Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - Adam Faux: Toronto Mike'd Podcast Episode 1568

Episode Date: October 21, 2024

In this 1568th episode of Toronto Mike'd, Mike chats with Adam Faux about Pigfarm, the Queen Street scene of the late-80s, and his current challenge with a Toronto university. Toronto Mike'd is proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, Palma Pasta, Ridley Funeral Home, The Advantaged Investor podcast from Raymond James Canada, The Yes We Are Open podcast from Moneris and RecycleMyElectronics.ca. If you would like to support the show, we do have partner opportunities available. Please email Toronto Mike at [e-mail]

Well, you didn't know it was summertime when you book this late October visit. Beautiful. Welcome to episode 1568 of Toronto Mic'd, proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, a fiercely independent craft brewery who believes in supporting communities, good times and brewing amazing beer. independent craft brewery who believes in supporting communities, good times and brewing amazing beer. Order online for free local home delivery in the GTA. Palma Pasta Enjoy the taste of fresh, homemade Italian pasta and entrees from Palma Pasta in Mississauga and Oakville. The Advantage to Investor podcast from Raymond James Canada.

Learn how to plan, invest and live smarter. Season 7 of Yes We Are Open, an award-winning podcast from Monaris hosted by FOTM Al Greggo. RecycleMyElectronics.ca, committing to our planet's future means properly recycling our electronics of the past. And Ridley Funeral Home, pillars of the community since 1921. Today, making his Toronto mic debut is Adam Fox. Welcome Adam. Thank you.

Thank you very much. Fox, I can't say faux that is in French. F-A-U-X. It's a, it's a, it's an English name. Oh, you should think. Guy Fox. Yes. Well, yeah, it's derivative of F-A-W-K-E-S.

Okay. It's a thousand year old English name. There's no doubt there's a Norman influence in there somewhere, but it's been in Britain for at least a thousand years. Okay. Like auxiliary audience, you know. Well, you look good for your age. Thank you.

Since 1066. Right. Yeah. Since the Norman invasion. Now tonight's the night, Adam. So I'm letting the listenership know that TMLX 16 is tonight at 6 PM. That's the 16th Toronto mic listener experience.

And for the first time ever, we've gone east of young street. Wow. Can you believe it? We're at Jarvis and Queens key. That's where GLB brew pub is. Will you be joining us? Yes. It is a block and a half from my, oh my God.

So you got to swing by and you can bring, you know what you can, absolutely. You can bring a date. Uh, we're going to have a beer and you're welcome to buy more than that, but I can, a beer on me. And then there's food, uh, delicious food from the GLB brew pub kitchen. And we're going to have a blast, uh, looking forward to it, but here's a small world story

for you. I went on a bike ride just before our recording. It's a beautiful day out there. What do you think of this? Can you get used to this climate change? What do you think? I went on a bike ride just before our recording. It's a beautiful day out there. What do you think of this? Can you get used to this climate change? What do you think? In the near? Yeah. In the immediate future it's okay. In the micro thing it's absolutely wonderful on a day-by-day basis. I'm not sure I'm happy about it for my children. I mean I'm still right. I'm still biking in shorts. It's a great feeling. But I'm

biking along. I'm on Lakeshore. This is like exactly 30 minutes ago. I mean, I'm still right. I'm still biking in shorts. It's a, it's a great feeling, but I'm biking along. I'm on Lake shore. This is like exactly 30 minutes ago. I just checked the clock 30 minutes ago. I'm on Lake shore and I can see the distinctive gate that the fellow, a fellow FOTM that means friend of Toronto, Mike James Clark, strolling along Lake shore. I pull over, I go first of all, I said, James, Cam Carpenter is gonna be at TMLX 16 tonight, because Cameron Carpenter will be there, and he works closely with James. Do you know Cam? Yes, not closely, but absolutely.

We've met many, many times over the years. And then, you know, James asks me, who's up next? He likes to know who's coming up on Toronto Mic. And I said, well, as it so happens, in 30 minutes, I'm gonna sit down and have a great chat with Adam Fox and he goes I just played I think at the horseshoe of Adam Fox correct. Yeah, we shared a bill Yeah, it was great show. It got rained out the mighty rain of the summer The show got cancelled got moved again, but it was

Good time wait, so who was on this bill? Like who was there? James Clark's band also. The Institute. The Institute, yeah. Myself, so my new band, which is a kind of an amalgamation of players, one of whom is the original drummer in Pig Farm from the 80s, Leslie Becker. So that was our first time playing together in 30 years or so. And a few other people, Brent Wellborn, Jen Benton, who's a well-known bass player in and around Canada, has toured the world.

And I'm sorry, and I'm blanking on the other band, and it's so silly that I'm not thinking correctly. Gene. Gene Champagne. Yes, and that's true. These are his drumsticks. There you go. Shout out to teenage head.

Yeah. If not, oh, sorry. Not Jean Champagne. Not Jean Champagne. Jean. Another Jean. I wish I could be, I wish I could, if James Clark was here, he would tell you. Well, it'll come to me.

Maybe he'll swing by. Mean Jean O'Courland, but we'll come back. We'll come up with that in a minute. Let's set a lot of people. I want to make sure people know who exactly are we talking about. So I'm wondering if we can go back and bring us to pig farm. Yeah.

And I was kind of digging in, uh, your, I should point out the reason we got connected. I want to give some love to a gentleman who's also going to be at the GLB brew pub tonight. I want to give some love to Blair Packham. How do you know Blair? Blair. So my first encounter with Blair was

via the television set. Uh, when I was a teen, I, um, I had seen some, some of the jitters music. It wasn't, it was before their first record. They had a video, I'm forgetting the name of that as well, but, um, when I was around 21, they re rec, released a single called, uh, last of the red hot fools.

Of course. And I was in the punk scene in Toronto and I, at the time I had to hide my affinity for pure pop music and I was certain I was a big fan of Blair. The story gets good because, uh, while we lived in different scenes and he was a bit older than me, uh, there was a moment in my career where I had part of my thumb chopped off.

No joke. This is Delivering Now magazines. We used to wear rings with big knives on them and we'd sweep down and I was working with another bass player, Brian Didgett, who's well known in Toronto. He accidentally swung and lopped off the top of my thumb from a corner to the center and I needed to hire a guitar player to replace me on a Cross Canada tour or to play along with me and I thought I'm gonna ask that guy Blair Packham because I'm a big fan and wouldn't that be crazy and he said yes so wow so that was the first time we played so Blair was in pig farm for a bit for about three weeks absolutely yeah that's a fun fact and and it was kind of interesting yeah I mean you'd have to ask him next time he visits or tonight what his experience was, but he had to take his shoes off. That was one thing I know he was surprised about. And he certainly had to turn up a bit.

a lot of gigs. He was also in a band I had called the Supers for a while with Mor LaFoy and Graham Powell later of Jan Arden and those kind of bands. Okay. A lot of ground. Yeah. So, we're going to basically, I'm very interested. I pulled some music. We're going to talk Pig Farm. We're going to find out what you've been up to since Pig Farm. There's a lot of interesting connects with other people. And I also a couple of other notes before we get really rocking here, I am very interested as a young man at the number of times you moved. Yeah. Like, because it's, you know, I, you know, a lot of people are going to move three, four, five times, but you, you, you've got a, I don't know, at least more than like a, I would say about a baker's

dozen or so. Yeah, more. Can I dig into that for a second? Yeah, dig into that. Because it's a big part of who I am. Dig into that. So initially I was born in downtown Toronto, Wellesley Hospital, which is now gone. And one side of my family are all Torontonians,

back to 1860, Irish, that whole thing. My parents split when I was very young, two and a half, and I lived in downtown Toronto, uh, first at Flemington, I guess, as a zygote and then in the beaches in the 60s. When parents split up, my dad got custody. This is a rarity at the time. And I could go, that's a, another story that,

uh, but we moved, uh moved to a farm that was a campus for OCA at the time, now called OCAD, where my dad taught kind of design, design aspects that were, that he believed in a great life for everyone, I guess. So the students would live in teepees and domes, as did we, ice houses, 28 sided houses, everything on this place called Maggie's farm. So even then, uh, while we moved to a farmhouse,

we rarely lived in the farmhouse. We lived in shelters in the, I lived in a yurt briefly. I've lived in it. And as I said, a teepee, I lived. The big one is, was the 28 sided house. Um, you know, so as a kid coming home from, you know, I'd grab the bus, go to school, but coming home, it was walking across a field, starting the fire. And, you know, so as a kid coming home from, you know, I'd grab the bus, go to school, but coming home, it was walking across the field, starting the fire and, you know, that sort of thing. Well, I'm trying to visualize a 28 sided house. Like I could send you a picture. Okay.

I could send you a picture. It had a clear plastic roof, you know, and my father was also big into geodesic domes and, uh, that sort of thing. Um, but that's just the beginning. So, uh, we moved a few times too, from there to Shelburne. big endodendroidesic domes and that sort of thing. But that's just the beginning. So we moved a few times too, from there to Shelburne, then from there to Toronto and he

passed away when I was about 12. And then I. I'm sorry. That's okay. It's. I mean, you know, that's a tough age to lose your dad. It's a brutal age and, but it has so much to do,

I think with my character now, because my, uh, I didn't know my mother very well, but I was sent to live with her in North Toronto and, you know, young in Eglinton area. Um, I lived there for, uh, a few years and then I left home. She was insistent that I not study music and that if I was to study music, I was out.

