Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - Ben Rayner: Toronto Mike'd #476

Episode Date: June 13, 2019

Mike chats with Toronto Star music critic Ben Rayner about his career in music journalism and so much more.

Welcome to episode 476 of Toronto Mic'd, a weekly podcast about anything and everything. Proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, Propertyinthe6.com, Palma Pasta, Fast Time Watch and Jewelry Repair, StickerU.com, and Capadia LLP CPAs. I'm Mike from TorontoMike.com and joining me is the Toronto Stars music critic, Ben Rayner. Hello. Better late than never, as you said. Yeah, after cancelling twice, I still managed to be half an hour late. Keeping it real. No, man.

Did you walk the whole way? No, I finally saw a streetcar. I waited patiently because I didn't want to be extra long. I would have walked. Hold on, a little jam here to warm us up here. It's good to see you, by the way. Finally. on a little jam here to warm us up here it's good to see you by the way finally all right it's my ben jam

are we allowed to like are you allowed to like michael jackson now or no i you know what i gotta write something uh today about the 10th anniversary of his death. So I'm actually, this is a question that I've been pondering for most of the afternoon. When I saw, at first I thought no, and then I realized like the radio stations haven't slowed down

and I still see. Some of them have. I think some have pulled them. Okay, well not in this market, right? I mean, it's, the way I look at it, and you're now letting me kind of workshop the column. Good.

Okay, let's do that. Let's help each other. I'm selling out my employers. But there's been a lot of despicable people who've made art. And I think maybe because the immediacy of media now and the all-pervasiveness of it, it's a little easier to have that thrown in your face. But I'm sure if you went back through the annals of classical literature or whatever,

there's a lot of horrible... So I don't know where you draw the line. And I think it's a personal thing. I think that's the conclusion I've drawn, is if you feel strongly about it... I can't listen to Michael Jackson now without... I mean, it's been in the back of my head for years. Oh, so you're saying I should bring this down then?

Yeah. Not even Ben. That song bedeviled my youth too. I was going to ask you about that because, you know, I didn't know that song until the Simpsons episode, right? Willard and Ben are wicked movies. Yeah, but I didn't see them.

See, I'm a horror movie nut. That's why I know these things. But do you remember, you know, they pulled that from the streaming services, Stark Raving Dad, one of my favorite simpsons episodes that's the one where uh homer's in the uh insane asylum oh yeah yeah yeah and he meets a guy yeah uh they pulled it from the streaming yes whatever these simpsons world i hate the song that he does for lisa oh lisa it's your birthday oh it's awful and uh that song like there's a little moment I think the patient

who says he's Michael Jackson sings Ben. And that's the first time I heard Ben. Like I'm a bit young, I guess. I missed Ben. I don't know. But you must have grown up

with a lot of Ben. Well, I mean, the movie probably came out when I was like three, but I found out of it because I was taunted with it. Of course. That's why I played it.

Thanks for taunting me. Thanks for bringing back a lot of painful memories, Mike. I didn't mean to interrupt your workshopping there. So when's this due? Like when is this column due? I'm leaving town next week, so it's going to be due tomorrow. I have no choice.

Okay. That's my next assignment after Toronto Mike is to go and write about Michael Jackson. Maybe keeping one eye on the Raptors. Good for you. I was going to ask you about that. Definitely keeping one eye on the Raptors. You're not normally a Raptor.

I'm going to guess you're not normally a sports fan. I am actually. I saw you were at, like during a key Raptor game, I saw you were at a show at the Horseshoe. Was that because work beckoned or something? I do have another life. Soccer is my jam.

I'm a pretty big Leafs fan too. I just keep it quiet. I enjoyed watching the Bruins go down last night. Yeah, me too. And I was watching. I don't make a big deal of it, but I was watching. I only tuned in because the Bruins were going to lose and I said I want to see the Blues win this thing.

Yeah, I think I watched one period of that Stanley Cup final last. I saw the third period. I watched, I actually want to, as much as I swore, I usually, I tune it out once the Canadian teams are out. But I think I watched every game of the final. Well, good for you. Yeah.

Just keep it, I'll have it on the background while I'm working usually. That's my excuse. I'm not actually watching the Bruins. My stepmother is a Bruins fan. So I took great delight last night in watching them go down in flames. All right, level with me.

How long will it take you to bang out this Michael Jackson column once your fingers touch the keyboard? It depends. It's like whenever I'm writing, when I was a kid, I'd paint houses sometimes in the summer. And it's that kind of thing where you're like,

that'll take about three hours. And then it takes two days right sometimes things come really quickly sometimes things take a really long time and and i get really frustrated now because i i think because we're not you know a print focused medium anymore uh the deadlines aren't as firm as they used to be so it's sort of like have it in by the morning or have it in tomorrow midday and it's you're like but back in the day i would come back from a show with 11 and i'd have to file by midnight yeah and that would be it like you had no choice whether it was shit or not like it had to be it had to be done and now i find there's a bit more latitude so i can think about stuff a little too much and i really and given given the license to to dick around i

will dick around for a long time with stuff because i'm really a perfectionist well i'm glad i could help you workshop it anyway but let me talk that through so you walked like okay so we were just chatting about you were gonna walk here and then you jumped on a streetcar but uh you told me like you're a walker right you can walk some pretty intense distances, right? No, I like, yeah, I just like to walk. It's meditative, I think. It chills me out. It takes a long time.

I like walking a lot, too. But I find, like, if I have to get somewhere, it's a four-hour walk. Well, no, I'll bike that in an hour or whatever. Like, I just, I bike because it's so much faster. But it takes a lot of time to walk. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think maybe it's,

here's another moment of therapy. Yeah, let's do it. Maybe it's because I think so much of what I do is really fast-paced. If I have the time, like on a given weekend, I wasn't kidding, like I'll walk to

Marie Curtis Park or whatever and back just because I can't really hike in the city, but I like hiking. So I'll just go on like, and I do these things that I call them random walks where I just take random streets and I'll wind really hike in the city, but I like hiking. So I'll just go on like, and I do these things that I call them random walks

where I just take random streets and I'll wind up in, you know, Weston or something. No, good for you. In the middle of a snowstorm. I do the exact same thing on a bicycle, but that's really cool, I think. I think walking forces me to slow down and I'm not by nature somebody who's very good at sitting still.

So I think it's like walking in trains those things like okay now you're a night owl i guess because you're your nature of your work you're like a night owl right like i remember one time we were going to book this appearance and i think i suggested something like i don't know 11 a.m and you were like no way could i be there that early or something no i yeah if i'm if i'm filing after a show it's quite often three or four in the morning before I'm done. And I have a two and a half year old daughter. So she'll wake me up at seven

and I'll try to get back to sleep for a couple of hours. That's actually been like the big adjustment of being a dad is the night owl-ness. So I went up now kind of splitting my days for good or ill, but it'll be like noon to 4 30 and then when the kid and and my partner in bed i'll get back to work and sometimes that's till 4 30 in the morning and then i kind of wake up for a bit in the morning my daughter jumps on the bed and then i go back to sleep it's like i nap now I think for the past two and a half years I've napped rather than sleep.

Periodically I just go down for like 28 hours. That sounds like a dream, man. It's been a long time. Oh, I have a hotel room in Winnipeg for two nights next week to myself. It's going to be glorious. Oh, man. So you're the first guest ever who got his

lasagna before his appearance. So you were booked i was too ill to eat it for a couple of days all right but i did eat it and enjoy it and uh good and you enjoyed your lasagna so that's actually an empty box like for the cameras literally now i'm doing props here like there's an empty box for the camera but you've already received your palma pasta lasagna i have and i did enjoy it, good. That's courtesy of Palma Pasta. So you go to palmapasta.com to find out where they are. They're in Mississauga and Oakville.

If you go to Skip the Dishes, I believe they're there. And I'm just going to actually change your level. So I've got you piped up really loud, but then I hear a little feedback here. So little adjustments on the fly here. I like feedback. Yeah. Well, I always say more distortion is better. But if you maybe angle just, I know you're doing a great job,

but if you get the mic even a bit more in front of you. I'm going to do that. Oh, yeah. All right, that way. Okay, good. Thank you so much. So palmapasta.com, they have a Father's Day special, and I took a note so I don't screw this up.

So if you go before Father's Day to Palmapasta, they have a father's day special and i took a note so i don't screw this up so if you go before father's day to palma pasta they have a large lasagna it feeds eight people and it is on sale for 26.99 so just tell them you don't even have to tell them toronto mike sent you but you should do that tell them toronto mike sent you and pick up your palma pasta lasagna now ben i didn't drop off any beer but you got a a six-pack here from Great Lakes Brewery. Are we allowed to crack one of those right now? Yeah, yeah. Do you want me to go upstairs to the fridge and get you a cold one, or do you want to...

Like, I don't mind. Really? Like, if I ran, it would take me 30 seconds. You just tell a story or something. I'm trying to think of a good story. All right, just... Or tell people about the last concert you... I had to go to Billie Eilish on...

What night was it? Monday night. Alone, a 44-year-old male without a child, feeling like a creepo. Fortunately, I had a couple of friends who had daughters there. And I had a totally, totally good time. She's 17.

Most of her fans are that age or younger, it seems. And I swear that show was 97% female. But I had a totally, totally good time. I was talking about Billie Eilish. I'm on Team Eilish. I've come around. I have an Eilish jam because I knew you were there. Hold on here.

Thanks for the beer. Such a good time. Thank you. Coming back all the time that's the that's the that's the I like the if you want more

let me know I got more so this is Billie Eilish not Billie Idol I like Billie Idol too yeah me too me too And this is called Bad Guy.

So tell me about the show. And you said you're 44. Is that what you said? Yeah. I'm 44. But you've been at the Star for 60 years. I don't think the math works. The Star has taken my entire adult life i started

there yeah i was pretty much fresh out of school well it's funny in my mind and i i was a star family like so the star was delivered to my home and i always read your column it's now i realize i was always reading it as an adult it just feels like i was a teenager reading you but that's uh like a misremember mismemory that's not possible either that means like I was a teenager reading you, but that's like a mis-memory. That's not possible. Either that means I write like a teenager or we are both living in delusion. How many years at the Star now? It'll be 21 years on June 22nd.

