Ed had decided that he would personally guide Mike that day and that they would ride about 11 miles to an area where he pretty much always saw some elk. Jeff, we rode horses for like 20-something miles this summer. 11 miles on a horse. That's not nothing, right?

Not nothing. No, you feel it. Yeah. In your knees. In your knees. Rump. Other places, too. A little saddle sore.

Yeah. So they leave after breakfast and they start riding towards. Ed's honey hole on a particularly beautiful warm bluebird day in the San Juan's. And when they get to Ed's spot around 2 p.m., they tie up the horses and they decide to hunt on foot with the men splitting up to cover more ground. Oh, if you've ever seen a horror movie before, is that a good idea, Mike? No, don't. No, don't do it.

Stop. Get help. Split up to cover more ground. I thought you meant tying up horses. Don't do that either, ever. In horror movies, they normally get out of their ties. Horses. Like when you tie someone run off.

Yeah. Sure. Oh, the people do. Yeah. So I'm guessing the horses are about to escape. They're all tied up, but they're about to get out. Mike, did you and your siblings ever tie each other up? No.

I don't think that's the thing we did. We did that a lot in our family, like a lot of tying up, like seeing how long we could get the person before they, like, got untied. Weird. Once, I guess once my dad had tied Cyrus up, like, really bad and then hung him from the doorknob, and someone came over to visit and they saw him. Oh, gosh. What is going on? He's like, I promised it doesn't, this isn't what it looks like.

It was like, we would ask our dad, please tie us up. Oh, okay. And we wanted to try to get out of the ties. Yeah. Odd proclivities in the Larson household. If you ever try to tie us up. up. We'll get out. Okay.

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So Ed's working through the meadows in the timber, and he's looking for Mike. he's expecting him to see him also working along the edges of some nearby meadows, but he never sees him. So Ed walks back to where they'd tied up the horses to wait for Mike, but he never appears. They're hunting in a small flat area that was surrounded by steep ridges, and there really weren't too many places that they could go. So Ed was really confident he would bump into Mike at some point, and he just decides to continue hunting and looking for elk. And he's not hunting to shoot an elk, he's just hunting to find them so he can put Mike on.

to them because he really wants his client to get an elk. What he didn't know was that Mike had already bumped into another inhabitant of that area where they were hunting. Mike had been quietly moving through the timber when he saw a large, tanish-brown shape on the ground that made his heartbeat really fast. After hunting elk for a week and seeing nothing, just about every large shape in the woods was starting to look like an elk. but as Mike raised his bow and looked closer at the large shape on the ground. He realized he wasn't looking at an elk, but a large sleeping bear. He watched the bear take in a few deep breaths on its daybed,

and then he quietly backtracked down the canyon he had come up and scrambled up the steep ridge, careful not to disturb this huge bear. He made a mental note that when he found Ed, he would warn his hunting companion to avoid that area. How many different things is he confusing for elk at this? I will say like, a, Big deer can look like an elk.

I guess, yeah, horse, a big bear. A stump. You ever see a stump, Mike? They can sure look like elk. Let me tell you. Not in my experience, but I'm not a stumper. I'm not a l. You need to spend some more time in the mountains, I guess.

As he walked away, the gentle wind ruffled through his clothes, covered in the sweat of a whole week of hunting and steep mountains, and the breeze carried that scent down the canyon toward the nose of the dozing bear. This was no 500-pound black bear, though. This was the last grizzly bear in all of Colorado. And as the scent from this intruder caught in the nostrils of this old female grizzly with worn down and broken teeth, she woke up from her nap and she snapped to attention. Just seconds ago she'd been slumbering peacefully, but now she was ready to fight if necessary.

Ed, meanwhile, had been searching for Mike, and he had actually passed below the other hunter as he walked up the canyon that Mike had been quietly trying to escape. It was about 5 p.m. He was rounding a bend with his compound bow at his side when he heard a growl on the other side of the small flat that was dotted with pine trees. His blood ran cold and Ed looked up to see a 400-pound grizzly bear about 25 meters away in a full charge.

So Ed immediately realizes two things. First, this bear is cornered. by a steep incline on one side, a cliff drop off on the other side, and a rock wall behind it. So he'd given it no other good option to escape aside from the direction he had come in. Second, this is no black bear. He was staring at the animal that he had heard all of the old-timers talk about his entire life, but that had been wiped out of existence in Colorado while he was in college. He was being charged by a grizzly bear.

And he didn't see it as an elk. He did not think it was an elk. It wasn't just like a stump rolling down the hill. The stump, that does not look like in Colorado. Now that I think about it. They can look like elk. A stump look like a huge elk? I don't know.

Ed yelled, but the bear was locked in and focused and kept charging toward him. She never broke her charge to stand or to bluff, but came straight in. Ed didn't even have time to knock an arrow in his bow or grab his hunting. knife in his backpack, and all he managed to do was get his bow in between him and the bear, kind of like a shield, by the time she was a few feet from him. He shoved it toward the bear's face, but she charged right through and slammed into Ed at full speed, flinging him to the ground, and his bow and arrows scattered all over the forest litter. Damn. Like Miles Garrett. Just like Miles Garrett.

Oh, I was about to say that. I'll delete it for my notes. Yeah. Who smiles Garrett? A football player. Football guy. Just runs people over. Yeah. And he plays for the Browns? Yeah.

What are the chances? Love that guy. Brown bears. Brown bears. So this guy's bow is all over the forest floor at this point. His bow and arrows have scattered, yes. And an interesting thing about this mawling is at this point, Ed reports his mind from going more like a video, like a movie playing. to like a series of snapshots.

So when he looks back on this, he remembers these certain snapshots very clearly, but he can't like replay the whole video, if that makes sense. But he was able to piece it together. When the bear first made contact with him, he immediately rolled into the fetal position, curling into a ball

and doing his best to protect his neck and his vitals. And this at the time was the general information of what was given to people when it came to bear attacks. curl up into a ball and play dead is what they said. And that can work, but if the bear is enraged enough, which I think is the case with this bear, or if it's hungry, you're in a really bad situation then. So he also had his backpack still on his back,

and he had this fleeting hope that his pack would protect him enough that he would be able to survive this mawling. Bite the knife. Bite the knife. Yeah, you never know. Or maybe if you had like a stick of dynamite in there, you know? Yeah. The bear would bite that.

Would that blow up if a bear? Probably not, right? Definitely not. Okay. I don't know how that works. Doesn't nitroglycerin explode like in sorcerer? It tastes really bad. Yeah, it would taste terrible.

That's true. So this bear almost immediately starts tearing into his lower right leg, and it's ripping and tearing at it with its mouth. It shakes Ed's entire body like a dog with a toy. and I've really been thinking hard to come up with a better analogy than a dog with a rag doll or dog with a toy, but there just really isn't a better one. So I challenge our listeners to come up with something better than that. Maybe just being shaken through the air quickly.

A rhythmic gymnast with a ribbon? Sure. That's too graceful, though. That's like too, I don't know. It has to be like violent. Sure. Okay. A bad one.