So I was out, I left. And I was playing the oboe, I did the best I could to impress her with my musicality, but you know, it wasn't good enough. And then after that- What was this hate for music coming from your mom? Ooh, I think it's much deeper than that. I think it was a hate for the culture.

And I think it was, I mean, much later, my mom claimed to be a visual artist. I think there was some competition there. I think there was a reaction to my father who was a, you know, basically an artist, a very alternative living kind of guy. And I think her intention was to straighten me out. I mean, for many years after she, she wouldn't

even introduce me as a musician. Even when I had hits, she would just say, this is my son, he's a carpenter. She would not acknowledge that aspect. Interesting. Yeah. And then after that, I think the homes just accelerate monthly and a lot of it had to do

with touring and traveling and, uh, you know, not being able to afford to have an apartment while on the road. So. So how many different dwellings? I think I think 34, 34 different dwellings. And then are you like, are you stabilized now? I am. In fact, the house I live in right now, which is a cooperative in downtown Toronto and old Toronto is we've been there now for 13 years.

That's, that's by far the record. The last record was I think five years and that was in Parkdale. Okay. Fascinating. So, okay. So you're comfortable moving around? Well, yes and no. I mean, it's, but maybe it's partly being a father and having a daughter who's now 15 and, and seeing and feeling the necessity to create an environment that was less transient than my own.

But at the same time, I think the environment we're in right now is actually quite good for being a musician and quite stable and easy to maintain and quite inexpensive actually, by standards, Toronto standards at any rate. Well, it's good to hear. Now, if you were, Blair Richard Martin was on the show recently and he was telling me about an artist co-op near here on Birmingham and he's trying to get into that and it's like for us knowing artists, I think this is

interesting to note that there are these artists co-ops in the city. I think, I mean, I really kicked myself. I had the opportunity to be in one long ago and coming from where I came from with my father, I think that in the headset, I'm amazed that I didn't take it up sooner. Um, depending on the co-op, I mean, people should know about this.

They, you know, there's some 236 co-ops in Toronto alone. Um, and they're roughly referred to, I think in politics as subsidized housing. But they are not. There are different kinds of subsidized housing and you know in the case of my co-op which is called Windmill Line, it's only subsidized in the sense that it once received a mortgage from a bank that was guaranteed by the government. The rest of it is not a subsidy.

If you know what, it's funny how, you know, we talk about subsidized, you know, everybody who takes a loan is subsidized. It doesn't matter whether you're GM or, you know, a homeowner or a car, you're subsidized. And so it's funny how it falls there, but the, in our co-op, for instance, you can be a doctor or a lawyer. There's no limit on the earnings that you make. Your only requirement is to show that you can pay your rent. And your rent is, can be adjusted. Some, some members, 25% can have adjusted rent. And traditionally the subsidy comes from an internal pool,

not from the government. So, um, that's beginning to change a little bit with COVID mess, kind of turn things around a bit, but for the most part, 75% of the members of the co-ops, we have 216 units. It's pretty big. Um, they all contribute a hundred dollars a month into a subsidy pool.

So if you are a member and you're going through a hard time, you lost your job, you've got battle cancer, you can, you can request a subsidy and it has no bearing on anybody outside the building. No, fascinating. Yeah. So that's the best kind of co-op, I think, where it doesn't matter what your political view. It's a, it's just, it's a neighborhood taking care of itself. Okay. Speaking of taking care of itself. Okay, speaking of taking care of yourself, so when you realized you had to leave your mother's home

because you wanted to be a musician, how old are you at this point? 16. So at 16 you realize, well, if I want to be in music, I gotta get out of here. Yeah. Where'd you go? I got really lucky.

It's just a good story. So I was already, I think by the age of 15, I was planning my exit and I was watching Much Music, the beginning of Much Music. I was seeing a band, I remember seeing Le Trangé with Andy Cash, a few other bands like that. I had a, I used to deliver newspapers, the Globe and Mail, and I would take on what were called adult roots,

and I had a boss who kinda, I think he was very sensitive to me and he was watching me thinking, wow, this kid's probably a little lost or messed up. And I told him the summer before I left out, I said, I need to find a job downtown. I'm gonna leave home. And I hadn't told my mother.

And he said, well, I know these guys down on Baldwin street who run a restaurant called Yofi's. Yofi's on Baldwin street was vegetarian, Middle Eastern, one of the few at the time. And they were two ex Israeli, I think one had been the cook had been a tank commander, you know, the other, and they had this beautiful business.

And when I went there, it was John Deloria, who ended up being the bass player in Pig Farm was also in Les Trangers originally and Jolly Tambourine, man, and a bunch of other pivotal early Toronto bands in the alt rock or punk scene. He worked there as well as a lot of other people who I know now, Jane Brown, who's an opera singer. It was a place where you could have green hair, you could have a Mohawk and they twisted the rules a bit. I was too young to work or serve alcohol.

So they just kept me in the kitchen until I turned 18 and then you can serve, you can't drink it, but you can, you know, yeah. I'm just thinking now a dough boys, right? He was in dough boys. He know, yeah. I'm just thinking now, uh, doughboys, right? He was in doughboys. He was. Yeah. Shout out to doughboys. Yeah. Shout out to Scotty Mack, who went on to form, uh, one of my favorite bands, Rusty.

That's right. Yeah. So that was, and yeah, we used to share a lot of gigs with the doughboys. I was actually asked to try out as well at the same time as John and we were in pig farm and we actually had to have a meeting where this is a really great opportunity.

Do you want it or do I want it? And, uh, he took the, he took it. He, well, he tried out and won the spot, obviously. Yeah. Okay. So does pig farm come out of Yofi's? Where does pig. Oh gosh.

No, whether you, do you mean the name or the band itself? No, just the band itself. It certainly comes out of the neighborhood, and the downtown core. I lived on Cecil street. John lived on Grange Avenue, um, uh, 57 Grange, which was a real kind of hub at the time for

all rock musicians, I guess. You know, one of those cases where 10 people live in a three story house and share their place. And, um, but we, the, the, the, uh, the initial explosion, the splitting of the atom happens at that house where I had been harassing John to play. He was already a local star. I was a complete nobody, dishwasher, and with a bright blue guitar and I kept harassing

him and he kept kind of turning me down. I did try for a band with him and a few members of Andy Cash's band, Bruce P.M. It was a temporary thing and I didn't make it. But one day he finally acquiesced and he said, okay, I know this drummer and this bass player, come on over, we're going to try it out in our basement. And that became Pig Farming. It was a four piece at the time. Leslie Becker, who I've just started playing with now again, John Delorey and Sean Kinsella, who left the music industry almost entirely not long after but so that's the impetus but the name Leslie and I shortly after got a studio at

the Coffin Factory down at 109 Niagara Street which was a complete you know warren of musicians and artists and we lived across from the abattoir so we thought pig farm that'll do it. Which is and pig farm, that'll do it. And pig farm for the record, because when I Google search it, sometimes it's two words. I believe it's one word. Can you definitively tell us? I cannot. I can't tell you whether you can, who can?

Come on, Adam. I haven't been able to distinguish it because I myself, I have posters that are one word, posters that are two. I found both in my searches here. And it's a, I feel like even from now on it should be one word Even just for SEO purposes, right? Okay, because if you search pig farm, you know what you're gonna get You're gonna get pig stuff about pig farms, but pig farm one word. That's you guys. Okay

Okay from now on okay. I play a little pig farm and you can get into the nitty-gritty on Pig farm. Love it. Okay, let's play a little bit of this. For those who don't remember Pig Farm. And that's you singing. That is, yeah. Yeah, they're all mine I'll stick to my hands They'll arrest me I'm all safe And no guns that works best for me But I say something true

Say something true for once But I say Say something true for once How about I say Say something true for once How about I say something true for once How about I say something Say something Every morning I wake up with the hopes that I'm drunk I'm hoping we'll stay right through to the groove when the groove hits.

We have time. Make time. Michael Phillips. Oh yeah, he's an FOTM too. Shout him out. Michael, say hello Michael. Michael Fila Voya Ouna. We just saw each other the other night. Oh here he is playing drums! Here we go. And that makes complete sense, he worked with the Berenica ladies.

Right. We were signed to Page Publications. Along with the lowest to the low and yeah, the Bear Naked Ladies. So Page Publications is Stephen Page's dad, right? Correct. And I believe, this is a fun fact for the listenership, I believe that's Steve Simmons' uncle is what I believe. I don't know that, but I'll figure, yeah. Steve tells me that anyways, but Page Productions put out the yellow tape, the famous yellow tape in Bare Naked Ladies Land and Shakespeare, My Butt by Lois of the Low. And Plug by Pig Farm.

And Plug by Pig Farm. You know, there's a Lois of the Low documentary by a gentleman who's going to be at TMLX16 tonight, head, Simon Head. And in that doc, Stephen Page's dad and brother are joking that people thought they knew what they were doing, like all this cool indie music coming out of Page Productions, they thought, oh, maybe they have a good ear, but they were literally like, no, they were just, you know, fulfilling this need or whatever for artists who needed it. But you guys were on board. So is it... how did you get involved with Page Productions?

