Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - Alan Zweig: Toronto Mike'd Podcast Episode 1786

Episode Date: October 23, 2025

In this 1786th episode of Toronto Mike'd, Mike chats with Alan Zweig about his new film Dear, Harold, suicidal ideation, podcasting and more. Toronto Mike'd is proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, Palma Pasta, Ridley Funeral Home, Nick Ainis, Blue Sky Agency, Kindling and RecycleMyElectronics.ca. If you would like to support the show, we do have partner opportunities available. Please email Toronto Mike at [e-mail].

Hi, this is Alan Dwight. I'm on Toronto, Mike, again, for the two-and-a-half time. And he's wearing amazing red shoes. And I think that will totally brighten this appearance. Welcome to Episode 1,786 of Toronto Miked, Proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, a fiercely independent craft brewery who believes in supporting communities, good times, and brewing amazing beer.

Order online for free local home delivery in the GTA. Palma Pasta, enjoy the taste of fresh, homemade Italian pasta and entrees from Palma Pasta in Mississauga and Oakville. Blue Sky Agency, the official distributor of Cylans' quiet, comfortable, and customizable office pods. Create sanctuary within your workspace. Nick Aini's, he's the host of Building Toronto Skyline and Building Success, two podcasts, you ought to listen to. Kindling, go to shopkindling.ca for free one-hour cannabis delivery.

Recycle MyElectronics.ca. Committing to our planet's future means properly recycling our electronics of the past. And Ridley Funeral Home, pillars of the community since 1921. Today, making his return to Toronto Mike, it's Alan Zweig. Welcome back, Alan. Mike, is that a new mixing board? I don't remember it being so colorful and colorful and like compact.

2018, I got this sucker. So all your visits have been after that. Oh, okay. Also, I just want, you know, maybe listeners who's never been on your podcast would be surprised to find that Mike does that opening every time. that you would think that that would be recorded and you just punch it in but no every time you come

you have the pleasure of hearing Mike talk about originally like and he does it it's like I think that if you record it every one of them and laid them on top of each other they you wouldn't even hear an echo of anything he does it so perfectly the one variable there's two variables the one is the episode number unique every episode and of course the guest is unique, but I thought about like a canned intro, but I got to tell you the truth, Alan, I don't like that. Like, I don't like the idea of playing some canned intro and every episode is the exact same intro. I like it all being live.

I mean, you know, I have to say the whole thing, your whole thing is amazing. Really? It is, yeah. I mean, yeah, it's amazing. You book the guests. You do the thing. It's such a one, I don't know how many other podcasts. are in the world where it's completely a one-man show.

You know, even whatever, Mark Merritt sounds like a one-man show, but he's got a side kicker. Chase producers and, you know, like, anyway, whatever, the whole thing, yeah. Engineers. But it would be funny if you're like, this is episode 1786. Mr. Black. Anyway, whatever. I like the number 1786, too.

I wouldn't want a prime number to be my, I don't know, how many prime numbers are there at this 1789 a prime number anyway whatever 1786 good it's a good year I don't know what happened that year but I almost uh you almost ended up getting 1785 because I was originally ghosted by my guest for 1785 I was just listening to that one so can I ask you did you get the 17 minute version and then you got the 72 minute version oh I didn't know what I'm talking about no I did I was listening in the car now. I was wondering, who was the last guest? And I was listening to that.

And I didn't get that far. You got the, okay, but you heard a voice of John Castner. Oh, and I heard him talk. Yeah, I got as far as him talking about his wife who was on, you know, madmen. On a little show called Mad Men. Stunningly beautiful woman. You know what? I'll tell you, I had to show great restraint because I have this, like, natural tendency that I just want to ask questions about being married to Jessica Paray.

I believe that's how you say it. And I want to ask about, like, her on Mad Men. But then I don't want to, like, I do have John Castor on to talk about the dough boys and his kind of. Oh, Mike, you know what? I know you. And that must have killed you. But did you notice I pulled it off? I didn't hear it.

But I know that you, what's the, there's, I heard an expression. It's almost like the, they talk about it with the Israel carpet bombing, but it's like plow the field. And whatever it is, Mike, you definitely like to plow the field. You will leave no, I know it's an odd comparison to me, but I'm just saying, like, you will leave no stone unturned ever about anything. So yes, congratulations for not fanning out on even like, how did this rock star Montreal get to marry a world-class beauty like her, you know, like somebody had to, I guess, so that was him.

When you get to the end of the episode, there'll be a moment where John Castner tells me he attended Tom Green's wedding last week. So Tom Green and John Castner are buddies, and Castner was on the guest list, I guess with Jessica, and they're at this wedding. Then, of course, I try to parlay that into John getting Tom Green on the show.

But where I had to show some restraint, Alan, I think you can understand this, is I really wanted to get Tom Green, sure, but Jessica on the show. like so but then i said no let me just change something what i just said so i had the doughboys record yeah it was really great i don't blame jessica perrae for seeing the doughboys are hearing the record and marrying him it's not like she was marrying down right but anyway no no i didn't but then on some other level somebody that beautiful no matter who they marry they're marrying down

That's a good point. That's a good point. Unless John Hamm or something. Right. Right. That's the other John. Okay. So we're going to cover a lot of ground, but just right off the top, if people are listening

to Alan Zweig for the first time on Toronto Mike, we do have a rapport. This is different than your first visit, which was January 2023. So you're here in January, 2023. It was episode 1,195 in just the description. So you know why I know. I don't know if you know this, but in June of 20, 23, my driver's license was taken away from me. And I didn't have it for two years,

including when I came with my brother Michael, he had to drive me. And so I drove here today. So I know there was a big two-year gap in between the first one and the second one. And yeah, three years. Well, one-year gap, okay, because Michael drove you. Oh, because Michael, okay.

So January 2023, episode 11. 955, Alan's Weig dropped by to chat about his documentaries from vinyl to hurt to when Jews were funny and the many FOTMs. I think at that time you were telling me all the guests you've heard on Toronto Mike that you had a connection to. Well, it's because when I've, you know, I heard the name Toronto Mike for a long time. I had an odd, I don't know why I imagined who that person was. So when you looked like John Hamm. But it wasn't you. I was actually thinking, and for some reason, I thought Toronto Mike lived at Broadview and Queen.

Don't, I have no idea why. Then my friend Jim Shedden was on, and then I listened to the show, and then I saw, oh, I see what this guy is doing. He's got a map with 2 million potential pins in a drawer, and he is putting pins of every single, eventually he will talk to every person in Toronto. So I was just like, oh, okay, so I see how I fit in because I know 20 of your pins. And as I told you in January 20, 23, I'm a big fan of your work. And we're going to talk about your latest documentary in a moment. But I, like sincerely, big swighead over here. Yeah, that is really nice.

I never expect that. I know on some like sort of what's the word abstract level that those people exist but I don't yeah I don't ever expect you know people say whatever like what do you do you're a filmmaker have I seen anything that's like well if you're asking me that at this point probably no right so and obviously the vast vast vast vast vast majority of people even in Toronto, where I have my biggest audience, has no, they never heard of me and they've never seen any of my films. So it's their loss.

Yeah, whatever. But that, I appreciate that. I appreciate somebody, because I feel like when somebody likes my films, they have to, it's not like you love them or hate them, but they are a particular kind. And if you're one of those people that likes them, that's great. I'm glad you exist. I will even say this.

Long time ago, I was making films and never, nobody saw my films. So the idea that you made the films and thought about the audience, I didn't think about the audience. When you get an audience and you see that, and they say things that are really beautiful about how they were moved, then the audience starts to mean a lot to you. And my audience, you know, next to my, whatever, my daughter and my girlfriend, the audience is like, I wouldn't be here. Like, there means so much for me.

So thank you. I met your girlfriend at Jim Shedden's house. Jim Shet. Oh, yeah. Okay. Banyeta, my girlfriend's name. Yeah, you were there for that book launch. Book line.

I was in a very long line to get the great Jim Shetton, F-O-T-M-Shedden, to autograph a copy for me, and I saw Alan Zweig there. Right. Okay. Well, maybe someday. I have not met your kids, but you might meet my daughter someday. Okay. Well, we'll do a kid meeting arrangement. You know, you have actually met my oldest because we walked by you on Dundas and get a quick hello. Well, Qie is my oldest and my youngest and my everything. All right. Now. I'm allowed to say her name? Am I in trouble? Well, no, I don't think so. I was, who was doxying me the other day? Oh, Rashmedan, he was doxing me, so I think it's okay. You're safe here. So just to put a bow on the two visits,

the second visit was one year later with your brother Michael, whose work I heard in your latest documentary because he does music for all the Allen Swag documentaries, right? Okay, so can we put a bow on that visit? One of our mutual friends, I will not say their name because I don't want to make it seem like I'm annoyed with them. I'm not. One of them, very friendlyly, every time you and he mentioned my brother being on the show, this person will point out that I dominated that conversation. I talked more than my brother. And I have asked my brother about it, and he said, yeah, you did, but that's okay. I will say, yeah, maybe I just get excited around you, Mike, and even with my little brother here, I did ask you to put him on the show,

by himself, but you wanted us together. Anyway, I apologize to the audience that when my brother was here, I might have talked more than him, rather than simply presenting him. You know, I might have gotten carried away.