So we're coming right up on it. Oh, wow. Yeah, that's half my life. Almost half my life. Yeah, and that's a, dare dare i say that's a rarity nowadays like it feels like you music critics don't typically do that i am immensely grateful to them um for hanging on to me because there aren't a lot of um i mean they have to hang on to me it's a union shop but uh they don't have to hang on to a music critic and and uh i think i'm i mean i'm very close to the last full-time music writer

at a daily uh in canada although i mean i do the odd news shift and and stuff now and i i pitch in where i can i think it was just the reality of there not being as many people in the newsroom but amazing but yeah when i when you know when the globe got rid of when when Brad Wheeler was moved to movies and stuff, I was like, man, am I fucked? I could go one way or another. They can take pride in the fact that they're the last man standing or they'll be like, that's extraneous. And for some reason,

they've allowed me to keep doing what I'm doing. But do you have a plan? Like, should you, I don't know, should shit go down and you're out of a gig, do you have what you want to do next lined up in your head? Are you psychologically prepared for that possibility? Yeah, I mean, I joke all the time. I don't mean to be bumming you out or anything. No, no, I joke all the time that I'm just going to move back to the East Coast

and work in a hardware store. And I'm only half kidding. And I'd be perfectly happy doing something else completely. So the mother of your child, are you married to her? Might as well be. Okay, close enough.

Would she go with you? Well, we're both from, she's from Newfoundland, I'm from New Brunswick. And Newfoundland was my entry point into Canada. So I'm, she's a social worker.

There's a lot of need for that out there. She could support me. See, I'm going to help you with your career transitions career transitions here thank you it's all therapy mike so billy eilish is a good show you enjoyed yourself i totally did i mean honestly it was i i think to being around that much you know i've been to like a lot of boy band shows and stuff and it's even this was i the amount of just like unbridled kind of feminine energy. Like I think every, you look at the pictures and there's almost no guys in that crowd. The odd dad, the odd like gay dude and like, and a couple of boys.

I've been to shows like that. Yeah, yeah. But this was like, I've never, I've never been at one where it was just so much like it was just purely female and i it was it was really cool because i spent a lot of times a lot of my nights at shows where it's like 15 000 dudes right and it's just like i i like seeing i like i like the fact that she's touched a nerve with an audience an audience i think too like a lot of pop music, quote, unquote, isn't, I've come to realize a lot of pop music isn't taken seriously because it is music that appeals to women as well as men.

And most music critics tend to be men. And over time, I'm like, that's, I think there's this whole, you know, a lot of stuff has just been written off historically as kind of fluff purely because women like it. And I kind of like that the marketplace now um is able to access these audiences directly so something like billy eilish can come out without the industry really being aware you know you can't it seems like she came out of nowhere for like guys my age we just all of a sudden there's this billy eilish person who is selling tickets

and people you know what i mean like she just kind of came out of nowhere well it's the same i had to go review 21 pilots a couple weeks ago and i was like i couldn't own you a 21 pilot song like i don't and and then once i got there i was like oh i know these tunes but it's it's not in my face i think it's like the whole echo chamber effect people talking but the same with music or culture like you don't there's there's no monoculture right so it's something like billy eilish or 21 Pilots can flourish with a young, like tech savvy audience. Whereas we're not listening to SoundCloud necessarily. We're probably playing a record.

We're not tuned in. I'm not following Billie Eilish on Instagram. So there's a whole world out there that we don't know about, I feel like. And that's my job to know about it right and uh when you were originally so a lot of my notes i took for this episode i did for your first appearance that never happened like so a lot of this is dated like for example for example my second appearance it didn't happen oh that's right

so i believe like the first time you were going to come by was right after you attended Ariana Grande? Does that sound about right? See, I find that, with no disrespect to her, because she's talented, but I feel like anybody... I don't see any distinction between Ariana Grande and a hundred other R&B artists.

I feel like anybody could be on stage doing those songs because she didn't write them. It's very programmatic. And I felt that. Part of the show, I was like, I couldn't even... Sometimes I was like, where is she? Because she blended in with her dancers so completely. And she wasn't singing.

That's weird, eh? Because I took my daughter to Selena Gomez, and I'm pretty sure Selena sang, but I was actually surprised because all I ever saw were these pop singers on award shows and they were always lip syncing. Well, they sing, right? They just mic it low. The guide vocal, and then somebody's mixing it.

So most of the time they're not just mouthing along. They're probably singing. Okay. Remember, wasn't there the famous Britney Spears one where they screwed it up and they ran her vocal? No, you know who that was? That was the younger sister of Jessica. Oh, Ashley Simpson.

Yeah, but she wasn't even singing. At least with Britney, she was singing off key. Oh, you're right. Ashley was standing there while her voice carried on. You're so right. You're right. There's two different names. She did a very awkward dance.

That's what I'm doing. This is a very awkward dance that she did. Which is great. And then she blamed her drummer or something. And we haven't heard from her since. I feel like that was it. Like she just disappeared into the abyss. So Ariana Grande, you see, she's like,

I want to say she's just kind of like cookie cutter. I don't get it. The whole thrust of my review was like, I don't get this. This could be anybody. I get that she, like it really could be any, to my eyes, it could be anybody. The songs are written

by the same people who write for everybody else. I don't think she's that spectacular a singer. I think she's got a very thin range. I just spoke to a class a couple weeks ago

and one of the students was like, what does he have against Ariana Grande? Like nothing personal. But I also think some very horrible things happened to her

and that kind of gave her a bump. That's maybe a callous thing. The Manchester, you mean? The Manchester bombing. I think that made her more famous than she had if she was already famous but i just i don't get it i don't get it don't get ariana grande my daughter my 14 year old is my source for all this stuff she tells me ariana was a tv star i missed all this because she was it see that that demo knows her from tv and we're like we don't know her from tv it's like hey what's the uh the hillary duff or whatever they're out there kind of ready-made but they knows her from TV and we're like we don't know her from TV it's like Hillary Duff

or whatever they're kind of ready made but that doesn't mean that they can I enjoy this trajectory from like Nickelodeon or the Disney Channel to like a pop career

well like Selena Gomez Selena Gomez who could also be anybody she doesn't write those songs she's not really singing those songs on stage that's true but Hannah Montana's good

I know I'm on team Miley you're on team yeah me too I think she's good but you're right the rest are interchangeable you and I like her name. I'm on team Miley. You're on team, yeah, me too. I think she's good, but you're right. The rest are interchangeable. You and I like with our, whoa, Billie Eilish, Miley Cyrus. No kid is going to touch that shit now.

All right, granddad. Those kids don't listen to Toronto Mike. That's one thing. And we're going to talk soon, actually. I want to talk to you shortly about 90s CanCon. That's coming up soon. I want to talk about that. But I also, because we talked Billie Eilish,

I just want to tell you what, and maybe because you're the same age, you'd agree, but when I was in primary school, which my wife says is not called primary school, but I believe it's called primary school,

but elementary school. Just school, Mike. Grade school. Grade school. Right. Middle school. I thought Billie Eilish was the coolest guy in the planet.

Dude, I think, yeah. Generation X? Generation X are amazing probably through those first two Billy Idol actually the first I love Whiplash Smile up to Vital Idol

Whiplash Smile is wicked too it's an underrated record because it has a great cover of the Doors LA Woman on there that's the one after I think oh is that the one after

I think then there's Charmed Life is alright oh no that's Charmed Life you're right no Whiplash Smile is Don't Need a Gun and To Be a L right Whiplash Smiles don't need a gun to be a lover

it's just like a really they're both Rebel Yell they're really like techy they're almost like electronic records but they have this punk rocker singing and Steve Stevens wailing away on guitar I think Billy Idol in large part was how like the nine year old me got into punk rock

it's like a gateway drug you get the Gen X records and you're like holy shit large part was how like the nine-year-old me got into punk rock you know what i mean like it was like it's like a gateway drug yeah you get the gen x records you're like holy shit these are great too yeah because the first and third gen even valley of the dolls but the first and third are really because the third has the keith forsey production it's i'm really nerding out now no do it i love it man uh in fact nerdy now and the original version of dancing with myself is on kiss me deadly i gotta ask you about this band before we move on. Can you name that tune?

I can't name the specific tune. Give me the record. I don't know, man. I gotta plead ignorance here. That's why I'm talking to you about this. So,

what's the name of this band? Is it Voivod? Voivod, yes. And this is Ravenous Medicine. Oh, yeah, yeah. Ravenous? of this band? Is it Voivod? Voivod, yes. And this is Ravenous Medicine. Oh, yeah, yeah. Ravenous?

Is this on Dimension Hat? No, this is earlier. Anyway, yes. Okay, so what's your relationship with this music? What can you tell me about Voivod? Well, Nothing Face was one of my favorite records when I was a kid. I grew up in Charlotte, Canada, New Brunswick, so I've come by my metal fanhood,

especially thrash metal. I love thrash metal. I love Slayer now more than I did when I was 16. I think I love Voivod. I can't say it because when I was 15 or when Nothingface came out, I played that record so much. They're from Quebec?

Yeah, from industrial Quebec. Yeah, I had a really cool... I'm going to tell you my Juno story. Yeah, do it. Of going out to the smoking area to keep some friends company. And there's this sort of older Quebecois guy behind me. And he's like, what? Is nobody smoking a joint here?

And I was like, I got weed. Do you want to smoke a joint? So we're talking and I shake his hand. I'm like, what's your name? Ben. He doesn't even say Denis. He's like, Dennis. And I was like, oh weed you want to smoke a joint so we're talking and i shake his hand i'm like what's your name ben he doesn't even say denny he's like dennis i was like oh dennis what's your connect what are you doing here like you don't look like you fit in with these losers kind of thing as the two miscreants um i guess it's legal now we weren't miscreants uh and uh he's like oh i play in a band i'm like oh what's the band he's like i'm the lead singer of hoibod and i just leapt up on him and gave him a big hug.

I was like, Nothing Face is one of my favorite albums of all time. And then I wound up hanging out with those guys a little bit all weekend. And then they played a brew pub in London that didn't even have a real PA. So I got to see Voivod play through their amps, basically. It was like being in Voivod's rehearsal space. It was like a diehard crowd. I got absolutely annihilated drunk and had the time of my life. I dragged a bunch of my friends being in Voivod's rehearsal space. It was like a die-hard crowd. I got absolutely annihilated drunk and had the time

of my life. I dragged a bunch of my friends who became Voivod who were doubters but became Voivod fans. I just gotta plead ignorance. They weren't on my radar and I only recently learned about them. They won like a Juno? I think they won like Hard Rock Metal Album of the Year or something.

