Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - Amber Gero: Toronto Mike'd #115

Episode Date: March 19, 2015

Mike chats with former Newstalk 1010 reporter Amber Gero about the lack of diversity in Toronto radio.

Welcome to episode 115 of Toronto Mic'd, a weekly podcast about anything and everything, often with a distinctly Toronto flavour. I'm Mike from torontomic.com and joining me this week is former News Talk 1010 journalist Amber Giro. And as you said, it's Giro. It rhymes with hero. Hero with a G. And I was thinking, is it like Claude Giraud? And you were telling me there's French roots here. Yes, it is a French name,

but it's been, I guess, through the slavery days, it was brought down and shortened it and anglicized it, and it's G-E-R-O now for us. Now, it's up to you to restore it to its original. Yes, I could very well do that. Amber Giroux. I like it. Do you ever...

So when I heard Amber was coming on my podcast, this is the song that went in my head. Are you familiar with this song? No. I love it, though. I'm going to let a simmer of it. You're liking what I hear. It's 311. It was a big, like... Here.

There you go. This is your song. This is my song now. When you walk into a room, this should be playing. Anyway, 311 had a bunch of radio hits i want to say like early 2000s could be late 90s my memory i get so blurry now but amber was one of their big like radio hits you would heard it on like cfny yeah it sounds great i'm loving it

this is gonna be my new theme song i'm sending you a copy please do please do i will so a couple other notes uh before we jump into the good stuff um i don't think it'll ever sound cooler than i do today because i haven't had a voice since monday is it good i love it that raspy voice it's great radio i've never been complimented on my voice so i'm gonna like record all my episodes when i have i don't know what it is larynge i don't know what it is, laryngitis. I don't know what it is, but I feel great. Get it again. Yes. And that way you have that. And keep it.

And keep it. And this is the March break. So I mentioned to you before we started recording, literally around the corner from you, there's a teenager sleeping. So I warned him that there would be an early morning visitor. Just like the bathroom's there and he's sleeping. And this is great for podcasts when I point point places but like he literally i could see like this big teenager just rolling going around the corner to go to the washroom and like here we are recording you don't need to see that and you

don't need to see that i just i warned him though he'll sleep solid for another until at least noon so no problem and whereabouts in the city did you come from today? I came from Scarborough. I live in Scarborough. That's a long way because we're in the other... Are you north or south? Actually, I'm south Scarborough. Okay, good. That's actually not bad.

Yes, not too bad, not too bad. But I love Scarborough. I love where I live. I've lived in Scarborough ever since I moved here from Nova Scotia. Okay, when did you move here from Nova Scotia? I was around 12. I was 12. Cool. Yeah, Scarborough. I'm move here from Nova Scotia? I was around 12. Okay. I was 12. Cool.

Uh, yeah. Scarborough. I'm actually, that's like a part of the city. I'm not that familiar with. I'm familiar with the South end, but not too much the North end. Beautiful, beautiful parks, beautiful communities. I really love Scarborough. It's a great place.

My buddy Bingo Bob and I have a discussion. Like we have an argument all the time. Like I defend like West of young and he defends east of Yonge. And now I'm starting to come up with... I see what he's talking about. I'm telling you. The more time I spend... I'll go bike to Kew Gardens or something. Yes.

It's a beautiful area there, too. Yeah. Come to the borough. I'll take you around. Anytime. That's a deal. The city's not that big. I can't be Toronto Mike and like, oh, just west of Yonge Mike.

Exactly. Forget it. Okay. I just west of young Mike. Forget it. Okay. I just, yeah. Okay. Perfect. I just want to make sure 311 ended before we began. Okay.

I'm talking to you today because, and for context, I never ask this question, but I'm going to ask it because this is audio. People can't see you. So before we even talk about this, how do you identify? Do you identify yourself as black? Yes, absolutely. When you look at me, that's what you see. I also do, though, have Scottish blood in me. My grandmother's Scottish. My other grandmother's part native. So I do have a little mix going on there. But I obviously identify as a black woman. OK, so for the record, we have a black woman talking to me today, you know,

cause on the radio, I guess I don't think you ever know. You never know. It's hard to tell. It really is. I mean, it's hard to tell. And a lot of people, when they meet me, they were like, really? You're Amber Giro? I never knew you were black. And I'm like, okay. I don't know. Is that a good thing? No, I was going to say, as long as you never apologize for that. Oh, no. Absolutely not. And we'll get into this more, but you sent out some tweets here. I want to get some specifics here. March 14th, 2015. So that's not that long ago now.

I've lost track of the days because it's March break. But March 15th, you sent out a series of tweets. And then somebody mentioned, hey, Amber from formerly of 1010 has sent out these tweets and you should look at these. I couldn't believe how honest and forthcoming

they were. And then I actually wrote an entry about them. And then the more I read them, the more I realized I need to find out more about what's going on here. Because first thing I did, and we'll talk specifically about the tweets and then I want to hear from you uh but first thing I did was I kind of looked at the lineup so I looked at like what does 640 have who's 640 people you have during the day like who are the 1010 people and 590 and 1050 like all the talk radio stations and like just for example at 640 you got like a guy named oakley and then you

got a guy named bill carroll and then you got like a mike stafford who was here a couple weeks i worked with all three of those men by the way and i have a lot of respect for them yeah uh i've only met mike stafford but he was he was pretty awesome and then uh a guy named macarthur like bottom line is not only are we talking like you know older white guys but like they could all be like from like either ireland or northern ireland or england you know what i mean like they're all from like the small part of europe and then it's not much different i know barb di giulio who was on previously and she was let go at the fan 590 for no particularly good reason which we'll get into later actually but uh she does, you know, she co-hosts something on CFRB, News Talk 1010, they want me to call it.

But there's mainly white guys there. Yeah, absolutely. If you look at the number of hosts, I think there's some 34 plus hosts and only a few are women and only two can identify themselves as being non-white. So really, you know, looking in the grand scheme of things, how diverse is it? Who are the two? The two? Well, Paige Henn, who has a slot on the weekend. And also a new gentleman, I believe Desmond Cole, who has only recently been given a show.

These are two recent shows. He's good. He writes for Torontoist and yeah, he's good. He is. He is good. And it's great. It's too bad he's shoved into a one hour slot once a week on the weekend, but. And that's like the dead zone, right?

The weekend. I mean, right. Pretty much. Who's sitting inside listening to me. They offer me a show on the weekends. Oh, just kidding. No one's offered me a show on the weekends, but I'm sure Mike Ben Dixon will be calling me up later, but see if I'll do a show on the weekend. But, uh, okay. So first of all, can I ask what you've been up to?