See, I don't think any apology is required because what I heard was a proud brother. Like, I heard a man who was proud of his brother, Michael Zee, as he was known, now Michael's wife, and you were kind of excited to present him. And I feel like of the two you, you are a bit more of a bit more of a, I don't know, chatty Kathy, is that a term you can

use? I don't know. But so I feel like you just sort of. That's probably the worst way you could put it, but I'll take it. But you would fill in some, I feel like there was some times where you were kind of, right. I was encouraging him to talk more about himself and maybe in that thing, I got carried away in. But I never had a moment following that episode where I thought, oh, you know, Alan stole some spotlight from Michael. I never thought that for a second. I thought you were just a Somebody did think that. I could guess. I don't know if you want me to guess.

You don't want to guess. But when we get to the part where Michael is playing next month in the Jitter's reunion, I knew it. We might graze by a reference. Okay, shout out to David Quentin Steinberg. Yeah, but that, but anyway, to that person, if they listen to this, I, I, it's okay with me that you make fun of my dominance of my brother. And he's a, you know, he's a, you know, he's always.

every quarter now he's a co-host of a quarter now now you're giving too many quays well listen you know because you have listened to a handful of Toronto mic'd episodes more than a handful do you still listen I still listen you know because the notes of stop coming no okay the notes have stopped coming if you want to get into it because I have recommended some people for you to be on the show and I take credit for Chas Lather being on your show, et cetera. But, you know, a number of times I've recommended people, and you're like, well, I'm going to vet them now.

And it's like, okay, you know, I think I pre-vetted them. That's why I'm recommending them. And you stopped taking my recommendations, which it's fine. It's your show. I don't believe I've stopped taking your recommendation. But anyway, so I just was like, oh, oh, and did I stop? Yeah. Well, there's no point to me.

If I ever did go, Mike, that show, I didn't like that question. If I ever did do anything like that, I apologize because that's stupid. But I still do listen. I just don't listen to the episodes about certain subjects that you're obsessed with and that I'm not obsessed with. What are those? I mean, Paken once told me he loves Toronto Mike unless we're talking about like CF and Y bands. Like he wants nothing to do of like All Rock, for example. No, I don't care about anybody who was ever on the radio.

Although, again, you know, I mean, humble and Fred, whatever, that's okay. I know who they are, but all these people that you're, you know, anybody that was on CFTR or something like that, that's just not going to land with me. Unless I hear they're fascinating. Right. And then maybe I, you know, maybe I'm missing some fascinating conversations. But you must have been a big chumbug like listening to 1050 back in the day. I know, but Mike. I don't know.

I don't know, yeah, I don't know. It's, I get starstruck, but, you know, not by those people, you know, I don't know. Dave, Mickey, yeah, I listened to that episode. That was, that's different, but I'm just saying, I'm not going to listen to, you know, I don't know. Well, the only reason I brought up that, well, two reasons. One is that you'll know I never do trigger warnings. like every once in a while I get a note from the listener who's like oh you should have done a trigger warning there was talk of this and that and I'm like oh I don't even think about doing that like it just doesn't know I feel people are here yes I'd never thought about trigger warnings too until I started to make this film and then people started telling me about trigger warnings and in fact I don't want to get into the whole story but I had a title at one point that I really loved and then somebody suggested to me and I'm not going to tell you the title I'm just saying I'm going to beg for it I'm yeah I'm I'm just going to tell you.

I loved the title. It was very poetic. It came from one of the interviews, and somebody told me, you know, you've made a film dealing with suicide. You don't need to, you know, put yourself in a hole from the beginning

with a title that people might tell you is a trigger. I asked a friend of mine who's a therapist, They were like, yes, I could imagine. And it's like, no, you know what? I don't want anything about this film to scare anybody or I want people to, you know, walk in. And, okay, might be sad, but I want to. So I just didn't want to put myself in a hole.

And I guess I thought about, I didn't think I was doing anything in a film that would be triggered. But we did submit it to an expert, and he told us, I can't remember, he told us, basically he just wanted a way bigger warning at the beginning of the film. But anyway. Well, I guess I'm going to do a little trigger warning right now, which is just if the listenership, because we're going to talk about suicide here, if the listenership, anyone in the listenership is having any thoughts of suicide or self-harm, I'm here to remind you that you can call. nine eight eight right now like just grab your phone and call nine eight eight and you can talk to somebody and there will be this if you if you're triggered by talk of suicide maybe skip this episode and come back for uh rush me neer who's going to be here on monday i just have to say

i listen to this one podcast where which is really good but the guy he does a trigger warning on every single i guess the uh the 500 songs yeah i listen to and uh and it's like he's triggering like if you don't like hearing somebody open a beer don't you know like he's talking about dog once he's talking about rock and roll and he's saying there's going to be references to drug use and sex and and like yeah why anyway in fact i'll just tell you the story i have this friend john colapinto he's a writer a new yorker writer who lives in New York. I recommended him the show. And then on Twitter, we were talking about the show. And he said, yeah, but I could have done without the trigger warnings. On comes the host saying,

fuck you, I'd rather do the trigger warnings and then he blocked us. Wow. And it's like I had been recommending his show. Right. Anyway, the point is, all I was going to mention is, he says, if you might be triggered by this read the transcripts instead and it's like well how is that I'm going to be triggered by this but reading the transcripts will be less triggering than hearing me talk about anyway it's interesting you brought that that I would say that might be my favorite podcast like I just really that's one of the few podcasts I listen to or I'm like oh I wish I could do that because of his research but I do think he's a bit over excited about trigger warnings to a point where it sort of devalues the whole thing.

Like, this is my first ever trigger warning, because we're going to talk about suicide. The thing I love about that show is, I am kind of known maybe on Facebook, by somebody who thinks that most music docs, filmmaking-wise, are horrible. And this guy is just doing one, he's killing.

There's no reason to watch a music doc. Just listen to his show. So, anyway. So we're in the agreements. See, I just appreciate the granular detail. Like, and the things I learn from that podcast, it's better than... Although sometimes he does go back. It reminds me of my late father-in-law, I was like, starts to tell a story.

And then digresses so far that one time he digressed so far. And then at a certain point, he said, said something and I was like oh fuck I hear him coming back that was the first time I ever heard him turn the corner and come back to where he started anyway that's a whole other subject okay so again we're going to talk about suicide because your latest film I oh you know what I'm calling an audible on the line of scrimmage I tend to do that I'm going to play the trailer and then I will say a teaser here that I actually watched this documentary so well I feel like you're going to have chats of podcasters, and I'm sure you're on the circuit right now.

I'm not on any circuit. But, okay, but you probably are going to do some promotion for this, and you'll be surprised how many people chatting with you did not watch the document. Oh, yeah, that's normal. Okay, so let's listen to this. It's a different kind of death. It's not like an accident. or an illness

it's traumatic and it's complicated do you remember what your reaction was when you first heard the news I was just like what happened and I wanted answers and oh my God

it was my fault you know it was because of me I was just really angry I thought if the Grief was going to be like that forever that I wouldn't be able to manage it. You have to reach out to people and let them, let them help you. A lot of people's question was like, how do you do it? And my question was always like, why? I wear socks.

You keep them close to your feet. It's hard. as it is to talk about, ask me about it. Does it change how you love him? He left a note. It said, please forget me. I can't bear the consequences of what I've done. Harold.

Alan, why did you make you make... Love Harold. Well, you know, the idea, no, okay. I had a close friend Jim. I hadn't seen him for 20 years. He killed himself in Cambodia in 2019. I didn't think, oh, I should make a film about suicide. Then I went to, then my friend, my friend, my girlfriend,

Bognita had a friend Martha Bailey. who's in the film, and she wrote a book with her sister, Christina, called Sister Language. It came out in August, and then before the book launch, in September, she, and Christina killed herself. Then a guy, a lovely, lovely man named Casey McGlynn, contacted me and told me that, you know, I should do something about Catherine Mowern, some people in Toronto will know her name.

