Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - Amanda Cupido: Toronto Mike'd Podcast Episode 1580

Episode Date: November 13, 2024

In this 1580th episode of Toronto Mike'd, Mike chats with Amanda Cupido about what happened at AM 640 and the current state of radio and podcasting. Toronto Mike'd is proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, Palma Pasta, Ridley Funeral Home, The Advantaged Investor podcast from Raymond James Canada, The Yes We Are Open podcast from Moneris and RecycleMyElectronics.ca. If you would like to support the show, we do have partner opportunities available. Please email Toronto Mike at [e-mail]

Welcome to episode 1580 of Toronto Mic'd. Proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, a fiercely independent craft brewery who believes in supporting communities, good times and brewing amazing beer. Order online for free local home delivery in the GTA. Palma Pasta. Enjoy the taste of fresh, homemade Italian pasta and entrees from Palma Pasta in Mississauga and Oakville. The Advantage Investor podcast

from Raymond James Canada. Learn how to plan, invest, and live smarter. Season 7 of Yes We Are Open, an award-winning podcast from Monaris, hosted by FOTM Al Gregor. RecycleMyElectronics.ca, committing to our planet's future means properly recycling our electronics of the past. And Ridley Funeral Home, pillars of the community since 1921. Today, returning to Toronto, Mike, but making her in-person debut is Amanda Cupido. Hi.

How are you doing, Amanda? I'm doing well. How are you? Can we crack open our Great Lakes beer right off the top? Yeah, we can. I've been waiting for you to come here. Cause you knew I'd say yes to this. Okay. So on the mic, you go first.

You got yourself the premium lager. Love this lager. Okay. Okay. Ready? And I know you have a relationship, but let's listen. Oh yeah. I should finish that sentence. You have a relationship.

No, I meant with GLB. Okay. Everybody here you go. Let me crack open mine first. Okay. Cheers, so cheers. Okay, good, I know we've met before, but your first appearance on Toronto Mic, and slurp, I love the slurp, okay. Yeah, I'm putting it in the mic on purpose, yeah.

Thank you, okay, I like it, okay, because we're going to talk podcasting, you've got a new book called Let's Talk Podcasting, but off the top, I thought maybe we could talk like a little radio, like can we start with radio and then segue our way over to podcasting? Yes, let's do it. My whole career has been the intersection of both.

So why not? Okay, cause the difference between you and I is I listened to radio, but you worked in radio. Different, right? And I listened, but yes. Okay, and you listened to it. Imagine you didn't listen. Okay. So last time I saw you, and this ties nicely to Great Lakes Brewery, because it was at the GLB Brew Pub at Jarvis and Queens Key. Do you remember this day?

Of course. And this is something I'm really proud of, of my time at 640 Toronto. You were at 640? Just kidding. Okay, no, this is what I want to cover. So. Yeah, and then we were launching Breaking Brews, which was a beer we did in collaboration with GLB. It was amazing, so fun. And yes, you were there. I was recording live in the corner.

I think I'm like, hey, like you're all gonna be, it's like a honey pot. Yeah. You got a lot of interviews out of that day, I think. Well, you know, people I knew were there, like Greg Brady, Ed Keenan was literally here and then he went there and I'm like, oh, I'm sick of you now. Kelly Catrera, beloved FOTM, Alex Pearson,

a lot of people I knew, but there were people I hadn't met that I wanted to talk to. And everybody was collecting because you were launching that, like you called it, Breaking Brews. That was the name that the audience voted for, for our beer. And that was also one of the big things I brought, I think that I'm really proud of, of that time, and that I bring everywhere I go,

is building community and bringing people together. And keep in mind, I started in that role, it was still locked down, hence why the first time I was on your show, we were remote. And so it was nice to be on the other side of lockdown and be able to bring the people together, the team, the community, and celebrate.

It was just fun. Good times were had by all. Yeah. Because at that point in your professional life, you were the program director at AM640. Yeah. Which is amazing unto itself, but I can tell the listenership

that the reason you came on Toronto Mic the first time was because I got a chorus PR email saying, hey, would you talk to Amanda, our new PD? And I'm like, of course. And then we did that via zoom for some reason, I think I can't remember why, but we did it via zoom. And that's when I was introduced to you. And we talked about, you know, your plans for six 40. So before we segue over to podcasting, what happened at 640? Like what went wrong? Why did they say, Hey, peace and love to you, Amanda, your services are no longer required. What happened? I think there isn't anything that went wrong. So I'll, I'll say that right. But okay, keep

going because I was told right up until my last day that I had surpassed all expectations from a performance and delivery. That's why you had to go. Well, they were making lots of cuts, come on. Have you been watching? So they cut a whole track of leadership beyond just me, many PDs and going up the chain

and started amalgamating roles everywhere. No, you're going firstly, listeners of this program have heard Bob Willett every month on toast talk about how he was a program director for the Kingston, Ontario cluster. And like you said, now it's like they're basically eliminating positions like it's their job to do so. So obviously, cost cutting is a rampant at chorus and you're a victim of that. Yeah, it was a numbers game. So they like the result. That's interesting insight though. They were, you exceeded the expectations at 640. Like 640 used to be a lesser light compared to the mighty 1010. Like it used to be that 1010 was this behemoth and 640 was, you know, fighting for scraps or something.

And now it seems when I do get access to some kind of numerous data or whatever, that it's a close race between these two stations. I did a lot of foundational work in my time there that the station needed a little bit of TLC to be honest. And so even my first year was a lot of like team building morale building. And I think that was really important and was really needed and was known internally, widely, that that was my focus in the first year.

And then externally, a lot of stuff happened in the second year that I was there. But, and then my, you know, my time was up, but it was nice to be so warmly received and for my departure to be so emotional for many. And yeah, you know, it's the nature of the biz. This is like, I went in going, let's see how long, let's see what my run is gonna be like. How long was your run?

It was just under two years. Okay. Yeah. Is that long enough though? I mean, like, again, cost cutting kind of comes into play and they're, you know, they're looking for a buyer at chorus, right? But you want to buy chorus with me? If we pull our money together, Mike, I think we could do it. Maybe it's, it's, it's a numbers game and it's radio for you. And in Canada, the landscape is hurting. And so I went in being like, let me just take, shoot my shot at saving radio in this country

and saving talk radio. Not that one person could do it single-handedly, but I always have a love for radio. I will always have a love for radio. I went and did my best, proud of what I did. And I kept my company from the beginning on purpose that was written into my contract like it was a name. What's the name of your company?

Lead podcasting. So you had lead podcasting before the six forty. Oh, yeah. And then you paused it. No, they. So when I was recruited for this role, I was I launched my company in twenty twenty. I was recruited for this role at the end of twenty twenty one. And I purposely wrote in saying, listen, my company is 2020. I was recruited for this role at the end of 2021. And I purposely wrote in saying, listen, my company is off to the races. We've got contracts like that can't stop.

So the deal was for me to step out of day to day operations, still be the face of it. But I hired an operations manager when I got hired at the talk station. And then I was out of day to day and the team was running. So it definitely kept going. It just didn't grow. It kind of plateaued on purpose.

And then since I've been back into the business full time, which is what I'm doing now, my business grew 100% from last year to this year. Do you realize your lead podcasting is a direct competition with TMDS? Yeah. Okay. But you know what? The podcast world is friendly. Come on.

You know this. Is that right? Oh, well that means you're not friendly. I think there's enough work to go around for everyone. I think there's a lot of, I don't know. I see the industry. Rising tide, floating all boats, et cetera. Well, you're obviously, you're here.

I opened my door to you. I gave you some fresh craft beer. I'm excited about the chat. So obviously there's no animosity here and I wish you much luck with lead podcasting. And we're going to talk a lot of podcasting because you've got a book and we're going to talk about that. But as we put a bow on this, so it all kind of, you talked about team building and morale and everything. And that, that day at GLB brew pub, that's a good example of that, right? Like you're launching a beer. Everybody's got,

gets together for delicious Great Lakes, a brewery kitchen food and fresh craft beer from GLB. Like that was a pretty, pretty cool day. Right. You were there. Like how did that feel? I was the embedded journalist in the room. But didn't it feel cool? Like there was a buzz and I had people coming.

I recorded it. I know. You can listen, like people were coming to me saying, this doesn't feel like talk radio. This doesn't feel like 640 Toronto. It was a breath of fresh air and that was what I brought and I think that's how it was received and that was one example of many.

We had a lot of those kinds of moments and like I said, not only just because of the track and what had been happening at that station, but also because of just the general morale in the world because of lockdown. So I think there was a lot to do in that foundational element. And I made some really great friendships because of it too. So it's beautiful, beautiful thing. So the new PD is Mike Bendixson. Correct. And you, did you work with him at 1010? Yes,

he was the first person to give me a full-time job in radio. Okay. So that's a mind blow right there. So, uh So have you talked to Mike since he took over exchange notes or anything? No, we have not exchanged notes. And I think that's probably, you know, just me giving him space, him giving me space. It is a little bit of an awkward thing when someone takes your job. But of course, we know each other. Right. I figured as much. Okay, so Ben Dixon's now running the show. Have you tuned in to 640 since you were let go? Yeah, here and there. But of course, now that I have to, you can only listen for so long

and there's so much to listen to. And now that I've shifted my gear back to podcasting, I am majority of my time is spent listening to podcasts. But of course, I'm still cheering on that station. I always will. And the people there who I care about. So I feel you're a better person than me. I feel like you fire me as program director. And I've never worked in radio, but if I'm program director at six, four, like, okay, let's use podcasting. For example, if I'm producing a podcast and they're like, Mike, we love you, but we're

going to lead podcasting. Amanda's our girl now. You know what I do? I root for failure. I hope this podcast sheds all listeners. I hope it sucks. You know, you're a better person than me. I guess we're a bit different that way, but I do feel sure I'm honest about it. I have, but think about it. Imagine you're, you're one of your dear friends was the host

of that podcast that you weren't producing anymore. Would you still go root for your friend? Yeah, they dumped me for Amanda. Of course I root against them with all my, all my passion here. Okay. So you're still rooting for six 40. I would hope six 40 dives because now there's a new program director and it will look like that new program director is doing a better job than me, Amanda Capito. I just feel like if you're being completely honest with me, there must be some element of you that doesn't want six 40 to do better without you than they did with you. I think that you're human being Amanda.

No, but like, think of it like this. If they do well, I'm going to be like the foundational work that I did there. Nobody, nobody's as sophisticated enough to connect those dots. Yes. That foundational work stuck and go. And if it fails, honestly, it's, it's a knock against the whole whole industry Which makes me worried for radio because I think radio is a public service And although I'm excited about the future of podcasting there is always gonna be space and a need for radio And so I want that to work just for like you're talking about like in the apocalypse when we need to find out

What do we do? The aliens are here or something all When all the devices shut down and you can throw up a transmitter and yes. I agree with you. That is when we'll all say to each other, oh, thank goodness we still have radio. Exactly, yes. That's how they'll communicate with us what to do. Now I'll hear the prime minister's voice, okay. Yeah.

