Tooth & Claw: True Stories of Animal Attacks - Who is the Real King of the Jungle? - Lions vs. Tigers

Episode Date: April 7, 2025

A recent argument between Jeff and Wes now manifests itself in the form of an episode, wherein they present their case before the honorable(?) judge Mike as to which big cat truly reigns as the king. Sorry for any audio issues, we recorded packed around a small table in a big echoey room with thin walls and construction work happening outside. Hope it sounds okay! Take your food to the next level with Graza Olive Oil. Visit https://graza.co/TOOTH and use promo code TOOTH today for 10% off of TRIO! For a limited time only, get 35% off plus an additional 50% off your first order when you head to Smalls.com and use code TOOTH. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Register today at Richfield, Utah.com. everybody, welcome to Tooth and Cloud podcast. We have... Objection. Wes Larson. Objection overruled. I'm here. Wes is here.

He is our wildlife biologist, and for no reason at all, I'd like to just point out that he specializes in bears. I do. Okay? And then... I'd also, like, for no reason whatsoever, I'd like to point out that I've written a paper about tigers and bears. Objection.

Objection sustained. And then I'm Jeff Larson. I'm Wes's younger brother and I like candy. And we have Mike Smith. Objection. You're the judge. I'm honorable judge Mike and I will be referred to. That's a demerit.

We're doing we're doing. Or I will find you in contempt of court, Jeff. For everyone annoyed with us already. We're doing like a court style. episode this time. So me and Wes, this all stems from an argument me and Wes had in India. Yes. When we were looking at tigers and I was like literally yawning. Yeah, Jeff didn't care. No. I mean, they're amazing. But Wes made the argument that they're the real kings of the jungle over lions, I think, is how it started.

Something like that. But I kind of defended lions and then I was like, you know what? We should just air it all out in an episode. Yeah. Because usually when we argue, it goes really well on this show. Yeah. And usually when we do an episode, it's more geared around animal attacks. Yeah. If you want animal encounters.

If we want to be a little. Yeah. If you're new to the podcast, this is an atypical episode for us. Our typical episodes deal with an animal attack or a negative animal encounter. What happened, the story, what people can learn from it, how you can prepare for. for it yourself. That's kind of our like our bread and butter.

Our MO. But we're trying to do more here on this show. And I think this is going to be a fun little diversion. Yeah, let's do it. And we tried to put some guardrails around it so it doesn't get too heated.

And I, can I just make a concession right off the top? Like, or not a concession, something that I think we should just put out there. I posted a video of a huge tiger and I said something about how I think they're the kings of the jungle.

We know that lions don't technically live in the jungle. Let's just get that out of the way. This is like... A couple of them do. A couple of them do, but this is like a phrase, king of the jungle is just like a term, you know? And the term jungle actually comes from Sanskrit and it means like arid land.

So it doesn't, like jungles, it's term, the term has changed over the years. So just let's get that out of the way. We know that lions aren't jungle cats. What is, isn't a rapper called like... Something a concrete jungle. Yeah. It's like the concrete jungle.

Yeah. In New York City. Yeah. I think like the more modern... Biggie said that problem. The more modern term for jungle is like a lot of interwoven plants and dense undercover and understory and whatnot. And so like, yeah, a city can kind of almost be a jungle. Also, I want to say we are currently recording in the Galapagos.

We are. Together. We just got off of a dive boat. Yeah. Shout out. We were supposed to have 50 dives. I had 12. So once I told some of our fellow divers, they were pretty surprised.

Yeah, you did great. My ears aren't really doing great. Welcome to my world, dude. There's a good chance that I won't hear Wes's rebuttals. I'm just going to keep going with what I'm saying. I think that's what happens anyways. Even if your ears were working perfectly, I don't think you'd really hear them. All right.

So, yeah. So, yeah, we're going to do kind of like a court setup. Mike's the judge. Yeah. So your honor. I have a, wait, before we start,

I have one more thing. Quick correction corner, before I forget it. Wow. Okay. A Romanian episode where we talked about the man whose wife

was killed in front of him by the bear. I did learn since then and I should have done a little more research into this. There actually is bear spray in Romania. It's not widely used and it's not widely educated

that it's an effective deterrent, but you can get bear spray in Romania. And I had said that you couldn't. So just so everyone knows, That is possible. One other quick correction. I object. One other quick correction from that episode.

I think I made a comment that kind of made it seem like I was insinuating that all Romani people were Romanian. And that's not true. The Romani culture is very different. It's separate from general Romanian culture. There are a lot of Romani people are over the world. There are a fair amount of Romani people in Romania, but I didn't want to, I didn't want to like, yeah, probably. I didn't want to make the insinuation. that that is like Romanian culture.

Well, I think, yeah, Rome is insinuating that they have the Romani's, right? Sure. That's weird. How many times an hour do you think of the Roman Empire? I never. I think Rome needs to issue a correction corner. Yeah, fair help. I thought about it a bit last night, but we'll get into that.

Oh, shit. Yeah. Well, are we ready to go? Get this shindig underway. Yeah. I forgot my gavel. I don't have a gavel. That's fine.

Just bank, just do this. You can use my big old water bottle. Order in the court, Jeff. All rise, please. Put him in contempt. Court is now in session. Please be seated. Well, good evening, everyone.

My name is Judge Mike Smith. I'll be presiding over court today. Could the two parties please introduce yourselves and who you're defending? Yeah, I'm Wesley Larson. I'm a lawyer. And I'll be defendants. defending the tiger.

I'm Jeff Larson. I'm not a lawyer, but I'll be representing myself. And your client. Judge Mike Smith, I will be defending the lion. Honorable Judge Mike Smith. Honorable. Yeah. The tiger is my client.

I feel like you missed a real good and easy play to the jury there, West, by not introducing yourself as a biologist. Oh, yeah, I should have. Yeah, it would have been a real, real solid move. But anyway, any issues that need addressing, I know this is opening an avenue up for more banter that isn't needed, but anything else that needs to be said before we get into this. I'm good to go. All right.

Let's move to opening statements then. I would like everyone to just know, I do still currently have two assholes. Okay. I'm glad we got out of way. A play for sympathy. Objection. It could work, Your Honor. Overrule.

Honor, I would like to say this is my strongest objection of the entire case. No, it's important to know. Thanks, Jeff. Okay, let's move on to opening statements. And I'm going to start with you, Jeff, since you kind of seem like this is the episode stem from your feelings. It feels like mostly. So I want you to be, I want you to make your opening gambit first. In the defensive lions.

In the defensive lions. Okay. So I want to start out with just personal experience and feelings towards the animals. So this last year we were lucky enough to be able to visit Africa and lion, I guess, or, Visit Africa and sea lions and also visit Indian Sea Tigers. If you're doing like a weird calendar in the last year we have. Sure, the last 12 months. Yeah.