And then I was on a plane going to Vancouver, and my friend Jin, who was also in the film, said, phone me and said, do you remember that guy? So she had a friend who was kind of a curmudgeon, and she thought he and I would get along, and she always wanted us to meet each other. And if you see the film, you'll see that this guy wrote a book that's obvious only a curmudgeon would write. Anyway, she said, remember that guy, yeah? She said, I'm going to his funeral today. would you like to go with me?

So that's for people. Now, again, it's not like, oh, I should make a film about it. It's just that, you know, often the answer to your question is, well, I pitched a film about puppy dog tails and balloons, and they said no. And then I said, what about suicide? Oh, yeah, that one. You know, I always have the same thing, which is I pitched to CBC

a film about Stomp and Tom Connors, right? We would be having a different conversation. but for some reason probably me they didn't think I could do it or whatever so that's part of the reason is I pitched it they said yes but also I have to admit that suicide has always been something I noticed now the thing is I don't know that other people aren't noticing it I'm just telling you like there's a lovely little movie about Spalding Gray and it the story of his suicide is in there. I think about that story all the time. Spalding Gray lived on Staten Island with his family. He took the ferry to Staten Island. He stayed on the ferry. It went

back to New York. He stayed on the ferry. And somewhere on that third one, he disappeared. Like that story and Spalding, and also I really, really relate to Spalding Gray so much. And there's, anyway, like, so I don't know, I guess I just thought someday I was and also whatever I've written scripts where suicide was a narrative device so yeah

you know having said that I didn't know how to make a film about suicide but I didn't know how to talk to the survivors that was in my wheelhouse and so I thought that's what I'll do

and to some degree you know I can't be chewed about it to some degree that does make the film about suicide but I'd like to say on some level that it's not only about suicide

it's more about how people deal with something that devastating I watched it I found it to be beautiful like a beautiful

piece. Like these were, I don't know how many people you talked to, like 20 people maybe. 23, actually. Yeah, 23. And they're sharing their thoughts

about the person that they knew and loved who took their own life. And it's not, I didn't find it like depressing or dark. I found it on some level rather beautiful.

I think your gift is extracting, maybe this is, maybe I'm just trying to be Allen's Y. First of why, I have to say, when you say that you found it beautiful, I am so happy to hear that.

The thing is, I'm going to tell you something, which I've said many times, and I'm almost embarrassed to say it tomorrow when I introduced a film at rendezvous with Madness. I'm going to say it again. But at a certain, I felt something different. I've talked to people, and I've heard traumatic stories, and they're in my film, coppers, in my film a hard name.

I felt something different. different. I didn't know how to identify it. At one point, I was in Seattle, and this woman was telling her story, and I kind of thought like, it was like a moment in a movie when there would be an effect that the room filled with white light, and it was just so beautiful. I looked up this word, actually. I looked up the word, what does grace mean? And it's like, that's what I felt. I felt grace and honored to be there. And I thought, well, now we're going in the editing room with my editor, Caroline Christie,

and we're going to make the lightest, gentlest version of this sad film, but not so light that we don't include. there definitely are some brutal little moments. But, and I would say another thing. And again, I'm really, you know, Mike, I know you're an honest person, but I also think, you know, if you interview somebody about their film,

you should blow a little smoke. You should make them feel like you liked it. But I'm believing you because you said beautiful and I'd like to think that that's true. So here's the thing. I never asked anybody why they think they did it. I never asked anybody how they did it. Some people, in dealing with it, will tell you that.

Some people won't. And I never, that's the only rule I had. And maybe I don't have any tricks, right? But I do know that sometimes you can do things as an interviewer to, I don't know, like push people away from being. I don't need to tell you this. I know you know whatever. I'm making, I just watched my rough cut of my film about Art Bergman

and always ringing in my ear as I'm watching. That is the fact that Art, after I interviewed him, told you that you did the best interview of him ever. But he might say that to everyone. No, he doesn't. He definitely wouldn't say that. Anyway, so, anyway, I think that basically, because basically what you have to do is get out of their way, they will talk. But so I think it wasn't a technique to not ask them how they did it.

But I think it probably helped to just be like, tell me how you're doing. Tell me how you're dealing with this. Tell me what this is like for you. That's all I did. I feel like it's possible how you perceive this film, which, and I can tell you, there is a not-so-secret WhatsApp group with FOTMs, and when I watched this doc,

I went in there and said, I just watched Alan's Wyke's new film, and it's, I can't remember my exact, the exact words I use, but I definitely said something to the effect of, it is absolutely beautiful or something to that affect. So there are probably witnesses.

You can ask Mark Wiseblood, what my review was after the fact. And did any of them say, how does a prick like that? How does a guy who, who, you know, whatever, we don't need to go into it, how does that guy get good interviews or beautiful film? Nobody said that. Nobody said that.

But I think where I was going there is I think your thoughts on suicide as you enter this film, I think might paint the way you perceive the film. For example, I've had on this show, this very show, Toronto Mike, I've had people on who openly wept and spoke about their child's suicide. Right. Okay. And then I've had conversations with people who knew that person and stuff where they were pissed off. They were angry.

They were spitting bullets at the young person who took their own life because of how selfish that was and the people, like, how hurt the people were that this young person took their own life. And I think there's a set of people out there. I speak of the stigma with suicide. I've never had judgment for somebody who takes their own life. I've never felt for a moment like they were being selfish or an asshole. Like, how dare you do this to your mother or to your wife or whatnot? I've never felt that because I can't even pretend to put myself in the mindset of somebody who would take that extreme measure.

Like, I believe many a person who took their own life was likely at the conclusion where the people I love are better off without me here. Definitely. Right. But that terror takes away. That means it's selfish. like to me it's like no you don't have this mindset like oh i'm going to really fuck over my mom by by making her attend my funeral because i'm going to take my life right now so i think if you come

into this film that you made and you have this stigma around suicide some kind of judgment around people who take their own life i think i don't know if you'd get out of it what i got that beauty where i came in and this is simply their cause of death and these are loved ones talking about somebody they cared about who is no longer here and i found that authenticity to be rather beautiful so i have no idea right if you if you are a person that always gets mad at people who kill themselves how you would perceive my film i actually have no idea i think that wouldn't be my choice of a viewer that would not be my target audience um yeah that's it's interesting the thing that um um is interesting to me about it the thing that i learned

is. So you know that there's a taboo around suicide. And you know that occasionally you're reading an obituary and it seems like it's kind of, you know, died suddenly or something. But it's quite another thing to have somebody tell you that like one of the guys, Graham, it's like, how did your father die he he's like is it even worth it for me to tell you and and what this reminds me of in a weird way is people would ask me what my film is about and I know that if I say suicide they're going to one person the other day said oh that's I'd like to see that that's a good subject but generally people back up and then but here's the odd thing about that i don't want to exaggerate so i would say 50 percent but i'll go down to 30 percent 30 percent it gets really quiet 30 seconds

later they say my uncle killing himself right they they it's it's it's a taboo subject to them even though they lived through it. And, you know, I don't know. I don't think that my film is going to kill the taboo. I think one thing it will do because I've been told this, and this is odd. This is an odd thing because I definitely didn't think about this, and this was not my intention.

But I've been told by people who have suffered this themselves, that is comforting for them to hear other people talk about it. I think that it is an interesting thing, and I don't know what you would say about this, but there are taboo subjects, right? And people who are in the middle of these taboo subjects, I don't know what they are, these other taboo subjects, but, you know, if you feel like you can't talk about something,

that is not going to be healthy for you or healing. Like, I hear what you say about maybe this film won't, you know, destroy that taboo or whatnot, but it definitely helps to break the stigma around suicide. I think we absolutely need to normalize talking about this the way, oh, my father died of a heart attack, okay? Oh, my father took his own life, like this whole idea that it's just easier to say he died of a heart attack

because then you get the questions and the judgments, and there are people who attach us. stigma to suicide absolutely i mean i yeah see i think that if you're you know if your husband kills himself you are going to be devastated no matter what even if the whole world even if we got rid of the stigma but on the other hand i think i don't know i just sort of feel like if there would be a way of going well that was his choice like that's you know it's like you know I asked somebody like can't you just the most important thing is that they're dead

what do you care how they died but I understand I understand I that's a very naive question it was kind of like a hopeful question that they would go oh yeah you're right it doesn't matter you know and here's the thing that I am not going to make a film about made but there's a lot of things going on around made and I know a person who's very involved inmate. I know even I have some friends from a hard name days

who work in prison and they're talking about prisoners are starting to push for like, hey, I'm going to die here. Why don't we just move this along? So I've seen two films where everybody knew the guy was about to drink to drink. They're at a party. He says goodbye.

drinks and he dies even on camera and no you know nobody's like fucked up about that right now i'm not saying i don't know that you know i don't know that that could ever happen but you know when i went to cambodia and saw where my friend jim killed himself and saw that thought had been put into it and that he picked such a lovely spot then it was like okay like a lot of it got better for me i had a bit of closure because i'm like okay this is what you want this is what you wanted you know there's a quote i pulled from your documentary love harold and uh it was regarding jim and you referred to jim as the toughest person you knew yeah so you know what i am going to i don't want to i don't want to i don't want to i don't want

to name drop this, what I'm going to tell you. But a year before, a year or a little more, a year and a half before Jim died, I went to a funeral of another friend who killed herself. And at the funeral were lots of people that knew her. And there was a rabbi, he knew her. and he was conducting the ceremony and Katie let's call her Katie he said a lot of us here knew Katie obviously we didn't know her as well as we thought that was ringing in my ear when a year and a half later when Jim killed himself and then I went to awake I made awake at the Clintons because he used to play there

and I heard other people talking about them and on some level I was thinking are we talking about the same person you know and that is that is that purely even outside the realm of suicide see the thing about one of the thing that's just

narratively interesting about suicide is on some level you know your friends by the choices they make while you weren't ready for that choice And now you have to wonder about everything you thought about them. Anyway, I don't know. Well, no, I remember that part in the documentary.

