Top Story with Tom Llamas - Thursday, September 10, 2026

Episode Date: September 11, 2026

Tonight's Top Story has the latest breaking news, political headlines, news from overseas and the best NBC News reporting from across the country and around the world Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Tonight, the presidential payout promise can President Trump give a $5,000 check to every American adult? The president's pitch offering to pay $5,000 if Republicans win the House and Senate. Democrats calling it an electioneer stunt. We press Republicans on if it could really become a reality and where the money would come from. Deadly oil barge explosion off New York City. One worker killed? What set off this blast? Mid-air emergency passengers strapping on oxygen.

masks as a Delta plane suddenly plunges tens of thousands of feet. Why did the plane suddenly lose cabin pressure? Our series, the cost of denial. We're with the firefighter on his first trip back to the World Trade Center since 2001. Why he tells me his time there has caused dementia, the coverage he's fighting for. Police cruiser pursued a stolen cop car crashing into a home how the chaotic scene came to an end. A teen clinging to his capsized brinked. pulled from the frigid waters off the coast of Alaska. What he told rescuers the moment they reached him. A growing number of tech insiders going public with concerns AI could wipe out humanity.

We speak with two former employees at top AI companies and one expert pushing back on the doomsday outlook. Plus, new trouble for homebuyers' mortgage rates hitting the highest rate in over a year. Top story. Starts right now. And good evening. We begin tonight with growing questions about President Trump's massive midterm promise. $5,000 for every American adult, but there's a catch.

Republicans have to take control of Congress come November. The president announcing the plan during his lengthy speech at the GOP midterm convention in Dallas last night, kicking off the two-day Trumpa-palooza event with this lofty promise. But because of our tremendous strength and success economically, I will issue a dividend to every adult citizen in the United States of America for $5,000. All right, so the big question, could these payments really happen?

Lawmakers on both sides of the aisle raising legal, political, and even financial questions, with many pointing to the national debt. Remember that? Already passing $40 trillion. And there was another surprising moment last night in a video message, Democratic Senator John Federman

praising his fellow Pennsylvania Senator Republican, Dave McCormick. So what's in store for tonight? any surprises? Here's a live look at the convention center right now. The president is expected to return to this stage tonight after speaking for more than an hour and a half yesterday, as well as Vice President J.D. Vance, who, of course, is weighing his own run for office in 28. Our Ryan Nobles is live inside the convention center again for us tonight. And Ryan, you've been speaking with lawmakers all day about the president's promise.

Yeah, that's right, Tom. And I think it's safe to say there's skepticism from both Republicans and Democrats about the reality of this $5,000 check to every single American. And President Trump suggesting today that he somehow would be able to go around Congress to make it a reality. But Maine Republican Susan Collins, who's locked in a very tight reelection bid, said today that she's concerned about who actually would be eligible for this payment and how much it would cost. Many of those questions swirling around this convention happening here in Texas,

where again we expect to hear from President Trump. Tonight, President Trump defending his provocative new plan, with Republicans facing headwinds going into the midterms. He's pledging to give every American adult a $5,000 check if Republicans keep control of the House and Senate. If the Republicans win, you win with us and you get $5,000. It will be called the Trump dividend. The plan would cost over $1 trillion. The president suggesting it would come from. from tariff revenue. But that still would not be enough.

We have the money, why don't give it out. Because they can't, I'll tell you what, because the Democrats can't do it. Because with them it's negative growth. With us, it's so positive. Democrats already hammering the proposal, calling it an unrealistic election year stunt. This is the biggest liar to ever serve in government period. And look, the dividend is not happening. President Trump earlier gave $1776 to members of the military.

but other promised rebates never materialized. Congress would have to pass the new plan. We pressed a top House Republican. Is that realistic? I will have to wait and see you. He wants the American public to share in the great success that this country's having. All of this as the president rallied Republicans

at their midterm convention. So I'm asking you to pretend that I'm on the ballot because if we lose, you're going to lose your border. you're going to lose your tax cuts, you're going to lose your safety and security. And in a surprise, Democratic Senator John Federman appearing on video, blasting his own party. I'm always going to stand with America. I'm always going to reject the extremes in socialism. Ryan joins us once again, and Ryan, J.D. Vance getting his big moment tonight, the vice president, of course. What can we expect to hear from his speech?