Ed wasn't feeling any pain, but as the bear shook him by his leg on the ground, He does remember the sensation of the skin on his leg, getting very, very, very tight, and then the feeling and the sound of that skin ripping and tearing from this immense pressure, which is a detail I've never heard before from victims of, like, really tight skin, and then it gets so tight that it rips open

because this bear was putting so much pressure on it. Periodically, the bear would drag at a short distance, and then it would bite at his leg again. It's tearing his flesh, and it essentially turns his whole leg from knee down to his ankle into hamburger. A raveor with a glow stick. Yeah. An iceberg with a Titanic.

Oh. West. Just one collision and then sinking. I guess that's more the initial impact. Yeah. Yeah. I think let's keep workshopping that. Miles Garrett with Mason Rudolph.

Sure. Why don't you guys just put a pin in that, though? So you can hear the rest of the story. Okay, I just think about it. You don't know it? I don't. Oh, man. So the bear then drops Ed's leg, quickly bites into his right shoulder twice.

And when it does this, it's not ripping or tearing, but it's just delivering these deep, quick, penetrating bites. And in fact, these bites were so deep that later doctors would find puncture wounds that went completely through his shoulder. Wow. Yeah, and this is a big guy. I mean, he's not like... What does that mean? It means they could have like poked their finger all the way through these holes from one side to the other if they had a super long finger. Bear teeth can be that long?

The two canines met. Yeah, and they'd probably compress the shoulder enough. It then released its shoulder and started working on his leg again. And that's something I want people to remember about bear attacks. I think in popular media we hear a lot about their claws and them like swatting someone and killing them or raking them with their claws. But really the most dangerous thing when it comes to a grizzly bear is its mouth. They can do some pretty big injuries with their claws, but the true damage that a bear is going to do is going to be with its mouth and its weight.

Those are the two, like, biggest tools that they really have. Okay. What are your guys' biggest tools? I was thinking of Louis Suarez when he said, the biggest tools is his mouth. Who's Louis Swares? He's that like soccer that would like bite people in the World Cup. You remember him?

No. From like Uruguay. I remember Zadain headbutting that guy. Headbutt. Yeah. Huh. My biggest tool is my brain. I agree with that.

Your brain just works differently, Jeff, and in a great, beautiful way, in my opinion. I think it's a great tool. Thanks. Yeah. All right. this whole time Ed had been hoping that playing dead would be enough to stop this attack but as the bear started biting his shoulder again he realized that there's a good chance he was going to die and that he needed to fight back

as this thought came to his mind his eyes caught his spilled quiver of arrows and he noticed one of the arrows was lying within reach with the broadhead pointing toward the bear so when we talk about a broadhead these arrows that hunters often use with compound bows. It'll be an aluminum shaft, and then a broadhead arrow has multiple cutting blades. So it'll either have like just a flat one with two cutting blades, or there'll be like another arrowhead set into it, so there's four sides. And that's what this arrow looks like.

It has four different cutting edges, razor sharp. And if you shoot an elk or something with this, that bow is going to be powerful enough that the arrow is going to go straight through. You're like aiming for the lungs or the heart and it's going to go straight through unless it hits a big bony plate. Yeah, just like a bear tooth in the shoulder. Exactly. Instinctively, he grabs this arrow in one motion. He rolls over onto his back and he brings the arrow up as hard as he could, slamming it into the bear's neck.

This arrow was an aluminum broadhead again with four razor sharp cutting edges. And Ed slams it into the bear's throat so hard that he snaps the arrow in half. But this bear doesn't even flinch. It just releases his shoulder and starts biting his mangled leg again. That'd be like when Matt Barnes did the ball fake in Kobe's face, and Kobe didn't flinch. But Matt Barnes actually threw the ball. And Kobe still didn't flinch. So this part of the arrow is just in the bear's neck now?

No, so, yeah, so it is. The arrow broke in half and the front half of the arrow, the pointy end, is stuck in the bear's neck. And this is an aluminum arrow that he broke in half. So he, like, used some real force, and he didn't even realize that he had broken it when he did this. And then he also doesn't really remember pulling the arrow out of the bear, but he does remember a gush of blood coming out of its throat, and him suddenly holding this broken half arrow in his left hand again, while the bear is biting his right hand and then moves down to his left leg.

And then again... So he pulls the arrow out. He pulls it out of the bear, And now it's just, he's lost one of the broadheads in there. So it's just a two cutting edges now, like a typical arrow. And he's holding in his hand. And again, he doesn't really remember doing this. But suddenly he's slamming the broken arrow into the bear again,

this time further down on its body closer to its heart. And Wes is saying, he's saying aluminum for all you. Aluminium. Yeah, if you live in the UK, aluminum. Jeff, will you say aluminum? You can do aluminum. Okay. That's my hardest word, aluminum.

No, come on. You can do it. Aluminum. There you go. Aluminum. Nailed it. Now, say, your hardest word is that island archipelago in Norway. It's Falbar.

I just forget that one, but it's not hard to say. It's Aragon. Yeah. Haragor. We got in like six bites about that. They don't. All right. They did.

Why would they? You can think about that. We'll talk later. Because that's how it sounds like that story right now. Yeah. All right. All right. So the aluminum's broke.

Yes. And he has pulled the arrow out. He slammed it back into the bear. He doesn't even really remember the second stab with the arrow. But he does remember seeing the arrow sticking out of the bear. And then a gush of blood from this old bear as she steps over him and walks a few yards to a large log. And then this old bear, the last guardian of the mountains in Colorado, laid down on a large log, put her left paw under her head, turned her head slightly to the left. And with her last breath, the San Juan's lost their wilderness and their magic.

And the last great bear was gone from Colorado. Nah, sad. All right, don't worry. We're going to get a little sadder in a second when I read you a passage from a book that usually makes me cry. Oh, good. All right. So Ed knew he was in a lot of trouble. and his first thought was that he needed to get to the main trail as quickly as possible.

What he didn't know was that Mike was only a few hundred yards away and that he had heard some of the commotion of this attack. He was worried that his mangled leg wouldn't even be able to support his weight, but as he got to his feet, he was happy to see that he was able to walk. But the amount of blood that was spilling out of his leg quickly made him realize that he needed to get to help really quick, and he could feel the beginnings of shock setting in. He'd made it about 90 yards,

when he heard Mike yelling for him and relief washed over Ed. So Mike appears not far away and he had heard the growling of the bear and Ed screams and he figured the bear had killed Egg. That'd be easy to kill. What is this Anne from Arrested Development?

Exactly. He figured the bear had killed Ed and dragged him away so he was slowly approaching the area. Geez. Slowly approaching. Oh gosh. I'm hungry, I guess, slowly approaching this area with an arrow knocked and ready to go. And when he saw Ed, he was already scared, already pale, but the sight of Ed made the rest of his blood drain out of Mike's face.

Ed was covered in blood and his leg was ripped to shreds. What did the egg look like? Probably broken. Yoke all over the place. Super dead. All right. the two men used a small first aid kit to do their best to band it. I'm going to have a hard time not saying it now.

I need to reset here. Trying to banana his leg. Yeah. I thought this is going to be an emotional story. Just imagine this forest floor. There's a bow all over. There's just egg. It's banana.

