Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - Art Bergmann: Toronto Mike'd #1358

Episode Date: November 3, 2023

In this 1358th episode of Toronto Mike'd, Mike chat with Art Bergmann about the loss of his beloved wife, the art inspired by the loss, and all the Arty Art he can muster. ShadowWalk is available now. Toronto Mike'd is proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, Palma Pasta, Ridley Funeral Home, Electronic Products Recycling Association, Raymond James Canada and Moneris. If you would like to support the show, we do have partner opportunities available. Please email Toronto Mike at [e-mail]

Welcome to episode 1358 of Toronto Mic'd. Proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, a fiercely independent craft brewery who believes in supporting communities, good times, and brewing amazing beer. Order online for free local home delivery in the GTA. Palma Pasta. Enjoy the taste of fresh, homemade Italian pasta and entrees Thank you. Advantage Investor Podcast from Raymond James Canada. Valuable perspective for Canadian investors who want to remain knowledgeable,

informed, and focused on long-term success. Season 5 of Yes, We Are Open, an award-winning podcast hosted by FOTM Al Grego for Moneris, and Ridley Funeral Home, pillars of the community since 1921. Today, making his in-person Toronto Mike debut, is Order of Canada recipient, Art Bergman. Welcome, Art. Hello, Mike.

I thought you would pre-record that kind of stuff. I don't, that would be boring to me. Like, I want to do it live each time. Oh, fantastic. Part of the fun. And you never know, what if you interjected something there? It would be like, hey, live on the floor, here's our Bergman. Glad to be

selling alcohol and pasta? Okay. Would you, okay, if a prominent, let's say a travel agency said, we want to license Hawaii, okay, maybe they'll get rid of the F-bombs. Would you say okay?

Yep. Is it all for sale now? It's all for sale now. Art's for sale now. I need to make a few bucks. Me too, buddy. That's why you got the beer ad. I shall never retire from music, but not paying rent to a slumlord would be nice.

Well, I got questions about that, but firstly, I want to know, would you ever create art thinking that this might be more sellable? Would you change your art to make it more financially appealing? I write hits. I was at

the horseshoe last night to watch you perform. You were amazing, man. Thank you. And I guess I, in my mind, I'm like, oh, he's, it's kind of a miracle to me. And I hope this is taken with the respect I intended, because I got nothing but respect for you. But I'm almost a little surprised our Bergman's still with us. So I almost feel like, oh, like a living legend, he walks amongst us.

Like, you know, drink him in while he's still here. Yes, please. Surprised? I'm surprised. I'm effing 70 years old. You can swear on this show. Let's hear it.

You want to swear? Oh, sure. Yeah, because you said effing. I'm fucking 70. I love it. How many times have you come close to, you know, kicking the bucket? I feel like you're lucky to be at 70 years old. You've had times you could have died.

Well, so has everyone. So, you know, we've had our... Some are closer than others. We've had our brushes with the law and various substances over the years, but here I am. But you got it all under control now. I do want to ask, okay, so I saw you yesterday and you are walking with a cane. Please just let us know how you're doing physically. You sounded strong. I'm saying your voice was great. The guitar playing was great, but you got to sit down to play now. Yeah, I can't stand. I've got osteoarthritis in my spine, my body. So I have scoliosis, which is curvature of the spine. And I'm not sure how to deal with that

other than walk with a cane right now. Might end up in a chair. Can they do anything for that? Like, I don't know, get you new joints or something? Well, I had a friend who had it. The whole, his half his spine rebuilt and it was not

successful. So these things are not always successful to rebuild. He rebuilt his spine with you know, titanium levers and rivets and such. And poor guy didn't help with it. Tough to get on an airplane too.

Like, you know, you go through that metal detector and it's binging and it's banging. And you're like, oh, I don't have a gun on me. I'm just a robocop. I did get a few in my upper neck because they were causing paralysis, so that's fixed. And I mean, again, I'll take Albert. Titanium cages, they call them. Okay. Does it set off the alarms at the airport?

No, it doesn't. Okay. You got the good one. Okay. You paid for that stuff. That's probably an advantage to having the Order of Canada pin. Like, you go to the front of the line when you need surgery and you get the good stuff. No, I go to the front of the line

at the airport because I can't walk. Okay, there's always a way. Now, where is your Order of Canada pin? Tom Wilson was here the other day. He was wearing it prominently. Yeah, I wore it to my first outing after returning from Ottawa. And that's it.

You don't be ostentatious about this thing. Yeah, you put it away. It's like, you know, we get it, Art. It's safe, it's beautiful on top of my bureau. As long as you know where it is. And that bureau, that's in Vancouver now. You've moved back to Vancouver. Yes.

What's it like? I know at the concert yesterday, and I'm going to touch on this more later and play some of the new songs, and I got a lot to say to you. I hope you cleared your calendar. But you sort of served a term in Alberta. What was that like in Alberta for like a decade maybe?

Oh, in the belly of the beast, I call it, surrounded by Christo fascists and West of Airdrie there. That town even has not one, two Mormon churches, which is even beyond the 50 Christian churches. Right. So I chose to use it as inspiration for writing and to witness before the beast,

the beast of Christianity. And now you're back in Van City. Yes, I moved to Vancouver after my wife died. I packed up my house and sadly had to leave. It was a beautiful 10 acres house farm in the middle of 160 acres of wheat fields and had to go, but I couldn't live there alone. And so I live Second Avenue,

just down the hill from Fabulous Commercial Drive, which is even more commercial now than it ever was. It's become trendy now. I said this when you made your second appearance on Toronto Mike, which I'm going to touch on in a minute, but my sincere condolences that you lost the love of your life

and I'm so sorry. Oh, thank you. Great art did come. I'm at a silver lining. I hope that doesn't sound disrespectful either because obviously there's no good in this except that the art that came out of your loss is incredible. This new album, it came sort of from the ashes there.