You know, stay calm, carry on. We're talking to these aliens now. It'll probably be Trump invading for water. I think that's what's going to happen here. But thank goodness we have radio. Yeah. And again, I'm a big fan of radio. I just have never worked in radio. Okay. So do you, so you're rooting for six 40 success. I know we'll move on from radio. I've asked you about Mike Ben Dixon. You haven't been meeting for Great Lakes beers to compare notes. When you listen you like what you hear? Is that what I heard? I think that there is things that I like and things that I don't like but

that's like any radio station right? It's impossible to do a perfect day in radio. That's one of the you know pitfalls of it. You're just on so much and I think that there were some things that stayed the same that I set up, and I'm so glad to hear them continuing. Like what? Well, they're still like, let's talk with Danny Stover. That was a show that I launched.

I like Danny very much. And so that, and that went national with Mike. So, you know, that's like a nice continuation of something that has been started. And there was also things like, for instance, when I came in the clocks, and I know you never worked in radio, but clocks are really important.

What time do we go to traffic? What time do we go to news? And that was really messy when I got there. For no one person's fault, it's just there was no strict clock, and that's actually one of the like radio one-on-ones. See, I find this interesting, because for example, you see I have the old 680 news Mike.

Yes, they're great with the clock. Yeah. So it's all about because this wheel or whatever. Yeah. And so Scott McCaff came over and he gifted that to me and I talk all the time to whatever Mike Apple or whatever. And yeah, they're atomic with these this clock and you brought in some of that order to six four. Correct. And that took less behind the scenes.

It took a lot of work, but that got and to even get everyone on board with a same clock for every show. Because when I came, it was different clocks for different shows. And to me, that blew my mind. And so I tried to consolidate across not only weekday shows, but also weekend. We are having as similar as you can. Weekend is always a little different cause there's less news. But anyway.

And a lot of you paid programming on weekends too, I would imagine. Yes, but usually they would still follow the same clock. Like you want the clock to be as consistent as possible. And there was also some efforts to make the clock consistent with national programming during this time. And so anyway, doing this work, Mike came in and changed the clocks again,

which again, this is a difference, but great, figure out the best way to do the clocks. We need clocks and that's what- He wants the old 10 10 clock. Maybe. He's bringing that over. I don't actually know what the clocks are. I'm not paying enough attention. I'm not listening enough to really jot down minute by minute, but you know, those are some things

that it's like radio 101. You need a good clock and sure, he's gonna change that. Great. I hope that they land on something that works well for them. Don't you find it interesting that terrestrial radio needs a good clock? But like my favorite podcast thing is that you don't need a clock. That's why I love podcasting too, because and especially someone who worked on air where I'd have an amazing story that deserved more than 30 seconds in the newscast. I'd have to cut it. It didn't matter.

Now podcasting it's like you give the story what it deserves. You could have a whole chapter in your book, Let's Talk Podcasting. It could be called, Fuck the Clock. I wouldn't be as vulgar, but I do live by that. Okay, I'm gonna gift you my book right now as you talk about it. Oh my God, you know, I have a digital version,

but now I have a hard cover. A color version, which is also limited edition color version. Did you autograph a copy for Ted Wallisian? So I joined him remotely. So no, but if I see him, you do that Ted, I'm just kidding. I listened to that. That's why I'm bringing it. I would give, I would give Ted a copy.

We, me and him go way back. Obviously I got an, uh, um, so not only did I listen to that episode, but, uh, Fred Patterson from humble and Fred listened to the Ted Wollish in episode and sent in questions for you. So then when I got the questions, I'm like, I have to listen to this before I get to know the context. So then I listened to you on Ted's and FOTM. You're an FOTM. Fred's an FOTM.

Anyway, so that's coming soon. But thank you for this. Let's talk podcasting. Sean and Michael. Oh, dirty note. Just kidding. Thanks for having me on the show. Okay.

Thank you very much for the hard copy cover. I got to give the, so it's called let's talk podcasting, the essential guide to doing it right. That's it. And where can people get a copy of this book? You can go let's talk podcasting.com and see everywhere that it's available, but it's going to be everywhere. And I have a little bookmark.

And that's you. That's me. Okay. Did you do, are you doing something different with your hair? Yeah, I cut it all off. My hair looks like your hair now. We're matching. That's me. Okay. Did you do, are you doing something different with your hair? Yeah, I cut it all off. My hair looks like your hair now. We're matching. But you have pigmentation.

Are you dying that hair? No, I still have my color even after I'm 640. I don't know how much younger. When do you turn 30? When do I turn 30? Stop it. I know I'm going to take that as a compliment. It means that my wrinkles aren't coming through yet.

No, you look good. You look good. And I noticed the hair difference. Absolutely. So this is a new vibe for you. Like this is the Radio Free Amanda vibe. Maybe. I think it's, you know, I had my hair at a certain length because going through journalism school way back,

they told you, you know, you got to have this cut as a reporter if you want to be on the air. And there was a world where I went into TV. I didn't know this. Yes. For women, it was like shoulder length and ideally straightened hair. And so I did that for a long time.

Even as I got into radio, we still would do TV stuff, especially when I was with Bell reporting with News Talk 1010. And so I just kept that look. And then even beyond, I just felt like I had to keep that look. And then it is true. And then I had a wedding. So, of course, no one cuts their hair before their wedding. That's crazy.

Your wedding? Yeah. You're married. I got married in last one year ago. I didn't know this. OK, congratulations. Thank you. That was it was right after I got laid off.

So it's like a big, big change for me. I mean, I saw you that time at the GOB Brew Pub. You were you weren't married. My fiance was there. Yeah. Your fiance was there. Yeah, I guess you didn't meet him. But there was a lot of people there. So I't blame you. Okay, is what's his is he famous?

Do I know this guy's name is Boris Kurtzman? He also worked in media, but more behind the scenes So he was in master control at Bell for many years and now he's at Ontario Legislative Assembly doing Broadcasting recording services. So he's like turning on the mic for the house and it would be funny We'd come home and he'd be like, did you hear what Doug Ford said today? I'm like, yeah, we aired it. It was some good conversations.

Yes. So you're like a multimedia family here. I feel like you're going concerned. That's exciting. So you, but you kept your name Cupido. Like you have a branding with that name. Got it. And my birthday is Valentine's day.

I don't know if you knew this. I don't know. I'm learning so much about you. Like before I get into the nuts and bolts of podcasting, I need to learn. You did the hair. Yeah. You're married now. You did the hair. Your last name is Cupid.

Oh, and my birthday is Valentine's Day. We're never changing the last name and Cupid. Oh, as I'm now going to refer to it, that is an Italian last name. It's Capito. Yeah. And which is why it's perfect. I'm getting this palma. This is where it's almost like you're in radio or something, you know. So I do have in my freezer upstairs a frozen lasagna for you from Palma pasta.

Have you ever had Palma pasta? No, and I'm so excited because I love fresh pasta. My both my nannas are still alive and they still make so it's gonna. Because you're not 30 yet. That's why. It's because my grandma, my god bless their hearts. They're in their late eighties and nineties. But, um, and my book is actually dedicated to them. If you open the first page, because they gave up everything to move to Canada, dedicated to me, is dedicated to the known as it's very sweet. They, they mean so much to me. So will they read this book? They do not understand English. Uh, so I read it and had it translated for them so they know. Okay. Cause I was going to say this, explain the basis. Like it's really good at explaining

the one-on-one of podcasting. I feel like you're known as would totally get podcasting if they read this book. Like this is a very good guide for to educate people. What the hell is podcasting? It's new, but it's also for people who have been at it for a while. As you will see from all of my testimonials, it is people who read the book, who have been in the industry for a long time, said they still learn things, which I thought. So I read the book. I will disclose you. I have read this book. I did. I had a digital copy. And was there anything that surprised you? No, but we're going to get into the book.

Okay. We're going to get into the book here. So the palm of pasta, I just want to say to you, Amanda and anyone else listening, they're hosting us, us FOTMs at TMLX 17, which is November 30th. That's not far from now. So that's a Saturday, November 30th, noon to 3pm. All FOTMs are invited and Palma pasta will buy you a free, you'll get a free meal. Yeah. So you'll eat come hungry, darling. And I'm gonna bring some fresh craft beer from our favorite brewery, Great Lakes Brewery.

Amazing, well, I have to check my calendar, but if I can be there, I'll be there. You should be there, and then, cause I'm gonna record live. Okay, fine. And I'm gonna have, so Elvis and I are gonna kind of hold down the fort, and we have these open mics,

and you could pop on the mic, you could share a festive message of love or just we could just have a quick chat and see how you're doing. Open mic, everyone invited can pop on the mic as well. So free food, free drink. And if you're courageous enough, you can jump on the mic and maybe Elvis will bust your chops a little bit.

So November 30th at noon. And that will tie in later because there is a whole section on like community events and stuff with podcasting. There's a few different elements I want to dive into here. So quickly, you're on a podcasting Discord server, Canadian podcasters. I see you there. Do you know what I'm talking about? Yeah. I mean, I'm there a little bit. Discord is an area that I really need to learn about. I don't care for myself either. It's tough. But Al Greggo, I believe is the mastermind behind this and Al Greggo hosts a

show for Monaris called, yes, we are open. Yes. They're in season seven. And he has sent over that quality wireless speaker for you, Amanda. That's so nice. And I love Al. So thank you. This is great. And it's a great show. That's won many awards and is nominated Al. So thank you. This is great. And it's a great show that's won many awards and is nominated for some new ones. Littered with awards. Like they had to build Maneras had to build a new trophy case. They said, Oh, this is enough. They actually went to and said, they tapped them on the shoulder and said, Al, enough is enough. You've won enough

awards. Can you slow it down a little bit? So episode six just dropped. This is season seven that's dropping now. And here's what Al wrote about it. I had a really fun visit with Neil McGelsky and his team to talk about the home gaming industry and the 60 plus year history of AVO game room. So this is, you know, Al traveling the country talking to small business owners about their origins, their struggles and their future outlook. So that's season seven dropping now. It's award winning and wins so many damn awards. It makes me nauseous. I'm so jealous of Al

Greggo. Episode six just dropped and you've got a new speaker to listen to it on. Amazing. Thank you. And to get this out of the way here, because I'm going to rock and roll with podcast talk the rest of the way, Ridley Funeral Home. They don't, they don't want to see you soon, but if the known as go, okay, I'm just saying they'll, they'll take care of the known as okay. Okay. You know, eventually they're going to die and hopefully it's not for a very long time. I know you don't want to think about it. That's the idea. You just talk to Brad Jones at Ridley Funeral Home. He'll take care of you. Hopefully this is still decades away.