So you were let go, you were let go by News 10's News Talk 1010 last August. Yes. You and two other, uh, two others. Who are the two others that day? Uh? Evelyn Macko was also let go that day, as well as Katie Franzios. Evelyn Macko. She's been around. I remember her from like 680. She's a veteran. She's a hardcore newswoman. Great at what she does.

And it was really sad to see three women who had been at the company the longest. And basically one felt swoop and we were gone. And how long were you there? 14 plus years. I started in high school, went away to college and was hired back by Bill Carroll. And I've been there for 14, more than 14 years now. Wow. You know, I don't know.

Do you remember when 680 News was like simulcast on CFMT? Like, do you remember. Do you remember this? Evelyn Macko was on the television. I remember. Yes, yes, she was. I love Evelyn. Great woman. Yeah, she had that great voice too.

And what was the Dick Smythe? Do you remember this Dick Smythe? Yes, I remember Dick Smythe. I just remember. I just had a Dick Smythe flashback. Maybe that's the medications thing. I'm sorry. So you were let go in August.

And what have you been up to since August? Since then, I've been working on my own business. My boyfriend and I actually started a business a few years ago. So I've been doing that. I am eager to get back into radio. I've got that radio bug in me. It's been in me since high school. So I would love to get back into the industry.

Finding it a little more difficult than I thought it was going to be considering I'm a two-time RTNDA award winner. And I have a lot of experience, obviously I was kept around for more than 14 years for a reason, but you know what? Focusing on my own business is great too. We're building up, getting more and more contracts. And I love what I do. Like what kind of business? It's actually a contracting business. Now, when I met my boyfriend, he was the high rise window cleaner. Okay. The ones hanging off the chairs. Yes.

The ones on the stage. The crazy ones. All the crazy ones. He still does that. But now he also does it for our own company. So it's scary still for me. I don't have to do that high rise stuff, but I go in and I get dirty when I need to. No, good.

And before we get into that, and I get a lot of preamble here, but did you have any concern before you clicked submit on these tweets that this, considering the radio, there's only three companies owning most of the stage. It's really tough for that. Did you worry about burning bridges or being like somebody labeling you as, I don't know, outspoken and troublesome. Oh, yes.

They don't want to run through your head. I've received emails about that. I've received tweets about that. People concerned, like, aren't you worried that you're never going to get a job in the industry again? Why? What am I saying that isn't true? What am I saying that is so outrageous? I should be able to speak my mind.

I've been in the industry for more than 14 years and not much has really changed over those 14 years. So you know what? I have no ties to any company right now. I have ties to myself. My loyalties are to myself. And when I want to speak up about something that I think is wrong, I'm going to do it. Which is courageous and awesome from my perspective, but I'm not the one who has to, you know, be applying for jobs and whatever. Exactly. So I can see why somebody would want to send tweets like that and then would change their mind. Yeah, and be apologetic and,

oh, you know actually what I meant to say. No, I meant what I said. It's as simple as that. Like that commenter said that you had, it was like, I think you sent them at something like three in the morning or something. It sounds like you had a few minutes. Oh, I was drunk.. Oh yes. Drunk. Hi, whatever they want to say. No, actually I was always a night owl and I was a morning reporter for many years where I was up at three in the morning. It drives my

boyfriend and my dogs nuts, but I'm up at that hour. I'm sorry. It happens. And now that I can sleep in as late as I want and I own my own company, guess what? I'm going to sleep in. I'm going to stay up as late as I want. And if I see something that bothers me, I might tweet about it. And you haven't deleted these tweets. No, I have not. You had no remorse or. No, I do not.

Okay, good. Now that we've set that stage here, you've been at News Talk 1010 for 14 years. Let go of Last Talk. Oh, yeah, that's the other thing. So was there salary continuance or something that made you bite your tongue until a few days ago like was that day's symbolic in any way it was not symbolic in any way i mean obviously after 14 years i did walk away with something but it this date has nothing to do with it in fact the reason i tweeted what i tweeted is because of all of the racial tensions in the u.s and i heard all this stuff going on with people commenting on stuff that's happening in

Ferguson, Missouri. And I'm like, all of them are white men sitting around the table trying to explain what's happening and how minorities would feel in these areas. Like it's absolutely ridiculous to me. You know, I was watching the national the other day and they had a panel for people all white and they were talking about diversity in yeah america because and i had the same reaction

which is what a great like panel to talk about racial like i guess i should disclose here in case anyone does i'm a white male i guess that you're very white oh i'm sick amber i'm sick come on uh i'm very white yeah i'm very white and And, you know, I would never feel like I could speak about something like the plight of African-American male or anything of that nature. Like, who am I to't think that white men should have a voice or that people who are different ethnicities shouldn't be able to talk about these things. Nowhere did I say that. Of course, you want all sides of the spectrum, but at least have one minority, at least have one black person talking about an issue that affects black people. The token black man, like in the horror movies movies is going to be killed very early on. That's right.

The credits come, bam. I'm going to read some of your tweets and then I'm going to ask some questions. Absolutely. This is from you on your Twitter feed, which I'll say at the end, but it's at A-G-E-R-O. People know I'm not making these up.

They're too good to be true. I cannot for the life of me understand why stations that have no black content or presenters have the audacity to think they can understand. So that's relating to what you just said, which is about you can't speak about Ferguson or racial diversity when you're all white. Well, that's the thing. Where's the perspective, right? Where is the perspective?

How can you talk about an issue that affects a large group of minorities? I mean, and these are issues that are ongoing. I mean, I didn't think in today's day that I would be dealing with or seeing the same stories that unfolded when my grandmother was alive today. today. And to have all white people talking about these issues, all white men talking about these issues with no perspective from minorities is beyond ridiculous to me. All right, fair enough. And were you speaking specifically about 1010 or was that just a general Toronto radio? Pretty much Toronto radio. 1010 is one of the ones that shines because obviously I work there. Well, you know it best. I know So you know, I know what you know. Absolutely.

But really look at the spectrum of talk radio in this city. Where are the minorities? I mean, 1010 has a recent hire as we spoke about Desmond Cole, but after 14 years, I mean, one guy other than spider Jones, when I first started,

I love him. I just like doing the image. I remember him from Fan 590. He used to call me Amber Girero. I loved it. He's a boxing guy, right? I let him go. He's a big boxing guy.

He is. He's a great guy. Very intelligent and a very strong member of the black community. I'm going to get him in here. You should. I will. For sure. I do want to get Spider Jones in here.