Thanks. That's all I know how to do is write songs, songs usually about what's happening in my life or what I observe, and this was it. And I'm glad I documented all the way. Every time I had a new song, I went into Russell Broome's studio and we demoed it. And then we got funding, beautiful funding,

from BC Creative, BC Government Grant, it and then i got we got funding beautiful funding from bc creative bc government grant and got to make the best album of my life even got string sections on there but yeah but it shows the transition the walk through grief and out of it and into beautiful um all love i live in now she's with me and she's in songs and i move through it so happy day i'm gonna play the song i think this is what you know started it all for you on this journey you know life is just a bunch of journeys and you're just documenting it the only way you know how which is in your songwriting. And let's start with by listening to Death of a Siren. She walks these fields A hungry ghost

Drinking sunlight Overdose Kisses of the sea She cuts through the scars. Glimpse of heaven, cold night stars. People here can't see where they're going weird. They don't understand they condemn and fear

she smiles they demand her name I'm the witch you burned in flames there is no crack that's in the light there is no crack that's in the light.

There is no way to bridge this dark divide. Grief is the prize. You stay alive. Death of a Siren How soon after the tragic and sudden loss of your beloved Cherry did you write Death of a Siren? About three weeks later. It's hauntingly beautiful. And I think anyone who's experienced

a great loss as you did will want to immerse themselves in this art and ride that wave. I wanted to just build out I wrote it in a day and went into Russell Brooms and did this.

So this is one song that spilled out of you, but did you know there was a whole album that was going to come? No idea. Did you think you'd make it? I know we've talked in the past, Jason Schneider's with us. We talked about, you know, the longest suicide. Did you think you'd make it? I know we've talked in the past. Jason Schneider's with us. We talked about the longest suicide. Did you think you'd make it to 2023? Oh, I live in the now, so I don't think about these things.

One day at a time? Right now, yeah. Enjoying it. For those who want to hear the initial Art Bergman episode of Toronto Mic'd, I urge you to check out episode 856. And here's the description

I wrote at the time. Mike chats with Canadian punk pioneer Art Bergman about the young Canadians going solo, getting paid and getting the order at Canada.

So that's like we cover like the A to Z. And actually what I remember, Art, is I remember we did it on Zoom. You were in Alberta. And I remember your wife, Sherry, helping you with the Zoom. Like it was like she was there

to assist you with the technology. Of course, yes. She caught on to computers much sooner than I. I don't, I'm not, I'm learning now on my own. I'm, I can even e-transfer money.

How's that? How do you like that? Well, let me give you my email address. Yes. You know what? I'm going to,

I'm going to give you, and I don't know how your, your accommodations are while you're in town. How long are you in Toronto for? Until next Tuesday.

I'm staying with a dear friend, Donna Kerbel, who was in the opening band last night. Luxury Bob. She's a genius and she's putting me up and being very kind and feeding me.

Well here, let's help her feed you. Let's bring her, when you go there later today, let's give her a large lasagna from Palma Pasta. It's frozen in my freezer. And then that'll be multiple meals. It's delicious Italian food. You'll be a good guest.

Is that a good idea, Jason? I think that would make a lot of people happy. Hey, is this on camera? Yeah, there's a camera here. Oh, fantastic. Wow. Oh, look at this. The pitchman.

Yeah, okay. Beautiful. So you got yourself, again, you know, that box won't be empty when you leave. Fantastic. Wow. Oh, look at this. The pitchman. Yeah, okay. Beautiful. So you got yourself, again, you know, that box won't be empty when you leave. It's in the freezer right now. So the second appearance by Art Bergman was episode 1161. And what I wrote at the time was Mike chats with Canada's godfather of punk. See, the first time I called you Canada's punk pioneer, and now I'm calling you... Why not goddess?

Why not godmother? Well, you know, if that's how you identify, I can edit the script. We talked about The Longest Suicide. So, Jason, you helped Art with The Longest Suicide. No, I helped him. He wrote it. Yes.

No, that's correct. It's Jason's book about me. Art helped me. He wrote it. Yes. No, that's correct. It's Jason's book about me. Art helped me. I got my own book. Okay, you have a book coming. What's your book? Much more filthier. What is it?

Is it poetry? What is it, Art? I can see you have poetry. Yeah, I want to do a book of my songs, the lyrics, where the songs came from. You're kind of like the punk Leonard Cohen. Thank you. And he had the Order of Canada, too.

You guys all get together? I just wondered, is there like a little, like meetings periodically of you Order of Canada recipients? There ain't no crack. And that's in the mic. Yeah, that's a Cohen line, right. No, I turned it on its head. Yeah, you kind of...

There is a crack, he says. I said, there ain't, is not, at that point in my life. Did you ever meet Leonard Cohen? No, my wife did. Oh. He tried to pick her up. Not surprised.

He's a Casanova. You got to keep your eye on that guy. He's a filthy... I'm not surprised. He's a Casanova. You got to keep your eye on that guy. Casanova. I'm going to ask you a question about another Order of Canada recipient, because I'm always curious on your viewpoints before we get back to the album here.

In one song, which I think like if Much Music were a thing today, this would be the song that like Much puts on high rotation when you give them the video, but I'll get to that in a minute. But do you think Buffy St. Marie should give back her order of canada considering she was she's not indigenous why do you say that which part the uh well like in if oh i'm not sure if i'm not sure if art was following i yes i know oh you do okay so so the fifth estate i don't know if you saw it or not but no i'm not gonna watch it so why won't you watch Estate, I don't know if you saw it or not. Nope, I'm not going to watch it. So why won't you watch it?

You just don't care? I don't need to know. She's adopted by a Paya Pot tribe and she's fine. What does she fucking look like? What does she sound like? Jesus Christ. What's the fucking argument? She's adopted.

No, yes, yes, but in her 20s, right? So she lives two decades as a white American, and does that make you Indigenous? Like, just a legit conversation. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Yeah, it is.

Yeah, I think it's still a pretty raw subject for a lot of people. She's a fine fucking person. But, yeah, but I mean, well, I think. Does she look Italian? Well, now that I know that she's Italian, she does look Italian to me. What part of Italy? The part where they mixed with the blacks? So she's black.

Okay, that'll do. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She's black. Since we're spicing things up here, your first appearance... No, she's black. You're telling me she's black now because she's from southern Italy

because she looks like that. And there's black in southern Italy because they're mixed with Africans. So that's okay now because she's black. So let's move on. We can move on, but I don't even think that's okay. I don't think being black is not indigenous, right? But again, I don't want to...