Yeah. And to me, what impressed me most about both environments was how much the animals in Africa just lived in constant fear. And every guide you asked like, why is that? It's because of lions. Like elephants don't sleep laying down. And like, if they do, it's really rare. And the guides would say that's because they're afraid of lions. When you watch a giraffe drink water, it's just like looking everywhere and then does the splits.

I don't know. It's just like that thing's huge. And it just feels like lions are in complete control of their environment. And everything's afraid of it. It was cool seeing the two female, the lionesses, kind of just lazing on. some trees and there was nothing even like getting close to any of them there was a watering hole the giraffe was like very skittishly drinking from but they were they were beautiful but also obviously very I feel like you're getting into an argument more than an opening statement

that's fine but whatever proceed that's not to say tight things are obviously afraid of tigers sure you know but to me I just liked how they controlled their environment lines are the king of jungle final closing state I'd like to start by saying I have a rebuttal to his argument, but I'm going to save it for that part of my presentation here. This opening statement probably shows why I would never be a great lawyer, because I want to start out by saying, I'm not convinced I'm completely right in this argument. Objection. The reason for that is the more I thought about this, the more I feel like the things we usually rely on to win these arguments, things like size,

overall size, skull structure, weapons, bite force, don't really apply too much here because these two cats are pretty close to the same size. They have pretty similar jaws, they have pretty similar skulls. I'm going to highlight the reason that I think the tiger has a slight edge isn't its physiology, isn't its body, I think it's behavior. I think the king of the jungle is going to be the cat that has the most dominant and aggressive behavior, the best predatory skills, and is generally tougher. And in my mind, that cat is the tiger. And that's what I aim to prove in my argument. All right? I'd like to just say in response to that, what I was most worried about in my defense was them not living in the jungle and them being smaller. So I'm really happy to just let Wes keep going.

I'd also like to state that I do think a pride of lions is the most dominant and effective group of predators on land anywhere. So I'm not here to argue that a pride of lions isn't more dominant than a tiger, a single tiger. Yeah, that's great for me. But for my argument, I will be looking at a male lion versus a male type. Cage match style. Yes. Okay. Yeah, I got something for you there.

All right. Take it away, Jeff. I feel like I should have the opening argument because it directly rebutes his opening. Okay. Well, let's go. Is that all right? Sure. Yeah.

I love what you've said so far. Okay. Perfect. Again, I'm not fully convinced. No, that's great. LinkedIn is pretty amazing at helping you grow your small business. We cannot make your email response time faster. We can help you sell market and hire in one place.

We cannot help you find space for your three desk drinks. Why do you have three? And while we can't help you find the perfect volume for your presentation video, LinkedIn can help you find the perfect audience for your business. Grow your small business on LinkedIn. Learn more at LinkedIn.com slash small business. I knew that Jeff was going to talk about how the lion dominates its environment. I knew that he was very impressed by that when we're in Africa.

All of our guides did say those things. All of our guides said those things in India as well. There wasn't a single animal that they pointed to that they said that tigers don't kill. We learned about how all of the animals do have to adjust their behavior based on the lion's behavior, but I would argue that's based on a group of lions behavior, not on a single lion. And I think this is a simple concept. It highlights a top-down effect that any alpha predator will have on its environment. So I think lions are the alpha predators of the African plants, for sure.

I think tigers are the alpha predators of all the different environments they inhabit. Everything from the mountains of Russia to the jungles of Sumatra, tigers are the alpha predators, nothing that kills tigers to predate on them. I think this is a flat argument. I don't think there's any water to it, because if that's all that matters, I think there's better examples of that. And the one that I think is the best example is a jaguar. Because both tigers and lions have things that they have to be.

careful with, elephants being the main one in both of their respective environments. Like, there are groups of lions that have killed elephants. There are single tigers that have killed elephants, but they have to be cautious of elephants. A jaguar has no thing, there's nothing in its environment that it's worried about, aside from other jaguars and people. So if we're arguing based on that alone, I think this is a mute argument we might as well call this because jaguars are more dominant of their environment than any other cat. Interesting.

So the point that I'm getting at here is that both of them do have animals that they have to side step. Lions, they have elephants, they have rhinos, Kate Buffalo. There's a lot of animals that can kill a single lion. Tigers, kind of elephants. I'm going to argue that later. Jaguars don't have an animal like that. So if we're using the way that big cats affect its environment as a way to decide this fight, I think I would give it to Jaguars.

Okay. You have a rebuttal to that, Jeff? I mean, I love Jaguars. That's a good. That's it. Yeah. Well, I would say, I have some stuff. I think he knew I was going to talk about lions specifically targeting adult elephants,

and he brought it up first. Smart. Kudos to you. Take some steam out of what I was saying. Right. But. I got 20 more about that. Christopher.

I would like the floor. Yeah. Wes, please. Shut your trap. I don't know the legal terminology to tell someone to be quiet. Could you mute his mic? Did you shut the fuck up? Christopher Everett.

He has a PhD. Wes doesn't have a PhD. He's a lawyer. Conservative scientist. Okay. Sorry, conservation. Thank you. That one was acceptable.

Conservation scientist. He documented in Matsudona National Park in Africa that a group of lions, they've always targeted baby elephants, right? They've always killed baby elephants. This group of lions and this national park started targeting adult elephants, which is crazy. When you see an adult elephant, it is like, just like the size comparison is insane to think that they would be targeting that. And I would like to put a photo. Look at this lion on top of this elephant. I would have liked you submit this piece of evidence ahead of time, but I accept it.

That's pretty crazy, actually. There's just a lion sitting on top of a huge elephant. Right. There's also another park in Botswana, where they've documented lines have keyed into hunting elephants. Wow. And from the research I did, I did not see a single tiger. that would hunt elephants. Okay.

That would target elephants as prey. And there's been two recorded groups of lions that target adult elephants as prey and African elephants are bigger than Asian elephants. So the smaller animal is taking out the bigger prey. They're taking out. It is like they hunt as a group and they can take out any animal on earth.

Right. My main argument. The other thing on here is that they target saltwater crocodiles Whenever they find them out of the water Saltwater crocodiles Or not Nile crocodiles, I'm sorry Nile crocodiles Crocodiles are like

What we always say are the most dangerous animal on earth for humans Freaking lions killing them all the time They're like 90% mouth Is that true Wes Crocodiles like a Nile crocodile saltwater crocodile Are they the most dangerous Like large animal for humans? I would say so.

Yeah. Yeah. Even, do you count snakes in that? Are they even, okay. Large animal, I would say crocodiles. Ooh. Lions are going after them? And then I would also like to, I submitted this ahead of time.

I don't know if you had a chance to see it, Your Honor. But I would also like to show some video. Yeah, sure. Of just lions hunting. Great. I think it's cool. So this is a pride of lions. Pretty big pride.