And I was thinking, even just from doing this show or somebody I've never met before, but I'll know their work. Obviously, I invited them over. And then they'll be at the door. And then we'll spend 90 minutes together. But people show you what they want you to see. Like a lot of people are very good at this. For Alan's Wig, this is the Toronto mic I present to him.

And that's why you can have that dynamic where people are like, are we talking about the same person? my person never didn't seem to have any problem with drinking or alcohol or drugs or anything of that nature but yeah you see the person you want them to see and and yeah anyway i mean uh uh yeah so jim i thought he was tough you know jim did some things that you would have to be tough to do but then on the other hand jim did some things that he had to be tough and really fucked up to do that you he made some choices that were that you know i just looked at like fuck i would never do that i'd be scared but on another level i never thought about okay what is missing in your life that you were

doing that you know and and so at by the end of the film when i've talked to a few people and then i talked to this woman lynn who's kind of a star of the film and i tell her about some shit that jim does did and she says he was in pain now and it's like yeah never like it just you know it's the odd thing about that is i don't think i would ever say i'm a good judge of character so i'm sort of safe on that grounds like but now it turns out i'm not a good judge of character I'm definitely not. I make a quick impression, you know, it helps me sometimes, I don't know, but yeah, Jim, Jim hid a lot of himself from me. Yeah, you had me at recording at Queen in Broadview, is that right?

No, so it's a quick, quick judgments there. Okay, there is a person, you mentioned 23 people are in this documentary, but there is a person who's being in this basement. Like, I was surprised just to see him there. You know who I'm talking about? Casey? No. Tony Napo.

Oh, Tony, yeah. So, shout out to Stu Stone. Yeah, so, yeah, somebody told me about an actress who killed herself. And I asked a few people, and Tony knew her. And so, yeah, yeah, Tony and Tony, Tony's in the documentary for a minute, but it's, it's some good dialogue. You know, he nails what he says. So that begs the question. How did you select these 23 people?

Like, are they all people you knew? Are they all Torontoians? No. All, there's two, three people in the film, no, four. four people in the film who aren't from Toronto there's one person in the film who isn't either a friend or a friend of a friend

so and the reason that is the way it is is that researchers have their way of finding people and our researcher very very experienced researcher, nonetheless, couldn't find anybody in their way to, they could find a few

people, but then they'd get this thing like, yes, it's true, my son killed himself, but if I'm in your film, my brother will find out that my son killed himself, and we didn't tell him that. so yes the taboo definitely played big time in finding people and therefore i had to sort of resort to like asking people do you know like do you know anybody did you have a friend and and some lovely some beautiful connections were made that way and some coincidences but yeah so not everybody in the film is my friend but everybody in the film is my friend but everybody in the film but one is a friend of a friend. The one person we found

was only because that person is also making a film about their brother. And so somehow we heard that through the grapevine that this person was making this film and we asked them to be in our film. Okay, I hope this isn't a convoluted question. It's in my head shaping right now. But what did you, Alan, think about people

who made the choice to take their own life, like before you made this doc and did your thoughts about people who do that change at all having had these 23 plus conversations? Okay, so yeah, that's a good question. So the thing is, it's, I always end,

you know, we always end up in this position where, you know, I made a film about brain surgery, but I'm not a brain surgeon, so don't ask me a brain surgeon question. So I'm not an expert in this. What I will say is that Jamal, who's in the film, who's, you know, you should have Jamal on this show.

He runs a bunch of bars in Toronto. He's a very colorful character that a lot of people know. He's also in Pavan Mundy's new film, which I saw in Calgary. Anyway, Jamal says about his friend Ian, Ian didn't want to do the circuit again and I knew what he meant he was like he broke up with his girlfriend he's going to be sad for a while

then he'll mean another woman then that'll happen then that'll go down and he'll lose you know it's like he's tried he doesn't want to do that again so I think that there's four or five people in the film

who are young men in their 40s who that would be the explanation in my friend Jim who killed himself he found his place in life he thought that went away and he made a you know what you know it all depends whether you think suicide is an inherent irrational decision but if you if you let in the possibility that it isn't then yes sometimes and you know obviously that person doesn't think what they're doing is as extreme as we're going to think now i have to take a step back somebody who watches the film will say a bunch of five of those people had mental health issues they were bipolar there was suicidal ideation and yes nonetheless uh the person in the film whose daughter dies that way thinks she would be the

exception because they don't all you know they don't all not all like martha's sister christina had made it to her 60s fighting off right maybe they can You know, so anyway, I'm just saying bipolar, mental health issues are definitely part of the story. If you have those mental health issues and you're on certain drugs, et cetera, et cetera, those voices are stronger. But I think there are some people in the film who just were like, does not working out. And I relate to that, you know. I had my own, I don't believe I had suicidal ideas. but I certainly had the thought that this isn't working out

and that's one choice and my thing was I didn't have a family but my mother was alive and I was like I can't kill myself before my mother dies and then by the time my mother died I was in a better place now again I'm not saying I ever seriously considerate it but I thought about it you know again there's some people I don't believe this is true, but I've heard this thing like, if you've never thought about suicide, I don't want to know you, kind of like everybody, everybody should have thought about

it, but maybe I'm wrong. No, I mean, I've never had a moment where I thought, oh, I think I should kill myself or anything of that nature, but without a doubt, I think similar to you, where I've always been kind of aware of this, and I've definitely had thoughts about how that could be, I don't say an easy exit. I don't minimize it in any way, but that this is an option that exists for some people. Yeah. See, now we're in the, we are definitely in the area where somebody is going to say we're triggering people. Well, I did the trigger warning. So anyway, all I'm saying is I knew some people that killed themselves before this. And the people in my film are not telling me

you know, at length about the people in the, like, I'm not hearing a lot about those suicides, but it does, it does seem to me that some people, you know, it's like even, I ask people on my other podcast like, do you think of life as precious, a precious gift that can't be wasted? And I always expect them to say yes, and they all say no. none of them so that's the thing i think we just think of you know uh oh i yesterday one of the guys who interviewed me told me this story yeah he said um he was in his 20s and his girlfriend left him and he was really sad and this sport this writer there this tough old guy you're not going to do anything stupid are you he said to him and then this what he did he took him for a car ride and he drove at like

a hundred miles an hour, scaring the shit out of them to like, I don't want to die, I don't want to die. And he's like, yeah, okay, so don't. Scared straight. Okay, I think what I love about Love Harold is the fact that we're now having this conversation. Like, I just am a, I think this is an uncomfortable subject matter for a lot of people. I did do the trigger warning off the top.

No one's being blindsided by this conversation. And how about on the live feet are they saying, sorry, no, this one. I haven't clicked over in a while, but let me go over there. Basement dweller. I hope basement dweller. He's actually not there right now. He's got to get a good Wi-Fi, but I know he'll be listening without a doubt. But the fact, I think that's part of breaking the stigma around suicide is that we can have these conversations. And I think your film encourages conversations, like speaking about this.

I just think that's good for all of us. Definitely. I think it's good for us. And it got me onto 1786. Who knows when I would have made it back. Well, anytime you want to come on, you're invited here. You know that here. And I will say the music's beautiful in the documentary.

So kudos to your brother. Thank you. Yeah, it was difficult finding the right tone. Sure. You don't want it happy. You don't want it sad. You want something neutral. Nobody really wants to write neutral music.