Well, Tom, there's widespread speculation that J.D. Vance is considering. a bid for the White House in 2028. And tonight, we expect him to lean on his new fatherhood. He recently became a father for the third time. And he'll talk about what that fatherhood means in terms of his overall vision for the country. He's also going to reference his relationship with the late Charlie Kirk, who's, of course, assassinated one year ago. And he'll also talk about his hard scrabble upbringing as he grew up in poverty and then rose to one of the highest levels in government. All of that packaged in a way to describe. his populist vision for the future, perhaps, in many ways, Tom, laying the groundwork for

an eventual announcement that he plans to run for president in 28. We're going to have to wait and see. All right, Ryan, we thank you for that. We want to turn now to a developing headline out of New York City, a barge exploding off Staten Island, killing at least one person and sparking a massive fire. NBC, New York's Ida Siegel is on the scene with the latest. A baby. Tonight, explosions.

Rocking a ball. barge on New York's Staten Island. Dark smoke billowing from the shipping container, triggering a massive emergency response, fire trucks arriving to the scene. Firefighters responding to reports of a large blaze racing to contain the flames. There were three explosions, but the first one was the biggest, and then I was praying that nobody got hurt. And when the ambulance came, I said, oh God, don't tell me, you know, because that was the last thing I wanted to see was them. Initial reports, one man was killed. No identification has been released, crews on scene securing remaining petroleum from the container.

Authorities have not determined the cause of the fire as the investigation is underway. Ida Segal joins us now live from Staten Island. Ida is good to see you. We're learning more about the people injured in this explosion? A little bit more, Tom. We know that one man was killed, as we reported. We don't know who he is just yet. The authorities have not released his identity. We also know that two FDNY firefighters sustained minor injuries responding to that explosion. Details about that are still not quite clear at the moment. We're also learning that the company that owns the shipping container is called Clean Water of New York. They do oil recycling, and we're told that a large amount of petroleum had to be cleaned up after the explosion and eventual fire.

We're not getting a lot of details about exactly what was. in that shipping container, but knowing what this company does and the fact that the petroleum had to be cleared afterward is an indication that there was something potentially toxic inside that container, Tom. All right, Ida Segal on the scene for us. Ida, we thank you for your report. Now of the evacuations in Malibu after a massive sinkhole opened up at Nicholas Cage's home. Dozens of homeowners were forced out, and tonight crews say the ground remains unstable. There's evacuations. Dana Griffin joins us now from the scene in Malibu. So Dana, What are you hearing from officials?

Well, Tom, the sign here says it all. Area closed due to hazardous conditions. When that roadway gave way on Tuesday, it opened up that massive sinkhole now expected or estimated at 50 feet wide. Five homes are damaged. More than 30 have been red tagged, meaning that families cannot return until it is safe. And that is because it prevents first responders,

emergency crews from going into this neighborhood and trying to get people out in the event of an emergency. I spoke with one Malibu City official who told me about his greatest fear. Listen. It's a dangerous situation. Cars could fall in, people could fall in, and there could be further collapse of the sinkhole, damage to structures, you know, parts of buildings falling. And forecasters are also warning of a severe El Nino coming up this winter. So officials here say the coastal erosion that we have seen up and down the California coast could get worse. officials say they have no timeline for when homeowners will be allowed back into their homes. They say it could take up to five weeks to make those repairs right now.

It's just it's really tough for the families who have not been able to return here and the uncertainty of what could happen next. There could be more damage. They are watching that hole very carefully to see if it continues to open up, which again is also part of the hazard here. Tom? Yeah, those sinkles are scary. Okay.

Dana, we thank you. Also tonight, NBC News is learning several U.S. military aircraft were damaged during an Iranian missile attack. A U.S. official says it happened on an airbase in Jordan earlier this week and that the aircraft were not damaged directly by the missiles, but by falling debris after the missiles were successfully intercepted. All but one of the jets are now back in service. Back here at home to two separate mid-air emergencies, both of them involving Delta flights, that suddenly lost cabin pressure. In one case, oxygen masks dropped from the ceiling. Here's Tom Costello. It happened at 36,000 feet. Oxygen masks suddenly dropped. Passengers panicked as Delta Flight 2311 L-AX to Salt Lake reported losing cabin pressure.

Gun at Delta 2311. Currently rapid descent. We'd like to get down to 9,000 and we'll direct Las Vegas. The pilots quickly put on their own masks. The auction deployed. That's affirmative. Then descended 27,000. feet in just 10 minutes diverting to Las Vegas.

I mean, you could definitely feel that we were going down. Passenger Jordan Maynard grabbed his phone. There was a couple minutes there where you didn't know if you needed to text my wife, tell her that I love her and the kids. Thankfully, the plane landed safely in Vegas. Then today, another emergency, a different Delta plane leaving JFK for Phoenix also lost pressure. We had a pressurization issue. That flight returned safely to JFK.