While this outro happens on the song, I'm going to prepare that answer. Okay, no, let's listen to the outro. This is live, by the way. I'm gonna be a man What the hell is going on? I love it though. It sounds like early Pearl Jam to me. Like, let's go. Love it. I think Pearl Jam came later, didn't they?

Yeah, well they come out of Mother Love Bone. Yeah. And we're talking about 1990, I suppose, on Pearl Jam 4. Same timey. So the answer to your question, I was trying to write this down. Like I have my pen and paper. I'm so old school.

I'm not sure. That's the answer. Cause I started thinking it either came through. So there were quite a few bands at the time following Pig Farm and, uh, and other musicians and people like Head. So Noah Mintz and, and Brendan Canning. Yeah. Um, uh, you know, that, that whole collection

of people that include, uh, Feist, I'm not, um, and they're a little bit younger than me and at Bare-Naked Ladies as well. I think we're amongst that group. I'm not, but as you pointed out, Michael Voiavoda produced Gordon, our drummer at the time. I'm not, but as you pointed out, Michael Voiavoda produced Gordon, our drummer at the time. I'm not sure, it might've been Jody Fernie Howe, our manager who was working with Peer Music.

And then he has a company now called CCS Rights Management, which is a big publishing group. Um, I don't know how that happened. I think we, we were fiercely independent, by independent I mean not associated with any organization whatsoever. Not knowing how. And you're recording your own stuff on like a multi-track cassette deck, right?

Yeah, originally. But that album was recorded at, no, sorry, at Reaction Studios. The original reaction. But that's a reaction that was in the West End, in the back alley of Niagara Street, Tuckumseh Street, Robie Banerjee and Peter Polesnik, who's name you may know. They were the engineers on that. And Michael Phillip, of course, because he was in the band.

He kind of, but it was recorded pretty quick. I think it was a week, top to bottom 10, 10,000 bucks with, you know, advertising in kind of thing, fairly live. And we actually, I remember we took it over to the new reaction to master it and we mastered it on a ghetto blaster. I do remember that. Wow. Yeah.

Okay. So as I soaked this in though, you have a guest on that recording right a member of bare naked ladies Like what's the name of that song we just played? Planet Chris Am I right that maybe Tyler Stewart's on that he's in the video He's in the video. Okay, so he's not playing on but they were hanging out and I know he's not playing Michael's playing right Drums myself andne is on cello. A gaggle of people came over to sing backups. You hear the kind of the choir stuff in the beginning and I honestly don't remember who

may have dropped in and who didn't. But it's Michael, John Deloria and myself playing the instruments, that's for sure. Wow. But yeah, that connection, the ladies, our drummer, the drummer who replaced Michael, seven drummers in that band, by the way, is shared an apartment on Bathurst Street. My God, Steve Pitkin, and Steve is now in that band. The three of them, they wear big hats.

They're really quite big right now. They tour a lot, they're called. It's kind of a roots band. The three amigos. No, not Steve Martin. Not to be confused with Steve Martin and those guys. Anyway, he's a big rock star now too. Wow, geez.

But there's, yeah, so he would just show up at video stuff. There was a connection briefly. I just saw Steve he would just show up at, you know, video stuff. There was a connection briefly. I just saw Stephen Page the other day at Massey Hall because he was opening for Billy Bragg. Amazing. And I went with Blair and Michael Phillip was there sitting next to me along with-

Who lives near here. Annalise Nirana as well. And oh yeah, so Paisley Yura and oh my gosh, yeah. So all those people were there. And because I've been out of it for a while, here I am rambling. I've been out of it for a while, here I am rambling. I've been out of the scene for a little while. It was really interesting to see everybody all in one place.

Well, we're gonna, so taking us back there. So when Pig Farm, you guys record Plug. So who's playing Pig Farm in Toronto? Like CKLN, is that the Ryerson station? Is that where, where would you hear Pig Farm in Toronto. Yeah, CFNY, CKLN, York. So would CFNY, I guess that's where I'm going here. A little bit. A little bit?

Peak farm did better out of South Toronto. So by that era, so I think I, I sent you somewhere, I told you the story the first time I heard myself, which was on CIUT and I was working with Michael Snow. He's an artist, a Canadian artist. Of course. Of renown. Big deal. And so I. No longer with Michael Snow. He's an artist, a Canadian artist. Of course.

Of renown. Big deal. And so I- No longer with us, sadly. Yeah. He- Except, can I question your story and tell you, I think it was CKLN where you heard yourself first?

Sure. I only, only because- That's- Is that- Did I write that down? Yeah. Well then let's believe that. Although it could have been CIUT.

Well, we did a lot of work simultaneously. So you know what? You're, you're probably right. Well, it's you that's right. But the old you, the new you thinks of CIUT now. Maybe I, maybe, you know what? I wrote it. It must be so. Um, at any rate, the story is I was at 9 Hannah street, which is now a police, uh, warehouse. It was a big old warehouse and I was at 9 Hannah Street, which is now a police warehouse. It was a big old warehouse and I was working on those sculptures and my job was to spray the giant isocrit, you know, that substance that expands into foam.

We had taken the maquettes of his sculptures. They were small, like two or three feet high. Our job was to build the large armature out of steel and then wrap it in bedding foam and then spray it with this. Because I know where this story is going, I feel like we need to really set this up right because this is a mind blow. So I got to warn the listenership they're about to get a mind blow here. So Michael Snow and you and a bunch of artists are at 9 Hannah Street working on these sculptures.

Yeah. Okay. And you're now, so these are like these mammoth sculptures Street, working on these sculptures. Yeah. Okay. And you're now, so these are like these mammoth sculptures you're working on. Yeah. And tell us whatever happened to these mammoth sculptures that Michael Snow and you and many other artists were working on at this time. And I'll be clear, I was the lowly technician. The sculptures are now on the sky, the dome, the Rogers Center, the sky dome.

This is the audience. The audience. My goodness gracious. I had my hand, I have pictures of myself, you know, standing next to those sculptures and I had this horrible gig. Like my gig was the worst of all. I had these two big like, you know, containers of chemicals that mixed together and I had to wear this space suit and this respirator. At least they had you wearing something. And I had this gun because I had to deal with all these horrific chemicals and spray, spray

the armatures. I mean, I was part of the early creation of bringing them up to the math of, you know, expanding them. Wow. And I used to get, I'd show up at the Beverly Tavern after work covered in rashes and spots and, and, you know, weird little sores. But you knew what you were working on? like you knew this was for the new dome? Absolutely, oh yeah.

Okay, because I mean the fact that we can, what an iconic you know work of art in this city. I mean there's not a person listening who hasn't seen the audience at the dome. I know and it's odd every time I go there I still have a habit of saying pointing it out to my daughter and saying and she's kind of like how could you not whatever dad? You know how it is. It doesn't matter But you know, can you imagine a day where you walk by the dome and the audience is there? you know the fans or whatever and the audience and You don't mention that fun fact to whoever you're with like that. So that's the time to shut it down Like, you know shadow to Ridley funeral home

It's time to get your book in there because you're done. Like if you can walk by the audience and not point out to whoever you're with, I worked on that. Like, right? That's everything. Of course you got to point it out. It's like, if your song comes on the radio,

you're like, you know, that's me singing. Yeah. Well, I think sometimes, and I find this as a kind of common thread in my life, there was a time when I kind of, after a steady period of touring, performing, living off music, writing, I took a break and I got a job at the Ontario Science Centre

as an AV person and I found myself sitting talking to people and anything I told them, they just wouldn't believe me because it depends what, because I have many, many stories. I can tell you that even there's, if you search Wikipedia, which you might've done, you won't find anything. Do you know why? Why?

Because I've been barred from telling my story. I kid you not. I wrote an entry, a simple entry, and I put my prehistory, which we haven't really gone into, into my story and who I grew up with, my father, Al Fox, who also you may or may not know designed the G2 for Claretone. You know, the spacey stereo with the big round

cast iron speakers. I think so. Yeah. He was a well-known guy, but he also, you know, died relatively unknown, but also the radio arm drafting table. And there's a stamp, a Canadian stamp put out about 25 years ago.

Um, and then I wrote things like I lived in deodesic domes and teepees and there's these experiments and these living and they just wrote back to me and said, this is not possible. You're lying. And they, I guess they take your IP. They want you to corroborate. You need to link. I just, so, you know, the most, not the most, the most recent episode of Toronto mic to Stephen Brunt, but the one before that between Marsden and Brunt, we did an FOTM cast and we did a whole segment on the Wiki police and how we've

been trying to get some stuff on Wiki, which belongs there. And we're having difficulty shadow to Rosie grade Tio, because you have to kind of like Toronto Mike, you need to have corroborate with sources like the Globe and Mail. We have to link to an article there at the CBC. It's very difficult for guys like you and I to get content on Wikipedia. Yeah. Even if it belongs there and even if it's true. And over time, books are coming out now that corroborate some of it. And students, you know, the students of my father, as they became well known designers, et cetera.

