Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - Allan Gregg: Toronto Mike'd Podcast Episode 1618

Episode Date: January 27, 2025

In this 1618th episode of Toronto Mike'd, Mike chats with Allan Gregg about his years as a conservative pollster, getting Brian Mulroney elected as Prime Minister, working with Jake Gold managing The Tragically Hip, his role with the Toronto International Film Festival, his show on TVO, and so much more. Toronto Mike'd is proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, Palma Pasta, Ridley Funeral Home, and RecycleMyElectronics.ca. If you would like to support the show, we do have partner opportunities available. Please email Toronto Mike at [e-mail]

Welcome to episode 1618 of Toronto Miked! Proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, a fiercely independent craft brewery who believes in supporting communities, good times and brewing amazing beer. Order online for free local home delivery in the GTA. Palma Pasta. Enjoy the taste of fresh homemade Italian pasta and entrees from Palma Pasta in Mississauga and Oakville. RecycleMyElectronics.ca. Committing to our planet's future means properly recycling our electronics of the past.

Building Toronto's Skyline. Leading to our planet's future means properly recycling our electronics of the past. Building Toronto's Skyline, a podcast and book from Nick Gainey's, from Fusion Corp, and Ridley Funeral Home, pillars of the community since 1921. Joining me today, making his Toronto mic debut is Alan Gregg. Welcome to Toronto mic'd Alan. Thank you very much for having me. Thanks for being here. And I'm apologizing now that when you arrived, you had, you know, naturally you had questions

and we were having small talk and I'm like, Alan, shut up. We're going to go live and do it all on the recording. So I don't mean to be short, I'm actually thrilled to have Alan Gregg here in the basement. That's where I pause for you to say happy to be here and glad to make your dreams come true. That and more. So it's cold out there. It's very cold. So my wife, much like yourself, I'm gonna ask you off the top about this, but my wife was born and raised in Edmonton, Alberta. Great place to come from. That's where the greats come from, right?

We joke like when days like this, a very rare day where I don't bike, I bike 360 days a year, there's a handful of days where I say, oh, that weather is not bikeable. Today's one of those days. And I'll say, Oh, this is crazy. And she'll be like, this was the norm in Edmonton. Is it like this often in Edmonton? Tell me if that's true. I just, uh, had my 73rd birthday, January 14th, which typically was the coldest day of the year in Edmonton. And, uh, when I was about 16, I told my mom and dad, no more January 14th

birthdays, we're going to have it on May 15th, but I told my mom and dad, no more January 14th birthdays. We're gonna have it on May 15th. But I, you know, like all kids in the prairies, played hockey, outdoor rinks, and I can remember the toughest guy on the team crying his eyes out because his toes and his ears were frozen. Yeah. Typical.

It can hurt, right? Yes. This is a painful cold. Minus 40, you have no frame of reference to understand that until you've lived it. Throughout this convo, I'll be reading notes that came in from listeners who are excited you're here. Tim Herron wrote in to say, ask Alan about growing up in Edmonton. So right off the top, tell me a little bit about where you come from. When did you leave Edmonton? Why do you leave Edmonton? Bring me back to the chilly confines of Edmonton, Alberta, Canada.

Well, I was born and raised just outside of Edmonton, a Jasper place, an unamalgamated town that was Edmonton and grew, became part of Edmonton. My dad sold suits at Eaton's. Did one from the time he was 21 until he died at 64. My mother was a homemaker who only wanted to be a mother. I had two biological children, adopted three more. It was an idyllic time. I mean, you don't want to sound like a nostalgic old fart, but I mean, you really did believe that if you worked hard and put your mind to it,

you could be anything you want and you, my child, had the right to expect more than I had and a good education was the key to success in the future and that you had experience that more or less corresponded to those beliefs. Like everyone in Alberta, unless you got the Rhodes Scholarship and went to Oxford, you went to University of Alberta. You didn't even think about going to UBC. Well, that's where my wife went. You didn't even think. If you lived on a farm, you went in residence, and if you didn't, you lived in your mom's basement until you graduated, then you got married the next day.

So that was kind of the life that was expected and that was the life that was lived. I like how you use the term nostalgic old fart and I was thinking, do you know where you are, Alan? This is the home of nostalgic old farts. Toronto Mike here. I love the nostalgia. Quite the opposite.

One of the reasons I'm here is because most of my adult and professional life, I felt very confident about understanding what's happening in the sociopolitical culture. And I feel much less confident today than I really ever have. And, and thought that, you know, Alan, you've really got to get out there and interact more, you know, meet people like Toronto, Mike, meet his, uh, his audience and start figuring things out a little bit better.

Well, let me ask you a little bit about that because we were connected by a, an FOTM. FOTM means friend of Toronto Mike. You're now an FOTM Alan Gregg. There you go. And for the listenership, not to be confused with cuddly FOTM Alan Grego, although you both

spell Alan the same way, uh, Grego and Greg, two different last names, two different human beings. Although I'm sure you're cuddly as well. Trying to be. Okay, so we're connected because FOTM Jesse Hirsch was telling me that he had had some combos with you lately and he's like, Alan, firstly, when I started podcasting, I remember distinctly early days,

we're going back 12 years or so, that my podcast, I would be, oh my God, I'm in the top 10 on Apple Podcasts. Oh, I think it was like iTunes back then and I'm like this is kind of cool but I would always see a TVO podcast there Alan Gregg like you had a TVO podcast that would be right beside me in the early days of Toronto Mike then I'd be like I got a target this guy I got to get this guy in the basement at some point many years later here, here you are. There you go. No, 19 years on TVO and it was a serious hobby. It wasn't a full-time gig. I always had other

things going on but a great team in terms of producer and researcher and that we interviewed some of the smartest people in the world uninterrupted by commercial breaks and you know I learned very very early on the producer said you know no one's going to turn this on hear the questions you ask they're gonna turn this on to hear the answers your guests get so this isn't about you buddy and your job is to make sure these guys come across and women come across as smart as they can be. Like you're there to extract the interesting tales that they have to tell.

Like you're there to just extract this content for your listenership. Oh absolutely and we had people everyone from Jane Goodall to Salman Rushdie to Boris Johnson to John Kretchen and I think we over had a thousand guests. So a couple more questions only because this show is in spirit very similar to the show you're on right now and some guys South Etobicoke basement which tells you how things have changed But please tell me like how long would these conversations run usually typically around they edited it down to 30 minutes But they would go 45 50 minutes, and I'm curious

I know that you know TV Ontario of course old stalwart shadow to FOTM Steve Paken who's hopefully You know at home listening by the way Tim Heron the same guy you wanted me to ask you about growing up in Edmonton course old stalwart shadow to FOTM Steve well thank you to him very nice but i'm curious uh... did you ever consider at the time ago i just had a chat with jane goodall from making up a make it up here for fifty two minutes do we need to edit this down to half an hour maybe this is a fifty two minute experience where you're flying the wall well alan greg talks to uh... jane goodall well if you that's luxury that you uh... that you have i mean one of my guilty pleasures live and i have for decades loved howard

stern sure and he's evolved into a great great interviewer right that you have. I mean one of my guilty pleasures and I have for decades loved Howard Stern and he's evolved into a great, great interviewer. Probably injects himself a little bit too much into the conversation but part of his greatness is that he has got this kind of very elastic format that lets him go an hour and a half with his guests and he gets to places that you can't. I also did uh... the at issue panel on cbc for decades and every thursday night before we went on air the producer would said be brief and i think will

why would be very brief and you can sustain an our television anyway we want to get to chirpy the squirrel in the background islander how to put two cars in a one-car garage right and the it there always was this notion of brevity. And that brevity can be the enemy of enlightenment, there's no question. And what I've learned only doing this 1618 times

is often the good stuff comes at like the 45 minute mark because it takes some time to build, we've never met each other before. You have to build a relationship and also to get your guests to have their guard down a little bit because most people come in with their little soap box, they've got a little agenda that they want to advance and the agenda isn't necessarily very interesting. It's interesting to the guests but not necessarily to the

audience. So your job in a sense is almost to get them off script. I find this a lot particularly if I do with politicians actually, we'll talk more about this in a minute. But I find that you really do kind of like you need to talk, let's talk a little bit about Edmonton. And maybe there's a tangent there where you tell me your hero is Bobby Orr, we talk about, you know, how you feel about, you know, Bobby Orr and recent development, and then we kind of get off there. And then when we come back, you've got a sense of comfort, you know, you've kind of let your guard down. Maybe you kind of dropped the talking points memo that you were handed from your advisor or something. And now you can have a conversation with this human being.

Absolutely. Okay, we're singing from the same songbook here. Okay, so again, few hits here. I know where I want to go. If you have any questions, I know you had some questions and I said, Alan, let's do it on the recording so you can Bug me about anything as we go here since well, let me do that because I mean, I've watched your podcast loved the two Charlie Angus interviews. Yeah, it was last Monday. Thought they were exceptional both when he was

Advancing his the grievous angel and the second time he came on as a grievous devil But that really really insightful into a guy who most people don't really know that well, and you know, a member of parliament from Northern Ontario and big deal, new Democrat, real predictable, none of those things, really insightful. And what I like about him is that when you invite him, because the first time, my rule, and I'm curious what you think of this rule,

maybe this is a bad rule, but it's my personal rule, because this is all really, I'm curious what you think of this rule, maybe this is a bad rule, but it's my personal rule because this is all really my own target audience here. But I have never pursued an active politician in the 12 or 13 years I've been doing this. Like, so when I mean by active, somebody who's still in public office, like if someone in public office comes on Toronto Miked, they've reached out like their people or they have or their handler or whatever. Somebody has said, hey, would you talk to this person and then when I get that request which has happened a few times like it happened with Stephen Del Duca it's happened with Brad Bradford it's happened a few times I'll consider like do I want to talk to this person sometimes I say no thank you and

sometimes I say yeah I'll have that chat but I've never initiated a chat like that so Charlie Angus Jason Schneider I, was helping him publicize the Grievous Angels music. And he's like, would you talk to Charlie about Grievous Angels? And I'm like, well, 100% I'll talk to Charlie Angus, but about whatever I want. Like, you know, we're not, I'm not, I mean, Grievous Angels all loaded up and will definitely talk Grievous Angels, but I'm going to like chat with him about other things too. And he's like, yeah, of course. And then Charlie just sort of, he drives himself. He sits down here. We talk for like an hour I don't edit a stitch. He knows that I don't know if he knows it or not

But I don't edit a stitch I throw it out there and then now that we have this rapport and he's now in FOTM Because he you know his people asked or someone asked if he could come on I now have this connection where I can be like what happened last two Sundays ago where I wrote him I was thinking I was wearing this Trump thing in this 51st day, the guy was wearing it, the guy was bugging me. Like I don't know, is it bugging you at all? Like what are your thoughts on the Trump threats to annex our sovereign nation?

Oh, listen, like everyone else, I mean, anyone else who's sentient, I'm very concerned and very confused too. And this goes to what I said earlier you know wanting to interact a little bit more than I have been in the last five six years guys like Jesse Hearst who I talked to every week as a matter of course he's a one of the most brilliant techno cultural anthropologists he just sees stuff that most people don't see and my relationship with him goes back

You know some 20 years and I remember while engulfing of all things This is how we started a relationship golfing and being on the golf course and him saying I'm saying you know what I think that the The iPhone is going to surpass Blackberry in terms of market share and I said that's impossible This is when everyone had a Blackberry. Everyone had a Blackberry. And he said, no, no, it's all gonna be about software, not hardware.