These are rare occurrences, but pilots are trained. to get on oxygen and descend the airplane. And that's exactly what happened here. A loss of pressurization can cause crew and passengers to lose consciousness. In 1999, a Learjet carrying golfer, Payne Stewart, and five others, lost pressure, then flew for four hours before crashing. And Utah, Jordan Maynard, just thankful to be home. I gave the kids a kiss while they were asleep, laid down, just laid next to my wife,

and just relax, kind of try to catch my breath. Delta says both crews followed policies and procedures to land safely. The FAA is now investigating. Tom. All right, Tom, we thank you. Now to an NBC News exclusive. New reporting about the CIA officer arrested with $40 million worth of gold bars in his home. As part of that probe, the FBI interviewing the second in command at the Pentagon, prompting lawmakers to raise the question, were government officials dup by this alleged scammer?

Here's Courtney Cuby. Tonight, new details in that bombshell case involving a CIA officer now under arrest and a secret stash of millions of dollars in gold bars. A case that now has investigators interviewing the second most powerful official at the Pentagon. The case against CIA officer David Rush began after he convinced the world's leading spy agency he was a top gun fighter pilot and a graduate of prestigious schools. Claims prosecutors say were lies, calling him a master manipulator. Rush was arrested and when federal agents raided his Northern Virginia House, they say they made a stunning discovery.

Over 300 gold bars worth $40 million and 35 Rolex watches paid for by U.S. taxpayers. And two sources now tell NBC News as part of the probe into Rush, the FBI has interviewed a top Pentagon official and billionaire former private equity titan, Steve Feinberg. Feinberg has not been accused of any wrongdoing. The FBI says he's not underinvest. and there's no indication Feinberg knew about Rush's alleged criminal activity. But Feinberg has recommended Rush for sensitive jobs and praised his performance to CIA officials. Lawmakers have said the case raises troubling questions. Were Feinberg and other officials duped by a con man and given access to secret information? The Pentagon telling us Feinberg never supported Mr. Rush's career and that there was no close

professional relationship of any kind. Agents here at the FBI reviewed video as part of the investigation into Rush that showed Feinberg and Rush at a residence affiliated with the U.S. government and used by Rush, according to four people familiar with the video. U.S. officials provided details of the footage to members of Congress, and President Trump was briefed on Feinberg's work with Rush, according to two sources. In a statement, the FBI says it did not review any surveillance footage capturing Feinberg related to the investigation of Rush.

When asked whether it knew of any video capturing the two, the FBI stood by its prior statement. More funds would help us in a very difficult period. Rush was charged with stealing money from the government by giving false information on his timesheet and has not yet entered a plea. It's outrageous. A former CIA official tells us the allegations against Rush stunned him. If I was the director of CIA, I would be ringing that place dry to find out where things went wrong to make sure that they didn't happen again.

Courtney Cubey, NBC News, Washington. Still ahead tonight, our series, the cost of denial. We speak with a 9-11 volunteer, now dealing with a dementia linked to ground zero while he's fighting for coverage. Plus, one teen's incredible survival somehow staying alive for days in the Bering Sea off of Alaska, how a nearby boat rescued him.

And the bizarre revelation from singer Rick Springfield that he killed a man while performing for troops during the Vietnam War. Stay with us. back now with an extraordinary story of survival in the frigid waters off Alaska. A 15-year-old boy found alive clinging to an overturned boat for days after a fishing trip took a deadly turn. Stephen Romo has more. Tonight, new video showing the moment rescuers reached a 15-year-old boy stranded for days in the Bering Sea off the coast of Alaska.

We'll swing around and grab you. Stay on the bus. You can see the boy identified by family as Parker, kneeling on the overturned boat. A good Samaritan crew, captain by Adam White, helping find him. We started blasting our horn just to give him some hope. And then through the binoculars, we could see him waving. They used a line to pull Parker closer before lifting him to safety.

The Coast Guard says the 18-foot boat left Alaska's remote St. Lawrence Island Friday on a fishing trip with the teen, his older brother and their cousin on board. The boat was supposed to return home early Sunday, but never made it. By Monday, a Coast Guard plane finally spotted Parker about four miles offshore, asking the nearby vessel to help. Parker telling the crew he was the only survivor. And was he able to speak? He didn't really divulge a whole lot of details except where he thought his cousin went, you know, when he knew his cousin went over and where he thought his brother was. Both bodies were recovered from the water, and Parker was taken to get medical treatment, including for symptoms of hypothermia.

