Top Story with Tom Llamas - Thursday, May 30, 2024

Episode Date: May 31, 2024

Tonight's Top Story has the latest breaking news, political headlines, news from overseas and the best NBC News reporting from across the country and around the world.

And welcome to the special edition of Top Story. I'm Tom Yamis, a monumental day in U.S. history. For the first time, a former president of the United States convicted on felony crimes. Donald Trump found guilty on all counts of falsifying business records. In his hush money trial, one by one, the guilty verdicts came in. A Manhattan jury convicting him on 34 counts of business document fraud in connection with payment to adult film star Stormy Daniels at the end of his first campaign. The motive, the jury siding with prosecutors to corrupt the 2016 presidential election. A mix of cheers

and booze erupting outside the courthouse as his fate was handed down by a 12-person jury made up of seven men and five women, all of whom lived in Manhattan. The jury deliberating for two days and a total of nine and a half hours, that's all it took for them to come to this decision. Just moments ago, here he is. Trump, with his fist held high, arriving at Trump Tower and met with a cheering crowd of supporters. But right after the verdict was read, Trump addressed reporters outside the courtroom. This was a rigged, disgraceful trial, that the real verdict is going to be November 5th by the people. And moments ago, New York City's top prosecutor, top district attorney, Alvin Bragg, who brought this case against him speaking out.

Their deliberations led them to a unanimous conclusion beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant, Donald J. Trump, is guilty of 34 counts of falsifying business records in the first degree to conceal a scheme to corrupt the 2016 election. And this is still far from over. The judge announcing a July 11th sentencing date that's just four days before the Republican National Convention, where the GOP is set to select him as their nominee for president, and former President Trump is going to announce his running mate. His opponent in the November election, the Biden campaign,

releasing this statement shortly after the verdict. Here it is. In New York today, we saw that no one is above the law. Today's verdict does not change the fact that the American people face a simple reality. There is still only one way to keep Donald Trump out of the Oval Office at the ballot box. Convicted felon or not, Trump will be the Republican nominee for president. The jury making their decision listening to 80 hours' worth of testimony from 22 witnesses, most notably from Trump's former fixer, Michael Cohen, and adult film star Stormy Daniels.

Daniels spending hours on that stand detailing her sexual encounter with Trump, and when she received hush money payments. And Cohen, the prosecution's key witness, the man at the center of the payback scheme, the defense working tirelessly to convince the jury he was not a credible witness. And after his former boss was found guilty, Cohen just releasing this. statement. Today is an important day for accountability and the rule of law. While it has been a difficult journey for me and my family, the truth always matters. The big question tonight, how will this verdict play out with voters? A mayor's poll taken before the decision

showing 15% of independent voters said a conviction would actually make them more likely to vote for Trump. Why is that? We're going to try to figure out that tonight. We've just learned that Trump will have a press conference tomorrow. We have a packed show tonight, but we start with NBC's senior legal correspondent, Laura Jared, who has been covering it all. Tonight, former President Donald Trump found guilty, convicted by a Manhattan jury of all charges, now the first American president ever convicted of a crime. Jurors finding Mr. Trump guilty on all 34 counts of falsifying his business records to cover up a conspiracy to influence the 2016 election by hiding how he reimbursed his former

fixer per paying off a porn star before the election. The Manhattan jury of seven men and five women included two lawyers, two in finance, and the foreman in sales, and reached their decision after two days of deliberations, after hearing for more than 20 witnesses over six weeks. The prosecution's case largely came down to whether jurors would believe the word of Michael Cohen, Mr. Trump's former attorney and self-described fixer. Cohen was the only witness who directly tied Mr. Trump to the alleged crime of falsifying business records. He testified Mr. Trump directed him to pay off Stormy Daniels so she couldn't derail his

campaign. She'd alleged a sexual counter years before, but Mr. Trump vehemently denied it. Prosecutors argued at trial the former president was desperate to keep her silent, panicked after the release of the Access Hollywood tape, and then covered it all up, approving a scheme to disguise the $130,000 payoff with a phony paper trail through invoices, vouchers, and checks. Cohen's credibility in this case was key. The defense team branding the now-disparred lawyer who'd been convicted of lying under oath as the MVP of liars with an axe to grind against Mr. Trump. While prosecutors argued Mr. Trump chose Mr. Cohen for the same qualities that his attorneys

now urge you to reject his testimony. Mr. Trump, who did not testify reacting to the verdict tonight, attacking the case as politically motivated by a Democratic DA in deep blue blue Manhattan. It's a rigged trial, a disgrace. They wouldn't give us a venue change. We were at 5% or 6% in this district in this area. This was a rigged disgraceful trial. The real verdict is going to be November 5th by the people.

Outside of court, booze and shears. All right, Laura Jarrett joins us now live. Laura, first terrific reporting all day and all throughout this trial. I'm going to hit you with a lot of questions, and I know this is still very fresh, so you may not have the answers to all of them. First up, what is the next step, right? We know sentencing is in July. Can that date slip? Okay, so Tom, now this case, after we have the verdict, this is going to proceed to sentencing. And it's not going to move necessarily as fast as people might expect, but it is going to move faster than I expected. We are going to see sentencing in this case on July 11th at the same courthouse in front of the same judge.

Before that happens, both sides are going to be able to make presentations about what they think is an appropriate sentence. In this case, given the charges, the falsification of business records, that are felonies, low-level felonies, probation is one possibility all the way up to four years max in prison. That's the range. And within that range, the judge has a lot of discretion, Tom. This is an individual, a defendant who's now been convicted that doesn't have any criminal history. And what I mean by that is that he hasn't been convicted before. set aside the fact that he's facing multiple other indictments for a minute, but he hasn't been convicted before.

And so the judge can do anywhere in between probation and four years, Tom. And there have been a lot of questions I know today about whether he's going to be put in handcuffs, whether he's going to go to Rikers, whether he's going to have to be in jail while he tries to appeal. All of that are excellent questions. None of this has happened before. All of this is unprecedented. We are talking about somebody who has not only had secret service protection now, but also the presumptive GOP nominee.