So as you can see, lions. Even female lions, which aren't as big as male lions, can take down huge prey. Size doesn't matter. These guys are going to jump on your back and bite your neck until you're just like, I'm just going to lay down. That's good to know. Your Honor, size doesn't matter. Are you ready for my rebuttal? Yes, please.

I'm thrilled Jeff brought this up. This was actually the thing I was hoping you'd bring up. Oh, you fell into his trap. Trap card. I read that paper. I read another paper, an academic paper, based on a... pride of lions in Botswana that specialized in elephants. They're killing roughly one elephant every three days. Most of those elephants, seven out of eight that they documented them killing, were

younger elephants. They're not full-sized bulls. They're not full-sized females. And an interesting thing, and this goes back to my original thing what I said, nothing is stronger than a pride of lions. these are mega prides, they're super prides. And if there was ever less than 27 lions attacking the elephant, they were unsuccessful. 27 lions is like the break even of what they needed to bring down an adult elephant. And these were, they were adult elephants, but they were younger adult elephants. I couldn't find a record of a single adult lion killing anything aside from baby elephants. That's what they were able to do.

Now, Jeff mentioned that he wasn't able to find any records of single tigers killing adult Asian elephants, which are slightly smaller than African elephants. Well, I said that... Would you like to object? Yeah, I object. Okay, sustained. I specifically said that they never targeted elephants as print. And that's where you're wrong. Just last year in 2024, just last year in 2024, wildlife officials in Jim Corbett National Park,

watched over three days as a single male tiger chased an adult elephant until on the third day they found the elephant dead and the tiger feeding on its body this tiger chased this elephant down over three days managed to kill it and ate it and I do have photos that I'd like to submit your honor sure I object sustained here's a photo we got a devastating to my argument

feeding on that adult elephant single tiger Wow. This Indian elephant that was killed, they took a weight. It was roughly the same average weight as the adult elephants that were killed by a pride of 27 lions in Botswana. So one tiger in my argument was able to do what 27 lions, and again 27s that break-even point, are able to do. And again, Your Honor, I have no qualms with his argument that a pride of lions is a dominant predatory force, the most dominant in the world, but I would argue that a single lion cannot do what a single

tiger has been proven to do, and that's take down an adult elephant. And if you can find any evidence that shows that a single lion can do that, I will gladly withdraw my argument. Thank you, Your Honor. I would just like to point out that the average-sized elephant that these lions are taking down, I mean, that's a lot of young elephants. So the average isn't going to be that big. But they're taking down. some that are much bigger than the average. They are. But like this tiger, a single tiger,

killed the average size that 27 lines will kill. I respect that tiger. That's good to know. Okay, well, Jeff, you've made some compelling arguments. You've got some empirical and some anecdotal evidence. Would you like to call any witnesses to the stand or present any more evidence to the court? Yeah.

Do we not have a lot more arguments? Oh, we've got a lot more, but I'm just. I'm wanting what's, I want Jeff to, I feel like maybe I should, Your Honor, if I may make a suggestion. Sure. Maybe the next argument I should present and he should rebut, just so we kind of do it back and forth. Uh-huh. Are you okay with that, Your Honor? Okay.

I mean, he offered to let me bring someone in. If you'd like to bring someone in, I will say, go for it. Okay. Okay. Oh, lions are terrified. Are you kidding? You mean, tigers are bright orange. I could see those things a mile away.

Order and order in the course. Lions look just like the brown grass they lay in. I can never see them anywhere. They kill me with one bite. All right. I'd like to also ask to bring in a witness. Please. That witness is the Honorable Judge Mike Smith.

I'm here for it. Can ask you a question? Hand on the Bible. When we were in India, what was the biggest most imposing animal that you saw? Oh, man. The male tiger that we saw near the end of our safari time in Tadoba, it felt like it was about, it wasn't, but it looked to my eye like it could just flip our car over. I like that answer. It's huge. Let me rephrase the question. What was the biggest, most intimidating ungulate that we saw? Gower, right.

And with that gower, do you think it was, aside from elephants and giraffes, bigger than pretty much anything we saw in Africa? I would say so. Are you aware that tigers routinely hunt and kill individual gower, an individual tiger? I was not aware. It's true. It's actually one of their main prey species in the parks that we visited. Those things are ripped. They're huge.

You're dismissed. Mike? Thank you. I would like to question him as well. Okay. Yeah. Cross-examine. I'm here.

Would you say that you were impressed with the size of a water buffalo? Yeah, I would. Your Honor, did you see any water buffalo? African Cape buffaloes. African Cape Buffalo? Yes, I was. Would you say that the size of a Guar compared to an African Cape Buffalo

is significantly different? I would give the clear edge to the Guar, but I'm not going to say that it's any more or less dangerous. I would like to just say a single lion has killed African Cape Buffalo, which I would say are pretty similar to a guire. I think they're more aggressive too. They kill a lot more people.

And they have bigger horns, right? Bigger helmet horns? Yes, sir. Okay. And then I'd also like to just point out. Your Honor, I'd like to object to you arguing on the case of... On what grounds, less? When you visited Africa, what was the most intimidating animal you saw?

The lion. I'll take that, yeah. So for an African elephant? All right. Interesting. Okay. At first, I didn't think it was real. I woke up to this blinding light, and I was trans.

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I'd like to submit another argument, please. Okay, let's go. I'd like to argue tigers are solitary animals. again, I think I'm going to base my main argument on behavior. They spend their entire lives hunting for themselves. This has led to them evolving to be some of the most effective predators on earth. Lions rely on their social structure, on pride cooperation for hunting. They're a highly social animal.

It's an extremely effective strategy for their evolution. I think it's really worked well for them. But not every lion has to develop the killing skills, the hunting prowess, the solitary nature of a tiger. And so I do think behaviorally, that's a big difference between these two species. I think lions very much rely on their social structure for their survival, whereas a tiger only has itself to rely on.

Okay. It's lonely at the top. It is. When you're king? When you're king. I'm not trying to sway the jury at all right. That was a pretty good argument. Because I feel like he's pushing really the one-on-one factor.

Sure. In a cage match. No, it wasn't. It was just Lions v. Tiger. No, you said cage match at the beginning. Like, this is a cage match. Because when I said the pride thing, I said, I will not argue. Which is the king of the joke.

Right. But then I said, I'm not arguing the Pride Alliance. And you said, okay, a cage match. Well, I was just saying that's what you were saying. I'm not saying that's how it has to be. Okay, sure. That would be crazy. I think we might agree.

So what I'm saying is in tooth and claw, we use. Use cage match, right? And it's typically 1 v1. But sometimes we will expand those rules to like a hunger games type setting. Sure. I think once you get up to eight lions versus eight tigers, the advantage turns to the lions because the lions are going to hunt together. I fully agree.