He was alone, and that was when he started just giving all his attention to God. He was sitting on his knees, just praying the whole time. He said he believed he was going to make it. And he's now back home with his family, including his brother, Darren, as they mourn the two lives lost. We're all not okay, but we're all together, and we're all grieving and everything together. It's incredible. He was on that boat for three days and two nights. You can't imagine. And it's so sad he lost his family members. Did the family tell you what happened on the boat? Yeah, it's really interesting that he's telling them every detail that went on for those three days and two nights saying the weather got rough and one of their lines got wrapped in the motor and they capsized. And then when that happened, that's how he lost his brother and eventually his cousin who tried to make a swim for it. And this is not just a hobby. This is their livelihood that they go out there. and have to make money for the rest of the year.

So they're going to eventually have to get back out on the water, just unimaginable. It's a rough sea and that looked like a bit of a small boat. But like you said, they were experienced. OK, we'll have to wait and see. Stephen, we thank you for that. Now to a stunning admission from singer Rick Springfield, the Grammy winner, best known for the song, Jesse's Girl, going on Joe Rogan's podcast saying,

get this, he killed someone in Vietnam while performing for the troops after their Navy encampment came under attack. Take a listen. As a young kid, I didn't really understand what I was doing. I said, oh, yeah, let's fire a gun, you know. So I threw the mortars down about five or six mortars, which I could have easily lost a hand, you know. I mean, that kind of thing. They came in the next day and said, hey, you got one, you got one.

And that still has a hard place to land in me. Hmm. Okay, we've reached out to Springfield's team for comments. and have not yet her back. With that, Maggie Vespa joins us now for more. Maggie Springfield is now 77. He says this happened when he was 17. What more did he say?

And do we know why he's sharing this now? Well, Tommy, he was really talking in this interview about, you know, looking back over his life. Again, he's in his 70s now, moments in his life beyond its career that have really impacted him. Obviously, this was a huge one. He was basically a high schooler at the time. And we'll note, by the way, Springfield himself was Australian,

but he was staying at this American Navy camp. And you heard him say, just the soldiers told him, basically, the enemy is on the outskirts. We have to start firing. They just start handing him mortars to put into what he said was a shoot. And it seemed like he's talking about he didn't really understand the gravity of what was happening until really days later. And you heard him say that soldier just told him, hey, you got one. He said, it really took a while for it to sink in what he had actually done, that he'd actually killed someone. Here's some more sound about the impact this had on him. How long did that sit with you for? Like, how long?

I think it's still there. You know, I mean, it doesn't, I, it's, it's hard for me to, you know, kind of face that I was responsible for the end of a, you know, a life, even though it's distant and it's war and I didn't really have anything to do with it and didn't really know what I was doing. But, you know, as a kid and playing, like I said, John Wayne, but it was, it's pretty, it's pretty, it's, it's pretty, heavy when I, you know, when I think about the reality of it. And Tom will note he did talk about, he told the story in his 2010 memoir, but this is really the first time that he got so emotional about it and talking about the impact it's still having on him. Again, thinking about the fact that he was a kid at the time. He talks about feeling like John Wayne in the moment, only to realize later the gravity of what had just happened,

Tom. Yeah, you didn't expect that from Rick Springfield. All right. Maggie, thank you. Coming up, new video of a murder suspect stealing a police cruiser, then crashing into a home. We'll show you that while Chase. Plus, a major update tonight on mortgage rates. What you need to know if you're in the market for a new home. It's not good news, FYI. But first, top story's top moment and the unbreakable bond between mother and daughter. Mom Susan had been battling stage for colorectal cancer that had spread to her liver.

After multiple rounds of chemotherapy, she still needed a liver transplant. That's when her 27-year-old daughter, Maddie, stepped in and saved her. her life. And finally, the news they had badly, so badly hoped for it. You're cut. What? I'm in remission. You heard that right. Susan is in remission. We are overjoyed for Susan and her family. Such an inspiring story. All right, stay with us more Top Story after the break. Back now with Top Stories news feed starting with new trouble for potential home buyers.

U.S. mortgage rate soaring. The average 30-year fixed. Now topping, get this. That's the highest rate since May of last year, according to new data from Mortgage News Daily. And NFL star Josh Jacobs pleading no contest to misdemeanor charges, including battery. His girlfriend accused him of throwing her to the ground during an altercation this summer. The Green Bay Packers running back up appearing in court today saying he takes full responsibility. The NFL says it's reviewing the case. Jacobs could still face a leak suspension. And wild video of a police pursuit in Ohio, you can see the officer. officers chasing the suspect in the SUV.