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All right. doing their best to bandage some of Ed's more serious wounds and stem the bleeding, but both of them knew that Mike was going to have to go get the horses while Ed waited. So they do their best to make Ed as comfortable as possible, and Mike leaves to round up the horses and bring them back to Ed. This is late September in the high mountains of Colorado. So while it's a warm day, the night was guaranteed to be very, very cold. So as Mike runs back to get the horses, it starts getting pretty dark and Ed knew his fight for survival was far from over. You guys know that when you're in the mountains at night, even in the middle of the summer

here in Montana, the high mountains get pretty cold at night. Oh yeah, windy. Well, I was just thinking about how you said Ed's never really had like a bad thing said about him or a bad review as like a guide. I think Mike could kind of light him up. Be like, he made me get the horses. Yeah. I didn't get an elk.

We stayed way too late. It's a good point. He'll drop down to like a 4.9 on Yelp or whatever. Yeah. I wonder what a hunting Yelp would be called. All right. So Mike returns with the two horses and they immediately catch the scent of grizzly bear everywhere

and both horses rear back in panic and one escapes from Mike and bolts. Mike brings the other horse over, freckles as close as possible, but Ed's condition had gotten much worse and he had lost a lot of blood, so when he stands up to try and get on freckles, he loses consciousness. And Mike catches Ed and lowers him to the ground. Ed comes back to, he stands up again and he tries again.

This time he's able to get his foot into the stirrup, and he swings his mangled right leg over the horse and pulls himself onto the saddle. But Freckles again starts to panic when he catches the bear's scent as Ed kind of flops down on him, but Ed whispers in his ear and he immediately calms down. And as they move down the trail, Ed is kind of slumped over the saddle horn, and Mike keeps looking back to check on Ed, and he'd make him talk to him every once in a while to try and keep him conscious.

But Mike really didn't know where they're going. This isn't a guy that knows these mountains. So every once in a while, Ed would have to look up and give him directions, but he's having a really hard time not just passing out, and riding the horse is also making his leg bleed a lot more than it had before. And Ed says that he can't make it any further and that a helicopter would be able to land in that meadow. So he tells Mike this is going to be a good place to stop. They'd only gone about one mile of the 11 miles that they needed to travel. And Ed just knew he wasn't going to survive this

journey. So he does his best to explain the route that would be easiest for Mike to get back to camp, which would involve leaving the trail and crossing a ridge. And they knew it wasn't going to be super simple, but both men felt that Mike getting back to camp as quickly as possible would be the only thing that would get if Ed a really good chance of survival. So Mike builds him a fire, but in his haste to get moving, he doesn't leave very much wood, and he piles all of the extra clothes that they had on top of Ed, and the two men go over Mike's route one more time, but Ed inside isn't that worried because he knows that Freckles

knows the area better than anyone, and that if Mike got lost, Freckles would still be able to find his way back to camp. Almost immediately after Mike left, Ed realized they're short on wood, and he does his best to conserve the firewood, but he soon decided that he would have to crawl to some nearby deadfall in order to keep this fire going. And this deadfall is only about 20 feet away, but it seemed like a mile. And when Ed got there, he managed to get another small fire going. But at this point, the wind had really picked up, and this spot was really exposed, and he's starting to get really cold. So he decides to climb under a thick pine tree and just pile all of the wind. the clothes on top of him and get out of the wind because he knows that hypothermia is probably the

most dangerous thing for him right now with all the blood that he's lost. About three in the morning, Mike shows back up alone. And the other men, the other two men were still up on a ridge. They had all been looking for Ed. Mike had yelled at them that he found Ed, but it was a really hard ridge for these other two men to get down from. And it took him about two hours to get down and get to Ed. And in the process, one of their horses fell off a 200-foot cliff, which is pretty crazy. Yeah. Oh, man. Mike's dad is one of these other men.

He's a medical doctor, and he quickly surveys Ed's wounds. He says he doesn't think any of them are life-threatening on their own, but the hypothermia and blood loss were a real concern. The men had gotten a call out to rescue services. They lit a big smoky fire in the meadow to show the helicopter where to land, and it finally shows up around 7 a.m. So at this point, Ed has been like over 12 hours mauled by this grizzly bear waiting for help. This pilot, when he shows up, he's a Vietnam vet.

He had seen a lot of death. But when he sees Ed and his injuries, he quietly pulls the other men aside and says that he's not going to survive it, that they should just prepare themselves for Ed dying, that he had lost way too much blood. 12 hours, that's a little less time than we just spent watching Lord of the Rings. That's just way too long to be sitting there with life-threatening injuries and freezing cold hamburger leg. Jeff, you had to sleep through a third of that. That's how long that was.

I bet you Ed slept. You think he slept a little bit? Yeah. Actually, he says that he did not want to go to sleep because he was worried he would not be able to wake back up. So he didn't sleep at all. Yeah. Oh, wow. Yeah.

You're right. That was hard. Yeah. harder than the thing that we look forward to all year. Ed's loaded into the helicopter. He's flown to the nearest hospital in Alamosa, and the doctors immediately start working on getting his body temperature back up and working on his injuries.

He had lost almost three pints of blood in the mauling. His right leg had been broken in nine different places, and the muscle and tissue on that leg looked like it had gone through a blender. He also had puncture wounds on his shoulders and bites on both arms. he would end up spending 31 days in the hospital, but doctors would be able to save his right leg, and he was able to walk again. Dracula would have been like,

they come in pints when he saw all that blood. We really got Lord of the Rings on the break. Yeah, sorry. We're getting it out of our system. Yeah. But this ordeal is far from over for Ed. Oh, no. And what do you guys think?

Why would there still be a lot of hard, ship to come for him. Oh, you're good storyteller, dude. Why? The bear's ghost. Oh, my gosh. It was there all along. He's about to be haunted by the ghost

grizzly. You set that up. In a way, that's true. In a way, that's true. So there was a fair amount of legal pressure that almost immediately was put on it. He's a professional hunting guide. He'd killed a protected species

that was the last of its kind in that region. So almost immediately the federal government launches an investigation just like three days after the attack. They collect this dead bear a few days later, and although a significant amount of spoilage had already happened, they were able to find two wounds in the bear that were pretty consistent where Ed said he had stabbed it. The first wound was in the throat.

That wound was thought to be superficial and caused by a four-bladed cutting instrument, so the broadhead arrow. And the second wound had hit the aortic arch and the lungs. It was thought to be the fatal wound, and it had been caused by a double-bladed flat-cutting instrument. So because they saw that there was two different types of arrows used, this caused a lot of suspicion for these investigators.

Like he was hunting it. They thought the story of a guy killing a 400-pound grizzly bear with a broken arrow was crazy, and they thought what Jeff just said, a second hypothesis was made that maybe he had fatally shot this bear while it was sleeping and then it charged and attacked him and he had made the throat wound while he was being mauled by the bear before it died. So the stabbing was while he was being mauled.

It didn't really do anything. The thing that had actually killed the bear was what had also enraged it was their hypothesis. It's a pretty good hypothesis. It's one that really holds a lot of water when you look at this carcass and everything. So what they do is while Ed's still recovering, they make Mike take a lie detector test, which he clears,

and then they simply had to wait until Ed was healthy enough to take his own lie detector. And they waited six months, and then when Ed was finally feeling like totally healthy, he takes a couple different polygraphs, and he clears them all. And I think in today's world, we know that polygraphs are very flawed. They're not usually admissible in court. but at that time they were like they thought they were pretty ironclad.