And the tigers aren't going to be able to do that. Sure. I 100% 30 lions versus 30 tigers. I'm putting all my money on. Lions. I am as well. What's the... So if we change the rules of cage match, so it's not quite one-on-one,

which is more like what it is in nature. Sure. What was that question? Then Lions with. Ten billion lions versus the sun. Who are you taken? Is that the question? Maybe it's a king of the jungle.

Yeah, there we go. Again, Your Honor, I'm not here to argue that a pride of lions beats even a similar-sized group of tigers. I 100% agree with that argument. That, for me, was never the argument. My argument is that a single adult male tiger will be a single adult male lion. I'd like to ask him a question. Okay.

In nature, do you think that it'd be more likely that a tiger encounters a single lion by itself or a pride of lions? A pride of lions. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Well, that's a good question. I like that question. It seems like we're arguing down parallel tracks, not quite towards the

same destination. I'd like to give some facts about lions. All right. I would still, before we get into that, I would still like to assert that if we're talking about dominance over their environment, I still think the tiger is just as dominant.

A single tiger is just as dominant as a pride of lions over their environment. Okay. Ooh, I disagree. Sure. I want to hear why. Well, I think a pride of lions is the most dominant predator on the plant. You're right. I would draw that argument.

I would like to pull upon a wildlife biologist by Wes Larson, who has stated a pride of lions. I will agree with that. That's permissible in court. Okay, so some facts. One of the facts that I think is most impressive about lions. So Wes is right. They lose a tiny bit in bite force.

They lose a tiny bit in size if you're taking the biggest male lion compared to the biggest male tiger. And especially more so if you take the biggest female lion, compared to the biggest female tiger I think significance even is a bit more illustrated but what they lose in that size they gain in speed because they're the

fourth fastest land animal on earth tied with a wilder beast I should say so four and fifth wilder the wilder people so I don't know I just think that's really fast so like if the lion's losing to the tiger

it can run away. Like Neo in the Matrix? Sure. I agree with that. Learn how to fight a bit more and come back and fight again. Lions would be great at running away from tigers. I'd say the lions are more like Agent Smith, though.

They just have like a billion of them against one Neo. The biggest recorded lion ever shot was 825 pounds in Mount Kenya. Yeah. I did find a different source that said that was $690, though, so I would not like to be quoted on that. Just throw them. They're typically 330 to 550. Okay.

And then another one is just, yes, both male cats have mains. We saw a tiger with a pretty good main actually. But mains are a visual sign of dominance. That's their main purpose, is to show dominance over other cats. Yeah. So the lion's dominating the tiger in the main off. In the hair game, for sure. Like the biggest male tiger's mane is a lot bigger than biggest male tiger.

But wouldn't you think that the tiger doesn't need any like flashy outward shows of dominance? The tiger's just a little more self-confident. I was about to make that argument. I don't know. I think the best kings throughout history haven't had to prove that they're the best kings with like expensive outerwear and whatnot. I think they've just shown through power and, you know, through being good leaders that they're good kings. I also have one more section I want to bring up. I don't know if I should do it now or. Well, I think I should be able to rebut. I think I should be able to rebut. I think I should be able to rebut. I like that what Jeff just said. I agree with a lot of it.

I again, I'm not going to go into physical attributes because I think they're close enough to where it doesn't really matter. I think a good comparison for me is even like grizzly bears and polar bears where grizzly bears are generally smaller than polar bears. bears, they have similar physiology, but because grizzly bears are so much more aggressive and have to kind of defend their food much more commonly and whatnot, they usually are able to push polar bears off of kills. And I think the one place- Especially a pride of grizzly things. Yeah, I think something, again, I'm not arguing the pride thing. I agree with you 100% on that. The thing that I would say is Jeff just brought up their mains. And in my mind, this was always kind of my big, point that I didn't want him to bring up because I do think a main is really good protection in the fight.

And that's part of the reason they have mains. It protects their neck. It makes it harder for an animal to get a good kill on them. And I think that goes into my next point, which is, well, you know, I'm going to leave it. I just want to say that I'm not going to argue any kind of physical facts with Jeff. I think it's irrelevant. And that's my closing argument with that. Okay. I'm going to need one second.

I'll go ahead and make my argument. Take a five minute recess for Jeff. I need to open one more week. It's probably my turn to go first anyway. That's true. What do you got? What I want to argue right now is fighting experience. So it was actually an argument I wasn't going to bring up because I thought it would go squarely to lions.

The social nature of lions means they find themselves fighting quite a bit. They're constantly fighting for dominance. Like amongst each other. Amongst other lions. Male lions have to go through lots of fights throughout their life to prove themselves as a dominant breeding lion. That's just part of their social structure. They fight a lot. And to me, that seemed like a big checkmark in lion's favor. But as I read things from different big cat experts, it actually made me think this might be a bit of a detriment for lions. And here's why. Lions spend a lot of time

fighting, but it's exactly that. It's dominance fighting. And those lions aren't necessarily trying to kill each other. They're just battling to exert dominance. So basically they'll fight until one of the lions, it's like says I've had enough and walks away, but they're trading swats, they're fighting each other, they're not necessarily trying to kill each other. But a tiger, because it's solitary, really the only time they ever fight with other animals, they're trying to kill that other animal. So tigers become very good at killing stuff as quickly as possible. They don't just like trade a bunch of blows and try and disable that animal. They try and kill it. So these big cat experts talked about how tigers, when they have fought lions throughout history,

you know, whether in captivity or in the wild, they just generally go straight for the kill while the lion is really focused on just trying to kind of beat up the tiger. Okay. Do tigers fight other tigers very often? Not that often. Often when two male tigers come in to like close quarters with each other, it's more of like outward expressions of dominance, not so much battling. When they do battle, they often get up on their back legs and trade some swats and stuff. But it's not nearly at the level that lions have to fight to exert dominance.

I don't have a rebuttal. I think that's a good point. And I think they are faster at killing. Like lions sometimes eat things alive, even like a bear. Okay, so my next point kind of goes with my last one about the main. I'm just thinking of things that I think the lion does a bit better than the tiger. Okay. and I think the lion of any animal has the most intimidating noise.

I think they have the best roar of any cat, and I think it beats any animal's intimidation. It's a lion's roar, and I'd like to submit my last video to the people. So this is a lion. They're eating a hippo. A huge Nile crocodile comes up. It wants a little chunk of hippo. And then you see the alpha male of the Pride say,

you ain't getting none of this. Today, the Pride's protector has earned his key. I'd like to say I don't agree with this narrator's narration. It's Samuel Jackson. It's pretty sweet. I just think it's cool that a saltwater crocodile in the water. Nile crocodile. Sorry, I keep saying that.

A Nile crocodile in the water was like two in tithe. intimidated by the, what do you say alpha, or what would it? Yeah, the dominant male. The dominant male roar to like make it back up. It's cool. Yeah, hearing a lion's roar is, I've only heard it maybe once at the Hogle Zoo, like a full tilt roar. Yeah. And it kind of like you feel your rib cage.

