Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - Ben Johnson: Toronto Mike'd Podcast Episode 1474

Episode Date: April 22, 2024

In this 1474th episode of Toronto Mike'd, Mike chats with Ben Johnson about running 9.79 at the 1988 Olympics in Seoul, being disqualified and stripped of his medal, living with this shame, and surviving to find happiness. Mary Ormsby joins us to answer the burning question "can a guilty person be done dirty on the world's stage". We talked about his early years of training, being coached by Charlie Francis, setting the world record of 9.83 in Rome at the World Championships in Rome, running 9.79 at the Olympics in Seoul in 1988, testing positive for anabolic steroids, getting stripped of his gold medal and world record, why he believes he was denied due process and set up to fail, appearing in the Cheetah energy drink ad with Frank D'Angelo, becoming a grandfather and saving for retirement in Jamaica. Toronto Mike'd is proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, Palma Pasta, Ridley Funeral Home, The Advantaged Investor podcast from Raymond James Canada, The Yes, We Are Open podcast from Moneris, The Toronto Maple Leafs Baseball Team and RecycleMyElectronics.ca. If you would like to support the show, we do have partner opportunities available. Please email Toronto Mike at [e-mail]

Unbelievable! 9-7-9! Welcome to episode 1474 of Toronto Miked, proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, a fiercely independent craft brewery who believes in supporting communities, good times, and brewing amazing beer. Order online for free local home delivery in the GTA. Palma Pasta! Enjoy the taste of fresh, homemade Italian pasta and entrees from Palma Pasta in Mississauga and Oakville. The Toronto Maple Leafs baseball team, the best baseball in the city outside the dome. Join the club and purchase a membership today at MapleleafsBaseball.com. RecycleMyElectronics.ca, committing to our planet's future, means properly recycling our electronics of the past.

The Advantage Investor podcast from Raymond James Canada, valuable perspective for Canadian investors who want to remain knowledgeable, informed and focused on long-term success. Season 6 of Yes We Are Open, an award-winning Meneris podcast hosted by FOTML Grego and Ridley Funeral Home, pillars of the community since 1921. Today, making his Toronto mic debut is Ben Johnson. Welcome, Ben. Thank you, how are you?

It's great to meet you, what a pleasure. Honestly, I saw you at the door earlier and I'm like, Ben Johnson's here. Like it's just, it's wild. So thank you for being here. Okay. Thanks. You get that response often, like somebody meets you and like, it's almost like you're like a superhero and it's like, oh my god, you're actually like in the flesh. You're here as a human being. I'm glad to be above dirt. Yeah. So no, no shout out to Ridley funeral home for you. You're on the right side of the dirt here. And Mary that laugh you hear that is FOTM Mary Ormsby.

Mary, welcome back to Toronto, Mike. It's great to be back. Thank you for inviting me. And you know, I have to dock your pay because you were late today. I'm very, very sorry to both of you. I just hate the Gardiner Expressway. Let the record show Ben was early and I appreciate that respect, Mr.

Mr. Johnson. So thank you. All right. So I just want to let the listenership know that Mary has been here before, but Mary, this is your first visit to the basement. That's right. It was during COVID and we were outside in November, I believe it was a bit cool, but we had a great time. Yeah, it was October. I'm here to fact check you here, Robert Lawson-Style. So it was October 2020,

but it was cool back there. We were in the backyard. How underwhelmed are you by the basement since your only other visit was the backyard, even though it was cool? Like, are you like, what are your thoughts on this basement that you probably heard content recorded in this basement, but you'd never been here before? I would say it's really, really cozy. Oh, that's what the real estate agents say when it's small. Okay. So, uh, for people who want to go back and hear the original deep dive of Mary Ormsby, because this episode's going to be about Ben, but if you want to hear about Mary Ormsby and Paul Hunter, Mary, do you know who this Paul Hunter gentlemen is?

Never heard of him. It's nice to meet him though. You met him for the first time in my backyard in October, 2020. Uh, that was episode 742. We talked about your decision, both of you, uh, you and Paul, you decided to leave the Toronto Star. We talked about your decades at the paper. We talked about how you were on sports radio on the fan and the team. Shout

out to the team 1050 and why there are so few women on the air today on sports radio in this country. And we chatted for 92 minutes. I hope you had a great time. We did have a great time. It was a lot of fun. Did you get a lasagna? I did and I think I got some beer. Okay, so No, Ben, I learned I had a good chat with Ben We're gonna hear much more Ben very very soon here, but Ben no longer drinks so good on you Ben How long you've been sober since 2008? Okay, did you get a chip or anything or no? You're just you just you just don't need to drink and you choose not to drink.

You're not... I choose not to drink anymore. Well that's why Mary is taking the beer home. You love life. Okay, so good on you. This will all be uncovered in our chat here today. But Mary, you can bring home for Paul and yourself some fresh craft beer from Great Lakes Brewery.

And I did chat with Ben before because I knew he no longer drinks. And I said, Ben, please tell me you have not given up Italian food. And Ben, you still love Italian food, right? I still love it, but I can't eat too much pasta because I have full allergies. Oh, no. What? Like, is it a lactose thing or? Yes. Oh, that's okay. Well, listen, listen, I hear you're a grandfather now, so we can feed the grandkids with the palm of pasta lasagna that you're going to take home

with you today. Okay. You today okay your grandfather like I just said that like it but that's amazing I learned that in Mary's book so Mary wrote a book called world's fastest man the incredible life of Ben Johnson Mary good job I really enjoyed reading this book thank you so Mary before I you know I was gonna pass the baton to Ben to take us home, he's had that happen a few times in his life, but tell us why did you decide to write The World's Fastest Man, The Incredible Life of Ben Johnson? Well, I think over the years after Soul, Ben and I kept in touch and would do stories on, you know,

different anniversaries of Soul and try to catch up with some of his business ventures and along the way we began chatting about, well, you know, what happened in Seoul. And so we got asking more questions and then there was that great documentary 979. There was a few more bits of information in that, that made me think, oh, wow. I wonder if we missed something the first time around. So that led to a few stories in the Toronto star, one being getting hold of Ben's actual copy of his drug test in Seoul.

Yeah. And from there, Ben became more interested, not just answering questions for Toronto Star stories, but you know, we began be more engaged with the material. Is there something here more? Would you be interested in writing a book? And eventually I thought, well, after I left the star, yes, I've got time. I'm interested in this. And I always thought along the way, when we began digging into it, there was a

miscarriage of justice that really should be addressed. So that's it kind of in a nutshell. What a wild story. Now, before we hear from, from Ben, I can't believe Ben's here by the way, cause Mary, we can tell the listenership, like originally this was just you on Toronto mic'd like I booked this. Yeah. So originally, I think I think at least I might have misunderstood a few things, but I had Mary Orrins be visiting and I was excited to talk to you about the book and talk about Ben. And then you said to me, like, how about would like I don't know how you phrased it, but maybe would you like Ben Johnson there as well?

And I'm like, Mary, you're now fired. Get out of my basement. I got Ben Johnson. I don't need you anymore, but I'm happy to have you both here and what are your thoughts on Ben the person like having covered Ben for so many years and having written this book about Ben Johnson we're gonna talk about him like he's not here okay so pretend he's not here but what are your thoughts on Ben you know Ben the human being? Watch it. Well as I got to know him better you know through the star stories, then through this

whole process, you know, he is a wonderful companion to be working on a project. He's funny, he's deep, he's punctual, he's always on time, he's never late. Apparently. Take some tips. Yeah, I will. And he was really dedicated to having his voice heard and talking about this book and going to some very deep places at times that were painful and troubling and he's candid and honest. And I wouldn't, I'd say that even if he wasn't sitting here beside me, but I learned so much

more about him. And if I could say one more thing before you talk to Ben, because I never want to speak for him. And when I said, you know, would you like to have been here? Like I have then I have to ask Ben, do you want to come here? But he you know, he deserved to be shown as someone who is more than this one-dimensional man from Seoul, complex, rich, full human being who's got a lot to say and is worth everyone's time for a conversation. I felt a pretty great human being.

And it comes across in the book, and again, thank you Mary Mary, for writing this book. And thank you for connecting me with Ben because now I get to hear from the man himself. So now I'll plug back in his headphones so he can hear us because, you know, I didn't have been hearing all those words. I was worried what you might say, but a couple of nice notes just to warm Ben up here. Not that he needs warming up, but Tommy Finn wrote in and said, awesome. I just wrote on Twitter that Ben Johnson was coming over to make his Toronto Mike debut. And Tommy Finn said, awesome. I just wrote on Twitter that Ben Johnson was coming over to make his Toronto Mike debut. And Tommy Finn said, awesome. I haven't seen him at the Longos in Markham for a while now. He's a good man.

So please, let's let Tommy know, Ben, you moved away, right? Like you didn't just change grocery stores. You actually moved out of the neighborhood. I moved to the neighborhood, yeah. But I passed there once in a while, but I never have a chance to get in. But since they missed me,

I have to go back down there and check it out. It's funny how when you say, you know, people are always telling me where they've seen Ben in the wild. It's like, oh, there was a Ben spotting. It's like, I was just excited to see in the wild. Here's a fun little memory, I think, from Gordon Wong, who said, awesome, I'm looking forward to it. I remember seeing him at the gym once in a while and all he kept doing was repeating the word Testa Rosa like was this a mantra or something like you'd be lifting weights and you'd be like Testa Rosa

Come on. Let's hear the real talk here test the Rose No, I know it was at the gym one day. I'm just working out and you know Everything's come back to my mind about the card I used to have and all nice was to have a car But I don't make it a problem like you know worship some material thing come back to my mind about the car that I used to have and how nice it was to have a car, but I don't make it a problem like, you know, worship some material thing, but it was just nice to have as a young boy, growing up, like, always nice to have a Testarossa.

How old were you when you owned that automobile? I was about 20, 26, 26 years old. Okay, what are you driving these days? I'm driving a Cadillac. Okay. Look, you know, okay. I'm like, I'm ready. It's going to be like a 95 Honda Civic or something.