One more tweet you tweeted out was this i have no patience for those organized for these organizations that try to pretend that they are inclusive and respectful of all races when they aren't you were just elaborating on the point you know twitter's got this character limit you can't you can't do yeah 140 characters like and you know you're there furiously tweeting because you're thinking, really, how are these people describing an issue that they can only see from one perspective? How can you do that? How can you talk about the racial tensions not only in the U.S., but here in Canada? It's happening, people.

Wake up. And only come from the perspective of being a middle-aged white guy. No, good point. And here's one more. Just take a good look at the places I used to work. What do you see? A good reflection of the people of Toronto? I think not.

Okay, this point, I want to say a couple of things about this point. One is when the elections happened recently and John Tory became mayor, one of the things I... I don't know what percentage of Toronto would identify as black. Do you have any clue? I don't know about what percentage would identify as black, but I know it's in the 30, high 30 percentage that would identify as being non-white or visible minorities. Right. So yeah. Okay, good. I know that for example, downtown, like if there's chinatown downtown which is you know very asian and uh you know so uh all the counselors i i think there's i'm just

gonna speak about black right now because i do believe there's a couple of asian counselors but there's one black counselor right michael thompson right and and we got how many was it 43 was the number something like that uh 43 counselors 44 i believe yeah maybe maybe something like that uh that sounds disproportionate like there seems to be a disproportionate number of white counselors absolutely and it's not that there aren't intelligent hard-working black people out there who would be able to fill the position uh just look look at this dynamic of the city and look at the dynamic of city council. It doesn't reflect at all. So there's something wrong.

And radio, to get us back to radio here, are you suggesting that basically, are you suggesting that News Talk 1010, it's too white? I wouldn't say it's too white. I would say it's not reflective of the listenership. It's not reflective of the listenership. It's not reflective of the community. And if you want to call that too white, because pretty much most of the people there are white, well. And male, I guess we talked about that as well. So how did that come to be?

Like, I guess I'm trying to understand, do you think News Talk 1010 is doing this subconsciously or intentionally, more consciously? Like, basically, do you have any theories or hypotheses about why this is the case? Honestly, it's difficult for me to say because I can't pretend to understand what's going on in the heads of the people higher up. But it seems like they hire people with like minded lifestyles, like-minded opinions. And if you don't fit into that box or that category to suit the station, then you're of no use, really. I mean, there have been plenty of Black commentators or Black professionals who have come on the station and who have contributed to certain topics on the station. And I know for a fact that some of them were interested in having shows on the station. And they just kind of looked around and said,

you know what, this obviously isn't going to happen. I know one in particular, a pretty prominent attorney who actually pulled me aside one day at City Hall and said, I really want to speak to your boss about the lack of diversity on the station. He's like, why is it that every single show is hosted by a white guy? And he said, where are you in all of this?

And obviously I'm working for the station. I'm not going to start bad mouthing them. And I don't even want to bad mouth them now. I'm saying that it's a problem and it's a problem that has to be dealt with. But this was a professional, well-spoken black attorney and advocate for the black community. And even he had to pull me aside

and say what's going on at the station how long have you been there are there any other black people there and i can tell you one thing after 14 years of working in that news department there was only one other regular full-time black person and she was an audio editor so really there was no black full-time black reporters, no black anchors. And of the anchors who are on the air, just take a look at the lineup. They're mostly men. All the women are either doing the overnight shift, the weekend shift, or if they're reporters, they're putting crappy shifts.

So we identify it's not reflective of the city, but you're not going to go so far as to suggest there's actually you know racism at play here like like who for who was your boss at 1010 well my boss was different people at different times when i was leaving mike ben dixon now right ben dixon is you know the guy above the manager who would be the news director so he was the level above that the program the brand manager okay but do you believe he hires the best person for the job? Or do you think he's looking for a type that sort of satisfies the, I'm going to use a term I call AM talk radio to me is often angry white man radio.

Okay. Like, are we trying to find people angry white men can identify with? Honestly, I can't say what Mike Ben Dixon is thinking. I can't say what's going on in his head. Do I find that a lot of the hires fit the box of what he's looking for? Yes. I mean, Mike Ben Dixon is a middle-aged white guy. So really, who's representing on the station? A lot of middle-aged white guys. Is it possible that the listener is a middle aged white guy? Absolutely. Absolutely. So I'm just wondering, like, do they have to reflect the city or do they have to reflect the listenership? And is this a conscious decision to reflect the listenership? There are a lot of minorities who listen to News Talk 1010, just listen to when they open the phones and open the lines. It's not all white guys calling in. It's not all men calling in. So they have to reflect both the listenership and the community that they're supposed to be

trying to engage in these discussions that really affect us all. And I think I might have interrupted you. You were going to say something after I asked if, is there an element of racism at play? element of racism at play? For me personally, I felt that there was an element of racism. I felt that because I was being treated differently than pretty much everybody else on staff in certain circumstances, like what were the reasons? I was hardworking. I was winning awards. I was getting the respect of the listenership. So really, I have personal experiences where I know that my race came into play. Okay, that's interesting. So you actually, you believe you were treated differently because of the color of your skin?

I believe at times I was. I believe at times I was. And I will go beyond that. I believe I was also treated differently as were other female anchors and reporters because we were women. Men at the station are treated like gods. They are treated like gods. Women will be berated in front of their own fellow employees, will be slammed, talked down to, put in impossible situations. It's really, it was very evident while I was there that there were not only, there was not only favoritism for men, but favoritism for the white reporters over, say, the two only black people who were in the newsroom. Okay. So this, okay. So I'm just trying to, so it's possible though, that this treatment may be because you were a woman, not because you

were black, because there's no way I guess to know. It's one of those. It's hard to know. It's what I felt. It's what I felt. You know, I mean, if there was fairness, then there wouldn't be things called pay equity, you know, reparations. Sure, sure. Okay.