Yeah. Rattle. It's pretty impressive. It's a great roar. And I do want to say earlier, too, to your point about crocodiles, tigers do kill mugger crocodiles and sometimes even saltwater crocodiles. As far as the roar goes, we've also all heard tiger roars. They're pretty impressive.

And they're actually a little bit different from lion roars. They produce an infrasonic sound that has been shown to penetrate solid objects like bones, which is why people report feeling the tiger roar. And this low frequency sound has been shown to cause drowsiness, vibration of internal organs, chills, and even depression. and they think that tigers sometimes use it to actually paralyze their prey right before killing it. No way. Yeah.

So I would argue that tigers actually have the most impressive roar of all the big cats. Yeah, lions, do they have infrared? I don't know. Superonic. Whatever that was. I don't agree. I don't know that research.

I wish he would have shared that with us. Right. That's not how this works. We're striking that from the record. But I don't know. Just from my experience hearing both roars, I think a lion... I think to our frequency of what we hear as humans, a lion roar does sound more impressive.

I think this infrasonic part of a tiger roar is what gives it the edge to me. Sure. Yeah. Kingley. Crack a Cayman Jack Margarita and taste your escape. It's America's number one for a reason.

Kaman Jack is a premium. and Mont Beveridge with flavors. Please drink responsibly. Camman Jack beverage company, Chicago, Illinois. I'd like to, or do you have a section you want to move to? I have one more argument before my closing statements. Do you want me to go first or do you want to go first? I'll go first.

Okay. All right, let's go. I'd like talk a little bit about the history between these two species. So I'm going to start with the biologist and the curator of the Big Cats at the Smithsonian Museum. His name's Craig Sappho. He's an expert on their history. He was interviewed by this group called Life's Little Mysteries, and he said in ancient Rome there were actually a lot of recorded fights between these two species,

and that records show that the tiger more often than not would emerge the victor. There's also been a number of modern fights in captivity. You can find a lot of these videos. There's like a 10-minute compilation of them fighting. To me, it looks fairly evenly matched in a lot of these. I'm just going to go ahead and say that. There's not like a clear victor in these captains. activity fights, but apparently in ancient Rome there was. There was also supposedly a ruler in

India that had a tiger that killed 30 different lions. I can't find any actual documentation of that. I will say, to my opponent's point, and I do think this is a checkmark for lions, but I do think I have to say it. These two animals did used to exist sympathically in India. There are currently lions in India, but they don't live in tiger habitat. They did use to share habitat. hat. And there is one record that's like on the record, it's verified of a British group of soldiers that saw these two fighting in the wild. And the fight went on for a very long time, but the lion did emerge the victor in that fight. But there are a lot of tales of tigers also merging the victor, especially in captivity.

It's like Cori Antimer and shit. All right. That's my argument. Gem, do you want to rebut? I would just say, you know, I'm putting it, you put a question mark on it, I'm putting a bigger one on that one, tiger killing 30 lions. Yeah. I'd like to know the conditions of those lions, were they male, were they female, was the tiger a male? It seems like the tiger had home court advantage. The Roman Empire was my main argument there. Like the cockfights where one has a razor and one doesn't type of situation.

They have built-in racers. I don't think anyone's taping racers. I'm just wondering. I feel like if you think cockfights are always completely fair, more power to you. I don't. I completely agree with you. There's a lot of money. I don't think there's too much we can put on that.

Yeah. And that's why it was my last argument. Great. My last argument, can I question the judge? Please. Your honor's Michael Smith. Yes. So, pop culture.

Right? Disney's done a movie with a tiger. Yep. And with a lion. One's called the Lion King. Yes. One's called the Jungle Book. Would you say Mufasa projects more confidence than Shirk can?

Confidence? It feels like a different kind of kind of. I'm like much more afraid of Shire Khan, I'm going to say. Mufasa seems like... But who's more in control? Be fatherly. Mufasa. Who dies?

That's true. That's also true. Mufasa, he projects a good image. I'll say that. Mufusufus. He controls his environment Kind of. All it takes is like him to die

And suddenly everything goes to shit. Yeah, he gets smoked by his brother. Yeah, without an alpha line. Remind me how Shir Khan gets foiled West. Shat Khan gets foiled when Mowgli ties a burning stick to his tail As he's fighting blue. And that he doesn't like fire. Fires his weakness.

He runs off. That's the last we see of Shurkan. I think I'm given this little match to Mufus of that. I will say, though, Sharkhan's big thing is he doesn't like people. Yeah. Like, people are always problems for the jungle. And we see him as the villain. When we look back through history, like Shurkan kind of had the right idea.

Shurkan knew that, like, the more people that were around, the worst things we're going to get for animals. And so, for me, that's, like, true king shit right there. Recognizing the true enemy. Meanwhile, Mufasa just wants to fight with his brother. I'd like to just show a picture of both. Here's a picture of Shirkaw? I love Shirkon. Yeah, he's got the J-Leno chin.

And then... Mufasa's more handsome. I can already tell you that. Here's a picture of Mufasa. Just based off those pictures, who would you pick? I'd also like to submit two photos. A photo of Shircon. Oh, the claws.

That's bad. And then I'd also like to submit... Would you tell the audience what you... Yeah, it's Shur Khan looking at his... claws as he looks down at him and then i have one also of mufasa here she con's kind of like a sassy showman with that yeah here is a photo of mufossa that i'd like to submit to the court that's that's mufasa falling into a group of wildebeest looking absolutely terrified that's actually another point i had that i marked as just like facts i think but didn't look up uh-huh i think

lions are a little bit better at climbing trees. I think you're probably right. They're both pretty similar though. That's important for a king. I will say that I do think lions have better PR. I think Disney's done a really good job pushing the lion is king argument, you know? And I wasn't done questioning. Okay.

Mike, if you're working in sales, are you going to compare your top salesman to a lion or a type? I thought isn't always like wolves going after sheep? Isn't that the... It's normally lions and sales. Like, this guy's a lot. Like, be a liar. I've never seen a king be preoccupied with sales. I mean, if you want to be the top salesperson in your office,

you've got to really just be as much a lion as you. I'll also, I'd like to submit, though, that I think some of the most toxic people in our modern society, like toxic men, toxic countries, are obsessed with lions. Lions are like their animal that they compare themselves to, what they tattoo, what they love. It's like that, to me, they become associated with, I think, some of the worst people on Earth. Okay. Do you think those people are often in positions of power?

I think they would like to be. I think they're people that chase power. So they view lions as power. I think they view lions as dominant powerful animals. I view lions. They're misguided people. Yeah. I view him as dominant, powerful animals.

I'd love to submit my closing argument. Yeah, I'd love to hear it. Okay, Your Honor. As I researched this, I did find myself second-guessing tigers a few times. Also finding that most big cat researchers do tend to give tigers the slight advantage when talking about hypothetical fights between single animals. Again, I think if we are arguing a pride of lions versus a group of tigers or a pride of lions versus a single tiger, I 100% concede that lions are the more dominant animal.