I love Honda. Honda's a nice car. Nothing. No, no, no shame in that game at all. You kidding me? I drive a bicycle. Okay. You can give me a lift somewhere.

I appreciate it. But, uh, here's the place where most people had fond memories of spotting you. And I'm going to give credit to Pearl Jam Pat first. He goes, I met Ben Johnson outside of Berlin nightclub at Young and Eglinton. The night Joe Carter hit his World Series walk off home run. He gave me his autograph. Heck of a nice guy. 979 will always be a gold medal winning time for me.

So that's Pearl Jam Pat remembering you at Berlin. Thank you Pat. Speaking of Berlin and I think Mary you can, maybe you've heard this episode or maybe it's in the queue but did you know Mary that Mark Swolinski was over here on Friday? I did know that. Okay so he was here for his exit interview

and even though he hasn't worked at the Toronto Star since last November, it took him a while to get here. But 41 years at the Star, a similar story to yours. He has a brother who was part of the Berlin house band and Mark was telling me all these great stories about Ben at Berlin. So Ben, was that your go-to nightclub? What are your memories of Berlin at Young and Eglinton? Berlin was very nice. It was a nice crowd, quiet, you know, people enjoyed themselves. There's no fussing and fighting. Everybody was just having a good time.

People dressed good and meet a lot of people and a lot of people get married out of there. You know, so it was a nice place and every time I go up the guard, the security always know that I'm coming up so they always say, okay, Ben is coming in and we just get a VIP upstairs. So it was, it was a nice club. Okay. Mary, did you, there should have been a whole like chapter on Berlin, I feel like, uh, you know, more Berlin content in the book. What do you think?

Yeah, I'm had to cut a few, uh, lines here and there, you know, but, uh, he didn't actually spill the beans on Berlin. I didn't know it was Berlin he was at. So, well, you know, you should have talked to me, Mary. I have all the inside scoops and all of Toronto's legends here. So, uh, speaking of Toronto's legends, even though he moved to Kingston, Ontario, but Gare Joyce is listening right now.

So hello to Gare Joyce. And he says, be sure to ask Ben about Mike Dwyer at Runamede and Roger Malcolm at East York. This is Gare's words, Ben said don't hurt me. He said they beat him like a drum in high school and Roger worked out maybe once a week and played soccer. So I'm trying to think, so back in high school you were beatable Ben, like this Mike Dwyer fellow and Roger Malcolm were able to run faster than you? Well Roger Malcolm was a good runner. One time I wasn't really paying attention at the starts, and the guys just sat there and get away from me,

and I thought that I would be able to catch him down the line, but I couldn't catch him. And then one time again, in the 200 meters, because I'm not a 200 meter guy. It's too far. That doesn't count. It's too far. That doesn't count.

So we're at the 200 meters, and we were neck to neck coming off the off the corner and then about the last 40 meters I got tied up and he just beat me again. So how old are you Ben when you realize that you know no one in this country is gonna beat you in the hundred meter like like like when does that click in I mean you're beatable and sounds like you're beatable in high school but when about do you realize I am the fastest man in this country?

Well, my times go up and down. I think I started beating the senior's boys around 1981. I do work up in Rome when I was qualified to the final for work of trials, and I finished second behind Colin Bradford from Jamaica. Okay. I run 1022

you know, 19 years old pretty pretty good. Yeah. Well, listen, okay. Are you kidding me? I can't drive that fast. Okay. That's pretty impressive here. All right. So we will touch back and some some old stuff and Mary you can chime in whenever

consider yourself co-host of this program here because I'm you know, you're the expert. And if you there's something you want to prompt and ask Ben about, please just stomp right over me. You're Mary Ormsby for goodness sakes. Okay, just stomp right over me. But there's another FOTM. Now Ben's like, who are these FOTM? Well, Ben, I got news for you.

You're now an FOTM. That's friend of Toronto Mike. So welcome to the club. Welcome. Oh, yeah. You listen, it's an esteemed club. So welcome to the club. Welcome. Oh yeah, you listen, it's an esteemed club. It has Stephen Brunt in it. So that's why I'm going here.

Stephen Brunt and Mary, I love what he wrote for your book. Isn't that lovely? Yeah, and Stephen Brunt's lovely. Not only did he appear at the most recent Toronto Mike listener experience last December, but he will be at, and I gotta shout them out because he's gonna be at the Toronto Maple Leafs baseball home opener at Christie Pitts on May 12th.

And I'm gonna be recording live, and Stephen's gonna be on the mic with me chatting. And just since I brought up Toronto Maple Leafs baseball, two quick things here. Ben, one is that you're invited there too, man. We would love to have you out for the home opener on May 12th at 2 p.m. at Christie Pitts. That's an official invitation for you.

May 12th. May 12th, 2 p.m., Christie Pitts Pitts. That's an official invitation for you. May 12. May 12. 2 p.m. Christie Pitts. If I'm in the country, I definitely will come. Okay. Listen, that's a commitment right there. You and I recorded that. But each of you, Mary, you're getting one too, of course. The history book, the amazing history book of Toronto Maple Leafs baseball. That's another gift for you making the trek here. Thank you. So there's one for you there too, Ben. So Stephen Brunt, why am I bringing him up? He calls the moment, I'm gonna play a little audio, he calls this moment the greatest moment in Canadian sports

history. Let's listen. And it's a fair start and it is Raymond Currie with a start and it is Ben Johnson with a start. Can Carl catch him? No! It's Ben Johnson! Ben Johnson does it again! Unbelievable! 9-7! 9! Absolutely incredible! So Ben, listening to that clip, I'm sure you've heard that a few million times, but how does it feel right now? Just let me know how it feels to hear that. I didn't know that was that fast. But listen, you put up your arm. I guess so many questions. I can't believe you're here. Okay, so you stick up your arm. Like how fast would you have run if you just ran through the finish line? Because you let up at the end.

About 971, 972 at that time. So you're more excited that you beat Carl Lewis, I think, than you are about getting the lowest time possible, right? I got to say, in the moment, I remember ecstatic. I was so ecstatic watching that moment that not only Canadian Ben Johnson winning gold, but setting the world record, beating Carl Lewis. That was everything to me. I was 14 years old, but I definitely definitely remember saying he let up at the end like you I was like how fast would Ben

have run if he hadn't let up at the end so you're saying 971 yes correct I think too for younger listeners they may not understand the incredible intense rivalry that was building over the years between Carl Lewis tall flashy flamboyant Braggart of an American rival and Ben Johnson quiet Understated, you know, he's just gonna go about his business and Ben kept beating Carl from about 1985-86 on so they were two of the greatest known 1885-86 on. So they were two of the greatest known athletes in the world around a time when Maradona was still out there. So these were some of their, you know, their confreres at that time. So by the time they'd gotten to Seoul, there was a lot of bad blood spoken

and unspoken. So I might leave this up to Ben at this point because I was a bit surprised when he went to the 100 meter final and put his arm in the air. But Ben said he had a plan because Carl Lewis had been talking trash earlier that summer about Ben. Right. Now, Ben, did you have a plan going to that race? What you were going to do? Well, my plan was, you know, like the night before I tell Mary in the book

that, you know, I do a lot of meditation, do the race and my warm up and my preparation mentally and physically and emotionally. So I I know that it wasn't be a not going to be an easy task, but I was prepared and ready to run, especially when my mom was in the stands. My sister and my father in Jamaica watching. So I, you know, I walk inside the stadium on the tunnel and I walked in, I said, everybody listen to the spikes and I said, which one of you guys is going to come in second? And nobody looked at me like they want to kill me.

Can you imagine? So so I just got my gears and I the official let me see my spikes to make sure depends and everything was intact and I put my spikes on and they give me my numbers and my seats and they walk us out and I just just get ready to show the world and to be entertained because people come to be entertained, so that's what they're gonna get. Well, you definitely entertained us, of course. Now, DJ Dream Doctor, again, I got lots of questions, I'll sprinkle them throughout when they're appropriate, but this is an interesting question. He goes, I would like to know if Ben,

this is DJ Dream Doctor's words, if Ben hates Carl Lewis on a deep personal level. Well, you know, I love human beings. And when it comes to Carl, I'm not one of his best friends because here are the just guy who won four gold medal in 19 year four Olympic games. You know, make a lot of money,

making a lot of dersemen, be the type of guy he is. And when somebody comes on the scene afterwards and says this is my turn, he still wants to be the man he used to be. And I said no, this is not your time now. This is Ben Johnson's time now. It's Ben's time, who's gonna finish second? And 979, you blew him away in that race again.

So we will talk through this here, but at this moment you're a world champion here. I wanna credit to Ghostrunner on third because he wanted to know his and you've already answered the question But if you had run that perfect race and you had not slowed up at the finish how far you would go and I'm just Taking a note here nine seven one that's on the record here Ben Johnson would have ran nine seven one now my question for you Ben This is today We have come a long way with regards not only to the track, but the technology and the shoes and nutrition and training and stuff. So this is my question for you.

If you're in your prime today, your prime, Ben, I give you a time machine, you're in your prime, today's technology, today's shoes, today's training, today what we know about nutrition, et cetera, how fast could you run today? Well, back then when I slowed down and I met Charlie underneath the tunnel and Charlie go, you smile and go, why'd you slow down? You know, I say, I just want to win the gold medal and turn around when they go metal by send a work at the same time. And I said, well, hopefully next time, when I get the chances, I'm going to go full troll. And they say, well, OK.

Then then I I do believe back in my days, the truck wasn't as great as it was, you know, back then. And the truck started changing since around 1996. Right. If you get even a tennis ball and put it on the truck, it can roll down. So they use the track as a downhill, slightly downhill, but a naked high won't pick it up because everybody's

chit-chatting and smiling and on the phone and blah blah. But athletes like ourselves we can see what the changes are on the track. The tighter the rubber is the faster the track is. I was programmed in my head to run 948. 948? And I also run faster in practice. When I run in Seoul, I run faster in practice. Okay, so today, like if you were running, if you're you and your prime, but with today's track, today's shoes, today's everything else, you could run, you'd run under one, under 9.5.