By the time we get to July, we're going to be just days away from the RNC. So I think we all have to sort of take a beat and recognize that the normal process that would play out for every other criminal defendant has a reality of the backdrop of the political here. But for right now, sentencing we know going to happen on July 11th, Tom. So you open the door to my next question, which is July 11th. It's days before the RNC. Can the Trump team appeal that sentencing date? Can they push it down the road or is that set in stone?

They can try. And we heard Todd Blanche, the lead defense attorney for the former president today in court, talking about the dates in relation to his other criminal cases. Remember, he faces a federal case in Washington. That one's still in flux. He faces one in Georgia. That one still in flux. And he faces one in Florida. That one indefinitely on hold. And so the judge, I don't know whether he's going to sort of work around their schedule in the way that Blanche might want him to. But for Right now, I think we should proceed under the assumption that this is going to be sentenced on July 11th, regardless of the political consequences and the reality of it being so close to when he is going to be officially nominated as the nominee for the party. And Laura, this is so important. You know, we've covered here on Top Story, so many crimes that happen in New York City, in Manhattan, violent crimes. We covered the undocumented migrants that attacked a police officer and were released. So people at home may be a little confused. Could the former president really be sentenced to prison? I know you sort of set the parameters there, but is that possibly likely?

I just think we have to recognize that we're in uncharted waters, and I don't mean that as a Dodge, Tom. I genuinely mean that we haven't seen this before. And I don't know whether the judge is going to want to put him behind bars, given the security risk, as you just laid out, Given the fact that he is currently running for office and likely to be the party's nominee, all of those factors, I think, are the reality of the circumstances that we're facing right now. I think it would be obviously a stunning moment to have that happen. But I also don't want to suggest that it's completely off the table because for all we know, this judge may think that that is the most fair thing to do. Time and again, we heard Juan Rashan say in court, for the purposes of this trial, you are just like any other defendant. And yet we also heard from Juan Mershan, I don't want to have to put you behind bards many times when he could have, when he violated the gag order again and again and again, 10 times. Anyone else would have been in jail for that. But we heard the judge say, please don't make me do this. I recognize the unusual circumstances we find himself in. And so I bring that up just to say the judge clearly has the reality of what we're facing on his mind as well, as much as he wants to treat him like everybody else.

July 11th is going to be another monumental historic day for this country. Laura Jarrett, leading our team there down at the courthouse. Now, if you've been following this trial at all, you've realized that cameras have not been allowed in court. This historic verdict happened, and the court, it happened outside the view of our cameras. But inside that courtroom in a nearby overflow rooms, members of the media were there to witness and document the proceedings. Some of our guests were inside the courtroom. Among them, NBC's own Tom Winter, who joins us now live from outside that courthouse in Lower Manhattan. Tom, first, just take us inside the courtroom for that moment.

What will always stick with you as you remember this day? Well, a pretty incredible moment because we were all fairly relaxed as reporters because at 4.15, all of a sudden, the prosecution shows up. Then all of a sudden, Trump, and his attorneys come into the courtroom flanked by his son, Eric Trump. And the judge came up to the bench and just said, hey, I called you in to let you know. I'm going to let the jury go at 430. They'll continue their deliberations.

in essence, is what he was trying to tell us. And I talked to members of law enforcement who did not believe that there was anything afoot. The judge stepped away. He said he was going to be back around 4.30. A couple minutes went by. A couple of minutes more went by. And he came back in and he said,

in a very stern tone, he said, we received another note from the jury at 420, and they say they have a verdict. From there, the jury wanted an additional 30 minutes, Tom, to basically go through the verdict form to make sure that they were checking off and doing all the necessary paperwork that they need to do as a jury.

jury. The entire tenor of the courtroom change. From the moment the judge said that, there was really a stiffening up, obviously, an increase in security. The security incredibly tight for this trial, as you can only imagine. And then from there, the entire kind of emotion and complexion of Trump and his team changed. They had been joking around his attorney, Todd Blanch and him, covering their mouths so they wouldn't be seen on the overflow cameras to the other courtrooms, you know, appearing to joke back and forth the entire time. But once they heard that, the real tenor of the entire defense table changed. They knew that the verdict was coming, whatever it might be.

The prosecution also very quiet and sullen. It's a big moment in the courtroom. The jury filing in. I did not see any of the jurors, not saying it never happened, but I did not see any of the jurors make any eye contact with Trump coming in or leaving the courtroom. Nor with the prosecution, by the way. At that point, the foreperson, who's the first juror picked, he picks up a microphone. And he's asked by the judge if they, in fact, have the verdict, and then they went count by count. It all goes very quickly, and it ends up with that straight, guilty verdict, as you know.

Tom, with that incredibly tense moment there in the courtroom, Tom went to us tonight. Tom, we appreciate that. For more on this verdict, I want to bring in our expert legal team tonight, and we have an all-star cast. First up, Bernardo Villalona, a criminal defense attorney and former prosecutor who was inside that courtroom today. Adam Kaufman, a former assistant district attorney with the Manhattan District Attorney's office, and Misty Maris, a New York trial attorney. Guys, thank you so much for being here. Adam, I'm going to start with you.

We had spoken earlier last week, and you weren't too sure about the prosecution's case, right? You felt that they hadn't made their case just yet. What turned? You know, I think, well, clearly the jury was not so troubled by Cohen, and they felt that he, there was enough corroboration to go with what he was saying, to believe in him. I think that was crucial.

I think the prosecution in summation did a fantastic job. Josh Steinglass did a great job of pointing out the many ways that Cohen was corroborated. And you saw him during the summation saying things like, you don't even have to look to Cohen for this. This has nothing to do with him. And I think that pointing out those corroborating elements of the prosecution's case was crucial to securing the verdict. Bernarda, explain something to me and to our viewers here, right? The FEC looked at this. back in 2016, they didn't want to touch this. The former Manhattan DA looked at this. He didn't want to touch this. The Department of Justice looked at this case. They didn't want to touch this. And then here comes Alvin Bragg years later.

He puts together this legal theory, and it works. What happened? What did they do right? What did he see? He had the courage. He had the courage. You have to think as prosecutors, you need to have the courage to be able to do the right thing.