One-on-one, I think it's a very close fight. I think that both of these animals are the kings of their respective environments. That being said, if we were to do a cage match right now between a big male Bengal tiger and a big male African lion, and if I had to watch, which I wouldn't want to, and place a bet, I would put my money on the tiger, and I will rest my cage. on that. I would also put my money on the tiger. Tiger will win one on one.

But I think Wes is doing something very clever right now, where he's slightly changing the original argument that we had to a cage match argument. I thought that's what it was. I thought it was. Why? I thought it was like which is stronger. I thought it was which is stronger, Tiger or Lionel. No.

The argument has always been which one control. their environment the most. No, it was which is the king of the jungle. Right. Right. So to me, that's like if these two animals meet in the jungle and they fight, which one wins. No. I always argued that lions control their environment more than tigers and control their

environment, which is how this all started. And I disagree with that. Okay. I still do. So, in a lion's environment, they hunt in prize. Right? Wes has already admitted a pride of lions is superior to the equal amount of tigers but hunting solo. So in the wild, lions are the king of the jungle.

Because Wes himself admits he admitted himself that a pride of lions beats the equal amount of tigers. The whole argument came from which. animals impacts their environment the most which animal controls their environment the most this isn't a cage match i would this is these animals in their habitats which one is dominating their habitats and it's the lion you heard it from west himself your honor objection that was clever too objection uh sustained i would i would argue that that was one of his main arguments which animal dominates its environment more i think our original argument though was which of these animals was king of the jungle.

Well, here's what I'm going to say. I would like to say to that, I would never have said a lion would be a tiger one-on-one in a cage match. I don't think that's an argument. So, like, that was never my point. So here's what I'm going to say. At this point, it doesn't matter

what the original argument was. Right. Because we're going to turn it over to the jury, the listeners. You're going to have to all write in with your comments, telling us who you think won. But who won what? Exactly. We need to establish what the The whole thing was always King of the jungle. King of the jungle.

Let's just say that. No. King of the jungle. Interpret that however you want. You've both made compelling arguments one-on-one, Wes. Made me think that the tiger's the king of the jungle if we're talking just one. Jeff does a great job arguing that if it's a pride of lions. It's not an argument. I agree with that.

Sure. But like, to me, a lion or a king, I guess I should specify, is someone who kind of delegates their responsibility. I think that's a great point. The male lion is kind of kingly sitting there being like, go do the hunting, go do the fighting, I'll step in if needed. That's a great point.

It's a great point. I'm going to say now, though, I think it's the Jaguar. That's a strong argument for that. Well, are you in? Wes, I mean, his opening statement or wherever that came in, I was like, you know what? This argument's kind of over for me.

It's the Jaguar. But we're really interested in hearing what everyone else thinks, and we'll tally it up. Yeah, to the best of our abilities and see who wins. Not loving your AT&T or T Mobile Bill. Yeah, we've been hearing that a lot. Good news.

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It must provide a recent consumer mobile bill. My name of the person, regained me the deal. Additional terms, conditions, and restrictions apply. Speaking, like going into categories now, speaking of what everyone else thinks, I posted a video recently of a huge tiger that we saw in India, and I got a lot of responses on that video, and I'd love to just read a few of them.

Yeah. You guys will allow me. Let's do it. Just because I, you know, we just brought up what everyone else thinks, and I think people have very strong opinions about this. So here's a few. This one says, they're considered kings of the jungle because of their mains. Read a fucking book.

To you. Interesting. Interesting. It's got a good point. This one just says, your thing is huge. That's good. This one says, Ronaldo is 40 years old playing in Saudi. Messi is close to retirement.

And all of you people still flaming each other on lion versus tiger. Both are majestic, endangered, and a rich dentist with a bow can kill them both easily. That's a good point. Rinaldo and Messi. Lions aren't really endangered. Tigers kind of are. They both, they both, though. Lions have like 30,000.

30,000, but they're threatened. Yeah. They're protected. Yeah. Lions live for glory, honor, and dominance. Protecting their family and territory, mainly battles during his life. Many battles during his life. Tigers are just lonely cats in jungle.

Okay. You know, maybe dentists are the king of the jungle. It's amazing how many people are arguing about this garbage, and some dis lions or tigers in the process. Like, bro, tell me the last time a lion or tiger paid your rent. Do kings do that? I don't know. I mean, kings. Well, whatever.

This is a good one. A tiger is not typically considered the king of the jungle because the title is primarily associated with lions due to their social behavior, living in pride groups and cultural symbolism that links them with royalty and power, even though tigers are incredibly strong predators, essentially the king title is more about cultural perception than just raw strength or size. Source, porn hub. That's permissible in court.

Tiger mostly attacks from behind, but lion always attacks from front. That's made lion a king. That's not true. Not true at all. I got a couple more. Do you think either lion or tiger cares on who is called king by a weaker race that they can break like a twig? Is that a point?

A king always... I think we're proven. A king always remains the king. He owns the clown. Lions are kings. I don't think kings always remain a king. I think that's at that point. Yeah, often they...

Even in lions, they kill the king a lot. There's lots of short kings that said, like, it's all about attitude, not about size. there's probably like 30 of those. I had a point that I didn't bring up about UFC fighters. Uh-huh. Like, it's always this short, stocky guys that end up winning it all. Like, Kabeb versus McGregor.

Right. And that guy who Sean O'Malley just lost, too, from, like, Georgia, the country. Right. That's just, like, short stocky. There's one more I wanted to do. You know what? I think that song does a lot of heavy lifting for lions. The In the Jungle, the Mighty Jungle.

But the tigers, I didn't want to bring that up because tigers have eye of the tiger, which is pretty good. That's a good song. I got one more here. That's a good. We should have brought that up. Why? I guess we just did. Lion equals kingpin.

Tiger equals John Wick. See different? Yeah, I guess I do see different. So, lion's the kingpin, tigers John Wick. Well, I don't know. That's a good point. I do see the difference. I kind of agree with that.

Kingpin's like delegating but can still really mess someone up. But one tiger just rips through a million people. I don't know that. Even in a cage match, I think I might take Kingpin. Well, yeah, that's true. All right. So we got some more categories. One other one I came up with, I wanted to ask you guys, like,

I think if you make an action movie with animals, like tiger and lion are both going to be like the two big leads in it. So I'm curious of an action movie that you guys like where there's two big leads that face off. I mean, I've done this before, and I know it's annoying. It's boxing and not action. Yeah, that counts. We'll count it.

Rocky versus even Yvonne Drago and Rocky 4 is my favorite all-time, like head-to-head fight against like two tough guys. I think it's the best. Ends the Cold War. It does. Rocky wins. He wins it for us in Russia. Also just U.S. versus Russia.