It depends on what part of blackness you come from, Jesus Christ. Do you see where we can go with this? I will go down every rabbit hole if you want. Well, no, I think the point... think the point It's a question of identity And I think Art Spelled out Well your song The Legend of Bobby Bird

Is You wrote that song Before a lot of this stuff Was happening Before Before Gord Downie And I come in peace Art before a lot of this stuff was happening, like before... Trying to change the subject. Before Gord Downie, you know... And I come in peace, Art.

I know you are. I'm just looking for the conversation. I'm legitimately interested in your perspective in whether she should give back some accolade she received before this revelation. But I also respect your... Is it a revelation? Well, yeah, because we were led to believe she was adopted out of,

uh, from, uh, uh, in Saskatchewan on a reserve when she was like two years old. Right. So now we find out her birth parents are actually white Americans. It,

it is a significant change in the story. Okay. Like whether it matters or not. I don't know enough to argue it with you. Okay. Well, we, yeah.

I don't want to know. Yeah. You know, uh, ignorance is bliss. It's, uh, I love her music. Absolutely. Okay, well, yeah. I don't want to know. Yeah, you know, ignorance is bliss. I love her music. Absolutely great, fantastic artist. We all love Buffy.

Now, just because we'll get all the greasy stuff out of the way here, but your first appearance, you kind of started things off. This is, you know, years ago, literally years ago, but you were talking about how you were disappointed and you were critical of some Israeli israeli policies do you remember this uh maybe you don't remember because you probably do a lot of press but i got a note i got no i don't do much you won't after this i got a note that art bergman was anti-semitic on toronto mic and i took that uh feedback yes okay from a proud jewish man and i took that feedback. Yes. Okay. From a proud Jewish man.

And I took that feedback very seriously. So I reviewed our conversation and after reviewing it, I deemed that there was nothing antisemitic in what you said, but you can, you can be critical of Israel and the, that country's policies without being antisemitic. Yes. Now I'm naturally curious

since you were kind of, now the entire world is a mess and now especially that part of the world and I'm wondering what your thoughts are on this current war. Current war. Well, my dear Jewish friend Donna sent me a text that said

Hamas invaded Israel. And I went, how can they invade Israel? Because they're in the largest prison in the world. But they are in the largest prison in the world, and there's old people there with keys to their homes in Tel Aviv. And I don't know how to sort out that whole mess except maybe have a religion-free zone. Sounds like heaven. Yeah.

Ironically enough, your next poem. Yeah, I would imagine no religion. Yeah. I'm on board with that. Yeah, I am too. Okay, Rambar, you with us? Atheist. Oh, yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. You sound unsure. Jason's not sure, but he's going. I'm very sure, but yeah. I'm all about the music, man. Yeah, listen, this is turning to music Jason I know

Mike what are you talking about Buffy you're talking about Israel and Hamas get to the fucking music I had no idea you were this well versed it matters it's not every day Art Bergman visits the basement fantastic this is the best interview I've ever done

today so last night on there at the Horseshoe Tavern shout out to Cam Gordon If I got you here, we're going to talk a lot. This is the best interview I've ever done. Today. So last night on there at the Horseshoe Tavern, shout out to Cam Gordon and Tyler Campbell, the VP of sales who joined me at this event. We had a fantastic time. We were drinking Great Lakes beer. And I was, yeah, well, they got the Canuck Pale Ale there.

I was drinking the Canuck Pale Ale at the Horseshoe. And a few things of note here. one is that your band was fucking amazing can you shout out that band i i feel like i've recognized these guys from previous shows and hostile witness oh that's me um joel anderson on the drums i think he did years and years with Kathleen Edwards. And the Sky Diggers. John Dinsmore runs a small studio. I think it's called Lincoln. Hello, Lincoln County. He just did a recording with someone from Guided by Voices

and on the guitar, a famous Toronto veteran, Steve Koch. Great band. You on guitar, famous Toronto veteran Steve Koch. Great band. You on guitar, you were strong last night. Your voice was great. And just, I'm going to tell you, I was like 10 feet from you, soaking it in. You sounded amazing last night. You got the strength in you to do more live shows? After that one, yeah.

I don't know what happened. I rehearsed and a struggle all week and then I just got up there and I was just lifted with some kind of magic well I mean I felt like I could stand yes

I thought I could stand it felt so light amazing when that happens so now are you when that happens. So now are you thinking that you can probably do a little more live performance? Yeah, going back to Vancouver to do a theater show out in the valley. And then we'll see. Yeah, maybe a tour?

Awesome band in Vancouver. I've got a little choir happening. Touring. I don't know. Who would put it together? Who would sponsor it or pay for it? Right.

I saw Ron Hawkins at the show last night. He'll be here next week. I'll put a little in the background. This is your song, you know. and he'll be here next week. Here, I'll put a little in the background, a little bit of... This is your song, you know. A little bit of this, Lois Lelow. Check your guns out the door. There's a man that you should see.

A generation that's fantastic. He knows about life. Life in the city of art. I never get tired of their story of seeing you on the side of the road. Remember the story? It's like Greatest Hits. You remember this story? I remember the story. I was there. Who kicked you off the bus again? What were the bands that kicked you off the story? It's like Greatest Hits. You remember this story? I remember the story. I was there.

Who kicked you off the bus again? Give me these. What were the bands that kicked you off the bus? Sons of Freedom. Well, they didn't kick me off. They wouldn't let me on. Boot Sauce. Boot Sauce.

It was mainly Boot Sauce, wasn't it? Can I just say fuck Boot Sauce? Can I just say that? That's bullshit. And then, what, Lois the Lord driving, going to some other gig. They're not on the same tour as you, but they're like, hey, that's Art Bergman on the side of the road. Yeah.

I went back. I didn't get a ride, so I had to go back into, I think it was Saskatoon, and catch the next morning's bus. Oh, the other band was Pure. They had a small band. They didn't know anything about this situation. Okay, fuck boot sauce then. I've heard other artists have said fuck boot sauce.