And I just kind of dismissed it. And then next year, iPhone surpassed Blackberry and Blackberry is dead now. Blackberry shout out to Ridley Funeral Home. But something else you said I think is very interesting, the temper of our times, that politicians want to come to you know you and that is not you know when i was

managing politicians yet you did you want to control the environment all the time and uh... again i talk about uh... howard stern he went on great links that hillary clinton made a massive mistake in two thousand sixty not going on a show because she did not want to expose himself to an uncertain and in the air and then she went on lay after she was defeated ran admitted

that that was the case and this is a you know when politicians you know where they've lost faith in politicians and you conclude there no great men or women left we're really looking for is authenticity and authenticity you know requires honesty and it means letting yourself get bare naked and coming on to see Toronto Mike.

And that wouldn't have happened when I was actively involved in managing politics. Well, we're gonna cover all this. This is almost the preamble here still. And we will get back to Jesse Hirsch. I have more questions about that. But to finish my Charlie Angus thing here is that it was Sunday, just two

Sundays ago, and I was wearing this, this, this rhetoric, this, the fact that people were kind of mainstream media seemed to be taking it on some sort of face value where they were having segments like shows. I respect. And I know somebody who was going to hate hearing this, but shows I respect were talking about like, what would it look like if Canada joined the USA? Like they were having new panels with important people would be having these conversations and was really I

Was wearing it and I reached out to Charlie Angus who's who was already an FOTM And I just said Charlie I need to talk to you, but I'm not zooming with you It's gonna be it has to be my basement and me I mean while I'm talking to a guy who lives in like Timmons James Bay like He's not popping over whatever and he's like I could be there tomorrow morning like I'm like oh what were what okay I said let's do it 1030 tomorrow and he was at the door by himself and he sat down and we chatted for I don't know 45 minutes or so and it was great and so

thank you for listening to that episode and i also it i really enjoy chatting with a guy like charlie angus well and you know he's given up his uh... his office his uh... his position in in parliament but i mean your interview with him especially the second one made it absolutely clear he has no interest in giving up in politics in fact he's going to become a real politician now unfettered by public office and all of the things party discipline and everything

else and You know what I felt after the convolute? I felt like he's making a mistake. He should change his mind, he should run, he should win and he should pursue leadership of the federal NDP party. Again, I mean the difficulty in parliamentary democracy and in party discipline and uh... i mean look at the amount of time the leaders have to spend it could jolling and catering to right that uh... that caucus this is a guy who is truly independent thinker

and uh... that's what we need and you talk about donald trump is you know most of them no frame of reference to understand how a guy who the the washington post has documented lying lying 32,000 times during his first term could be re-elected. Well, what you've got right now is a population that is forming its decisions, its attitudes, using completely different dimensions than they have in the past. And those who are wedded to those past dimensions have no frame of reference to understand why those decisions are being made today. Well, how are these decisions being made? Like I sit here again, different country, different everything. I

didn't have a vote and I'm sitting here and I'm like, oh, they decided to run that guy back. Like they're going to give this guy like a carte blanche to go again and it doesn't compute in my feeble little brain but again I don't I can't think like somebody I don't know someone in the rust belt I just can't can you help me understand how it is they gave a blank check to Donald J. Trump to be president again for four more years well one of the reasons we don't have a frame reference Gwynne Dyer said something hilarious and really insightful a long time ago, she says, Canadians have no frame of reference to understand America because half of America is exactly like Canada. Boston is just like Toronto.

He says the other half is exactly like Tehran. It's backwards, it's religiously focused, and we have no frame of reference to understand Biloxi because there's nothing, deers not like boxy is completely unusual and to the earlier earlier reference you know we're making canada the fifty first state yet me what would happen first is that the two more democrats

in the senate there'd be thirty more democrats in the house of common to be kissed canadians almost by definition i was at a long time going this also still holds even in the change times that were in is that they would have elected ariestotle is the prime minister because they love the golden mean i asked a very very simple question not that long was it when you think about

how you view politics would you describe yourself is very right wing somewhat right wing in the middle somewhat left wing or very left wing and only thirteen percent of canadians had themselves in the end zones seven percent seven extremely left wing six percent seven six extremely right plurality almost forty percent saying i'm in the center

and the unhappiness electorally was at the center felt least represented by the political process that the the system was much more polarized in the the the electorate is so but you know what when i say we don't have the kind of the, or we're wedded to a way of viewing the world that is completely different now.

I'll give you just one very, very simple example. Huge dimension right now in political choice is optimism and pessimism. You talked about growing up in Alberta inta in the fifties and sixties everyone was optimistic the future was optimistic the future was to be better than the past and this was a universally held view

two thousand sixteen exit polling in the united states election single best predictor a presidential voting behavior was not age was not ethnicity was not urban rural it was to a question to do you believe the best times are ahead of america or the best times are behind america eighty percent of from voters said they're behind us

eighty percent of clinton voters said there before us so here you got a population that the polarization isn't so much ideological but lived experience the people who believe that population that the polarization isn't so much ideological but lived experience the people who believe that that that the past was better it's not surprising there are no transgender toilets there but they're against trying to enter the bank women we you know stayed in the kitchen and uh... baked cookies so you know who wants

uh... nasty uh... feminists and so you've got a different dimension at work now trust in the system trust and why the system i'm not just talking nasty uh... feminists and so you've got a different dimension at work trust in the system trust and why the system i'm not just talking about politicians i'm talking about science uh... you know these were never issues and now these are major demarcations and dividing points in uh... in in outlook yes i'm gonna follow that thread there and ask you question and we are going to

do a little bit of a chronological walkthrough because I have these key questions because there's a lot of meat on your bones there. There's a lot here that interests me. And I'm like, okay, I could do, for example, I could do 90 minutes right now on working with Jay Gold and managing the Tragically Hip. Like I would enjoy doing that. But there's so much more meat on the bones but my question for you as a you know conservative strategist we will talk

about that you know key part of your career in a moment but why is anti trans legislation so like such a high priority and so key to the to to Trump's administration here well again I mean I talk about you know not understanding the dynamics that are at work here. I mean you look at the transition of blue-collar workers from the Democratic Party to the Republicans. Pun intended. And and you see you're seeing that right now Pierre Polyev has been able to capture blue-collar workers. Doug Ford has been able to capture blue-collar

workers because progressives in search of social justice for all the right able to capture blue collar workers. Doug Ford has been able to capture blue collar workers. Because progressives in search of social justice for all the right reasons, you know, moved past class politics to identity politics. Believing that really what they had to focus on for social justice was those people who were most discriminated against in society. Independent of their financial well-being

had to be advanced and in advancing them the blue-collar workers said no one's talking to me i mean twenty years ago thomas rich wrote a book called what's the matter with kansas where he said i don't understand this these are kansas wheat farmers voting republican the republican party is the party of wall street so he went there and he said why are you voting republican simple the democrats look down their nose at us you know they, they care way more about Steven Spielberg and David Geffen and transgender toilets

than they do about the price of wheat. And just felt left behind and abandoned. And that's a big dynamic at work right now. True, but very puzzling from where I sit just because they've decided their fearless leader would be this, would be Donald Trump, who to me is the last guy who would be of the farmers and the blue collar workers. Absolutely. How about evangelical voters? You know, he got 90% of the evangelical voters. This guy is the tantamount sinner.

He's got children with three women. That we've ever seen. Right. Grab them by the pussy. Right. He's just a horrible, horrible human being. Just the worst, the worst person. Like I wouldn't want to go grab a Great Lakes beer with Donald Trump. No, but because if you believe that all politicians are corrupt, then, you know,

you don't differentiate between- Scorch the earth. Absolutely. This guy's at least is going to stop- Agent of chaos. And stop abortion. Right. abortion right you know abortion and get rid of this I was at second city to watch FOTM Bob Willett do a thing on Friday night on there and they had two washrooms okay so I'm I hadn't been it's a new facility because I had to move that I'm at the second city this is one York and two washrooms

and both said non-gender specific or some terminology like that. So there is no men's room and women's room like you get at a Swish LA or something. Okay. But they had on it. One said stalls. The other said stalls plus urinals. Right. Okay.

Right. So I, oh, I want to urinal. I know where I'm going, which is like, you know, so but but I thought okay So the this this base that you mentioned, you know We mentioned Trump and we'd mentioned Pierre Poliev and Doug Ford this base that they sort of appeal to They wouldn't like that right like they want a men's room in a woman in a woman's room But this again, this is part of the zero-sum society when there's no contradiction be having transgender toilets and selling wheat I mean we just because you do one doesn't mean you can't do the other right as you do one because we can't do the other yet these are the the the kind of choices that are

politicians are saying you must make and the electorate confused uh... dismayed uh... feeling left behind fall in that trap fascinating and now i'm gonna establish you as why you'd be an interesting guy to get an opinion on this. And then I'm, and maybe I'll ask you this question first, and then we're gonna go back to that.

I got a question from Fred Waterer, which I think is interesting. But do you think Pierre Poliev and possibly also Doug Ford would read from this playbook and say, hey, anti-trans is how you, you know, is red meat for our base. Let's go in in that direction do you think anti-trans rhetoric will make their way into the political sphere here in Canada? No absolutely not and that is because you know as I say Canadians are not in the in the end

zones they are not extremists by almost definition and by nature I mean the foundation of the country is counter-revolutionary you know that we have but i had an ethos that we have to get along english and french and these sort of things have been imbued into our culture if there's an argument the anna may be the only country in the western world where conservatives would not reopen gay marriage capital punishment uh... transgender uh... issues, and until very very recently

immigration. And even there, I mean there still is an underlying sense that we are a nation of immigrants and that has been a good thing not a bad thing. But Alan what about your home province, the province that produced my wife, what about Alberta? Well again Angus Reed just did a very

interesting piece and he just said, do you believe the rest of Canada respects your province? And Alberta far and away the lowest, only 23%. And again that sense of grievance, that sense of alienation produces, you know, attitudes that say, well if you don't like me, I don't like you. Right, if the goal was to somehow

make Toronto Mike... But even, sorry just to finish. Yeah, I know't like you. Right, if the goal was to somehow make Toronto Mike. But even, sorry just to finish. Yeah, no, you finish. Look at the mayors of Edmonton and Calgary. You know, these are supposed to be hairy ass cowboys. And their mayors are incredibly progressive. Now, that's not Carstairs, Alberta. The rural area is very, very different.

Urban rural is a big, big variable of divide right now in cultural politics. I do wonder if you had a referendum state by state. Hey, you wanna join the US of A? I think every state, did I say state by state? I meant, that's a Freudian slip. Somebody write that down. But province by province, I suspect every province

would, in this referendum, would say, no, we're Canada, we're a sovereign nation, we don't want to be part u s a i'm not so sure about alberta no they would also uh... say i was there's there's more simply you know something about a friend and we're gonna get to that in a minute but uh... but but no and you know someone described it canadian identity is is the narcissism of small differences i mean we look in the mirror of america and we define ourselves in terms of what we don't see. And so Americans are intolerant, we are

tolerant. They are warlike, we are peaceful. You know, they are selfish, we are charitable. And that's the foundation of our identity and it's important and that's why no one really takes the the Trump notion of let's annex Canada as the 51st state seriously. And one last note on that, because I mean, I haven't even got to where I want to get to. My goodness, it's fascinating talking to you. We might need a sequel or two here. But one last note on that.