If you see that a crime has been committed and you believe that you can prove that beyond a reason doubt, then you do have a duty to bring forth a case. And Alvin Bragg was not scared. He was not scared. He wasn't scared by the tactics of Donald Trump of his people or being bought down by Donald Trump or his people. And he had the courage to move forward on this case. But this was untested legal theory. And he was almost going out of bounds into federal election law. And yet he still, look, he won. I'm not taking anything away from him. I'm just trying to understand what you think he saw and what he did right. But not really, not really. So in the sense of,

So I wasn't in the courtroom today. I was outside the courtroom today, but I was there doing the entire testimony of Michael Cohen. I was there for jury deliberations yesterday, as well as when they were instructed by the judge, as well as the jury knows, and all of closing arguments. And I saw what Alvin Bragg saw, and that's in the terms of Michael Cohen. So Michael Cohen was credible. He was believable. Is he a person that is troubled?

Absolutely. But what I say from day one and after having watched Michael Cohen, if you had a prosecutor that listened to you and got the corroborating evidence and didn't vouch for you, but instead accepted you for who you are, you can be able to sell this case to a jury, because in the end, it's not just falsifying business records. We know that this crime, which would be the aggravating factor, it affected the campaign, and it showed that no one is above the law. And today, a jury of 12, a jury of his peers called Donald Trump what he is, and that is guilty of 34 counsel falsifying business records for his actions of trying to interfere with the 2016 campaign. So thank

Alvin Bragg for having the balls to be able to move forward with this case. And I'm glad we're on streaming. Misty, so listen, as a journalist, right, the storyteller in me loves that argument. He had the courage. Alvin Bragg had the courage. But the skeptical cynic in me says he also tried this case in Manhattan. Do you think former President Trump got a fair trial? I mean, he had 12 people that were from Manhattan. We know this is a very blue area of the country. Do you think he a fair trial. So Trump's team asked for a venue change. Of course, from a defense perspective, you're going to ask for it. But the political persuasion of a certain county is not going to be enough to get a venue change. And I would say that, especially in a high-profile case where you're

talking about the president of the United States, it's a challenge in any high-profile case to find a jurisdiction where there isn't some kind of bias, knowledge, information about the case before going into the courtroom. So I think it was fair for the judge. to say, this case is going to take place in the jurisdiction where the crime was allegedly committed because the argument that simply because this is a largely Democratic county would not hold water with any other defendant. Adam, you believe that those jurors hadn't followed the case. They didn't know what this was about. They were completely oblivious as far as when they were selected for the jury.

I mean, do you think they went in there with sort of a tabla rasa, clean slate, and it was, okay, let's hear this case and let's figure it out? I think, look, I think that they went through a pretty thorough voir dire jury selection process, and I think a lot of people were weeded out. I wasn't in the courtroom to see what they had to say, but I do think that the jurors likely came into court without preconceptions. I mean, everyone knew who the primary players were. You know, to be honest, my thought was that there would be someone who would be a pro-Trump sort of holdout. There was a juror who looks at truth social, yeah. Right. So, you know, to me, that was the biggest risk for the prosecution for a hung jury.

But, you know, jurors come in, and I think by and large, jurors try to do the right thing. They try to follow the law. They try to be honest and forthright. And it's, you know, it's the system we have. Bernarda, so, you know, usually when juries come back quickly with a verdict, I mean, if you watch the movies and if you read about legal cases, sometimes it's not guilty. And I know when everyone said, there's a verdict, there's a verdict. People started chattering around the newsroom. It's got to be not guilty. Everyone had an opinion, right? You were dead set that they were going to find him guilty from the get-go. And I will give that to you because you were dead set on that. When they came back, and I think it's early, because the jury instructions were so complicated

and there were so many charges, did you know it was going to be guilty? Yes, yes. When they said that they had a verdict and literally in front of the courthouse and I'm thinking, oh, they're talking about another case, I already reported on that. No, they was like, no, this case that you're in front of the courthouse. So it did surprise you. What I thought was going to happen is that they will return a verdict tomorrow morning. They'll sleep on it and return a verdict tomorrow morning

being that they just got the read back this morning and they got the jury instructions again and they hadn't given us a peep of anything the whole afternoon. So I thought they will come back tomorrow. But when they said there was a verdict, I said it has to be guilty because of what I saw in the courtroom and doing the trial itself and the actions by prosecutor and defense. And let's be honest, had the defense not called Robert Costello,

I am sure that the jury probably would have been out a little longer because the thing is, Robert Costello was the biggest blunder by the defense. He was a complete disaster on the stand, and it just looked how desperate and manipulating Donald Trump was. Missy, I do want to ask you about that. Did Donald Trump lose this case for his team? And I asked that because there were times when we were looking at this case, and Todd Blanche would go into a tangent with a witness in his closing arguments, trying to relitigate whether

something happened between Stormy Daniels and Donald Trump at that golf trip. But did he lose the case because he was not only playing to the jury, but he was playing to Donald Trump, and then the Bob Costello thing, which came out of nowhere, and most people said it wasn't a good idea. Yeah, Tom, I really, from the beginning, said, why on earth are they coming out the gate from the defense perspective and saying, Stormy Daniels is a liar? It does not matter. From a legal perspective, any lawyer would tell you whether or not they had some sort of trist or affair was not relevant to the case. The only thing the jury needed to know is that she was going to sell a story and that they entered into this agreement and so on and so forth. So you could have left out all that salacious detail, the magazine, all of the stuff that the judge called maybe a little much. None of that would have ever had a door to come into the courtroom. So yes, that was a huge distraction.

I completely agree with you about Costello. I think that the jury is going to look at that and say, this is the guy you put on. You only are putting on two witnesses, one of which is essentially just talking about a records keeper and the other, this is your witness. I would have stopped when Michael Cohen said the words, I stole $60,000 from the Trump organization. I would have said, okay, I rest because it's not only central to him being a liar and a cheat and a thief. It's also how much attention is Donald Trump paying to this transaction if he's able to do that right under his note? Adam, let me ask you a non-legal question because you worked in that office. Is this a good thing for the Manhattan prosecutor's office?

And I ask that because so many people are going to look at this and say this was purely political. Does this help New York City in any way? Is this justice? What do you think? You know, I think that the answer to that question, if you're a Trump supporter, I have a number of friends I was texting with who are solidly of the belief that this was a political prosecution that was brought by a Democratic prosecutor because it was Donald Trump. And if you believe that, then you believe that.