They tell their story in an environment that is considered respected or academic or whatever. And then you start to see these things unfold. I do think that a lot of it is just something I, I'm just, yeah, I've kind of given up sometimes telling the stories. And I think it's, the other day I was reading Chris Stein's biography, Blondie. Right.

And when I read books like that, I feel at home because it's so insane. The Queen Street West, I think as an environment in the 80s, was very much like New York City in the 70s. You know, somebody like Chris Stein who came from Brooklyn, you know, kind of haphazardly fell into music, but suddenly he was surrounded with Bowie, Iggy Pop, you know, Andy Warhol, the factory. And he just, he's in it, you're in it.

And he had no intention of being there. And I think that was possible on Queen street as well. You know, there's a period there for about a decade where, I did the math, something that 60 people became international stars and they lived within two miles of each other across that strip. Well, do you mind maybe sharing a little more detail since you were there?

Because I'm personally very interested in this scene at that time. Yeah. Well, I think that you know what I realized? I didn't answer the first question. I don't even remember what the question was. We deviated.

Don't worry. Oh, the listening to the song. Can I just finish the Michael Snow song? Because yes, because you debated me on it and we got to finish it. Right. CKLN, not CIUT. Yes. Important details. We need to capture the truth.

And shout out to Charlie Angus, who is an FOTM, and I believe he's writing a book about this scene, this Queen Street scene, I believe. Is he? I don't know. I think it's like he's, it's coming soon. Yeah, good. I'd love to read it. I think there's some perspectives, you know,

I'm considered a young Queen Streeter, so I came, you know, three years too late kind of thing. So here's what we're gonna do. We're gonna wrap up the audience story with Michael Snow. But then you got to get back to the Queen Street in the late 80s. I need to know more about it. Quick thing. One day we're all sitting around, we're working on the sculptures, the carving. I'm picking at the scabs of my arms from the chemicals and we're listening to the radio and Michael Snow, not just an artist, he was a musician and the CCMNC was a kind of a groundbreaking alternative music group in Toronto,

often associated with the music gallery, another Queen Street, you know, thing. And so, and so they would listen to college radio and our song that had been recorded with Michael, Peter Hudson, I believe, we had been, you've read the story about the cassette tapes, but we went in, we fired the bass player. And I said, I have a couple of songs, we recorded a song and it came on the radio. And I thought, well, I can either be the dog's body for great artists, or I can pursue this musical thing. There I am, I must have made it by now, you know, I thought, well, I can either, you know, be the dog's body for great artists, or I can pursue this musical thing.

There I am, I must've made it by now, you know, I thought. And I, you know, either foolishly or wisely took up the music side. But I could have easily fallen into visual arts because I was also surrounded by that. So, now you wanna know about Queen Street? I think Queen Street, so I had a view of it already because my father had taught at OCA.

So when I was at five or six, I used to hang around. So just north of Queen Street, off McCall is OCA. Um, and so, you know, the Habedasher slash, I guess, in, you know, in flux of the Chinese and East Asian culture neighborhood, along with, I think with Portuguese and Italian working class, it was just like an amazing neighborhood and Queen's Street itself was ideal because nobody wanted to go there. My apartment was 300 bucks at the corner of Queen's, but I know three bedroom, right?

Across from the horseshoe tavern, except for, you know, it seemed like they disenfranchised or the people who had grown up there in their families. And so, you know, three story buildings with stores and fruit stores and bakeries and butchers and lots of bars and lots of cheap apartments. And in the near vicinity, lots of cheap warehouse space that was associated with, I guess, the garment industry earlier on, right?

So lots of rehearsal space. It was just ideal, cheap, ideal, and quiet, and a couple of great local bars like the Beverly Tavern, the Cameron, the horseshoe. You know, and so it was ideal. And I think people from all over kind of flocked there because it was an, it was an alternative to what was going on in the

world. Um, I think there was a, you know, a throwback to acoustic, everything that was on the radio at the time couldn't be performed by normal people. You couldn't be a regular person and have a $600,000 synth. You couldn't imitate Madonna. You couldn't imitate that early eighties stuff,

you know? So, hence, I think my, my view of lowest of low, bare naked ladies, even pig farm, it was kind of a return to kind of a folk attitude, uh, guitar, bass, drums, you know, it was, it was wonderful. It was crazy. You know, the speakeasies the I can't even begin that's a whole podcast but I just ideal and dangerous too easy

to get yourself in deep well would you want to name check some of the you know artists who might be there who were there I would say so peaches so Meryl Niskar Sarah Harmer you know obviously blue rodeo guys handsome Ned handsome them gave me my first haircut he gave me a rockabilly Mohican Wow yeah well Jim Cuddy's you know speaks very highly of handsome Ned as a mentor there. Yeah. Yeah. And I guess you'd have to say the older crowd, which I say the older crowd, and I was lucky to get in with the older crowd. You know, there's the people hanging around,

like Andy Cash and Chuck Angus and that whole gang. What else? I mean, in the punk scene, there were the goofs, of course. And so it was also the center of traveling bands, so anybody, SNFU or if they toured Canada, they certainly played there. I saw Dinosaur Jr. at the Cameron house.

Wow. The Cameron house. No, that's, that's, I didn't know that they played Cameron. Yeah. Stacks, the full stacks. It just, you know, seeing stuff like that in that, uh, I was an early fan of Teenage Head. Of course, you know, seeing stuff like that in that,

I was an early fan of Teenage Head, of course. One of our first gigs, Pig Farm, was opening for Teenage Head. Wow. And recently, you know, the replacement singer, Dave Rave, saw him at a gallery thing recently. He's been here? Yeah. Shout out to Dave Rave.

The Shakers? Yeah, he came on fairly recently, but then I did bump into him. Tom Wilson, there was his book, Beautiful Scars, they did a musical. And at the premiere, I was just, Stephen Brunton, I was just talking about, I bumped into him there too, with him, Dave Hodge, only the sports guys were there,

but yeah, definitely Dave Rave was there. Kevin Hearn was there. A whole bunch of cool artists were there. Kevin Drew? Kevin Drew. I'm thinking rehearsal space on Soho Street, across the hall was Bruce Coburn, Colin Linden.

We shared a space with the look people. Is James B famous? James, James B. Would you consider James B famous? He's Toronto famous. I'm amazed by his, uh, I don't know how he, he has that persona and I haven't spoken to James in a long, long time, but I'm watching him as the

jazz aficionado of the world. And it's so directly opposed to what I knew of him in the lucky people. Yeah, absolutely. You know, uh, yeah, it's just astonishing. And I think one thing I'm very proud of is being still alive after living in that environment. And because it was easy to do some serious damage.

Wow. I'm on the live stream. Jeremy Hopkins is there. He's the official Toronto historian of Toronto mic. Jeremy Hopkins will be, I want to let the listenership know before Halloween, he's dropping by to kick out haunted Toronto. So we're going to talk about, uh, places in

Toronto that are, I'll put quotes around it. Haunted. Okay. That's always fun to do that before Halloween. But he, he just says on the live stream, uh, places in Toronto that are, I'll put quotes around it, haunted. Okay. That's always fun to do that before Halloween. But he, he just says on the live stream, uh, Queen West got gentrified, gentrified and it destroyed its cool. So when did Queen West stop being the Queen

West that you remember so positively? Well, so I, I, I don't know. It wasn't so quick. I mean, I think it, there was a time when the Rex hotel, um, I would say that's where the strip began and cause you, I spent maybe a couple of weeks, it's a place I lived briefly, the Rex hotel. Um, maybe a week or two, but it was one of those

places between couches or, cause there's a lot of couches in there somewhere too. Um, I think it was gradual and a lot of us, you know, I started living at Queen and Spadina and then I moved to Queen in Bathurst and then I moved to Queen in Ossington and then I moved to, you know, and eventually ended up in Parkdale at Ronsey, you know, on King.

So slowly just got pushed west. I try to remind myself, and that neighborhood is still chock full of musicians, you know, the metric people and all that, especially Parkdale, north of Queen. I try not to think of it as the gentrification, certainly when I visit Queen Street, I'm just, I'm astonished at the disappearance of what I knew as Queen Street, but at the same time,

you know, you can still hit the camera on a Sunday night and see some of the best players. Just I'm still blown away by what happens. So the venues themselves, I think have maintained, um, a certain aura and, and still have an influence despite who visits there in the day, you know. Good point. So I don't think it's over, but I also,

sometimes where, you know, and maybe traveling does this, I think people can overstate the value of certain moments, scenes, venues, and this is not an anti-history, but I remind myself that all over the world, there are thousands of scenes and clubs and hip strips and cool places. And the more I live, the more I realized

that this one is just one and it's okay if it moves on. It's okay if it changes and adjusts and moves. And finally, I was in Hamilton yesterday playing a daytime show, as I said, and it felt like it was 1989 in a good way, in the best way. It was somebody's basement, It was an art gallery. They didn't have to pay rent for it. I mean, somebody pays rent,

but do you know what I mean? There wasn't a fee associated. It was a pass the hat eight songwriters, uh, saying and played and all very good. Some of you may know, like, uh, simply saucer at Edgar bro. He was there. Um, and it was literally an amp, a kind of this, Edgar, Edgar bro. He was there. Um, and it was literally an amp, a kind of this. Yeah. It was just a makeshift gig and, uh, it was wonderful. And it was so, I think that a movement back to

community studio based house parties is not such a bad thing. You had to go to Hamilton to get that. Yeah, but that's okay. I don't mind. That's Ben murky tells me it's a Toronto's Brooklyn. That's what he's been trying to see on for a while Now I could see that

Now I'm gonna bring you back if it's okay Just cuz I mean we could talk forever, but I'm gonna bring you back to pig farm here. Okay, so plug Big big hit on college radio in this country. Mm-hmm Like I I was reading it went to number one It was that number one for a few months on college radio. So this is where I'll make a correction for you. I think we had an album before Plug. It was called Hold Your Nose and there were a couple hits from there. One was called Subway Surfing and another was 18 Wheelers. And to this day if I meet a pig farm fan, those are the songs that they'll bring up.