Correct. Great. This is what I hope. But in the meantime, you can measure anything you want, Amanda, with that measuring tape. Just measure. I will. And then measure the time you have left with your beloved Nonas. Who probably make a good lasagna. They make amazing lasagna. Palma Pasta can't compete with the Nonas, but they're the next best thing. I bet. You'll let me know. Okay. Okay. And last but not least, recycle your electronics. I'm sorry. You're so yummy. Do they have that domain name?

I got to check. Recycle my electronics dot C. A is where you go. If you have old electronics, old devices, old cables collecting dust in your attic or in a drawer somewhere, don't throw it in the garbage. Those chemicals end up in our landfill. Go to recycle my electronics dot C. A find out where you can drop it off to be properly recycled. Got it, Amanda?

Got it. Got it, get it, got it, good. Okay, I'm gonna take a sip of this. Okay, me too. When you got the tap on the shoulder from Chorus and they're like, we're poor, we can't have you anymore, did you consider getting another radio job? Or did you say to yourself,

it's time to go back to lead podcasting? I got calls and offers which was really kind and of course I pondered them with thought and care but I... Radio jobs right? Okay okay. Yeah but I knew in my heart of hearts that was really it. Like I was, I already kind of felt like good with radio before I got this program director offer. I felt I had done a lot of the things I wanted to do and I was excited about podcasting. But then when this PD role came up,

I just felt like I'll kick myself if I say no. Also, there's never been a woman who's been a program director at a talk station in Toronto. So I was like I just need to get that done. That's a mind blow. You'll be in the history books forever. I think so. So I had to just do it. Breaking the glass ceiling. There it is. So I was happy I did it and I still love radio. So I but I think I what I landed on well was great because then I got married and I went on a three week honeymoon. Now where did you go? We went to Italy, Malta and Amsterdam. Okay, I have not been to Malta yet. It's actually the other two places I like very much. It's the highlight. It was amazing. Highly recommend. I got to go there. There you go.

We could talk about that off mic because I'll talk about that for hours. It's great. My buddy, Joe goes there frequently. He was born there. Joe and Joe and Tio. People might know Joe and Tio. Traveled the world for a year and then the pandemic hit.O., people might know Joe and T.O. Traveled the world for a year and then the pandemic hit. But I wanna go to Malta. Put it on the list. And so I did think about it, but really, I made a list of saying, okay,

if I were to even get another full-time job, it would have to be a dream job. And what would those dream jobs be? And I basically had two jobs listed and even when one of those jobs got posted, I didn't apply for it. Because I just said. Can I guess?

You won't guess. Okay, you want it? Okay, I can't guess. I knew you could try, but I don't think you'll get them. Because I know it was posted recently because I know somebody who this was their dream job. They wanted to be program director for CF and why the edge No, no none of you were done with chorus and I'm done with

Traditional radio you're done. Not done, but like I would consult I could do freelance But I wasn't gonna go to an I already had a program director job at a Toronto station like that in talk radio Which was my whole background would there's nothing more There was nothing really more. I did have a, there was an opportunity, a potential opportunity. I was in conversation. I need to know what's going on here. Okay.

We'll get to podcasting soon. There was potential for an on air position. In Toronto? No. Okay. But this was where I thought about it for a little bit, but I just in my heart of hearts, I was like, I could do fill in, but I will not take a full time. It doesn't

make sense right now for me in my career, which market? I'm not saying it was in Ontario. Anyway, so I think that I will still I'm still in touch with a lot of program directors, management, about talking about strategy, digital strategy, and I'm excited about potential partnerships that might come out of that in more of a consultation opportunity, or in more of a contractor, right, opportunity like this. But the two jobs that I would have,

like two dream dream jobs for me, one would be overseeing TED Audio Collective. That's out of the US. TED Talks, right? I did a TED Talk. Not Ted Wallachian. Love that guy, but no. And that job got posted and I did not apply for it. But it would have meant I moved to the US and I just wasn't ready to do that. And also the other job is to actually work with LinkedIn because I'm a big LinkedIn user. Okay. And I really believe in that as a platform. And if I could work with them in a communications role,

I think that would be really fulfilling and interesting. Anyway, those were my two things I put in my head. But then it just, none of this felt right. Even when the Ted job came up and I couldn't bring myself to apply for it, I went there, there it is. You gotta just trust your gut. I gotta go back into my business. It means I have to end my operations manager that I hired. You know, she came to me and

was like, okay, well, I guess you have to lay me off because you're back. And I said, no, we are going to supercharge this business and you're staying and I'm going to make my salary back on top of it. And I did. So I'm happy that it, how big is that team over there? You got, you got, you got a, how many bodies going on? So it's me full time and I did so I'm happy that it how big is that team over there you got you got you got a how many bodies going on so it's me full-time and I have two permanent part-time managers and then we work with contractors and freelancers so we can we have a music composer a graphic designer so we can balloon depending on projects right but the core of the team is around 11 people that is on multiple shows.

And then we have a couple of watch out Canada land. Here comes the podcasting. It's good. It's a healthy little team. Okay, very good. Now, LinkedIn, I like LinkedIn too. Fine, right? I'm posting there too.

But it is morphing into Facebook just slowly, but it's on its way there. It's not quite as quick. Now I'm hearing about I'm reading the kind of posts I would typically see on Facebook, more personal posts. It is an evolution time. It also just rolled out like the Reels style video or like TikTok style video where it's like, you scroll through. Something else for me to ignore.

I know. So I was like, oh, I kind of liked that it didn't have this. But you know, anyway, it's, we're in a transition with digital content as a whole. So it's experimenting. Facebook, let's recall, Facebook had a weird time where it went sideways a bit with these weird things on people's walls

and all these apps and widgets that you could add, and it played music when you landed on their page sometimes, right, and it dialed it back. So maybe LinkedIn is doing its own little experiment and dial back. Who knows? And shout out to Elvis, who hopefully you'll get to meet on November 30th if you make it

to Palma's kitchen. Yeah, he works at LinkedIn. So maybe we should talk. Cool. I should talk for sure. Okay. All right. And last radio question.

Okay. And then we're segueing over. Okay. How much autonomy did you have at 640? I'm curious, like, Amanda can't just do anything Amanda envisions and dreams up, right? Like, do you have ideas and you got to bring them to some committee or something? Like give me a little bit of the real talk behind the scenes and what it would take for you to I don't know I hate to say the word but to fire a host or to change up a host like what would that entail? Did you have any autonomy in that regard?

Okay so first off I think one of the things that I was most disgruntled with seeing an online commentary was that I had no authority. I found that really hurtful actually because I was a program director and unlike at Bell, there's no general manager. It was just me. I oversaw that entire budget. So I was like, where is this coming from? And I hate that that was even in conversation.

I changed so many things in such a short period of time too. Like, you know, I announced a lineup change within a month, two months of me being in the role when I was on your show, that we were moving the paid programming around and actually shifting. Right. Like that was to have made even a move that drastic, that fast, I think should have said it all. But anyway, I did.

You know, those people who are posting that in whatever online forum that is, they're looking for blood, right? Like they're looking to see, they want to see, I don't know, Katrera, you're out of here. I'm bringing in whatever, like they're looking to see. But that's such an old school way of managing too, right? Like to come in and be like, I got all my ideas, I got it all figured out and you're gone, you're gone, you're gone by.

Like that is not healthy leadership. So I went in and took stock of what was happening. Right. I did have to fire people. Now, I made decisions that I thought were integral for the team. And it's it and I will say things have changed, not just with my role, just in general, the radio landscape, you can't just go in and fire someone.

Because that's HR protocols. You can't just overnight pull the rug underneath, you're gonna get a lawsuit. We have employment lawyers who sponsor us. You can totally do that if you sever them fairly. Like you actually don't need a, you could, I'm not saying you should, okay. If you fire them with cause or without cause.

You don't have to give a reason. You could literally say your services are no longer required. And as long as they get fair severance, you don't actually need a reason to fire somebody. Okay, so this is getting into the legalities, but. I'm bringing in the lawyer. No, if you wanna talk about it,

if you're fired with cause, it means they did something. Well, that's that's like the Stafford thing, right? Stafford. Yeah. So you don't have to pay severance with cause, but then fired without cause or a layoff. There's two, right? So a layoff where you're paying severance, that's a layoff, but that means that role is gone. The role has to be removed to fire with a severance. I okay. My understanding is we obviously don't have a lawyer on the call here, but I think, I think you can just literally, and I'll use real names just to make it simple, but you can go to a Greg Brady and say you're done. And of course that role is not gone.

You didn't get rid of the morning shift. Okay. Someone else is now going to host the morning open yourself up to a legal case. You do that. You, you would, I believe as long as you sever Mr. Brady, and I hope this doesn't happen, I like Greg very much, but you sever Mr. Brady, maybe I should use fake names. You sever Mr. Brady fairly,

and that's the only thing you're gonna do. There's no severing fairly. I think that doesn't really exist. And okay, so basically, without getting into all the legalities, they are risk adverse from a legality perspective because employees have gotten very good at knowing their rights, which is great I think it's a good thing and so you can't you're not just doing that anymore unless the position unless it's Mike Stafford

No, but he was fired with cause no, I know the with cause or layoff that was these were the two ways or Or a restructure right and you're like shuffling multiple things. So anyway, I think that there was a lot of foundational elements that were not in place when I got in. So it didn't make sense for me to make any drastic talent changes when we didn't have a proper clock. How could I blame a host when they don't have

a proper clock in place? So I purposely did not. Now, one transition I did facilitate was moving Alan Carter and Jeff MacArthur off the radio. And that was for multiple reasons. I love both those guys, but that was a lineup change that I facilitated. And that was because they were doing double duty with TV

and getting stretched. And I just, I actually felt I was worried about maybe some of them being on the brink of burnout. And because of the double duty, they weren't able to be part of the team and doing everything with the station because they were with the TV side. And on the TV side, they were both thriving.

And so it didn't, again, I like to base my decisions in strategy, not just a gut feeling. And so when I looked at that and I looked holistically at what made most sense, that's what made most sense. And so I did make, so I made two, I mean multiple lineup changes in a pretty short period of time, but all of them based in like after doing really thoughtful evaluation of the holistic picture, not just who do I like on the air. It's not just, it's not about me.

It's funny, you mentioned Alan Carter, who I remember that day we were at GLB Brewpub. I remember sitting down and having, he had been on before, but I got to catch up with him. He's amazing. I like that guy, he's at City News now. Because the same wave of cuts that caught Alan Carter, cut Farrah Nassar, who is going to be talking to you at your launch party

Yes, so this is a good time to talk about the launch party as you launch. Let's talk podcasting because I like far very much she's amazing and I would say that she's got She's such an incredible journalist. She's got a lot of projects brewing, which I'm excited for her. And she will be interviewing me about my book. And- She'll do a better job than I'm doing.