But, you know, so we found a way to make neutral music. But that was beautiful and I think it worked. Yeah. Thank you. And one thought, and this is difficult because this is about suicide. But if we were to take the cause of death out of the equation, I think I just enjoy. hearing people be authentic, remembering people they loved and cared about who are no longer

with us? Yeah, I mean, it's, yeah, enjoyable might be a strong word, but I think, whatever, I think we hunger for real emotion. Yes. And in everything. And there are so many places we don't get it. Again, I'm going to tell you something which, which, again, I'm not going to be specific,

but a friend of mine has been working on a show for the last year, and it's been driving him crazy because he's had a lot of people peering over his shoulder. And he told me at one point, these people, this broadcaster, who is controlling this, all they care about is format. They don't care. anything about content if you fit their format you could be going blah blah blah blah

fucking blah as long as you're hitting certain things so yeah we are and even in the podcast universe mike there's a lot of chirpy people no matter what they're talking about still they're coming on like susy homemaker like so so yes i mean uh i believe all my films on some level are certainly absent of that generic chirpiness and yeah just you know that that doesn't make them really successful right that has not helped my career but but you know i guess I say, when somebody tells me they like one of my films, I know, okay, you're one of those people who is willing to trade gloss for, you know, a genuine emotion.

And I think that's why I'm drawn to your work because I do have, you described it nicely, but I crave authenticity. There's so much phony baloney out there and schick, and I hate it. Yeah. I mean, you know, like, I scroll. Sometimes I catch myself, like, kind of like I'm scrolling and scrolling and scrolling. And it's like, why can't you stop? Because I need something good. Like, I'll end when I get a good thing. But I'm scrolling so much. And every once in a while, yeah, you do get something kind of cool. but yeah, I mean, I don't know what. Like, oh, I can't, you know, whatever. You and me were patting ourselves on the back because we're so fucking authentic. No, I'm patting you.

You're patting me. But, okay, where it's a circle pat. But it works for me. Anyway, yeah, I'm glad that there are some people who like things that are authentic. I understand people who like things that are inauthentic, too. But, you know, sometimes you know, sometimes you know. need a rest and you need to just sit there and watch something inauthentic. I'm more of a substance over style guy myself.

You remarked on the red shoes and I just want to quickly share the story and then we'll wrap up our Love Herald and then I'm going to shout out some partners and then I do want to talk to you a little bit about podcasting if that's cool with you. I think my podcasting partners would be mad at me if we didn't talk about. Well, I'm definitely going to give it a good segment here. Okay. The red shoes I'm wearing, I do not, but. believe I'm cool enough to wear red shoes.

But two days ago, Donovan Bailey, a friend and client, just showed up, knocked on the door. I wasn't expecting him. And he gave me two pairs of shoes because he's doing work with this company called Biopods. Okay. And I accepted this gift and I'm wearing the red shoes right now and I'm having trouble. I don't think I'm a red shoe guy. Do the angels want to wear your red shoes? Is that a, should I know that reference?

It's an Elvis Costello song. Okay, so, yeah. And the angels want to wear my red shoes. So I am wearing these red shoes. And I'm going to, actually, shout out to Bob Willett, my co-hosts for Toast episodes, Rob Pruse, and Bob Willett. I'm going to be going to see Danny Graves from the Watchman tonight at the Phoenix. And I think I'm going to wear my red shoes, just to... I think you should wear them, definitely.

I think you just, with the red shoes, you have to worry about what colored pants you wear. I only have, like, a, geez, I think I think to throw on my shorts. how's that? I don't know. We'll figure this out. I have no, as you might know, I have no style. Okay, this is not going to be a mind below. I have my own style, which is your hair. Oh, yes, but that's nature. Your hair is a style. That's a style. There's nothing in it, though. Like, this is, this is natural. So I feel like I lucked into some good hair is what I think happened here. So, okay. How can people see Love Harold? We just spent an hour talking about your, your, your latest documentary. Okay. Well, I mean, if people, I mean, unfortunately, it's playing tomorrow when, the Blue Jays are playing, but tomorrow at 615 at Cam H, part of the Rendezvous with Madness Festival. Well, someday, someday it will play in Toronto at some theater like the Bloor to Paradise or a Royal, maybe in November.

It will have what they call a theatrical release across Canada in November, or maybe in November, or maybe in January. And then after that, it will be streaming forever on the National Film Board streaming service. And again, I'm glad to mention that the National Film Board were, is my first National Film Board film, and it's been quite an interesting experience. They've been very a nice bunch of gals.

Yeah, that's what I would say. like I've met a lot of them very they're very good at their job they keep in touch with me they make me feel good about myself when I feel bad and they're pushing the film that's a good partner yeah okay national film board a shadow to the NFB why was this documentary not aired at tiff you know Mike if you're a Toronto that's a funny question um you know it it is It's like my film had its world premiere in Calgary. So did a friend of mine. We know that the reason our world premiere is at Calgary is because we didn't get into TIF.

In my case, I didn't get into TIF or Hot Talks. That's just how the cookie crumbles. I had incredible luck. My first 10 films premiered at Tiff or Hot Talks. You get to the point that you just assume that it'll happen. But on the other hand, maybe I was really lucky all that. that time. And now I'm just, you know, for a couple of films, I'm just, you know, back in the pile with the vast majority of people who don't get their films into TIFR, you know,

whatever, they get 200 submissions and they do four documentaries. And now, I will say, of all, in all these rejections, I did hear from somebody who simply really didn't like the film. and they described what they were hoping. And when they described what they're hoping, you're kind of like, I mean, this is a pet peeve of mine and I have nothing to do with Tiff or Hot Dogs, but I just think when it comes to documentaries,

much more than fiction films, when people hear this subject, they assume what it'll be, almost like it's journalism or an episode on 60 minutes or something or an education. film. Oh. And so I don't think when you hear, you know, it's a new Western from this guy, you're like, okay, like, and then if the first guy comes on and he's got a mustache, you know, I didn't think they'd have a mustache, or I didn't think it would be this funny, or I didn't

think you'd kill this many people. But when it comes to docs, people almost like they already see the film. And this fellow really wanted me to dig down and talk about the people, you people, why they did it, how they did it. And it's like, okay, that's a, you know, that would be a choice, but it's not a choice I made. That's a different movie. Other than that, though, yeah, I, it would, I've had very good luck with those big festivals. And, you know, the thing is, I have to say, and I would say this to other filmmakers

who have suffered those rejections, we didn't make the film for Hot Talks or Tiff. we made it to get into the world and however it gets into the world it doesn't matter what's important you know i made a film called hurt that film won this big prize that may be the best film i ever made after i won that big prize people were like all years saying to me wow you must have been all over the world with that film no that film played at tiff and vif and then it was on super channel which not a lot of people have and that's it so i think love harold will live in the world even if it didn't have the big hoopla thing and also rendezvous with madness is a great place for it and they're they're a lovely festival and people should go to all their screenings and it's in playing on windsor in

Windsor on Tuesday if if you have listeners in Windsor but you know it'll it'll stream and maybe someday it'll be on TV I don't know all right keep keep your eyes appealed yes can I tell you one more thing of course vinyl is coming out on Blu-ray this month I'd say that's the doc people think of first when they think of it's my first film and maybe in a weird way it's my best although technically as from a film craft point of view it's not my best but but but But it's people's favorite, and I'm really, I think it's this film that I made on a cheap hi-8 camera is coming out on Blu-ray. Anyway. That's exciting.

Yeah, I am excited. No, that's very exciting here. All right. We're going to take a moment here. I was going to, maybe I'll share this quick, quick Mike story, which is that at Ridley Funeral Home, the owner and the funeral director there is a guy named Brad Jones. And he's got a podcast called Life's Undertaking. Hello to Brad. Brad's father-in-law passed away

and Brad asked me if I would set up my studio at Ridley Funeral Home and just chat with family and friends about Joe who had just passed away. He had a long life. And so I set up there and people would come on. It would be grandchildren.

It would be daughters. It would be friends. Somebody you taught to ski when he was 12 years old. And I got to say, one of my favorite recording experiences ever was just chatting with people about this guy, Joe, that they loved and is no longer with us.

And I think that that's why I think I was going this way about 25 minutes ago when I said, if you take the cause of death out of the equation, I do enjoy like authentic conversations from people who are remembering somebody who they'll never see again. So I did not put this in people's mouths. So, you know, but many people who've seen my film said,

it's about love. Yeah. And, and, and I, you know, I think that's maybe a little bit of a, you know, sort of a cool thing to say, but not. I don't think it's completely accurate, but I think it's as much about love as it is about suicide. I would not argue at all. I wouldn't argue at all. By way, in Calgary, when you had your debut, did you see Biff naked there? I didn't, I got there the next day.

I was aware she, her doc, opened the festival, I believe. Yeah, so the Biff Naked Doc had its world premiere in Calgary at that same. Have you ever talked to Pavan Mundy? You said the name earlier and I was trying to place it. Could you help me out? I don't. Well, he lives in L.A. now. Oh, have you ever had the guys from the husband and wife, Peter and Leah, from July talk?