Oh, they were scared to have me on board. They were all trying to be clean and sober. Well, you're kind of a bad idea if you're trying to... And they had big managers and stuff look after that they're mortals well I I don't know

I just hope they know they were fucking with a legend that's all I'm gonna say you don't you don't let you don't fuck with a legend

if she's gonna write a song about you yeah you'll write a song but anyway this song is called Life Imitates Art this is Lois the Low

they're here next week so I just want to say hi well Ron Hawkins is here with Lawrence Nichols on the is lowest to the low they're here next week so I just want to say hi well Ron Hawkins is here with Lawrence Nichols on the 7th of November which I think is next week and I'm looking forward to that

but I'm thinking this tour I don't know maybe it's a maybe this tour maybe it's not Canada maybe it's Ontario but it's lowest to the low with Art Bergman

like I feel like that's the combo I keep bugging Ron about it you want me to bug him next week he's here yeah you know when you're being recorded,

you know what you say is amplified. There's no money, though. That's the problem. Where do we find the money? Jason, where's the money? There's no money to pay to put up a... The money's in book sales. That's why Art's working on the book.

Writing the book is the move. Before we get back to the new album, Art, I know I'm all over the place, but the book is the move. Okay. I just want, so before we get back to the new album, I know I'm all over the place, but you were really strong yesterday. But one song that really kind of shines, excluding the new songs, and especially the single I said, if Much Music were a thing,

this would be the Much Music single. But speaking of Much Music, this is the song that slayed last night. Like a lot of your stuff was great, but this song just fucking kills life. Like the energy from this song. Oh, good to hear, because you don't practice that one. Like, it's Slade last night.

A little taste. Load up the trucks. Don't forget the makeup. We got six MIsI.S.E. For the morning and for the show We got our costumes ready Gotta go, go, go My band's a Vegas

My band's a Vegas Wow. Chris Wardman production, right? Yep. I've talked to him, yeah. He's great. He's great from Blue Peter, yeah. What I liked about last night is that

you didn't do the bullshit encore thing that bands do like you just sort of like that was the set you did this is like this i think this finished the set you're like okay the set's over so instead of making me and my like go leave and then like i don't know get a drink of water and come back like let me just start the encore right away like you're, no bullshit. That's an art move. You know, a recent art move because I can't walk very easily. So why not just get it over with? Yeah, it's like, okay, pretend I left

and now reimagine I've appeared. Pretend the cape is thrown over my shoulders. Great crowd. Great crowd yesterday. Okay, so Bound for Vegas. And I wondered, why is this hitting?

I mean, it's a great song, but maybe it's much music's fault. This seems to be part of this art renaissance. What was the first part of your question? Just the role of music videos

in the Art Bergman renaissance, if you will. Well, my co-writer, Patricia Kay, versed herself in putting video together and made videos for every song on the new album. Which is called Shadow Walk, by the way. I don't think that's been mentioned yet. Well, the new...

They're lyric videos, basically. And in lieu of any budget coming to make a good one, Death of a Siren has a video, a beautiful video. So Death of a Siren was sort of the first, like you said. It was not her, no, it was by my friend in Calgary, Ken. I can't remember his last name. Well, here, let's get back to Shadow Walk. Available now.

This beautiful new album. I think it's your best work. You know what? I smell Junos, man. Did you ever win any Junos art? I did. For what fresh hell is this? But that was for an awful category,

the alternative. Why is that an awful category? Alternative to what, right? Yes. What the fuck is that? It's a misnomer. Yes. This is the way things should be.

You are the alternative. Well, there was a period of time in the 90s when alternative was the mainstream, but we still called it alternative. In the meanwhile, I don't know, Nirvana had the number one album in America or something. I can't understand, Nirvana had the number one album in America or something. I can't understand why people just can't

call it rock and roll or something. Marketing, man. You know, marketing. It's the same reason we're going to get a travel agency to buy Hawaii and get you some cash for your rent there. Okay. So I got a great note from a gentleman named Romanco. Is this live?

Well, it came in, I put on Twitter, Art Bergman's visiting, and then I got, people note from a gentleman named Romanco. Is this live? Well, it came in. I put on Twitter, Art Bergman's visiting, and then I got people would write in on Twitter. So Romanco, he's got two versions of this question. He's got the short, straightforward version, and then he has the long-winded, potentially awkward version, which I love the idea of anything that's long-winded and potentially awkward,

but I'm going to read the short, straightforward version first. The song Raw Naked Monday, which i'm going to play in a moment because i fucking love it it was great last night the song raw naked monday from right jason from the new album which people can get right now shadow walk correct yeah i'm just doing a little mark the song raw naked monday has a different vibe than many of the tracks on the album. In another universe, it would be a mainstream hit single. The backing vocals on this song and a few others are gorgeous. How did Art find this singer?

Do you think I should play it first and then come back to this so we can hear the voice? Okay, let's play it right now. Yeah, it is great backing vocals. Let's hear it. She sings on the whole record. And by the way, this is a fucking single right here. This is a single. It's a raw naked Monday Made out, ripe in her room

She's declining all raiment I'm unsealing my doom On a raw naked Monday All alone Monday At your door May it come to one more Raw nervy memory Locked and choosing

Love is lightning But I'm burning it up Just like yesterday's skin On a raw, naked Monday Eyes right by the room. It's all of a Monday laid out in a room. No longer a vision, no longer strange. No longer strange First drummer, 1971, Murphy Farrell. And what a beautiful bit of magic she adds to the record.

He's got a master's in jazz, too. Plays an awesome piano. He plays piano on the album, too. On Children of Cali and Love Acute. But she's an amazing singer. Yeah. She's got a beautiful future. Now, again,

it was great live, so it's got that energy. It's great recorded over here. I'm listening to the single. This is, like I said, this is the big single. A lot of great songs on this album. But I'm going to now read

the long-winded, potentially awkward comment question from romanco the lyrical content of shadow walk is very personal as a listener i tend to focus more on the overall sound and feel of a song or album in this respect i hear some stylistic similarities to a number of my favorite artists including nick cave iggy pop john lennon and leonard cohen throughout the album which makes this a very eclectic and distinctive art bergman listening experience vocally i think kurt wagner from lamb chop sounds very similar to you their label merge records and or others should be hounding you to distribute your new album in America and overseas. I suspect your dealings with record labels might require a separate Toronto Mic podcast.