I kind of went back and forth on this. I read a lot about it. And when I first was reading it, I was like, you know what? He probably did shoot this bear and then made up this story. And that's why he was kind of like, oh yeah, suddenly my brain turned into photographs, you know. Like I don't fully remember everything. And it just seemed a little too convenient and too crazy of a story for the last grizzly in Colorado to have been killed. by being stabbed with an arrow.

But I do, the more I looked into it and also the author of Ghost Grizzlies, the more he looked into it, the more there seemed to be evidence that kind of backed up Ed more than anything. And I'm going to go over a few of those things really quickly. First of all, the reason there was probably two different types of arrows is what I said earlier. Those blades on broadhead arrows come off pretty easily.

if they're pulled the way they're not supposed to be pulled. And it's very likely that somewhere up there in the gut pile that they left behind or whatever, there's an arrow head. You know, they just missed it when they collected the Grizzlies carcass. And they didn't really look through it that well either, apparently, like, according to these reports. And then the other thing that I think is some really good evidence for Ed is that where the fatal wound was, It looked like it was consistent with someone like stabbing upward into a bear. It wasn't like a shot that would have gone down into a bear.

Like what would you have if you shot a sleeping bear with a bone arrow? So the angle of that wound was very consistent with the position that Ed said he was in. And then the final thing, the final two things that I think are pretty convincing is that... Unless like the bear sleeps on its back. Or up in a tree? bears don't do that. They almost always sleep. It's healthier for your neck.

That is true. That's very true. They should know. The final thing that, the final two things I think are really convincing is with the compound bow in one of these broadhead arrows, unless you hit a major bone, the arrow is going to go all the way through the animal. And a professional guide like Ed almost always would get his arrow to go all the way through. So the fact it didn't go all the way through is pretty convincing.

And then also I think this is the most, the best evidence in Ed's favor is that just about everyone that knows this guy, including wildlife officials that knew him very well, said that he was an extremely ethical hunter. He did everything by the book. And that one of these Game Warden said he had run into Ed dozens of times in the mountains and never had to write him a single ticket. And for me, it's kind of like, if you have that history and that reputation, it seems kind of crazy that you would just take a part. hot shot at a bear that's sleeping in a me. That just doesn't seem like his character to me. So I tend to believe in. The other argument for him shooting at it, though, would be, like, he kind of felt like

there might still be grizzlies, right? No, he didn't. Yeah. He had heard stories about him. Yeah, but he didn't think there was still grizzlies. Because I was thinking, like, maybe he'd want to just prove there's a grizzly. Yeah. I think he would know that he'd be in a lot of trouble, though, if he shot a

a grizzly. I think most of these guys would understand that. So I kind of just like to think that this old bear... Or maybe he killed it right away and then mauled himself with his body. Just grabbed its teeth and claws. Yeah. That seems like the most likely. That's probably what it was. Chucked his horse off a cliff.

Oh, that poor horse. That's like kind of horrifying to think about it. Listen, I don't wish harm upon anyone or anything. I just don't want them. I don't want them in my house. Nolan, dude. Except for Nolan. Oh, man.

We're going to rumble one day, me and that man. It's a subscriber joke, I think. It's forever. I'm confused right now. All you need to know is I hate Nolan. I kind of just like to think that this old bear knew that she was the last of her kind and that she was going to seal the fate of Colorado grizzly bears. with the blood of her tormentors, you know?

Just like, I'm going to tear apart one of these dudes, and that's going to be it for us in these mountains. One last stand. So I was going to spend a lot more time on kind of what the crux of the book Ghost Grizzly is about and this other book by Rick Bass. But I actually don't think it's all that interesting, even though it's the main focuses of these books.

But basically, multiple expeditions. Scathing review from West. I just like, for me, like searching for animals that probably don't exist in places anymore isn't that interesting to me. It just doesn't really do it for me. Sometimes it is. But in this case, it's not because I think all of these expeditions they launched afterward by different bear experts and enthusiasts and wildlife professionals, they set out a bunch of traps after the smalling. All of them were to try and learn if there was other grizzlies in the San Juan's or the Sangres. and they didn't turn up any hard evidence.

And they've done this. They did this for decades. And they, like, people would find tracks that they thought might be grizzlies or hair that they thought might be a grizzlies hair. But they never turned up any real tangible evidence of ghost grizzlies in Colorado. Oh, yeah. I remember, too. I showed you that video of, like, those people were looking for that bird they thought was maybe extinct. I love that.

And then they ended up finding it in, like, the, like, those. local guide started crying and you said, I just don't think that's very interesting. That's not true. If they do find it, I think it's very interesting. But I feel like, powned. I feel like almost always these stories are like, well, we didn't find anything, but we sure learned a lot in the process. And there's multiple books about this. If you're into that sort of thing, which I don't think there's anything wrong with that, I really recommend these books. Ghost Grizzlies was really a fun read. But to me, it kind of just makes me feel sad. when it's like, oh, sure, we had this animal for so long and we didn't really do much about it.

And now that it's gone, we're investing all this effort into proving that it's still there. And it's kind of like maybe that effort should have been used differently before. Yeah. I see. Listen. Enjoy more ways to save at Ralph's like low prices in every aisle. And when you download the Ralph's app, you can clip and save more with digital coupons every week. Plus, you can earn fuel points to save up to $1 per gallon at the pump.

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No credit cards or alien encounters necessary. Pluto TV, stream now, pay never. I'm going to read you guys something sad and beautiful. I usually don't like to read a lot on the podcast because I, don't like it when people read to me usually but this is one of my favorite books this is called a sand county almanac it's by aldo leopold uh alo leopold was kind of considered the father of modern conservation in north america and he was like a a wildlife expert slash forestry official slash a bunch of other things and he wrote this book about the early 1900s and everything that was happening to

wildlife. And there's a chapter called Arizona and New Mexico, and there's a part of that chapter called Escudia, and it's about the last grizzly bear in Arizona, and I just want to read it because I think it's really beautiful. And I'm just going to read a few parts of it, not the whole chapter. Don't worry. There was, in fact, only one place from which you did not see Escudia on the skyline. Escudia is a mountain, just so you know. That was the top of Eskadea itself. Up there, you could not see the mountain, but you could feel it. The reason was. was the big bear. Old Bigfoot was a robber baron, and Escudia was his castle. Each spring, when the warm winds had softened the shadows on the snow, the old grizzly crawled out of his

hibernation den in the rock slides, and descending the mountain bashed in the head of a cow. Eating his fill, he climbed back to his crags, and there summered peaceably on marmits, cones, berries, and roots. None of us ever saw the old bear, but in the muddy springs about the base of the cliffs you saw his incredible tracks, seeing them made the most hard-bitten cowboys aware of the bear. Whenever they rode, they saw the mountain, and when they saw the mountain, they thought of bear. Campfire conversation ran to beef, bales, and bear. Bigfoot claimed, for his own, only a cow a year, and a few square miles of useless rocks, but his personality pervaded the country. Those were the days when Progress first came to the cow country. Progress had various emissaries.

So he talks about kind of what progress was considered. about people coming and kind of ruining nature in the, you know, in the pursuit of progress. I'm going to skip ahead. One spring, progress sent another emissary, a government trapper, a sort of St. George and overalls, seeking dragons to slay at government expense. Were there, he asked, any destructive animals in need of slaying? Yes, there was the big bear. The trapper packed his mule and headed for Escudia.