And that happened to me during my course there. Okay. So I know. So that means that you were paid less than you should have? Interesting. I was paid less than other people who were doing the exact same job, whether they were female or male. And I was the only black reporter. So what's the difference? I know for a fact that there were female during my course at News Talk 1010, that there were white female reporters who were doing the exact same job as me, working the exact same hours as me, who were getting paid way more

than I was. And it wasn't about experience. I also know that there were men getting paid way more than I was for doing the exact same job. I also know that I started a seven hour shift at that station. It got pushed to an eight hour shift with no change in pay, then got pushed to a 10 hour shift. Like they were, I was going in at four in the morning, working till nine on the desk, editing news. And then they'd be like, now you have to go out and work nine to two. That's a 10 hour shift and no break. So tell me how you can do that to the one person in the newsroom who's of color does that not like raise questions one thing is uh whether it's racist or not the optics suck the optics were pretty crappy and frankly i looked around and saw that nobody else looked like me who was getting treated this way

so did you ever approach somebody in man management or hr i don't know. I know you had a few owners. Don't even make me go there. Oh, yeah. No, you got to go there. It's the rule. Well, here's the thing. Every time I did approach management about why are you arbitrarily giving me a 10 hour shift when no other reporter is getting the shift? Why are you turning my life upside down and telling me now that I've got to go and do stories like they would schedule stories within an hour of my shift ending schedule it stuff we knew was coming and this would be a constant thing and I'm like how do you wrap a story in one hour update the website tweet it all of that stuff go to management oh well I was just being a bee oh I was just showing attitude oh another angry black woman.

Ooh. But they're not saying that. No. Okay. Yeah. I got to be clear. They threw out the, oh, well, you know, well, listen here. We got to check your attitude.

My attitude for being mistreated, my attitude for you extending my shift to 10 hours with no break. That sounds like fair. I mean, there's labor laws against that. So how is it that you think you can get away with doing it to me? Do you want to know why? Because as the only black person on the air and as the only black person around, I wasn't going to jump ship because of the simple reason that I knew where else, who else is going to hire me? Like, what am I leaving for? I wanted the experience. The people I worked with were excellent. I learned so much from them. I have the utmost respect for all of the people I worked with. The people I worked for, another question.

Jim Richards is a good guy. Oh, he's a great guy. He's the only guy I know over there and I think he's a great guy. I just want to make sure I'm right. Yeah, he's amazing. He's so funny. He's just as funny off the air as he is on the air. He's a great guy. You know, he's a Strombo shadow. If you ever see Strombo around, you know, Jim Richards is his shadow. Yes, they're very close. Besties. I love it. It's a great relationship they have. Yeah. You know, Strombo on this podcast identified himself as ethnic. How does that make you, a real quick question off the top of my head.

How does that make you feel? Like he thinks he's ethnic because he's got a Greek name and he's a Greek ancestry. But that's, come on, that's not really ethnic in Canada, right? That to me doesn't say ethnic. Doesn't cut the mustard as ethnic. Somebody's got to look at you and say, you're obviously not white or you're obviously not from around here or you're obviously not Canadian. To this day, I have people when I tell them I'm from Nova Scotia say, no, but where are you really from? Oh yeah. Oh, it's gotta be Jamaica. Oh, it's gotta be, you know, one of the islands. Um, I'm sorry. My family's been here from the 1600s. We were black loyalists.

We came up from the underground railroad. We fought in the civil war down South. So yeah, I'm about as Canadian as they get. So yeah, exactly. All right. Crazy. Um, do you believe, so you're talking about this unfairness and management didn't seem to help. And so that angry black woman was not a direct quote. That's just how it came across. It was always about, well, what's wrong with you?

What's your problem? It was never about the way I was being treated. It was never about how can you expand a shift to 10 hours with no break, with no warning. And, you know, it was ridiculous. In your opinion, if you were a white male, they would not have done this to you. know for a fact that when it came to situations on the air or things that went wrong, it was me to blame. Like when I can give you a specific example, there was a time that I was just walking through city hall because I had to go to a court case. It was the second part of my shift. I'm just walking through. Well, a cameraman comes running up to me because I made a lot of friends with the cameraman, with the reporters comes running up to me and says, hey, Mayor Ford's going to be doing something in like two minutes.

OK, well, it's not my beat, but I called the station. I emailed them. I say this is happening right now. I'm just walking through. I still have time to get to my other story. So I'm like, OK, you know what? I'm going to run up and make sure we're there. I run up with my phone, my recorder.

I had those on me, but I didn't have one piece of equipment that allows you to broadcast live. This is not my story. There's another reporter from our station on this beat, a white man who comes up late. I'm there for the story. I told them basically what it was going to be, that it was just going to be the mayor saying, yes, yes, the budget's passed. And so I'm getting email after email after email from my boss basically slamming me. Why didn't you have this piece of equipment? Why didn't you have this on your person at all times? Lady, I'm just going in to use the washroom, first of all. Like, this was me finding out information, getting it to them, and getting there.

This was not even my story. So to make a long story short, at the end of the day, I come back to that white male reporter who didn't arrive on time for the start of the news conference. I'm like, so were you getting these emails too? Like, you know, were they emailing you back and forth too? No. What? No, I didn't get any emails. What would I, what for? what? No, I didn't get any emails. What would I, what for? It's not even my story. So really. And, and okay. And I got to ask about some ownership here for a minute. So you were there 14, first of all, how did you last 14 years in that environment? That's a long time. Honestly, I don't know. I really don't know. It doesn't sound like fun. It wasn't fun at times, but other times it was amazing. Other times it was incredible.

And as I said, I love the people I worked with. I learned so much from people like Dave Agar, from Bill Carroll, from people like that, Dave Trafford, all wonderful people who took me under their wing and who taught me everything I know in this industry. And that is why I stayed. The experience was invaluable to me. But the way I was treated was not very good. But like you said earlier, you don't want to bite the hand that feeds you. So you're not going to say anything in public about this. Management's not helping. And then you're let go.

And I guess, so this, in fact, let me read one more tweet, actually, which ties into that. For the past 14 years, I've held my tongue about the rampant racism and sexism in the industry that I love, but no more. And then I'm counting five exclamation marks. I never see five exclamation marks. I'm free to finally speak my mind. It's as simple as that. This date, like I asked earlier about salary continues. I thought in my head maybe, oh, maybe there was like an NDA or something that expired or something.

Nope. Just an arbitrary date where you just said enough is enough. This was just, there was something going on in Ferguson, Missouri. I was listening to the station and I was listening to some stuff going on and I kind of flicked through Toronto radio. And as I said, I heard all white guys talking about it. The white men chimed in on Ferguson. That's what actually triggered it. And it just blew my mind.

Yeah. I mean, and to this day, there's no black people in the news department at News Talk 1010. How many people in the news department at 1010? There's more than a dozen. I'd say probably about 14, 15 people maybe. So 15 white people. Yeah. But there are some women there.

There are some very intelligent, strong women. I've had a woman on the show, Siobhan Morris. Great girl. Okay. She's a good reporter. Definitely white, but definitely female. Yes. Star there for a good hour.

Yeah. Okay. Smart lady. I'm not saying anybody who's on the air doesn't deserve to have their job. They're all incredible people. They're great at what they do. I'm saying that management needs to have a different mindset. Open the doors a little for people.