Maybe not. What is your experience been with record labels recently and in the past? Good question. What's the question? Jesus. Your experiences with record labels recently that's long in the past and uh was not a happy one i didn't understand the genius of the worker how to market how to label it uh so there you go i don't know they couldn't i don't do so that listen to that last song beautiful they didn't know how to mark they don't have a market or bergman what would you need

this you don't need anything with that song just it's um how to market art bergman yeah like like like people not me every song's different maybe Maybe that's the problem. Right. Because they want you to fit into a box. Like this is a box for, I don't know, Q107 or whatever. This is a box for Chum FM. I'm just picking on radio stations. But yeah, where does art fit? You're all over the place.

CBC, I guess. Maybe. Good luck there too. No comment. But CBC's would play what is exactly is his question so exactly uh what has your experience been with record labels recently and in the past who's distributing shadow walk here in canada um what's the great, the great Phil Clego of WeWork. Yeah, WeWork. But no,

no, WeWork has a couple other, you just told me about somebody you collected from. What's the distributor around Ontario? I don't know. Not, not, not many people are distributing it.

So Jason, if somebody listening wants to get their like myths on uh shadow walk where do you want them to go um camp yes yeah absolutely i would say go to band camp first arts band camp page just an aside i looked at how much royalties you get from streaming and that it's it's brutal you get to about 0.0012 cents per hundred plays in in some cases so band camp i think they pay but how was that you know you you toss that off as a fact but but how is that legal? Like, how is that? The best thing to do is buy the vinyl. I don't know.

So buy the vinyl. I don't buy vinyl. Buy vinyl directly. Do you sell vinyl? Can we buy vinyl directly from our Birdman? Yeah, directly from WeWork. Oh, from WeWork. Okay.

Right. Cut out. Yeah. So the whole streaming, and again, I don't know when the, I guess this is a post-Napster reality, I suppose, but you're getting fucked. It's a horrifying reality

because there's way more artists now and way more platforms, but you don't get paid and how do you cut through the dress of what's out there to get paid on? Where? Is it a radio? I don't know.

I'm from the old world of radio, so I have no idea how this new world works, really. Jason, you have more. Maybe you have some. Like how does Art Bergman, who puts together a brilliant new album, how does Art pay his rent with that art? Art, Art, I see now. now okay it's all art art squared

um well we're doing i mean you know we're we're doing everything we can just to reach well first of all to reach arts core audience who have you know all 299 and and yeah take a bullet for you, these guys. Well, they will. And I should shout out, we did do crowd, there was crowdfunding for this record. And yeah, we need to give a shout out for all the great people who assisted with the crowdfunding.

You name all 299? GoFundMe, almost 200 people put up uh yeah thousands and thousands of dollars beautiful yeah so uh i mean that's that's always the starting point and then beyond that it's just trying to trying to reach the people who um i want people to hear hear my music so i don't know what's the deal yeah i don't know yeah ronald mike will save me he will how many listeners do you have tens of thousands of listeners nominated for two prestigious canadian podcast awards just uh this like this week yay did you hear that jason i'm very i'm well that's that's why i'm always here whenever I can, Mike.

It's great to be here, Mike, for this iteration of our career together. Last time was weird doing the Zoom thing. You know, I hate them, but you, you were stuck in Alberta. What was I going to do? Look, it was as good as the Zoom gets, right? I got to talk to you twice. Once Jason was here in studio, once it was just you and I, and we did our best uh but i will tell you nothing like the in-person conversation like to me it's like art bergman's right there i can reach out and just scruff his collar there and grab him

by the scruff of his neck and how how was this for you back in the day i guess you were what you'd be going i don't know c cbc i'm trying to think mainstream media right you talk to the big newspapers you talk to the big tv stations, the big radio stations. It was a whole different ball game, right? Uh, after a while. Yeah.

When you got their attention after 10 years of punk. Yeah. Okay. So the punk, cause we're, again, I have songs from the new album, shadow walk now available.

I want to play and talk to you about a couple more beautiful songs. At least that was raw naked Monday, which is great. But I mean, you closed with A Hymn for Us and that song is just hauntingly beautiful too. But the punk era, I still stick, and you can snicker if you want, but I stick Hawaii on the playlist still. I think that's one of the,

maybe the greatest, one of the greatest Canadian punk songs of all time is Hawaii by the Young Canadians. Thank you. Do you ever say, hey, Mike, you hear that, you're like, hey, move on. That was 100 years ago. That's fine. We should live with our contributions to society and take the accolades or brickbats as they come.

How shocked were you when they gave you the Order of Canada? Did you think they had the wrong number? The wrong art? Yes. I don't know how these things work. There were investigations and it turned up nothing. I can say that. Did they think it was Bergman with only one N?

And then they said, oh shit, you're the Bergman of two Ns. Sorry, I'm the wrong guy. I am the recipient of the Order of Canada. Yeah, very shocking. I had no idea where it came from. It takes a bit of influence to get something like that done. Actually, Mike, I think you're well on your way. I think you'll... Order of Canada? I'm looking for the Order of Mimico.

You should get the Order of... Supporting the Order of... Order of Canadian Medals. I'll take what I can get at this point here. Okay, so I'm... Can we move on? I have a desire to play a couple of new songs

because I get to talk to the artist about them and I'm going to make my dreams come true. But I'm going to very quickly shout out two other podcasts. Okay, so you mentioned, I mentioned, I'm up for these Canadian Podcast Awards. Complete bullshit art, but bullshit baffles brains. Okay, you just scream it from the rafters and suddenly people are impressed. This is how it works, right, Jason?

You know what you're doing over there, Jason. Well, my nominations might be bullshit, but I just want to shout out Yes, We Are Open, which is a Moneris podcast because El Grego has been traveling the country talking to small business owners and then sharing their stories on this inspiring podcast. Yes, we are open. Season five is dropping now.