9.5, exactly. 9.4. Yeah. Wow. Okay. Because you have to understand that every Olympic games, the technology get better and better and better and better. Right. That's why I always wonder like we take 1988 Ben and we, uh, we run them today. What would happen? Okay. Nine four eight or whatever. That's amazing. Mary, where exactly were you when the race happened and Ben ran nine seven nine? Where were you? I was in Seoul's Olympic Stadium in the press area, beyond the finish line,

and I saw a pretty good race. Four guys ran under 10 seconds that day. Wow. It's a race for the ages. So it's a race for the ages, but we're still talking about it today. So we're gonna, we're gonna dive into this. Okay. But would you mind, Ben, sharing with us a little bit about how you met Charlie Francis and his role in your athletic career? My brother was in the Discover Ultimate Struck Club before I do, and I was going to secondary school and I was competing for my school with different schools in North York at Bridgeman Stadium. I was competing for my school with different schools in North York at Bridgeman Stadium and I, we participate in all events and I came up with four ribbons, just ribbons, not trophies, ribbons back in those days.

Right. So he was doing his homework and I put the ribbons on the table and he goes, what's those? I said, ribbons. Then he goes, Oh, the whole first place. I said, yeah. Then he said, what, the whole first place. I said, yeah. Then he said, oh, first to the run. I said, I run 11.5 at a time. You know, I was only 90 pounds, you know, skinny kid.

So he said to me that if I want to come out to his track club, and I said, wow, yeah, I'd love to, you know, young kid like that, won't go to a track club, it's a big thing. So I decided, yeah, and then he bring me out and Charlie just finished his career and he was in his stands, like the bleach is talking and he's talking to me and I was looking at his face,

I was looking at his legs, how big his calf and leg was. And I said, so he said to me, I heard that you pretty fast and you want to do track. And I said, yeah. And you said, okay, go and warm with the rest of the guys and sort of warm up. And I was the one the youngest one in the club. So you have to imagine how much harder have to run to keep up with those guys. Sure. And then after maybe the first week, I quit, I said, man, that's too hard.

So I quit. I quit for almost like six weeks and playing soccer with my friends in the park. I had a good time so my brother I was like come home and push me around and hit me and say you know Charlie see how good things in you that you can run fast and you disappoint me and stuff like that and and I said I don't want to run anymore. So I said, Mom, had he's hit me and, you know, so I started crying to my mother. I said to her, leave him alone. He doesn't want to run track. We don't want to leave him alone. And then after a few weeks later, I feel sorry for him.

Like I can see the sun is in his face. And I said to I said to I said, Eddie, OK, I want to come back. And then we go back to Charlie and Charlie., okay, since you can't do this kind of workout, we're going to tailor-made a record for you that you feel comfortable with. So they worked on a piece of paper and gave it to me and I put it in my pocket and I started to work out each for each set. And he came back and I said, I'm finished. He goes, oh, you like that?

He said, I said, like, it's nice. So all my other teammates was running like 500 and 600. And I couldn't do that stuff. But isn't that extraordinary about, about Charlie Francis though? This is in the seventies. And when normally you would be just, you just did what you were told, right? Charlie sees a young athlete, tailor something to him, so he gets confidence and maybe he'll stick around.

So I mean, that is part of the magic of Charlie. And then in an alternate universe where he doesn't do that or, you know, maybe Ben, you don't come back. There's no 979 in Seoul. Like, it's just wild to think about like sliding door's idea of what kind of has to break right for this all to unfold here. But Charlie clearly, like Charlie saw, I'm guessing, maybe you'll speak to this, Ben, but Charlie saw potential, like a future champion with the right mentoring and training that

you could potentially be the fastest man in the world. Well, you know Yes, you know we we trains over the years and sometime we go to Charlie's house for do some muscle stim and And then his father's talking his sense talking with Charlie inside and out of room and we can hear what if what's going on? I think his father go. Well, you're training all these black guys, you know, you know what's going on? And he's far to go, why you treating all these black guys? You know, you spend a lot of time doing this and they're trying to say, well, you know,

these guys, they're hungry, they're punctual, they're hungry, they want to run track and they're strong and they're fit. And it's okay, well, if they think that this is what you want to do, that's fine, you know? So I laugh and, you know, sometimes I walk out there, walking normal and come back walking like Sanford and something with my, with my legs all sore and everything.

My head right now. Are you kidding me? Now, now people who don't know Charlie, he was, he's also Olympian. He was in the, the 72 Olympics. And I learned that in Mary Ormsby's book here, but we'll get back to Charlie Francis later. Uh, well, it won't be too long here, but of course, so maybe a little bit about, if you don't mind nine, eight, three. So, uh, before we had nine, seven, nine, uh, we had nine, eight, three. And that was in Rome.

Uh, was that 87? It is seven. Yeah. Okay. So, um, when you ran nine, eight, three, and you, you know, you beat Carl Lewis and the world championship in in Rome and then you set the world record of 983, everything's lining up for the soul, for the matchup. This is the period in your career when you're routinely beating Carl Lewis, right?

Yeah, well, to me it's always nice beating Americans. They think they are the best in the world and the best there is and nobody else can beat them. And I put them wrong because I know that when I was growing up in running track and field in the early eighties, there are some great American sprinters and, you know, and I just be patient and just wait for my turn to come. And when it comes, it was different. So it's always always it's a challenge

because the Americans, they have about four or five thousand athletes can run internationally. Good all the time. So you always have a new guy coming up every year. Yeah. So I said, you know, bring them on in my time. I said, bring them on if no one comes up and you get killed. Moam down. Shout out to Ridley funeral home. Okay. So we're going to get back to soul here. But I got a question because again, back to Mark Zolinski on Friday, he lifts man. This guy like you can clearly see Ben, I don't lift. Like I know you're being very kind. You could have opened it with Mike. Hello. Nice to meet you. You clearly don't lift. But Zolinski lifts and he was talking about what an inspiration you were. He would see

you at York and he would talk about your upper body and how inspiring that was for him when he started his regiment and he started bodybuilding. And I'm curious, because we've seen many a great sprinter, but we've never seen a sprinter with a strong and upper body as you've been. I can't think of one. Like, how did that help you having such a bulky upper body and being so strong? Well, it will help you, the stronger you move your arms and faster you move your arms, the faster it's gonna run.

You know, I use a bench over 395, 400 pounds, you know, so you have to have a string of a body. So when it gets a set and all you for about two and a half seconds That's power in your shoulders can all you in the position So you can really snap that left hand how quickly as possible and then get out the blocks and just run like hell And getting out of the blocks was your specialty I mean, this was always the the great bench You're always like ahead before the other guys all have to play catch up, right? You had there's a bit so where does all had to play catch up, right? You had this. So where does that come from?

Is that just innate? Like you just had a reaction time that was just where my body, my limbs made up. I got fat, white, twitch muscles can move like lightning flash. But how often do you think in your career did you get accused of a false start when it was untrue? It was just simply your reaction time was that. A lot of times, yeah. I can imagine. Yeah. They have the

Ben Johnson rule. It's like a Johnson rule. Yeah. They set but the timer back to lower than what it was. And back then, you had to disqualify you had two false starts before being disqualified. Right? Because today is one right? Like today you did the one false start you're on. Yeah. Yeah. It happened in Seoul too eh Ben yes that's a good story you should tell them about okay tell me that story uh this is in a heat in the semi-final in the semi-final semi the semi-final was faster than the final and that's why I get a

false start because I get off the block so fast and so hard so quickly I beat the sensor I remember this and uh in hindsight now, thankfully you got the two, like you got that second one. So how does that change in the semi when you get called for the false start? Firstly, the question I have for you, Ben, is did you false start? No, it was perfect start.

I just have to cut back the power of the second start to make sure I didn't false start. So it's quite fun too. It's like in tennis, right? You know, you gotta the power of the second start to make sure I didn't fall star So it's like in tennis, right? You get the you know, you got to take something off the second serve so you don't double fall Yes, of course now What's that about? like how do they how do they call the false start on you in the semi when you didn't fall start like if you if you move 1010 of a second

They said no human being can't react that fast. It's impossible. I proved them wrong. I did it. But the human starter had had was the one who shot the pistol, right? That's right. And said he'd move like a human. I like, but it was backed up though with an electronic sensor in the pads, which showed later on, or we assumed it did because Richard Pound, who was an IOC member, went down and raised a bit of a stink in the athletics tent about Ben's false start. He didn't think it was a false start and Richard Pound demanded to see the electronic backup

for them to prove that he'd false started. And the officials sort of hammed and hawed and said, yes, well, we'll go get that. And they came back and said, well well didn't really show it to him I said, but you know sometimes mistakes happen and and Richard Pound said make sure it doesn't happen again So Richard Pound what was Mary tell us the role of Richard Pound, you know Dick Pound Richard Pound yet at these Olympics in 80 is he like the the advocate for the Canadian athlete? Like what is his role there? Richard Pound was an IOC vice president and his role at the time, and Richard Pound is from Montreal and he's a former Olympic swimmer himself. But his role at the time for the IOC was a very important one because he was the tough-nosed negotiator who was in charge of getting money,

revenue from marketing, television, executives, all that stuff. So a lot of the revenue back in those days came into the IOC through the work of Richard Pound, very important guy, young guy, smart guy, and he was rising up the ranks. So when he was in the stands, he was just watching as a spectator and decided to come down and throw his weight around. So here's where you can see IOC members can have

some intimidation power because his point was this better not happen in the final because if Ben has to take off even the tiniest bit, if he's called for a false start, I'm going to tell the world and don't do it to him in the final. Make sure he gets a clean start. So, you know, he ran some interference for Ben without Ben knowing. When did you learn about this, Ben? Just now. That's the same point, Mary, the same point. I had a long chat with, you know, you were stuck on our, on the, you know, not your fault on the Gardner Express

way. I feel sorry for anyone who has to visit here taking the. I apologize again. I'm sorry. I blame the city planners. What's going on here? But Ben and I had a long time to chat and then it's important to point out

that this book that Mary's written is available now and people should read called World's Fastest Man, The Incredible Life of Ben Johnson. Ben, you have not read this book. I read the first chapter, but the first chapter. Yeah, but I live the life, but I will definitely read it. Yes. So, okay. Because you read the first chapter, what there's like 20 chapters in this thing here. So it is- He's savoring every word. So you might learn things in this conversation. Like literally, you might learn things about your life.