Okay, but you're not suggesting we implement like a quota or anything like that. No, listen here. Okay, there's no black person around that wants to be a pity quota hire. Okay, so they can end that right there. I saw tweets about that too. Like more angry white men. Well, what do you want us to do? Open the doors and just say we have to have black people?

No, no, no. There are smart black people who were on this station at one point. There are still smart black people who would love to have shows on this station. They're just not given the opportunity. Do you believe if you were a white man that you would not have been let go last August? No, white men were Not from my station. I did. First of all, I did actually notice that, and it wasn't just the Bell-owned News Talk 1010.

I noticed it on Rogers stations. I noticed it on a series of stations. Veteran female radio personalities being let go. And I noticed it on television too. People like Ann Marszkowski and things like that. Gordon Martineau, he's going to die on that. He's going to have a heart attack one day doing city news hopefully he's an old man but he's gonna be there forever yeah uh ann morszkowski got fired from there and then went on to global

and got fired from there and ann morszkowski i think she's a i don't think she's a great broadcaster she is she is strong woman great broadcaster, but really. But Barb DiGiulio, so I asked her straight out. Like, you know, Barb DiGiulio was, she was at the fan for longer than you were even at News Talk. She was there a long time. No one ever said, oh, Barb's a problem, like bad journalist. You know, Barb did her job, did everything she was asked to do, did all the shitty stuff they asked her to do,

everything she was supposed to do to the best of her ability. She, you know, was charming and great and good good communicator and then she's axed and then she didn't say this is my words now but you know replaced with a very young person making one-third the salary and so yeah that's happening a lot so um it's almost like i i don't i can't speak to the racism. Like I, I really am curious on your input on that, obviously, but I did detect a misogynist undertones in the, in the, in the media. And as I said numerous times, the men at the station were treated like gods, the women not so much. I mean, I watched as a fellow anchor was pretty much stripped down to tears in front of everybody. Like this never happened with any of the men. There were never any, what are you doing?

Why didn't you do this? Why did you make this decision? And the anchor ended up being right all along and no apology was given at all and this even happens because when did bell when did bells buy news talk you don't think in the exact 2013 okay so before that it was astral astral before that it was standard standard see this so it was standard forever i guess a long time and then yes then so you worked for all three of those owners. All three. Right, 14 years. Actually, I'm going to save this.

I was going to dive into some Bell initiatives that we all know, but I'm going to save this for just a little bit. I'm going to read another tweet. You would think that in a city as great and multicultural as Toronto, that there wouldn't be issues for young, hardworking people like me. Okay, I think you spoke to that. That stands alone. You do your job, you do well.

That's what it is. What are these awards again? I won two RTNDA awards, one for my 10-year anniversary piece on 9-11 and one for, you probably remember, a few years ago with the Tamil protests. Yes. Taking over the Gardner, taking over university. I won for my live coverage of that as well.

Cool. Once I was photographed holding a Gemini award, like I didn't win it, but a guy, cameraman for CBC won it, who I was helping with something. And I held it and I posted it on my blog. And I jokingly wrote that I won a Gemini for best blog on the movable type platform or something like that. I can't tell you how many people congratulated me on the award.

I can't tell you. And then I started feeling bad. I don't want to embarrass these people. So every once in a while, I'll just say to people randomly, I'll just say, you know, I won a Gemini award. It's just I had no idea that people would think that existed. But people believe you when you say things like that. Yeah.

And I believe that you won those two awards. I do. I have them. Here's another tweet. I actually had people that I respected and cared for tell me that I wasn't too black, so I would be great on TV. Yes. What the hell does that mean? More than one. More than one. I don't know if it's the complexion of my skin. I don't know if it's the way I look. As I said, I am mixed with white and native, But they actually said this to me.

Like, you should really go into TV. You know, you're not too black. So you should get a job in the city. Because I know it's radio or it's just a voice. You don't know what the color of the skin is. But on television, I think we have much more diversity. Absolutely. I see a lot of mixing.

And I watch CBC Toronto News at the six, well, they do five o'clock and they do it again at six. But Dwight Drummond is the... He's so awesome. And Anne-Marie Medawake, I hope I said that right. Medawake? She's got like Sri Lankan blood.

She's a mix of a bunch of things, Scottish Sri Lankan and stuff. But there's a lot more diversity on television. And this is, I actually have read this. So this is me, I've read this,

that there's racism within the black community and that the lighter your skin, the better treatment you get rather dark skinned black person. Absolutely. They're suggesting essentially that even within the black community, there is racism. Don't get it twisted. Racism against ourselves. I don't know if you'd call it racism

or self-hatred within the black community where they think that the fairer skin is the prettier the longer hair all my hair is mine i remember when i came up from nova scotia i was teased relentlessly because the black people who were at my school a lot of them were from the islands and the caribbean and and they really did not relate to me first of all this Canadian you know Nova Scotian girl coming up who can't speak patois and can't chill can't hang even the mayor could do that you can do it better than me but um yeah you know even I got teased and and bullied and I had girls pull my hair and say oh it is real like stuff like that happened to me all the time growing up it

wasn't until high school when I started developing that I started becoming the popular one. That took a while, though. I was teased relentlessly. I understand. So I've always lived in Toronto. So I know that I read and see things. There seems to be more racism in the USA than Canada. This is what I see.

I hope I'm right. I think Canadians are just more polite. Is that right? Yeah. They're too polite to say what they actually feel. But I think racism is just as strong here as it is in the U.S. I was in a marked vehicle doing a story for my for my station when a Toronto City worker called me the N-word. Really? Yes. That's an ignorant SOB. Oh, he sure was. And he still has his job. You know, middle aged white guy still has his job. After calling me an N-word, it was witnessed by another person at the station who was on the phone because I was filing reports. investigator came and interviewed me interviewed the other lady who was listening in on the conversation and and decided you know what yeah this actually did happen and yeah his manner could have been threatening his manner could have been threatening the guy was spitting in my face yelling at me and calling me the n-word so yeah you think yeah wow uh you know that's that yeah that was a

white guy right yes it was i don't think i have to say that but yeah you know i i don't know if this podcast will get me in trouble or whatever, but there seems to be a correlation. I think there's a correlation between like education and this bigotry. Like, and I'm not saying it's a direct correlation across the board, but it just seems like some people who are in, and this is no disrespect to blue collar people, a lot of, you know, civilized, respectful blue collar people,

but some people who maybe just have high school or dropped out of high school seem to be more likely to drop an N word, for example. And yeah, it's ignorance. It's ignorance, but ignorance can also be taught. And so you think about a lot of the Canadian communities, as I said, a lot of people don't even realize there's black people in Nova Scotia or the history of black people in this country at all. So to them, we're outsiders. Oh, we're not Canadian. Yeah, you've only been here for the past two generations. There was a heritage minute on this Underground Railroad, okay? Absolutely, absolutely.