Eventually, the man jumps out and takes off on foot before running back and stealing a police cruiser. He speeds away, then moments later crashes into a home. Authorities say two people inside were hurt and that seven officers were injured, taking the suspect into custody. He was wanted for multiple crimes, including homicide. Also tonight, an unusual drug bus near the southern border in Texas. Look at this. The DEA seizing more than 2,000 pounds of meth. hidden inside a shipment of cabbages.

The agents peeling back the leaves and revealing the stash. They say the bus was part of a Homeland Security investigation carried out with the FBI and Border Patrol. Okay, now to our series of The Cost of Denial, and tonight we return to the World Trade Center with a first responder, a volunteer who rushed to ground zero after the September 11th attacks. He's now suffering from dementia, a condition doctors say was likely caused by his exposure to that toxic air. Tonight, why he and many others are still fighting to have the cost of their care covered. For the first time in 25 years, Stephen Stollerich is stepping foot at the site of the World Trade Center, where he worked as a volunteer firefighter in the days after 9-11. His memories from that time remained vivid, even though this 61-year-old has been diagnosed with dementia.

Do you remember 9-11? I mean, can you remember it? It's like yesterday. I saw one time I'm on fire. And then boom, there goes the other one. And then a couple of days later, the fire department is for volunteers to go in and I'm going. And he was there when President Bush first visited Ground Zero. As soon. You were in this crowd when George Bush gives that famous speech?

For two days, he was working by the pile, helping in the cleanup. As soon as you walked past the checkpoint, even before you got to the checkpoint, no matter which way the wind shifted, you could smell it. What was it like? Death? Smell death, fear. And now fear is what Stephen and his wife, Teresa, are grappling with. They think his work on the 9-11 site led to his early onset dementia. The one thing he did ask me, and I promised him, he said, don't put me away.

And I said, I would do whatever it takes to keep you home. I'm never going to leave him. I will do whatever it takes. I will never put him in a facility. Tom, never. As a 9-11 volunteer, they say there should be help. Do you believe the stuff he was breathing in on that pit has stayed inside of him forever?

Yes, without a doubt, 100%. Anybody warn you? Anybody say anything, hey, guys, be careful. We don't know what this is. No, here's a mask. Yeah, that did good. Half of the time it was on, half of the time it was off. You couldn't breathe with it, so you took it off.

Stephen was one of thousands of first responders working at the site of the attack exposed to that toxic air. The World Trade Center Health Program was created to help survivors and first responders. It currently covers medical conditions like asthma, various cancers and PTSD, but not dementia. Teresa says a few years ago, Stephen began growing more agitated, confused. Why did that bother him? Why did he get so angry? Why is he yelling? Well, that was the first telltale sign. Then things start to happen where, oh, he left the oven on. Things not put in the right place?

Yes. Researchers say it's part of a new 9-11 health crisis emerging 25 years later. The toxins from that time now potentially causing dementia in many first responders in their late 50s and early 60s. An in-ordered amount of patients seem to have cognitive impairment. Dr. Benjamin Luft at Stony Brook University filed a petition for dementia in 9-11 responders under 65 to be covered by the World Trade Center Health Program. The CDC, which runs the program, says a decision on the petition has not been made, but Love sees a clear connection between the dust inhaled by first responders like Stephen

and the decline they're facing today. That dust would we believe found its way. to the brain and began this process. In a study of more than 5,000 first responders, his team found that those with the greatest exposure to toxins at the World Trade Center site are 14 times more likely to be diagnosed with dementia before age 65, compared to those exposed to the lowest levels. The cost of this is not just financial, it's the cost of the future and the life we thought we would have, right? I know his mind will be taken away a little bit of time, but his heart

is what I fell in love with. And I will always love him. I want to bring it an expert on cases like Stevens. Sean Klausen is an epidemiologist at Stony Brook University and the lead researcher on cases of dementia among 9-11 first responders. We used some of that research in our story that you just saw. us. So connect the dots, right? Everyone knows how toxic that air was, right? You look at the video and you can just see. I mean, you have these two giant towers that have fallen. Unfortunately, all the people that had died there that was so horrific, and then everything that was burning. So how does all that toxic air, it comes into your body and then what does it do? It stays there for 25 years?

I mean, in part, one of the things your body is trying to do is it's trying to get rid of it to the best of its ability, but some of it, you know, your body's not really designed to clean it out. And so sometimes it just kind of sits there. And when it sits there, it sits in wherever it happens to have arrived. You know, that might be in your lungs. It might be in your stomach. It might be in your brain. And then from there, those toxic chemicals, they're building or they're just slowly little by little sort of damaging the person from the inside? It could be both. You know, as your body breaks it apart and digest it, it could, you know, send it out further and further into your system and into different parts.