There's a cult, a worldwide cult. It's one of those things. Oh, like Anvil? Yeah. I think even more rarefied than Anvil, perhaps. You can roll into every town, there's a pocket of very dedicated Voivod fans. And it's not for everybody.

But it's so... I mean, the new record is fantastic. It's their first one. They've actually... Their original guitarist, I mean, the new record is fantastic. At their first one, they've actually, because their original guitarist, Piggy, died a few years ago and left them

two albums worth of material kind of in the raw stages. And then they saw those two records through. But this was actually the first one they've written

without him because he was kind of the musical mastermind and they have a new guitarist. And it's a classic, like bonkers, totally prog,

insanely complicated sci-fi story of Oivad Raka. Because there's that whole thing. There's a whole character. It's a deep well, Mike. No, I hear that. That's why I'm fascinated to hear from people like you who have been to the bottom of that well. Like, I need to know what's going on down there. I just learned this well.

A lot of dystopian science fiction nonsense. A little taste, maybe. hugely influential too a lot of bands that sound like boybods around here how's the connect pale ale is it good I love this one I like the pompous ass one and actually the octopus wants it I buy a lot of Great Lakes products.

You don't even need me to. I would happily endorse them. No, good to hear. I need to now tell you, as soon as Voidvine, they're wrapping up. I need to tell you about an event that's happening on June 27th, okay? Tell the Toronto Star to cover this one, okay? TMLX3, that's the toronto mic listener experience it's happening at the brewery the patio on uh from six to nine p.m not far north of here really close to here

you could walk yeah i could walk there i'm gonna probably best even even those short distances i like to bike but uh you walk there i'll bike there uh i don't have voivod unfortunately but lowest of the low are going to perform. Which is a great Toronto band. That's like a legendary Toronto band. I feel like... They're kind of like... I say this with all due respect.

When I moved to Toronto, I didn't realize how much they meant to Toronto. It's very specific. The way the Tragically Hip was to Canada, I feel like the Lowest of the Low are to some extent... Okay, this is very timely. I just did Tragically Hip was to Canada, I feel like the lowest to low are to some extent. Okay, this is very timely. So I just did another podcast. I went to Twitter Canada and I did,

it's called Completely Ignored. Cam Gordon has it with Sam Cohn from The Watchmen. So the drummer for The Watchmen is a co-host. So the premise is you bring an album and you fight like for the album. This is like the premise of the podcast. And I brought Shakespeare My Butt by Lois Lelow. Sammy, who's from Winnipeg,

he's the drummer for The Watchmen. Did he bring a Watchmen? No, he didn't bring a Watchmen. They were from Regina, weren't they? No, he's the host. He doesn't have to bring anything. No, they're from Winnipeg. They're a Winnipeg band.

Danny Graves was here last week, actually, speaking of The Watchmen. I like The Watchmen. But Sammy went off on the low, basically saying that, yeah, they can sell out the Danforth Music Hall here in Toronto, but he says they couldn't get arrested in Vancouver. He says this is a strictly Toronto phenomenon,

lowest of the low. And it sounds like you're suggesting the same thing. Well, even in the, I mean, I guess, I think their kind of initial rise, maybe I was still in Ottawa, because I was in Ottawa for six years. Yeah, 92, I'd say, 91, 92. I remember I'd of initial rise, maybe I was still in Ottawa because I was in Ottawa for six years. Yeah, 92, I'd say. 91, 92.

No, I would have been like... See, yeah, I remember I'd hear them on Brave New Waves or something when I lived in New Brunswick, but it wasn't... Ontario was where I kind of realized that they were popular. 102.1 played the shite out of them, right?

Yeah, I think that's... But again, I would draw a parallel to the hip kind of being contained within Canada's borders. I feel like the GTA kind of contains low to low. And that explains a few things. Like, for example, the low can go play in Buffalo, for example, because Buffalo listened to 102.1, right? So like wherever the airwaves 102.1 were received in the early to mid 90s that's like uh fertile ground for uh low fans well that was the same thing with the hip right they'd have following the detroit and buffalo in the

border towns but you're right it's like yeah buddy i really do think like i honestly i i if they were to play buncton or something i don't know how many people would come out you know i i honestly i had no idea like i'm born and raised in toronto so i don't know how many people would come out. I honestly had no idea. I'm born and raised in Toronto, so I don't know these things. I just know what's here. But yeah, these guys were massive, right? So just a little Henry Needs a New Pair of Shoes,

which I saw these guys on May 31st at the Danforth Music Hall, and they did a great Henry Needs a New Pair of Shoes. So just put in the background. So yeah, they're going to perform on June 27th, and I really urge uh anyone listening uh who listens to this program is invited the first beer is on the house courtesy of great lakes they're going to pour your first beer there's going to be stickers from sticker

you.com they're actually going to give out lowest of the low stickers right sticker you.com uh you just you upload your image you can get uh stickers, these decals back here, buttons. There's a, for your kid maybe. She's a bit young. I don't know. But there's a temporary tattoo right there. Dad's covered in tattoos. So she knows about tattoos.

Oh, no. I got a question about your tattoos coming up next. Don't worry. Don't worry. Don't worry. But yeah, you can get one or as many as you want. Go to stickeru.com. Make it happen.

Like I said, they're going to have some Toronto Mike stickers at the TMLX3. But yeah, why isn't the star covering TMLX3? I'm only half joking. Well, maybe I'll be there in spirit. What's the date? Let me make sure I'm in town before I promise this. Well, in spirit, you don't have to be in town. But June 27.

Oh, I'm back in town. The star will be there in spirit. Sorry. I'll come out. Who's the guy, Patrick Corrigan? Do you know this gentleman? He used to write cartoons. I think he still does it, actually, as a part-time thing. I feel like his name's still around.

Okay, he does some of the artwork for Great Lakes. Some of the cans are Patrick Corrigan artwork. I love their artwork. One of the things I find cool about that brewery, because they kind of rebranded themselves a few years ago. Wasn't it called something else originally? No, it's been Great Lakes for, like, 31 years, actually. It's okay.

But as long as you drink it, that's all that matters. I do drink it. Yeah, so enjoy it. So I've given you, yeah, I've given you stickers. Let's see where that ends up. Let me know. Tweet it at me. And I gave you lasagna, and I gave you beer.

So I've given you everything. Basically, we're married now. Pretty much. Well, yeah, why not so that's how it works now but uh let me just think let me ask you about the let's do the tattoos thing so i saw a tweet from you it said this uh kidding kidding i'm a nerd got beaten up for it have about 25 tattoos of aliens love blade runner etc 25 tattoos 5 26 i got a new one of another well ufo this time so is it all right now as they're 25 aliens one cat smoking a joint underneath the ufo which any i got that after my daughter was born as any responsible father should and i just got another ufo so i've branched out. So have you always been fascinated by...

There's two Plastic Man tattoos too, but those kind of look like aliens. No, I'm a total UFO nut. That's my other passion. Like forever? This is like as a kid? Yeah, since I was like a kid. I have a couple of bookshelves

full of like rare out of print UFO books in the 50s and 60s. And I've been asked to speak at a ufo event before a couple of times uh like so you i mean you you believe in ufos i mean i don't even have to phrase that but you believe that there's been ufos to earth like my thing my way to mollify people who go from directly from a to b or A to alien, and doubt that, although I feel some UFOs are probably extraterrestrial in origin,

is you don't actually have to believe in UFOs because they exist. They show up on radar, they knock down trees, they burn holes in the ground. We just don't know what they are. They're unidentified. So they could be a naturally occurring weather phenomenon that we're't aware of the

manifest as a solid metal object view in flame could it be just tons of top secret aircraft some of them could be you know like time travelers or interdimensional like we just don't know what they are so there's lots of theories and that's what i find interesting like i i love i love the like there's a lot of nut bark shit out there, don't get me wrong. But when you read someone like Jacques Vallée or Némi Michel, like some of these guys, the original, like, serious, these are, like, serious scientists. It's really cool. And these are very smart people thinking about something. And also just complaining that, well, actually, Jacques Vallée correctly predicted that if there was no serious scientific study of UFOs, the crackpots would fill the void.

And that's what happened, right? And there's been an official policy of discrediting UFO witnesses for years on the part of the CIA. Not because I think they have some grand conspiracy. I think they just don't want people to know that they don't know what they are. So these are the things I say to people

when they're like, UFOs, you're crazy. I'm like, well, what are they? They're just unidentified flying objects oh fascinating uh because i noticed there was a like it seemed like once there was an advent of like uh camera phones and everything that a lot of these reports seem to go away like you know what i mean like those i'm talking about those like drunken like southern bumpkins but that's like but that's a stereotype perpetuated by... I'm glad you're here to send me streams. There are actually military memoranda from the 40s and 50s

saying our policy is to officially discredit these. Like, to paint people... I love the X-Files, too. This is good. I feel... I mean, it's a deep well. It's really... Friends that I've led down it are like,

wow, this is actually really interesting because we don't know what these things are and and shouldn't we know what they are they seem to be able to penetrate our airspace and dance around our planes right disappear reappear at will that's my thing it's just like why aren't people interested in this topic that's all that and that fascinates me i think we get so many so many other things we got to deal with i just think it's just too much to focus on that like i feel like we're just inundated with like our own problems or whatever like i mean i love reading theoretical physics i mean it's the same kind of thing with my like theoretical physics ufology those are kind of but my girlfriend's always like if i'm talking about like you know quarks and the the you know the makeup of matter and uh she's just like i don't want to know about that you know and it's

kind of the same thing with a lot of the ufo stuff your people are just like I don't want to know about that. And it's kind of the same thing with a lot of the UFO stuff. People are just like, I don't want to think of it. Yeah, you're right. It breaks your brain, I think. And then all we want to think about is like, can the Raps clinch it tonight? Can we end this in six and we don't have a game seven? Honestly, one day was heartbreaking.

Yeah, there's a couple of things about it. And I feel like I've walked through that game so many times in my mind. And yeah, we already know they blew that call. Gasol was fouled with 40 minutes. But we can't do anything about that. But a couple of things. One is I get really angry about that 24-second clock violation

late down the stretch. And then I get angry that the game ended when Nick Nurse had a timeout in his pocket. Like, I feel like use it because you got last possession there. You only need two to win, okay? It was, like. I don't know. Like, call a timeout instead of play, and then, instead of this broken play, and then

Kyle's throwing up a prayer from the corner. But this one, they were, I mean, that they, I was like, they'll be out in five. And this series, they really impressed me, because they've held their own. There was, like, one, that one in third quarter in game two, right? Where they kind of slacked. And this one, they kind of... This is the first time they've been slack again. And it's a game of increments,

which is surprising against Golden State. But they just need to... I think if they're on top, then they can lose it a little bit. But it's the coming from behind is hard. They can keep close. And that's the way it's going to be. These games are really close. They just need that a little bit. But it's the coming from behind is how they can keep close. And that's the way it's going to be. These games are really close.