But there's a lot of people who grew up in more remote areas of this country where, you know, they don't see many black people and they were taught the N-word and that's what they call them and they grow up with that. And you know what? Nobody says that word in a point of hatred, and a point of anger without having it inside them. Like it's something that they know is going to hurt and is going to sting. They know it's disrespectful and ignorant.

And so for someone to spit that out in anger, you know that that's something that they actually feel inside. Like I got a big issue with anyone who turns something, something you're born with, like whether it's your height or it's something you basically you're born with and turn it into a negative. Absolutely. Like, like a sexual preference. Yeah. Or color of your skin.

So all the things you basically, your height, for example. Yeah. Like would you go around teasing short people or calling them the M word? Like they've chosen to be short and this is some negative. Absolutely. It's ridiculous.

I hate it. Okay, so you're too black, so you'd be great on... You're not too black. Of course, you're not too black. More than one person has said this to you. Yes. But anybody of like a decent status or hiring position? Not in a hiring position,

no. Okay. But still, it's okay yeah but still that that that there's that in the industry that sentiment exists as i said with the n-word if it's not inside you it doesn't come out so obviously these people and you know what maybe they were looking out for my best interest they're both people that i really like but you know they they said it because they believe that that is my benefit that that is what that's my way in to television. The fact that I'm not too black, the fact that, you know. Would you want to be in television? I never did.

Honestly, like I never wanted to be in television. I fell in love with radio at a young age and I love radio. And that's really where I want to get back into radio because I love it. I love what I do. But you know what? I'm open to television. I mean, I'm open to anything. When you moved to Toronto when you were 12, what was your station? My station when I was 12? Oh, goodness. I don't know if it was 98.5. I think it might have been

98.5 or 92.5 that was always on my radio. And the one that played the pop and a little bit of hip hop, the mainstream hip hop. Mine was, I liked 680 CFTR. This is before the news days. I was too young to be listening to talk radio. I was like, I don't want to hear that. You want to hear your jams. No, these were jams for sure. Tom Rivers.

Oh, lovely. Yeah. Anyways, I'm a little older than you, so that takes us way back. But anyway, we'll move on from there. I'm glad you said it. I'm going to go over there. This is another tweet from Amber Giroux, who I think should be Giroux. I think we can bring this back to the French.

Yes. I actually had people. Oh, sorry. We read that one. Freedom is an amazing thing. I have never felt so free to express how I really feel. And then another tweet from you. I love this city and that is why I never, never acted like those in certain communities were better than others, despite my orders.

So what were you ordered to do that you disagree? What were these orders? Here's the problem that I found at the station I was working on. We only went to the Black community when something went wrong. We only talked about the Black community when there was a shooting, a murder, a stabbing, you know, issues in the school, violence in the school. That's the only time we ever went to the Black community or talked about the black community is when there were problems. And it was always about the black community being at fault. It was always, you know, the parents

aren't home for these kids and these single mothers having four and five babies to be on welfare. It was always that kind of undertone whenever the issues came up in the black community. None of the great stuff was really highlighted. I don't even remember ever covering a story that was like, yay, look at what these young people in the black community are doing. It just never happened. So do you think that reinforces stereotypes? If the average to talk radio listener, like a middle-aged white guy, let's say in Etobicoke or something, tunes in his 640 or 1010,

and that's all he hears, it just sort of like feeds some kind of inherent ignorance. It absolutely feeds the stereotype because you don't hear about any positives. You don't hear about anything good happening in the Black community. You don't profile any of the Black leaders. And so obviously, yeah, it's going to feed into those stereotypes when you're hearing, well, another shooting at Jane and Finch or another, you know, triple homicide in Galloway. Well, these are predominantly non-white communities and the majority of the people there are black.

So what are you saying? There's nothing good happening in any of these communities? Yeah, no, I think you might be right. I just was hearing about there were two shootings at Islington and Dixon. And, well, that area became pretty famous, I guess, during the Rob Ford years. Yeah. Anyway. Yes.

That's a different story. But there was interesting times. Yeah. Hey, do you think Ford Nation tapped into this inherent sort of racism? Do you think they tapped into it for, for, for political gains? Anything there?

Well, I always felt like, I felt like maybe they, they, they kind of, they had a base that had, although as I understand, four nation is very popular in the black community.

It is. So Rob Ford was very popular in the black community because he wasn't this pretentious guy. Like an elitist. Yeah. Even though he was born rich. He was pretty wealthy. He wasn't this elitist guy who decided, you know,

I'm going to tell you what the black community needs. I'm going to tell you how we're going to fix the problems here. That's, that's not what Rob Ford was about. And I think that black people related to that. Was he in trouble? Yes. Did he get, you you know himself involved in things i think that also might have appealed a little bit because he wasn't perfect and he didn't try

to act like he was perfect and so maybe there was that sense of you know what this guy's flawed but he doesn't talk down to the black community okay so there's that would explain some of the appeal i mean i i did scooters on this all the time like asking them what was the appeal and why and and this is what i was hearing from the people i was speaking to every morning about because it was pretty much every morning for a while there we were covering rob ford and and they all pretty much said the same thing whenever i stopped a black person it was like you know what give the guy a break he's he's not perfect neither are any of us and you know what he doesn't talk down to us he doesn't make us feel like we're inferior and he doesn't act break he's he's not perfect neither are any of us and you know what he doesn't talk down to us he doesn't make us feel like we're inferior and he doesn't act like he's the be-all and end-all of

the solving the issues in the black community you know uh my hair has been darkening since he left office like i i was very i started going very white during his four years and by the end of it i was white my hair is a lot darker now. The stress is gone. I don't have to see those streeters anymore. My blood pressure is rising. This is another tweet from Amber. Can't even remember the last news person at my old job other than me who wasn't Caucasian.

It's pretty sad considering the years I put in. So that's an interesting point. So you were there 14 years. Yes. Like, so who was the last non-Caucasian? Well, that would be Suzette Francis. She was the news editor. She was a black woman.

Okay. She's the last one I can remember. I mean, she was not on air though. She wasn't a regular on-air news person. She was the editor. So she was behind the scenes. But I really can't remember who the last non-white anchor She wasn't a regular on-air news person. She was the editor, so she was behind the scenes. But I really can't remember who the last non-white anchor or news reporter was.