So that's why I thought to read it, yeah. So Richard Brown did have your back. I just come sit at the table, because for those who don't know, I don't know who, is anyone listening who doesn't know this, the story in Soul is about to turn a little sour, okay? So it's a

Trigger warning here. It's not we didn't we don't he's not been you're not pulling out the gold medal to show me So this is all coming out here very very shortly here. How Where do I go from here? Mary you can help me here. But yeah How do you find out Ben that you tested positive for a performance enhancing drug in Seoul, Korea. Like how did you find out? Well, um, it was early Sunday morning, about 7.30, I was in my room,

knock on, knock came in the door and and opened the door and each other looked stunned like somebody had died or something, you know, and I said, what's wrong? He goes, he test positive. I said, no way. He say, yes. Then I, then me and him go over to my mom's room and I said, mom, I test positive.

And my mom put his hand over his mouth and start crying and I sit down on the couch and I put my hands in my face and hold my head down and say that they finally got me and and I mentioned this several times over the years but people didn't understand what I'm trying to say but what I'm saying is my mom said this even before it happened but I never really put the audio in the media but for the first time in 36 years a lot of people have to understand this my mom is a born-again Christian and she get a vision from the Lord saying that all that that they took from me it gonna come back to me but you

have to go through the process, go with God. I'm not gonna be alive to see that. But again, my mom say, son, the only way they can beat you in this doping room. That's the only way, no other way. And when she told me that, I started getting scared because I knew exactly what that mean. Which means, yes, if I do get caught, I can, I'll be ready for that. But my fear was my life is in danger because people can poison me

and people can do a lot of kinds of things to get me out or get me by. So that was my main concern running all these years on the top of the world. Not to eat from people and not to eat where I'm not supposed to eat or new friends that I came in. And just one time that last second, I put my guards down for that moment and that was it. Okay. Can you be more specific like where where how did you put your arms down for a moment? Well I mean I opened myself up to people to come close to me so to speak and that moment that was it. Who are these people?

Well the person that the mystery band was in the open movement was Andre Jackson one of Carl Lewis friend. Okay the mystery man was in the open movement was Andre Jackson, one of Carl Lewis friend. Okay, the mystery man. Now there's a great detail about this in your book, Mary, and I read with great interest. So after you win gold medal 979, is it like immediately after the race that you're put in like, tell me how this goes down. You go into a room and they do a test?

Like, like when, when does that, when did that, was it drug test after the gold? Like after the gold medal, um, before the gold medal ceremony, they put me into this room for about two and a half hours. I was started drinking about eight to nine beers and I started getting buzzed, started getting drunk. So, um, so Valamara was working on my Achilles cause my Achilles was all fared up really bad. And this guy was sitting down on the ground next to a small little fridge. My canopy was open. So the guy you're talking about, that's Andre Jackson.

Yes. Okay, so Andre Jackson is in the room with you when you're doing your testing there. But is he allowed in the room? He's not allowed in the room. I look on his credential and he say American. And I said that you allowed in the room? It's not allowed in the room. I look at his credential and he says American and I said that you're in the wrong room. You know, your teammate is on the other side. You shouldn't be here. Oh,

I came here just to congratulate you on your run. Okay. There's no one there? Like there's no Canadian representative? Like, you know, how you watch a crime show or whatever and they're like I'd like to I'd like to speak to a lawyer and then Daniel Diana Clement was there but she goes and come into the room in and out because she have to do other things outside for the other athletes and so so Andre Jackson you alluded to this a moment ago, but just the And this is in the book but Mary you can speak to this too, but Andre Jackson is part of the Carl Lewis camp. Like, is he he's part of that that the Carl Lewis? He's a friend of the of Carl Lewis and he's part of that entourage and he's

staying in Seoul at that time in the same home. Excuse me, that the Carl Lewis entourage is staying and they rented a home or a big condo or something In Seoul away from the the village so they weren't they were known to each other and Andre did have a credential on but it was I don't know how he got it Joe Douglas Carl's manager said Laid many years later on that they were able to put him in there got him in there to make sure Ben wasn't doing anything Fun is where I'm going like what's he doing there?

Well according to Joe Douglas and he said this in that documentary nine seven nine They kind of got him in there Keep an eye on Ben to make sure he wasn't doing anything funny to mask a drug test or anything else and to use his camera Which he had with him too. But when I spoke to Andre Excuse me. He said the credential was To a company Joe Deloach who's another American but that was for a 200 meter race that was four days in the future. Embed what do you think Andre Jackson did in that room like I guess I'm trying

to find out specifically what do you believe he did influence this drug test? After I was in so great pain working on my killers, Valamara was focused on my killers and I was my head was bowed down in pain. And nine beers in. Yeah. Don't bury the lead here. He was a pretty happy guy. And then and then that's where I started to slip these pills in my drinks and I start to you know I start to drink it another, another, another. And then after two and a half hours after I speak to the prime minister and I came back down and, and I went to the, I went to present my urine after two and a half hours later. You believe you believe he put the pills in your yes. Yes, of course. Of course.

Okay. So you didn't, you didn't see him do it, but he, okay. So now this is where the book does a good job breaking it down because this is important and we all know, I want to hear from you Ben though, but you, you had been on Charlie Francis had you on a program for several years, right? Where you were taking illegal performance enhancing drugs. Yeah. Okay. So, so when you were caught, but here, and I'm going to hope I pronounce this right. Okay.

So you were caught with stanzazole. Stanzazole. How am I doing there? That's a tough one. I can't even say brewery. Stanzazole, but it's just an anabolic steroid. That was the one they identified in his urine. And let me ask you, Ben, you didn't take that, right?

You were taking, you were taking illegal. So this is where the story gets murky for me because you're guilty of taking illegal, like banned substances, we'll call it banned substances, but not the one they caught you taking. So you believe that Andre Jackson spiked your drinks with this particular. So even though you're guilty, you were set up to be caught. So to speak, yes. Yeah. And the world, the public and the world has to know this. For the first time again, I get caught not because I was taking drugs. I get caught because I switch auditors to the adorer. That's the reason why. That's the reason why

everything went sour for Ben Johnson. I should have stick to auditors. So Ben thinks there's more skullduggery involved. And I'll just jump in a little bit here. Of course. And I don't want to get ahead of your questions, Mike, but. No, no, you're the cohost of this program. What we find out much later on is that unbeknownst to

the members of Charlie Francis sprint group, the doctor, Jamie Astifan, was giving them from time to time Stenazolol without their knowledge. So they didn't know they were using it. And it would have been a complete shock to Charlie and Ben and everybody else because they had no idea and this comes out later at the Dub and Inquiry. So Jamie Astafan sounds like he's doing you dirty here, possibly. Yeah. Allegedly.

Very dirty, yeah. So do you trust, so Charlie Francis is your coach and you trust him? Yeah, just Charlie, yeah. Of course, but you're both reliant on this Dr. Jamie Astifan and he may have been giving you substances that you didn't know you were taking. Because Jamie comes in to make sure that we doesn't overdo it.

Like down the road we have health problems or anything like that. We just wanna make sure that that everything's mattered properly and whatever you, but it doesn't need, you just. Peed out, you know? So, so we, uh, and a plus, and again, we train very hard, you know, we, we train from since I came to, came to Canada in 1976 and started running track and field and in 77, 12 years of training, six days a week, 12 hours a day, people came to Canada in 1976 and started running track and field in 1977.

12 years of training, six days a week, 12 hours a day. People doesn't see the hard training that, that you do. All they see is the end result on TV, but the pain and suffering and fatigue and hurt and disappointment, I just keep going because all I'm doing is for my mother and all the suffering and painful that I endured through my 12 years to be the best I can be. Everything was for my mom. So pain becomes my best friend. Okay, so got so many places I want to go here, but places I want to go here, but you're caught doping. You believe you were set up. I know that this skullduggery that that's a term I'm going to start using skullduggery. I quite like it here. Now I do have to just follow up a little bit on this because because that

so you do think maybe that possibly and I'm just not trying to speak for you Ben, you speak for yourself, but maybe Andre Jackson is spiking this drink to ensure you're caught because you're the only person in that hundred meter final in Seoul who was caught doping, right? Correct, yes. So you believe possibly that Andre Jackson was spiking this drink to ensure you were caught because you're guilty, but you know how to game the system. This is kind of a detail. So everyone, Ben, do you think everyone in that a hundred meter final in Seoul was doping? Not because somebody profile doesn't change and get big.

Doesn't mean that they clean. There's certain sprinters in the, in the final look skinny, but you can tell by the muscles you know very there's much more water around the muscles or whatever it get nice and lean but and there's other sprinters you can see the muscles but I've been lifting weights from since since 1980 I started lifting lots of weights even though in my early beginning I lift a lot of weights but as as time goes by I started to lift more weights even though in my early beginning I lift a lot of weights but as time goes by I started to lift more weights because that was my secret because I was very weak but I needed strong I needed to get stronger to run faster to get more endurance

and that's where the weight training comes in and lots of plyometric jumps and then Charlie as brilliant as he is, knows his body very well, the right training program for Ben Johnson, tailor-made, that make the difference. And part of this program is knowing how to pass these drug tests, because you know you're gonna get tested in Seoul when you run your 979, and essentially as I read in the book, Mary, like you know when to stop taking the drugs so that you don't trigger any alarms in Seoul, right? Right. You know how. That's well, that's called the clearance time. And and I will just say the Canadians weren't alone in following this sort of training regime where they were maybe

using substances during training and also having clearance times going into major races, including the Olympic games. I find it almost as a philosophical question, a very interesting thought provoking, go ahead man. You have to understand this, that the system made the rules and they break the rules. And if you break the rules, you can get punished. But only the Milan can break the rules.