I'm not, no one's going to shake you from that. I try to stay away from the political side and focus on the trial and the technical aspects and the lawyering aspects of it and agreeing with that point about Costello and whether you should have been called. Is it good for the office? I think that the answer to that question is for half of the country, it makes the Manhattan DA's office a brave hero, a bastion of justice. for half of the country, it makes them a pariah that brought a politically motivated prosecution.

Okay, now let me put you on the spot here, Bernardo. If the former president's watching Top Story tonight, and he's loving the show, and he's loving you, and he's like, I want to hire you, put together my appeal. What would you appeal? How would you put together that appeal? So in terms of that appeal, I think one of the grounds, and probably people are not going to like this, but ineffective assistance of counsel having it to deal with Todd Blanche. You blamed the lawyer. No, no. Well, you're dealing with an appeal.

So we're putting whatever grounds that we think may be able. to be heard. So ineffective but census counsel, that would be one of the grounds in terms of a few of the blunders having to deal with Stormy Daniels that even, remember Judge Mershan doing the testimony of Stormy Daniels was talking about the objections. I was

expecting you to object and you didn't. Not to say that it's a strong ground, but that's what. Second, having to deal with the testimony, of course, of Stormy Daniels, maybe it was a bit too much, but then again, he opened up the door doing opening statements if he kept his mouth shut about Stormy Daniels, not saying

just never happened, then it would have changed a complete trajectory of the trial in the sense of how much Stormy Daniels would have been able to testify. But also, Tom, just remember, every time that the defense objected and their objection was overruled, that is one of the grounds that they are going to seek to appeal. Will they be successful? We don't know, but an appeal can't be filed until after he sentenced. All right, guys, we thank you so much. I know we're going to talk to some of you later in our special at 9 o'clock. We thank you, again, some of the best legal minds we have here on television. President Biden's reelection campaign swiftly responding, as you can imagine, to the guilty verdict today, saying, quote, no one is above the law. For more on Biden's

response, I'm joined tonight by Peter Alexander, who's live for us tonight. So Peter, talk to me about how they're sort of balancing this, right? Because this is a little complicated, because the president has made it clear they had nothing to do with this case, but the campaign wants to remind voters, this just happened, and this was huge. Yeah, so Tom, let's walk you through this, right? We're not expecting to hear from President Biden about Mr. Trump's conviction tonight. told he's in Delaware right now with his family. This is the anniversary of his son Bo's death. The campaign, though, did put out that statement. They say the conviction shows no one is above the law. They add that there is still only one way to keep Donald Trump out of the Oval Office. They say

at the ballot box, they add convicted felon or not, Trump is going to be the Republican nominee for president. The White House putting out a very short statement, they say, we respect the rule of law. The campaign and the White House, they've largely steered clear of commenting on this trial, but amid frustrations about the sort of wall-to-wall coverage, making it harder to break through with its message this week. The Biden campaign, you know, deployed Robert De Niro, two of the police officers who were attacked at the Capitol on January 6th to speak at the courthouse. We saw De Niro trading insults with Trump supporters there. But to your question specifically, late tonight, a Democratic strategist, familiar with the campaign's thinking is telling us that in their view, a conviction is better than an acquittal, but they say it is not going to be a central message for the campaign. We should note that the campaign did immediately start fundraising off it.

Ultimately, they say that President Biden's going to need to convince Americans that Mr. Trump's chaos and lawlessness and their words is not just bad for Mr. Trump, but also bad for Americans' lives. The bottom line, though, Tom, and I think this is really the view privately, is that they acknowledge they don't think that either way this is dramatically going to change this race. They think this isn't resolved until November, in effect. All right, Peter Alexander. Peter, I have one more question before you go. You know the president so well. You know the former president so well. We have this debate coming up at the end of June or July.

I'm losing the calendar now. But we have this debate coming up. Do you think this becomes a large part of President Biden's strategy? Does he remind voters that we're talking to a convicted felon here? You're going to elect the convicted felon? Do you think that becomes part of sort of the language we hear in this campaign? I think, I mean, the White House privately, excuse me, campaign officials privately. say they don't think it'll be a big part of the campaign. They'll raise money off of it.

They'll try to motivate their base off of it. But they recognize this thing's going to be decided at the margins, Tom. And to do that, according to a senior campaign that I spoke to just within the last couple of hours, they think this still comes down to the key issues that they have to sort of zero in on with voters, issues that we have discussed that they have said multiple times before. The topic of democracy, the topic of abortion rights. And really what they view is, not just the economy, but in their language, trying to demonstrate to Americans which one of these candidates cares most about the middle class. At the end of the day, that's what's going to motivate voters in their eyes. There could have an impact on the margin. Some independents have

said this could sway the way that they vote, but really they need to get Americans to care about what's in it for me, not just how it affects Donald Trump. Peter, Alexander, with new reporting tonight first, Peter, we always appreciate that. For more on the political fallout from this historic verdict, let's get to our political pros tonight. First, my colleague and friend, NBC News senior Washington correspondent, Hallie Jackson. Hogan Gidley, former White House, principal deputy press secretary during the Trump administration, and Maria Theresa Kumar, President and CEO of Voto Latino. We thank you all for being here. Hogan, I'm going to start with you.