To me, I don't understand because radio you can't see. Like it's not a visual medium. It's not about that. It's about representing the community. It's about being able to have someone on the station at least who is not white to speak about issues that don't affect white people. I mean, it's one of those things where, you know, as I said, you got to have the perspectives of all people. And I'm not saying, hey, you know, it's only about Black people not being in the newsroom. There were no people of color at all. So on the air, news people, where are they? None.

None. None. It was only me for years. Now I'm going to read another tweet from you that takes us to a slightly different topic that I want to discuss. Okay, so here, this introduces it nicely. Here, this introduces it nicely. Don't even get me started on these so-called mental health initiatives that don't even actually help those working for these companies. Sad.

Okay, you're talking about Bell's Let's Talk campaign. Let's Talk? Is that what we're talking about? Yeah, absolutely. Which, you know, yeah, to be honest, they make a lot of noise that day. Like, there's a lot. I guess all the Bells. The campaign is great.

It's an amazing campaign. It's raising awareness. I never slammed the campaign. I slammed the fact that none of these initiatives were ever extended to me as a bell employee. I'm sorry. They weren't the most I received as an email saying, make sure to mention this in your newscast. That's the most I received. And my problem is this is a high stress job. I mean, there were, there were some of us working 14 and 15 days in a row because, you know, people would be taken off or there'd be major stories happening. There were some of us who worked 15, 16, 17 hours a day. And, and yet there was no, you know, Hey guys, listen, this is what we're doing. We want you to know that if any of you need help, if any of you need some guidance, this is open to you.

No, none of that ever seemed to be extended to the employees. In fact, as I explained earlier, there were times when employees were berated in front of rooms full of people. That's not, you know, looking out for someone's mental health in my mind. Now. Well, OK, looking up for someone's mental health in my mind. Now, well, okay. Yeah. The, uh, it's interesting. It's almost as if they, Bell does not eat their own dog food to borrow and express on the software companies that don't use their own software. Like they don't eat their own dog food. Um, and this is not to say, of course,

it goes without saying there are so many benefits to this campaign in terms of removing the stigma with, uh, depression and mental illness. I grew up with an awful schizophrenia. I think this campaign is amazing. My problem was me as an employee not being given the same opportunities or even just a note sent out saying this is what we have for our employees. This is open for you. This can be confidential. Come and speak to us if there are issues, any of that. Like half of us were afraid to go to HR because, frankly, HR works for the company. They don't work for the benefit of the employees. So let's get it straight.

That's true. That's one of my tips when I give someone new to a full-time working environment. It's like, just remember, HR represents the interest of the owners. That's who they represent. Now, so having said that there's many great benefits to the campaign, we should also point out that it's absolutely a huge marketing campaign for Bell. I mean, Bell sticks their name in it. This hashtag with the donations has to have Bell in it. Like this is 100 percent, like, of course, is great benefits, which is why, you know,

you don't want to. Absolutely. You don't want to slam it. Right, you don't want to slam it because of the many benefits. But you must acknowledge, of course, that this is Bell doing this massive marketing campaign. And I am going to read a comment. This is not from you. This is from someone else who wrote a note on torontomike.com. Not commenting specifically on Amber's case,

but as a Bell employee, I can tell you the whole let's talk thing is regarded as a big joke within Bell. This company is all about style over substance as it honestly, as it honestly, there's a little typo here, but it creates an awful work environment

for its employees. We have the exception of a lucky few who are for the most part, overly compensated in peer examples of the Peter principle. Theated in pure examples of the Peter principle. The company is devoid of any creativity and has no empathy for its employees, which results in a passionless environment. You either say, fuck it, and just go through the motions or move on. Most of those who stay are miserable, and there is really no hope

of any change. You either shut up and do it or don't. But yeah, let's talk. So that was one note that I thought was interesting inside perspective. Absolutely. Nothing that I'm saying has only been said by me. It's been said by many other people at the company. Of course, a lot of those people still work there. They don't want to speak up. They don't want to make waves. Me, I'm at the point where I don't care. I'm sorry. I'm going to speak my mind. I'm not relying on anybody else. As I said, I have my own business. Do I love radio? Do I want to get back into it? Sure. But I'm not going to compromise myself and my self-respect just because I'm worried that, oh, they're not going to hire me because here's a black woman speaking out about the problems or here's a woman speaking out about

the problems or someone who knows that as a Bell employee, there's certain things that aren't extended to you. Like let's talk. So, you know, you know, it is what it is.

It's very sad that I actually am worried about you now, because what I'm worried about is we already, like we have basically got like chorus, Bell and Rogers owning most of the station. Okay. And obviously Bell read those tweets and, you know, and Bell knows what you're doing. Not that that bridge wasn't burned already. What are they going to do to me, really, though?

But if Rogers, let's say Rogers and Chorus, and I'm just speculating here, but let's say they now have labeled you as troublemaker, okay? I was a troublemaker the moment I opened my mouth about anything. I know, but now you've gone public. The tweets are public. So it's essentially like now it's in the public realm.

And I just worry about what that means for your future opportunities in radio. And that's pretty sad. It's very sad. It's very, very, very sad. I mean,

none of what I'm saying is not something that I can prove. It's very sad. It's very, very, very sad. I mean, none of what I'm saying is not something that I can prove, is not something that I've not experienced myself. And so, you know, it's pretty sad that my experiences and my thoughts about how I was treated, about the things that were going on would be, I guess, put against me or used against me. But you know what? As I said, I wanted to speak out for a reason. I mean, I have nothing to lose. I have nothing to really gain. I just wanted to make sure that people understood,

listen, lack of diversity, men treated with way more respect than women. And the fact that, you know what? These mental health initiatives, although great on the surface, don't actually help the people working for these companies. Here's another person who worked at Newstalk, and I won't use their name to protect their identity. As an ex-employee of Newstalk 1010, there is a whole lot under that hood that has been building for a long time.

I admire Amber for speaking up and speaking out. Ask around and you'd find more than a few stories of sexism. So, obviously, I'm a very white, very male, very heterosexual guy talking to you. And, you know, you've got me listening and thinking differently than I had. I don't think I ever questioned this. The sexism thing I had definitely, definitely. Because you can hear that. You can hear the sexism.

You can hear male voice after male voice after male voice. But with radio, a lot of the time people don't know who or what nationality or what color the people speaking to them are. As I said, many people didn't even know I was black and they've been listening for years. And you probably talk in the reporter voice. Reporter voice. Yes.

The reporter voice, which I brought this up with Siobhan. I noticed reporters have a certain pattern and way of speaking. Yeah. You want to be clear and direct. And over enunciate. Yes. Because when I say words like button, I say button. Yes.