In a month he was back, his mule staggering under a heavy hide. There was only one barn in town big enough to dry it on. He had tried traps, poison, and all his usual wiles to no avail. Then he had erected a set gun in a defile through which only the bear could pass and waited. The last grizzly walked into the string and shot himself. It was only after we pondered on these things that we began to wonder who wrote the rules for progress. Since the beginning, time had nodded at the basaltic hulk of Escadilla, wasting, waiting, and building. time built three things on the old mountain, a venerable aspect, a community of minor animals,

and plants, and a grizzly. The government trapper who took the grizzly knew he had made Escadilla safe for cows. He did not know he had toppled the spire, often edifice a building since the morning stars sang together. We forest officers who acquiesced in the extinguishment of the bear knew a local rancher who'd plowed up a dagger engraved with the name of one of Coronado's captains. We spoke harshly of the Spaniards, who, in their zeal for golden converts, had needlessly extinguished the native Indians. It did not occur to us that we, too were the captains of an invasion too sure of its own righteousness. Escudia still hangs on the horizon, but when you see it now, you no longer think of a bear. It's only a mountain now.

Which I think is really good. Yeah. Kind of long. No, that's great. Sorry, but it always makes me a little emotional because it's like, that's the true story of the last grizzly killed in Arizona. And I do feel that way. I feel like when you lose a grizzly from a place, it's just a place after that point. It's no longer a wilderness.

It's no longer what it was before. It's just a mountain. And I love that chapter. Anyway, sorry, it was kind of long. Okay, so really quickly, I want to go over the rise and fall, and then hopefully the rise again of grizzly bears in the United States. So their historic range once took them all across the Great Plains. their records of grizzly bears as far east as the western edge of Missouri, and they could also be found through Texas and down into northern Mexico.

And this is like in the 1800s, early 1900s, that this was their range. But at the same time that happened in Colorado, oh, sorry, the same thing that happened in Colorado happened in just about every other place the grizzly bears were found once settlers started showing up and colonizing the west. Grizzly bears were seen at the very least as bothersome pests, and in the worst case is ravaging monsters. So basically, Colorado wasn't alone in their campaign

to bring an end to livestock losses and take over the best possible grizzly bear habitat. And one by one, states killed their last grizzly bear. And I don't have a date for all of those local extinctions, but here's a few of them. So in 1890, the last grizzly bear was killed in Texas. In 1922, the last grizzly bear in... When?

1890. They shot the last one in Texas. 1922, the last grizzly bear in California was shot in the Sierra Nevada's. Jeff, still on their flag. Yeah, you got to do that California. 1923, the year of the last verified grizzly bear sighting in Utah, the state where both of you live. I guess the whales has a dragon on their flag. Yeah, that's true.

They got rid off their track. 1931, the year of the last verified grizzly bear sighting in. in Oregon. 1933, the year of the last verified grizzly bear sighting in New Mexico. 1935, the last grizzly bear is killed in Escadilla, Arizona. 1951, Colorado thinks they kill their last grizzly bear. In 1975, after a massive reduction in population, there's thought to be less than 1,000 grizzlies in the lower 48, which the majority are split between the greater Yellowstone ecosystem in Wyoming, Montana and Idaho, and then the northern continental divide ecosystem in western Montana.

And because of this, their list is threatened on the Endangered Species Act. So it's kind of the first thing in favor of Grizzlies in most of our history. In 1979, the last grizzly bear in Colorado is actually killed by Ed Wiseman. 1983, the year I'm born, 10 years pre-JP, in grizzly bear conservation in the lower 48, really begins in earnest, with the formation of the interagency grizzly bear commission or committee. So that's kind of like the USGS, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, all these different agencies working together to conserve grizzly bears. And after 42 years of very dedicated grizzly bear conservation efforts in the lower 48,

we now likely have close to 2,500 grizzly bears in the lower 48, which is more than double the number we had in 1975. And some of these ecosystems like the Greater Yellowstone are probably at their carrying capacity for grizzly bears. Jeff, you just mentioned yesterday to our cousin that recently Grizzly Bear was seen just like a few dozen miles from Utah. And that's one of these greater Yellowstone bears that's starting to spread back out into their historic range because that ecosystem has so many bears in it, which is really cool. Bring them back to Utah, you know? You never said Utah's date. I did. Yeah, we did.

It was 1923. So the Grizzly's route was like Wyoming to Colorado then for a while. Yeah, the Colorado population then was an island population. So they didn't really spread out. They got pretty cut off. Yeah. Okay. Okay.

I think it's a really good start. I think a lot of this conservation that's happened is amazing. I think we owe the Great Bear a lot. And I personally would love to see a future where these populations are connected. And grizzly bears are really given the opportunity to start anew in ecosystems like the San Juan Mountains where they have this really rich history and they belong on the landscape. So I'm really hoping for that someday. I hope that we have books that make me happy instead of make me sad about Grizzlies. And we do.

We already do have that. All right. Brother Bear. That's kind of sad too, though. That is sad. That movie sometimes makes me cry as well. What's a happy bear story? A happy bear story.

story. We need Winnie the Pooh is usually pretty happy by the end. Yeah. Brother Bear's a happy story. It just has its sad parts. Oh, no, that's sad. No, it's happy. What happens at the end? The, the guy decides to stay a bear, but his brothers, they're all, like, love each other and stuff, and they see each other. His brother's dead. His older brother is, but not his other brother. It's, I watched for my birthday this year. No, I don't want side to die. All right. Any questions about part two of Ghost Grizzlies, Ed Wiseman's attack, anything? Some general questions. Yeah.

If you were to hold a bear cub hostage at knife point, would that deter the mom bear from charging at you? No. No, it would not. It wouldn't care at all. No, I think you would very much be encouraging her to charge at you. Yeah. I don't think they understand. Do bears ever pretend to be asleep so that you?

you get closer to them? I don't think so, but I'm not sure. It's a good question. Yeah. Where do the grizzly bears, where did you, that bear just left in the middle of the meadow? They usually have like day beds on the kind of in areas that are a little bit more obscured, like on the edge of the timber. So it wasn't just like in the middle of a meadow, but it was on the edge in a little depression,

which we're all three in, you know? A little one. Yeah. You said earlier that he dropped his bow and arrows all over. It was just all over the floor of the forest. Yeah. I don't. I just, how many arrows did he have like a million?

Otherwise, it wouldn't really covered much of the forest floor, in my opinion. Yeah. I regret asking if you guys had any questions. You don't need to ask any. All right. Does Pippen have the right to look at the Palantir because he is the one that found it? I kind of think so. Yeah.

I mean, at least tell him what it is. Yeah. And ultimately, it did some good. This is maybe the coolest rock I've ever found. Yeah. And you're just going to take it from me and not tell me why? Also, like, the Palantir corrupts people, kind of like the ring does. Kind of like Palantir nowadays.