I suspect when I hear 51st state, what my brain does is it sort of converts that to, no, like whatever Puerto Rico is, that's what, you know what I mean? So 51st state isn't happening. No. But if I feel like they would definitely, this is why I wonder, like, you know what I mean? So 51st state isn't happening. No, but if I feel like they would Definitely I and this is why I wonder like, you know if you and I said this to Charlie Angus

But if you want us to be a part of your country Roll the fucking tanks now like you're right I'm gonna grab my hockey stick get my boys my girls and we're gonna be at the border But that's you're gonna have to use military force is what I'm saying And I know at the end of that story Trump has no interest in making Canada the 51st state we will be in the the Puerto Rico category and I even think what is it called again colony what is a Puerto Rico character whatever that is whatever that I know they don't get the vote federal it's an anachronism is

whatever it is hold my getting it colonialism more bullshit okay so Fred waterer writes in about you, Alan. Fascinating guy. He thinks you're fascinating. He spoke at an Ontario Tory campus club conference I attended in 1980, long before he was well known. I was not surprised to see his later success.

He's even in my library after the great schism in 1993, I chose notism in 1993 I chose not to embrace I chose not to embrace the Reform Alliance CPC so this is somebody obviously was a progressive conservative supporter who did not become what we now call the Conservative Party of Canada but this is a good gateway I'd like to know a little bit about this part of your career before I get to the tragically hip and Jay Gold, but sure you were a Tory strategist. Tell me how that came to be and what you were doing on

what for the Progressive Conservative Party of Canada, like, like many people. I mean, the big part of the path was fortuitous circumstance. I was happily doing a PhD at Carleton University as one of the wonders of modern family planning. My late wife announced that she was five months pregnant uh... we were destitute

i had to get a job uh... by history advisor said why no i got is going to get a job as the head of parliamentary research which was kind of uh... it's funded by the library parliament to do policy research for the opposition as the opposite at that time the opposition were the Progressive Conservative Party under Robert Stanfield. So I went for an interview and the guy said, why do you want to work for the Progressive Conservative Party?

And I'd never cast a consistent vote in my life at that time. I wanted to be a professor. I wanted to be an academic. And I said, well, you know, I really don't give a shit about the Progressive Conservative Party, but I care deeply about parliamentary democracy. And the foundation of a strong parliamentary democracy is a healthy, vibrant opposition. And the extent that I could help you kick the shit out

of the Liberal Party and the government, I'd be happy to do it. And he hired me. And just one thing led to another. By the time I was 25, I was the National Campaign Secretary of the Progressive Conservative Party. And by the time I was 27, twenty five as a national campaign secretary of the progress conservative party and by the time i twenty seven i started decimal research which is really the first

public affairs research company that focused on politics in the country okay very very cool now you also went to uh... work for the republican party no i'd my first partner was dick worthland okay uh... and dick worth one his came to fame when i met him was he was the pollster for the governor of california was ronald reagan

and by the time we started decimal nineteen seventy nine he was working the nineteen eighty presidential election and he went from being my partner to the polls to the president united states and didn't have much interest in uh... in canada, understandably. And myself and two other guys bought him and Foster Advertising, we put up the money to start Decima out in 1981.

Okay. So to be specific, in 1984, there's a federal election in this country and the Progressive Conservative Party of Canada led by Brian Mulroney, the late Brian Mulroney. What role exactly did you play in that election? Well, I had done federally both the 1979 and 1980 election, won the 1979 election, lost the 1980 line. One of the headlines goes, Alan Gregg goes from whiz kid to was kid.

So it was a little humiliating, but I did the 1981 provincial election that restated Bill Davis back into majority seat and was a great supporter of Joe Clark. I mean, I really like Joe Clark as a person. Joe who? Joe Clark, that's exactly the headline in the Ottawa Citizen when he won the leadership

at the age of 38 in 1976. But I came to really like him as a human being, just he was a good guy. I remember going into his office in 1977 and there was a convention that the conservatives were having in Quebec City and they had a leadership review back then, and you know, leadership review, if they vote against you, you're out. And I went to talk to him because I had done studies of delegates about what his situation was there and he said, you know know I'm not really interested in that

it'll be all right. One of the things I really want to do is I want to make sure that new Canadians have a much higher profile in this convention and me thinking at one in the same time you knucklehead I'm here to talk about your existential future here and you might get kicked out of the party and but what a good human being that you're more concerned about the lack of ethnic representation in the Progressive Conservative Party in them in the late night 19th so I was a huge supporter of his 1983 leadership review comes out and he only gets 60%

he says there's going to be a campaign I'm very much behind him and he loses Brian Mulroney wins. Brian Mulroney really doesn't like me. He doesn't like me first because I'm a supporter of Joe Clark. But also he just, and I'm not very fond of him either. Because he's not my kind of guy and I'm not his kind of guy. I mean I do not like hail fellow, well met,

big bustering bullshitters. Well let's describe your persona at the time. I'm looking at a pretty cool cat right now. What are you 72 you said? 73. 73, okay. But I mean I've seen photos of you back then. You didn't really look like a conservative strategist.

No, I had hair down to the middle of my back and earrings and tattoos on my arms and wore red shoes and leather pants. Like it's possible Mulrooney's can't see past that. No, and that's very, very true because that's the kind of guy he was. I mean, he would tell other people, he says, I don't understand that Alan Gray. He could be so much more successful than he is.

You know, if he cut his... Get a haircut. Exactly. And he just thought I was a friggin' weirdo. Right. And so while I think over time, because I was his chief strategist and pollster in 1984, and then again in 1984 and then

again in 1988 he came to respect me and I came to respect him as a politician but neither of us really enjoyed each other's company or thought each other was soulmate. I said one time very uncharitable yes I can live with him but I wouldn't go on a tending vacation with him. Well it's interesting you know he you know glad he could tolerate you for the 84 in the 88 election huge majorities for the Progressive Conservative of Canada yeah and well he had his eye on the ball all the time in fact when the Airbus scandal came I remember Trish Woods who's a reporter following that telling me this and I said Trish that can't be true this guy is just way too Machiavellian to

throw his career away and his legacy away for three hundred and seventy five thousand dollars and clearly I was wrong so at the time because I'm gonna pull a throw his career away and his legacy away for $375,000. And clearly I was wrong. So at the time, because I'm going to pull a clip from a debate between John Turner and Brian Mulrooney in a moment here, you could probably guess which one, but what were your thoughts back then on negative campaigning and have they evolved since the 80s?

Well, yeah, they have. We were one of the first to really start negative campaign and I don't know if you can get to 1993 where I Yeah, of course. Just destroyed a national institution. Going a little chronological here, but yeah. But yeah, because I mean, the reason is, is cynicism rose and it was starting to rise

really in the early 1980s. The trust in government was going, trust in politicians was going down and down and down and so if you say my guy is a really good guy that doesn't have as much credibility is saying their guy is a crook and so negative uh... advertising not only is usually more effective because it communications is clear comprehension of what is being said

is more uh... understood it's also more credible because it's going to people's negative instincts that said it's toxic and having been a pioneer in this area I also gave the speech to the Carlton journalism organization saying that you know look if I was McDonald's I could get market share from Burger King by saying they have botulism and burger king could probably get market share back from me by saying uh... that mcdonald's uh... promotes e-coli in their things

and it would work short term but over time what would happen is that no one would eat a hamburger again and that's what we're doing in politics the more we go after the the enemy the more we degrade the the space the more we degrade the space the more cynical the electorate becomes and the less receptive they become to a positive argument in a positive message okay let me play a little clip here so you'll hear in the headphones just about 90 seconds from a debate sure I happen to believe that you've sold us out I happen to believe that you've sold us out. I happen to believe that once you...

Mr. Turner, just one second. Once any nation... You do not have a monopoly on patriotism. And I resent the fact that your implication that only you were a Canadian. I want to tell you that I come from a Canadian family and I love Canada. And that's why I did it. To promote prosperity. And don't you impugn my motives.

Once any country yields its economic levers. Don't you impugn my motives or anyone else's. Once a country yields its economic levers. Once a, to promote prosperity, and don't you impugn my motives. Once any country yields its economic levers, once a country yields its investment, once a country yields its energy, once a country yields its agriculture, once a country opens itself up to a subsidy war with the United States in terms of definition, then the political ability of this country to sustain the influence of the United States to remain as an independent nation that is lost forever. Mr. Turner, Mr. Turner, Mr. Turner, I today sir, as a Canadian believe genuinely in what I am doing. I believe it is right for Canada. I believe that in my own modest way I am nation-building because I believe this

benefits Canada and I love Canada. We build a country, east and west and north. We build it on an infrastructure that deliberately resisted the continental pressure of the United States. For 120 years we've done it with one signature of a pen. You've reversed that, thrown us into the north-south influence of the United States and will reduce us, reduce us, I'm sure, to a colony of the United States because when the economic levers go, the political independence is sure to fall. Mr. Turner, with a document that's cancelable on six months notice? Be serious.

Be serious. Cancelable. You're talking about our relationship with the United States. What's that document? Commercial document that's cancelable on six months notice? Commercial document. That document relates to every facet of our life. It's far more important to us than it is to the united states

return far more important please be sure well i am serious i've never been more serious in my life please what are your thoughts listening to that again in the headphones alan greg well first i mean the motion passion i mean you'll see that that uh... that that often but it was a telling time i mean we've done lots of research on uh... presidential debates which been going on as you know since the 1960s they were much less frequent in a sweaty Nixon but but normally they don't make any any difference certainly not in the moment because of confirmation bias

people basically see what they want to see so if you like one mr. a you think mr. a did better and if you like mr. B, they say Mr. B did better. Both this, this, the 1988 campaign and the 1984 campaign had knockout punches that made a huge difference. In 1984, when Brian Mulroney turned to him and said, you sir had an option, when he had, you know, put forward a number of patronage positions. And here, where John Turner by virtue of his passion convinced people that our entire cultural identity our social programs were at risk through the free trade agreement we saw an immediate shift both times that literally the next night in our nightly polling. So to give a little console for the

youngsters listening who don't remember the ladies. I was there, I remember, but still too young to vote actually. But what, tell us about this with the free trade debate and interesting though when I listened to that clip yesterday, thinking about the current state and how those like, you know, our sovereignty seems to be at the greatest threats we face since, I don't know, 1812, okay, before we were even a country. What, when you hear those words, I wonder, Eight, can you tell us a little bit about that moment with free trade and what was happening with the United States of America?