We know the president now is going to have a news conference tomorrow. I think it's going to be at 11 a.m. Eastern. You told me last night on this broadcast that the best-case scenario would be acquittal. Guilty on all counts. How do you bounce back from this? Oh, I don't think it matters all that much, to be quite honest. I think this is not a surprise for the Trump campaign. I think it's not a surprise for most Americans. We talked about also last night, a majority.

last night, a majority of whom believe these attacks are politically motivated. 59% believe Biden is part of the attack. So I think as we take a look at this right now, people are taken aback by it. Now the left is going to get exactly what they want out of this, which is to bleed them dry financially, to keep them off the campaign trail. And the conviction was just a cherry on top. We all know it's going to be overturned, not a big deal. The fact is, as Peter Alexander was just reporting, this will come down to the issues that affect the American people. There's a reason Joe Biden doesn't want to talk about inflation or crime or wars breaking out all over the world or the southern border because he's failed on all of those

things. And the American people trust Donald Trump to fix those, not Joe Biden. Halley, when we covered the 2016 campaign together, there were flashpoints. There were these moments where you would say there's no way, all reporters would say there's no way the campaign can bounce back from this and he bounced back. Starting with his attacks on John McCain, ending with the Access Hollywood. Starting with his opening statement when he announced and he attacked Mexican Americans. So he's always been able to bounce back. And then there was this mentality at started, this phrase I would hear from political strategists and from reporters, nothing matters, right? Nothing matters anymore. Nobody cares. You've got to think at some point things start to

matter. Does this shake up the race at all? I don't know, right? And nobody knows. And anybody that tells you that they know is wrong. And I believe that because I think this is, as we've been talking about, a moment for some humility here on the part of respectfully pundits and reporters and everybody. Because here's what we do know, right? There have been signals in the hypothetical instance, if Donald Trump were to be convicted, that at least some independence, anywhere from 10 to 20 percent, would be less likely to vote for him. That matters. That's not a big number, Tom. You know that. But in this race where the margins are so close, that could make a difference. But here's the thing. The hypothetical is not the reality now that Donald Trump has, in fact,

been convicted on all count. Will more people say, now that they've seen this verdict come in, from a jury of 12 of their peers, 12 everyday New Yorkers, will more people say that they don't want to vote for somebody who has been convicted of felonies, will fewer people say that? 67%, about two-thirds to three-quarters depending on the polling, say that they don't really care either way, that it's not going to change their vote, no matter what had happened today, as we've seen the results now. There's a couple of factors here at play, though. Number one, the Republican Party has rallied around Donald Trump big time.

I mean, you've seen it from Speaker Johnson to these veepstakes potentials, possible running mates, almost instant. Everyone's out there aggressive. But right away, I mean, right away, you saw some of these statements from a lot of these folks. Second thing, Donald Trump will fundraise off of this. The third thing, it helped him in the primary. It is still an X factor if it is going to help him in a general election, because to get back to what Hogan's talking about,

what I imagine Maria might want to weigh on it near Maria Theresa Kumar, the economy and immigration, again and again, huge issues for voters. So Maria Theresa, I'm going to go over to you now because I think there could possibly be a political trap for the Biden campaign, right? From the get-go, the president, the campaign says, we had nothing to do with this case. Obviously, Republicans see it differently. They said this was a complete political trial,

But the Biden team has said, we had nothing to do with this. The DA in Manhattan went out on this on his own. But at the same time, they can't not talk about this. They can't skip over this moment because there could be some momentum here. How do they balance that and how do they use this to their advantage, do you think? First of all, I think we have to remember that this is first a grand jury found that he was guilty. And that's why it went to a jury of his peers. So it wasn't once but a twice a double whammy.

I think that's very important. Second of all, it demonstrated to the American people that democracy does work. We also know that the kind of vision that Trump has for America is more akin to a Putin kind of Russia, a Chinese kind of Russia, China, and so it does allow for the American people say, look, the system is working. In a time when people are afraid and concerned that their institutions don't work, a jury of their peers said that even a president that was twice impeached can't actually be prosecuted on felony charges.

And I think that right now the GOP has a real struggle, because now they have someone that has 34 felony counts who cannot carry a gun and who can technically not vote either in this coming election. And so I think the American people are going to be watching very closely of what happens on July 11th when we're going to get a better idea of what the actual verdict is going to be on what kind of sentences he may have. And that's important because it's right before the RNC convention where they have to finally nominate him. And let's not forget, it was the summer of the January 6th committee hearings. where all Americans were tuning in that really influenced independent voters, moderate voters,

going into the midterm elections. That is when folks were tuning in. So I would actually say that this is an opportunity for the American folks to hear specifically what he was convicted for, what he's going to get, what kind of sentence he is going to receive right before the Republicans decide whether or not they keep him or ditch it. Hogan, you're the Trump whisperer here. I'm going to ask our fine director, Brett Holi, to fire up the president, right, the former president, right after the verdict was read in court.

I do want to ask you something. I've seen the former president very angry, and I didn't see him at sort of a level 10, like you've seen the former president at times. Here's what he said. Here's what he looked like after the verdict was read. This was a rigged, disgraceful trial that the real verdict is going to be November 5th by the people. And they know what happened here and everybody knows what happened here. Todd Blanche has kept that stare for weeks. I don't know what his motivation. He has kept that stare. He has kept that stare. What do you think about the president's headspace right now? Listen, I think what we saw there is exactly what he is thinking. It is rare, if ever, that what Donald Trump says publicly is not what he'll tell you privately.

He also said this is far from over. I think that's important, too. You talked about donations being a big deal. His website's already crashed tonight. People are, you know, trying to flood there and give money. I've received text from people dropping million-dollar donations tonight because they were so fired up and angry. texts from people who hate Donald Trump or say now they're for him. They don't like him. Why, they think you got a bum rap? They're absolutely. When you take a look, and this is the thing.

But it was unanimous, and it was 34 counts. It was all of them. But it was though, right? I mean, I mean, it did happen. It was 12 jurors. I mean. It was 12 jurors. And I would argue they're not necessarily his peers so much as they were as political opponents. But nonetheless. Yeah, we don't know that. But I hear you. I hear you. You're Manhattan. I'll give you that. Nonetheless, it's Manhattan. Let's be honest. Also, what we know about the judge here, what we know about his family, the donations, et cetera to Biden. to anti-Trump causes. This is the type of information that right now hasn't really permeated out to people. So they may have a snap poll and they'll say, I feel X about a particular issue, but as they learn more information, that's how they begin to formulate their opinion. We've got a long time until November. And Donald Trump is not going to take this lying down. This is going to be

a big, bare-knuckle brawl. And by the way, real quickly, before that convention, you thought that nominating process was going to be hot. It's going to be on fire now. To nominate the president or finding the running mate? I cannot wait to see that convention. Hallie, you were talking about this earlier, but I want to put it up for our viewers, because I want to dig into the numbers. I want you to walk our viewers through this. This is a new poll I thought was so telling, right?