That is a guarantee. Well, we haven't even talked about my book, but yes. She's, no, we've met for coffee and we're getting ready for it. It'll be fun. Can people go to this? Like, can people watch Farrah interview you about your book? So, I mean, they can attend. Well, that's what I mean.

Which if you want to come, it's Joey's Young and Dundas 630 to 830 Thursday, November 14th, if you're listening to this before then, which is tomorrow. And that's tomorrow. Just to be clear. So hopefully you're listening to this very quickly or you missed it. We are going to record it. We're not live streaming it and we might just put out some clips afterwards. Oh, so you'll record this and it'll appear as what? Do you have a podcast stream? Like where will this could you listen to this? We're going to we're going to actually video it.

And my husband has the media. If only you knew a videographer of some sort. He's going to he's going to be in charge of the video and then we'll put it up on the lead podcasting YouTube. What a dynamic duo you guys are, honestly, this is wild. Okay, so that's happening tomorrow night at Joey's at Eden Center. Yep. Okay, awesome.

I feel like I gotta do a little mop up because Eric did write in, I'm not sure which channel he wrote in, but he did reply to the whole if you have a question for Amanda Capito and this is If you have a chance, could you ask Amanda if she has anything to say about her time at future real? Oh my gosh that might have been

His name's Eric That might have been her first radio gig out of slash podcasting gig out of school So I can't say I know what future real is, but I promised Eric who is a devout listener of this program that I would ask you. He found me. That was the very first podcast I ever made. That was, I keep saying 2010, but someone corrected me and said, actually it was 2009 and I hosted it.

If you, if you look really hard, you could find it, but there is a podcast out there with me as host. And it's like, I was interning at this magazine actually as a writer Okay, it's a digital magazine and then you're real. Yep. It doesn't exist anymore Um, it was like a community project and I and I did a podcast for them back in the day. Okay, Eric There you go And I actually just reconnected with one of the managing editors who's now in event planning we were both at a conference and had a laugh and yeah so I still actually keep in touch with with some people from that magazine. So wow

thanks for clocking that. That's real. He must have done some real digging on the internet to figure that out. Eric's a good guy. He's in the the the FOTM WhatsApp group. He's a good guy. I will say one thing too. There's a chapter in there about the in my book about the art of interviewing. And I talk about interviewing Russell Peters and that Russell Peters interview was for the future real podcast. Okay. So there you go. And you're getting Russell Peters and I'm getting his brother Clayton Peters. That's the difference between them, Amanda and me. Okay. Our podcast killing the radio star. No. Can they can can they concurrently exist? I feel like a lot of people are not listening to radio now because they figured out Bluetooth

in their car and now they're listening to podcasts instead. But what say you? Okay, my hot take is that they are different. They are different. And radio is instant live. And this is what I said when I went into that role as PD, leveraging that, leveraging the things that podcasting is not, being able to give live updates, being able to have a caller

call in and instantly go on the air. Those are things that podcasting does not have other than social audio, which I don't actually think is going to take off because radio is just better at it. Podcasting. I don't like social audio. Me neither. Me neither. Podcasting there. Of course, there's an overlap in audio storytelling, but I think they can both exist if they both lean into the elements that serve them best, podcasting, no time limits, being able to really massage something before it goes out, like leaning into the strengths of both the mediums can have them happily coexist. But what's happening is we have some radio stations who are putting podcasts on the radio, which is I actually don't love that idea or taking a radio show

and just, you know, taking it raw as it was and throwing it up as a podcast. That's better than the first one, which makes no sense because why would I want to listen to the podcast at this time and then have your ad breaks in there and stuff when I could listen to it on demand whenever I want. Why would I want to listen to something that was live on demand? Because you didn't want because you're not going to listen live. Yeah, but it should be it should be fixed and treated before it goes up as a podcast because then you are having to deal with audio callers,

call in right now. And then there's no calling in. You're have to go listen to that. That's not honoring the audience experience. And so what we did with Today NTO, the podcast I launched with 640, was take the best of what happened on the radio, but a thoughtful narrative and put it out as a podcast.

That was a good strategy. Some framing, right? Give us some context. Yes, yes. And so if you want the both to coexist, that's how they should coexist. And we proved that we could bring in money, that was new net revenue for the station,

through a thoughtful podcast strategy like that. So are you saying that the podcast, sorry, the radio listenership is not dwindling at all because of what's happening with the explosion of podcasts. I'm not saying that, but I'm saying that both can be successful if both. Remember you're under oath. I'm talking very intentionally. And if you still look at where do most audio listeners, what are audio listeners listening

to more radio radio still winning. If you look at the collective listenership. So say this again, radio still winning. If you look at the collective listenership. So say this again, radio still winning. If you listen to, like, if you clock, there's research done that shows where is audio being, like where are people getting their audio? What percentage is podcast? What's overall percentage of listeners

listening to radio versus podcasts? Radio still wins. And that passes your sniff test. Yes, but the numbers are dwindling. The numbers are dwindling and you have to be able to get, and it's because of an age thing. I think it's like the demographics. So once, if you could appeal to younger listeners for radio,

then those stats might be able to be plateaued where they're at. Well, you mentioned the demos and it doesn't take a rocket surgeon to tell you that the older the human, the more likely they are to consume radio. But this is also very North American. You have to remember this too. Globally, UK radio is still winning.

Canada has a problem, right? UK radio. But we live in Canada. I know, but you have to look globally. If BBC is able to figure it out, then why can't Canada mimic some problem, right? UK, radio. But we live in Canada. I know, but you have to look globally. If BBC is able to figure it out, then why can't Canada mimic some of those strategies? Because I don't have any large sample size to speak to,

except for I have a 20 year old and a 22 year old and I talk to their friends. It's a very, very small sample size. And none of them hear a minute of radio in any given month. It's because of what we've done to it. It's because of what we've done to it here in Canada. It's not respected.

Whereas in the UK and even in places like Denmark, it is like the most respectable place to work. Where here Seneca Polytechnic had to pause their radio intake, like sadly, because no one's applying for that program. But the same audience that hasn't listened to a minute of radio in for example in this calendar year for example is consuming everyday consuming podcasts and or YouTube shows

The same like they're consuming audio content Yeah, it's not dialing it up on a radio is not that hard of a sell to get people to radio if you were able to Offer them something that they wanted that's like audio is audio and they like it. Audio is not going anywhere as a form of storytelling. And that's where I think podcasting is going to continue to grow. If you look at the stats for a year over year listenership, the people who listen to podcasts the most, they call them super listeners, they're listening more year over year. They haven't plateaued yet.

So that's still growing. So speaking of the media sea of like live. So we're live at live.torontomike.com. And so Jeremy Hopkins says, he says he likes you being born Valentine's day because he was born the day before Valentine's day. So thank you, Jeremy Hopkins. And then I got Hayref who I know to be an accountant.

He comes to Toronto Mike listener experiences. And I really hope to see you Hayref at TMLX 17 on November 30th. But he says says it's funny We're gonna get back to this and we're gonna leave it because we don't have a lawyer on the call But anyone can be fired at any time without cause but you have to pay that person Severance and the amount depends on the person's age experience and length of service, etc So, I don't know. That's what I believe to be true, too

But you know what I'm just saying that we wouldn't do that. That wouldn't happen at course. There weren't, that wasn't even an option. Because they didn't have the money to pay the severance. And they wanted to prevent, even if you paid severance, you could still get sued. They wanted to mitigate red, it wanted to mitigate risk, which is a good thing to mitigate. I think that's smart. Or else all your time and resources get caught up in that. Okay. Everybody should listen to the last two Stafford episodes. I just think they're very enlightening. Okay. So Apple says, and I read this in your book, Apple says they're home to

over 2.6 million podcasts. That's, I think that's the number you quoted at me. Okay. So I hear this number 2.6 million and I think that they must be like they must either all mostly be dormant or shitty like like 2.6 million podcasts that number must include everyone who decided on a whim to do to do one episode and then walk away forever The problem with numbers and stats around how many podcasts are out there there? It's all baloney because we don't have but it's true in my book I see there's more than five million but like if something's up on YouTube and on Spotify, how are you able to count that as more than one to write? And Spotify and Apple are cross pollinating to so to see what podcasts are up on each.

And so if you publish one episode, are you a podcast? If you don't publish for three years, is it still a podcast? If you publish a YouTube video, that's just a chat, just a chat. Is that a podcast? Like we don't even have a proper definition. Well how do you define podcast? I think the original definition is what I like to live by, which is an audio file made available for streaming and download through an RSS feed. So I agree with you.

Yeah. That's the original definition, but it's evolving and I'm open. But there has to be that syndication mechanism. Peace to it, yeah. Our XML file to make it a podcast. Otherwise you're just an audio presentation. An audio story, yeah. But you know, it could evolve because the video element is very real

and people do listen to podcasts that way. And YouTube is trying to make a play for podcasts. So I wanna see where that all lands, but there's gonna be a world for video to be in. I hate YouTube as a podcast aggregator. I think it's terrible. But it's, they've just made so many moves to allow you to, do you know that you can now press a button and have your audio file just made into a video file and go on YouTube? Yeah, they got rid of that Google podcast and that's what they replaced it with.

So this is a move and that's only recent and that is going to only get better and better, that technology right now with it spits out is not great. But as AI develops, it's going to get better things that tick me off. So once they do that, so they take your RSS feed and they'll grab your MP3 file and then your title and description and your graphic and then they create this video on YouTube or whatever. Now that's etched in stone. It's like it's not even part all the downloads there aren't going to be downloaded from your

server. They took a copy. Yeah. So now there aren't going to be downloaded from your server anymore. They took a copy. Yeah. So now there's this different instance. And here's another thing. Let's say we record and afterwards you're like, Mike, my husband just called. Please can we remove his name from this podcast? He's his work is he's going to be whatever he's going to be.

You give me some sad story about how your husband's name has to come out of the podcast. Now I'm like, Amanda, I like you. I'll eliminate that name that you uttered in this podcast and I delete it. Now, this is only like a minute later, okay? So a minute after I published this podcast, I've made an edit and I'm now republishing the new audio. YouTube's not getting the new audio by default.

YouTube has to manually do it there. You have to go into, you log into YouTube and then say, go suck in the new thing. It's gonna get fixed though, come on. Like this is all stuff that AI's gonna fix in two seconds. But YouTube will host their own separate instance of this file and then it'll screw up in the new thing. It's gonna get fixed though. Come on, like this is all stuff that AI's gonna fix in two seconds. But YouTube will host their own separate instance of this file and then it'll screw up all the stats people. Okay, so I don't wanna get into, I just, I'm not a fan of that.