Sure. And how these words kind of apply to 2025 and what's happening now? Well, the conservatives had negotiated a free trade agreement. And, you know, for all of Brian Mulroney's opportun's opportunism i never said you know what we really good brian here is why you introduce uh... goods and service tax

why don't you open up the constitution have a big fight about what the back role in the country why do you have a free trade deal with the united states none of these were things that the population was looking for so this kind of came out of nowhere for most people. And that by and large, the attitude was, yeah, it's probably all right. You got about 65% of the population supporting free trade,

the free trade agreement. And that support was not strong and it wasn't deep. And we also knew from the more qualitative work we had done is that the benefits of free trade were long-term and abstract you know you become more productive and you trade more goods will did we trade a lot today or a little bit i really don't know i don't have a frame of reference where's the liabilities were immediate and tangible we're going to lose our cultural identity will not have any more can con on our on our

music that uh... that our health care system will be in peril. And what John Turner was able to do in that debate is bring those liabilities home. And in no small means because his passion, people said, this guy really worries about this free trade agreement, that this is going to be bad for Canada, it's going to be bad for identity, it's going to be bad for the differences that Canadians continue to husband and hold to this day in two thousand and uh... and and twenty five it was the first time i'd ever seen and i think the first time that that added certainly happen in canada

and only time again where you saw a trend reverse itself twice is that the conservatives went up in the early parts of the campaign they went down after this uh... debate and they were able to recover and win in the nineteen eighty eight what was the bridge bombing attack on uh... john turner john turner to the day he died hated me for that every time he saw me it just he see the the darts coming out of his uh... is i

well i said look i think first this is what happened is that the ground shifted we didn't want to run an excellent on uh... on free trade for that very reason and now it shifted it is the issue and the issue is about these uh... these liabilities and people believe that these liabilities might come to pass because john turner because of his passion and emotions right at the bridge between

support for the liberal party and concern about the north american free trade agreement john John Turner's credibility. So if we want to reverse that we have to bomb the bridge of John Turner's credibility and what we did is we ran negative advertising that said this guy is saying this not because he believes he's saying because he's a crass politician and he wants to scare the shit out of you and get elected. That's the full extent of his emotion. That's the full extent of his motivation. Don't get suckered in. And people said, oh, well, okay, that's probably true.

And everything started to reverse. Yeah, it worked. Yeah, it did. Would you do that same campaign today? No, because I think now, you know, I've got grandchildren and I, someone said, when you look into the abyss, the abyss looks back and uh... you know i actually care more

uh... be there i mean i said one time kind of again very cross i said i'm not immoral but i'm a moral you know my job is on the professional researcher and my job is to bring objective uh... effective strategy and advice to my clients uh... to let them win and that's the full extent of my obligation.

I don't believe that anymore. I think that if you enter public life, you have responsibility for the public good. Yeah, so back then, if we make the bio pic about all this, you're the bad guy in the bio pic. Well, certainly in 1993, I became the bad guy because I shouldn't have been involved in that campaign at all, I was going through a really bad.

Oh, in 93, okay, so we'll get to 93. So just on our way to 93, so. Oh, in 1988, I was going through a really... Oh, ninety-three. Okay, so we'll get to ninety-three. So, just on our way to ninety-three. So... Oh, in 1988, I was the big hero. No, I know. Because I brought back. But I mean, the movie we watched in 2025, I feel like your character would be the, the soulless, like, anything-to-get-elected guy.

A little bit. A little bit kind of a crass guy, you know, who's out for himself, got a big ego. Right. He's doing television, he's on the cover of magazines the big thing they do they can take a wall street now and all this you know these look at the music scene in the 80s with hair bands and like excess and oh yeah goodness gracious Reagan times okay so I do want to ask you about the 93 election didn't go quite as well as 88 election and but on our way there though what was

your role in the 1992 Canadian referendum? Well again, a very, very disappointing activity there, that we set up a big committee that was multi-partisan. I mean everyone who was sitting around, this is the Charlottetown Accord, and Meach Lake previous uh... to that every political leader was for all the political parties

were for union movement was uh... was for it and uh... you know i did the polling the nightly polling and it was uh... it was a big agreement that i think sixteen sections or something if you look at each of the section separately in majority majority of Canadians agreed with it. They wanted an elected senate in Alberta, they wanted a distinct society in Quebec. But then again, and I was going through some bad times of myself personally, my dad had

died, my wife had been diagnosed with cancer, my best friend had died all within 18 months. And we did these, and I hadn't been doing focus groups, normally I would do focus groups kind of once a week at least to get that kind of real feedback loop to the electorate. And we did these focus groups and I remember going around and saying, you know, what do you guys know about this referendum that is happening? And some say, well I think we're gonna get two senates,

and they didn't know anything about it. we're gonna get two senate submitted or anything about it was a hurry to vote and they found one against i'm voting against a vote against and so why are you voting against is because those bastards want it so bad and this was the first real indication of you know an electorate that rejecting their political leaders by them advancing and putting forward something that the electorate thought

was not only just not for them un but unimportant compared to the other things. 1992 you got inflation is raging, unemployment. You remember James Caravelle, it's the economy stupid, you know, and there was the in the population now was back in the late 70s and in the mid 80s. They saw problems but they saw these things as aberrations. Now they're saying, this may be real. Progress may not be normal. The next house may not be bigger. The next car may not be fatter.

The next paycheck may not be fatter. And I'm worried now. And these guys are dancing in the graveyard. Now I said we're going to get to 1993. But first we're going to cover some some ground we skipped over because I am dear friends with Rob Pruse. Do you know Rob Pruse? He was the keyboardist with the spoons. Okay for sure. Okay. Very young when he was with the spoons because he was a teenage prodigy. Too young to play in the clubs he was performing in

but that's another story for another day. But he has memories of playing a PC rally and maybe it was 84, 85, and he has no idea what it was for, because I had him over here Monday, we did an episode of Toast with Bruce and Bob O'Lett, and I was trying to pick his brain on this because I knew you were coming over. He says he didn't care about politics,

he has no idea what he was supporting or what he was involved in, he doesn't remember getting any money, and we're here to find out, do you have any memory of what the spoons did for the conservative PC party in the mid-80s? Well, and I vaguely remember that, and remember quite distinctly in Quebec City even earlier than that Dug dug in the slugs from vancouver course playing but the same you have to understand it you have to you have to understand and uh... today is that back then the progressive conservative party was truly a

progressive conservative party who is like it is today and they were the p man something it when that's right and print true progressive center-left did not vilify them in fact the single biggest voting block for the uh... not all in nineteen eighties was liberal pc switchers and most people could be identified as either red tories as they were economically conservative and socially uh... liberal or blue liberals which is exactly the same thing right there wasn't much difference between paul martin and uh... brian moore they are basically the same same human beings So the notion of a hip band like the spoons or

dug in the slugs going to a convention wouldn't be as anathema as it would be now saying who want to associate myself with these kinds of things. Right, because now you need Kid Rock or something. No, no, no. Because it's different times. No, very different parties. So there wasn't that same kind of, you know, these guys are inherently evil therefore I want nothing to do with them and not to be associated with them. Do you remember any specifics at all? I know we're going back a long time about you, like Mike, you know, a million things going on with music and this and that, but which, by the way,

we're gonna get to the music stuff. I can't believe I haven't got to it and we're like 45 minutes into this chat. But do you have any specifics at all? Just that I'll cut this out and play it for Rob when he's back next month for Toast. But like, was it possibly like some kind of a fundraiser for Mulrooney's campaign or something? Any memory at all? It probably was a party convention which they would hold every year and it was a party

convention that there was a big element of partying and it was also a different time you know drinking was smoking was much more prevalent and it was just, it was fun and the Spoons were a hip young band and one of the things that I always tried to push the conservatists, right, is to tell them that, you know, your floor is way higher than the other guys, that your base is much stronger,

but your ceiling is way lower. You got hardly any room to grow and you've got to start getting constituents that are not embracing you right now and young people were among them. And I have this sense that the spoons would do anything if there was a paycheck at the end of the day. And I'm only saying that because I'm thinking of the thrifty, was it stitches or thrifties? Stitches, right? The stitches ad, there was Maxel, the cassette tapes.

But the spoons were kind of there. They were like on board with selling out before it was popular for rock bands to sell out. I think Mick Jagger took notes maybe, but. But Neil Young said, you know, I'm not giving them my brand because I don't want their brand. Ain't singing for Pepsi. No, ain't singing for Coke.

And when I had tickets to see him at Budweiser stage, which he actually ended up canceling, but he had a rule that they couldn't call it that maybe on like, you can't call it Budweiser stage which actually ended up canceling but he had a rule that they they couldn't call it that maybe on that you can't call it Budweiser stage because he's not singing for Budweiser either and they the beers that were sold couldn't be the typical Budweiser beers or something like he takes and he's been on like that right from the very start and do you have a relationship of Neil Young no I've never I've never met him ever met a cool guy I took my kids to see him on the plains of Abraham in the Quebec music city in that they didn't know Neil Young

From from Adam and his band was all of Willie Nelson's kids. Oh, yeah He played for about an hour and a half Maybe nine songs didn't sing one did not speak one word to the audience My son at the time was 32, came over to me after about three minutes and leaned over and he says, this guy plays like a motherfucker. And I said, it wasn't Kurt Cobain who started grunge, my son. It was this guy, Godfather grunge. And the guitar playing was just absolutely crazy. How good it was. No, I'm a big fan. A big, big fan. absolutely. And yeah, I didn't get to, I've seen him before,

but I was really looking forward to seeing him this past summer and he canceled some dates because he needed to recharge his batteries. Yeah. Not a young man anymore. No, that's for sure. Not a young man, but okay, so that's good. I got my spoons update.

I'm gonna give you some gifts for being here. We're gonna cover 93 and then I'm gonna play a song and have a conversation with you. I've wanted to give you some gifts for being here. We're going to cover 93 and then I'm going to play a song and have a conversation with you. I've wanted to have for a long time actually. But what am I giving you Alan? You're a lucky man because I have, I feel like Monty Hall now, fresh craft beer. Excellent. Great Lakes Brewery.

They brewed it right here in Southern Etobicoke. Delicious. You'll love it. You'll take some home with you. Palma Pasta sent over a lasagna. Their lasagna is, I mean, all their food is great, but this lasagna is next level, man. You'll you've never had store bought lasagna like this. I've got one in the freezer for you.

You're a great Canadian. Great Canadian. Taking care of you with the lasagna, taking care of you with the fresh craft beer. Ridley funeral home. Whoa. They've sent over. Yeah. Well, it's, it's handy for you. It's to you know, keep it's handy to have a Measuring tape so Alan Gregg that's courtesy of Ridley funeral home and the funeral director there Brad Jones has a fantastic podcast called life's undertaking which I And we'll talk more about podcasting at the end of this convo

I said I'd come back to Jesse Hirsch and I will, but that's a great podcast to listen to. We record every two weeks and it's called Life's Undertaking from Ridley Funeral Home. Need a couple of quick more hits here. One here is to give you a piece of advice that if you have a drawer full of old cables, old electronics, maybe you have old laptops from the early nineties, you haven't booted up in 20 years, don't throw that in the garbage because the chemicals end up in our landfill go to recycle my electronics dot ca Put in your postal code and find out where you can drop it off to be properly recycled

So thank you to recycle my electronics dot ca for your support And it is my absolute pleasure to welcome the newest Toronto mic'd partner And it is my absolute pleasure to welcome the newest Toronto mic'd partner, it's Fusion Corp Developments Inc. And I'll have more to say about its founder and CEO, Nick Ienis, in the next couple of weeks. But for now, I just want to say welcome to the TMU Fusion Corp Developments Inc. and Nick Ienis, which is a fun name to say. Nick Ienis.