Where would one hear, where can you hear those songs today? Spotify. So songs folks. Yeah. Yeah. I put it up recently. Um, you can also go to my, my band camp for Adam Fox. I posted something on Facebook recently.

Um, yeah, that's the, I mean, I think we, we almost went there. I think pig farm did better outside of Toronto. So we were more likely to chart in Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton. Initially we got lots of support from the CBC brave, brave new waves. Way back. You know, I bumped into on a Saturday, Brent Bambery. There you go. Yeah. At the arena. I'm at my kids hockey arena. There's Brent Bambery.

We had a great chat. I tweeted a photo of us together, but we were talking about all those brave new waves fans I still hear from because of his episode of Toronto Mike. Yeah. Well, that's, that's, it was a lifeline. And for people who don't know, because, uh, that show, you had to go to Montreal to tape it.

And if you get, but if you could get them to advertise your tour itinerary before the internet, it was the only way for someone in Kamaloops to know that you were coming through town. There just was no network greater than Brave New Wave's Brent Brambury and all the other people associate, Kevin Kimono, right?

I think took over or worked with him on that. Possibly, yeah. Michael Barclay was there at some point. I'm trying to track him up. So in this day and age where we're, you know, you mentioned you lost a thumb practically from a now magazine, right? I was wondering if Hollett cut you a check for

that or whatever. No, in fact, I left now magazine after that because, uh, they gave me zeros. There was no injury support. No, nothing. And it was pretty, there was no union. Um, yeah. Um, but so, but now, you know, there is no now

anymore. I mean, someone bought the logo, but it's not now magazine. And my thumb exists in its entirety. So I win. So I was because I was checking out your thumb during that story and it looks intact to me. So I have liver missing. No, no, it's fine. If you it didn't go straight across, it went from the side to the center here, like a slice.

Okay. Okay. And disappeared. Okay. And so they had to treat it every day. My doctor at Women's College Hospital, Dr. Heisey, shed her to Dr. Heisey. She just retired, but she became chief of staff at Women's College. You know, I know someone, someone very close to me was a patient of Dr. Heisey. I know this name. Amazing. Amazing doctor. I met her, I think in 1993 and pulled me through the worst times of my life, but also healed my thumb. And yeah, if you

care for it, it does grow back as long as it's not right across. Okay, I know, I didn't know this. Okay, amazing. So, all right, so now I'm trying to track where we're at, but can I play a little clip I pulled just to give some context from the time? And it might be fun to talk about.

Now it's long clips, I'm not gonna play it all. In fact, at some point I'll bring it down, but this is something I think worth. Start things off. As always, I'll be to the pig farm. And things off, as always I'll feature this week is Pig Farm. And that's Simon Evans. Is that Simon Evans? Yeah, Ringfinger.

Pig Farm. Live on much. Reunited and features Adam Fox, ex of the Lost Dakotas, John of the Bellboys, and the new drummer, Michael Phillip, who of course is a well-known producer doing such like of the Bear Naked Lady, which you of course know. Also talk today on the aesthetics and change of heart. who of course is a well-known producer doing such like of the Bare Naked Lady, which you of course know. Yes. Ummm... Also talk today on the aesthetics and change of heart. Video was produced by James B. of the Lord's People.

You know him. And they have an upcoming gig February 19th in Toronto at Alta Sound. Anyway, as always, our little edit this week is Pick Farm. Because we all start off with an edit. You wouldn't know it, Dave. On Indie Street. Pick Farm. When you raise the name, please remember.

Oh my God. This is from live footage, right? Yeah. Yeah. This was pulled from Indy Street, which was on Much Music. Simon Evans. And those names you're dropping,

all these names you're dropping there, like, just love them all. Like, what a scene. Pig Farm. Possibly the least known, best known band of that era, you know, Pig Farm. We were more... Adam was here with Urban Decay, and this year, Pig Farm. So Ken Meyer, Alistair Jones, Urban Decay.

Andy Stachanski was in Urban Decay again as a drummer. For us, the bands we were playing in just weren't that fulfilling. We liked better what we used to do. It was really a long, a long time. What year is this? 91 or something? In Pig Farm before we did a lot of touring and a lot of recording. It's gotta be pretty. It was frustrating for a while. This is the young dreaded Adam. Not dreaded, not feared. Oh I saw that, sort of like the guy from, yeah, like John Casper. Yeah, well that's why I was offered the gig and the doughboys, I have to tell you. This is February 5th, 1993.

Of Bear Naked Ladies,, real static, producer fame. Yeah. He's taking time out of the... Is he gonna be... Is he like a full-time member or is he just in the band for now? I think he's full-time. He says he's full-time, yeah. His episode of Charm Mike is fantastic.

Yeah. You gotta listen to that. I think we'll be arranging a schedule around him. And he doesn't do a lot of that, so... That's John singing. Did you ever gig with Rusty? I know Ken fairly well, but you know what, I don't remember. It seems like we probably did, what I don't remember it seems like we probably did but I don't remember. So why did it come to an end for Pigfarm? I think I was burnt up primarily.

No record just recording. We talked to a label here called Albury Street. They said they put something out for us to a superhandom so we're looking at January for that in terms I stand stucco Dan stucco who's now in New Jersey somewhere. Hello, Dan Mulberry Street. He lived on that's a story in itself There's a mafia story So the question was what happened to pig farm pig farm? I think it was my exhaustion. It was my pure exhaustion We've gone back and forth across the country a couple times we had gone through three drummers in the space of You know, I don't know five months And I think it was we tasked drummers with a really they had to sing and they had to put up with John and I

Basically, and we were a bit psycho and and we had big expectations of what a drummer would play in terms of, I guess, the sophistication. It wasn't a straight ahead rock and roll band, which probably is the reason why it didn't become a huge popular band. We did an album and we did a couple of tunes like My Deside B that would be four chords, might appeal to people in general, but if you listen to the rest of plug you'll see that there's you know There's bagpipes and there's some psychedelic moments and there's a lot of key changes and pitch changes and time changes that Make it not very pop radio. I'm not even alt radio. So I think we became one of those bands that musicians loved

Not so much the public if you know what I mean I think so I've always thought of like the real statics as a bit like that. Like they had a couple of exceptions, like Claire, and maybe record body count, but most of it's sort of esoteric and it's a musician's musician and he's not really going to be a pop, you're not going to hear them on, you know, Chum FM. Yeah. I'm trying to, there's so much water on the bridge between the rheostatics and ourselves.

There's so many connections, you know, Michael, because Dave Clark left the Rios to join Pig Farm for a while as our drummer. We had a tour in 89, I think it was, with Dave Clark on drums. I think that maybe it was the outward expression of who we all are that was very different. And I've always thought as of the rheostatics,

and I don't mean this in a derogatory way at all, is very, very, very smart, intellectual, sensitive, especially when I think of Martin Tielli's work, really insightful, but also very middle-class, and very stable. So whereas I think for pig farm, we were all, uh, but an inch from the street and in not in, uh, and, and our, our reality was a little harsher.

I can, I, I'm thinking right now, and, uh, I don't know if Dave Medina will remember this. We, we used to, if one of our first tours of Canada was kind of constantly intersecting with the Rio's and Dave Bookman as well with Tim Mack on guitar, um, and a few other bands. And we went out to this festival in 87 Vancouver, but we played an after hours club in Calgary

called the Acoustic Gaga. And it was a stopover where you could stay a few days. They had a great band room. You know, you'd play from 12 to 4 a.m. kind of thing. That's when the gigs were. And I remember we played Wendell Clark, the real song Wendell Clark.