They make it, but they don't follow their own rules. And that's a joke. The philosophical question here is that, Ken, because you don't follow their own rules, and that's a joke. The philosophical question here is that, because you don't deny that you were taking the banned substances for several years, leading up to the Olympics in Seoul, Korea. So there's no denial there, but at the same time, it sounds like, and as I read this book from Mary Ormsby,

it sounds like you were done dirty in Seoul. So it's like, can you be done dirty when you are guilty of taking the banned substances? Like this is like a very interesting conversation. Can you be cheated by the system? Because there's no denying that yes, you're guilty of taking a breaking substances, breaking the rules, basically. And even but but you're the only person and is this what I read in your book, that you're the only one at the whole Olympics that was the only athletic,

only track athlete at the entire Seoul Olympics who was caught and disqualified. Yes, the only track and field athletes at the Seoul Olympics to fail a drug test was Ben Johnson. And there's about six or seven people who failed drug tests in Seoul. And weren't announced. But overall there was probably about ten or so. There were a couple of weightlifters.

Oh, the weightlifters and those guys. Those sorts of guys. But the ones you would think. But it sort of defies... You can't have it both ways as a testing body. You've got the state of the art equipment, the best software to detect steroids and other things. It's a very long list of performance enhancing drugs, the best scientists around and also the element of surprise because going into Seoul, a lot of the anti-doping scientists felt that track and field athletes and others didn't know how well they could detect stenosylole, right? So if all this is happening and you've got the

element of surprise and you've got the best guys ever in state-of-the-art lab, you only get one person in track and field. That's what that that's one of those things that just sort of doesn't compute, right? To me just as a fact. What is the fact? It's like how come nobody else? Well, you know, I'm not gonna take the blame for everybody else wrongdoing and I'm only one so I have the right to defend myself and I will and I'm going to and until this matter is closed and that's it. So Ben you're suggesting that you were set up to fail the drug test in Seoul. Correct.

And the comment, the skullduggery there, just because I need to follow up on that one just for a moment here. Okay. You believe it was because you had slighted Adidas by changing from Adidas to Dior Dior Dior. Yeah, you have to understand how these shoes company works. There is no way people that run where all these different type of shoes could test positive because they give a lot of

money to the world that is our IWF at that time sponsorship money so they want to make sure that they're protected. So when the consumers or the public going by Puma or Nike or Adidas, that's where they make the money because everybody wants to wear Adidas because guys are going to go to Olympic games in Olympic games, go medal in these gears. So that's what it's all about.

So they could not allow have a small shoes company from Italy becomes the one shoes company work can happen. Okay. And this is pure speculation, right? Like you, you don't actually, you just, that's, that's a suspicion you have. It's not, no, it's not a suspicion. This is facts. It's Ben Ben's theory.

Ben's theory, of course. Now, is it, isn't it even more likely? a question I wanted to ask is if Ben you are you're Canadian? If you're okay. Yeah, I go back. Okay. Since you don't believe me. Not that I don't believe you. It's just do you do you research go back to the 1992 Olympic Games in Tokyo when all

some of those Americans athletes get get hurt all of a sudden. All of a sudden everybody's getting hurt. The Barcelona you mean or 1991 World Championships? Everybody was getting hurt in that race because they know that somebody tested gonna test positive because the system is accurate and then they come back in 1996 and set a record, make a buck from all the years of disappointment, they make it back up in 1996, when the truck service gets better and faster.

And just to be clear Ben, I actually am not sitting here thinking that I don't believe you, not at all actually. I do believe you were a scapegoat in Seoul and I believe you were not given proper due diligence and justice here where I can't go with you because there's no evidence at all is like the speculation that it had anything to do with a shoe contract like that to me is like that's a band theory but that's not a that's not a fact or or Mary would have had the first I think the first chapter would have been full of the the facts but it's almost, I'm going to just

bring it back to the fact that you're running for Canada, you're Canadian, and Carl Lewis, of course, is American. And my big question for you is, if you were running for the United States of America, would you have been caught doping in Seoul? Never happened. Never will. Not in a lifetime. So why is that?

Like, I feel like exploring that- Because America protect the athletes. America put money into the track and field budget like in America, like in TAC. They put in like five or six hundred million dollars into the budget to run the sports. You know, they give a lot of money to the World Athletics or the IWF or the IRC to a sponsorship money. So not at the athletes really can test positive. In Mary I read in your book that Carl Lewis failed three tests during the American Olympics

trials. Well, failed is now a bit of a loaded word because he tested positive for stimulants at the US Olympic trials. And that was kept quiet because US Olympic officials, you know, upon talking to him, decided that it was inadvertent doping and he didn't mean to do it. And he got it through some sort of, you know, on a protein pack or whatever he was taking. Otherwise he could have been suspended for about three months and that would have kept him out of the Olympic Games and people didn't know about that until

the whistleblower released a lot of documents about athletes including Carlos but other athletes as well in 2003. In your career before Seoul Ben, approximately like how many times did you take a drug test throughout your athletics career before Seoul, Ben, approximately, like how many times did you take a drug test throughout your athletics career before Seoul Korea Olympics? Too much. And you passed every single one of them? Yeah. And that's primarily because you're on the program, you're taking the system here, but

it's well-known how to, what is avoidance? What is the term? Clearance. Clearance. That's the word I'm looking for. You understand when you how far before the event you need to stop taking the steroids in order to test negative. People you know people in general doesn't understand. Steroids does make you run fast.

It does help to make the recovery so you can train harder. I mean if you don't have the genetics and the and the a good coach and right from a mind and a I can't start taking steroids and run 97 so so people don't understand that if you're in great shape and and And excellent shape and yeah, you can get some some good results. It's not a race day drug That's what you're also asking, you know It's not like if you want to you know use cocaine or something to get out of the blocks faster That's you wouldn't do that on you wouldn't use this stuff anywhere near race day Dale rode in when he heard you were coming on Ben and again, I'm glad you're here man

I you didn't know this would be tougher than the Dublin inquiry, but this is you know At least you get lasagna has been back in did something give you lasagna. Yeah, it's nice Yeah, but it's Dublin didn't give you the? No, he didn't give me nothing. Okay, I just want to point that out because I actually have more gifts for you later. Yeah, I want to point that out. You're getting lasagna at least. Okay, but Dale wrote in, this is what Dale wrote.

He won the race legitimately as everyone was juiced. How Carl Lewis escaped is beyond me. Better science, I guess. This is Dale. But Mary, I'm gonna ask you now, because, you know, we've heard from Ben and some theories he has. Do you believe, Mary, that Ben was done dirty in Seoul? I don't know. I couldn't prove that at all. There were just a couple of things that stuck in my mind about obviously him being the only one. Uh, we've already talked about that. The other thing that's interesting to me is that

we learned at the time and not much was made of it really, but the metabolite reading in Ben's urine and metabolites are the chemical traces of the anabolic steroid after it breaks down in your system. So it's like the fingerprint. Apparently it was a relatively huge amount in his urine sample.

And if he'd been following the clearance time, which he had been, and I will say Jamie Astifan, the doctor, was good about that with these guys. He kept an eye on them. It should have been a very tiny amount. So I've always wondered, other people have wondered too, about why was there so much in his urine that I don't have an answer to, I'm sorry. There's a lot of curious things going on here. There are curious things.

So I stop short of a lot of places that Ben will go to. I just don't go there. But I'm throwing it out there for people to have a look. And you make up your own decision. I go there because I'm not afraid. OK, so I'm a bit of a chicken. No, I think it's more like Mary's got a journalistic standards that you need to uphold where Ben, you could be more like impulsive and passionate about your beliefs.

And have an opinion. Yeah, you can have an opinion. You're not, you know, you're not a long time Toronto Star journalist. He's not, he's not. I have learned Ben's not afraid of a lot of things. He's a pretty bold guy. No, and I, that's what makes for an interesting conversation too, because Ben, you could come on and tout some PR

statements or whatever and toast some wine, but I really feel like you're here to tell it like you believe it to be, which I appreciate. Thank you. I appreciate that. Now, okay, so the question came in from Sonic More Music is actually was a Toronto Sun headline. Mary, you were at the Sun before the star.

When did you start 1985? I was at the Sun from 81 to 85. OK, so the headline was and Sonic More Music is repeating this and I'm going to frame it differently by just saying, OK, so you admit you were on a program with your Charlie Francis, you're on this program taking band substances and avoiding testing positive until sold, but we've discussed that this this Andre Jackson, which I might revisit it in a moment, but Sonic More Music says, why Ben? Why? Like, and my question for you, Ben, on the, on that note is like, like, why did you agree to be on a program taking substances that are banned from the sport?

Well, I would just believe that it's a level playing field to me that everybody else I know, my competitor was using performance-oriented drugs. I see it back in the early 80s with East Germans and and other American runners and so that then and and and because I test positive because I do it better than them or in faster than them so didn't like that so they kept me out but you know you have to understand this that Charlie's like a father to me yes and I will defend in Charlie until the day I died So Charlie was just leveling the field. Charlie didn't do anything wrong Because because if everybody in that hundred meter finals Oh, we don't have any evidence of this, but if they are all doping then if you're not doping you're not there

Yeah, you know, you know, you know, we have good and bad people everywhere, you know I remember when I was about seven years old, before my mom came to Canada, my mom just gave me a money with some measurement on a piece of paper and go and say, go and see this lady and buy some material. So we run up the streets and the people in the store said, yeah, this young man has come here to see you.

And I've got the material and we run back. And then years later, my mom sit down and said to me, remember that lady that I gave you the money to see all the time to buy material? I said, yeah, that white lady. She said, yeah. She said that she's her family. And I said, no. And that's all, almost shed tears

because I didn't get to know her as a young boy, growing up in Jamaica. And mostly black folks in Jamaica, we have a trace of white because of the slavery and stuff like that. But with what I'm saying is, not because what happened to us in slavery not mean that everybody else is white is bad.