All right, 1993. I need ease which is a fun name to say Nick I need ease all right 1993 and then I'm gonna play a song what happened man what happened for the 93 election well the shortest answer is basically Canadians rereached to conclusion they had reached a couple years earlier which is conservative government was bad government they gave that the benefit of the doubt for a little while when Kim Campbell came on the scene Kim Kim Campbell was an exciting politician. I mean she was single woman, spoke her own mind, so much so that she could not follow the script and took what was an early lead in the pre-rit period and basically reduced it down to two

seats. I was blamed for a lot of what was going on. I took on first way more responsibility pre-written period and basically uh... reduced it down to uh... two seats uh... i was blamed for a lot of what was going going on i took on first way more responsibility i sure i was just doing being the pollster i was i've been and developing the strategy i was doing all the advertising all the communications and and everything else in that we got about twenty one points behind

and uh... we said look we gotta go negative here and the weak link in their chain is Jean-Claude Chien. A lot of people have doubts about whether he's a world leader and whether he's up for the job and whether they really want a guy like him to represent them and so we did these streeters that were intersperse with pictures of him. Stop there for one second. Assume that I am really venal and I am really stupid. Even if you accept those two things, you cannot say, I've sat down and said,

you're 21 points behind, I know what we should do, we should make fun of his face. That was not our strategy. The strategy was to draw attention to his lack of leadership skills. The liberals to their credit immediately seized on the contrary argument that we're making fun of his face. But the ad did, pardon me, I do remember this at this point I'm now able to vote 1993. Right. First time I got to vote by the way, 1993 federal election. But

I do remember the ad was ridiculing his facial deformity. No, it wasn't because it's out of stock footage. I came home, I quit the campaign that day. When they pulled those ads, I said, you know what, I got way more credit than I deserved when things were going well. Now I'm getting way more shit. That's how it works. Then I deserve when things are going crappy, you're on your own. I quit. And I went home and I remember my wife saying to me, did you really do that? Did you produce an ad that made fun of John Cratchan's face? And sitting on the counter was a Globe and Mail and on one side of the fold was

their picture of John Cratchan on the other side of the fold was their picture of Jean Chrétien, on the other side of the fold was the picture we used in the advertisement and I said look at these pictures, they're exactly the same, that's the way he looks, we're not making fun of his face. So there was no, it was a picture of him, there was no text on the screen or words from a voice over person. Yeah there was, behind it was what we called streeters, which is where you took people on the street

and you edited their comments to reinforce your message. And it had people saying, you know, I just don't think he's a world leader. I would be embarrassed if he was representing us at the United Nations or, you know. You obviously approved this ad. Yes, and tested them, and tested them in focus groups with no one saying, why are you making fun of that guy's face?

Not a person said that. Well you should have called me, I would have given you some good advice Alan. Because seeing the photo, and you're right, that's how he looks. But Mike, I say that is the genius of the liberal response. Post-Hoke, you could absolutely make the case that we're making fun of his face because his face was what it was. I felt it at the time. But no, even as much as I was a mercenary, I would

never ever do that. In fact, I knew Jean-Claude Jan and liked Jean-Claude Jan as we knew all of the leaders. I mean, there wasn't that kind of terrible, you know, you're my enemy ethos that you you see now. I mean, my best friends on Parliament Hill when I was working there were journalists, members of the New Democratic Party. My partners were both liberals who had worked for Don Jameson and Minister of Northern Affairs and I golfed with them for 20 years after the fact and it was a different environment. And it was kind of nice, I felt it was maybe you said off the top, I actually wrote it down, nostalgic old fart, but it felt good to have Kretche and kind of nice, I felt it was maybe, you said off the top, I actually wrote it down, okay, nostalgic old fart, but it felt good to have

Kretchen kind of having a moment in the last couple of weeks speaking up for this country, and that he sounds so sharp. 91 years old. 91 years old, wrote a great op-ed in the Globe saying, this is nonsense and don't be strong. And he came on Vassie's show on CTV, I saw some footage of him kind of revisiting these points and sounded good. I said to Charlie I said Throw that hat in the ring John

It's a have one more run one more kick of the can well and while I say in the 1993 election the electorates had Significant doubts usually leader of the opposition at this point But once he became the the prime minister he became quite popular because that little guy from Schoenigen the the prime minister he became quite popular because that little guy from chauvin again again resonated with an election was increasingly becoming you know dubious about the greatness of political leaders because he was just a normal guy absolutely and he had he yeah john ketchum wins a big majority and he do that again but so that that day you quit the campaign when they pulled that ad.

Not just the campaign, I quit partisan politics. Okay, that was it for you, 1993. Yeah, I volunteered to help two friends in their elections, Gordon Campbell out in BC, he was a contemporary, and John Tory in the city of Toronto, who was again a great friend and just a tremendous human being. I shouldn't speak in the past tense. No, he's still hanging around. I still see him.

I kind of thought he might. I thought maybe he'd disappear or whatever, but he's still going to things and he's so I since John Tory's name came up a couple of things here. One is do you think he runs for to be a progressive conservative MP in the upcoming provincial election? I don't know. If you ask… Any insight into this? You talked to him lately?

If you asked me earlier, of all the people you've met throughout your career, where would you put John Tory in terms of the likelihood of having an affair with someone who was 35 years his junior and hiding it from others? And right at the bottom of the list every person i know more likely to do so out of care by the book tory and get know he was because he i'd never worked with anyone who worked harder who was more ethical uh... who's driven more by public service i mean this guy grew up with a silver spoon in his mouth three generations of torres and uh... you know, he

went to public school. And then he went to the Toronto school, you know, where you get in by merit. Not. And you know, he again, he made a mistake. And I know that he's horribly humiliated by that, the mistake that he's made, and probably believes that he'll never be forgiven. Do you think though he's done with public life? I hope not because I say I've worked with few people who contribute more to public life than John Torrance. There are definitely

this chatter that he's going to run in this upcoming progressive conservative provincial election. Hard to imagine him being subservient to Doug Ford but we'll see. We'll see okay and you're. There was no stranger words I heard than John Torrey sex scandal. And Ed Kenan comes on the show every week, every quarter. So we cover lots of stuff, this kind of stuff every single quarter for we go about two hours every three months at Kenan in the basement here and as the details come

out it's it sounds like it's a bit of a it was a mistake and and impress that he resigned because i do know that there are uh... political leaders now with such a scandal that would just keep going like that to two words bill clinton no that's not for sure right in fact with hindsight given the cynicism the people have and in the lack of trust and the lack of faith that they have in politicians He could have just toughed it out. Remember who was his predecessor as mayor was Rob Ford and Rob Rob You know, where do I begin right? But it

Cheese, okay But as you dig into the detail it sounds okay So he separate he is separated from his wife Although it's not public and his wife is living a life in Florida. I believe well, John Torrey's here so there's that and the pandemic Fucked a lot of us up and changed a lot of things. So this error in judgment Which was a mistake and I'm glad he chose to resign that shows some honor there but you can understand how it happened

yes in that particular very well do you think John Tory would ever come on Toronto mic for a chat interesting question further to our earlier parts of the conversation to be well advised to very well advised to well would you advise him to do you ever have any conversations with him i think he's embarrassed to talk to me we have is feeling some shame and and how it all ended for him okay but if you do talk to him those your first words of cake and in toronto

makes basement john will set out about it i don't have any like what i don't have this feeling of the even i talk to people different political stripes i don't have this your inhuman garbage that you, as somebody who reported to you, a city hall staffer that you would have an inappropriate relationship with her, your, oh I feel disgust for you. I don't have this wiring. I want to have a conversation with this human being who made a mistake. And I want to talk to him.

And I think most people are prepared. If someone, you know, what is it, Bernie Taupin said, you know, sorry seems to be the hardest word. There's nothing that you can do to gather I think most people are prepared. If someone, what is it, Bernie Taupin said, sorry seems to be the hardest word. There's nothing that you can do to gather more ground when you've made a mistake than just to apologize and to show some contrition. You know, we're all human beings in this world, right? So we all make mistakes.

Okay, okay, here's a jam for you right here. Don't believe in you are just to know how I feel It's not as easy as calling out your name When I'm down, it's not a matter for long, alright It ain't much better than drinking and looking, but You know I'm tired of lake, American exit to the Northland I'm on the lake, American exit to my homeland I'm on the lake, American exit to my last dance, they keep calling out my name, I shall it dance. With all this rhetoric about Trump annexing this wonderful nation of ours, Canada, I feel like American Exit is an appropriate song and this brings us back to the Tragically Hip EP and this brings us to the story of Alan Gregg and FOTM Jake Gold and the Tragically Hip. We all watched the Prime

documentary recently. Did you watch it Alan? Yes. What did you think of the Prime documentary series on the Tragically Hip? We was so so proud of mike downing uh... boards uh... board brother in these legitimate film a crime we actually got his first job in uh... at the cbc uh... but it's very hard for him because i mean part of the story is you know it is tragic

pardon the pun and emotional and sad but also it's very candid and he shows that, you know, Gord made a lot of mistakes and mistakes that not only hurt the band's career but hurt his friends in the band and it wasn't easy for Mike to have that kind of level of honesty. And anyway, I was just very, very proud of them. And I just thought it was a really good piece of film as well. Anyone who looks documentary film would enjoy this, whether they know anything about the Tragically Up or not. Agreed on all counts, all counts.

And I say that as a fan of the band since I heard Blow It High Doe on Q107 back in 89, I guess it was. Okay, so part of that documentary series, we see footage from Venture, I heard Blow It High Doe on Q107 back in 89, I guess it was. So part of that documentary series, we see footage from Venture, I believe, a CBC show. Jake and I both at 220 smoking cigarettes. So you're in, and we can see, you know, we see Jake with the look he had at the time.

And it's like, oh, I didn't, because, you know, some of us don't really see a lot of Jake until Canadian Idol. Right. Right. And then we're like, we see you and we see you guys and you're, you're kind of, you got this band from Kingston, Ontario, and this EP exists in the world, but you're trying to get a distribution date, like a record deal. And maybe let's hear from you less from me. People can watch the documentary, but how did you meet Jake Gold and what is

the story there with the Tragically Hip and your, because I'm trying to understand how this coexists concurrently with your conservative strategist pollster career. Like it seems like we got you to 93 before you quit, right? But this, we're in the late 80s here. So let's hear from you. I need the real story here, Alan.

Well, I always loved music. I mean, you know, I grew up, as I say, in the, in the prairies in the 50s and 60s. At that time, other kids for their birthday, they wanted a Davy Crockett hat. I wanted a Fats Domino record. And I had a really hip dad. My father was a very cool guy, loved music, was a zoot zooter, brought music from Big Pink for me. He said, you might like this. When I was in grade 12, he knew more about what was happening in the music scene. Anyway, so music was always part of my life. I got a guitar when I was six years old.

Took me maybe 10 years to learn how to tune it. I became clear that my ambition was far greater than my talent. So I started managing bands while I was in high school. And then got very, very serious about academe and didn't really put that behind me, except there was a guy who I went to high school with who continued to want to become a recording store.

And I tried to help him. I got an executive producer record with Randy Backman with him. And we put it out on the- That's FOTM Randy Backman, I just wanna tell you. There you go. We put it out on the West Coast, nothing happened. they a lot of people who are in the business that you got to bring him to Toronto and do a showcase and get him signed by a real

label you can't put it out on your own little bullshit label and so I guess a lot you know I love music and I think I know a lot about what is good music and bad music but I have no idea how to put on a showcase show. And so I talked to another high school friend, a guy called Earl Seymour, who's a saxophonist for Blood, Sweat and Tears at the time. And he said, I got a young guy, his name's Jake Gold, really good in lights and production, he's very capable,

and I'll get you in touch with him, and he can help you put on this showcase. So we put on the showcase at the Diamond Club, Phoenix. Now the Phoenix, yeah. And it was brilliant in terms of the production, the lights, the sound. We had everyone in the music industry out there and nothing happened. No one wanted to sign this band. And afterwards I went to Jake and said,

look I really appreciate what you did, it was great. He said, how much do I owe you? And he said, nothing. I said, well what do you mean nothing? You worked your ass off for the last two months. He says, no, he says, I did it just to get an opportunity to work with you. This point in time I was posted to the Prime Minister.