This is the new poll from Maris, NPR, and PBS News Hour. The survey asked voters how a guilty verdict would affect their vote. Massive majorities in both parties and independents saying it will have no impact. You said that. But look at the independents, though. 15% saying they're more likely to vote for Trump if he is convicted. That's right. Halley, we've never been in this position before.

Obviously, you made this point earlier. It was a great point that, you know, there's always hypotheticals. You can say something in a hypothetical when it's in front of you. It's different. Do you think that's real? 15% of independents saying, if he's convicted, we're actually going to vote for him. It's a good poll. I mean, that poll meets our standard, so I wouldn't cast out on that.

I would say that you want to look at it in context. We don't tend to treat polls as breaking news here at NBC News. And when you look at other polls that are similar, asking similar questions, the numbers that you typically see are more in line. with that less likely to vote for Trump, you know, like I said, 11 to 23% depending on what you're looking at. Obviously, there are some people, and this breaks along party lines who say they would be more likely to vote for him if you were convicted, depending on how this shakes out. But the bottom line is that I think there's a beat, right? Taking a beat. It's a historical. It is historic. It is unprecedented. Hogan, it's a big deal, and it matters. And I know that you know that, right? I would say the same thing to anybody. Because this is, I think, a moment that we just haven't faced before.

So there are some question marks. Now, on the political framing of it, to get to the point that you were talking about with Hogan and Maria Theresa there, you know, there is this question. I spoke with the senior Biden campaign official just before, not long before the verdict drop a couple days ago. And they were talking about how once this trial ends, they would like to make this pivot here to the idea of a clear contrast between these two people, not by focusing on the legal issues here, but by reminding people that there is, in their view, a lot of drama that comes with Donald Trump. And interestingly, somebody who I know you know, Tom, David Axelrod, right? dominant Democratic strategist is suggesting that perhaps the clearest way to draw that contrast

is not to focus on the convictions, is not to focus on the guilty verdict, but to focus on those everyday kitchen table issues. Because in the words of this other campaign official told me, listen, they believe that this trial, there are those on the campaign that believe this trial shows in many ways the thesis that they have been trying to paint about Donald Trump, which is that he is out for himself and not out for voters. And the president has an opportunity to draw contrast on that. Maria Treas, I want to give you the last word here. And it's something learned in 2016, and the Hillary Clinton campaign learned, and I know you learned this as well, which is even though Trump is getting negative attention, he's getting attention, right?

Every cable news network, every news network was carrying that verdict live, we're carrying his comments, carrying Alvin Bragg's comments, it's the cover of every newspaper. Is there the danger that the Democrats just get drowned out, and it's all about Trump until November? I think it's, again, it's a reminder not of what happened 2016, but all the news that he received in the summer right before the 2022 midterm election. And that is what people are going to want to be talking about. They want to know the facts. They want transparency in their government.

And the more that the media is able to cover the transparency, again, the facts, to recognize that this is unprecedented, that he did try to influence the 2016 election where he ended up winning despite losing the popular vote. That is what the American people appreciate. That's why they tune into you, Tom. It's because they want to know the facts so that they can make their decisions for themselves. And it's going to be imperative that just like the summer of 2022, the summer of 24 is going to help determine where people move when it comes to November. Maria Teresa, Hogan Gidley, Halle Jackson.

I'll see a lot of you later on at 9 o'clock, but we thank you for joining Top Story tonight. And our coverage right here on this broadcast of this historic verdict continues throughout our show. When we come back, a live report from outside the courthouse, we're going to go back down to Lower Manhattan. Dasha Burns, she's live for us. She was there as the verdict was read. What she saw, what she heard outside. She's standing by for us. You're watching a special edition of Top Story.

Okay, we are back now with our special edition of Top Story. Former President Trump found guilty on all 34 counts in his New York hush money trial. Today's landmark conviction making him the first former U.S. president found guilty of felony crimes. And it comes just six months before this year's presidential election. For more, Dasha Burns joins us now live outside the courthouse there in Lower Manhattan. We can see the signs behind you. Dasha, you were there as the verdict was being read. Talk to us about what you heard, what you saw when this happened.

Yeah, Tom, well, now this park is a little bit emptier than it was in those moments, those historic moments when that verdict was made public. And it was a mix of people of all stripes here. I mean, you see here someone with a lock him up sign, clearly not a fan of the former president, but there were a lot of MAGA hats here earlier as well. been told by some of those pro-Trump protesters that they have made, they're making their way to Trump Tower right now. But the moment that verdict was made public, Tom, this entire area erupted in a mix of booze and cheers, a cross-section of New Yorkers, folks from New Jersey,

all around the tri-state area who came here to experience what is a very historic time here. Look, it was fascinating to walk around and listen to the conversation. that were being had here. There was a lot of passion, but for the most part, very peaceful. But people were debating this. People were engaging with people who had a different opinion from them. We witnessed some clashes, but we also witnessed just some average citizens talking about what they believe. And this is the area this entire time that has really been dedicated to those coming here to exercise their First Amendment rights. I'll show you there is a group of police officers here. There's been a heavy, heavy, heavy police presence here all throughout the day

that, of course, ramped up very quickly as soon as that verdict was read. All right, Dasha Burns for us live on the scene there in Lower Manhattan, Dasha, we appreciate you and all your reporting. And as we have been reporting here in Top Story, 12 ordinary New Yorkers became jurors in the criminal trial of a former American president and convicted him on all counts. But none of those jurors are speaking just yet for insight into what it's like to serve as a juror on a high-profile trial that involves a high-profile politician. We're joined tonight by a juror from the Rod Blagojevich criminal trial. Just to remind you, back in 2008, Illinois Governor Blagojevich was charged with corruption

related to an attempt to sell the U.S. Senate seat held by President Obama. You may remember this. The biggest piece of evidence being FBI surveillance recordings where Blagojevich could be heard discussing the amount a bribe would be. The governor sat on trial twice, the first one ending in a hung jury, and then a retrial he was convicted on. Seventeen counts, including fraud, attempted extortion to conspiracy, solicit bribes. They were all there. The verdict came after 10 days. Jessica Huberich, who was a juror in that trial, joins Top Story now. Jessica, the jury here came back much faster. Talk to me about the moment

you go into that room, and you have sort of the weight, I don't want to save the world in your case, but the weight of Chicago and Illinois on your shoulders, and you start deliberating. Yeah, so after two months of going to the trial every single day and just listening to all the evidence, listening to, as you mentioned, the audio, eight hours of phone calls. We went into the room to deliberate, and we spent 10 days in there, and I really think we combed over everything just very meticulously and really thought out each and every count as we decided it. But there was a lot of weight on our shoulders as far as, you know, deciding on the fate of the governor. So that was definitely a lot of sleepless nights.