Like Soviet Union. And the fight takes place in Russia. They're cheering for Rocky by the end. It's inspiring. Eye of the Tiger. Oh, yeah. I had to go with point break. Keanu Reeves and Patrick Swayze.

I feel like they're like the perfect line in Tiger too, where they kind of respect each other and love each other, even though they're on opposite sides of the fence. So that's my pick. You know, I really don't get to talk about this enough, but I would say face off. So Nick Cage starts off as, the bad guy. He hides a nuke in

L.A. Yeah. Right? Only his brother knows about it. Yep. So, Pallelix. Luckily, John Travolta, who's taller and fatter, is able to switch faces with Nick Cage and become Nick Cage

essentially. Yeah, it goes really well for him. But Nick Cage, Castor Troy, wakes up mid-surgery, makes the doctors give him John Travolta's face, which was never in the plan. And so now he the bad guy, they think he's a good guy.

He's like having sex with Nick Cage's wife. Nick Cage has to go to a jail where he wears magma boots. But at the end they face off. Yeah. Like for real. Yeah, that's great. Metaphorically. Also, shout out to Predator.

Because it's like Schwarzenegger at that point was so like just on top of like the action hero game that it's like we need a literal alien. for him to like have a true competitor. It would have been great if Van Dam was, he ended up playing the Predator because he was originally cast. That would have been a great face off. Shout out also,

The Rock versus Vin Diesel. Yeah, that's a good one. Fast and Furious. Oh, that's great in five. Yeah. Stombs through the. The real faceoff happened before in like the legal negotiation

for how many punches they were allowed to land on each other. That's how you know someone's like a true. Alpha male. Yeah. As if that's lion behavior right there. If it's written in their contract, they can't get punched more than six times. All right.

And then we're just going to do, Jeff asked for listener questions about this topic. So I think we'll just go into a bunch of those to wrap this up. You know what I like is when MJ calls Peter Parker Tiger and Spider-Man. Yeah. That's a cool. I will. I want to say something before I forget to say this to. I'm not an expert on either of these animals.

I did write a paper about tigers. but it was like they were a subject in the paper, not like the focus of the paper necessarily. So if there's anything I got wrong, I think I just want to like give myself immunity from my biologist title on this one. Sure. Because this wasn't, these aren't animals that I specialize in.

I'd like the record to reflect, I am an expert. I actually co-hosts a wildlife podcast that's like maybe the biggest wildlife podcast. Yeah. So I think I actually am an expert on this. Okay. I agree with what Jeff thinks about himself.

I think so far from tooth and claw stories, lions have been more dominant than tigers. That makes sense. Right? The Lions Asana. They got better PR. Well, no. From our,

yeah, we really haven't. The Chompawatt Tiger. We're going to do the Chompawatt Tiger, and we're also going to talk about the book, The Tiger from John Valiant, which is about an Amur Tiger that pretty much like took out some vengeance on people. John Wick.

But the Chompawat Tiger, is famous for being the animal, like the single animal that's killed the most people. Sure, but we haven't told them. We haven't yet. So I'm saying our listener experience so far, I would say they should think lions are more down there. Our only dedicated tiger episode so far has been like our first available episode,

which is Tatiana. Yeah. We did. Just killed like a kid. That's nothing. Just 12 feet out of her enclosure. John Carlos or whatever his name was. Yeah.

I did one on the Korean peninsula having tigers like. like before World Wars. Yeah. No, some cool history for both of them. All right. You got some questions for us? Yeah, I do. Rachel K. Areza asked which has a higher success rate for hunting?

A pride of lions, I would guess, has a higher success rate than a single tiger. I know tigers are kind of high, though. They do pretty high. Yeah, I don't, I'm not sure. Okay. I think they both are pretty good at killing stuff. From what I read, Lions, last time I looked at this, lions are like 30% actually, and I would guess the tigers are higher than that.

So if I had to guess right now, I'd actually guess tigers. Here's a good one for tigers, I think maybe. Do tigers scavenge like lions do? Not often. No, they will, but not nearly at the level that lions do. Actually, though, I kind of think scavenging shows dominance over the land, too. Like, you get things off of a kill and you just take the work of other animals. Like T-Rex scavenged.

You think T-Rex wasn't the king of the jungle? I don't know. Did they? How do we know that? They think that T-Rex scavenged. Dude, how do we know any? So I guess that's the next question. Tigers will scavenge, but they don't do it at the same level that lions do.

B. Cortna, 23. I do respect not scavenging, but I don't think scavenging is like, I think it's kind of impressed. Our arguments are over. We don't have to. Well, I'm just saying. I mean, I'm reading listener questions. of a thing I said Lions versus Tigers

which is the king of the jungle That's fair Okay B Cortna 23 What about queen of the jungle Isn't that kind of lionesses? Feels like lionesses are pulling a lot of weight For lions

But I mean Wes's argument holds up Even more so I think with females Like a female tiger is beating A female lion one on it I would agree What about the matriarch of

a herd of elephants. So that's like, if we're just talking the most dominant animal in any of these places, it's elephants. Yeah. Like elephants are more dominant than both of these cats,

without a doubt. Do you think, though, I feel like in Africa, so they are more, like they are obviously more physically dominant. Yeah. But I would argue that elephants are more afraid of lions

than lions are afraid of elephants, like day to day. I wouldn't. I would disagree. Really? Yeah. And like even in that Botswana paper that I read, the only time the lions would ever even try to approach an elephant, those groups of elephants is when they were like kind of separated, when there was like a smaller group of elephants that were on their own. I think there is nothing more dominant than a bull elephant.

But I'm saying like their behavior throughout the day, I think elephants actively tried to avoid lions. I don't think lions are actively. Like they don't approach them. I think they're actively trying to avoid bull elephants. offense all the time. I think every other. Yeah, I'll concede TV on that. I don't know.

Which, who would, or this is from Jossela Lee Keb. Okay. Sorry about that. Whoever actually asked this. Who would you, or who would kill you faster? A lion or a tiger? Tiger. I agree.

Both are going to be pretty fast, but I'd say a tiger. They're the throat goat. That's what that means, right? Yeah. That's that. Well, this one, yeah, this one's inspired. Nancy was a tiger. Travis J. Clark, this isn't his actual answer but inspired, or my question, but inspired me.

Let's say the exact, a male lion, male tiger, because that's like, the most impressive fighter. Yeah. Exact same size. Which one wins? I'm giving it to the tiger. And again, that's kind of my argument based on their behavior. I think the tiger kills the lion before the lion kills the tiger. Yeah.

No, I'd probably agree with that. Okay. Last one. Sarah Loris asks, which would you be more scared of to encounter in the wild? Like not in a vehicle. You're just like roaming around. Without a doubt a tiger. That one's easy for me 100%.