I mean I had a big profile, I'd been in the cover of magazines, Toronto Life and what have you. So he knew who I was, I wasn't just some kind of grifter who had money to give him to do this. So I said, well, come to my house and we'll talk. And he was in a relationship, a management relationship with another guy who he didn't like and he was clearly junior.

I said, look, leave him. I'll give you enough money to have an office and a salary for a year. You do all the operations, all the upfront stuff and I'll help you with strategy and all the creative stuff. And it was really the company was called Jacob J. Gold and Associates. I was just the associate because I had my business, Decima Research and all these other sorts of things. And he had an artist already that he had signed uh... new regime

to uh... was r c a records were became a b m g uh... records but the very first band we signed was this band from kingston called the tragically hip hooded at that point i had not written the original song they were covered and playing the manner with did a lot of good door stuff uh... we brought them up i got in tape from a friend believe it or not

and was playing it for another guy who's a radio consultant he says there's something there and so i called on jake and said let's get these guys up to do a show for us they came up place called larry's hideaway course i'd just uh... talked i'd just moderated a panel for gary tops new bowl really delighted larry's i'd just uh... talked i'd just moderated a panel for gary tops new bowl really delighted leary's i'd wait out of there that right across the street and i'd for sure and they open for uh... rolling stone cover band and uh... it was just

incendiary i mean not only was gordon in mesmerizing but the band was so good you know it's it's the martin and malcolm gladwell thing you know if you got put your ten thousand hours and and these guys had and they've been as the documentary show they've been playing since they were fourteen fifteen years old and uh... we signed that night we can the tavern restaurant and uh...

signed into a management deal and then later on i sat them down as a look we knew one of two things we can just be your managers in which instance will take twenty percent uh... uh... everything you make you can sign a deal with us and we will be management publishing company in record company which is a woman invest in you and uh... they said most of the latter and so we signed a deal uh...

and this this which is playing last american exit one of six songs off a little p p the couldn't get the band side we have them come uh... every friday uh... in the last friday of the month the hotel as a bella and the crowds were lining up out outside the street on the block after about three or four months we would bring guys like steve anthony and gary slade and others to see the back and they also they're really good but you know their barbara

the kind of and they were kind of a rolling stone cloned and they had written boots or, but you know, they're a bar man. They're kind of, and they were kind of like a Rolling Stone clone band. They hadn't written boots or hearts or, you know, uh, but even that song I just played, which they wrote, yes. Like maybe it's my bias because I did buy up to here, like the day after I heard blow it high dough and I loved every freaking song and up to here and then forever more big hip fan, obviously perfect age, you know, but that to me sounds like a great fucking song it is and it holds up it still is but I couldn't

we couldn't get the band signed literally that we made that record because the band had never been in the rec recording studio and a good friend of mine sin Kessler owned recording studios at this time he basically said I'll give you a week's worth of work both both only five grand, and we got Ken Greer, who was lead guitar player for Tom Cochran's band at the time, Red Ryder, who wanted to be a producer to work with them, and when we went in there, we said, look, this is you learning how to record music.

If it's no good, we're gonna throw it in the garbage can, and it'll be a good experience for you. If it's good, we'll talk about what we're doing then so they finished it we went this is very very good and so we went to RCA records where Jake had his relationship with and we played it for the guy who's the A&R guy and he says I like it I'd like to do a deal I'd like to license it for you how much advance would you like and we said nothing so what do you mean nothing so we don't we you to dance we paid for it all already but what would we want to want to guarantee that you'll spend twenty five thousand dollars

marketing and guess what else you will not give this record to pop radio you only give it out more into the rock radio this was the pop of stations wanted to they won't want it and if they do ask for it Then we're in the driver's seat aren't we and tell the album oriented rock stations are only 19 at the time only

They are getting this this is they would be the only radio stations who would understand and lo and behold small town bring down got some radio play and We got friends of ours again to do a video at the manor and it was again quite opportunistic. It was Frosh Week at Queens so the place was jammed and everyone was drunk out of their head so it looked like they were a massive band already even though they kind of weren't.

And we only sold 10,000 of those records and the new guy who took over as the head of A&R at what was then BMG Records wouldn't sign them. He said, I don't get them, I think they really should be an alt country band like Blue Rodeo. Are you kidding me, are you nuts? And so we took another two years to get them signed to MCA Records, which we toured them all over the place

and bought promo from American radio stations, took them to college music journal festivals, and they worked and worked and worked and worked and worked. And finally, a guy called Bruce Dickinson at MCA Records in New York signed them. What a story, you know? And I mean, I'm thinking of that EP now, which again, I bought up to hear first and then I had to go back. I do this with Nirvana too.

I bought Nevermind first and then I picked up Bleach and I'm like, where was I? Like, how did I miss all this? Well, VeeVee only sold 10,000 to them. It's sold over a million copies since. Yeah, I guess that's typical, right? It happened to Green Day. It happens to a lot of brands. It's like, oh, I bought Dookie and then I realized, oh, there's something before that. But okay, there should be, I mean, take a note, Rob and Bob, we're going to do a toast about the releases you didn't discover until after the breakthrough, if should be, I mean, take a note, Rob and Bob, we're gonna do a toast about the releases you didn't discover till after the breakthrough, if you will. But like,

Highway Girls on this thing, Evelyn, like this, it's pretty good EP actually. But so MCA gave you a deal. Is that a US deal? Yes, it was a US deal. And again, it was, and they were really behind the band. And we went to Arden Studios in Memphis, Don Smith, who had been Tom Petty's engineer, and he graduated to the, what was the band that Tom Petty had with? Heartbreakers? No, we had the Heartbreakers, but this was Bob Dylan. Oh, yeah, of course.

Take Handle with Care, the... Roy Orbison. Yeah, Traveling Wilburys. Traveling Wilburys. Traveling Wilburys. Traveling Wilburys. And he had, we just finished their record and really good guy, you know, he didn't want to put his hands too far on the scale.

Knew the band. And they had been, as I say, working forever about this, but wrote songs like, I hadn't heard 38 years old, Never Kissed a Girl. and they had been, as I say, working forever about this, but wrote songs like I hadn't heard, 38 years old, Never Kissed a Girl. And just like, it was like what? Because we had them kind of pigeonholed as a kind of a rock band too. And I remember Gord Sinclair saying,

you know, we're not the cult, we're way more diverse than that. And they heard the record up to here. The MCA United States really liked it. We knew that New Orleans is Sinking was the hit, but we were so confident that it would do well. We wanted to warm them up with Blow at High Doe. Blow at High Doe went top 10 album oriented rock radio

in the states, very well in college radio. Put out New Orleans is thinking went top ten album oriented rock radio but we didn't sell any records why not because again we I remember I had actually had a relationship at this point in time with Viacom we went to MTV we had made the the videos first they made a mistake I mean I made the the the small town bring down and last American exit videos for them. By this time, they're recording artists. They're saying, we want to make our own video.

And so the video for Blow It High Dole is just vomit. I mean, it's just a whole bunch of incomprehensible images that came literally out of their mouths was wanted. images that came literally out of their mouth. So MTV, we went to see the John Sears who was running MTV at the time, and he says they're just not an MTV band. I said, well what do you mean they're not an MTV band? If we gave you the best video that you ever had in your life, you say you wouldn't play? He says, no I wouldn't. They're just not an MTV band. And again, this is when MTV was so important. But does this have anything to do with the fact that they're Canadian? That they're Canadian out there? I mean, I wrote a memo earlier on saying that it's a tragic hit for the boys next door.

That that's your positioning. But it's only because this big hit we're talking about is literally called New Orleans is Sinking. That sounds as American as anything. And I mean, there's a song on that album which has, you mentioned Blue Road to You earlier, but Boots or Hearts is kind of a country song. It is. And it's, to me, it sounds, that could be an American band, and we got this eccentric, this charismatic lead singer

who is Michael Stipe-esque. Well, see, they're getting album-oriented rock radio. No video at all. I'm mad all these decades later, Alan. MCA would not make a video of new of New Orleans is sinking we had to make it got a guy from Calgary to make it and put it because they were they were finished with the record it just was not selling and they MTV was not going to do

anything for it so again we had to put up the money for that then you know album number two comes road apples and we're hearing you know these infamous words no career breaking hit single and it was dead on arrival they would not MCA states would not put make out any videos again we had even little bones know we made that ourselves and by this time you know we were just saying these guys have given up on us and MCA at that time they had Tom Petty in their roster but no other rock bands it was

all Bobby Brown and all kinds of yeah they were more R&B yes yeah and so country too I feel yes you're very strong country. They had great... But not rock... Not rock at all. And we knew they'd just given up on the band. They'd sent their entire crew in advance of Road Apples coming out to Vancouver to see the band play in a hockey arena. I can't remember where it was. It wasn't the Coliseum, but it was a big, big venue. They charted a plane and really excited, and then this no career-breaking hit sings. And this,'s a lot of the Canadian stuff did come out

because they say stuff like you know 50 mission cap what what is that about who is Bill Burrilko yeah but that's fully completely right this is a no I think 50 mission cap is on this isn't it I don't think so isn't it I don't think so I got a habit here I should just read i think i'm i bring what i know i just never have been on uh... fully completely but uh... but your your hundreds of right because there were a lot of like what i call it the cordelia fitters green yeah these are beautiful song that's it was green and they did not understand at all which i thought this is a rock band

anyway so long time running is on the long time one way i took this to chicago and in focus groups a long time running was a hit there's no question but again i could not get that wedding song you know really yeah it literally i mean i did these focus groups connie it came with me and we did them in the bed overwhelming response wrote a memo to uh... mc a they didn't care

so we didn't get it is better for us if you don't understand but maybe not better for you and jake that's right that's right so is interested in the i think the thing that uh... a lot of people don't understand it wasn't fully documented in the documentary is there were a lot of times where their career was stalled stalled very badly right uh... sometimes by their own doing again i'll never forget i think it was uh... just before uh... note just as uh... up to here

came out i got a call from them they were in portland uh... oregon and gordon claire is on the phone he says uh... we've had a bad meeting and that we're not gonna play at uh... the record store as well why don't you can play at the records so well we don't think it's kind of consistent with who we are and who we want to be. And I said, well, that's, let me tell you something here.

The promo guy in the business thinks you should do it. The guy who works retail thinks you should do it. They're going to think you're assholes if you don't do it. Right. And he says, well, let me put Gord on on so he puts downy on down He could always get me and he said he says If that's the price of not being successful, then we're prepared to pay it. We're not doing this gig And I said, it's your career not mine, you know, but you're making a huge mistake That story jives. Yeah the story in the documentary the Sam the record and the records towers

This was way before that. Way, way, way before that. And it's like, of course, that makes me just like the band more, right? That they had this code, this integrity, this ethical... Yeah, no, the towers record Sam the Record Man thing, they were a big band by then. They could afford to walk with it. These guys had nothing. Right, right.