We're nerding out, yeah. We're not nerding out. I like to nerd out, but, but, but, but I'm wondering if it's now is the time for the Fred Patterson. But first let me ask you for your favorite podcasts. Like, like, like what is a, and I'm gonna stick to Canada if you don't mind, because so many Canadians are consuming so much US content. Like, can you drop the name of a successful independent podcaster in this wonderful country of Canada? So I definitely listen to CBC podcasts, which, but is that independent? It's not. No, I'm saying that you asked me what do I, you asked, well, this is a triple barrel question. You said, what do I listen to CBC podcasts, which is not. No, I'm saying that you asked me what do I do? Well, this is a triple barrel question.

You said, what do I listen to? Not I don't listen religiously, but there are certain shows that I really enjoy. And so I I just recently listened to Kid Nation, which was picking up and it's actually done in collaboration with a US outfit. So I thought it was very well produced and very interesting podcast. CBC does a good job. Yeah.

And I know that there are a lot of my personal. Okay, so this is the other thing too. If you ask me about personal listenership first professional listening, right? Like I listen to a lot of personal. Yeah. So personal, I'm not listening to a lot of Canadian content. That's the reality. And that's not to say there isn't good Canadian content coming out of Canada,

but there is room for more. And that's one of my biggest things as a con for consultation is to say, if you are Canadian, be uniquely Canadian because the market has space for you and Canadian listeners, research shows, they want to listen to more Canadian. This is my passion is the fact that to me. and again, it's funny, I had a woman named Do you know Katie lore? Yes.

She's mentioned in the book and she was part of our sound wave. So Katie's mentioned that. You didn't read the book very well. I read the book. I read the book. You can quiz me on it as we go except except for that question. So Katie, I did see your name in there. So the first question I had for Katie Laura is like to find podcasts and we couldn't even

agree what a podcast was. Now I loved my chat with Katie. I pulled a little clip later in my play, but I really enjoyed my chat with Katie. But one of the, you know, beefs I had that I think I, she was the victim of a couple of rants or whatever is the lack of quality independent Canadian podcasts. Because when you talk about a Canadian podcast, typically you'll end up at one of the big places like CBC, or maybe you'll end up at a place- Well, Canada True Crime, Christie Lee is doing an amazing job. Well, there you go. Now we're talking. Okay, so there's a-

Okay, but this is why I don't listen, but of course I respect her and I've interviewed her and chronicled her work. She's doing it out of the basement and doing it the first Canadian. Or one. Where is she in the country? Do you know? She's local. She's Toronto. Yeah.

Okay, what's her name? Kristy Lee. Kristy Lee has a true crime part. Canada True Crime. Okay. It's the, it charts always. It's like she wins a bunch of awards, but you have to be a True Crime fan.

She gets the awards, El Grego doesn't win. Yeah, well it's a different category too, right? It's the True Crime beat. She's really owning that space. And she's doing it, she was doing it out of her basement. Maybe still is. Okay, well you're in my basement right now. So shut up to Christy Lee.

So she's like, ew, yeah. Okay, okay. And is Christy Lee making money on her podcast, as far as you know? Okay, can we talk about that for a moment then? And a lot of this is covered in your book and people who are interested in podcasting should pick up. Let's Talk Podcasting by Amanda Capito

the essential guide to doing it right as a don't buy my guide which is the guide to doing it wrong. This is the one you get this is to do in a way I'm sure this is the most frequently asked question you get right there like Amanda. How do I mean I bought you your Great Lakes beer. I want a podcast but I want to make money off my podcast. What do you say to people? And sometimes they want to, they have the idea to make the money before they have the idea for what the podcast is about. Like it's like, I want a podcast to make money off it. Like, what do you tell people who want to make money off their podcast?

Yeah. Like I think that's, this is not the money tree that I would say don't make a podcast. Are you saying like, do it for love of the the podcast and then if you can, if it's successful and popular, you can monetize it, but don't do it to monetize. I think people have, you can still do it to monetize it. And I could talk about one that I did with that specific strategy, but just to answer the question, you can monetize it. But if you're like, this is my get rich quick scheme. No.

And that's what a lot of these gurus online will tell you. And that's false. It's like the dot com boom where it's like starting a blog and you'll be rich. And yes, some people did, but you can't replicate that. And you can definitely monetize and there are strategic ways to do it depending on what kind of show you have and what kind of monetization tactics you want to deploy. But if that's your number one goal is like,

I need to make some quick cash, I would say don't don't look to podcasting for quick cash. It's a labor of luck. You said you had an example. Okay, so it's in the book. So this is called the behind the scenes chapter for how to fall asleep fast. So this is a show that I launched with my company, but it's an original, it's not branded. It's at the back of the book in section five, which is behind the scenes. And I do behind the scenes a bunch of shows I've made. This is the one that hit number one in Apple within a month.

And I was trying to, and it was number one in the leisure category in Canada. And so here's how I did it. I found an SEO term. I started with SEO. Okay. Sleep. I wanted something around sleep. I knew this was a hot topic. How to fall asleep fast is the number one Googled term in Canada, US, UK, and Australia around sleep. So I titled it that. I bought all the domains.ca.net.org.io. And then I built a website and a show around that.

And then I made it, I think I make, you actually have to make a good show. So I made a show with my husband. You can't skip that step. Yeah, you gotta make an actual good show. And I did a show with my husband, as you know, Boris, I've mentioned him, he's actually a music producer as well. So he composed dreamy, sleepy music.

I did a one minute meditation off the top. And this is and we put it out there. We we launched it with the Sonar Network. So that's a local Canadian collective. And you want to know about good local. We're going to get into networks for sure. So someone I'm just taking a note here. Take a note, because you want to know about local independent. We're going to get into networks for sure. So I'm just taking a note here. Take a note because you want to know about local independent producers

doing great stuff. Go to that network. Erica Casupanen, who wrote the forward of my book, has a podcast called Happy to See Me. She's doing amazing work locally and doing very well. Just got five nominations with the Canadian Podcast Awards. But anyway, so we merged with them because we knew that they are great at promoting local independent, it shows are mostly were comedy and arts. So this fell into that arts category and BetterHelp sponsored us within what we launched in June. We got we hit number one that same month in the leisure category and because we promoted it and we could talk about promotion tactics and then we had better help sponsor us by September. So we were making

money pretty fast. Now quick question just to so I understand so better help is giving you money for the mentions or are they giving you money when your promo code is redeemed? No for the mentions. Okay that's a key differentiator because there's a lot of places out there that, you know, we'll give you whatever for your promo code, which is a whole different model. No, no, I got upfront money. We're getting money guaranteed.

No one uses the code. I've got money in my pocket. Look at you. Okay. Okay. So that's a great success story there. Now you mentioned the Sonar Network. So please tell us, tell me why does one, why would one want to be a part of a network?

Pros and cons to being part of a network. I chose to go part of this network in particular, because number one, they have a sales representative. So I tried to sell it actually myself, but I'm so busy and I don't have time to pound the pavement. I could have sold it. I just realized it's not a good use of my time. So they are the ones who sold better help podcast, the better help sponsorship for the podcast. Okay. So is it model where like, like Sonar takes a cut? Yes. Like they basically take a commission on the sale and you're on their network. So they

will, they'll sell you to better help. Exactly. And then depending on how much production support you need, your revenue split changes. So because we're self-produced, they're just literally hosting us on their Apple Podcast channel. So we're part of their channels. That's also good visibility for us. We're on their website and they have someone representing the shows where they can ink deals

that merge multiple shows and go, hey, we're gonna guarantee you this many listeners amongst five of our shows. And they sell collectively. And that's easier than selling just one podcast and showing your pedley little numbers. I'm not saying pedley little, but maybe a lackluster number. But that's a great question though. Like what is the minimum number of downloads before a place like BetterHelp is interested in even talking to you?

I don't know the BetterHelp specifics because I didn't ink that deal, but what I will say and in my book I write about. You wrote a book. I keep saying it. No, but I want to say, and in my book, I write about, you wrote a book. I keep saying it. No, but I want to say, cause I'm trying to give you an example of what kind of information is in the book. You know what I mean? Yeah, I'm listening.

Many people will say, Oh, you can't even be in conversation until you have 5,000 downloads an episode. This is like a number that people will say, or they'll say 10,000 downloads an episode. There's random numbers. I sold the today and TO podcast for sponsorship from Great Lakes before it launched. It's possible to do with zero. So the sponsor you sold was Great Lakes Brewery for Today in TO. I know. I just think that's a fun small world story. Of course. Don't you think that's a small world story?

But it's because they trusted the brand. They got aligned with the vision for it. And if you can get a local partner, amazing local partner like Great Lakes to come alongside your idea, maybe you will be able to get money with zero listeners, right, but with the promise of. See, I almost don't love that example only because that's a chorus thing.

Fine. So, and again, I know Great Lakes, they love that their new location, Jarvis and Queens Key, is a short walk from Chorus Key. And I think that if you remove the chorus part of Today in TO, it would be more difficult to get a sponsor before you have any downloads. It depends what your reputation is and who you're going to. That's what I would say.

And so yes, it would be hard if you were not in the media or public eye or never had experience with podcasts at all, and you were trying to sell maybe someone that you have no connection with cold email. Yeah, that'd be hard. But for instance, how to fall asleep fast with my background and my husband's background in music, putting those profiles together, and then going to very strategic sleep oriented companies. If that's the, that would have been the tactic. Right.

If I made the deck and I went to a couple, um, but I would have just had to go to many. And I'm, I feel confident that that would have been a sale I would have been able to make before the podcast launched. And, but Sonar had already a relationship with better help. Exactly. Hold you in and then that, that's because that is a very key missing element often with podcasting is kind of especially independent podcasters is like who's going to sell this now like who's going to be knocking on the doors and have to be you or someone that you have bring out bring on to do that or if you're part

of a collective then they're selling on your behalf and then that collective or network and then that's part of the revenue sharing. Yeah. Okay. So that's a good example. So there's a podcast, you made something from nothing and it became a, we can made money. Yeah. Awesome here. Okay. I'm going to hit you with the Freddie P question, just so I don't forget it. Then have more questions about ads. Okay. All right. Great. Fred Patterson listened to you on Ted Wallachian's show and the note I got, I'm just going to read it verbatim. All right.