And she was a good person because she was a family to me and I didn't have a chance to meet her. But what I'm saying is Charlie didn't do anything wrong. Charlie, I have family as white as Charlie, as white as you in my family. I don't say that they're bad people because I do something bad and people against me. But this is what needs to be addressed

and this is what people has to be knowing. That I, you know, there's three person I miss so much is my mother, my father, and Charlie. Charlie was meant a lot to me. Charlie was like a father figure for me here in Toronto as a young boy. And Charlie will give you anything on his back. He will give you the last money,

the last shirt on his back, he will give it to you. I remember one time I was training at Lawrence Park and it was so cold, it was like minus 15. And back then Charlie had this Huston Martin and we were training on the side, me and my brother and some of the sprinters. And it was so cold that I started crying and I said, I said, Charlie, I can't, I can't. He goes, go to my car, go in my car and warm up for a while. Don't stay too long. Go in the car. So I turn the car on. I started one up.

I didn't want to cut back outside. He came over and go, okay, let's go. So I have to get the car. So this, this type of person is, you know, you have to get the job done. You know, sounds like a father figure, right? Like it sounds like, uh, and I know a very poignant part of the book is where we, we, we hear, uh, when, when, when Charlie Francis passes away, how that affected you, Ben, and I'm sorry for your loss.

Yeah, I, I, I, it's like part of me died and I, it meant a lot to me and he, he guide me, you know, to, to, uh, my great career. And I can say that, uh, uh, as a young boy growing up and and did the thing I did and become the best under me of all time I'm very proud of myself and that's it so no regrets no regrets like if you could do it again and I'm gonna read a question from Craig M because it ties into this question I have about no regrets which is he writes Mike I'd love you to ask Ben how he thinks his life would have been different if everything has stayed the same except was above board what would his legacy have been and does he ever think about that still one of the greatest accomplishments

in Canadian sports history well it's going to be different because that's the way my life was written out. That's my life, my lifeline was. Yes, I did what I have to do to win and I did I did because that was the right thing to do at the time. I did all over again for mommy, for my mother. That's my destiny. That's my destiny. That's it. I can't change it. Mary, thinking about, you know, reading your book, and I've been thinking a lot about what happened with Ben and Sol and whether he was treated unfairly. Did he get did he get proper justice? I'm like, like now we fix this like how how can we repair this damage done to Ben and For the people who say why would we bother Ben admits he was on a you know a steroid program for years like he was You know guilty, but at the same time

A lot of fishy stinky activity going on swirling around this that doesn't seem fair that that that he was caught there What do you say like like how do we how do we fix this? Well even the words we use sometimes guilty. I mean the athletes who test positive do not commit crimes. Right. Right. So Ben has committed no crime. Right. The the linchpin of this book is quite separate from the notion that athletes cheat or have broken the rules, including Ben. What we're looking at is before that, at the critical moment at Ben's hearing, was he denied or deprived of due process when the Canadians were trying to make an appeal to hold onto his medal, and it was pivotal on this.

And the research that we've done for this book and at the start grew from this. It's all explained in the book, but there were things that were, it was a deficient, there were deficiencies on both sides with the Canadian team trying to defend him. They weren't looking at certain evidence. They didn't challenge other evidence that was dropped on them. They didn't challenge, uh, the lack of disclosure of this evidence that was, they were ambushed and that's my word by the IOC medical commission. And no one challenged the deep conflicts of interest for the IOC medical

commission because they formed not only the testing team in Seoul, cause they're all smart and they know how to do all this stuff, right, but they were also prosecutors sitting in judgment and they were also the ones who recommended whether he would be disqualified from Seoul or not. So they are also judge and jury. No way, you know, is that group of people going to say, yeah the stuff we did in the lab was all wrong, you got us. You know, is that group of people going to say, yeah, the stuff we did in the lab was all wrong. You got us. You know, so all these things and there's more to it than that. But that's the basis of the book.

Can a cheater be cheated by the system? This is the great question. But the other part of that is protecting an athlete's right to due process is not the same thing as endorsing that athlete's behavior. Two separate discussions, and you've dwelled a lot on the, you know, the performance enhancing drugs Ben and others were taking. This other thing about due process is really critically important. And then hopefully if there's a way for restorative justice

or review or re-examination, particularly in what we're learning today, 36 years later, this stuff is still happening. There's mercy for some and no mercy for others. This is why you're the writer, Mary, that was very well put. And again, honestly, like I'm reading this book and I was like, I can't believe that and this is not fair there. And it really does make you revisit the whole thing. It's not as simple as saying, oh, you know, Ben got

caught cheating. They took away his gold medal. They took away his world record. Fascinating. Okay. Now, interesting question came in. So again, we're skipping a little time here, but I want to get to this question. I'm afraid I'll run out of time, but gear choice and there's a lot of technical stuff here. So I'm going to burn through this, Ben. Okay. Uh, not nine seven nine. Okay. But I'll do my best here. He goes, I guess if I was going to boil down the Ben Johnson stuff to ask Mary, it would be his second suspension was really broken given that he didn't test

positive for an illegal prohibited substance, but rather for a TE ratio of one to 10.3, an out of bounds ratio of two naturally occurring substances. One to one is supposedly normal for anything under six to one was deemed not suspect no follow-up six to nine point nine i know this is all in the weeds here but i'm going to get through this was deemed suspect and greater than 10 to one was suspension worthy ben was barely over but the thing is past use uh could have accounted for volatile results and did over sex and alcohol and even

eating beef. It's all bad science. No one had any idea what the fuck testosterone did. Dr. Manfred Dawn was the brains of the IOC drug testing ops. None of it was subject to peer review or such. If his soul test was dubious, was his second one even worse? There's the question. I don't even know what I said before that, Mary, but you- Gar Joyce is incredible and he's written about this second test. So if I can just sort of make it into a small mountain. Ben had a race in Hamilton first. Hamilton. Hamilton passes that test. A couple of days later, has a test in Montreal, runs a race in Montreal and has a test. And this is the one that's wonky,

he finds out later on. Excuse me. And then there's a test, a random test, just a couple of days later in Toronto, and he passes that one too. So this test in the middle of three, in a very short period of time, his testosterone ratio was too high.

Let's just say that and suspicious and they jump on this. And what flows from that is that Ben decides to retire because everybody jumps all over him again and the word, you know, it's all leaked out and he can't face it. And Ben can maybe talk about this later on. He just is going to cost him hundreds of thousands of dollars to try to fight this. He goes away six years later, jumping ahead. He ends up in front of a, an arbitrator who looks at this case and part of the arbitration hearing is,

you know, that reading is going to stand, but what they found in that test because Ben was provisionally reinstated because he'd been banned for life based on a couple of things, including, um, athletics Canada mistakenly told Ben he had to launch an appeal when Ben was actually able to have a hearing first. You have your hearing and if you don't like that result, then you can appeal. So he got it backwards and athletics Canada, you know, mistakenly gave him the wrong, um wrong information and he retired because of it.

Also there were some questions about the lab work. I'll just put it that way, just the easiest way to say it's not that it was wrong but there were questions about how some of the calculations were done and had he had a hearing as was his right it could have been addressed in a hearing. That's kind of it. But again, you're looking at process procedure and you know, but that all goes away because you know, people have dismissed Ben at this point, you know, open and shut case he's and he's getting older too. But at that point, I'm not sure he really wanted to run. He can answer this. But I think he wanted to get into coaching,

but a lifetime ban meant not a chance. You can't even coach in Canada anyway. Ben, let's hear from you. Gare Joyce thinks that was even dirtier than this. At the time, at the time when I test the clinic, I test positive. I have my lawyer and I went to Tennessee to see Dr. David Black is one of the best toxicologists in North America. And we look into it and I gave him the form and on the reading and said, this thing is impossible, it can't happen.

Just can't happen. And they know that they did a mistake. But anyway, the IROC did have a hearing in, in, in, in Paris at the time. Um, and my lawyer and Dr. Black was going to go on, on my behalf and they get a letter saying that we don't want you guys here. Uh, we, uh, we have a makeup or a mind about Ben Johnson. We had the judge in Julian and and that's it. That was in 93. 1993. Yeah. So that that didn't help your your case much. Case at all. No. Fascinating conversation again. Fascinating book and Ben loving

this so much, but I'm not quite done with you yet. So as long as it wasn't listen as long as I was in track and field, my name wasn't get tarnished because they didn't want me in the track and field. Period. They want me out. And why do they want you out? Is it simply because you've been labeled a cheater? No, because they know that over the years what they did, have me critical of myself

and all the wrongdoing that they did over the years and hush things up and get money, prize money or things like that. It's just not fair. No, not fair. And do you mind if I just go back and talk just a little bit more about Andre Jackson, just a bit more, just because Ben, I understand from the book that you are still friend, are you still friendly with André Jackson? This is again, this is the mystery man in Seoul who was part of, kind of part of, close

to Carl Lewis, he was American, and was in the room when you were drinking the beers and doing your drug test, and you believe he spiked your beer, and that's why you tested positive in Seoul. But are you still friendly with this gentleman? Well, we we speak about maybe a few months ago. Just keep in touch. So okay. Interesting though. Interesting. Uh this shows what a nice guy you are. You're still friends of the guy

you might have ruined your career uh in sprinting. Well, you know, I'm a I'm a man of god, you know, so I said to myself, he's got the blood of Jesus Christ. He's got the blood of Jesus Christ. He's got ruined your career in sprinting? Well, you know, I'm a man of God, you know. So I said to myself, it's got the blood of Jesus Christ on his hands. My my my spirit and my soul is clean. I know what happened in Seoul.

I know what I did. I know what they did. And that's final. I know that people out there is capable of saying blah, blah, blah. But you know what? You wasn't there. I was there. out there is Kettlebell or saying blah blah blah, but you know what? He wasn't there. I was there. So.