You know what? I met them at Humble and Fred early in that podcast. I met them. and I've not had them on, but I would totally do that. They were the stars of Paven's film. Okay. Peter has been in other films. Yes. He's obviously, you know, I think both of them could have a career as actors,

but they also have this band, July talk, and maybe they should be on your show. They're in Paven's movie, the new one. It's called Middle Age, Middle Life, something like that. It's a very cool little kind of, maybe if you're, sort of, I don't know if Pavan would like being compared to Duplas brothers or Mumblecorp, but anyway. Okay. I would do that.

And of course, Leah, that's her name, Leah Faye. Yeah. Her father, of course, is written for the Toronto son forever. Oh, yeah. Have you ever had him on? No, but I would do that too. So there's lots of time. Or maybe you're going to have him.

Is he alive? He's around, yeah. He's definitely. Father and daughter. I would do all of the above, all of the above. on, take out your calendar, Alan, I need to put this in your calendar. Okay. And I just talked to Jim Shetton about this, our mutual friend.

But on November 29th, this is the last Saturday of November. So November 29, 2025, at noon, we're going to record live from Palma's Kitchen again for TMLX21. Everybody who comes out is going to be fed by Palma pasta. On that note, Mr. Zweig, in my freezer right now, I have a frozen lasagna for you from Palma pasta. Okay, but as far as that goes, as far as going to that one, I would say no comment. Notice how much restraint I'm showing once again. Yeah.

Well, you know, what I find interesting is I didn't, before the one I attended, which we won't talk about, had you ever done anywhere you didn't do a show? Okay. At Palma's Kitchen, I always do a recording. I see. Okay. Yeah, this is all rules I haven't shared of anyone. Right. Because I didn't know that you always do a show.

So there's different varieties, but the ones that happen at Great Lakes Brewery, by the way, I have fresh craft beer for you, Alan, from Great Lakes. Somebody will enjoy that. So the Great Lakes Brewery TMLX events, which are usually in late June, and the GLB Brew Pub TMLX events, which are typically in late September, that's just a hang, okay, no live recording. But the TMLX events at Palma's Kitchen every late November or early December. This year it's November 29, the last Saturday of the month. I always record live from those. So that'll happen again. Well, you know what?

I would consider going because last time, the story we're not going to tell, but part of that story involved, I don't know if you remember that. Simon Rakoff. So, right, I was going to come to the thing, but I didn't have a license. So I asked Blair. Blair said, well, he's going to come, but he's having cataract surgery the day before, so he can't drive. I asked Simon, he said, well, I can drive, but I don't have a car. So Simon borrowed a car from his cousin and lived at Dufferin Street.

Simon lives at Davisville. If he had a car, he could go down and pick up Blair around Broadview and then come and get me. But since he didn't have a car, he went to Dufferin Street. Then he came to pick me up in the junction. Then he went all the way across town to pick up Blair. East Yore? Then we went back, and it was an hour and a half before we got there, which is part of the reason by what happened, happened. Next time, I could just drive there. So maybe I will. And also, I'll know what I will know what to expect. Also, if you want me to be in it, maybe tell me the time that might happen. Well, that'll happen when I spot you and I wave you on. Okay. Okay. I don't like to pre-plan these things. I'll consider it. I could bring Jim. Jim doesn't have a like. I don't know how to hell he gets out there. And it is a very cumbersome process.

Jim and I used to do a podcast together and we stopped doing it. So I don't get to see him very often. So that might be an opportunity for me to see Jim. I'm going to think about it. You made my day. I would love it if you were there. Okay. So that is, everyone's invited, by the way.

And I have an exciting announcement from Ty, the Christmas guy. He's from Retro Festive. He's going to bring amazing gifts for the first 75 people who come to this thing. So, and sometimes I always wonder, am I even going to get seven people, right? So that sounds like a lot of people. That's part of the amazing thing of Toronto Mike day. You have live fan fest.

Some people have them once every two years. You have like four or five a year. Three or four, yeah. Yeah. So the first 75 people at TMLX 21. It's a free event, by the way. You know, my buddy, I should shout him out, Nick Iini's because he's got a great podcast.

He can't believe I don't charge admission to these things, but I don't want to charge admission of these things. I just want you to come. I'll feed you. I'll feed you. I'll bring the cold GLB, and Ty's going to bring a gift, a holiday gift.

You don't have to celebrate Christmas to enjoy the gift that Ty's going to bring you, but he is Ty the Christmas guy. But being Christian is not a requirement. So we're all good here. Yeah, don't worry. That's that, whatever.

When you spend 73 years Jewish with Christmas, you've made your peace with it. Don't worry. well Howard Humble Howard the aforementioned celebrates a secular Christmas like he just sort of does this Christmas tree thing but I've had many many mostly non-Jewish girlfriends and if they have Christmas I have Christmas it's fine with me okay well I just don't I do you know it's like if my girlfriend goes away for Christmas it's not like oh what am I going to do on Christmas right right go see a movie

okay blue sky agency shout out to Doug Mills if you you know there's a big return to office I don't think guys like us have to worry about that, Alan. But there are people being called back to the office. And if anyone out there listening is looking for dynamic and creative work environments, Doug Mills at Blue Sky Agency is your guy. You can write them right now, Doug at blueskyagency.cage him in a conversation about dynamic and creative work environments. I've already shouted out Ridley Funeral Home, but I didn't give you your measuring tape.

Alan's Wig, you now have a measuring tape from Ridley Funeral Home. Recycle My Electronics.ca. that's where you go if you have old electronics, old cables. I'm sure you've got a whole freaking closet full of this stuff, Alan. Yeah, that's some stuff. Drawer. Don't throw it in the garbage because the chemicals end up in our landfill. Go to recycle myelectronics.ca.

Put in your post and go, what are you measuring over there, Alan? Okay. It's exciting, Alan. Because I'm not going to open the beer, I'm going to do the sound of the measuring tape snapping back. You are not a beer guy, but do you enjoy cannabis? I enjoy the thought that I would have it again, but I haven't had it again either. Yeah, I haven't.

I keep thinking I'm going to, but I keep not, and I don't know why. But, yeah, and I do occasionally drink scotch. And I do occasionally drink other things. So I can't help you have the scotch. But if you require any cannabis product, go to shop kindling. I've got to make sure I hit the D in that.

I've been missing the D. Shopkindling.ca. And they'll deliver it. Yeah, under an hour, it's going to be at your door discreetly, and you can even track the order. You don't need to be discreetly. No, you don't, but you know what? I say it because some people in certain, but we talk about the stigma around suicide. There's still a stigma in certain places around cannabis usage. You know what I just noticed the other day?

I'm sure you've seen this place. So there's two cannabis stores right around the corner from me on Dundas West. one of them was there for a long time it moved it's on it's on pacific now into that spot now has moved another cannabis store so the cannabis store that used to be there had some kind of vestibule so when you came when you look through the window you couldn't see anything except a wall but the new store that's there now yeah it's way open so if you look in the window you will see your neighbors buying cannabis And no discretion. Why shouldn't you?

Well, I have no stigma there, but some do. And if you, you know, it's convenient, go to shop kindling.ca. Okay, Alan, I need to talk a little podcasting with you. You're a fellow podcaster. One big question I have, and I'm very curious how you're going to answer this, in your mind as you close your eyes, here you are comfortable on the mics. We're a good hour deep into this thing.

What is the difference in your mind between a podcast and a documentary film? Good question. um well so i know this is not the answer you want but i will tell you this part first i just want the truth so doing podcast interviews and i haven't done that many right i've done six for the worst then i've done 10 for tubby now i've done one more for the worst so i've i have 17 times interviewed people on podcasts and it's way harder than my films because in my films I first of all in my films if I interview you and I don't get anything I don't put it in my film right and then also I interview you for two hours and I use three minutes in the podcast

I interviewed somebody for 45 minutes we're going to use 20 minutes so one thing that's really weird with me i don't know how you can cure me of this they're trying to cure me is that i i the dead air drives me crazy and i keep jumping in to the dead air and then it has the effect of making me sound like i'm flailing and that's because i am flailing like i know you probably heard the episode of the worst where i interviewed ron mclean he's an fotm and as soon as i've and i asked ron McLean, straight up, Ron, tell me that even though all these years that Don Cherry was a curmudgeon, you're also a commigion, you just hit it to let him. And he's like, no, no, I'm fucking Pollyanna. So then it's like, you're on my show for grumps and you're Pollyanna. So I

really flailed there. Now, other than that, the difference between a documentary and a podcast is not that much except the editing of my films is 50% of the artistry, if not 75%, and in a podcast that's not

required. You're making... Not required, but you do prefer a little bit edited podcasts. Yeah, but you're just mostly editing out the really bad moments, whereas in a film, you're putting, you know, 23 people

going from one person and the next person back to that person. So, yeah. Other than that, yes, I think that there are a lot of documentaries and mine is not the only one that you could probably listen to on the radio. That's probably true. I, you know, the visuals, their faces, et cetera, et cetera, means something to me. I've never made a radio documentary.