This was, they were on their first tour of the United States. They were playing tiny venues. You know who opened for them in Long Beach? Is Nirvana. Wow. But they, you know, I'm never going to again on the West Coast because we were so stupid that we insisted that they be the last band up,

which is the headliner of course. Well, they got on the stage at one o'clock and there was no one left. Right. Well, this is like triumph at the, uh, the big festival or whatever. Anyway, so. You know, Alan, again, you, you're going to

actually, we're going to have to do a sequel because I still have more hip stuff. I knew I could do it easily. 90 minutes on the tragically hip, but I've, like, I have, you know, 1600 episodes in the archive. So I've talked to many, a Canadian, uh, success story that talks about like the moment they

not gave up on the States, but realize they're better to focus here. I'm thinking now of Kim Mitchell. Okay. Right. Kim Mitchell had post Max Webster, he had a US record label and his big song was a go for soda. Right. And they were pushing it on US radio. He had a US record label and his big song was Go for Soda. And they were pushing it on US radio,

but he tells me a story how they also had on the same label Twisted Sister. And the label decided to favor, we're not gonna take it by Twisted Sister over Go for Soda by Kim Mitchell. And basically gave up on Kim Mitchell and he was kind of left to die on the vine and he came back home and realized,

I love playing to Canadians here in vine and he came back home and realized, I love playing to Canadians here in Canada and they seem to love me. And Twisted Sister would be easier to understand. You know, Kim Mitchell was pretty, he was a little bald, terrific guitar player and different. It just didn't fit the mold. But no, listen, first off, it's the risk state and the obvious. I mean, America is, you know, ten times the the size of Canada you got to work ten times as hard you're

band like bare naked ladies had what they called a concentric circle strategy you know where they said okay we're gonna break Chicago and they work Chicago like a Chicago band and then once they've established an audience there they said okay we're gonna have a concentric circle now a hundred miles from chicago and it went on and on one one of the things that happened to the tragically hip is that first time we sent across the country on the little record all the club owners all the radio guys said jesus these guys are nice

they are we just love having them here the decent human beings are polite they're a funny there everything that we'd ever want in terms of a band coming to our venue. And by the time Road Apples is here, now they're playing big venues, and they've got a guitar tech and they've got a drum tech, and they've got a sound man and they've got a light man,

and they've got everything. And they go to the club in Toledo that has 250 people and they got a guitar tech, drum tech, a sound man, a light man and the guys who were owning the club in Toledo are going, who are these fucking pussies? Who do they think they are? Little dipshits. And that kind of, and it was hard to go from playing you know Massey Hall to a little club in Toledo where the people who owned it thought you were pretentious because you had all of this gear and all this equipment and all this you know all this other stuff so it was hard for them that all said you know they go out of their way but it's true is that they could

go to Austin Texas they could go to Boston they could go to LA and they would play the top clubs in all those markets throughout their career. It's interesting you brought up Barenake Ladies I also quite like Barenake Ladies who get their start really just kind of camping out in the hallways of CFNY and Brampton. Yeah. But one of the big moments for them that helped them crack the US market, where they'd eventually get a number one Billboard Hot 100 hit, is a friendship with Jason Priestley. So like they leverage their friendship, because Jason was a fan, being a BC guy, and he gets them basically they play the peach pit, okay, they get on Beverly Hills 90210.

And then this really does help with some success like the old apartment and stuff. They have some top 40 success, but it really spins out of this exposure on Beverly Hills 90210. I just wonder now, the equivalent I suppose would be Dan Aykroyd from Kingston, Ontario being a huge advocate and fan of this band, this great fucking band by the way, whether they're from Mars or they're from Kingston, the great fucking band. And he gets them, Lorne Michaels agrees that they can be the musical performer on Saturday Night Live.

So are you still, like when do you stop managing the Tragical Hip? Well it was, my wife had died literally the week before. They played on Saturday Night Live. They called me from Texas saying, we'll shut this tour down. I said, no, my wife wouldn't want you to shut the tour down, you keep playing. My son went with them to New York for Saturday Night Live.

But I kind of took a step back when she got sick and we had a big problem with Day for Night. That they brought the record to me and I just said, this isn't finished, you're going back into the studio. And they said, well, it's finished. I said, no it isn't. I said, you got two solid tracks here and the rest is shit. Absolute shit. And again, they put Gordon- Scared is pretty good too. That's about me. know what is missing up to solid tracks here in the rest is shit absolute shit

and began the put gorgia is pretty good to that's about me that is about me word for word you make me scared nice doing business with you it's a focus group it's about alan that's about alan great alan great mind my brains on the walls here just a biography probably my favorite song on that album, actually. No, they wrote it because they were, again, you have to understand, I mean, because I had a career,

and I was very successful at my career, and loved them, and loved what I was doing for them, but what I could do for them was something they believed they should be doing for themselves. Jake is different. They didn't want to organize a tour. They didn't want to do a settlement at the end of the day for them was something they believe they should be doing for themselves jake is different they want to organize a tour they want to settlement at the end of the day for a but i was doing all the strategy i was doing all the creative stuff i was it

and saying this is going to be the single this is going to be the single and at at that point you know they had they've had success they had three records and fully completely was brilliant i mean it really is one of the greatest. And that's where 50 Mission Cap is. It is. Okay, better than me, Mike. What can I say? Well, I was listening to it on the CFNY and Q107.

And so they put Gord on the line again. And he says, this record's finished. And I said, well, your name is on that, not mine. You're going to have to live with it. This will be the absolute apex of your career. It will not go well from here, because this is not sustainable from this record. And he said, Alan, given the choice between you being my manager and being my friend, I'd prefer you were my friend.

And he said it with love, and he, until the day he died, he and I were great friends and real soul mates. But it was, the threat was obvious. I couldn't be both. If I wanted to stay to be his manager, I wasn't gonna be his friend anymore. But how do they separate you and Jake? Aren't you the management trust?

Or like aren't you? Yeah, but Jake, it is very interesting j and jake is just very interesting guy i mean when he started the one he helped me with that that showcase he was very much the junior partner and he had no say in anything does because i was alan greg and he was nobody right and uh... when he got inducted into the hall of fame this this summer i said on the on the video i said he just

he just got smarter and smarter and more confident more confident i don't know how the hell it happened but in and and you know uh... isaiah berlin talks about you know the fox in the hedgehog you know hedgehogs really good at one thing and that's what artist managers normally are right foxes are really good strategy

and jake was hedgehog who all of a sudden developed the mind of the fox and uh... at at this point i said i was going through just terrible terrible times nineteen ninety three ninety four ninety five and uh... i was happy to stay stay back to see my wife died right before they went on saturday night i went eight years i didn't work

looking after my kids. So I stayed friends with the band all the way through. Went to all their weddings, went to their kids' christenings. Still write them to this day, trying to get them back on stage, trying to get them to play live and understand they could be a jam band.

Will they, I mean we had the one performance at the Juno's with Leslie Feist. And I actually had Paul Langlois here in the basement, Jake brought him over a couple of summers ago. And I said, maybe Danny Graves. Like I was just trying to think, no one can replace Gord. You're not replacing him. It's going to be the tragically hip with like, Gastly Zerrin.

But I was thinking Danny Graves, at others that in you know the watchman relationship and everything and danny being a fantastic singer but will the tragically hip ever perform i would love that they would if they could get their heads around that they're not the practically have to be here cousin they're not gonna place cordon you're right in the garden is but it is not just any graves i mean they could do think about this you know sarah harmer

yet common do you think some real slow stuff dallas green right to do the mid-tempo stuff that they get in thoroughly to do blow hide on rep it with robbie baker on the target of the massive and i've told him i i broke both uh... both and robbie's the problem he just does not want to uh... do uh... do any of this and i think he's troubled anyway but i wrote court st cllair and him saying,

why don't you guys get together at the bath house and play Freebird and just see how that feels. Cause they're a jam band. You know? And they, and. The band you talked about, the Doors, I always thought of them. Yeah. Van Morrison and them.

Yeah. And they underappreciated as I said, it didn't get on make it to the final cut on the documentary but i said look they are one of the greatest rhythmical bands in the world maybe not quite as good as a booker t in the m g's little feet or the dave matthews band but i think probably ahead of the rolling stones the ability to bring it up and bring it down, you know, all those riffs

that Jake would go through, that they made those very special by virtue. It's all ad-lib and they didn't rehearse any of that. Okay, so what I've done now is I made the mistake of checking the clock here. So here I'm going to see if I can get a commitment from you live on the recording because I'm not editing a stitch, but could we do a sequel? Like I want to cover a few more spots here, but could I get you back down here? Like how was this for you? It was great. It was a Stitch, but could we do a sequel? Like I want to cover a few more spots here, but could I get you back down here? Like how was this for you? It was great. It was a great, great time. I really enjoyed the conversation. That's not a commitment though. Like would you come back for a second round? My problem is I live in Mexico most of the time.

Oh yeah, that is a problem. Yeah. Okay. What brings you to Toronto today? Besides this Toronto mic appearance? My daughter had her third son. Oh, that's congrats! Came up to be an indulgent grandpa. Okay, that's amazing. But at some point, you might be back in Toronto.

Sure. So, okay, there's the commitment I'm looking for here. That's legally binding, by the way, just so you know here. Done. So because I'm going to cover some quick hits here, because I do have a client who's going to be here for a two o'clock recording, so I don't have unlimited time. And I, we're good.

Like I said, lots of meat on the bones here. You'll come back here. Okay. So one quick note is on the live stream, VP of Sales says, your voice sounds very similar to Rob Baker's. So you could, you and Rob Baker would have similar vocal conversation. I should, well, I should put him on my lap and be a ventriloquist and have him say things You and Rob Baker would have similar vocal conversation. Well, I should put him on my lap and be a ventriloquist and have him say things I want

him to say rather than the things that he says. And Rob, it sounds like Rob is the holdout on this tragically heavy band. He's always been, you know, he's a little bit older than the other guys and his documentary shows was far more established than the other guys as kind of a... Well, his dad was a judge. Oh, listen, all of their parents, you know, Johnny's dad was a heart surgeon, and Gord St. Clair's dad was the Dean of Medicine,

and Paul Langlois' dad was the phys ed coach at the Kingston High School, and Gord Downey's dad was the most successful real estate guy. They came from very good families. I don't mean that just in terms of having money, but just really supportive, good family upbringing. And all but Gord decided to stay there. Yeah. Yeah. Johnny's here now. But yeah. And that was a problem as well.

So well, again, we got a sequel for all my missed stuff here, but could you real quick hits here the song corp yes tell us tell us who is involved what it was and basically why it didn't there's a mistake that yeah you would be quick hit 90 I had say my wife died in 1995 a friend of mine got me this gig as the president of Viacom Canada. Right. And Viacom huge organization with Paramount Studios, Paramount Pictures, MTV, later on NBC and they bought some Canadian assets and they had to set up a Canadian corporation and it was basically just a smoke screen to look like they cared about Canada. And so I kind of did that on a part-time job

and it was gonna end in 2000. 2000, the stock market was crazy, before the dot com bubble. And I said I was missing music. And so I said, well, why don't I put those two things together, so I went out in the markets and raised 33 million dollars, bought the largest independent record company in canada attic records largest

independent uh... publishing company the music publishing company hired a guy who ran the hall distribution operations for polygram records and put it all together and took a public is the song corp and then the dot com bubble broke uh... then uh... nabster came on uh on the scene.

Then it became very clear that the multinational did not want a big independent. They started stealing our distribution deals and the company was bankrupt in 18 months. Yeah, before he passed, obviously, I say that sentence as if I could have him on after he passed away, but Al Mayer was an FOTM as well. Yes.