But to be friendly with the guy, like, like, is wild. Are you, is it, is the intention here that one day Andre is going to be like, Ben, I got a confession to make. Well if you want to have a spirit, um, your all ears to be, to be free, I think's right for him to tell the truth once or for all. But I don't think he probably will because he's going to look like one of the bad guys nobody's not going to have to talk to or be a friend with. Or can he go out? Not only what they did, it's also the attempted murder.

So you know, things like that. Because I wouldn't take these kind of drugs to arm myself or to kill myself it's impossible I wouldn't do that I love life you know I can see it in your eyes by the way like you seem like a like you seem comfortable with this in your you seem comfortable in this phase of your life yeah because I know what the truth is I know what the truth is. I know what the truth is. And the truth, the way I feel right now and everything else, I feel good about everything. But you say you know what the truth is,

but that's where I get stuck on this, Mary, because okay, so you know what the truth is, but the truth is that, yeah, you were cheating, but not the way they said you were cheating. Am I saying that? If you have a four year old and you're in your house and she started crying and you run to the room and say, and you say, you say, daddy, somebody was in the room with me. Right. You said to the farewell, there's

nobody here. There's a ghost in the room. But you don't know that. She can know. Because kids at that age can sense these different evil or different spirits. We can't. And if you say no, no, you're taking something wrong with a girl. In my saying this, I know what I did wrong, yes. But like I said, it was a playing field because I do it better than these people are and are going to go medal Making a lot of money and didn't want that right and they shoved me out to show example that the fastest man in the world Get called judging steroids bull but you know what? Life goes on. I'm still here and all those people that come against me They all died.

Okay. Because of my faith and what I believe in and what it is. That's great, okay, that is great. But this, so Andre Jackson, you're still friendly with the guy, he's the mystery man in the room who you believe spiked your drink so that you would test positive and I asked this earlier But I'm just gonna pointedly ask it then. Do you believe every other? Man in that 100 meter final and soul was taking banned substances. Yes. Okay, including Carl Lewis. Yes

Okay now journalists Mary Ormsby Do you believe that's a that that's a, like, at least this was always, you never, never proven because only Ben Johnson was caught. How, how can you face growing after certain ages? I saw the guy rear size nine shoes to size 12 in one year. It's like Barry Bonds, right? I always think of Barry Bonds, right? Hell of a player, but so skinny guy.

Who wears braces like a monkey, like a monkey, like a jawbone is going out of his face. right? Hell of a player but so drinks and then this would be sort of the absolution that you're you're seeking here and then there will be no like Ben's theory This will be the fact this facts Fascinating what a fascinating subject. I almost lose my life in soul man. Well, tell me was there a moment where you thought of that? You know, it's a lucky thing that my body's breaking up very fast Can you elaborate like like so you when you test positive and Can you elaborate? Like, so when you test positive and you realize your whole world is falling around you, is there a moment where you think about doing anything drastic? Like what?

Kicked myself? Yeah. I let the enemy win? No. Okay. No. Just wasn't sure what you were leading to. The enemy can't win.

The enemy can't win. The devil never, never win me. He works 24-7 and the devil can never win me. He works 24-7 and devil can never win me. I wouldn't I wouldn't bet against you. Devil doesn't get my my vote on this one. You're kidding me? Come on. All right. Now I'm going to give you a couple of gifts and then I'm going to ask you about a more recent chapter that many, many, many people were asking me about. And if I haven't said it already Ben I appreciate that you came down here you sat here Mary thanks for connecting us

Where's my breakfast? You know what? You do deserve Marsala No Ben doesn't get the six pack because Ben's clean and sober that's for you and Paul but the pasta you are getting the large meat lasagna before you go and you're gonna love that The box is empty.

Yeah, it's in the freezer. Ben, this is no, no games are being played in this basement. It's all in the up and up. And I already gave you the book on the Tramway Belize baseball history, but I saw you playing with the measuring tape. Ridley Funeral Home, who hoped, they say,

Ridley Funeral Home. Mary, you appreciate that excellent marketing. It's okay, I'm still above nerds. Okay. Oh my listen I will say this so I learned you in your early 60s here, you know grandfather a three and sir I would tell a joke Me and my first granddaughter the first one. She was about six years old and we were in supermarket shopping for something and She goes I was like, oh, I'm a little bit older than you. I'm a little bit older than you. I'm a little bit older than you. I'm a little

bit older than you. I'm a little bit older than you. I'm a little bit older than you. I'm a little bit older than you. I'm a little bit older than you. I'm a little bit older than you. I'm a little bit older than you. I'm a little bit older than you. I'm and say, I told you, I told you I was so famous. And then I start walking away from her and she go, grandpa, wake up.

And I know she go, grandpa, wait, wait for me. I go, shh, don't say too loud. I'm too young to be a grandpa. Well, this is where I was going there. This is what I'm saying here. The Ridley funeral home is, you know, far off future because you actually do look, you look young, you look fit, you look happy. Like, Mary, what's it like being around Ben and seeing how, how just how content he seems? Well, he, he's, well, he still has

something to prove. Obviously, that's why we're in this book. But the other parts of his life, he works hard. He's clean living, and I think he just stopped drinking not because he had a problem, but because he just wanted to have more clean living. And he looks great, he works out. And one time I said to him towards the end, because I certainly let my fitness go, that's why I'm wearing a big puffy vest, during the writing of this book. And I said to Ben at one point, I said, you know, Ben, you know, writing this book made me fat. And Ben, because he can cut right to the chase so often, he says, Mary, writing the book had nothing to do with you getting fat.

Thanks, Ben. So we don't like it is, you know, you know, I find it refreshing, even this conversation, sometimes Ben will say something and I'm like, yeah, he just said that. And it's like I take it. I noticed there's some gaps as I process typically, you know, this is an unedited show. So people will hear it's right. It's there's no lapses for processing on Toronto Mike. But there's been a few times in this conversation where I have to kind of drink it in and like process what he said, because you just say it like it's very refreshing.

That's it. It comes to mind. How's this experience been for you? Pretty good. I was actually nervous because I said, he's just going to tell it like it is. He said, I regret everything here. I don't regret anything in my life except coming on Toronto mic and sitting there for 90 minutes. But I have another gift that I think you're going to dig and you each Mary, you got one too.

It's these wireless speakers right here. So Menaris has sent over that wireless speaker for you, Ben Johnson, and you, Mary Ormsby. Oh, lovely. It sounds great. You bring that home with you, but you must listen to season six of Yes, We Are Open because Al Grego has gone out west. He went to Alberta and he talked to the owner of Mountain Chocolates and he got their inspiring story of like how they persevered in a tourist town during the COVID-19 pandemic, inflation, supply chain issues. He's been finding out how they manage and sharing that story on Yes, We Are Open, a Moniris podcast available now hosted

by Al Grego. I also want to shout out the Advantage Investor. I'm going to ask you in a minute about money, Ben, but if you need advice and financial best practices, you go to the Advantage Investor podcast from Raymond James Canada, hosted by Chris Cooksey. Good stuff there. Recycle My Electronics is where you go, Ben and Mary, if you have any old electronics, old cables, old tech that you have at home in a drawer, maybe a closet. Don't throw it in the garbage. The chemicals end up in our landfill. Go to recyclemyelectronics.ca

and you put in your poster code and you'll find out where you can drop it off to be properly recycled. So look, it was worth the drive. You've got some good swag going home with you, with you, Ben. I got to ask you about something, but because you're so blunt, I feel like I can be blunt. I can just call it like it is here. And I got more questions after, you know, the obvious questions about what happened in Seoul, 979, et cetera. This is the subject that most people wanted to talk about was a certain ad campaign that seemed to be everywhere. And I realized like, why did I see this ad so much? Oh, Frank DeAngelo was buying time on hockey night in Canada. Okay? So this is why I'm seeing this ad so much, okay? Can I play the ad and then we can have a little real talk about it?

Sure, go ahead. All right, so I think there's two here, but let's listen. Today on our show we have Ben Johnson. How are you Ben? Put your cards on the table. Ben, when you run, do you cheetah? Absolutely. I cheetah all the time. Cheetah, Power Surge energy drink, an all natural source of energy without caffeine. My son, there are many roads to finding the secret to the energy of life. If you can snatch the pebble from my hand, did you cheetah, my son?

Absolutely. I cheetah all the time. Cheetah Power Search Caffeine Free Energy Drink. An all natural source of energy. People want to know, and a lot of specific questions like Diamond Dogg, he wants to know, how much did you get paid by Frank D'Angelo for the Cheetah ads? I make enough money to buy a drink. But, but the reason why I did the Cheetah drink is because I was out of the media for

at least almost six years, and I get a phone call from D'Angelo that they want to do this drink called Cheater Drink and I think it over for about a week or so before I say yes and I said you know what they going with this they wanted me to say that I cheated by taking steroids or I run like a cheater so I played both ways and I said yeah why not so the media get on me and say, if I'm making a mockery or a joke over this and that, but you know, I should have done it, but it was a good thing to do at the time. So that was it.

Now, hopefully he gave you a bit more money than the cost to get a drink there, but is this simply like, hey, he's offering me some money to have a little fun at this thing. I'll lean in and cash a check. Although Frank probably gave you unmarked bills in a brown paper bag, but that's a whole different conversation. But you just decided, Hey, he's offering me money.

I'll take the money and do this thing. Yeah, of course. Yeah. Any regrets? Uh, you know, I know we're having fun playing in 2024. So, you know, it's not, you know, it's not so terrible. But any regrets doing that campaign? Well, like I said, when I think it over, yes, I should have done it, but it's gone. So I did it as final water under the bridge. Water under the bridge here. Now, why is it you think you shouldn't have done it?

I'm just curious why when you think it over and you think you should not have done the the cheetah ad, why is that? Well, you know, you can't blow and suck at the same time, but at the same time, you know, I don't I don't want to think that that I people see me that I'm only only texture was to run for us or to train harder or whatever it is. Sprinter was born not made. So I know that God gave me a gift, a body and I use it the best way I can. And then like I said in the interview, I did it better than everybody else and come away the top of the world and some when when when people doesn't get caught on this level you are gentlemen and when you get caught you You're disgraced, you know, so so, you know, I I I don't believe that people could able to judge judge me, and no one could judge me, only Christ. And nobody have to judge me,

that they judge themselves first. And that's the way I look at it all these years coming through. And I know that, you know, over the years, doing things or making a living is not very easy, even though I have a great name in Japan and overseas, that they fly me out time to time to do reality shows over there and they pay very well.