Okay, Fred Patterson from Humble and Fred. Oh, that's not bad. If it was too bad, I wouldn't read it. Okay. Okay. Ask Amanda, considering she's a podcast expert, how she can do 45 minutes with Ted Wallachian about podcasting early adopters, monetization,

commitment, longevity, and success in Canada, and not mention Humble and Fred. Oh, sorry guys. And I do know them from being around Newstalk 1010. Yeah, they were involved there. I know. We've definitely crossed paths many times and they know this, that like actually at one point I had applied to be part of their show. And the Humble and Fred podcast yes I didn't even know this ever happened so I applied and I actually got a really kind

response I forget now those from humble or Fred but I applied when I was so I briefly went to North Bay okay to work in morning show radio as a on the FM side at moose FM and my time there was winding down. I had a feeling that my time might be winding down. Like I was ready to move to the next step and I had applied for that job and they wrote me back saying, you have such a strong demo, but you, maybe you're almost too strong of a woman on air presence to be joining my show. Because you'd bolt for real radio. I don't even really know what that meant.

But I thought, thank you. But I am curious. I didn't even, this is so foreign to me. So that was in 2013, 2014. I think that gig went to Kelly Catrera. Yeah, it might've. And then she bolted for regular radio. Yeah.

So she did. She was too strong for her. And then, and yeah. And then I'm just thinking of the lineage there and then it would be like, but they are a great example of being a worker. Yeah. They're a great example of being trailblazers in that space too, in, in the intersection of building off their radio presence and then transitioning into

podcasting. It's great. It's great what they did. I produced that show. Did you know that? No, see, we're learning about each other, Mike. They're fun. Fun fact that OK, and I can vouch because I produce that show. I can vouch for the fact that they do make

real money. So I read at this time of year, they broadcast four times a week, 730 a.m. in the morning. And I'll be on the show tomorrow morning. I do a hit every Thursday and They make actual money. So there's an example of an independent podcast. Yeah Making money you could make money. It's just as it's a long game. It's about consistency It's about building relationships like any sales deal would need to be and it's about really knowing your audience and being able like I think Money is to be made if you can hone in on a niche audience. So look at my sleep podcast

and then I go to sleep sponsors and it makes sense. Rather if you're just doing a chitty chat with anybody and then going, this is gonna be an international podcast and then trying to go for international brands, it's hard, that's hard. You're up against celebrities. So you'd have to, I recommend- Hold on to that celebrity thought

from when I play that clip of me on Katie Laura, with Katie Laura. Okay, okay. So ads, we're talking about ads, you're selling ads. Is this a pre-roll? Oh, on my sleep podcast? Yeah, like so, so as I understand it, there's like, you refer to the three styles of ads

that podcasts have. There's the pre-roll, which is basically, you just hear this canned ad that was recorded, like almost like it's on the radio or something. And then there's what you's what we call baked in ads where you would like sort of live on would say, hey, like I see I did baked in ads like about an hour ago.

These are baked in. These are baked in. Okay, there's no pre-rolls here. And then there's the faked in ads where it is an actual pre-roll, but it's made to sound like it's baked in. This is like faked in. Do I have the right three?

No, yeah, kind of. Okay, tell me where I screwed up. Okay, it's actually the three are actually dynamically inserted, baked in, faked in. Those are the three types. Pre-roll is just a placement. It's in the beginning, middle, or end. Pre-roll, mid-roll, end-roll.

So there's three spots within a podcast, and then there's three types. So pre-roll in the beginning, mid-roll in the middle, so you did a mid-roll, and then an end, an end-roll. Oh, so that's referring to the location of the ad as opposed to the type. And then the types of ads, baked in is what you did. Dynamically inserted means it's, you put a marker in the backend, it's popped in, it can be yanked out.

Faked in means it's dynamically inserted, but it sounds like it's baked in. So actually if you go, yeah. And if you go listen to how to fall asleep fast right now, those are faked in. So it's at the beginning, pre-roll, it sounds like it's baked in. But it's not a radio ad with a different voice.

It's me with music and I fade it out and then it goes into the podcast and you wouldn't really know whether or not it's baked in. There's no real way to tell by listening. Other than listening long and realizing it's not there at some point, right? Or it changes. So the faked in, are they different every episode?

So depends on what your deal is. So with with BetterHelp, our deal is that we have three different ads and then they rotate through. Gotcha. But yes, if you listen now to any episode, it's all the same one. But then at some point, it's going to switch within our within our contract. So if a deal like a contract that you have with a like a. Better help. Is there a minimum download requirement or something?

Or maybe if you don't hit this number, renewal becomes difficulty. I'm just curious, like if you know, oh yeah, we need ten thousand unique downloads or this deal that won't make sense for us going forward. So we talk about numbers in the beginning of like, here are the downloads so far. Here are the projected downloads. And keep in mind, we got a lesser, a smaller deal because we're not actively publishing right now. So this is a back catalog.

Oh, the back catalog is being, but even that I, we got a deal from a back catalog, not even active shows. So that's also, you know, sometimes people will think you can't do that, but yes, I'm here to say you can. And so yes, by the other, on the other side of it, I think it's for them, again, I wasn't in the negotiation, but my understanding is it's less about how many downloads,

but then they look at conversions and determine if they should renew. And even if we got a couple, that's going to bode really well for us. So that's where you get, even if your audience is small, but engaged, then you could still renew your contract and make money. It's not about a number. It's not, there's no magic number. Okay.

Let's talk next level of engagement. This might tie nicely. I know you had a nice chapter in your book about live shows. Yeah. Okay, so talk to me about the value of the live show and how that relates to sort of the podcast community. I'm really big on community, as I've said, and I think live shows are really special and they've been becoming more and more popular. And so you're going to a live audience. You are either recording a conversation like this. So there's a lot of conferences that will have a conversation

and they'll they'll say it's this is being recorded. It's a live podcast. But there's also the flip side where you actually do a podcast is coming like there have been podcasts that have come to like Roy Thompson Hall and soil sold out and did a live podcast performance. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Like a like a smart list or something. Exactly. Like they go on tours. And so we did one, and this is where Katie Lohr comes in. She emceed, um, the live, we did a, so myself, lead podcasting, um, Sonar network and Chenille network. We've come together and we ran the sound wave summit.

And I talk about this in the book this summer in June, and that's where How to Fall Sleep Fast debuted, so it helps with our numbers, strategic launch. Then we put on a Soundwave Summit, which was partially a showcase with a bunch of different thought leaders and panels. And then at night, or sorry, we did a showcase and a conference portion.

The showcase was all the live shows. And so the live shows, we did four live shows, Friday night style. And this is why Katie Lohr was involved with all of this and helped us MC the day portion. And we rented out a little venue in the back of Taco Taco and we performed all these shows live and brought all these different audiences together.

And I think that's really beautiful. And these are the types of things that I think are going to be. So those are less like listeners of the show. Like so I cause cause as these shows grow and wherever they get their own kind of community based base around them and then you could have, Hey, we're going to be live at this location at this time and you can come out and you can buy a ticket or maybe it's free. You know, it's depending what you're up to. We charged 65 bucks a ticket, and then there was four shows,

so it was four audiences' bases coming together to watch, and that's where you can cross-pollinate, help promote, and have an in-person live event. So these were pretty straightforward, they were all chat casts, it was just conversations. Except while we did do Squirrel Talk, which is Drag Queens, and they did a whole song and dance too as well.

Very engaging, and we had a quiz podcast who did a quiz with the audience, but you could play along at home with the podcast. So very fun, engaging shows. But there's also shows that are like narrative. And I have done one of these where I performed a narrative podcast that I created for a brand in front of a live audience. And I'm reading the script and I have an audio technician playing the clips and playing the music. So it's being like scored live. And that's like, that's an art. It's amazing.

It is amazing. Next time you should do your own firing off of the audio elements. Like you don't need the audio guy. That's even more amazing. I mean, some people do. I have seen that where the person who was reading it was doing it all themselves.

I've also heard there's somewhere they'll bring in a live orchestra and they will play the music live. That's my, that's a cool. Max Weinberg seven. That's who I'm going to hire to do my next podcast. Okay. Amazing. And again, I hope I now I really hope you do come to TMLX 17 just so you could see like what it's like when the Toronto Mike listeners get together for a live recording or whatever. Like just experience that and not just come for the delicious pasta and the delicious GLB. Now I did look at the

clock and I am sensitive so I'm going to burn through a few points here. Okay, I'll try to be quick. Well, it's not even for me. I was worried about you. No, I could stay if you want me to stay. Okay, because I can't remember our initial combo. I think we talked about an hour. It's okay. We could go longer. This is good. I think we're getting into some good- I blew by it. Okay. All right. Right. I need to know your thoughts Amanda Capito on the pivot to video Okay, how let's say you're a podcast and you're grooving along audio presentation theater of the mind and

Suddenly everyone in their grandmother and Nona I should say everyone in there Nona is like I need you to be on video now Like like tell me what your thoughts are on the pivot to video I think video can be very strategic depending on what your goals are. And I don't think everyone should pivot to video. So for instance, I'm doing narrative shows for some of my clients and it doesn't make sense to make that a video because I'm clipping and scripting and it's, you know, there's no.

Okay. Let's talk about the chat cast as you refer to it. We're doing one right now. Right. The chat cast. So where does your audience live? You're talking to a lot of radio people. Like I'm talking now, I'm consulting for you specifically. These are audio people. You're gonna send me an invoice? Yeah.

These are audio, you're gonna have to give me two lasagnas. So these are audio people. So is a video, is a YouTube component really integral for you, your show? No, because these are people who like to listen to audio. But if you have someone who is, for instance, I was consulting on a show with two influencers who already have a massive Instagram following.

Yes, that's gonna make sense for them to have a video because you already have people- Because their audience is already looking for visuals on Instagram. Yes, so you have to just think of it like that and go, where are your listeners? And what do they want from you? Do they want to see you? Joe Rogan fans, they want to see him and they want to see his guess. He's so good looking. Because of whatever his charm that he's done something right, right?

He's cultivated an audience on YouTube. That's where he began. So of course he has to continue doing video. Strategically, that makes sense. What I consult people to do, if they are like, I need to take advantage of the video game, but I wanna just do audio, here's an idea. It's not that crazy of an idea, but people don't seem to think of it.

Do your whole audio podcast. At the end, you go, hmm, what was like the, one of the best parts? Okay, the best part was when we broke down the three different types of ads. I'm gonna re-ask you that on video, and that's gonna be the clip I put out for video. Oh, like redo it.

Just one question. Just, you just want a hot clip. That's what people want. They just want a hot clip. They don't, I actually had someone ask me, can you make me a podcast? I don't actually want an RSS feed, nothing. I just want clips for social.

I said, so that's not a podcast. You just want social media content. So like, no, I'm not the right person to do this. I'm not a social media asset machine. I'm going to make you a great podcast. But if you really want that social asset, that's one way of doing it. Just re-ask the one. I mean, I've had people who said like, I want a podcast, but they actually just want a YouTube show. Yeah. They actually don't want a podcast. They want a YouTube show. This is why you have to understand what their ultimate goal Yeah. You don't want a podcast. They want a YouTube show. This is why you have to understand what their ultimate goal is. Like what?