We had a good, and Molly Johnson too. Yes, we had a good and Molly Johnson to yeah We signed her and she gave me such shit when well, you and I are in the same club then I got shit for Listen to the Molly Johnson episode said she just said you should be ashamed of yourself Oh, you've always been a good human being and what you've done is unconscionable You know, we we all make mistakes you had the best intentions and it ended up being a disaster. Yeah, absolutely. And it's a classic case of hubris, you know, it says, just because you're good at one thing, buddy,

doesn't mean you're good at everything. And there's a good lesson there. Few more notes that came in. One is Jake Gold did hear you were coming on Toronto Mic'd. Hello to Jake, FOTM Jake. Jake, let's get some more members of the Tragically Hip in the basement, shall we? Paul Langwell was amazing.

They're exhausted. And he played live. They're exhausted. We'll give them a little breather here, when they're ready. But he just wrote, I might have a question for Alan and then put a happy face emoji. So no further questions came, but Jake will be listening.

So hello to Jake. How is your relationship today with Jake Gold? See him, kind of talk to him every week. Can see him every time I can. Beautiful, okay. Arlene Bishop, who was just here making her Toronto Mike debut, wrote, hey Mike, Arlene Bishop here,

sending some love and appreciation over to Alan Gregg. Alan was encouraging and supportive back in the early days and it's always meant the world to me. Thank you for doing that, Alan. You made a positive difference in my life. Isn't that nice? You know, we got a lot of kudos for the success of Ian Thornley, of the Watchmen, of Andrew Cash, who we managed, and the Tragic Lipp. But we also managed some terrific artists like Arlene Bishop, you know, who we were never able to take across the finish line, but she just was such a passionate,

genuine, the real deal of her and Blair Packham, who again, I just loved because his lyrics were always so great and crazy. Well, he's the last of the Red Hot Fools, that Blair Packham. Yeah, Blair Packham's a good FOTM too. Hello to Blair. Yesterday, I was texting with him. I'm like, I really need Eric Schenkman from the spin doctors on the show because he's living in Toronto. I'm like, we can get this Eric on the show and Blair did his thing, reached out to Eric. Eric's in the

calendar. He's going to visit next week. Nice. That's the kind of guy Blair Packham is. And yeah, his ex-wife and dear friend, Arlene Bishop came out. She's been diagnosed as an adult with ADHD and on the autism spectrum. Really? And you should really listen to this episode where we talked about the difference it's made in her life. No, I will.

It was only a couple of weeks ago and please listen to Arlene Bishop on Toronto mic, an important episode. And again, quick hits here before I, we got to take a photo in the minus 30 degree tundra out there, which I'm looking forward to. Uh, geez, it's almost like there's a lot here because I want to close with some Jesse Hirsch but let us please spend a moment and tell me about your relationship with the Toronto

International Film Festival. Well again I got involved very very early days. I mean they didn't even have a corporate sponsor, not one. The only way they could get any people to come to their their shows was if they brought they paid for a big celebrity to uh... to uh... to come up and that they showcase these shows in the Ryerson theater there's nothing like it was today and that i knew a couple people who were part of the board

and they said look you know we know what you've done for the Globe and Mail in terms of doing advertising about their readers and having to use that to advertisers because the Globe and Mail said you know of doing advertising about their readers and having to use that to to get advertisers to come. Because the Globe Mail said you know as long as we're doing cost per thousand we lose to the Toronto Star all the time. Right. But we know we have more golfers than they do. Yeah they got a higher educated. We have more Mercedes-Benz owners. So I did that research for them so that they said can you do the same thing for the Toronto Film Festival? Can you interview the people who come to the Toronto Film Festival get a profile interview the people who come to the Toronto Film Festival, get a profile for them,

get the kind of things they consume so we can start using this for our sponsorship activity? Because they had no sponsors at that time at all. None. Not one corporate sponsor. This is in 1984, I think. Okay. 85. And I did it for free, for nothing. The back then, Decima, we did 10% pro bono work.

Every revenue that we had, we give 10 cents back to the not for profit sector. And showed it to them, they just said, wow, can you help us use this? And I said, sure, that's what I do. They said, well, wow, can you come on the board? And I came on the board and at the time, again, it was all people who were involved in the film industry.

They were all, they didn't know anything about anything other than how to make films. And it was a crazy time, a tremendous executive director in terms of a guy called Wayne Clarkson and someone who became a great friend of mine, Helga Steffeson after that. And after five years, they asked me whether I wanted to be the chair of the board.

And so I stayed on for another five years as the chair. Wow. And this was in a period where it went from nothing to something. Well, it sounds to me, you played a massive role in making the TIF what it is today. Like you played a big role. Helga and I certainly oversaw the transition of it to kind of a quaint regional cultural event to a must attend for Hollywood big stars. Wow.

Okay. Shout out to the late great Roger Ebert. Yes. Loved his tip. Well, and he would, we used to have a thing called the Floating Film Festival where Dusty Cole, who started the film festival, would hire a boat a boat of crews and we'd all go 150 of us Around the Caribbean and Roger was always on there and he would introduce movies Yeah for us every night after dinner and we would watch and it was always a great event

I think he's the only movie critic who won a Pulitzer or so. Yeah. No, he's brilliant Yeah, he was and I'll just say, I missed the days of, in syndication, it might air at funny times, but tuning in the old over-the-air television and watching Siskel and Ebert's. I missed those days because I'm also nostalgic. They were a little bit crusty for me. I like crusty. Roger in person, he just loved film. Yeah, he loved film and he was a great writer.

And listeners of this program know I'm a big fan of the Krusty. Okay, so did you do all right financially when you sold your shares of Decima? Not as well as the newspaper said I did, but yes, I became sufficiently wealthy that I didn't have to work anymore. Okay, and then again, you'll do a sequel

when I can ask more questions. But we covered a bit of it off the top, but it doesn't sound like this was the core business venture, Again, you'll do a sequel when I can ask more questions. But we covered a bit of it off the top, but you, it doesn't sound like this was the core business venture, but you were hosting the, sorry, Alan Gregg in conversation with. Right. And that was on our public broadcaster, TVO, TV Ontario.

And we talked about that off the top. They'd edited it down into the half an hour, but it was an in-depth interview. And like why does that ever have to end did you decide you were done or did they cancel it? I did it for 19 years and they canceled it I think I think to be honest it was an embarrassment to the agenda because I had put up my own subscriber YouTube and my subscribers were far exceeding the agendas uh... is a real talk right there well nobody in part i'm really one of the

people interviewed into the show was sir david attenborough the kind of the god father of documentary television and he said you know i started once and why would you read documentary dvds today i'm the biggest profit center in the bbc because my work last forever and it travels everywhere and the shows were exactly the same me allen ginsburg isn't given any more interviews right so if you want that's if you want to see allen ginsburg

having a conversation with someone it's in allen greggen conversation and so whereas what steve paken did today is who cares in two weeks it gets it yesterday's news card so this was the cunlis train men evergreen track record and yet it was just by saving a producer and and and research in nineteen years uh... they were under tremendous pressure from the provincial government

to focus on education and the only queens park uh was Paken's agenda, so I think given the choice, they had to do something. Okay, friendly with Steve Paken? Or frenemies, maybe? Yeah, because I think what happened is that he acquiesced to this, saying, well, I'll have to take some of Greg's guests,

and we can do the same kind of thing. We can have some long format interviewing and you know, little bit kind of opportunistic on his part I think. I have noticed a recent trend that somebody will be in the basement and I'll see him on agenda shortly thereafter. It happened with Amber Morley who is, Amber Morley was just, so shout out to Pagan who I know is listening and he knows I'm a big fan, big P Pagan head here. Although the way this interview is going I'm gonna be a

big Greg head. There you go. We got to call him Greg heads. Okay we got a coin that can you copyright that? Okay but Charlie Angus appeared on the agenda shortly after his viral moments in this very basement last Monday and Amber Morley. So shout out to Steve Pagan Okay, so we only have minutes, literal minutes remaining here and I wanted to talk about Jesse Hirsch because he's the reason you're in this basement right now. So did Jesse say, hey, you should do Toronto, like what did Jesse say to you that got you to pay a visit

to the South Etobicoke basement? Well, as I said, I've known Jesse for over 20 years and if he, for the last couple months, he and I have been talking uh... every week and he's got a sub stack uh... series and it is it's uh... say he's a cultural techno uh... anthropologist he looks at stuff he did a piece you know yesterday that's a social media is in social

because there's no decentralization is no democracy there's no control of the people who are actually you know the platform is supposed to serve. It's served by Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg and these people. And I find that his conversations with him were very stimulating. So he said, you really should start to sub-stack too. And so he's been helping me with that.

It's almost autobiographical, but it's, you know, we're calling it vanity and learning, which two words you know, we don't see together. But the attempt is to not only tell my story, but also to demonstrate what has been learned and what is applicable to today. And we've talked about the prospect of just taking our conversations, perhaps through our own podcast. So we're in the discussion stage. Okay. So am I hearing this? There might be a podcast with you and Jesse possibly. Yeah, okay? This is a breaking news here

I should play a sound effect or something if I were a morning zoo show I'd have something Well as I say we have so much fun having our weekly conversations anyway We just thought you know maybe someone like to eavesdrop on this Well, I mean I'd be one of those people who would like to eavesdrop on that. And I will report that Jesse Hirsch will make his second visit to the basement at some point soon. I don't have the date in front of me, but looking forward to it. But you, Al and Greg, are going to come back. But is there anything like on your drive here on this cold Wednesday morning that you're

like, oh, I hope I get a chance to say this or this is the moment where you can you can throw it out there now anything that we didn't cover that you wanted to speak to. No Mike you've covered a lot of ground here. I did cover a lot of ground. I really enjoyed the conversation. And thank you because I literally had two hours more tragically hip questions. We'll come back. I promise we'll come back. Okay Alan Alan, this was amazing and Jesse, you were right, he writes me this, he had me at hello, he wrote me this note like, would you consider talking to Alan Gregg? And I'm like, of course, like you listen to Toronto

Mike, Alan Gregg is precisely the kind of guy I want to talk to, so thank you so much for curving out well over 90 minutes as I look at my watch. I really do appreciate that. Not everybody will do that. The pleasure was mine. And that brings us to the end of our 1,618th show. Go to torontomic.com for all your Toronto Mike needs or go to Blue Sky, where the one social media channel I like right now, where I post often and I am at torontomic.com on Blue Sky. If you're still on the Nazi site, please, there's less Nazis at Blue Sky and you can follow me and we can have a nice conversation there. Much love to all who made this possible. Again, that's Great Lakes Brewery. I'm going to have more beer than this even. I'm going to

load you up here, Alan, with some fresh craft beer from Great Lakes Brewery. Palma Pasta, don't leave without your lasagna, Alan. Recyclemyelectronics.ca, Building Toronto Skyline with Nick Aines from Fusion Corp and Ridley Funeral Home. See you all tomorrow. Speaking of music, Karen Bliss is my special guest making her Toronto mic debut tomorrow. She came up in the Remembering David Farrell episode we recorded with Dave Charles and Richard Flowhill. We're going to talk to Karen Bliss. There's a lot of big names right there. Richard Flow Hill by the way still attends like 200 shows a year or something.

It's amazing. He's got to be 90. He's older than me. He's older than 90 and the only guy who was you know Dave Hodge is still out there going to a bunch of shows. He turns 80 this year. Wow. So there you go. No rest for the wicked. See you all then. So So So You