They just need that a little bit of a spread like eight or ten points and cling to a slim lead. It doesn't have to be pretty. Well, you're right because that game we were behind the whole game.

And then there was what I call this. And that was the first one where we were behind the whole game. Even game two, right? We blew it in the third. You're absolutely right. You're absolutely right. We had a really bad third quarter. We. Yeah, no, it's we. It's we. It's Toronto. We the North, right? We blew it in the third. You're absolutely right. You're absolutely right. We had a really bad third quarter.

We. Yeah, no, it's we. It's we. It's Toronto. We the North. We the North blew it. Come on. We the North blew it.

I saw the flag in your window. I fly the flag. I fly that flag. I was flying that flag for the game one loss versus Orlando. So I was all in, always. It's been a fun run. I honestly think they can do it. I didn't think they would do it,

but they have not been outclassed in this series. I really feel like they're going to eke this out. It may take seven games. I hope it doesn't. I hope they win tonight. I don't know if my heart could take a game seven. I can't do it. I don't want to think about it.

It's also getting really expensive. I don't have cable. Oh, okay. Well, there's streams I can introduce you to. With my five-year-old computer? No one's listening to this. My only frame of reference for any of this

is the 92 and 93 Blue Jays, which I thoroughly enjoyed and I remember being up three to one in those series, both of them. Losing game five and then sealing the deal in game six,

both times. Like, that's all I know for the major league championship series or whatever, like for my teams anyway. So I feel like we win tonight. I feel like most people will hear our voices right now after the fact. Like I feel like it's happening tonight.

All right. Well, honestly, I feel confident. But maybe they want to win at home. Maybe subconsciously they want to win at home. But that's not Toronto style. No, no, no, no, no. They do not subconsciously. they want to win at home. Maybe subconsciously they want to win at home. But that's not Toronto style. No, no, no, no, no. They do not subconsciously. They would have won it.

No, they didn't. They want to win. I would very much like to see them just put it away. If anything, they'd rather win it in California. It'd just be more fun to party probably. And then they'll make their way back here for the parade or whatever. But let's hope it all happens tonight. So, of course, now that I'm mentioning the Raptors, I need to play.

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Brian, Raptors are going to win it in six. We're going to do this tonight, buddy. Even Ben agrees with me. I'm guardedly optimistic, yes. I'm guardedly optimistic. Living in Toronto for 21 years has conditioned me. And just being a Leafs fan for life has conditioned me for disappointment. Although, being a TFC fan, two very good years there,

including one extra very good year. Right, an MLS Cup. Does it offend you when people say we haven't won a championship since 93? It does kind of. Honestly, the TFC is... I go to a lot of those games and it's still pretty cheap. So I'm just happy that it flies under the radar. Even the playoff games, I was getting in for like 100 bucks

and I was just rolling up as it started. I'm pretty shrewd. But I'd like $3,800, $4,500 for a ticket. It's not within my budget with a kid in daycare. Yeah, I don't even... Not within my budget, period. Yeah, I got two kids in daycare, so forget about it. I don't even think about it.

But I'll watch it on the telly. I barely live, you know, I just... Just sit down here in the basement, drinking Great Lakes. You know, I get by. Do you need to talk? Money is not my primary motivator what what's money dirty paper it's like you just need a little bit to get things soon as the kid came along it's like all right i don't have any money anymore and i don't i don't know how to phrase this about

being a rude asshole but uh like you seem like you had the perfect life man you were to be out all night partying like catching great music and like doing your thing and now you got a two and a half year old is is that at all uh like uh kind of a bummer that you can't quite live the same style or his lifestyle been pretty you know what i i is that rude question no i i really i really really like being a dad and i've like i've had i had 42 years of rock and roll and now i've been a music writer i was a music writer at the auto sim for a couple years so like i've had 23 years of rock and roll and now i've been a music writer i was a music writer at the auto sim for a couple years so like i've had 23 years of being a music writer i've partied plenty i can still pick my battles once in a while but i you know i uh i i kind of you got kids you it's

it's super i got four kids i thought you had three or four i got four kids you and my friend steven are both sociopaths. That's all I can say. I don't know how anyone would willingly subject themselves to that. Masochist. That's what I should say, not a sociopath. Well, you don't plan to have four. You plan to have two, and then you plan to have another two.

My story is two wives. Not at the same time, okay? Not concurrently. No. It's legal in some jurisdictions. I remember Big Love on HBO. There's been stuff about that. Okay, so you mentioned the Ottawa Sun,

so we're going to get you there. But first, and you already referred to the fact you're a Maritimer, but here's the Maritimer jam. Oh, the year was 1778. How I wish I was in Sherbrooke now. Do you feel like you have to sing along? I'm actually from England originally. Oh, you don't?

This doesn't apply to speech? I just got, I got, we landed in Gloverton. I was an infant, so I didn't really have much calling. But I can still claim, you know, I spoke with an English accent until I was six. And I got, or five, and started school. And then it was beaten out of me. Because I grew up with, you know, it was a transplanted english home until i had contact with other other children it was funny at that point in newfoundland there were lots of other british teachers and british dentists for some

reason about so a lot of our friends were from england too so it's like there's a little enclave of of uh you know transplanted ukdom in glovertown in Gander. And that's not really the Maritimes anyways, right? No, it's an Atlantic province. Right. And I made a mistake

before with Heather Bambrick. That's right. I think I made the same mistake. Yeah, no, my girlfriend corrects me all the time.

I say it because I grew up in New Brunswick. Well, I lived in New Brunswick for 11 years. Okay, so you're in Newfoundland,

you're in England, and then you're in Newfoundland, and then you're in New Brunswick? Is that how it goes? St. George, New Brunswick. Gateway to the Fundy Isles. Oh, that's Moncton, isn't it? No, what's in Moncton?

Moncton's like the hub city or something. Where do you walk on the ocean floor and they have those flower pots? That's Hopewell Rocks. But that's really close to Moncton, right? Okay, I've done that. I'm just trying to, yeah, it was Moncton. Okay.

All right, getting my, I've never been in Newfoundland. Newfoundland's amazing. Have you been to that Stephen Brunt Woody's Point Festival? No. Newfoundland is amazing. Have you been to that Stephen Brunt Woody's Point Festival? No, but Woody Point is amazing. Gros Morne National Park is one of my favorite places on the planet. And Woody Point and Rocky Harbor are two of the most beautiful communities you will ever set foot in.

So I strongly urge you to go to the Woody Point thing. No, it's a life goal. I'm going to do it. I just have to figure out when. But yeah. It's cool. It's a haul to get to the woody point thing no it's a life goal like i'm going to do it i just have to figure out when but yeah it's like it's cool because the hall to get to the west coast west coast newfoundland is totally different from the east coast but even within that you know area it's still a bit of a hall to the middle of nowhere to woody point and it's just this spectacular little community on a on a point overlooking the uh what's the straight? Oh my God. Whatever that body of water is between Newfoundland and the mainland.

But it's, it's just, it's probably fogged in 250 days a year, but it's still gorgeous. I'm sold, man. But are you aware of the songwriter festival? So I know I've,

I've heard of this thing. Okay. You've heard of it only because I've had Steven Brunt on a couple of times. He's on the organizing committee, I guess. I know he told me about the time Gord Downie was there and Tom Wilson and Blackie and the Rodeo Kings. Yeah, it sounds pretty amazing. We have friends in common,

and I've been told that I need to meet him and swing away to get out to this thing. Now we have you in common. What I'm thinking of is a Stephen Brunt, Ben Rayner episode. Would you come back if I had Brunt here just to talk music? I would happily do that. I just want to listen to him. We could talk music and Grossmore, actually.

You know what? I'm going to see if I can get this. I have to do it quickly, though, because Brunt has a summer home in Newfoundland, and he disappears. So I've got to do it quickly, but I'll work on that. We could do it from his summer home. I'll be there in a couple of weeks, actually. I've got to figure it out.

I guess that is kind of like a business expense, right? I just got to figure out how to finagle that one. But yeah, I'm in. Okay, so how did you get into journalism? I'll bring down Stan here, since you're not really a Maritimer. My parents actually met working on the Cambridge Evening News.

And then my dad became a music teacher and my mom was only retired about a year ago uh from a career as a reporter so i always say it was biological determinism that led me to this i basically split the difference really i did dad the music teacher and my mom was a reporter that's right and but they met as reporters yeah so it was kind of it always just seemed like a cool job. I'd go along with mom to stuff when I was a kid, and it's like, it's a different thing every day. That's still the appeal of it, I think.

It's not the same day twice. The writing part sucks for the most part, but meeting people and doing cool things is kind of why you do journalism. I remember feeling like journalism was a very cool thing to do. I even had aspirations for a short period of time like i'm like i want to do that it just sounds just seems like a cool cool gig like you got to be able to write and be smart and then you can yeah yeah it is you know what every so often i have to do like a late news shift or a weekend news shift for the star and it it uh i mean don't get me wrong sometimes as a son like when i was a

ga a general assignment reporter at the sun uh back in the day um briefly a crime reporter um it was my punishment for turning down my first full-time job offer to take a contract to replace their music writer for three months okay so so yeah so yeah how do you get like uh how do you get to ottawa to work for them i The Sun? I went to Carleton. I interned at The Sun, and they hired me for their summer student job. And on one of the last days of that job, because I'd made my passion to be a music writer

clear to the entertainment editor there, and he'd become kind of a bud, I got my phone rang, and Brian was like, they're going to call and offer you a job a city don't take it because paul canton who was then the music writer at the sun was leaving for three months to write a book about atlantis this being the time when atlantis morissette was the hot shit from ottawa and canada so i turned down my first full-time job offer like nodding like at the end of a summer student and against everybody's advice except for one dude in the sports department.