Yes. But on the air, just like I always said Toronto. Not Toronto. Right. So you have to over enunciate. So my observation, you've got me looking and listening.

I'm just glad we're talking about this because I don't think anyone else had the, you know, like I said, to me it's dangerous for your radio career to do this usually I get people on this podcast who will kind of uh go at the industry but they're like and more advanced in their career where they basically have reached a point where they know they're not working again you know yeah so then they're out of part of my expression but they're out of fucks to give. And then suddenly it comes out. You're very young to be at that point.

So it just saddens me on that regard. But I'm very pleased you're doing this because I think we need to talk about this. Absolutely. Absolutely. And this is what else it made me think. So then all this sparks all these thoughts in my head and I look at my own podcast. Okay. I'm going to read some names that have been my own podcast. Okay. I'm going to read

some names that have been here over the last year. I'm going to run down a quick list. Okay. Strombo, Jeff Merrick, Todd Shapiro, Aaron Davis, Mike Wilner, Jason Barr, Jay Mad Dog Michaels, Alan Cross, Humble and Fred, Matt, uh, Mike Stafford, May Potts, Greg Brady, Scott Turner, Raina, David Marsden, Andrew Walker, Barb DiGiulio, Colleen Rusholm, Jim Richards, Bingo Bob, and Siobhan Morris. So those are people who have been here over the last year. All right. So then I said, okay, they're all white. Like every single one of them. I know them all. Yes. They're very white. They are white strombo is my only ethnic person on that list yes right he's got the beautiful greek but blood in him okay so then so i have to be very honest with you i'm not racist

like i don't have i don't see race or anything i it's not like i only invite white people i've invited several people who weren't white but the only person who's actually been on my podcast prior to you who was not a white person is my wife. Because my wife's not a white person and she came on an episode. So other than my wife, oh, there's proof I'm not racist. I'm married outside the white

race. Are you pulling the I know a black guy, I have a black friend? I'm pulling this. I have a son who's half asian how's that that's and he's gorgeous oh thank you very much the other very white uh gorgeous son he's been probably listening to this i realized that we weren't very quiet but that's it he's got to wake up eventually um okay so uh that's that to me i wondered when i started thinking why like because i did i've been trying to get maestro Fresh West on this thing for a long time.

Oh, that would be awesome. Because I loved him growing up. And he jumped on stage when I saw Public Enemy a couple of years ago. Cool. Yeah, very cool. And Mishy Mee jumped on stage too, by the way. It was amazing. And I'm like, I wanted Maestro for a long time.

I've had discussions with people like, oh, yeah. Actually, this segues quickly to the fact the one station i believe which does have a very diverse staff and seems to be more reflective of our city which is cbc radio one oh yeah like big time they got it they actually you know their morning show guy is not does not identify as white yes that's amazing in toronto right absolutely i know well where do you see it anywhere else no you're right but and he's he's coming on so my point is i've talked to him and he's coming on that's matt galloway yes and uh jerry i'm yeah yeah i'm doing that i'm exactly

doing it's like when doug ford said his lawyer and his doctor were jewish like i'm not telling you yeah i have invited Michael Williams. I talked to. So anyways, Master T, I've been trying to get on this damn thing. Oh, very cool. Much music. But if you look at it,

if you look at the list of people, they're all people active in the industry in some way or another. So really, who would you invite other than the really well-known black people? Master T, Michael. Like, where are the other, where are the other ethnicities in radio i also missed some names of course like

jeremy taggart and jonathan torrens and mark hebbshire and then there's uh ash from uss but they're all white people too so uh bottom line is i started thinking like what's going on but it's yeah it's a reflection of what's happening in radio of the media in toronto so essentially my podcast being all white is a direct reflection of the fact so few people of color or non-white people, if you will, in Toronto media. Like, yeah, especially radio. Especially radio. Especially radio. So you're absolutely right.

If we do the analytics, you're absolutely right. All those lineups are daytime, especially get rid of the weekends. They're all white. Yeah. And there's an odd woman here and there like Barb. But yeah, she now has her own show, which is great. I think that's amazing. So does she co-host or is she in her own show?

I think she actually has her own show now on the station, which is amazing. But she's like a unicorn, right? Like that's the thing. Now you're the unicorn. You are the one. You've invested. But she's the first one in a very long time in terms of Monday to Friday. She's the first female host who has had her own position in years.

So while we close out here, please, how do we fix this? Can you give me some hope? Can we leave on some positive note, hope for the future? Like, how do we fix this? It starts at the top. It starts at the top and broadening, you know, the scope of what you're trying to put on the air. There are talented people out there who are not white. There are strong leaders in our communities who are not white. And I'm not saying go out and hire four black people tomorrow. Just other perspectives, you know, and hire some ethnicities to be able to weigh in on some of the issues you're actually dealing with? Would I like to see more black people on radio?

Absolutely. But I'd also like to see more Asian people, more native people, more Hispanic people. Where are they? Like, and they're graduating every year. They're graduating every year from the media school. So don't tell me they're not there and not willing to work. It's just there's this thing about men and white men in particular, that is like the be all and end all of what you produce on radio. And that has to change. And that has

to change from the top down. These are, I'm not saying these people are not talented. They don't deserve to be where they are. It's that it has to change from the top down and they really need to broaden the horizons. Thank you very much for doing this. Thank you for having me. This honesty is so refreshing. Like it's like no filter. This is great. I feel like, you know, the throwback to radio. And it doesn't bother you that, you know, hiring people will probably listen to this. It doesn't bother me at all. There's nothing that I said that isn't true and nothing that I said that I didn't personally experience myself. And you're sober right now. Absolutely. Stone sober. Jeez. Goodness gracious. Why can't a black woman have a peace of mind? No, I find it very refreshing and I'm

very grateful that you came on and talked to me about this. And I hope my voice stays like this. I've never sounded so good. Very sexy. Keeping it. Love it. Maybe there's like a vocal cord scraping procedure I could get done. Yeah, you know. My aunt used to drink lemon. She liked the sound of the laryngitis voice so she used to try to imitate it. It's a pro tip. I'm going to do that. There you go. It's amazing. And that

brings us to the end of our 115th show. You can follow me on Twitter at Toronto Mike and Amber is at a Giro, a G E R O. Follow her. See you all next week. is kind of rosy and gray. Yeah, the wind is cold, but the scruff of snow

warms me today. And your smile is fine, and it's just like mine, and it won't go away. Because everything is rosy and gray. Well, you've been under my skin for more than eight years.