Why? Why do you want it? Right. Okay. What a fascinating world we live in, right? And we're in the same circles here and I'm not quite done with you yet. Okay. You know, how's the beer by the way?

I'm still working on it. It's good. It's not a race. It's, uh, it's not about how fast. No, no, I got to enjoy every sip. That's my wife's favorite beer. It's good one. The lager, the premium lager.

Yeah. Delicious. And here I am with the burst over here. I love it very much. Although I think I am actually, oh, maybe we have a couple of sips left. Thanks to Great Lakes and also Great Lakes is sponsoring my launch party tomorrow. Great Lakes is the best. Okay.

So I produce their podcast. Yeah. Oh, between two fermenters. Yeah. It's amazing. I believe we're recording tomorrow afternoon. It's a great show. You should check it out, between two fermenters. Yeah. It's amazing. I believe we're recording tomorrow afternoon. It's a great show. You should check it out between two fermenters. You should check it out. Love Great Lakes. But they've hosted many a Toronto Mike listener

experience. I think the first three were there. That's great. And the band that played the first three, I think, I think it's the first three. I'm trying to jog my memory now. But the lead singer of that band is the aforementioned award-winning Al Grego. Isn't that a small world? Isn't everything, isn't it a tiny world we live in? It's coming together. Oh my goodness. We should talk more often, Amanda, come on.

Okay, pivot the video, we've talked about that. Yeah. Length of a podcast, okay? I think I heard you talk about this with Ted Walsh and like I have, obviously this is episode 1580. Like I have a few thoughts on all of this, you what do you think when somebody says how long should my podcast be? Hate that question there's no answer it depends give your content what it deserves and this is probably what I said to Ted I've done a couple interviews now so it's all a blur but I I say

it depends and also every episode can be a little different you don't have to hit a clock That's the beauty of this and so you can test and see hey my longer episode actually performed better Maybe I should try to do longer episodes But also we have really short microcasts becoming very popular with just a couple Tidbits five minutes in the morning people listen to as soon as they get up So it just depends what you're doing and what your audience expects and wants and then being being able to be flexible and not going Oh, it's 20 minutes now. We're cutting it off. So even right now you check the time bag Oh, no, I only check the time because I thought no no, I had to go. That's it. But that's what I'm saying It's like this is good conversation. It deserves to keep going. Well, you had me at hello

Have you heard Toronto mic'd okay, so Farah Nasser was a great guest in the backyard and then she had to go pick up her kids. And I think her final sentence was something to the effect of, we have to do this again. Uh, we have more to discuss. And then I never saw her again. Did you invite her to the show again? Oh, for sure. I'm sure I did. I'm sure I did. Well, also she's in the midst of a career transition right now, so she might want to come back once maybe she has her own podcast launched. Oh, this is a lead podcasting client.

No, I didn't say that. I didn't say that. I don't know. It ain't gonna be on Canada land. Okay. I am just supportive of her no matter where she goes or what she does. I think she's great.

And I actually, now that I think I'm trying to think, I think she was dear friends with, I produced a podcast that was hosted by Naomi Parnas, who was on CTV and I think they were tight too. I'm just trying to think, because Naomi I know through Dana Levinson, anyways, like I said, it's a small world. It's a small world after all.

Okay, so the length of a podcast. No rules for this. I hate this question too, but there, I find that with radio people who are starting to enter the podcast world, they're weird about the length question. That's why I have to tell them, break that school of thought. Like this is the differences.

That would be Ted Walshian, right? And that's a Fred Patterson. I think he once told me like nobody will listen to a podcast longer than, I can't remember what number he dropped. It was like 45 minutes or something like that. I mean, don't look at the Joe Rogan episode. Yeah, and Hardcore History, those episodes could be five hours with one guy talking and history fans love it. You just gotta know your audience. Yeah, some of my favorite Toronto Mic'd episodes

are north of two hours. Like, so it really depends. You have to kind of as a host self-regulate and know when you've run out of steam or whatever. Yeah, and if you're bored, like if you were bored in the, just like talk radio, if you're bored. Oh no, if I'm bored, I'll wrap it up at the hour mark or whatever. Yeah for sure for sure for sure

But some people will say hey that was too short like it did, you know And what I like about podcasting is that there's this magical thing called the pause button like so you can if you I'm going For a 45 minute walk or whatever. That's not the only key then you can pause it and pick it up later Like I do that all the time. Yeah, I do that all the time with the longer shows that I love and just pick it up later. Like it all fits together. I do that all the time. Yeah, I do that all the time with the longer shows that I love.

Okay, we're on the same page here. What about people who say, hey, I wanna play Led Zeppelin on my podcast? What do you say to the people who wanna play unlicensed music? I say, don't do it. It's like a tough conversation sometimes with clients as well who don't understand

that there's no international regulatory body to give you the license. So even if you get the license in Canada, how are you releasing your podcast only in Canada? Unless you- I had a fight with a guy on my blog, okay? But in fact, he said he paid Socan X dollars, I don't know what the X was,

but he paid Socan for a podcasting thing. And I was trying to explain to him that Spotify and YouTube don't give a shit about your Socan thing. Shit about Socan, no. Like it's useless, you gave them money, that may make you sleep better at night, but it actually won't help you.

It actually means you got swindled. Yeah, but I had this fight with them, and he's like, and then I literally, I pulled Alan Cross into this conversation just for backup or whatever, and then he just reiterated what you said, but I know this to be true, because I'm all over this world,

because I like to play unlicensed music on the podcast. But, well, okay, I say don't do unlicensed. Get your, get your, I pay for music, get a sound alike made. I work with original composer who just, you see, you really love a song. We'll do a sound alike, right? They changed, I don't know the math of make, change a couple notes here, there, there. It sounds kind of similar, but it's different. Do that. And well, of course, of course you're right, right? But, but you know, I'm the rebel without a cause. So I'm testing the water, but of course it's going to get taken down. It's going to get it. Especially as I mean, Apple is apparently the best at the detection. YouTube for sure

is actually in my experience without a doubt by far the best detections coming from Spotify. Is it now? Okay. I will never remove the podcast of Toronto mic. Then I do kick out the jams episodes. Okay. So it's like full John Lennon imagine whatever interesting Spotify bulk and this is only fairly recently I wonder if you're hosting site. Where do you who do you host? But I roll my own. I don't have I Colocate a server from my company in Guelph and I wrote I write my own XML and there's no there is no why that's probably I wonder if that's why you skirt the Apple algorithms of detection. Anyway, I don't know. I don't know.

But that, but I did have a moment in my life where a person from Spotify was talking to me about moving to megaphone for, cause I have a bunch of TMDS podcasts and I actually went for a bike ride and said, I'm going to make a choice on this bike ride, whether I move all my eggs into the Spotify megaphone bucket, or if I continue to roll my own on my own server, shout out to Ian service. So I talked to you just before you're pulled up here and do roll my own like organically or holistically. I don't know what term you choose, but I made the decision. I'd rather like fail in bed with Ian. Ian put on socks. Your feet are cold. I'd rather fail in bed with Ian

service in Guelph, Ontario, Canada, than succeed in bed with Spotify and be under their umbrella. Like this is just a personal choice I made. Yeah. Megaphone on Spotify for those who don't know that. But yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I don't blame you for that. I purposely did not get into this game, this part of the game. So all of lead podcasting shows are hosted royalty free stuff. Oh, sorry. You know, continue your thought. I thought you were an up of music. No, I'm saying about hosting. I'm just, well, I guess final thought is that everybody, all my clients host their own show. So actually I'm across multiple different hosting sites. Lead podcasting does not hold the keys. So that's what that's easier

for you guys because you don't have to worry about that coming back on you. But I mean also there's a monetization opportunity there too that like, and statistics you could have access to, like we've given that up because I also, I have no interest in building the network and like running that side of things. It's a whole other part of the business which is needed and there's lots of opportunity there,

but this is like for somebody else. But anyway, that's, so I don't have one. But maybe I don't, never even really considered why doesn't Apple bother me when I, you know, I have a popular podcast playing unlicensed music, but only fairly recently Spotify has started like bulk removing episodes. Like 150 are going to disappear next week. Like, because you know, when you're at, what am I at? 1580. Like, you know, yeah, we're going to all these jam kickings where you kicked out, uh, guns and roses or whatever Beatles or whatever.

So I admit when I, I do have these conversations with clients all the time, and I tell them not to use unlicensed music because you'll be deplatformed potentially, and we don't want to deal with that. So I always recommend the royalty free sound like stuff that you're referring to. But for my show, I got up, like I said, I got to be the rebel without a cause. Like I have to test them. I have to be the test guy. Right. You're pushing the boundaries. Right. Okay. But what's happening, just a little insight for the listenership is that my closing theme since day one has been Rosie engraved from Shakespeare, my butt, a lowest

of the low album I like very much. that gets picked up like but it gets picked up So YouTube will be like we're not removing it We're just demonetizing it which I don't really care because I don't care about being monetized on YouTube But it is it gets picked up by the algorithm. That's like it's owned by I think I think it's so many But I can't remember off top my head But I actually went to the guys who wrote the song and they're like, you know, you have our explicit permission to use it We have the rights whenever I'm like, well, yeah, but the algorithm doesn't know that that's like getting a SoCam license and the algorithm doesn't give a shit about your SoCam license.

So I am now thinking I might need to modify after 15, 80 episodes of Toronto mic, I might need to change the closing theme just so I could theoretically have an episode like this, which is completely free of DMCA, take down orders, et cetera, et cetera. Good idea. Okay. Thank you. Okay.

Celebrities. Yeah. Can I play the clip of me and Katie? I. Okay, thank you. Okay. Celebrities. Yeah. Can I play the clip of me and Katie and then you can respond? Can't wait, you've been teeing it up. Yeah, okay. Is that what we call it? Okay, I've been teeing it up. So this was Katie Lohr on Toronto Mic,

and then I kind of went off because I had a couple of GLBs, and that's what I do. Here we go. Problem I feel is this celebrity worship, which I fucking hate, by the way, because if I were a celebrity worshiper who only had on Gino Vanelli and Chuck D and Ron McLean, guess who would never be in my basement for an episode? Guess. I don't know. Katie lore. You would never be

here right now. If I only talk to famous people that celebrities that people want me to talk to, you would never get the call. Colin James, come on down. Okay. Katie lore would never ever be in this basement because you're not famous, not famous. No. So I don't want that show. I don't want that show, but everybody wants that show. And I mentioned earlier and I, I, I respect Wendy Leslie.