And it turned into four months. And after that, even though I was dangerously unqualified, I still got an interview with the Star for a music writer job that I didn't get. I went to my friend Betsy Powell. But it worked out because I was kind of punished

and sent to be a crime reporter at the sun but then paul left to move to toronto so i got the music critic job and then a couple of months after that the star called and they're like can't say that you'll have the job but we're gonna hire a second music writer so like it just all it all happened it's something very young i was no it was like 22 23 like i was young like 21 i think when i got the sun job and i was like i always thought i'd have to put in, everyone said, there'll be like 13 of those jobs in Canada.

You'll have to put in years and years and years. And I, yeah, I had my dream job. Like I wanted to be a music writer from the time I was like 11 or 12. I just had it. And now I've had it my whole life. Like I don't know anything.

I don't, I'm unemployable basically. Well, that's why I was trying to help you have some eventual career transition because I just, it's amazing you still got it. I hope you have it forever. On that note, before I forget, Jim Slotek wanted me to say hi to you.

I'll say hello back to Jim Slotek. Since you mentioned the Ottawa Sun. We are a son, brother. He was at the Toronto Sun. That's right. Oh, yeah. I had Jane Stevenson on recently. Jane is a good pal.

I always wonder how often you bump into Jane and Brad, for example. Oh, we're all friends. You must always bump into each other at all these different things. Yeah, Brad was at

the Billie Eilish show. I know, but I didn't. I actually didn't. I stayed up in the back with some friends who had kids there and just left my seat in the 200s

so some little girl could take it. Oh, nice. Brad did not. No. Brad occupied his seat and denied a 12-year-old girl her chance to see so some little girl could take it. Oh, nice. Brad did not. No, he... Brad occupied his seat and denied a 12-year-old girl

her chance to see Billie Eilish up close. Oh, I guess, so, you know, Jane's husband, of course, covers soccer. He says that all ties in with your love of English soccer. No, I, like, yeah, I've known Jane and Brad forever. We see each other, you know,

but probably, I mean, it shows once a week kind of thing, and we've all, I think, you know, I think over those, just as kind of like through exposure, everyone becomes friends. And they're, like, again, we're lucky to even have entertainment reporter jobs at this point in time. I'm guessing, we're going to get into this, actually before we get to the star.

So now we've got you, you get your feet wet at the Ottawa sun and you get like a, there's an opening at the star. So I guess they said no guarantee. Like, so what do you come to Toronto and interview for it? Yeah, it was my third time. I was interviewed for a summer student job when I was at Carlton too and

didn't get that. So it was my third time being interviewed. And I actually thought, I think I was, might've been that. No, it was the second time where I was like deathly ill. Like I had a terrible, terrible flu.

I took the bus down. I remember, but this one, I, I, I was convinced I didn't get it because I didn't think the interview went very well. Although like it was the John Ferry, the guy who hired me was back. It was clearly like I had one champion, but the other guy didn't seem too impressed. So I had like, John was the one who called me um who's now at tvo and a wicked dude um uh i was just convinced i didn't have it so i went back to my friend dennis's place and we did

mushrooms and christy pits all day and i was like all right i'm stuck in ottawa and i made peace i made peace with uh ottawa and then uh a couple later, I got the call. And here we are. Like, I'd never planned on living in Toronto. That's the weird thing. It never even occurred to me. But don't all Canadians plan to live in Toronto? I always wanted to live in Montreal. Still might do that.

Well, it's always one of the three places. You're either going to go do the Vancouver thing or the BC thing, or you're going to do Montreal or Toronto. But Toronto never entered. It's funny because I love Toronto and I've lived here for 20, I've lived here longer than anywhere I've ever lived.

And I, I really, I mean this, I think the city is actually in the time that I've been here grown up a lot and we were never cool, right?

It's kind of a cool town now. Yeah. The last decade or so. We were never cool. We still second guess it but it was always like Montreal, Vancouver, Montreal, those are cool towns.

You're right. But now Toronto's kind of got a bit of swag. Because we've always been Bay Street. There's nothing cool about Bay Street. That's not cool. No, but I think we're gradually shaking that. It takes a lot of time to trample Toronto the good. That's right. It's been many decades in the making.

Speaking of decades, what a segue. 20 years ago today, we're going to jump in the time machine before we get you to the Toronto Star here. So on this day, this exact, well, this week, 20 years ago, this was the number one song on the Billboard Hot 100. What the hell is this? You'll know it in a second. In fact, let me know when you do get it, actually.

Not your music of choice, but... Oh, J-Lo. I forgot about this one. If You Had My Love by J-Lo was number one 20 years ago this week. It was kind of like Jennifer Lopez's first big English language hit, wasn't it? Dunked on the floor. There's another big one. Yeah, that was after. The one with the training on her in the video.

I just remember that because the teenage me loved that video. I still love the video. I have to admit like probably like yourself i thought i thought she was just an actress and then all of a sudden much music kept playing her new single and i'm like oh she's a pop star too hadn't she played selena like she played a musician in a movie and i don't know if she sang before that but it was like okay now we can pass her off as a pop star and she was in a bunch of stuff like selena and she was an anaconda if i remember correctly and it wasn't anaconda, if I remember correctly.

She was in Anaconda. And when did she do that? An illustrious career. Did she do a movie with George Clooney, I remember, Out of Sight? It was a terrible horror movie, too.

The Cell, was that? No, that was The Cell. Yeah, there was a George Clooney one. Yeah, Out of Sight,

maybe, which were they like some sexual chemistry or something, I'm trying to remember now, but this was a big jam 20 years ago, so.

She's a series or something now. I feel like she's still around. She's with Alex Rodriguez. That's the beauty of the echo chamber, Mike. You just tune this shit out. You wouldn't have to cover, if J-Lo did a big concert

at the Scotiabank Arena, you wouldn't have to cover that. I think I probably reviewed her when I started The Star. I feel like I saw this tour. I've seen so many tours now, I'm fairly certain if I was to go in our archive tomorrow when I'm in the office, I will find like I saw this tour. I've seen so many tours now, I'm fairly certain if I was going to our archive

tomorrow when I'm in the office, I will find that I saw this tour. That was like, I saw some of the first things because when I saw it at the Star, it was like boy band central, right on the pop chart. Oh, like Backstreet Boys?

I've seen the Backstreet Boys seven or eight times. Oh, wow. I even saw them at the Robert Gertin Arena in Hull because they were huge in Quebec. That was where they broke, right? That's where they were times. Oh, wow. I even saw them at the Robert Gertin Arena in Hull because they were huge in Quebec. That was where they broke, right?

That's where they were big in Quebec and Germany. They sold like 300,000 records in Quebec. I distinctly remember that when they were starting to break in America, the thing was that they had already been a big deal in

like Quebec or something. Yeah. Yeah. So even at the Sun, they were an albatross perpetually hung around my neck. When did we stop calling Hull Hull? Like, when did we start calling it Gatno?

Like, was that a PR thing or something? The Hull part of Gatno will always be alternate. There's a Hull in Gatno, okay. Yeah, Gatno was kind of like the nice part of Hull. And then they were like, well, just pretend that... Swallowed it up or something, I think. Yeah, okay. Just never got my Hull and Gatno separate then.

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So long, J-Lo. Did I mention, I think I did briefly, but she's dating A-Rod, Alex Rodriguez. This is the... He's done well with the pop stars. I'm impressed. My girlfriend was once almost gooned by an A-Rod home run. We were sitting in the 200s at Skydome.

And Gail's always terrified that she's going to get hit by a foul ball or a home run. And sure enough, this one came. There were some Yankees fans ahead of us, too. Came straight, and I saw her. She and my friend Mike dove. It hit the chair where she was sitting and bounced back into the outfield. That's how hard it was hit.

And they made the Jumbotron and the CTV broadcast cowering like a couple of sissies. Oh, that's always fun. So that's my A-Rod story. There's more sports in my life. You know what? I get mad. A-Rod, I'm really pissed off at that.

Remember when the pop-up to McDonald? Do you remember the shortstop, McDonald? John McDonald, right? Anyway, there's a pop-up, and A-Rod was going around second, going to third, and A-Rod yells, mine, or something like that. He yells it. He's the base runner. And then John McDonald thinks that the third baseman called him off

or something like that, or second baseman called him off. So John backs off, and then the ball just drops. I'd forgotten about that. Is that not like, if you, let me, as I, if you did that,

I don't know if you played like, even if you played like sportsmanship, yeah, like rec softball or something, let's say rec softball. Cause a lot of us have played rec softball. Okay. If you did that,

you'd get punched out in the parking lot afterwards. There would be a drunken brawl. Yeah. Yeah. And you'd be, you would take, did he not suffer any consequences? I don't remember any consequences. I There would be a drunken brawl. Yeah. Yeah. And you would take your lumps. Did he not suffer any consequences? I don't remember any consequences. I feel like that's a suspension or something.

Nothing. Nothing. Major League Baseball is so corrupt. Yeah, but keep hitting those dongers. Yeah. That's what they say. You want to see more dongers? Do you want the horrible truth or do you want to watch us hit more dingers?

See me slap a few dingers? Right. I'm trying to remember all this. It all comes back to the Simpsons. You're a big Simpsons guy, right? I am a big Simpsons guy, yeah.

I drop a lot of Simpsons references, but now they're all getting fuzzy in my head. The last couple of years, I've finally lapsed because I feel

like... You lasted that long? Oh, yeah. Good for you. I will defend patches. There was a dip when they were writing the movie, and then I feel

like the early 20s seasons, there were some really good ones. But the last couple of years, it's so patches. There was a dip when they were writing the movie and then I feel like the early 20s seasons there were some really good ones. But the last couple years it's so streaky I find it kind

of depressing. It took a lot for me to say about two years ago I was like they should shoot this horse. See I hung on

a long time like longer than most people I felt but I was even gone like 10 years ago I think. I was faithful

I would tune in every Sunday night and it's only in the last couple years when i'm like it's i just i get so upset when it sucks and it and now there's a very good chance it will suck there might be like one good act but then it'll fall apart and i i just i don't like seeing that some sometimes i'd like it to see it go out with some dignity you know no i hear you and it hurts me to say that because i love the simpsons but i collect the first 10 seasons.

I have them on DVD. Oh, I fall asleep to them. I just put on like a play all and I don't even need to like, because I can't tune out the voices in my head. But I just close my eyes. It's like a, but it's like a radio play because I've seen them so many times.