But other than that, yeah, the podcast that I do are a little slicker than my films. that's but they come from you know the podcast i'm doing now tubby that's out there now i listen to the fourth episode today uh uh i made i say this in the opening i made three films with that mirror the record collecting one the being chronically single the one being thought of as negative if i made a fourth one it would have been about being fat but i just was fed up with so tubby is like the personal documentary that I didn't make in podcast form and it's very similar to what that film would have been so for me my podcasts now the worst is different because it's definitely less I don't know less not honest but it's more meant to be entertaining and

funny. People hear tubby and they're like, it's not that funny, Alan. And I'm like, yeah, I know. It wasn't meant to be funny. I hope there's moments of levity, but it's not that funny. But anyway, okay, little nuts and bolts here. So, listener of this podcast, know that you had a show with Canada Land. They had this idea for this thing they called Double Double, which I understand was sort of to appeal to an American audience. This is my understanding of double double you can interrupt me if I get it completely well you're okay so here's the thing yeah yeah I don't know if this is interesting to viewers well it's interesting to me okay so uh you can make a living from your podcast because you do it by yourself in your basement and you're fucking great at it

but most places don't do that so they have overhead and they have to have advertising and they have to pay people in including now in the case of Canada land they did pay me a reasonable amount of money but then they had to make a lot of money and have a lot of downloads. So, yeah, I don't know what I'm saying. What I'm saying here is it's not that they were appealing to Americans. They're appealing to people, you know this, all you're appealing to are people that listen to podcasts.

And you don't care where they come from. And you just need 50,000 people to listen in order for you to get paid and probably most of it was 50,000 are Americans, but it's not like the show is slanted to Americans or something like that. It's just they hoped they would get a lot of listeners. Okay, but what was the reason to introduce the double-double?

And again, I am going to build a story here to get us to Tubby and I want to talk about Alan Black, for example. Well, I don't know. What happened was, I might be wrong. Canada land at one point was doing so well that they thought they would expand their brand and they hired this lovely woman named Julie Shapiro who was a podcast like a kingmaker in the States

I just want to tell you a funny story about her so I read an article about her and it said she's the Quincy Jones of podcasting and so I said to her aren't you embarrassed to be called like Quincy Jones of podcasting and not even just you're a Jewish white woman and he's black but and she said she didn't like it later i didn't interview with her with somebody and i called her the steve albini of podcasting and she was thrilled and asked me can i use that

and it's like yeah you can use that so they hired as julie to to do some shows that would be more in the entertainment thing and they i guess called it a different name rather than canada land though it was Canada Lent. And some of those shows did really well, but the worst did okay if people weren't getting paid, but not that great if people were. The numbers were very good.

I don't want to get into who has big numbers. I'm just saying, I was impressed by the numbers, but those numbers were not enough to impress advertisers enough. to us to get paid now we are doing it again and this time this time they're they're hoping that they can play all the episodes for new guests and they'll go okay I know what I'm getting into and then they'll be able to get more famous guests having said that the first famous guest they got me was Canadian so okay okay and it's worth noting that it's not just a Canada land production this round like oh yeah oh sorry i'm saying i should have no but uh not as well whatever

canada land needed a partner and they went to sonar and so sonar who have you know a lot of nice podcasts i heard one one day and i thought wow this is this is my kind of show and then i found that it was sonar um which show oh i should look on my phone it's like the guy and the girl and they're a comedian they talk about people see secrets. Because for listeners, Michael Mangiarty was on this program fairly recently, and it's him and his wife are basically like founders of sonar. His fiancé.

And Humble and Fred, which we mentioned Humble earlier, but Humble and Fred recently, like in early 2025, moved their show to the Sonar networks in order to... It's called, yeah, sure, why not? Okay. I thought it was really cool. Oh, so I'm one Fred are on... The Sonar Network, yeah. Okay, so Sonar and Canterland are collectively trying to bring back my show the worst.

And in the meantime... You all hear, so let me get in there. Is Katie Lour part of the second season? Yeah, this, Katie is... Katie was my producer, but then she got a job. So now, but I don't want to do this show without her. So Katie is now, she was my producer and sidekick, and now she's, just my sidekick.

And even maybe getting almost close to a co-host because the last time I was really flailing and Katie jumped in there. Well, she's delightful. She's delightful. Alan Black, I want to talk about Alan Black because he's going to play a role in the whole tubby launch here. But Alan Black was with Canada Land when you did the first season of the worst podcast.

Yeah. So Alan Black, I knew he was a filmmaker, but he worked at Hot Dogs. and that's how I mostly knew him. Then he went to work at Canada land. And after he'd been there a year, and I guess they were giving him more responsibility, he's the one who suggested me to Canada land. He's a big wife.

And we did, and he is a guy who really, really loves podcast, believes in podcasts, wants to help the industry, just like Katie. And I guess you're, and yourself for sure.

I mean, you're doing a bunch of stuff. shows. And so he quit Canada Land and I'm not sure why, but maybe just because he wanted to go off on his own. So he went off on his own and then he, at some point we had a coffee and I said, I have an idea for another show about the great struggle. I say something like being fat is almost like there's my life and then the soundtrack that's playing in the background all the time, which I'm not showing you, but I, but I am showing myself like, like, that, you know, that, that shirt doesn't fit or, or I just went from a double X to a triple X.

God forbid I have to shop at George Richards next. Like that has been running through my whole life. And so I thought, what about a show? Also, because I'm always trying to lose weight and I'm always listening to self-help weight loss shows but sometimes I think what about a show about being fat with no help and no weight loss involved maybe there's a small group of fat people who would just like that so what if you're not somebody who considers themselves fat like is this podcast uh would it be enjoyable to somebody who i've heard that it is because again it's just that thing that you talked about

It's authentic people having authentic conversations telling you, yeah, about whatever, like wearing corduroy pants and it's, you know, the amount of heat generated between your thighs by corduroy. Like maybe that you find that, if they have a sense of humor about it, maybe you could too. I think, definitely I think it's people who aren't fat have listened to it and have enjoyed it. And, yeah, I have hope for it. So Alan Black is now at left of dial media, and he's hired you to produce Tubby. I'm not producing. Oh, no, you just did the host.

I'm the talent. Okay, how come you don't want to do your own production? Like, I feel like you'd, you know, you, I don't know why, I guess. You should do it all. Yeah. Well, someday when both of those fail, I'll come to you and you'll set me up in my house. Do you know who you are, Alan? I'll do my own show and, uh, and, uh, and, uh, and, and, uh, and, and, yeah, I'll, like, it's bizarre for me, knowing you, I know I'm interrupting.

Toronto Jewish Allen. It's bizarre for me to consider you as a hired gun host. Like, to me, you are. I get it. You're the guy, you know, your vision. You, you, you should be controlling the production. Yeah. Well, I don't, you know, yeah, that's a, I don't, on some level, I, well, when it came to Canada land, they didn't give me that choice. and I don't know, I guess, partly it's because I'm lazy, right? That's all. It's just, that's editing is hard, hard work.

Okay, well, maybe a moment on it. So just to recap here, obviously people need to hunt down and watch Love Herald, which is your new documentary. We talked about that in the first hour. And it sounds like we're getting a second season because we're not talking about your appearance at Palmer's Kitchen, but it's possible if you were there,

have said something to the effect of like it's dead yeah yeah i thought it was but it's been resurrected it's been resurrected by sonar's interest okay and it it will come out in probably the winter of 2026 and again that's a long time from now right because they're waiting for tubby to oh i wondered what they thought of tubby like uh does sonar care or no well i think i think tubby will be to the benefit of the worst. I think it's, you know, again,

I don't know. For me to say, like, it's raised my profile in the podcasting, like W has gotten all kinds of attention and mentions in the Guardian and shit like that.

There was, I mentioned this on, on Facebook that somebody, oh, the Guardian, I think, was like candid conversations about being fat.

The host is kind of self-flagellating. It's like, well, you can't be happy that it's candid and then nail me for self-flagellation. The fact the Guardian is writing about your podcast. Like, don't bury the lead here. The Guardian ain't writing about my podcasts. Yeah, because you don't need them.