Yeah, like Palantir nowadays. But the hobbits are so pure a heart that shouldn't they be the ones that you? use them. Like, I feel like the planterer should be used by hobbits of anyone. Not all hobbits, though. Yeah, that's true. Pippin's pretty easily corruptible. I think you just load Frodo up with every magical object in the realm. It's just carrying her out everything. Pippin just the only one that can immediately is like, hey, Denethor, I will do whatever you want. I'm your guy. Just because your son died. Mary's so much better. No, Pippin, he just, he's thinking four steps ahead. That's all he was doing. All right, categories.

First category is your favorite bow and arrow moment from any media. I'm going to go with the cartoon Robin Hood where he shoots the arrow through the center at the bullseye. Yeah, so cool. Where everyone's like, he can't beat that. And then he shoots. That's a really good pick. He's all dressed up like a stork. That's like my first time ever really getting excited about a bow and arrow.

I like that. He's like no look shooting too. He's so awesome in that scene. I feel like he did shoot wind though from that. Like I think it's more of a tie. Oh, you think? He hit the exact same center. I think it's him shooting his own arrow though.

I think he shoots his own. Yeah. Do you know who's also a pretty good performer in, so Lady Cluck when she's running across the field and she's like goes into the football mode and she's like stiff arming and side stepping all the rhinos? Oh, yeah. And it's kind of like has such a cool perspective from a car. I know from that age. Yeah.

Man, that movie's, movie rules. Yeah. I'm also going with Robin Hood, but it's the Kevin Costner one, the Prince of Thieves. At the very end, when he shoots the flaming arrow through the,

or he kills the guy that's about, I think he's about to chop off Christian Slater's head. Yeah. Man, it's all slow-mo. They knew that, they knew that that shot was sick, too, because they put it on like the poster and the movie, front of the movie box and everything.

Yeah. I'm going to pick, A Lord of the Rings one. I'm going to pick Legolas when they're in Casa Doom. And those orcs are shooting arrows at them from the up above. And I feel like it's one of the first times you actually get to see Legulus is like proficiency with a bow. And you see the shot where it does the arrow POV like all the way into the orcs head. And I just really like that shot.

And I feel like when those movies first came out, Legalus was one of the cooler characters. and now he's probably my least favorite member of the fellowship but still really i love the arrow parts yeah who's yours who did you say you're i wrote man fiction mary about legulis really yeah i drew a photo of or a drawing of him killing an orc do you still have the fanfic jeff yeah i don't know i could i could look um he kills a hundred orc himself oh that's more than he does in two towers at helms deep That shot's weird though Because you follow it through and it pierces straight through the orcs head and then it Wedges into like a stone edifice

Yeah You notice that? Yeah Is the arrow just like going in through the stone and sticking there? Maybe it like hits a crack yeah or he just shoots it so hard that it goes into the stone I don't know Maybe I don't know I always was frustrated that they didn't just sit there and shoot those like five orcs

Since he killed it so quickly they like run and just take fire from them It's like maybe just kill all of them. But what do I know? I thought I won... Nothing. In all that that I love a lot. John Snow. Where it's...

What's her name? The Stark wife. Caitlin Starke. Yeah, Caitlin. Caitlin Clark. Like Catlin Stark. But when her dad dies and they like soak the boat in gasoline or like in fire stuff and put it in the river. Oh yeah.

And then there's that old guy trying to shoot it with. the fire arrow and he keeps missing. Yeah. And then I forget who like just takes it over and like drills it for a shot. It's her uncle. The blackfish. Yeah. And it's like almost out of reach and he just.

Steph Curry is it. Yeah. That's a great. Great scene. All right. Next category. If you could put Grizzlies back in any state where they used to exist and and like the hypothetical here is they're going to do well when you put them back.

back, which state would you pick? I can't believe you just have legless just squarely at the bottom, man. I don't, like, I couldn't, I like them all way too much to even say that. But Legless would be for sure ahead of, like, Mary, Pippen, Boromir Gimley. I didn't say squarely, dude. I didn't say squarely, I said I think he's my least favorite right now. And I like Boromir a lot. Boromir's awesome for me.

But like, you get three movies of Legerless and just that one with Boromier. And for the most part, he's throwing sticks all over the place. So many scenes where, like. has a temper. I really noticed it this time where Legolus has so many terrible line deliveries just to like the ether. No way. That, yeah.

It's Elvis. Yeah, I don't know. Maybe the Hobbit movies kind of tainted my Legalis feelings too. But that's how to taint your feelings. Okay. If you can put Grizzlies back in any state where they used to exist and the hypothetical here is they're going to do well. Because obviously if you like put them in Texas right now, they wouldn't do great.

which state would you pick? So they're going to do well. Which state are you picking? Maine. They didn't used to exist in Maine. That's off the table. Oh, really? They have to used to exist in this state.

Maine has like 40,000 black bears. Yeah, but that doesn't, you're not putting them in Maine because that's not one of the options. Grizzlies never existed in Maine? Not that I know of. Wow. I can look at there. So there's a historical range, which is like everything we know in history they existed in. like in written history.

And then there's post-glacial range, which would be like where we know ursus-ur-sus as a species existed. And Maine is not one of those places. They did exist around the Great Lakes kind of, but not Maine. So Maine doesn't count. Did they ever live in Nevada? Yes. Then that's what I'm,

I'm thinking bears, oh man, a bear on the Vegas strip every once in a while would be so sweet. And that would be cool. Yeah. I think I'm going to pick Arizona. I just think it'd be cool to have grizzlies in Arizona again. Why?

Just, I feel like Arizona already has some really interesting wildlife. Like every once in a while they get a jaguar. They have like peckeries and ringtail cats and just kind of weird stuff that you don't really find in a lot of places. And so it'd be cool if they also, like, throw a grizzly bear in the mix, too, in the desert. I'm going to pick North Dakota. Okay. Yeah. Just needs something.

Sure. Yeah, just do them a favor. Yeah, they need something to get excited about. Sunflowers right now, and that's about it. Dude, a grizzly bear and sunflowers, that'd be beautiful. That would be beautiful. Oh, my gosh. That's a good pick.

Okay. Do you think if a zombie may, or zombie? A ghost grizzly. Yeah. What could I possibly have been thinking about to say zombie? What was I thinking about? What? Never mind.

You think if a zombie went to North Dakota, it would find anyone to eat? Is that what you're going to say? I think that must have been what I was thinking. All right. Next category is a really quick, we're Mike and Jeff paying attention, but it's one for a good cause. So I talked about seven states just now in the history of when grizzly bears were eliminated from those states. and if you guys can tell me six of those seven states, and if you can get at least two of them in the right order that I said,

I'm going to donate $250 to the Bellocula attack victims. Can't you just donate the money no matter what? Yeah. Tell me what. This is smart, because now it's our fault if he doesn't. I think you guys can do this. If you can get six of the seven states and I'll allow, you get one molligan. So if you say a wrong state, that's okay.

I want six of the seven. And if you get two of them in order, you should be able to get the last one right. I'm going to donate that much money. So what was the first state that I said grizzly bears were eliminated from in 1890? Oh, we need to go in order? If you get them in order, you get extra. Texas. Two of them in order.

Right. Perfect. What was the last state I said in 1979? Colorado. Okay, so we got that out of the way and we got two of the states. So now all I need is five more states that I mentioned and you get one miss each and I'll donate that much money. Do we need to go in order? Nope, we already got them in order.

But if you get them in order, great. Utah. Utah. Arizona. Arizona. Nevada. No. California.