Yeah, how hard was it not to discuss the case? How hard was it not to read online articles? How hard was it to shut everything out? Because in this case, right, the entire country was watching this case, reporting on this case. So I just wonder how hard it was to ignore all that. It was a little difficult, but in my case, I shut down all of my social media. I tried not to read any articles or read anything online. Didn't really discuss a whole lot with my daughter or husband when I came home.

So I did my best to not read about it and not come across some of the information, but occasionally you would see something, see a headline. So sometimes it was difficult to remove yourself back completely. Democratic governor in a very blue state. Did politics ever weigh into your mind? I mean, did it ever creep in there? A little bit, I would say. But in my case, I feel that I came in there very, very unbiased.

I hadn't really followed the first trial very closely at all. So my opinion of Blagojevich was somewhat neutral at the time. And ultimately, I just used logic and evidence to decide my vote. Were you surprised this jury came back so quick because the jury instructions were pretty complicated. They had to have them read back, but then they came to a verdict pretty fast after that. Were you surprised about that? I was actually really surprised about that. We had 20 counts.

We had to look over, and we spent 10 days over each and every single count, making sure every single juror was comfortable with the verdict and that we came to consensus. There was about three counts, I think two not guilty and one hung, that we spent a couple of. days on, just making sure that everybody was really comfortable with their decision. And so I was really surprised this one came back so quickly. I know you've met none of the jurors that just convicted our former president, but do you think he got a fair trial, even though he is the face of the Republican Party? He is unapologetically Republican, conservative, and he is being held in trial here in Manhattan. The trial was held in Manhattan?

Yeah, I mean, that's really hard for me to determine. who was serving on the jury, but I do think they are very meticulous as far as the selection process, at least they were with us. I believe we started the Buligoriovich trial with hundreds of different jurors that they selected from. I filled out a 30-page questionnaire, so it's hard to say, you know, what their thoughts are or how they went into the jury room, but I do have to think that he did get a fair trial. Okay, Jessica, we thank you so much for your time and for your insight. This special edition of Top Story continues right after this short break, former President Trump, again, found guilty of 34 criminal counts of former

U.S. District Judge joins us up next. Does she think the former president will actually be sentenced, and does he have a chance for an appeal? Stay with us. All right, welcome back to a special edition of Top Story, a jury of 12 New Yorkers delivering that historic verdict to former President Donald Trump, convicting him on 34 counts of falsifying business records, that jury deliberating for nine and a half hours. Here to break, break all of this down in this really this unchartered legal territory is retired U.S. district judge, Shira Shyneland, one of my favorite guests throughout this time covering this trial, because you've had great insight. So, Judge, my first question to you, do you think

he's going to get prison time? That wasn't the easiest question. I don't think I would give him prison time. Why? I don't think it's particularly good for the country. And I'm not finished. I'm not finished. And he's a 77-year-old male who's never been convicted before has no criminal record, and he should be treated as any other defendant, not worse and not better. So I wonder how many other defendants who are 77 and never had a criminal record would actually go to jail on a Class E felony, the lowest felony. Is it prudent? Is it protocol to consider the country in this case? Is that something that Judge Mershant can do? He can do exactly what he wants. He can consider any anything and everything he decides to.

But do I think so? Well, he has to take into account what you call the seriousness of the offense. That counts. And if he in his mind says he defrauded the American people and he was elected because he covered this up, that's pretty serious. There might be some issues with the gag order that may come up again. Do you think the judge addresses those or does he forget that and say, we need to move on as a country? as you're saying, he may consider other things, or will Donald Trump have to answer for that?

I think so. I think one of the reasons he may go to prison for what we call a split sentence, a few months in prison, a few months in home or house arrest, something like that, may be because of the contempt findings. That has to be punished now. So I think that could be one reason to give him a short period of time in jail. I mean, you're talking about a date, a week, something like that? No, a few months. But remember, he's going to get bail pending appeal. So this is a long way off. He'll get six. sentenced and then the lawyer will ask for bail pending appeal and there are a lot of appellate

issues here I believe and that could take two years so you're saying we will likely not see President Trump behind bars before the election that's what I'm saying before the election I doubt it you doubt it so you think he'll be able to campaign he'll be able to run as a candidate for office and this will not impede him in any way that's what I think but yeah you know everybody's going to have their own view on that now when you say impede him in any way a lot of voters aren't going to vote for a convicted felon. So that impedes him. Well, you never know. So you mentioned about the appeal. You think he has good chances for an appeal? You saw a couple things in the case? I think there are issues that are issues of first impression that an appellate court would be it. Well, how do you

charge that third crime, the one that by unlawful means? You know, the underlying crime to the falsification of business records is a state election law crime. But this was a federal election. Is it a appropriate to have the state election law be the crime in a federal election. That would be quite the appeal. That's a big problem. That would be quite the appeal. You're essentially saying, if I can break it down for you, like I'm a five-year-old because I am, you're essentially saying that they should have never brought this case. I'm not exactly saying that yet. I'm saying that's an appellate issue. But if you were on the defense team, you would go that way. Oh, sure. Oh, I would absolutely say

it's a federal election. You can't charge a violation of state law. Obviously, you're a brilliant legal mind, you're a judge. You were, you're obviously, you're much more versed than the jurors did. Why do you think the jurors didn't see that? Oh, they wouldn't know anything about that. It's too complex. No, I think nobody charged it, nobody argued it. Nobody could. It would be a legal issue, not an issue of fact. So we say facts are for the fact finder, the law is for the court. That's how you divide it up. They don't decide legal issues. Judge, it has been a pleasure talking to you. I'm sure we're going to stay talking in the months to come, and we're going to be right back. With former President Trump guilty in all charges in this hush money trial, he still

faces criminal charges in three other cases. And there's still so much to talk about with what happens with this case. NBC News legal analyst Danny Savalos joins us now, along with our friend Sarah Azaria, criminal defense attorney in Los Angeles. Danny C, I'm going to start with you. We know that Trump's other cases are probably going to take place after the election. Is that fair to say? How much longer will we be dealing with this case?