Yeah. So I just put on five episodes. I'm usually out. And it's comforting and soothing, right? Because it's these familiar voices that you've been listening to. Well, you're my age, so I know you've been listening to since you were a teenager. And my little

Polly loves... She wants... She's like, can I watch a Homer? That's what my kids always call it. She's got all my action figures. It's great. I've indoctrinated a two-and-a-half-year-old. I did that, too. I've done that before. Yeah, you've done it, too. And then you're right. They come to you, but they don't call it The Simpsons. Like, my boy right now, I have a five-year-old and he says uh can i watch homer and bart yeah she's like can

we watch a homer yeah i want a homer i've actually speaking of the stark raving dad episode where uh lisa it's your birthday the song you hate uh i have video of my one and a half year old old my oldest when he was one and a half, watching that video from his high chair and singing along to Lisa, It's Your Birthday. So yeah, I've been indoctrinating him too.

With Polly, it's funny. It's all about Homer. Even though she knows all the characters and she'll walk around with Marge and Maggie sometimes, but she tunes out.

When Homer's not on screen, she's not into it anymore, which I respect that. That's great. By the way, I just told you about Fast Time Watch and Jewelry Repair. out when homer's not on screen she's not she's not into it anymore which is i respect that that's great by the way i uh just told you about fast time watch and jewelry repair well milan at fast time his accountant is rupesh kapadia rupesh kapadia man you'd love him you're you're a you're like the rock star reporter man rupesh is the rock star uh accountant he sees beyond the numbers and he's willing to offer you, Ben, and everyone

listening a 15-minute free consultation to discuss anything. He will give you like best practices, key advice on any business decisions or anything to do with accounting or he's a, they're CPAs. So capadilllp.com, there's a link on toront TorontoMic.com. And if you want me to hook up the consultation, just write me an email or DM me on Twitter. Here's a little word from Rupesh. Hey, hey, hey. This is Rupesh here. And today I wanted to call you up

and let you know that we are all going to die. But there is a silver lining. The silver lining is if you are a corporation, you can ask your company to pay the life insurance on your behalf and still get all the money out to your family on a tax-free basis. If you would like to know more, please contact Kapiti LLP, myself, Rupesh, or any of my associates, and we'll be happy to guide you through the process.

Thank you. So thank you, Rupesh. Funnier than your average accountant. Yeah, he's a great conversationalist and he runs marathons. Like you walk, he runs, I bike, we're all doing something. But Rupesh, he's a rockstar accountant. Staying fit, staying trim. He's a good man. He's a good man. Okay. Toronto Star. This is where I first learned about Ben Rayner. I used to read you. I still read you in the Toronto Star. Back when we were both teenagers. We were about 12. I don't know why. I thought you had to be much older than me for me to have read you so long. It's funny. People still

when you were a kid, people would be like, I thought you'd be way older. And even still today, people are like, oh, you're a lot younger than I thought you'd be. Like, really? Because I'm a middle-aged man now. Yeah. We think you've got to be in your 50s. We do the math. Like, okay, so.

So did you replace Peter Howell? Is that how it went? Yeah, Peter went on to movies. Well, Betsy Powell actually replaced Peter. And then the National Post came in around that time. And their big thing was, we're going to hire young people. So the other newspapers were like, maybe we should hire some. I believe at that time, because Craig McInnes,

the former music writer at the Star, was my arts reporting prophet, Carlton. And I think he said the median age at the Star, when he left, was something like 45. Or like the average age or something. So there were so few of us that every so often I think I saw the very first here's a little bit of

to dial it all back yeah I love it because this is what we do in the radio business yeah the podcast business I saw the first ever Raps playoff game

at the ACC because John Hondrick the then publisher who was always really good about getting us into the box at the ACC

brought all the under 30s. There were like nine of us. The under 30s went to see the first Raptors. But the people would come around with like a, this is the day when you have to go and get a photo and then get it scanned. So someone would show up and put like a photo of a goalie on my desk and I'd be like, yeah. And they were like, they said the young fella was looking for that.

And I'm like, Oh, I don't know. It must be the young fella in sports. Oh, that's funny. Yeah. But remind me,

who was our first playoff series against? I can't remember. Cause I remember our first win was against the Knicks, but I can't remember who our first series was against. I cannot remember who the, I'm trying to remember. It's going to bother me. Cause I mean,

it was such a big deal, right? That we were in the playoffs. I can't remember. Let me stop it. It wasn't in Vienna or something like that. Was it Orlando? Was it Orlando?

I feel like it might have been Orlando. I know we lost the series. We definitely lost that game. I think we lost that series quite quickly too. I think we were swept. I don't think we won a thing. That might have been back in the best of five days, I believe,

because we won, yes, because we beat the Knicks in five. And I remember. Yeah, it was, yeah. I think it was three straight we went down. That does not,

yeah, that was right. Well, we were, that was a young team. Hey. Vince Carter never pulled his weight, blah, blah, blah. And I mean, because I know when we beat

the Knicks in five, then we went seven against the 76ers and that's the graduation day where Vince, he graduated that morning and then he played all 48 minutes or something. And then he missed that buzzer beating three. It rimmed out,

but none of that tonight. Oh yeah. No, you know, I was thinking about how wonderful Kawhi has been. And I was thinking that last game that we just lost game five, I felt like that was the only bad game, even though Kawhi had that splurge

where he went nuts for like a minute. He became Michael Jordan or whatever to put us up by six. But other than that little, he was kind of ordinary. I feel like he wouldn't do that twice in a row. Well, I just, the thing that held him back,

I think in the first couple of series was only, would be like one or two guys would kind of like come to play on a night. Yeah. And what's been amazing to watch in the latter stages of the buck series. And this one is that the whole team is functioning. And when,

but now with a team like the nuggets, when one of those guys drops out for a night or even drops out for a quarter, I'm sorry. Yeah. Sorry. The nuggets, the said Nuggets. Yeah, sorry. The Nuggets. The Golden State Nuggets. Close enough, man. Nuggets are a good team.

Yeah. Yeah, they're playing Denver, right? Are you sure you're tuning in? Yeah, yeah. Too much pot? It is. I smoked a joint on the way over here. That's why I walk.

That's why you walk. Because you can't smoke a joint and bike. You've got to walk to do that. I've done it. That's why you walk. I think you can't smoke a joint and bike. You gotta walk to do that. I've, I've done it. It's possible. Um, uh,

yes, the nuggets. There we go. Go nuggets. Uh, but I, I feel like now I guess golden state, they need everybody.

Like they need everybody. That team is like a dynasty team. So if one, there's one chink in the armor, then, you know, the sword gets in. So I, I, I, I've tried tonight. the armor, then the sword gets in.

So tonight, Kawhi, I'll pull it out. I mean, I don't want to do too much more Raptor talk, but I'm so impressed with Fred Van Vliet, for example. Since his kid was born. I love watching him sink threes, too. Because he's like my guy. Him and Lowry are the guys we can relate to. They feel like I can look these guys in the eyes or whatever yeah well now

when I see someone like Gasol walking around out there and he's like a monster among like like very tall people then it hammers home hell's short

but I love that guy Gasol what a pickup that was that was for Valanciunas and Delon Ray he's been on fire this series too man he's incredible I love it

because he gets the ball I know 80% of the time something's gonna happen last thing on the Raptors. So in game five, Pascal Siakam was awful. Like he was,

I thought he was, I felt he was terrible. Again, if one guy has an off night, everything collapses. Right. I can't believe Siakam will be that bad again. So all this,

by the way, because the way we're recording, we got to get this done so we get the kids to pick him up at daycare. Most people listening to our voices, most people listening to our voices now,

it'll be after game six. So this will either be painful to listen to. I'm so sorry. Or quite delightful. Yeah, you can either gloat or, I don't know, crack a Great Lakes and cry in your beer. You're either crying in your beer or you're celebrating with your Great Lakes.

You're still up celebrating. Pretty much. It'll be bananas. Okay, so you mentioned your pal but betsy powell she's still there right she's covering like crime and stuff city hall now like courts she did crime she went from from uh music to crime as as so many do and uh yeah she's city hall now what about uh mitch potter uh still mitch yeah he's still there right well he took off to to israel and washington i mean he was the he was daniel dale before daniel dale and now daniel's leaving us daniel that was the accident the leaked memo right like somebody accidentally uh i've known about that that's that that but you're in the know yeah yeah i was

surprised it took that long to get out. I mean, it was inevitable. He's super talented. He was super talented when he was just like the new kid in the newsroom. He knew, oh Christ,

this one's going to do better. And he puts in the effort, right? Like he's a hard worker. You got to beat him. Yeah, I don't. I'm assuming he doesn't do anything but work, which is how you get that good.

I don't even know what his new gig is. CNN. I don't know what he's doing. Some fact checking at CNN, I think. A little bit of fact checking here. CNN. I don't know what he's doing. Some fact checking at CNN, I think. A little bit of fact checking there. Just in case Trump wins again. Good for him, man.

I'm surprised that didn't happen sooner, to be honest with you. I guess they wanted him for the election, probably. He'll probably be like the guy, one of those guys that can one of the talking heads. Analyzing poll results or something. You know, as these primaries and stuff, he'll be the fact checker for all of them.

The lie counter. Right. Well, good for him. Yeah, good to see him. It's fun having a pathological liar in the White House. It really is kind of entertaining. I mean, it's horrifying, but it's entertaining. And it's funny how the best training for that

was somebody to cover Rob Ford. Yeah, it's just like the level up. Exactly. Like, I don't know who the boss in this video game will be but it's gonna be like terrifying a terrifying opponent it's so true all right uh listener of the show basement dweller wants me to ask you for your take on the increasing lack of music coverage he says at least in print across the daily newspapers uh any thoughts on that mr rainer i honestly, I have a vested interest in it,

but it is, I just, like, what's depressing about the death of print music journalism in general, like, you know, magazines like Spin going online, even Rolling Stone's circulation is shrinking. I just, there's so many, so many of these kind of like staples of of my um i guess music reading i guess when i was growing up or gone and i the thing about that stuff was i loved the knowing a writer and regularly engaging with a writer and

i mean the newspaper like a daily newspaper critic or daily movie critic or daily TV, like the newspaper was the best place or weekly, the best place to regularly engage with somebody. And you use them as a barometer, right? So if I, I know that I hate everything that Ben Rainer likes that I can, I'll read it and get angry,

but you'll read. But it also, if you realize that you have the same taste as somebody, then you'll like, there's certain movie. I don't really watch anything, but you'll read. But also, if you realize that you have the same taste as somebody, then you'll, like there's certain movie, I don't really watch anything but horror movies. I love horror movies.