And when Art gets all that money from the tourist agency that licenses Hawaii, he's going to listen to the advantaged investor from Raymond James for some investment tips and best practices. So that's hosted by Chris Cooksey. Hey, side note on Hawaii. Do you know I stole that song? Tell me. Can I play it and then you can tell me?

Can I play it? Whoa. Let's go to fuckin' Hawaii, get drunk in the sun I wanna lay on a wiki key, get a tan on my bun Runnin' from the rain, thousand times around Make it like the rich, headin' for the fun Let's go to fuckin' Tahiti, land on a beach Those native girls are such a treat, trainin' to the Navy Runnin' from the rain, thousand times around What do you mean you stole this, Don? I was blackout drunk at my friend's place, Ross Carpenter.

He was in a band called Active Dog, and he had a notebook laid out, and on the top of the page it said, let's go to fucking Hawaii. And I went home. Next morning I wrote Hawaii and I forgot about what I'd seen on his page. And he reminded me for years and years

and I didn't believe him. And finally, I recall seeing the title, let's go to fucking Hawaii. So I gave him 50% of the song and kudos to him for writing it. I wrote the music. You wrote the music and he basically wrote the idea.

But 50%, good on you for doing that. For sure. A lot of musicians would just fuck him out of that 50% and say, see you in court. Yeah, I get so much from Hawaii. Great jam, though, man. Great song.

Okay, so let's get to the new stuff here. Oh, I want to shout out recyclemyelectronics.ca. That's where you go to find out where you can drop off your old electronics, your old technology, your old devices to be properly recycled. And as we always say on this show, hopefully we won't be saying this for many more decades, Art, but shout out to Ridley Funeral Home. This song,

well, there's so many great songs. What do I play next? I'm just going to play this one here. That's cooler. I'll see you next time. I haunt this house of horror Grind in my glim war of grief Succour a suffocating storm Just like a faith-shattered priest Yeah, I slumped through the air How I need a despair How in evil despair For my phone was secret

And the gun was clear She comes to me A wounded warrior To the gathering feast. She sings of love of hereafter others, of places released. So come to me, wounded mountains, weaning wilderness. There she is again. That's me making those sounds.

That's you making the sounds. We had her in the mix there. Love, I love love. Tell me her in the mix there. Love. I love love. Tell me about writing love. Love times love times love. Yeah, just like art, art, art. We did the art squared. This is love squared.

Tell me. Love cubed. That's for the sequel. That's for the sequel. Tell me about writing love. Well, my consort, a newfound poet, genius, who helped me write this album, wrote those verses as she observed my despair and grief. and after her own loss, her own husband, through a botched surgery, well, 10 years later,

I met her, and she helped me write this record. She wrote most of the lyrics in that song, that part of it, observing me in my grief. And then I write the choruses about the wounded warrior. She's a wounded warrior. And then at the end, I found some lyrics by Sherry, my deceased wife. We went with yeah. Amazing song. Love times love times love

times love Sherry gives Patricia permission to be my new consort is there a time can you apply a time

period to grieving like does it get better no you can't I was lucky I was gonna I was gonna I was going to kill myself after the after the wake for Sherry

I'm glad you did not but why didn't you? what stopped you? this woman that came into my life wrote this album but why didn't you? What stopped you? This woman that came into my life. I love this album. The longest suicide, right, Jason?

Well, yeah. I mean, it is kind of, I don't know if it's ironic now. Ironic's not the right word, but I mean, we had the title for the book already. I had the title before I thought of it, but then i wanted it removed after sherry died yeah and then jason talked me into keeping it yeah it's so fucking awesome yeah it was just in the two words for life instead of one and just it's you know what i'll say like life is Like I cried and laughed in two.

Well, they're similar, right? I find them similar, like laughter. Sometimes if you don't, yeah, if you don't laugh, you cry. And they're, they're both just, it's emotion, right? It's the opposite of indifference and numbness. What scares me is numb. Like, like, like make sure you feel something. And it's amazing you have

an outlet for what you're feeling that you have this talent this ability to actually create art from your pain yes, it saved my life too yeah how many, I was going to say there's more albums in our Bergman

we might need to get you a new hip or something but you've got more albums than you what did you say about who what i like i gotta talk to talk to yeah the new tragically hip i gotta tell how could that be talk to jason which is that uh what i love about art we're gonna talk about art like he's not here is you're not i'm never 100 sure. Art, he's sneaky funny, but sometimes you're not sure. He's very funny. You're not sure.

He's very funny. He's kind of mischievous. And it's like you kind of have to get on that same wavelength and ride that wave. I love to be exciting, my wordsies. And sometimes I think maybe Art just wants to fuck with you a little bit just to see how you react. No, I'm trying

to ascertain the truth of the hip put it into words and say them to you well yeah no it's it's something that you know writing the book I had to kind of get used to you have to adapt to it right well no

because art you know it the good thing about it was you know art questioned almost everything and um you know that's to be challenged like that you know obviously um you know it it made the book it made my bright my writing better i hope and um and you know like we came out of the process at the end of it i think with um with something um yeah sherry died right at the end editing final editing was happening and i was like out of there so i'm thinking thankfully it got done yeah yeah it was a very uh very challenging uh situation for uh for a couple of months.

But it forced me to dig deep and come up with a way to end the book in a way that was respectful and at the same time, you know, emotionally. Available. Available, yeah. You know, you're just reflecting reality, right? Yeah. So, you know, we don't write reality. Like, it unfolds in real time.

Yeah. We experience it. Well, yeah, and I i mean that was the hardest part because you know sherry's input to the book was i mean the book wouldn't have existed without her input and um because she had to help art with the zooms yeah but she you know she her her her her her perspective on on things was um was just just, it was crucial. Am I wrong? Like there was never a thought that the art would outlive Sherry, right?

Like, and I mean this respectfully, Art, you were supposed to die a long time ago. That's true. So it's me, man. And I'm, again, I feel like I'm, it's like, well, read your book jason like uh like art it was tragic unto itself 30 years you were with sherry disembodied yeah and then she and this is march 2002 22 sorry 2022 march uh that sherry died suddenly but you were supposed to go first

like i mean i mean that with all due respect well Well, I mean, that's the thing about reality. We were going to go together. She had health problems, and she won't have to live through those. So maybe, you know. But it's still soul-crushing. But I'm going to play a song here. But before I play this final song from Shadow Walk, and again, I heard it last night, and it closed the night so beautifully.