And I've been going there since 1996 for every two or three years. I've been in Japan doing a lot of shows. So the Japanese have a great love for me and I love them. And there are great people to be around and to deal with. You know, you can't be late if you're late. The Japanese have a great love for me and I love them and and They are great people to be around and to deal with you know you can't be late if you're late Is an insult for them, so I can't go to Japan Mary's been banned from Japan That's breaking news and then that explains why you were so punctual today. I Heard you weren't always that way. Yes. I was warned by people and well to be the fascism in the world you have to be on time That's the irony of it the world, you have to be on time.

That's the irony of it all. Okay, so, so Ben, what are you up to these days? In addition to these, obviously going to Japan for these appearances, you doing any training? Are you working with anybody? Well, there's other things in the making overseas with my lawyer, but I can't say much about that. Hey, no, that's the real talk I'm looking for. That's a wink, wink.

OK, that's a hush, hush. But I've done other movies with Paramount, pictures of the rights to do or some movie on me. But they haven't they do. They say yes in twice in the media, but the final Virgin didn't come out yet. So the new metric and Paramount supposed to do a six, six episode of Ben Johnson life, but it's a, it's an old right now for now, but there's another company in the States in, in UK when you do something else, but interesting, you see what happened.

Well, hopefully they, uh, Mary gets some money for licensing this great book. It should be based on this book. And then, uh, Mary can be involved too. Let's get that going. I know people, Ben, so I'm going to make some phone calls after this. Yeah. I have a question though about, so the system, is the system still dirty? What I mean is like, can we trust that Usain Bolt was clean?

How about like Donovan Bailey, for example? Are you guilty until proven innocent in this sport? Like I'm curious what you think of these modern, Donovan modern 1996, I guess was a while ago now, but can we trust the all ran clean? Can I just jump in for a second? Anything. I know you're not asking this of me,

but over the last couple of days, and this is not to do with track and field, but the World Anti-Doping Agency. Yeah, I was reading about that. Okay, they're in a huge scandal right now. And here's why, you know, when Ben's head was held up, I don't want to sound like a crusading journalist, but here's some of the facts. Ben was held up in 88 as the worst doping villain ever, and the war on drugs is over because we got this guy and everyone's going to be scared straight. So fast forward 36 years to this week, Watt is in a big scandal. They, you know, uh,

sort of absolved half the Chinese swim team from doping infractions going into the Tokyo Olympics. Didn't tell anybody. And they can, the Chinese competed and won medals, including gold medals. And this all came to light in the last couple of days with the New York Times expose story. So this is talking about the system breaking down, falling down. Again, benefit of the doubt for some, not for others. People can get away with doping if you're from a powerful country or you've got powerful advocates. So I'm just jumping in to say this because I get so annoyed when I see things happening

now, and this was all supposed to be solved after 1988. So big problems with a supposed better system under the World Anti-Doping Agency which came into play around the year 2000, right, to make doping compliance and enforcement better and evenly applied across the landscape. No, again, you don't even have to ask to say these things, Mary. You just chime in, say, because it's always very interesting to hear you make that point. So, Ben, there are two questions before you now. One is, can we trust that like a new sample ran clean?

Like, can we trust that the system's no longer dirty, as they say? There's that. And then I wonder now when you hear in the news about these great infractions, and like Mary described, is there any Schodun Freud, or any any kind

of like like feeling like look it's still it's still going on I was a scapegoat. Well I can speak to other sprinters but I can tell you that the the the dope and stuff or what is performance and drugs is still going on not because you don't test positive that doesn't mean that you clean you mentioned You mentioned a name, Dan Van Bailey. He's not even around. He came into the scene in 1989. He's running like 11 seconds or even slower. And within five years, this guy wouldn't go metal. So you have to ask the question. But he's never tested positive. Doesn't matter.

Right. Doesn't matter. So are you guilty to proving innocence? Why does this at least train somewhere else? Are the item or they don't want to be seen? You know, yeah, that's a question all these things Okay. No, I was curious. I wasn't sure whether I should even ask but but do you have a relationship with Donovan Bailey? or is there don't like each other easy a he talked he talked against me and

I was there for him to win the gold medal. In 96, he called me and said that these guys playing mind games. I tell him what to do. And then after doing interviews after the gold medal, he took me out of the bus. So we came from the same country. I mean, he's a great sprinter. He's fast, but not fast enough. Donovan Bailey's not in my- Well, 984 is not as fast as 979. Donovan Bailey's not in my class. Well, 984 is not as fast as 979. Donovan Bailey's not in my class of running. So in your prime though, you and your prime versus Donovan Bailey in his prime. No match, no match, no match.

Pretty simple. Interesting. Mary, listen to me. This is this country of ours and our greatest sprinters. Wow, okay. There's now I want to simulate that race. Donovan Bailey in his prime. Nine, nine, eight, four is what he won gold medal with in 1996. And when you got the gold before they sadly took it away from you because you were a cop, the drugs, it was nine, seven, nine. So and again, you put up, you were slowing up at the end there, but that's an interesting discussion to have here. Don, so as we say goodbye, Ben, I'm curious what the future. If you speak to the expert on track and field

and break it down for you, they will tell you who the fastest man in the world is. And it's me. Pay then simple. Still has the swagger. I feel like you could probably compete today. You're in such good shape here. You ever do any running anymore?

Just kidding. What attack or something? No, no. I mean, I do run. I do exercises. I do trying to move the blood around and keep fit and burn out some sugars and share some left thing, you know. You're you know, how old were you when you came to Canada? I was only 14. 14 years old and I hope I pronounced this right. Trelawny Parish? Trelawny Falmouth. Okay.

Any chance that's where you that's where you live out your your final years? Is there any any plans to return to Jamaica? That's where I'm going back pretty soon. Going back to live. Well, that's what I want to close with here. Okay. Now, why? Why? I mean mean I'm just curious why you want to go back to Jamaica and not stay in? Well we don't have very much in Jamaica it's a

beautiful island but what we have we happy with and that's where we live and that's where we go that's where we brought up and that's where we go. That's where we brought up. And that's where. So. Enjoy the beach, enjoy the weather, go for a walk. What do you just relax? What is it that you're waiting for before you move back to to the country when you were born? Like, are you just going to make some more money than you can afford to kind of retire there? What is holding you back from going there like next week? Well, money doesn't move me because if money didn't move me, I would have killed myself 36 years ago. So yes, we need money to live, but how much is enough money to live? When it comes to money, I'm not a greedy person. My father's always say all I need is a car to get from A to B, a house to live in, small business to make some money. That's all I need is a car to get from a to be a house to live in small business

To make some money. That's all you need. You need anything else and that warm weather doesn't hurt either woman It doesn't hurt me at all beautiful country Mary and I are gonna come visit you In Jamaica sure you come come down take your own will be there Mary any final thoughts here before we wrap it up. I Just check the clock. Unbelievable the amount of time you guys gave me and I really do appreciate it as you know. But Mary, any final thoughts before we say goodbye here?

I think you covered everything and I'm really, really so pleased you're able to give Ben this platform. Too often people talk about him or at him or around him and for him to be able to sit here and talk directly to people I think that's wonderful so I have no parting thoughts. No further questions your honor. Okay this is the dubbing part two here now

please Ben any any final thoughts on your way out? Thanks again for being here don't leave without the lasagna we have to take a photo by the Toronto tree that's what we're calling it now, Mary. And that's every guest gets that and I'll, we'll take one together. I'll take one of Ben. What a pleasure it was to get to know you better. Love the straight shooting, tell it like it is attitude.

I wish more people were like that, but Ben, any final words before we say goodbye? I love you all have a good day. Bless you. Perfect parting words. I'm gonna cut that out there. That'll be the new closing of Toronto Mikes after this song, every episode will play that.

Mary Ormsby, the book is called World's Fastest Man, The Incredible Life of Ben Johnson. Now I notice the asterisks. I always, you know, this is the thing. I said this the other day. I grew up reading comic books of a character named Asterisk. Asterix, okay, Asterix is the character and I read these comic books and I love them so much and now I have trouble saying the word Asterisk because of

Asterix. I need help, right, Mary? Like, there's no, is there any hope for me? Have some palma pasta, that's better than your other sponsor, the Ridley Funeral Home. So yeah. Well, if you eat enough of that, you'll end up there eventually. We all end up there eventually. But thank you, Mary, for writing the book and thank you for returning to Toronto, Mike. Thank you so much. This will be your final appearance.

We'll get you back here again. And Ben, honestly, thank you so much for this time today and for sharing from your heart. I thoroughly enjoyed it. Thank you very much. And that brings us to the end of our 1,474th show. You can follow me on Twitter in blue sky. I'm at Toronto Mike. Make sure you pick up a copy of Mary Ormsby's World's Fastest Man, The Incredible Life of Ben Johnson. It's available now wherever you get your books. Shout out to FOTM Steven Brunt who says it was the greatest moment in Canadian sports history and Brunt's a smart guy. He knows what he's talking about. Much love to all who made this

possible. That's Great Lakes Brewery. That's Palma Pasta. That's Recycle My Electronics.ca. That's Raymond James Canada. That's the Toronto Maple Leafs baseball team. That's Monaris. And of course Ridley Funeral Home. See you all tomorrow when rapper Classified makes his Toronto debuted in the Toronto Mike basement. See you all then. And your smile is fine and it's just like mine And it won't go away Cause everything is rolling in gray I've been told that there's a sucker born every day But I wonder who

Yeah, I wonder who, yeah I wonder who Maybe the world doesn't realize there's a thousand shades of gray Cause I know that's true, yes I do, I know it's true, yeah