Well, self-flagulate. Anyway, whatever. What would you rather? I'll trade your guardian for CNN. I bet they haven't called in a while. I feel like I got two hits. They did twice. They called back.

That means, okay, we like you the first time. But it's been, it's been a few months since the second. You should phone him and tell them about, you know, Doug Ford, all this shit that he's doing. You can. Oh, my God. I save all that for Ed Keenan every quarter. I just kind of unload on him here. Okay.

So you're now this going concern in the podcast world. Tubby is out there now. It is conversations about weight and body image and self-esteem. And I know you like to make sure we know it's not a self-help podcast, even though you've put it in the self-help category. We didn't put it in the self-help. They didn't have a category. They didn't have a category. Because you do choose your own category.

Oh, do you? Okay. Well, maybe we just put it in that category to upset people. Right. Maybe it's like... We have to go somewhere. Maybe people like self-help will listen to it and it's like, oh, thank God it's not self-help. I don't know.

I couldn't really find the right category for this very podcast. What do you call yours? Self-flagellation. Personal journals is where I am. Okay. Because it was the best of the options. Like nothing really fit perfectly. Nothing.

You cannot fit into a cat. category. My man. Thank you. I'm going to ask you about editing for a moment here because I've heard you say you don't think podcast should ever be unedited. Like I've heard you say those I'm not. Okay. That's, no, because if I said that, then I would be saying that you shouldn't do it the way you do it. Well, that's what I'm getting at here. Like, should I take, like, let's say we talk for 90 minutes. And I'm going to be saying goodbye soon because I actually have a client to record soon. So let's say we talk for 90 minutes. In your mind, as a filmmaker and the host of multiple podcasts,

that should be whittled down to like a strong 60, possibly? I'm not going to say that to you because your listeners like to hear the unedited thing. I'm just saying, I put you in a different category. And you're not the only one in that category. There's Mark Maren was probably in that category too. And there's some talk things that, you know,

first of all, let's just be practical. If you had to edit these things, you wouldn't be doing as many as you do. Right. And you really like to do a lot. No, necessity is a mother of invention. And, you know, whatever. No, I think everything is, yes,

I think everything would be better edited, but I don't think that means everything necessarily should be. And if there's, in your case, there's a very good reason not to do it. And that's why, if you're even getting to, like, that I would suggest you do it, I am not suggesting you do it. But there is one episode I want to ask you about here, which is a very recent phone call with Ben Rayner. Did you hear the Ben Rayner?

I did. I was, where was I? I was in Calgary. It's funny. I was in Calgary in a certain moment of my life. And it was interesting that I was listening to that. And also, I know Ben mostly from going to Carlin. on Danforth. And I had noticed that he hadn't been there. And yes, the Ben Rayner episode was

very Zweigian. I, that would be, that could easily be, he could, I could make a film about him and that. And, uh, yeah, that was good. That was like, that was for me, that was, uh, that was primo Toronto Mike. So specifically, I'm wondering. So this was a phone call for various reasons. It wasn't going to be on Zoom or something like that. I was going to phone his phone. I phoned from Google phone on this so I could record through the laptop and the board. Blah, blah, blah.

But I kept in that episode. I kept in my two false starts. So I phone him and he doesn't answer and it goes to voiceband. And I call him a second time and it goes to voice band. I'm kind of doing an ongoing commentary, just real time. Like, okay, Ben, where are you? And then the third time he answers. and I got one note from somebody

like, why didn't you edit that out? And I just thought I'd bring it up because I had, at the moment, my thought on this and my thought always has been, you're a fly on the wall, this is in real time how it went down, including the fact I had to call them three times to connect and then we had wind and all this shit.

But I want to know, should I've edited that out? No. No, I mean, if you wanted to, you could. No, I didn't want to. The thing is, there's lots of, you know, like, I could make a man. meal of this, right? I, when I do an interview, am miced. Usually, the film people, they don't mic the guy. And then if you ask a question, you probably put it later in ADR or something like that.

No, I can hear Stu Stone doing Dark Side of the Ring and he's like, it sounds like he's like in another room. There's this moment in my Art Bergman film that I've cut out. Yeah. But I love it because he turns to my you can't even tell you can't see Ryan my boom guy but all of a sudden art is feeling really sorry that he's been standing there holding the boom and he gets mad at me for making him do that and I'm like he's doing it he's doing it's his own choice and then Ryan is that true and then Ryan says yes we could do this and it's a lovely moment now I'm not using it But that's the kind of moment. I have a moment in one of my films.

There's a house here where the cameraman was mad at me for being in the shot. But I was like, well, don't fucking shoot from like there. And I didn't, you know, it's a question of why. People will almost say, why did you put that in? It's not that I put it in. It's just that the vibe of what I'm doing is going to include a little bit of, and here's the thing. Why I'm bringing up the Mike thing is because a lot of filmmaking was about pretending that you weren't even interviewing the person, just pretending that they were just standing there talking, which is why this is what happens. Mike, I'm the interviewer. Mike, what do you have for breakfast? And you say eggs. And I go, okay, Mike, my question is not going to be in this. So now I want you to say, Alan, I had eggs for breakfast. And then let's do it again. And I say, now my interview subject has just become an actor. And they're saying dialogue. And so even though people said,

My question shouldn't be in there to avoid that. So once you're not avoiding admitting that you're there, why would you avoid that you phoned him once and he didn't pick up? Why would you avoid that unless you, they want the artifice of believing that you and Ben Raynor were in those office pods that you're selling? Silence pods. In the cone of silence and a beautiful, why it's obvious even from the tone on his phone

that he wasn't somewhere that he was somewhere with lousy sound that's part of what makes the episode great so oh we're on the exact same page you know what I'm going to get my cannabis for that pipe at shopkinling.ca right now hey this art Bergman when can I see the art Bergman dog a year from now I'll take that and will it include the two words I hope to hear in it Fuck boot sauce.

No, but it will, I do say to him that when he saw lowest at a low and they passed him, I said to him, so you're even lower than the lowest of the low. It did inspire a great song, though, from Ron Hawkins. And I don't know if you've heard it yet, but there is now a boot sauce episode of Toronto Microsoft. I heard it, I heard it. And the best part about it was he talked about his dad,

who is an unbelievably, maybe one of the, greatest jazz guitars who ever lived. And, no, I didn't say fuck Bootsaw. The Bootsaw story is not their fault. It was their manager. It was a road manager. But that's why I had the conversation with Sonny because I'd heard these things and I needed to talk to someone in the band.

Well, you know what? The guy was admitted that maybe there was some reason that people didn't like them back then. But Art doesn't say that. He says, where are they now, though? He does say that. They're in Ireland. At least one is.

Okay. Alan, by any chance, are you a baseball fan? I'm really happy for what's happening, but I feel like if I watch the game, they'll lose. On behalf of all sports fans in Toronto, I don't watch anything in order to not jinxing. And you're busy tomorrow night because you're... Yeah, but I mean, you know,

how many times I've seen that George Springer, Homer? Like, maybe 50 times. So that was an amazing moment. It's even in Toronto, Mike, ahead of the episode. And the fact that that guys, that these heroes are from Canada, this whole idea that their Canada's team

is like a little more believable when they're actually Canadians. Well, there are no Canadians on the Blue Jays. What are you talking about? Isn't Vladdy? Oh, he was born here, but he's Dominican. Okay. Okay, he was born in his dad played for the Expos.

So he's born here, right? I'm sorry, I'm sorry. He's born here. He's born here. He's born here. I'm sorry. Gladdy's amazing. He's Canadian. Working on his English, but what a great player. He's born here. You're right. You're right. My apologies. So, we're on our way out, but we're going to pose by the Toronto tree before you leave. And I'm wondering, will you hold a baseball bat in your hand when we take this photo? Do you know why I'm asking? I don't to humiliate me? Because FOTM, your favorite FOTM, I think, FOTM, Brad

Bradford was holding a bat on the cover of the Toronto Sun just before he launched his 2026 Toronto mayoral campaign and I just thought it'd be funny to send that up with Alan Swig holding a bat in our photo. Okay, as long as you make it clear that I'd prefer to use it on his head. And that brings us to the end of our 1,786th show. Go to Toronto Mike.com. for all your Toronto Mike needs. Much love to all who made this possible.

That's Great Lakes Brewery, Palmapasta, Nikaiini's, Kindling, Recycle My Electronics.C.a. Blue Sky Agency and Ridley Funeral Home. See you Monday.

Can't believe it. This is very exciting. Rush me neer will be back in the basement. I haven't heard from her since she lost the gig at Belmese. media. She was on 10-10 afternoon drive. This is a bit of a radio app. You might want to skip it out. You're taking a few days off. I'm taking a few days off. I'm taking the weekend off. Absolutely. Monday, rush me nearer. See you then.