But I was wondering if you could just share a little bit of detail about where did you record Shadow Walk, and again, I heard it last night, and it closed the night so beautifully, but I was wondering if you could just share a little of the detail about where did you record Shadow Walk? Did you do it in BC? I recorded as the songs came up from Sherry's death on, and recorded like every month I had a new song at least, or every two or three weeks. Russell Broome gave me carte blanche to come in anytime I had a new song. Amazing.

And yeah, donated time. And then we got the grant through Wes Smith in BC to record BC and I was moving there. So it all serendipitously worked out so well. all serendipitously worked out so well. And we ended up recording at Turtle Sound on Ocean Beach, beautiful spot, and three days bed tracks. And then in North Surrey over the Fraser River in a tiny little reggae studio for overdubs. And 10 days.

Wow. Okay, 12 songs in 10 days. Wow. Okay, 12 jams, 12 songs in 10 days. Amazing. Russell went home to Alberta, took the tapes as it were and did all the mixing back there. Jason, do you think there's

a Juno Award in Arts Future for this album? Well, I don't think it's a Juno Award in Arts Future for this album? Wow. You have to... I don't think you have to sell. The Juno's reward is success,

right? It's amazing only because just earlier today I was chatting with Sylvia Tyson and she said the same sentence

and apparently she was on the Juno board at some point. Sylvia Tyson was on the board. She said the same thing because she said that commercial success seems to be rewarded by Junos.

But that's not the way it's supposed to be. That's what the Polaris was made for. Right. But that rewards one total album. That's right. Which is okay. But at least you get cash for that one. I don't think the Junos give you cash, right?

But Patricia Kay, who wrote this record with me, paid up bucks to join Kara so she could nominate me. Wow. Okay. Okay. And you mentioned already Donna Kerbel. And yeah, and this Russell Broome seems like a gift from the heavens here. For sure, man.

That guy's a genius. Should talk to him. I'd talk to Russell Broome. Okay. Love it. Maybe if I get a Broome sponsor, we could tie it all together here somehow. But all right. This one's heavy.

I mean, they're all heavy. He was with Jan Arden for years, right? Mm-hmm. There's some commercial success for you. All right. So there's, this is, okay, this is, oh, you wanted to, you can, okay. This is, yes, but it it's not it's room temperature how long are we speaking um i need to keep my throat wet room temperature's fine i'm gonna explode no

burst okay okay help yourself last one don't tell anyone no i mean no one's listening but here i'm gonna kick out a hymn for us. A hymn for us. You know what? Sherry, okay. You can talk over the opening. And Sherry woke me up at five in the morning

and said, please, a hymn for all of us. And I wrote it in an hour. Amazing. Thank you. Please let him for all of us We who live and who we lost

We search for love at life's cost Please let him for all of us May they live in new lives and fields In blinding beauty that does not yield Memories treasure we always feel Roll away the stone Let's see the snow In darkest nightmare you dream

Wilding light that you seek That glories sparks in every child If built into a fire Thank you. Before they learn to lie Give them a love that never dies You know love's a legacy Legacy of love You know love's a legacy Legacy of love Love I see it's a life in every gun

No, don't flinch, it must be done Shoot them hard into the ground Make growing joy the only sound Thank you. Let kindness be the future for you and me. In our loves a legacy, legacy of love. In our loves a legacy, legacy of love And our love's a legacy, legacy of love Legacy of love Legacy of love. Legacy of love.

Dance. Wow, Art, that's something, man. That's amazing. Yep. Just sometimes I can listen, sometimes I can't. This is one of those times I could... I got no words. Just, again, I'm sorry.

I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Yeah, maybe I should play well cause you miss her that's why it reminds you of her it makes sense to me remembering somebody you loved and love

and you can't call her after this and talk to her and that's gotta hurt man and like we talked about there's no time on grieving Loved and loved, and you can't call her after this and talk to her, and that's got to hurt, man. And like we talked about, there's no time on grieving. No, no, no, yeah, right. You asked about that. No, there isn't. Well, if I can jump in maybe.

If we want to, you know, talk about another, well, another, my favorite song on the album is Children of Cali. And that's, you know, the message in that song, I think, is one of hope. Are you kidding? Well, in some kidding? Well, in, in, in some ways, I mean,

no, yeah, it's hope for the future, but, but the first time I heard it, I mean, that line of, you know, arm,

arm, your love, avenge the world. To me, that's, you know, that's the message I think we all, we all need at this,

at this moment. Yes. Optimist. all we all need at this at this moment yes there's nothing games Revenge On your love On your love Avenge the world Avenge the world Children of Cali String your bows

Shoot your arrows Deep into the heart of me Soul is misery Children of Kali Sink your teeth into the hand That feeds you poison pills Life unfulfilled the angelians

in rebellion with love's revenge avenge your world on your love I'm your love I've been to the world Been to the world

Beautiful. So Jason, what's next for Art? Like are you guys doing like a little promo tour for the new album? Well, tomorrow actually if people are going to be hearing this before tomorrow. Some will. Some will, for sure.

So Art and I are going to be at the West End Phoenix office for a discussion about the book, about The Longest Suicide, with our moderator, the great Mary Dickey. And, yeah, it's, I mean, I was told, well, you know, the space isn't that large, so I was told that it's, the RSVPp list is at capacity but i'm sure if anyone uh they have the shitty security there yeah you can sneak in so yeah if anyone wanted to to drop in i'm sure we could find a place for you so uh that starts at uh 1 p.m tomorrow and we're gonna go for

a couple hours and i'll tell you what i'll send note. I'll send a text to Mary Dickey. I'll say no Buffy questions and don't talk about Israel and Hamas. Just don't want to poison the room like I tried to do today. But I think we saved it. Did this go okay? And again, we'll hear

from Art in a moment. He's freshening up right now. But did this go okay? It's not your typical paint-by-numbers. I didn't mean to kind of like... You gave me that evil eye. I got a little scared.