That's Jeff Smolgan. California. What? You did say? Nevada just to Mike recently though. I know, but that's not one of the ones I mentioned. So you guys have done what Arizona, California, and Utah are the three you've said. He's got you on a technicality.

And then we also had Texas and Colorado. So we have five. You need one more. Wyoming? And Mike, you still have your Mulligan. Well, they live in Wyoming still. Mike got his mulligan, but Jeff got it right. Yeah.

New Mexico was one of the states. The other ones I said were Oregon or the other one was Oregon. Oh, yeah. Oregon. All right. You guys did it. I'm donating $250 bucks to the victims

of the bellocula bear attack. I already donated it. I just wanted to grill you guys a little bit. Wow. All right. We're going to do a quick, let's argue. Okay. Because I saw a review on Apple Podcasts for our show

and we're going to argue with this reviewer because the reviewer said all three of the hosts think that the second Jurassic Park movie is the best. What? Yeah. How could they have ever... They must have listened to like one episode and taken it fully out of context. We don't think that at all.

I think all three of us squarely think Jurassic Park is by far the best of all the Jurassic movies, right? Did they mean best sequel? That must be what they're thinking. Yeah. But I thought we could argue about that maybe. a little bit. Do you guys think the lost world is the best sequel? Because I definitely do. I don't see it as much better than the third. Yeah. I don't really like any of the other movies enough to like even label one of them as being the best. I just don't really have a good time with any of them.

I genuinely like The Lost World a lot. It's nowhere near Jurassic Park, but I really like it. And it's the only one I feel that way about. Yeah. No, there's like there's some really fun moments in it, of course, but I overall I think it was a pretty bad miss for Spielberg. I didn't think Vince Vaughn was that funny. Was he supposed to be funny? Was he supposed to be funny?

Nick, I think his character's name's Nick, right? Yeah, I thought. I think it had some really cool scenes but yeah, a little bit hard watch. I think it's darker, which I liked. Some cool kills. The Raptors and the grass is really cool. I just think like it gave me what I wanted,

especially at that age, which was a bunch of people getting killed by dinosaurs. Sure. Yeah. Stephen Spielberg still. The way I think about it is, you know, after the first Pirates of the Caribbean movie, they basically made Johnny Depp the star of that series because he was such like a fun, kooky character. That's kind of what they tried to do with Malcolm in the lost world.

But they're like, but don't do any of the things that made you fun or interesting. Just be like a weird, nervous dad. Yeah. That's a good point. It was a really strange character decision. They do like, they waste him. They like completely change his whole vibe in the second movie. And he's still,

just, Jeff Goldblum is so awesome that like it's still kind of works. But yeah, I don't know. There was such a weird miscalculation on their part. I think that it has some of the most beautiful scenes of any of the Jurassic movies. Like the part where the two T-Rexes first like step into that clearing and then rip that guy in half is really like strangely beautiful. The Raptor is like jumping around all those abandoned buildings. The girl doing the gymnastics routine and kicking that raptor. The best part.

The gymnastics. All right. So there you have it. It's West's David of Jurassic Park. It's not my favorite. We're arguing. Yeah, it was still a five-star review, so we won't be too mad at that person. If you ever feel like leaving us one of those, go for it.

It helps us out a lot. Okay. In Borneo, when we went to Borneo, one of our travelers, Christine, gave us some Lord of the Rings trivia cards, if you'll remember it. I do remember now. I'm going to randomly draw three cards and ask three questions for you guys. Thanks, Christine. Yes, thank you. Hope you're still out there. Thanks, Christine.

First card is titled, The Second Age. Question one, which legendary Elvin King is slain in an epic battle? in the second age. This is the battle. Yeah, Gilgadad is my guess. What was your guess, Jeff? Is that a real person? I don't know.

West said, yeah, that guy's right. I thought you said Gilgadad. I thought you said Gilgadad. Gilgad. Yeah. I'll go with Gilgadad then, too. Okay. That's who it is.

Giggad. Giggad. Here's another card. This one's titled Trolls. How many points are on the spear that the Moria cave troll stabs Frodo with? Three. Twelve. Three is the correct answer.

A twelve point spear would be dangerous. That would be cool. Do you like a candelabra? Well, I mean, it's like the bear story. Nine of the spear things got stuck in the mystery. There's a broadheaded spear. All right, this one's called Rohan. What symbolic gesture does the leader of the wild men?

men do to show allegiance to Saraman. Oh, cuts his hand. Cuts his hand, correct. Okay, one more. This one's titled, Eisengard. Who says that the dwarves awakened shadow and flame in the darkness of Khazardum? Saraman. Correct.

It is Saraman. All right. Thank you, Christine, for those cards. Nice gift. Wesel donate another 250. Thank you very much. To Lord of the Rings. support groups. All right, listener questions.

This one's from Colleen. Colleen says, my listener questions comes from a conversation. My mom had tonight at dinner. She was so excited. Hey, Colleen. She was so excited to tell me that she was listening to one of the newest episodes, but hated the California slander, specifically that add gray wolves to the flag. I think that was you, Jeff.

To be fair, I thought it was hilarious. We then talked about how terrible it is that Mike is a Padres fan. Go Dodgers. And it led me to want to ask, what is your favorite thing about California? Mike, you can say the Padres, but with the Dodgers in the same state, you might as well just say them. Mike, I think you go first. It's like, how can you, it's, there's just not even, the worst part is that there's not even an argument to be made. The Dodgers are just historically and currently so much better.

And it's really painful. I'm going to go, I think Southern California. specifically has the best Americanized Mexican food in the country. I know all you all Texas people, you got good, great Mexican food even. Tex-Mex is great.

Kind of traditional Mexican food, too. They got a lot of just like pretty authentic. That's what I'm thinking. Yeah. Jeff, what's your favorite thing about California? Probably just like the scenery. I think it's a beautiful state. You get ocean, mountains, redwoods.

I mean, it's not, I'm sorry. I'm not the one that killed all your grizzly bears. So Colleen's mom, I'm sorry. Like, I think you'd be one of the best, I think you might be the best state if you had grizzly bears, but you don't. So you're not. I'm going to say the Redwoods. I think the Redwoods are my favorite part of California. Every time I go there.

That's my, like, national park I most want to see, I think. It's so magical. All right. This one's from Hannah. Hannah says, hi, boys. Two questions for you guys. First, for Wes, the latest episode on the Ghost Grizzlies of Colorado make me think about the plan to reintroduce Grizzlies to the North Cascades in Washington.

Are there any similar plans in place in Colorado? And do you think that could be done effectively? There are not. And the reason it can't be done effectively is when they're reintroducing Grizzlies to places, they want to do it in places where they can connect to existing populations. So like the ones in the North Cascades, hopefully we'll be able to connect into populations. populations in British Columbia, and that helps improve, you know, genetic fitness, all sorts of

different things, the overall range of the species. And right now, reintroducing them in the San Juan's, you'd be reintroducing in an island population that would be really not a very strong population. Because Colorado does border Wyoming, but the bears in Wyoming just don't go that far south. Yeah, they don't make it even close. So there just wouldn't be any connection. Would we eat a line of treats for them to get them to go further south? I guess we haven't thought of that. We could do that. So I take back my whole answer.