I don't know her that well, but I really like Maureen Holloway who's been over here several times, held my fourth born when she was a baby. I've got that photo. We're that close. She comes over, she holds the baby. I was with her BFF John Moore on Saturday night having a great chat. Maureen Holloway, shout out to John Moore. But these are famous people. Alan Zweig is a famous person, whether he likes it or not, he's a famous person, particularly in this country. And most of us, because before I ever met Alan Zweig, I would watch TVO at night and watch the vinyl, for example. And I would sit there and go, I like this. Who made this? This is right in my wheelhouse. I'm digging this vibe with this documentary. Oh, it's some guy named Alan Zweig. So Allen Zweig,

Wendy Mesley, Maureen Holloway, these are famous people. What the hell are guys like Toronto Mike and Leslie Taylor and Katie Lor supposed to fucking do when everything is about celebrity now? All right. So I'm just curious. That came out because I think it was a business source, but people, everybody wants a famous person. And then I really do mean it. Like not only, I don't think I'd have a Katie lore on, I don't think I'd have an Amanda Capito on if I was just caring about the number surge that will happen when I have that famous musician on or that famous person or whatever. But what is it with the celebrity worship in the podcasting game in 2024? Have

you noticed it? Okay, I have lots of thoughts. I think you have to determine your definition of celebrity. I mean, Toronto famous people like Maureen Holloway. Okay, because that's the other thing is like, and someone can become more Toronto famous overnight. So you, by having someone like Katie Lure on, and if she were to suddenly become quote unquote Toronto famous, which actually I think she has a lot of clout underneath her name, but she might become more, you know, more known.

A hundred people in the subway won't, 99 of them will have no clue who Katie Lure is, and then the other one might think they know. Right, but you know what I mean? And if that were to switch, you will have had her on the podcast. And in different niches, there's different types of celebrity. And so being strategic with saying, do I care about a number surge for right now verse,

am I going to try to predict a number surge, right? Of someone who's like rising verse, do I actually just want to build a relationship with this person? Because having someone on a podcast, you build a relationship. And maybe the strategic game is not about a number surge, but it's about being sitting face to face with someone for an hour that you would have never gotten an hour of FaceTime with otherwise, whether or not they're celebrity. So I think there definitely is the podcast celebrity. And when I use that word in the book,

I'm referring to people who are literally famous because of their podcast, right? So this is like the Alex Cooper of Call Her Daddy. She is now famous only because of her podcast. She became a podcast celebrity. Then there are literal literal A-list celebrities who are making podcasts and they are going to be successful because they are already celebrities. We have Amy Poehler as one to watch because she actually just started a

podcast production company. Her company is going to produce great shows because it's Amy Poehler behind it. And she hosts one of them in character, which is quite funny called Dr. Sheila, where she's basically doing a satire of all the therapy shows. This is a funny listen if you're interested. And then like locally for you, I think you are very in touch with a niche audience and all of your guests are very interesting

and are gonna draw an audience because of their name actually. Like Katie Lohr will get clicks on hers because of the audience you've cultivated. Lohr will get clicks on hers because of the audience you've cultivated. So in her own right, in your little community, she is a celebrity and you're serving that. I think it's good what you're doing. Serving a niche. Okay. So I should continue to talk to the Katie Lohr's even if they don't initially bring in the downloads of a Jim Cuddy or something like that.

Well, and also I think you kind of pander between music and radio. Well, I'm all over the, to be honest, sometimes as a Toronto Star journalist, there is no, I don't have a rule, like it's gotta be, I don't care. It's just been fewer radio people lately actually, simply because there's fewer radio people in the world.

That actually, well, not in the world, but in Canada, yeah. So yeah, Denmark, shut out the Denmark or whatever, okay? I world, but in Canada. Yeah. So yeah. Denmark, shadow the Denmark or whatever. Okay. You know, I don't, I don't care about Denmark. Like it's like everything's so hyper local to me. It's like, I care about Toronto, Ontario, Canada. But why can't you get inspiration from somewhere that's very similar in their way of life that can help influence Toronto, Ontario, Canada? That's what I've always said about even podcasting. Why don't we just look to our Southern neighbors and see what's working,

what's not, and then let's mimic it here, like even within the media landscape. I feel like that's what we literally, so our neighbors to the south, that's exactly what we do. And I think that's a big part of the problem is that we look down there and we're like, oh, you know, the big, what's the big thing? Smart List, I'm going to pick on them for a minute here. So Smart List is the big thing. These are three very, very forget Marine Hall. A-list celebrities. Yeah. These aren't Alan Zweig level celebrities.

The reason I brought up Alan Zweig in that clip, by the way, just for a little context, of course, is Katie Lohr had just produced Alan Zweig's podcast for Canada Land called The Worst Podcast. And then she quit that gig and she was going to an agency or something. But that literally that podcast, The Worst Podcast, and Alan Zweig is going to come over and talk about it shortly. But because he's got a new film he's wrapping up here, because that's what he does best. But the whole idea was to appeal to Americans with a celebrity podcast.

This is the six EPs behind this thing or whatever, Canada Land, were talking about they're going to do a celebrity podcast and they're going to appeal to Americans. And they gave it a new label. They called it Double Double. I know you know all this shit, but so this is literally what prompted that whole celebrity rant was the whole need for, you know, Alan's wide to talk to celebrities. But when I think Alan's wide would be more comfortable talking to like the last guest I had Colin Brunton, who directed the last POGO and is anything but a celebrity but is would be fascinating for Swaig to talk to.

What is the goal of your podcast, Mike? Mine? Yeah. Oh, the goal of my podcast is to create compelling content. So then it doesn't matter if you get celebrities and get a bump in listeners. Like you wanna have compelling conversations, so you just invite interesting people.

No, but I'm not, I will honestly tell you, I'm not just blowing smoke up your ass, because I'm not gonna edit a thing at the end of this. I'm telling you straight up that I do not book a guest based on their level of fame. Great. I think that's good and that aligns with your brand and aligns with what you just said is your mission. So good for you.

I think you're playing it right. Right. But I can go off on the zeitgeist and people I talk to who just are looking for bigger U.S. celebrities as guests. And then there's a pay to play game going on, which really offends me where you can have 20 minutes with, I don't know, Pamela Anderson or whatever, but it's not free. Like you have to literally pay an invoice

to get 20 minutes of Pamela. And you gotta, you get the boost from having Pamela Anderson on your show for 20 minutes. And I'm not saying she's charging. I'm just using her as that kind of celebrity. But then who sticks around? And like, what's the point of that, right? And you have to think I'm big strategy

Think big why would you want that quick boost and are they gonna stick around? Would you pay for a guest? No, I mean unless I had a strategy unless the client said hey I want an episode to cross a certain number and then I go right here's how we can do that But why do you want that getting to the reason getting to the why? For downloads. No, but if they just want downloads, then I'd run a strategic campaign and like a larger campaign across multiple episodes, not just one peak. But it might be easier to get downloads

if you just have, I don't know, Bad Bunny on your show for 20 minutes. Yeah, but then those numbers won't stay. They'll come. I don't think they care. They're following the name, and then if your podcast can't continue to serve names, you're gonna disappoint listeners,

and I don't wanna disappoint. You're gonna go broke hiring all these celebrities to be on your show here. I've never paid a penny for a guest, but I do pay in beer and lasagna. Yeah, that's a good deal. Yeah. Okay. So before we say goodbye, I think I said it an hour and I took 50% more than that. Is there any topic you want to discuss on the way out?

Like I enjoy talking podcasts, even though sometimes it riles me up and I'm not sure why, but I do love talking to people like you and Katie, people who are ready to come on and talk podcasting. I enjoy it thoroughly. And will you when you go back on Ted Wallace and show will you spend at least a half an hour talking about humble and Fred, humble and Fred. Good job. Okay. They're getting their shout out here.

They want their props. They feel slated because they, I mean, we started producing, I can tell you, because I was the technical producer at the time, it was 2006 when we started Humblin' Fred podcast. That's great, you know, that's great. They want, I can kind of get where they're coming. They just feel like they're overlooked by people

that have come on, Johnny Come Lately's have been on board talking about how hard it is to make money in this game. And meanwhile, they just celebrated 13 years and they make money at the game and they're just, I know they're listening and saying, you know, give us some props. Okay. So they can get their props, but also maybe they should be doing a little bit more media themselves and coming on other podcasts to give themselves props. I don't know. Your next edition of Let's Talk Podcasting, which is available now. It is available as of tomorrow.

You could pre-order it now, but tomorrow it's everywhere. This is the second edition. My first edition came out in 2018. And this has six new chapters. And I would say it's great for beginners, but it's also great for people who are intermediate and looking to level up. Level up and you're going to do a chapter on Humble and Fred next edition. Okay. Maybe if they pay me. A chapter on Humble and Fred next edition. Okay.

And you know what? A chapter, forget Humble and Fred, why am I doing this? Toronto Mike needs a chapter. This guy literally never, never on the radio, a guy in his fucking basement in South Etobicoke. Come on, that's worthy of a chapter. Okay, we'll talk, let's see. Maybe a whole book, actually, now that I think of it.

Maybe you should write your own book. Why should I set home? You write your own book, Mike, let's see. Maybe a whole book. Actually, now that I think about it, I said, Oh, you write your own book, Mike. Let's go. I can't even read a book and you want me to write a book here. Okay, Amanda, honestly, continued success. Farah Nasser looking forward to her podcast on the lead podcasting network. You don't have a network. You produce the show and it'll be on some platform, but I look forward to hearing that

and people should go to the launch party. Joey's at the Eden Center. That is tomorrow night. We're recording Wednesday November 13. Great book. Continued success. If radio calls tomorrow and says, look we need you, Amanda, come back to radio. Do you accept the charges? I'll take you on as a consult client. What if it's Metro Morning needs a new producer on CBC Radio 1? Love ya, but no. I have a company to run. And that brings us to the end of our 1580th show. You can follow me, go to torontomike.com. I'm digging Blue Sky lately.

This is where I've been digging. So torontomike.com is actually my username on Blue Sky, still on Twitter and elsewhere, but follow me somewhere for all your Toronto Mike needs. Much love to all who made this possible. That's Great Lakes Brewery, Palma Pasta, RecycleMyElectronics.ca, Raymond James Canada, Minaris, and Redlee Funeral Home. See you all Saturday when Steve Ryan

from CP24 is gonna drop by. We're gonna catch up, and he's gonna kick out the jams. His 10 favorite songs of all time. We'll see if it gets that episode booted from Spotify. What's the betting line on that? Looks pretty even right there. Steve Ryan, Saturday. See you all then. And your smile is fine and it's just like mine and it won't go away Cause everything is rosy and green

Well I've been told that there's a sucker born every day But I wonder who, yeah I wonder who Maybe the one who's hasn't realized There's a thousand shades of gray Cause I know that's true, yes I do I know it's true, yeah I know it's true, how about you? All them pickin' up trash and they're putting down ropes