Yeah, the ballad Wendell Clark. Well, Wendell Clark, we used to love playing it. Volumes one and two. Mm-hmm. And I think one of those recordings were on at the end. There was a live recording at COET that was used as part of an album with the reels. Anyway, and I remember Benidi and I getting in a bit

of a tussle about the importance of punk versus pop or smart pop or alt-pop. There was that, and I think there was a divide right there and then because I think my, at the time, not now, but my perspective was informed by a much, perhaps a harsher reality of what it was to live life. And I think as time has gone on, everything from the clash, it's amazing, you know,

to think that what was considered antisocial is now, I hear it when I'm shopping in La Blas. Do you know what I mean? It's one of those things. Right. And I don't know if this is, what I'm shopping in La Blas. Do you know what I mean? It's one of those things. And I don't know if this is, what I'm saying is making any sense, but I know what you mean. The rheostatics are very,

are really ethereal and not popular music based. But somehow they managed to get across to their audience that they were lovable and likable, whereas we failed miserably in that respect. You know, we were critical and we had big mouths and, and we didn't really, we didn't guard ourselves very well. It sounds like a bit like what Ron Hawkins might say from lowest to the low, which is that they did everything

they could to sort of shoot themselves in the foot when it came to any kind of, you know, major label rep, they had the corporate, Sucks, I think, was the T-shirts they wore for their showcase, and they didn't do videos, you know? I think of a, Lois, a little video on Much Music. I'll give you as much time as you need, you know? Where, as Pursuit of Happiness, you know,

they film, at Queen and Spadina, they film a video. Right there at Soho, yeah, I'm an adult now, right? Yeah. Right there in front of the bamboo. Big Much Music, Big now, right? Yeah. Right there in front of the bamboo. Big, much music spins. Hey, so you mentioned the Ballad of Lionel Clarke, which I quite like, because the video lets you see the old mill donuts.

It's like an Etobicoke, it's like a view of old Etobicoke that I grew up knowing. And the old mill donuts was at Dundas and Islington, kind of. Anyway, I went to high school at Michael Power down the street, so I knew this old mill Donuts. It's in the video. But when Dave Hodge came over, big super music fan,

Dave Hodge, who hosted Hawkinghead in Canada at the time, he's name checked in the Ballad of Wendell Clark. I think there's a line about Dave Hodge. It's a really cool line about Dave Hodge. Yeah. I think that's the same tune I'm thinking of where we were all in the studio at CIUT. Okay. I think. Well, then, because Dave H of where we were all in the studio at CIUT. Okay.

I think. Well, then, because Dave Hodge, which I played it when he came over and as far as he knows, it's the only song he's ever been name checked in and he's a super music fan. So he was quite honored by that. But did you, were you friendly with Dave Bookman? Yes, but I didn't know him well as soon as he is career launched as a radio guy. He has a radio guy. Yeah. As a radio guy. Sure. I just wondered, I know if every time you play the horseshoe, you see now the, uh,

the monument to him outside. Yeah, absolutely. Um, I, you know, see speaking, I want to tell you, this is how stupid we were, you know? Um, we had a rule that we, if you wanted to be on the guest list in your industry, you were automatically ejected. Yeah. We would not let you in free. No. Cause our thing was you've got the money. This is your job. Right. So, you know, very interesting. Uh, if you could do it all over again, would you, uh, would you be dead? Would you, cause you could, you could make pig from,

I'm thinking of like sublime or something. Like why can't pig farm be that? Like would you do it differently if you could relive the late eighties, early nins? Absolutely not. Okay, there's the answer. No regrets. No, none at all. And I think right now because I'm playing a lot and my band is playing some of these songs, I think they stand out better now and they work even better in the present context. They work even better in the present context. Yeah, I wouldn't change a thing.

There's maybe a few lyrics I might alter, but other than that, no, I'm proud of our legacy. Okay. So the way things work around here is we spent 60 minutes basically getting ourselves in 1993 and maybe this might be the deepest pig farm dive you'll find on the worldwide web and I'm like honored that we're diving deep into pig farm. Can I give you some gifts and then we won't be spending an hour in the next 30 years but there is a subject I'm gonna I'm gonna see if you'll talk about that Blair Packham tipped me off about. But you're ready for some gifts And we'll walk through it? Yes, I'm ready for some gifts. I see them here in front of me.

Okay. I mentioned we're all getting together at the GLB Brew Pub tonight. Well, I'm going to send you home with some fresh craft beer from Great Lakes Brewery. Brewed, even though we're going to be at Jarvis and Queens Quay, it's brewed here in southern Etobicoke. So that's delicious and super fresh. And that's going home with you, Adam. Thank you very, very much, both you and GLB. Thank you to GLB. And, Palma Pasta typically feeds us at TMLX events, but they're not feeding us tonight,

because Great Lakes is gonna feed us with their great kitchen at the Brewpub. But on November 30th, which is a Saturday, at noon to 3 p.m., we're all gonna collect at Palma's kitchen in Mississauga and Palma pasta will feed us will record a live episode of Toronto Mike. So Adam, if you showed up, I throw you on the mic to say hi. It's going to be a great TML X 17. So just to repeat the day in time because everyone is invited to this TML X event at Palma's

kitchen November 30th, 2024 noon to 3 p.m. Be there! Threw that in there. Okay. Monaris has sent over a wireless speaker for you, Adam. It's right there. That's this. Yeah, it's a great Bluetooth speaker and you can listen to anything you want. That is entirely cool. I love these. Yeah, it sounds great too. But you must promise me that you'll subscribe and listen to Yes, we are open which is an award-winning podcast from mineras season 7 dropping now el grego Who will be at tmlx 17 on november 30th at palmas kitchen. He visited winnipeg manitoba and he spoke to

small businesses About their origins their, their future outlook. And they're not really business stories, but they're personal stories about businesses. And you'll learn a great deal from yes, we are open. So you got a nice new speaker. Awesome. I've written it down and I'm just admiring this. You know, I love that you write stuff down.

That's amazing. This is going to last, I got to say about 20 seconds on my desk and then my, my 15 year old is going to come and grab it and steal it and take it to school. Well, it'll be very well loved. Do you know what I mean? I'll try. I'll try to keep it. I know exactly what you mean. So I got two older kids, two younger kids, and I always refer to the two older kids as the teens. But what's happened to this past summer is the youngest of the two turned 20. And I realized that even though we're still

calling them the teens, neither of them are teenagers anymore. And I just think that's a fun fact that we're, they're still called the teens, even though they're 22 and 20. Yeah. But they're still stealing the Bluetooth speakers that we leave around from an heiress. So that doesn't change.

It doesn't change. It's a constant. Absolutely. Uh, I want to shout out, recyclemyelectronics.ca because if you go there That doesn't change. It doesn't change. It's a constant. Absolutely. I want to shout out recyclemyelectronics.ca because if you go there and put in your postal code, you'll find out a place near you, you can drop off your old electronics, your old devices, your old cables to be properly recycled

so the chemicals do not end up in our landfill. Excellent. And last but not least, did you get that measuring tape? Oh, you got it right here. I love this the best. Sorry. It's okay, you. I mean, I'm enjoying this the most at the moment. Over time, I may prefer another one of the gifts. For instance, when I crack open my GLP beer and listen to music, Ripley's funeral home, Ridley, Ridley's funeral. That's okay. Ridley funeral home,

which is at 14th and Lakeshore. And Brad Jones has a great podcast. He's the funeral director there. He's going to be at TMLX 16 tonight at great GL. I'll introduce you to Brad Jones. His podcast is called life's undertaking. And every two weeks we drop a new episode and it's fantastic. So thank you. Great lakes. Thank you. Palma. Thank you. Mineris. Thank you. Raymond James. And thank you. Ridley funeral home. All right. You ready to get back to this now? So I don't know how to do this. I'm a little terrified, actually. What are you measuring?

My life. No, I know what the next topic is. I'm just going to say I have to be very, very careful. And I'll tell you why. Tell me. And if we can keep it to... Because the effects of politics in the environment I recently left,

which is the university, I'm even gonna, are serious enough to make it difficult for me to earn a living right now. And my spouse, my wife, is also at that, in that environment. And we are finding that what I've gone through is affecting her environment as well, quite strongly. Well, look, I'm not going to, so do any trouble here.

I won't even mention this institution of higher learning. Okay. I won't, I won't name it if you don't want me to, but so just so you don't be left in 93 here. So you, uh, you were, uh, you know, you were a musician, you're a sound engineer

at some point, you end up at a, uh, institution of higher learning. Yes. And the note I have, so I'll just say the note and then, uh, I don't think this will get anyone in trouble, but there's a conflict with this university. Like just share what you can. That won't get you in big trouble. Just because I was told a little bit that I won't repeat because I don't want to say anything. I'll let you say everything, but it's, uh, it's kind of a wild story and say what you can. But it's kind of a wild story and say what you can. Well, I can't tell you enough that I wish, and I'm thinking three or four months from now, it might be an entirely different environment

where I can really speak openly, but people, I don't know how well your audience knows the present environment at universities. It's pretty clear, you know, QB is, let's just say, very adamant about his position in the Middle East and those politics and the environment of ****. Okay, you know what? It requires some context to make it very clear. Okay, take it to me.

Because I know that now words can be misinterpreted or reinterpreted. I come I come from an environment and my own family is composed, we'll call it polyracial. My partner's family emigrated from East Africa. And I'm from an environment that was almost, open, very kind, very loving and not... I would say we spoke briefly of my father, someone who taught me to take every single person on their own terms in every way I could. Now I realize that when it comes to politics or figuring out the pension plan or something, it's very difficult to do that. But, and so I don't wanna engage in anything about the need for organization or groups.

But in my case, let's just say I defended, I teach, I was teaching rock and roll music, and a lot of my research, I should talk about my research, is about the integration of cultures, and the rejoicing in the integration of cultures. And that includes ethnicities. And it became clear at Y** that that was not something they rejoice in as well.