So there's some mixture that happens. And then it could also just sit there and it could slowly block up tubes or cause your body to respond and, you know, cause damage that way as well. How did you guys link this to 9-11? I mean, it is so hard, right? because dementia happens to so many Americans, right? How are you guys able to link that, wow, there's this massive cluster that happened with these 9-11 volunteers and or first responders?

Sure. The first thing to know is that whilst, you know, dementia happens to a lot of people and mostly affects people who are quite old. We, in this population, a lot of the responders, especially the most severely exposed responders, have dementia now. They're in their 50s and 60s.

It's very young to have dementia. So it's actually pretty unusual. It's not kind of your great-grandmother's dementia in that sense. And how did you guys link it back to 9-11? Was it through interviews? Did you guys realize, oh, wow, wait, this group all worked on 9-11. They were at the World Trade Center site. Yeah, we knew that they were all workers at 9-11,

that they all worked at the Trade Center site. A lot of what we did was that we looked at the types of exposures that people reported while they were working. So some of that was like, what did you? do, where were you, what did you see when you were there? And what we found was that the responders who said that they were there for a very long time, that they were working in dusty conditions, especially if they didn't wear any protective equipment like hazmat suits. You know, they seem to be at higher risk. And the people who said, well, you know, I was a responder,

but I worked, you know, in places where there wasn't any dust or where, you know, I worked in a clean room at the morgue or something like that, their risk was much lower. And so really what we found was that there was this like big dose response between whether or not you worked a long time in the dust or if you didn't. There's no doubt in your mind as a researcher that has looked into this, that these early onset dementia cases are linked to that 9-11 cleanup or participation in 9-11, as far as somebody who was down there at the site. You know, as a researcher, there's always doubt in your mind. That's what you're trained to doubt. I think the research is very strong, though,

in this particular case, they're very strong results, and it's a very unusual experience or disease. And you've also researched the link between PTSD and dementia. Can you talk about that? Sure. Well, one of the first things we started to look at was whether or not people with PTSD also were at risk of cognitive impairment and dementia. And what we found there was that they,

They have a slightly more unique experience. They experienced some cognitive impairment, but also some physical impairment. And what we also found was that they, you know, while the risk of dementia was much higher in people with PTSD, that they didn't really account for all of the cases. There were all of these people who were severely exposed but really didn't have PTSD who still had the dementia. And so we've really branched out in two different ways, trying to understand how this experience and these exposure, affected individuals. Sean Klausen, we thank you so much for coming on Top Story tonight.

Still ahead on Top Story, opening the AI safety floodgates. Researchers at top AI companies resigning over concerns that tech is a threat to humanity. We'll hear from two of them, plus one expert who says those concerns are overblown. Our conversation next. We're back now with the AI doomsday fears reaching a fever pitch. After anthropic researcher Jacob Coxon announced on XT, he was quitting out of concerns, the tech could lead to human extinction. Listen to what he told me during our interview last night.

You truly believe that AI could kill us all in less than a decade? Yes, I do. And it's not just me. Many people working in the industry, including people, executives, senior researchers, all genuinely believe that there is a substantial probability that this technology could kill everyone. Coxon's initial post now has more than 150 million views. prompting others in the industry to speak out in agreement.

You can see some of their own post here. Some of them saying they also quit jobs at leading AI companies over the same concerns about where AI is heading. I'm joined tonight by two of those AI researchers. Josh Engels and Joe Benton left Google and Anthropic, respectively, last month to join a Berkeley-based research nonprofit that evaluates AI safety. I also want to bring in Syash Kapoor, an incoming assistant professor at UC Berkeley, and co-author of AI snake oil, what artificial intelligence can do, what it can't, and how to tell the difference. Thank you all for being here. So, Joe, I'm going to start with you. You left Anthropic after nearly three years. What did you witness while working on that safety team that

made you want to leave? I think it was less what I witnessed in like a particular moment or at a particular time and more noticing that the incentives that the industry was under was making it extremely hard for even actors who cared a lot about the risk to prioritize safety. I think we've seen companies across the industry systematically fail to prioritize safety enough to get the risks to what I would consider to be an acceptable level. And I left, therefore, because I think I can have more positive influence on the development of this technology by helping to kind of foster public transparency from outside these companies and to kind of shed a light on the risks

and hopefully encourage these companies set the standards better. Josh, you spent a year working at Google AI's research lab, DeepMind. What makes you think AI could kill us all? Just the pace of progress right now. It's not so much the systems of today that I think are extremely dangerous, but more are the systems of three to five years from now. I've seen nothing at DeepMind or publicly

to say that these systems are like the progress of slowing down at all. Far from, and it seems to be even speeding up. And at the same time, I think alignment, the science of trying to make AI's act in ways that are beneficial seems to kind of be woefully behind. So I used to work on alignment, but now I think it's more impactful for me to leave and kind of try to increase the amount of public evidence.