He's going to be sentenced on July 11th. Will there be more? July 11th, after he sentenced, he has 30 days in which to appeal, and then the appellate process starts. As her honor just explained much better than I could, there are a number of different appellate issues in this case, but the appeals process takes a long time. You mentioned the other cases. If any of those, the federal cases, are still pending when Donald Trump is inaugurated, they

will go away. He will appoint an attorney general who will make them go by bylaw. How long does the appeal process take? I mean, would that start right away, or could it happen before November or not really? It moves glacially. Your direct appeal takes a while. They have set a briefing schedule. Each sign has to brief the issues.

You have to assemble the record. That's a whole process. The appellate process is not a quick one. It moves very slowly. Obviously, depending on congestion in the relative courts, you could maybe say federal courts move a little quicker. But on the whole, this is not a speedy resolution by any stretch, the appellate process. Sarah, you've been on top story over the past few weeks. talking about this case. You were actually in support of what you were seeing from the prosecution.

You thought they had a case. You were right. What did the defense do wrong here? Yes, Sarah A. Sarah A, remember? You know, it's hard for me to critique a defense, the defense, because we don't know what went on behind those closed doors unless and until the jurors speak. And that's certainly they can decline to speak. But I think that, you know, putting on Mr. Costello as your the last witness out of the two witnesses you put on, and then not putting on an election law expert, those are obviously, to me, two blunders that the defense made, but did it impact the jury and sway the jury towards guilt? I can't say for sure, because again, I feel like the prosecution did an amazing job, put on a very compelling case, a stellar closing argument that

really tied all the loose ends and connected the dots. And I think, you know, at the end of the day, a jury has spoken. And, you know, it's justice. And by the way, I disagree that this is not a jury of his peers. My black clients don't get 12 black jurors. You know, this is Manhattan. The crime occurred in Manhattan. This is the jury of his peers, whether or not, you know, it doesn't mean that he gets 12 MAGA people with red hats sitting on that jury. So we got to respect the verdict. The jury has spoken. And to me, this was on a personal level so heartwarming that, you know, our system works. You know, I wrote a book on this because I was dumbfounded in 2016 when all this went down. How is one man above the law? And so I am very specially joyful in this

verdict. Danny, you're one of our great legal eagles here at NBC. I asked this question at the top of the broadcast. I want to ask you this too. The FEC looked at this. They didn't want to go after it. The former district attorney here Manhattan looked at this. Sy Vance didn't want to go after it. The Department of Justice looked at it. They didn't want to go after it. Alvin Bragg did and he was successful. What did he see that no one else saw? He didn't just see this in an ad hoc fashion. They took a long time investigating this

with a number of very talented lawyers, and they even hired out an outside law firm to tell them whether or not this was a crime. I think even Alvin Bragg, if he was being candid, would admit that this was not a long shot, but a challenge. It was based on a novel legal theory, and there was a lot of risk, a lot of political risk in bringing this prosecution.

So I imagine he has to feel pretty vindicated tonight. All right, Danny Savalo, Sarah Zara, we always love hearing from you guys. I know we're going to hear from you guys later as well. All right, when we come back, we go back down to Lower Manhattan, a check of what's happening down there, an update from our reporter, Von Hilliard. Stay with us. All right, welcome back to our breaking news coverage tonight of the first ever criminal conviction of a former president.

Donald Trump found guilty in all 34 counts in his hush money case here in New York. I'm joined now live by NBC News correspondent Vaughn Hilliard, who's been covering this trial and also the campaign for us. Von, you've been out on the campaign trail through several election cycles now. Talk to me about some of the narratives and some of the storylines you're going to be tracking out of this conviction. Right, for Donald Trump here, you know, these are 34 felony counts that he was just convicted on. And this was the decision of 12 jurors, New Yorkers, who were brought in through this process. But for Donald Trump, we have seen this before, right? To a certain extent, he tries to win over the public court of opinion out on the campaign trail, right?

We saw this in his civil fraud trial. We saw this in the E. Jean Carroll defamation suit. And so this time, we've already seen it over the course of this afternoon, this evening here, his sons, as well as his own campaign, putting on statements that November 5th, Election Day is the real verdict day. And so for him, he is going to go out and continue to plead his innocence and go and not only try to fundraise off of this, but make the case that this was political unfair persecution. He couldn't get a fair trial in New York.

And so for him, we know that there's already going to be a press conference tomorrow morning at Trump Tower. And so for Donald Trump, it is now about taking this to the campaign trail for the final five months before the November general election. You know, Vaughn, I know it's easy to say that this is not going to affect the campaign. This is not going to affect the election. People are going to forget about this next week. I know some are already saying that. But if nothing matters, then the campaign doesn't matter either, right? Then they can both just stay home and then we'll see who wins on election day.

What do you think happens? How does this impact the election? Right. Let's just, if we could go to 2020 election, Tom. It was just 42,000 votes that separated Donald Trump and Joe Biden across the three battleground states that would have changed the outcome of. the election, 42,000 votes. And so, while polling may show that an overwhelming number of people say the verdict today

was not going to change their opinion one way or the other, there is the potential that there are a few thousand voters, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of voters that will question whether they want somebody who's going to eventually be a convicted felon, he's going to go through the appeals process, but whether they want him to be a return to the White House. That's going to be a serious question. You know, the day of the sentencing back here in Lower Manhattan is going to be on July 11th this summer. That is just four days before the Republican National Convention when he is formally named the nominee of the Republican Party. Von Hilliard on the campaign trail, which had a very strange stop in a Manhattan courtroom that we will all never forget.

Vaughn, thank you. We thank you for watching Top Story. Please join us at 9 p.m. Eastern for a special NBC News Now report. I'm Tom Yamis. Stay right there. More news on the way.