Interesting. Horror movies are stupid. What's your favorite horror movie of all time? Rosemary's Baby, probably. I love Cabin Fever. I love The Descent. Hereditary is really

fucking good, actually. Have you seen Hereditary yet? I've not. It makes you wait. Oh, man. Okay, let's see. No, I have a, that's my fucking good, actually. Have you seen Hereditary yet? I've not. It makes you wait. Oh, man. Okay, let's see. No, that's my other collection, actually. I have a vast DVD.

Okay, so UFOs and horror movies. And obviously music. That's pretty, yeah. I like cartoons. I'm basically like a... As my long-suffering partner puts it, when I left to my own devices in an empty house, she will come home to Pink Floyd and a layer of blue fog.

I'm basically a stereotype. I think they call that arrested development. I'm not sure. I've got a kid now. It makes you grow up. That's right. That's right. That's right.

Well, congrats on that, by the way. She's named after PJ Harvey. She's pretty rock and roll. Yeah, that's pretty cool. That's pretty cool. I didn't mean to interrupt you there but uh were you in the middle of the uh lamenting there the uh the lack of what it just means you don't have that and also like the what's what's come in to fill the void yeah um in that kind of well once the clickbait era uh came around is just kind of like celebrity gossip and shit. You know, and it's like,

who is Joe Jonas dating? That kind of thing. That's not music journalism. That's not criticism. And I feel like there's an absence of actual serious thought. You can go to Pitchfork or Stereogum or what have you,

but even those guys still have to honor the clickbait, you know, to some extent. Well, I think to tie it to sports, like Kevin McGran from your paper has told me that basically... My former neighbor at the office. Is that right?

He used to sit across from me too. Yeah, he's a good guy. He's a friend of the show. He'll be at the event on June 27th. So he'll be there. Last year, he was the videographer, actually. So Kevin told me straight out that when he's writing a Leaf story,

it's got to be about John Tavares. It's got to be about Tavares. It's got to be be about tavaris it's got to be about matthews it's got to be about nylander or marner because that's all that gets the clicks like clicks is driving content no it's i i mean i don't even get the like i don't get daniel dale level unless i'm i'm every once in a while something will blow up i did a piece on festivals last week that did well but i i i what's not to get too deep into this kind of thing because it's pretty boring but i i think thank you to people who read me because apparently they read to the end and they read again and again and that's so you have these regular engaged readers who actually or whatever they call yeah who actually read instead of just clicking so now

i don't know when like in the now that newspapers are figuring out the data a bit better, they're realizing that clickbait isn't necessarily the way to go because people just glance off it. So I think there's more of a balance. So maybe it'll come back. I can feel like print will even have its vinyl moment. People will be like, wait, newspapers are pretty cool. And there'll be a little bump again.

Well, I mean, you're on a show right now where people who listen to Toronto Mic, they're in it for the deep dive. Like, I mean, you're on a show right now where people who listen to Toronto Mike, they're in it for the deep dive. Like this is, you know, this is... Well, that's the thing about podcasts, right? Like you can go as deep as you want. And I do think, and again, I'm endlessly grateful to the star

because they never really said no to me. And usually, and I, you know, so in this brave new world, to try to to to do stuff that people will actually read while sliding the odd doom squad feature nobody will read um but it's it's i have the latitude i always write long i've always written long and i and the the kind of overriding wisdom in the dawn of the kind of website era was like, no, keep it short, keep it short.

But now they're realizing, now people will, like not stupidly long, like no one's going to read a 6,000 word piece online. Like I couldn't. I would lose my mind trying to read it off my phone.

But you can go a little longer online and actually you can trust your reader's intelligence that they will in fact read it. When I was a kid, but yeah, when I was starting out at journalism, they're like most people don, read it. When I was a kid, but yeah, when I was starting out at journalism, they're like, most people don't read

past the third paragraph, right? So you pound it all into the lead and you're inverting the pyramid. And I think the web era, despite conventional industry wisdom in the beginning being keep it short, is now like, oh, people will actually, people will read it if it's good.

If it's good. That's the key, for sure. You if it's good. If it's good. Yeah. That's the key for sure. You know Michael Barclay, right? Yeah. So he was on, I think he was on shortly after you were supposed to be on the first time. So he was filing, I think 20 years he was filing like record reviews. And I can't even remember the paper anymore. It's like the Guelph-Mercurian or something. And it was just the story kind of amazing actually how he they just they kept whatever uh cutting him a check yeah and

they did their thing with his he kept filing because he kept cutting him a check and then one day like okay your services are no longer required but like he had that thing the editor didn't even know he was still there it was something crazy or like payroll didn't know it was like milton on the. I was about to use that. I think he used it too, I think. But absolutely. So like I was wondering, what are your thoughts on

like the Michael Barclays of the world? Like it seems like there's no room for him anymore in this current newspaper landscape. Honestly, like there's, I'm very lucky to have a full-time gig uh and and with a union behind me um whereas i don't know like i don't i'm i'm not a great freelancer i'm not a go-getter um i don't know how people there was a time when you could do a pretty good i think making a living off music right and you still can i have lots of friends who do it but it's a

do a pretty good i think making a living off music right and you still can i have lots of friends who do it but it's a it's harder and harder to get paid a living wage for your work like i might my i had a friend who was running a off post music spinner for a while and i think they'd think it was aol but they would pay like 50 bucks for like a 500 word post and that's it's a lot of work like you know like sure unless i i'm not someone who's able to just sign off on it i really can't it's everything is a struggle i really work it like and you can tell when i've just signed off on it i think which very rarely happens but like so the amount of month the amount of work that i would put in there like a 500 word post that i don't know how many people would read you know yeah for 50 bucks, would probably be like way,

you know, when you break it down to like, you know, man hours or person hours. Yeah. It's a complete waste of time. And there are still good gigs out there, but there are fewer and further between. And I admire anybody who's coming into the music writing business

because it's got to be daunting. There's not a lot of gigs out there. Speaking of modern digital writing gigs, do you ever read the newsletter 1236? Is this on your radar at all? Okay, so 1236.ca. I'm learning. Mark, if you're listening,

there's a big shout out for you there. Mark Wiseblood does this. Oh, I know Mark. Yeah, so Mark Wiseblood. That's what he's doing now. Okay,. Mark Wiseblood does this. Oh, I know Mark. Yeah, so Mark Wiseblood. That's what he's doing now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. I just forgot the name of it.

Yes, I know Mark. Yeah, 1236. Anyway, he told me a fact about you and I'm now going to find out if it's true because it's amazing if it's true.

But he says, you refuse to listen to any music on the internet until very recently. Is he getting that right or is he, tell me, you know you know you know you're listening to it that seems does that sound like he's mistaking you someone

else i don't like digital i don't like i like vinyl and i like i would prefer the higher bit rate of a cd or the hiss of a cassette over okay so that's a preference but you will listen to music uh via the internet okay and this is not a recent phenomenon that you've decided to start. No. Okay. Mark, don't worry. Mark, I'll edit this all out of the podcast. No, just kidding.

I don't edit anything. No, I don't like the sound of digital podcasts. He might have misunderstood a point about sound quality. Okay, so you don't like the sound, but you do listen. That guy's a hatchet man. Hi, Mark. I miss you. I had a good night with Mark.

I think we watched. Mark is like a big Meatloaf fan. I believe we sat next to each other at the Meatloaf VH1 Storytellers show. I didn't notice about him. And I was like, I hate Meatloaf. And he's like,

really? I love him. But this show was so exhaustively egomaniacal. Like, it was basically Meatloaf would play a song, then talk about how great Meatloaf was. And he's like, well, this album didn't sell so well, but it went to number one in Japan. And this song hit number 27 on Billboard.

And I, like, the three-hour mark, I was like, I got to get out of here. Like, I was like, I got to write this fucking review, and I can't take any more of this. and i i recall even mark conceded defeat he was like no i know this is awful like something like that i still remember the look on his face mark wiseblood is uh at once every month he comes here and we record two and a half hours every single month where it's it's actually it's amazing we just did uh his last appearance at the end of may is that right yeah uh the first hour was it was an ad-free deep dive into the uh the career

of dave bookman right and this is it was just so amazing like so i have all the time in the world for uh for wise i know he's a funny dude i didn't know he liked i didn't know he was into meatloaf i'm gonna play some meatloaf for him next time. God, if I'm remembering Mark in someone else's place, that's even more awesome. How did he give me a pattern? I can remember his like, it was kind of like slumped in his chair like this when he left too. Because even he had conceded defeat at the hands of Meatloaf's ego.

Mark, you can correct me. If that wasn't you, I'm imagining, but I can totally picture you there with me. Phone me, Mark. I'll put you on the air. Mentioning Bookie, though, like it's been a... I was going to ask you about Bookie.

Yeah, you know what? Dave and I didn't really know each other that well. Obviously, I know he was and we had lots of friends in common. And it's like, again, it's that I think those of you who grew up in like the peak era of CFNY and stuff understand better.

Well, it depends what you call the peak. Because every time I suggest that, people will tell me it's the David Marsden Spirit Radio, which is the 80s, mid-80s. Pete and Geats. I just had Geats here. New Music Night introduced me to so many cool bands. And even when I was in Ottawa, it was the holy grail. It's like, we're going to play new music night at the horseshoe day. And I just like,

he was just a, I love a fan and I don't think his enthusiasm ever diminished. And he also wasn't, you know, Dave wasn't like a, out. Well, that's thunder.

Maybe I won't be. I was going to go out to Sam Smith point after the, or like Sam Smith park after this. That was really loud. Like I should just FYI, we'll be okay. Yeah, we're in the basement. The tornado rips the roof off. But this guy I'm pointing to now requires electricity to function.

So if your mic goes dead, you'll hear a pop. And then, yeah, it happened with Bill Brio, speaking of scribes. Okay, continue, sorry. So we have a big thunderstorm here, everybody. What's the new normal. The new abnormal. But it's just the fact that we lost Bookie and Dean Cameron, who used to run EMI Canada

and was running, you know, spearheaded the whole Massey Hall rejuvenation and was a buddy of mine. I lost my friend Daryl weeks earlier in the year he was a publicist who really beloved and uh and uh my buddy bobby gale who was a promo guy like all in the space of a few months and it's it's it's been a it's been a like a rough uh few months for toronto music and i think like the, you know, I think we were all hoping bookie would recover, right?