Yeah, I want to walk through some of the scenarios where researchers say AI superintelligence could end the world, right? We've laid them out, some of them here, drone warfare, biochemical warfare, nuclear warfare, and cyber attacks on critical infrastructure. Joe, break down with these each mean and how this technology could carry these out if it happens. Yeah, so I guess, like, I probably am not the expert on, like, each of these individual pathways. I think the thing that gives me more concern rather than, like, anyone particular, like, kind of somewhat science fiction, doomsday scenario, is the worry, that the pace of progress is extremely rapid at the minute, and I think only shows signs of speeding up.

I think that it seems pretty plausible to me that in a relatively short number of years, we could be co-inhabiting the world with super-intelligent AI systems. And I think at that point, I guess you can tell lots of particular stories about how it goes badly. But for me, the intuition is this more general one

of we would be a second species in that scenario. And just like kind of us to ants, If the aliens were much more intelligent than us, there would be no guarantee that that would end up going well. Josh, which scenario are you most worried about? I think I agree with Joe here that I'm most worried about like a second species kind of argument where these systems are eventually going to be much, much smarter than us. And then it doesn't exactly, I don't exactly worry. I don't exactly know how this will play out. But it's kind of like saying, oh, well, we're ants.

let's invent humans. What will they do? Will they kick over our antill? Will they burn? It doesn't really matter. It's just they won't, we won't be in control of the future anymore. I think that's the important thing. And real quick, for people here that maybe aren't as advanced in AI,

they're not engineers like yourselves or worked at AI companies, you can't just unplug these things. You can't just unplug it? I think at some point, I think at some point we might end up being sufficiently dependent on these systems that it becomes extremely costly to unplug them. Maybe a national grid depends on them. Maybe our hospitals depend on them.

Maybe we can't even properly tell that stuff is going wrong because the pace of progress is accelerated so much because we're so dependent on these AI systems that we don't totally understand how the economy, how our society is being run because we become so deferential. It can't all be doomsday. Yeah, go ahead, go ahead. To be clear, I think it would be a great policy

to have an off switch. Right now we don't even have that. You mean an off-switch when they're designing these models? I mean, yeah, I mean, these models are just deployed very, very widely, all sorts of different GPU clusters all around the world. There's no centralized way to be like, let's turn it all off right now. That's, oh, wonderful. Nice to know. Sayash, I want to bring you in now. You co-wrote an essay titled, AI as a normal technology.

In it, you write, quote, we view AI as a tool that we can and should remain in control of. And we argue that this goal does not require drastic policy interventions or technical breakthroughs. We do not think that viewing AI as a human-like intelligence is currently accurate or useful for understanding its societal impacts, nor is it likely to be in our vision of the future. So, Seash, it sounds like you don't think the situation is quite as bad as people are making it out to be. And as I was reading this, I was thinking like if this was a movie, that's when the Terminator bot like kills you first. But in all seriousness, explain to our viewers why you're maybe not as concerned as these two other gentlemen. One reason for our predictions about the future is that there are so many different ways in which we can develop control mechanisms for AI companies. And, you know, I think I agree with the points that AI companies have been sort of reckless in the deployment of these systems.

But that is precisely why we've come up with regulations for other industries. And when we say AI is normal technology, we don't. don't mean to say there's nothing to see here, we should move on. We mean to say that we should use our entire existing policy arsenal, things like making companies responsible when the agents act in ways that cause damages, making sure that there is enough transparency from what these companies are doing for the external world, making sure that, you know, if the incident, the open AI incident that recently occurred where open AI's agents attacked a third-party website, had it occurred in other industries, at this point

of time, there would have been serious internal investigations. People would have been fired, frankly. People could go to jail. They could incur criminal liability. So we need to come up with the same kind of liability regime that we have broadly adopted for many other beneficial technologies. But once we do that, once we solve the regulatory and incentives problem, I think the incentives of tech companies, the racing, as has been described earlier,

the fast pace of progress, all of these become much more aligned with human flourishing and human well-being. As just one example, in all of the recent incidents that we've seen, we actually have in-house control techniques. Companies could have deployed techniques that, frankly, have 10-person research lab implements to make these evaluations. But, Syash, yeah, no, I hear you. And it's a great point. You're 100% right. But isn't the whole fear that it's not what's happening right now, it's what's going to happen in six months to a year, that these systems move faster than our guardrails? I mean, in some sense, I think these guardrails come about as a result of these incidents

happening in the first place. The unfortunate reality is that what is on a policymakers' agenda is fairly limited at any given point of time. And AI risks just have not made it up there for the vast majority of policymakers. But with incidents like this one, we do see an imminent response already. And in fact, there are some areas where you actually don't need to believe that AI will kill you to pursue sensible common sense policymaking on these. And that is the kind of policymaking we proposed. And that is the kind of policymaking. Some policy makers have started coming around to.