Get to the music, asshole. Well, I mean, I had to put on my publicist hat there for a second. If I had known you were the publicist, I wouldn't have let you down here. I don't do the publicist thing. I thought you were just a friend of Art.

I thought you were the official biographer. Thank you. That's where I want to close, Art. This is the best interview of my life. Is it? It's the only one, one maybe the only one you can remember right now art though i do want to thank you sincerely because you took the time out of your busy uh toronto visit you only have a few days here and you you made the time to visit my

basement and chat me up for over an hour and you know yeah maybe i should have stuck to the music but anyone who listens to toronto mike knows we don't stick to the music on this show and I was legit curious about your perspective on a couple of other issues and I appreciate you talking and playing the music because people don't but um and knowing about the music and knowing about my songs do you ever do an interview with someone refreshing yeah if you ever do an interview with someone? It's fucking refreshing. Yeah, if you ever do an interview with someone and you know they didn't listen to the new album. Tell me what it's about. I was there last night

and I know I had to prove to you with my stamp. You needed some evidence here, but I got selfies and everything with you in the background. Why didn't you come and say hi? Well, you know why? I actually thought about doing it

and then I thought, oh, he won't remember the Zooms with me. Yes, I would. I wondered this morning if you were there i didn't think you would come why you live way out here i biked over it's not a bike that's not you think that's a long way good i'm here to impress you no no yeah yeah i think it's 14 kilometers each way i think it was easy yeah and i will say you were late uh coming on stage and I'm getting older and I I was I late a little bit like I don't know I what do you think actually I think I I I gave people the wrong so Jason I'll tell you I know my real talk Jason said you hit the stage at 9 30 and you hit the stage closer to 11 yeah that was my fitting act is 9 30 yeah right yeah I'll take

sorry about Jason takes the hit no it's not please Please. I got to remember that because I don't stay up late either. But I'll tell you, you know, I think I got home shortly after one o'clock in the morning, but that bike ride home, I bike west on the waterfront trail after what a thoroughly enjoyable our Bergman concert experience. I got to say, what a great ride that was. Like it just, I was riding that high, you know know when you see a good show and then you're out there and you just feel good man that's what music does to me it fuels me

so I want to thank you for the music does that to me too that's why I'm actually gonna bet you've got another 30 years in you maybe several more albums so maybe we'll get more visits but anything on your mind before I wrap this up?

I want to thank you for intelligent, beautiful back and forth and playing the best songs on the record. They're all great, but for choosing the songs and listening to them and asking about them.

It's really refreshing. And I got, like I said, Ron Hawkins is here next week, and I'm going to play Life Indicates Art. I saw Ron last night, yeah. Yeah, I saw him there too. Gave him a big hug. And I really do think this should be a lowest of the low art Bergman collaboration.

I do too. I'm going to work on it. Jason, I got your permission? I can work this deal? Get back to the revolution shortly. After this pizza. the revolution will not be televised but it might be podcasted no we have to go offline

the children of Cali off the grid and that brings us to the end is this your theme song I close every episode with Rosie and Grave from Shakespeare and My Bites. Why don't you pick one of my songs? Well, because...

Because you got this one. Because this is a Toronto song. You're too Vancouver for me, Art. Oh, yeah. Fuck you. Finally! I was waiting for that clip there. Fuck you.

And that brings us to the end of our 1,358th show. All of his art world. Art Bergman's in-person debut. He'll be back. Jason, you'll deliver him to me again, right, buddy?

One way or another. And thanks to you, Jason. I love it when you bring me new music, fresh meat, and you inspire me too. You're kicking ass with your... Old meat. I'll it when you bring me new music, fresh meat, and you inspire me too. You're kicking ass with your... Old meat. I'll take old meat.

Smoke that. Absolutely. So thank you, Jason. My skin's new. You're welcome. You can follow me. I'm on Blue Sky and Twitter. I'm at Toronto Mike. I don't know. Is this for Art or Jason? Where's the best place to track all things Bergman?

I don't know. Is this for Art or Jason? Where's the best place to track all things Bergman? I don't know, Art. You're starting. On Facebook every day? Yeah. I was going to say that. I have a page that has all my material on it. And WeWork, Bandcamp, Art Bergman. Remember, two N's in Bergman.

Yes, Alan Cross. Two N's in Bergman. You know Alan Cross. Two N's in Bergman. You know, Alan. Listen, I'm in the Millionaires Club. They told me I have $5 million. Is that on Forbes.com? Yeah. Did Alan Cross forget the second N, Jason?

He always seems to do that. I don't know why. I think he's passive aggressive. He's doing it on purpose. Okay. It doesn't matter. It's a Nazi thing. It's kind of like Jake Gold with, you know, the Tragically Hip. Do you know how many times I've had

the evil eye from Jake Gold because I said we're kicking out Tragically Hip songs? I know. Yeah. I know. I'm like that with Art with the two ends. What did he want with... He wants the T-H-E. The? He wants that.

It has to be in there. You can't say tragically hip. It has to be the tragically hip. Pretentious, right? The is the copy written. Just be glad I'm consuming your art. Be glad I'm giving you all my money. Be glad I'm buying the concert tickets and I'm buying the albums.

Appreciate that I enjoy your art, right? Yes. So if I want to spell Bergman with one N, that's my right. You know what? It doesn't matter. Art doesn't care. One N is Jewish, though.

Okay. And that is that. Much love to those who made this possible. That's Great Lakes Brewery. Palma Pasta. I do have that lasagna for the woman who's hosting you there.

Raymond James Canada, Moneris, Recycle My Electronics, and Ridley Funeral Home. See you all Monday and you're going to hear my conversation with Sylvia Tyson.

See you all then. places I better not name And I've seen the sun go down on Chaclacour But I like it much better going down on you Yeah, you know that's true because everything is coming up rosy and green

Yeah, the wind is cold but the smell of snow Warms us today And your smile is fine And it's just like mine And it won't go away Cause everything is Rosie now

Everything is Rosie Yeah, everything is Rosie and Gray Yeah Yeah, everything is rosy and gray