So when it came, I was teaching a course that has been taught by different really wonderful professors, one of which is Rob Bowman, Rob Sims, Matt VanderWood, people who kind of pioneered at least at you. Oh, there I just said it. You've actually said it a few times, but I said, I wouldn't say it. But you can say it. Well, anyway, it's not a because I think it's about an entire environment. And I'll just make that clear. It's not, I can tell you, it's not unique to that and to that particular university.

And the history of popular music in North America, which is the story of integration. It's the story of an expression of many cultures, many languages, many experiences, and that's the beauty and the best part of it. It was made, and all I can say, it was made clear to me that that was not the story I was to tell. And so I lost funding, I lost my position in research. And yeah, it's so, it's just very, I view it as a very sad time for culture. And being in, you can imagine, as I explained briefly what my family is.

My wife's family left East Africa because during the Edium Inn era, and they're Goan, and the Goans have a kind of combined culture of Asian, South Asian, India, Portuguese, and also African. There's a really wonderful mix of cultures there, but they were forced to leave Africa for Toronto and different parts of Europe for similar reasons that we have now, which in some people have this desire to segregate and to define themselves based in certain, I guess, categorical purities.

I would say that, because that's to me what is going on, that there's a real desire to segregate people. And I'll give you one example. In our family, a safe space based in color divides our family because we are considered a danger to each other. That's the simplest example I can give of the bigger picture, which is if you're a happy open productive pair but happen to not appear the same that really offends a lot of people and and they find it necessary to

segregate and separate you because you're I think you're an example of what is possible not because we are in our cell, in our, say, some kind of incredible magical pair, but I do find that the experience of families like ours can really put a finer point on political discussions, racial discussions, you know. discussions, racial discussions, you know. You know, it's, I had a long talk with my wife this morning about this and where to go and I think I really want to focus on more positive things right now because it really, I can tell you it's really been, it's been a trip, man. Yeah, well I can tell because you're being careful. Yeah. And I'm not usually like that, but it's, this is the most serious.

I, again, I can't, it's most serious I've been, I think ever. And I, and I, and I've been through a lot of my life, but this particular issue, uh, is, is, uh, you know, it's, it's heavy. And I would just like, you know, from my perspective, my personal perspective is to be open, to be kind. I believe that compassion is a word that suggests you want the best for others. And if I can enter into all my relationships like that, then I will. But I mean, just to add a little clarity, maybe without getting you in any trouble, but like, did, did you say something in your class that was, uh, that was complained about to somebody at this

institution? Like what exactly was the impetus for you having this conflict? Yeah, I wrote factual, uh, responses to students in their papers. I was grading. The students never saw the responses, but the person in charge of the course, uh, reported those responses and I was taken up to the dean's office to defend my position. Um, I won. My responses were factual. And, uh, and there's no, there is no doubt in anyone's mind that what I had said was absolutely correct from an academic point of view and from a history point of view. And it's nothing that crazy. That's the absurd part. It's not something that I think would offend most people. But you're not comfortable at this point telling us what exactly you said that caused the ire here. telling us what exactly you said that caused the ire here.

Like, I know, I don't want, like, I don't even have a, my problem is I don't even have a sense of what kind of trouble we're talking about here. Like, like. Well, it's based on present, you know, political views and stuff. I just stated some simple facts about who contributed to popular music in North America. So loosely I could tell you that I supported

the writers of say the song Strange Fruit, famously performed by Billie Holiday, written by a Jewish writer, Mel Aper, Paul, I believe. I supported Link Wray, who, you know, Rumble. Charlie Patton, who's a blues, famous blues singer, who is, I think, a mix of African American and Apache. Don't quote me on that, because I don't, but you know, there's an indigenous element there.

In short, popular music is made of contributions from so many So many different people from so many different walks of life ethnicities cultures and practices and It was made clear to me that I must not say that I'm so confused. What is I mean, what is their position? That would be a position that it? It was offensive to say that music, there's a movement within the universities to be purist about art forms.

In other words, if you come from somewhere, you perform that music. If you look like this, you perform that music. And some people shouldn't perform some musics because it's not their culture. Appropriation. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So it comes, their perspective comes from that. Um, the point was it's not so much, uh, you know, in the end I was taken to the, the Dean's office, the associate Dean's office, uh, chastised, but it was thrown out. There were three complaints. Um, um,

it was completely thrown out because I did nothing wrong. And, and, and I said nothing offensive either by the way, but the result was the hard part, which was days later the removal of support from my research and I wasn't paid for my work. And, and really I haven't worked for them since. So serious repercussions, ramifications for this sounds. And again, unless you're withholding something dramatic here from what I'm hearing here in my chats with Blair.

Yeah. It sounds pretty innocuous. Like it's, what you're saying you said should not offend a reasonable person, like I'm missing something, no, no, no, no. No one to miss something. And the only reason I'm being very, very careful is cause we're in a situation right now where it can, it can, it can ruin my family.

It can ruin the ability of us to work for something that I've worked for a long time. It can ruin my wife's ability to work. How do I do that? And I really, I'm not sure that the, yeah, it's hard because in effect, my instinct is to defend myself and tell you everything because I know the listeners would kind of know. But I think the listeners probably know if they're, if they're listening to your podcast, they're informed, they're interested.

They like the variation in your, in your, in your, you know, in your topics that, you know, you can read the newspaper and, which is, I love integration. I love cultural sharing. I love it when new forms of work emerge from different disciplines evolving. I celebrate that in my life and I celebrate that in my family. That's what I'm about. And that's not what the university environment that I was in is about. They are not

for that. They, you know, it's disappointing to hear this only because we live in this. We consider ourselves a cultural mosaic. I believe that's the term we would use. And you talked about what term did you use for your family? Poly-cultural? What was this term you used? Poly-ethnic, I think I said it was poly-cultural. So I'm from, my family too. You know, my wife is a woman of colour and my youngest two kids

are mixed race, I guess you'd say. And it's pretty commonplace, especially in big cities like Toronto. It's pretty much, it's commonplace. And I'm just, it's disappointing that those statements you would make would cause any conflict for you and would affect your livelihood in any way. Disappointing. I mean, couldn't I, I could ask you then, I mean, do you have,

do you have experiences, it could be that it's just that environment, you know, and not out here in the independent world. Do you have experiences in your family where you think, hmm, I wish that hadn't gone that way? Or where you experience with race? Yeah, with race. No, no, good. No, I'm glad. No, but again, I've known since different races are treated differently by the, the bigoted, uh, amongst us. Yeah. And, uh, my wife is a Filipino background and it may very well be different if it were a different background, but, uh, right. And I think there is variations there,

you know, perceptions of people and what they might consider doable or accepted within the culture. One argument I had with my wife before we were married actually was very common in her family to do things to whiten your skin because and I pointed out to my wife that the whole concept that whiter is somehow better even within a race is racist. It's abhorrent. Yeah.

It's just abhorrent. Yeah. It's just abhorrent. Yeah, absolutely. I agree. I mean, that's not uncommon in the South Asian community as well. Right. I mean, and, you know, yeah. And even I know, I know, I mean, because I read a lot and I follow a lot.

But yeah, even within the black community, there's, you know, different shades of black and it seems to be racism to initiate this whole this like to you and I can chat here all we want about how, how wrong and discussing and disappointing that is us to pasty white guys here. But what's more disappointing to me is this institution of higher learning, which I have not named yet, but you have named a few times, but this in my my and I may have a very dear loved one who attends this institution of higher learning. Possibly maybe allegedly, but it is disappointing that we're not encouraging the discussions you're having at those levels and in sort of not only denouncing

them or, but withdrawing some kind of funding that's affecting your livelihood here, like this is all very disappointing. Right. And I would say that, you know, I don't, I don't, I honestly don't think there's anything to be gained from me. Dragging them into it. It's the game. It's the same game and I don't want to play it.

I don't want to, I don't want to enter it from the same intent. Well, it sounds to me like you're, if you were like a lone wolf out there and you didn't, yeah, if you were, you may be have a different tone and be a little more, uh, deliver a little more real talk here, but you are not a lone wolf out there and you didn't. I'm not. Yeah if you were you may be have a different tone and be a little more deliver a little more real talk here but you are not a lone wolf. I'm not a lone wolf and it's it's not I mean there's there are invest I can say this there are investigations happening right now and and it's apparent the institution itself is not interested in looking at itself and so there are larger organizations. I have had to deal with the Ombudsman for Ontario, head of universities, etc.

Serious business. Yeah. And yeah. Okay. So glad you're sharing what you are sharing and I respect that you can't. I wish God it's because of the kind of person I am, I'm, I'm more inclined to just be absolutely, but I, I do think there's an aspect of this is to not,

to not enter in to the mudslinging. Um, it's just, it's a, my experience has been that it is not helpful. And it's just not helpful because there are, there are way better mudslingers than me. And they'll, you know, and at the moment. And then they have their microphone as well, and that's the way the world is, right?