Jacob Coxon, who I spoke to yesterday, the person who stepped down from Anthropic, he mentioned a scenario to me, a possible scenario where AI creates a pathogen. It runs a lab. It releases that pathogen. It's a novel virus. Obviously, this is a horrific doomsday type of scenario. But is that something that you believe could potentially happen if AI is put in the wrong hands, or is that fantasy land? I mean, we should be concerned about the biosecurity risks of AI, but we should be more concerned about bad actors misusing these models to try to carry out this kind of attack. And, you know, for the specific kind of risk, there are, once again, a number of common sense policy proposals that we've been putting in front of policymakers for the last few years, and it is

our hope that they take them seriously. For one example, consider that today, almost anyone can manufacture most kinds of DNA synthesis strands. And this might actually allow bad actors to create new kinds of pathogens. But there's a simple solution. We should implement controls on DNA synthesis screening. We don't need to worry about AI when the actual risk is that of biosecurity. We simply keep shoring up our interventions on improving our biosacurity, regardless of whether the risk comes from AI or from a terrorist organization.

I want to pose this last question to each of you. the world has dealt with technology advancements in the past. What do you think makes this moment different? We'll start with Josh. I think the biggest thing here is that it's not really clear whether to think of this as a technology or as a second species or a new species. We're building these systems that are generally intelligent.

They can generally do what people can do. And soon you might be able to generally do what people can do, but better. And the future, with this sort of technology, is maybe better described as a more powerful alien species arriving, rather than the invention of some new gadget. Joe, how about you? I think for me, the thing that I worry about and that might make this different is the pace of the technological improvement. I think that all of these companies, and this is something I've witnessed first-handed Anthropic, are pretty directly trying to race towards automating the process of AI R&D development itself. And so I think that could speed up the pace of progress from like merely blistering at the minute to uncontroll level.

And I think that's probably where I differ from the points that were being made earlier, which is I do think that a bunch of the normal regulation should be great and it's like a thing we should engage in. I am worried that stuff might end up progressing too fast for us to get our act together in time for that, unless we worry about it now. And then, Syash? The main way in which I think AI has been different so far is just the recklessness with which we have allowed companies to operate so far. I think if we do adopt organizational maturity standards and policies to make sure that someone at the companies is held accountable for bad accidents or incidents, I think we've been a much better place.

Syash, Josh, Joe, we thank you so much. We could talk 10 hours about this. I appreciate it. I'm sure we will talk to all of you again soon in the near future if AI doesn't take over. When we come back, the showdown down under, the Rams and 49ers going head to head tonight in Australia. The team's taking two very different approaches to fighting jet lag. So which travel strategy will pay off and could it help you? Stay with us.

Finally tonight, football season is officially back. Two teams are kicking off down under. The Rams and the 49ers traveling to Australia for their season opener in a game that could be a test of who fights jet lag best. Our Janice McEugh-Frayer is there and takes a closer look. Let's go. NFL is going somewhere it's never been before. Melbourne, you're in for a train. The Los Angeles Rams and San Francisco 49ers kicking off tonight in Melbourne.

The buzz is all about the Zs. jet lag, a potentially major factor. It takes about 15 hours to travel from California to Melbourne, then add in a 17-hour time difference. I feel like I'm in the future. Never before have two NFL teams traveled so far for a regular season game. So in a lot of ways, this is also a battle of the sleep schedules. The 49ers arrived in Melbourne a week ago, giving themselves days to adjust. I try to see my family's time, but it says yesterday. I don't even get how that's possible. The Rams trying the opposite strategy, touching down roughly 24 hours before kickoff, the goal to keep their bodies and minds on U.S. time.

I think our body blocks will be right on and ready to go. Experts say it can take one day for every time zone traveled for your body to adjust. Whether that's domestically and that's three time zones or in this situation, going 16 time zones for the 49ers and Rams. two teams ready to take on jet lag and each other. Janice Fackie Freyer, NBC News, Melbourne. All right, we'll see which sleep strategy pays off tonight. Thanks so much for watching Top Story.

I'm Tom Yamis in New York. Stay right there. More news on the way.