There are like the sun bush people in the Kalahari. For a long period of their history, a big way that they go. got food was by confronting a pride of lions on a kill and they would just scare them off. Like they'd just run up and the lions would scatter and leave their kill. You can't do that to a tiger. Like a tiger would kill you. So for me, I think you can be physically imposing enough to where a lion's just like, oh, what is this?

I don't want to mess with this. And I think a tiger would kill you if you did that. Actually, one last one here. This one's great. Can't pass it up. Anna Libby asks, which one would you rather cut? with. Probably a big male lion. See, I'd say adults I'd rather cuddle with the tigers. Really? But a baby I'd rather cuddle with the lion. Their babies are cuter. I will give

them that. They're definitely cuter babies. The bigger the big male tiger we saw in to doba, it had kind of like a ponchy gut. Yeah. And it just looked like kind of soft. They are so beautiful. Yeah, that's hard for me. But like a main of the lion would be so fun. When I see a tiger, I want to touch it more than when I see a... Like, lines don't have enough hair. I agree with that. I agree with that. The stripes make me want to, like, trace them with that.

That'll be her next big argument. All sensually. And you'll just, like, pull one out that wasn't even part of the argument. Actually, it's a... Snow leopard. All right. Snow leopard's a good choice, actually. Thanks for your questions, everyone.

Jeff brought this up earlier, but I wanted to dip into conservation. quickly. It's hard to put an exact number on both of these cats, how many are left in the wild. Best estimate for tigers is about 5,500. They were much lower than that, but India especially has led the charge on tiger conservation, on establishing national parks where they're protected, on diverting money that went to hunting back into tourism, and they've rebounded really well, and they're continuing to rebound. Their main threat currently is still the traditional medicine trade and a lot of tigers are poached for their parts for their bones for their teeth and that continues to happen especially outside of protected areas lions are you like needs to really

get it together to protect tigers there's some there's some countries where they're like like extremely like critically threatened like the malay tiger the sumatran tiger the south chinese tiger are all subspecies that we'll probably see um extirated in our lifetime so I know this might be an unfair question or a leading question or something, but I know China has traditionally been viewed as maybe one of the biggest offenders of that kind of traditional medicine world. Yeah. In your experience or knowledge, is that fair to like hold that against them specifically or they know worse or better than anyone else in the world? I think this is like a big conversation that we could probably do a whole episode on. And I just want to say, I think there's a lot of value to tradition, to cultural tradition.

to people using traditional medicines because I think that speaks to like our values as people. I think the problem is is that in a lot of those countries where traditional medicine involves wild animal parts, A, I think it's wrong on an ethical level. And B, the demand has become such to where there's no way that you can do that sustainably. You just can't. Sure. And most of those medicines have been proven not to be effective. So for me, I'm trying to answer. with us in a diplomatic way. China is the main offender there. Vietnam has some issues with it.

There are countries where... That's it. Kind of just like Asian-based countries have a lot of medicinal reasons to take advantage of answers. Yeah, and it... Like Malaysia, when we went to the Sun Bear Conservation Place, he was like, they want to eat,

like people want to eat their whatever because it... Yeah, they take their bile. They take their bile and... Yeah, it's... it's been a huge detriment to conservation. It is completely decimated a lot of different populations of a lot of different animals, and it needs to stop.

And I do think it will as newer generations age. I think some of those practices are going to age out. It makes me really think highly of India that they're doing so much for tigers. That's cool to hear. Yeah. That's great. As far as lions are considered.

Especially for having the world's biggest population. Seriously. Like setting aside that much land is really noble. That's great. lions, there's somewhere, there's as few as 20,000, but probably more around 30,000 lions in the wild today in Africa. There's a few hundred wild Asiatic lions in India. So they're doing better, but populations have decreased as much as 43% since the 1990s. So there have been a lot of lions that have been killed.

Those killings are due to direct conflict with humans often. So either like competition for prey, livestock, depredations, just people that are afraid of lions. There are still lion hunting in a number of different African countries. Dentists. Yeah, dentists. And habitat loss, too. Climate change.

There's a lot of things that are affecting both of these species. So I think they're lucky in that they're both iconic, king-like animals that we love and that people care to protect. But we definitely could do a lot more. more for both of these species. For sure. I'd like to, we had an idea that we didn't do where I thought we should each have to say something nice about the other person's animal.

I forgot about that part. Because like we do, I slightly prefer lions to tigers. Like, I slightly prefer tigers to lions. Right. But we both love each other's, like we both love, I shouldn't say each other's, like we own it, but like, we both love both animals a lot. So, like, I just want to say for tigers, I mean, they do for sure, like, have complete control over their environment.

It was like, the only animal, I've really been wanting to see a hunt. And what, we saw a cheetah chase a man. What were they called again? Topi. Topi. But then this lion, like, chased a bunch of deer out of the jungle. Tiger. or sorry, this tiger in India and like leapt at them.

And I watched that and it was just so impressive. And like they're just so huge and so powerful. And like their coloration is amazing. So yeah, I just want to say that I really love tigers. I think it's cool. I kind of forgot that they had mains. So I think it's cool that they have mains. I would like to just say that I think it's amazing that lions have.

a social structure that they're really the only big cat that does that there's some puma's in patagonia that sometimes hunt is a group cheetahs a little bit too yeah but it'll be like coalitions of males not it's not like part of their strategy necessarily and there exists like their overall evolution and i think that's an amazing thing i do think it makes them when they're in a pride the most dominant probably predator on the land and i think they have two babies. I will concede that. I think lion babies, they're big heads with their like spotted bodies. Tigers have too many stripes. There's like too much going on to make them look as cute as a baby lion. I was looking at your Instagram pictures the other day of and that one of like the mom

licking the baby lion. Yeah. It's just so freaking they are very cute. All right. I have a question about India. Yeah. In Indiana. I know sometimes we get those too confused. I do. I But do you think Indiana was named that because someone was like India and another guy was like, nah, because it wasn't India. It's India. I don't think so. Could have been new India. I definitely don't know. I have a question about Detroit.

Yeah. Do you think it's fair for their professional sports that they have the lions in football and the tigers in baseball? Don't you think that's kind of unfair? I think they, I think Detroit has had enough bad things. happen to it that they deserve to have those big cats for their mascots. I don't think they should be able to have both. Like Chicago, it's like, they have the bears and the cups. Yeah.

Like, you think it should be like the lions and the cubs. I think they should have chose one. Yeah. Or tigers and lions and lionesses. Jackals. Yeah. Seberian tigers. Sure.

Yeah. All right. Well, thanks. The tigers and the stripes. I'm glad we did this because I will admit that before, before we went into this and I did the research, I thought it was more clear that tigers were like more dominant. I still give them my edge,

but I'm glad we did this because I learned a lot about both species. I think they're both amazing animals. And I hope no one ever makes some fight in captivity ever. You're always edging. You're edging towards tigers. I do reach a lot. Me too. Do they're the throat going.

All right. We'll see you guys later. Love you.