Like that's the world we inhabit. I know for a fact there are FOTMs again, guests on this very program who were dear friends, artists who are not speaking right now because one might put something on social media about people in Gaza and maybe civilians being killed and that somebody who is this staunch supporter of Israel's right to defend themselves would be so offended by this, they would see it as anti-Semitic

and stop communication with this person. Like this is the world we live in today. Yeah, I've heard a phrase called the unread library. You know, there's these great leaps, sorry, great not good, large. There's the university guy in me, the PhD in me. We're in an age where people will say one thing and connect it with a meme or a system of information that doesn't necessarily compute. That statement you made, if you say,

I was thinking on my way up, what if Mike asked me about Zionism? And I thought, that's a word, that's one of those words that if you asked someone, are you a Zionist? They would immediately attach it to so many different ways of being and ways of thinking. But ultimately it would be, you know, on one side of the conversation, many of your friends would hug you and pat you and on the other side they might call call you a genocidal maniac.

It's really so crazy that a single word could mean such different things to so many people. And that's why we're in such a dangerous environment, I mean, is because the way people interpret these words. And I think there's been a lot of effort to recategorize words and give them meaning and the internet has a lot to do with that. And so it can be very difficult to have a discussion without defining those words first.

Yeah, you almost have to kind of set the ground rules for language first, like before we can even, you know, converse about this and some language is so loaded and politicized. And I have to say I hate it when people kill each other. And I'm very astonished at people's increasing interest in separating themselves through identity. I think it's a very harmful process. I think identity is something that we should attenuate as much as possible, if you see what I mean.

That the more we separate, the less we are able to communicate, the more violent we become. But that would be my main statement, is that I think that I'm troubled, I'm troubled by the focus of unidentity and perceived meaning. And I think people also have these envelopes of time in which they operate.

And often, like something like the Middle East, people are discussing it in terms of, well, this is 48 and this is 60. And really, the moment somebody does that, I think, well, you haven't read history because it didn't begin then. It began 2000, 3000, 4000 years ago. And these are the stories of all cultures. And this is going back to my research, which is every culture evolved from another culture, every single one. And virtually everyone on the planet walked or rode a horse or took a boat from somewhere to

somewhere. And the imaginary boundaries, I mean, sorry, and I say this loosely, of a country, didn't exist the way they did before. So you might call yourself, I don't know, let's use some Irish, you know, although that's a country that has had its boundaries for a long, long time being an island,

but let's fix something like Czechoslovakia, that's kind of landlocked. Though it wasn't called Czechoslovakia, and to claim that that is your identity is a really interesting thing. It's a very recent idea to be checklist vacuum or to be Canadian or to be really to name yourself in terms of any modern country boundaries. These, you know, German is, you know, it could been Bavaria before it not

so long ago. I'm not sure what the desire is to identify with these these commercial boundaries right these these boundaries of ownership I'm just like it I could go off on a tangent here but no it sounds like we're gonna need a an epic academic return here to dive deep less pig farm more of more of this I think I would I would love that because I could talk endlessly about and shout out to rob bowman if I just can because he's been over here and I got it I want to get him back as well maybe I get you two back together I don't know how friendly are of rob these days or if you're too too much for much as they say no well it's funny rob bowman and I so when I entered the institution rob bowman I had a meeting with him because I had

this long history in music already before I went to, I had never been to university when I started university at 49 years old. So because I had support of a few people, Rob Bowman being one of them, I was advanced beyond the BA stage. I was already a professional musician and that happens sometimes. Um, Sue Foley is another person, blues player who did that at the same institution, a few other people I know, and, uh, went straight into the MA program. So, but Rob and I never actually ended up working together.

I've worked on courses he developed. Um, and we see each other other around but Rob Bowman's close friend Matt VanderWood I became that's someone I'm really associated with and they work together a lot in fact I think Matt and I correct me if I'm wrong Rob if you're listening I think Matt still has your record collection so you can imagine how important that connection is. Wow have you seen the I'm sure you have but the the Stacks documentary series? I've read his initial PhD discourse on stacks. Cause Rob's all over this thing and it's a very,

it's a really well produced documentary and I quite enjoyed it. Then the newest one about that Toronto, uh, singer, um, cause I think that's been the latest focus for Rob, right? Um, Jackie chain. Yes. Jackie Shane.

Jackie Shane. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Jackie Shane, Jackie Shane. Yeah. Right. Yeah. A wonderful, yeah. Famous RMB and transgendered performer in Toronto. Yeah. No, great, great subject matter. And I thought as a pallet cleanser. So just before we do a little wrap up here and we play out here, just maybe a little post pig farm, Adam Fox, is that cool?

I'm going to play this. Oh yeah. Good. I mixed this in my little bachelor apartment once and most of the guitars. This is appropriate because the song I re I, it hadn't really been released and I put it out in response to what's going on. The song is How Do You Spend Your Love. Well you can hit the post because you know exactly where it is. Feel your fire, the mile away You got nothing left to give, that can make him stay Never get started, such a mountain, not such a mountain

You gotta stop counting the days The nets will rise by springtime's end And your conscience were be cleared by then You'll never get up such a mountain You gotta stop counting the days Because you've been left to fall And like a mortal, I that you did not have it all and how you spend your love it's got nothing to do with some great god above but how do you spend your love

Oh, nothing can swing. I can beat my feet. Diggin' it, Adam. Excellent. Well, amazing. Thanks for playing that. I'm glad that that's the way out of this thing, because really that song is about looking inside and making a decision about how you're going to move forward. It really is about joy.

Yeah. Well, I enjoyed this chat very much. Adam, I'm hoping I do see you at TMLX 16 tonight at 6pm. I can't wait. I can't wait. All right. We got food. We're going to have beer.

We'll have a good convo. You'll reconnect with former bandmate Blair Packham. Yeah. Well, no, I'm playing with Blair now actually, I'm doing all his solo stuff. So I'm now the bass player with Blair Packham. Not the jitters with Blair. But there is a jitters reunion. There is, I'm opening for that show.

Where is that show? Hughes Room, November 8th. Shout out to Jane Harbury. Okay. And where can people learn more see you on our way out here? Like if we want to see you live? Well, I'm mostly hitting out of town stuff, so smaller clubs and basements. But Hughes Room, you can get stuff.

You know, I'm all over the internet, Instagram and Facebook. And I'm sometimes known as Eddie Greer on Facebook. Oh, no, you fooled me. I got a message from Eddie Greer and I'm like, who is this guy? He says he's going to see me soon. That's a message from Eddie Greer and I'm like, who is this guy? He says he's gonna see me soon. That's a long- Is that an alias?

What's going on? It's an alias. It's my mother's family's. That's the Irish side of my family. My great aunt Melba was my substitute mother and she was born in 1911 and she passed away about 10 years ago. So I took her name when I needed an alter ego. I had been being harassed as Adam Fox a little bit and I thought, I'm just going to go.

Another way to shoot yourself in the foot as an artist basically. Yeah, change that branding every once in a while so nobody knows who the hell you are. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. Go for autonomy when you want to make a living. On your way here, was there a specific anecdote or story that you desperately wanted to share that we somehow overlooked?

Because this is the moment. Or did we hit all the... No, you know what? I'll just share this. Recently, I got my busking license. Oh. And I was a TTC. So you audition. And that has been one of the most

enriched and kind of uplifting experiences I've had in a long time. To just go out, play the guitar and busk for two hours or three hours. Great practice. Recently a young woman came by and folded up a little note. You have to imagine this, somebody hears you, I was at Queens Park station. They've heard you from maybe far off, down another part of the station, but she put a note that was coloured and had a little message in it thanking me for playing and she quoted Bob Marley, taped a couple of tunes to it, put it in my case, went over and I just, you know, the amount of effort it took she would have had to at

some point pause in the station take this piece of paper apart color it's an art work use whatever supplies she had and drop it in my case never to be heard from again possibly didn't didn't inquire want to speak just dropped it in there and I in I my you know my faith in humanity is constantly refreshed love that so much amazing and you're not the the first TTC busker to visit the basement because you know, my faith in humanity is constantly refreshed. Love that so much. Amazing. And you're not the first TTC busker to visit the basement because a founding member of Moby Grape,

Don Stevenson has been down here and Don does the exact same thing and he loves it. Yeah, it's amazing. And my, when I was, we didn't even get in the Las Dakotas but that was a busking band as well. That was our thing. Well, we got to save something for this. My goodness gracious. And that brings us to the end of our 1,568th show. Good night. You can follow me all over the place at Toronto Mike, go to

torontomike.com. Is there one place where you update on the, in the social media landscape? I guess the best place is Adam Fox, Luck Factory, Instagram. Yeah, always. I'll tag you there. I'll tag you there when I post this. Thank you. Much love to all who made this possible. Again, that's Great Lakes Brewery. We're at their brew pub at Jarvis and Queens Quay tonight. Palma Pasta will be there at Palma's Kitchen November 30th. RecycleMyElectronics.ca, Raymond James Canada,

Menaris, and Ridley Funeral Home. Sea Wall, I actually have to go to the calendar right now, Adam, I don't even know. November 30th? Well, that's November 30th, they have Palma's Kitchen at noon. You'll love it. Da da da da, Who's on next?

Shall I tell you? It is. Pausing for a bit. Oh, R&B singer, Sean Jones is visiting the basement. Sean Jones. So check that out. See you then.