Your brain is your biggest tool, Jeff. You're right. No, like in Montana they've talked a lot about putting them in the mountains where I live, the Bitterroots, where we occasionally have them because they live really close to here. And that would be a great spot for a reintroduction because they would connect very easily to other populations. So that's kind of the crux of that. Second question from Hannah, if you were facing a Bogart or Boggart, how do you say that?

Bogart, the one from Harry Potter, the thing in the chest that's like the scary, it's the scariest thing they can imagine. Bogart, right? Like Neville thinks a Snape, which is like, Snape's a bad guy. Yeah. He's just torturing kids that aren't Harry Potter, too. Yeah. Hannah says, what form do you think it would take?

And what would you turn it into to no longer be scary? But Harry still names his son Severus. Yeah, it doesn't make a lot of sense. Snaith is the real hero. Just tortured kids. Yeah. What's your boggart going to be? And what are you turning it into?

What's your scariest thing? Mine would be snake. Snape. They nailed it for you. And you'd put a dress on him? Yeah. Okay. Mike, what's your answer?

I don't know. Myself, aren't we all our own worst enemy after all? Like that one just failure. Yeah. Yeah, it would have to be something existential for me, too. It'd be like my consciousness trapped in a computer, which would be hard for a boggart to display. But then I would turn it into like, I don't know, a koala.

Mikes, koala's are cute, that's why. Yeah, they are. They're cute as shit. Mike's would be like Snape as a horse Yeah And you'd turn it into Snores A zebra

Hap Oh dude that would be cool All right This one's from Sarah Sarah says I'm ready to take on a boggart I'm typically anti-audiobook But trying to learn to like them Have you listened to any that you'd recommend in that format

Hell yeah bro Are you kidding me We just talked about Harry Potter and not to like, I have my issues right now with, you know, everything going on around those books, but I think they're the best audio books have ever listened to. Because of like all the witches in the world? No, because of all the trans fear in the world. Yeah, transphobia.

But I thought I... I think I have a hard time recommending her books right now, but those audio books are perfect. And I think they're so fun to listen to. and I actually really liked the three body problem books in an audiobook format too. Mike, what do you, what do you recommend? Those are those are the kinds of books I actually, I know it's almost a different experience entirely, but I felt like I had to read those in text or otherwise. I was kind of missing out on a lot.

People are just good though. They ingest, people ingest information differently. But for me, Tim Curry actually, he did the narration for the Abhorsen trilogy. Sabriel is the first book. amazing, amazing books about a young woman who grew up. Well, I won't get too much into spoilers, but it's about necomancy, all kinds of cool, magical stuff. Highly underrated, and I highly recommend them to anyone who's interested in some cool, magical books. The first three, specifically, are the ones I'd tell you to again to. Sabriel, Leriel, a Porson. Yeah. Tim Curry,

are you kidding me? It's hot off the, probably just got done acting in Home Alone, too, back then. One of the great works in American film history. First of all, I'll recommend going on like a long drive and doing it. You know? Oh, yeah. Like, that's the perfect format for an audiobook. And then kind of a sneaky one that was really good was Ender's game. Oh, yeah.

That was a good audiobook. Yeah. Yeah. I read that one and listened to the audiobook, and they were both really good. Yeah. That one's great because it's quick. You can really, it doesn't even have to be like a super long road trip. Yeah.

It's great. One more question. this one's from Blake. Blake says, hi, I've been thinking about this question since I saw a movie poster with Jason Mamoa. And that question is, what actor or actors need to stop being in movies for a little while, or at least slow down because they're in too many? Mine is obviously Jason Mamoa, Mamoa, because I swear he's in every single movie. Thank you. I didn't really give you guys time to think about this, but I've been thinking about it. And my answer is Sidney-Sweeney. I just feel like she's in everything these days.

No way, dude. Put her in more. And I don't, I don't think she's a really good actor. She's had certain performance that I thought she was good in, but her like, I don't know, she just doesn't really work for me. And Glenn Powell actually, too. She's making interesting choices. I was thinking Glenn Powell is one for me. I really like Glenn Powell, but it's getting to the point where it's like, all right, man.

We're her. Oh, you're getting. But I also don't blame anyone for working as much. as they can. I remember, and it's not going to be the case for everyone, but I remember when Bruce Willis was really pumping out just like three movies a year and everyone was like, oh my gosh, what is it? And then it ended up just like he wanted to be acting or earning, whatever his reason was, whether it was financial or just he wanted to act while he still could. But like, I don't know, being an actor, it's a really volatile business. So like get it while it getting's good. For me, it's more going to be like good actors that are doing commercials right now. Yeah. Like, if you're Matt Damon and you're going to be in Christopher Nolan's next movie as, like, the one of the lead guys, maybe, like, turn down a couple commercials about beer, you know? Yeah, crypto. You don't need that.

And, like, Matthew McConaughey is just everywhere. It's just like, ah, yeah. And they have to start, like, alcohol companies and stuff, too, where it's just like, come on, guys. Yeah. That one doesn't bug me because, like, with Clooney or. whatever because he's not really in the commercial that much but when I see someone just like and like at least they care about that a lot of times they're just reading something they don't care about for like a little paycheck or something I don't think they really care about their

companies either though I think someone's just running it all for them and they're slapping their face on it maybe I don't mind those as much as when it's just like some random company that they're like not like that it's just like a soulless endorsement for And it's like Yeah Sponsored by I was about to say Tooth and Clause brought to you by

Okay That's it for listener questions Quick conservation You know we talked about it Grizzly bears have made huge steps Toward their recovery in the lower 48 There's been a lot of really hard work done To get them to that level

But as far as if we look at this animal From a global perspective They're least concerned animal There are a lot of them in Canada, a lot in Russia, in Finland and Sweden. There's a lot. Japan? They're doing pretty well globally. Yeah, in Hokkaido.

They're doing well. That's a great thing. And I think it's wonderful. And I love that we can kind of learn from our mistakes in the lower 48 and hopefully put them back in some of the places that we used to have them because they're my favorite animal. And I really deep. China has them. China. Yeah.

They have them. Yeah, they do. Wow. That pandas, too. They're one of the two countries that has four bear species. You know the other one? It's not the United States. It's not Canada.

I'm going to say Russia. No. Mike, you got to guess. We've been there. In India? Yes, it is India. Oh, really? Indiana.

All right. That's it. Thanks guys for listening. We got some new merch coming out. So hopefully you guys check that out. It's fun. new merch that will only be available for a few weeks. And it's a holiday season.

So if you feel like gifting a Patreon subscription or annual membership, it's a great time of the year to do it. And it really helps us out a lot. I recommend it. Yeah. You recommend that, Mike? Well, let me think, actually. The problem is the people who want that as a gift are the ones listening. And like their significant others are.

or whatever, aren't listening, so they don't know to get that. Maybe they are. You know, you never know. It's funny because when we first started the Patreon, I kind of was like, man, I don't know if this is worth it. And now it's like, man, this is the best deal out there, you know? Just so many episodes. If anyone, like, tags me in a story or something of our Patreon subscription,

I'll buy one person's for you. Ooh. Wow. I'm just going to randomly buy one. All right. Yeah. All right. So tag Jeff and thanks guys for listening and we'll see you soon.

All right. Love you. See ya.