Like it was good news and the bad news. And it was just like, Oh Christ, really? You know, like here's another one. So please everybody stop dying. But there are like those,

those people were all pillars of like, like lifelong dedicated music fans in it for the right reasons. And I, people make people misunderstand the industry sometimes. I think if you're still with music these days, you tend to be doing it for love. You know what I mean? It's like music writing,

but if you're still working in the Canadian music industry, it's not like a quick ticket to riches. You know, like you're doing it for love of the game, and we need more of those people. Well, they're the only people left. No, no doubt. Yeah, we got to protect Ben Rayner. I think we need to...

Don't walk in these thunderstorms. These thunderstorms stay... I was literally going to go out to the point and Sam Smith-Powell was like, I'm so close. I'll go to the... There's like... Do you still have the Gandhi West?

Like the Gandhi Mother India, the roti place? Is that still it? Yeah, I believe. Yeah, it's really like close to here. After our other place. When I first moved to toronto i lived next to gandhi and then i now i live next or near mother india and i've not yet been to this one because it's never open when i'm out here that was my plan was to maybe get a roti more often man but remember i'm going to get that episode going with you and brunt so i like this and it won't be thunderstorms that day uh listener

tyler campbell who uh he made for those listening he maintains the kick out the jam spreadsheet he I like this. And there won't be thunderstorms that day. Listener, Tyler Campbell, who he made, for those listening, he maintains the Kick Out the Jam spreadsheet. He says, can you ask Ben for an example of a show that he went to with low expectations that pleasantly surprised him? You must get that question a lot. It actually happens all the time.

I'm trying to think of a really good one. A recent one maybe? The first one I remember at the Star and realizing I'd kind of gotten over like you know being a early like you're my punk like punk rock cool right i remember like a i remember a no doubt show at like cool house where i was she came out and did hella good it was like i really liked that album get ready and i and i remember watching that and going fuck why am i denying myself these but? These pleasures.

But that, you know, no doubt were already, they were, I already kind of liked them because spiderwebs and all that shit have been around. Yeah, yeah, tragic kingdom, yeah. One of the first ones I remember being pleasantly surprised at was, remember that band Savage Garden? Of course. Swedish or something. Like, what was, do I do, like.

I want to dance with you. Yeah, there was a, but I remember remember going to that the amphitheater when i just started the star and and going you know what this is okay like why do i hate this stuff so much you know and like it's a process of maturity i think to some extent but like but i but i know that feeling that you this kid rock kid okay so one of the last kid rock shows i said this four or five years ago it It was so good. Can I tell you, I had the same experience.

I was at the Molson Amphitheater to see Kid Rock. In fact, it was a show that heart opened for Kid Rock. No, that was Def Leppard. Hold on. Who opened for Kid Rock? I can't remember.

But I went to a Kid Rock show at the amphitheater and I swear to you, it was the best time. It was the best time. I think the last time I saw it was maybe the Air Canada Center. So it was probably the tour before.

But no, I'm just like, he's like scratching he's rapping you get that stuff that you think it's kind of cheesy but you like it like i'm a cowboy you know you can pull it off and the ball went to ball i don't care what you say and i know it's it's as uncool as saying i like limp biscuits break stuff or whatever i love limp biscuits bring on break stuff i like like $3 Bill Yall because it has the Faith cover. Those first two Limp Bizkit records are somewhat underrated. And they were actually

a lot of fun live at the time. Yeah, I agree with you. He was an obnoxious piece of garbage, but that's part of it. It was like the douche factor kind of elevated. This is another good segue. So I'm with you, by the way.

So Bar With Da Bar, okay? I blast that right now. I'm fucking happy as a pig and shit like i'm going along bar with the body what the fuck is that even like his country stuff is fun i'm totally even that duet with cheryl crow is amazing the picture i got your picture today whatever yeah i'm with you in the country yeah and even i met him too what did you mean the windsor arms one time i went to interview him and he was like cracking his knuckles and i'm like what's what's going on he's like oh i was up all night drinking whiskey and playing the piano in the lobby like oh you're so fucking cool kid rock for sure man he's uh yeah he's had it all man he's had the he's had the uh rap career he's had the hard rock metal career and he's had the country career who else has that and he's he's

coming to that weird roxidus festival too and that's had the country career. Who else has that? And he's coming to that weird Roxodus festival too. That's the only thing that might tempt me to go up to like a, you know, stand around with 20,000 bikers for a day is Kid Rock. No, that'd be cool, man. That'd be cool. By the way, so I didn't,

did you answer? Oh yeah, Savage Garden. That's a good answer. Yeah, it happens all the time though. I'm trying to think of like a reason. I went to Demi Lovato one time and I was like, this is so much more fun. So you come in with the low expectations and you're like that's fucking good stuff i just i honestly come in with no expectations i think that's the way to do it

honestly as a as and i think the only credibility that you have as a music writer especially if you've been around as long as i have is is to be honest. I am happy to take side with something that's completely uncool if I like it. Like Limp Bizkit. I was the Limp Bizkit apologist in the Pages of the Star for a long time. Or Kid Rock. It was amazing.

I'm with you, man. But I remember when I started the Ottawa Song, one of my first music is, they sent me to cover the Ottawa Jazz Festival. I had to file one story a day, and my editor, Brian Gorman, at the time was just like, well, you respond to music, don't you? Because I was like, I don't know anything about jazz. He was like, just go and respond to it.

But I think that's the way to do it. Just put yourself in the audience's situation and kind of... What's happening? Oh, Ben has to go. He tells me he has to go. He's going to change. Since we're talking about... This was one where my expectations

were not defied, actually. Okay, I want to hear that story, but let's give Scott a moment here Hold on You're not breaking out in a rash Or anything over there So tell me Creed were actually as bad

As I thought they were going to be Creed and Imagine Dragons Are up there with like The worst bands I've ever had to see live Where I'm just like I don't get this at all Okay so Now you're going to think I'm really uncool. Not that you thought I was cool,

but I actually did. I saw Creed at an Edge Fest once at Molson Park and I didn't mind at all, but maybe I was in the right mood, I think. I don't know. Who else was on that bill? Was that the tea party? Well, you know, every Edge Fest took turns. Was that their moisture tea party? Yeah, they were interchangeable for a while.

Or Our Lady Peace. No, they had their own festival. Was Perfect Circle on the bill? I'm trying to remember some of the bands. It was Tool. It might have been Tool. Was it Tool? Because they all...

There was one when the Tea Party played long and Tool had to be cut short and I still remember that. It was like, just angered up the blood so much. Like Tool had,

like their set was truncated like 50 minutes because the Tea Party ran 20 or 30 minutes long. That's unacceptable. That's unacceptable. I gotta say though about the Edge Fest

real quick is that they've all blended in my head now because I know with the headliners and I can remember the bands I saw but I don't remember

who was at what show but I know there was a streak of like Hole headline and the rain. That was probably before my time here. Okay.

But it was like 90. It was like Celebrity Skin era. Yeah. I would have been in Ottawa. Oh in Ottawa. We didn't have an Edge Fest like 90. It was like celebrity skin era. Yeah, I would have been in Ottawa. Oh, in Ottawa. We didn't have an Edge Fest in Ottawa.

Another roadside attraction game occasion. Right, that's right. Okay. Anyway, there was a one-year Creed headlined, and then Nickelback, of course, since we're talking about these kind of bands. But Nickelback, I mean, sorry, Creed was terrible. You've reminded me that I saw them twice now,

and I'm not impressed. I did. They were the, well, i don't know it's not my thing but but like you know what the thing about bands like that is they kind of ruined pearl jam i mean pearl jam ruined pearl jam but tell me about that you're the band the band of that era that i think holds up that was lumped in with all them better than any of them is stone temple pilots i think the stone temple pilots catalog aged better than any of this is Stone Temple Pilots. I think the Stone Temple Pilots catalog aged better than any of this. Any of the kind of

stuff. I'm going to disagree on the Pearl Jam thing because I feel like they reinvented themselves and evolved. Like the dead now, right? You think so?

I don't know. Actually, I used to see them every time they came to Toronto, but now I realize it's probably been about seven years. They're a really good live band. I will give them that,

but I just find like, you know, when a new record, it's been years since a new record come to think of it. A long, long time. When was that suicide song?

That's probably a long time ago now, right? Jeremy? No. That was more, was that suicide or murder? It seems like he shoots up the classroom. Not Jeremy. That's from 10, okay? I Was that suicide or murder? I can't remember. It was like an idea where he shoots up the classroom or shoots...

Not Jeremy. That's from 10, okay? I think he shoots himself in front of the class. Okay, I know that. So it's like a school shooting but of one. Right.

Not Jeremy. Worldwide suicide. Oh, yeah. There was a big single hit single, Worldwide Suicide, but we're probably back 10 years. That's like a decade.

Yeah, you're right. But I don't think there's been an album in a long time. Yeah, you're right. You you're right i think it's done some other things or whatever all right i'll bring down your creed for you but i wanted to get thanks for that creed analysis there i didn't play my favorite creed song uh should have been dead on a sunday morning thanks for reminding me of that i thought since you're a father now with arms wide open that's the father the fatherhood song, right? Yeah.

Oh, I need to flip it. Okay, so an act that you, what was it? Okay, an act that you had high expectations for, but sucked. I mean, it happens all the time. I'm a huge Tricky fan, or at least to like the first couple of records in the Nearly God record.

They do a good Public Enemy cover, by the way. Yes, very good Public Enemy cover. and every time i've seen and i every so every few years i'll try again and it's always terrible uh i walked out of the the massive attack at sound academy the last time they played about five but that was partly the venue but it was just like it was not happening for me. People have off nights. You know what I mean? I like, I,

I, that's the thing. I'm perfectly willing to admit that something did not live up to my expectations. As much as I am perfectly willing to own up when something exceeds my expectations. So that's why I'm saying like, I try to go in with no expectations.

It's just like another show. And actually I love going to something like, a 21 pilots like i did a couple weeks ago more or less cold and i'd try not to do any reading or anything like and i'm just going all right what's this all about because that those are the moments when you're like wow pleasantly surprised by how good something is so i i i you know it's it's it's good to keep an appointment you have to keep an open mind you can't do this job if you're no you can't i guess being a dick all the time like trampling on things that critics don't like you know what i mean like there's i i find a lot of stuff that music critics

like flock to like animal collective or yasir and something tremendously irritating you know and there's a pile on some of those bands i i find a lot of that stuff completely unlistenable so like i'd rather listen to Kylie Minogue. See? Interesting. Kylie Minogue. It's been a while. Phil Sounds, that's his handle on Twitter, says,

what does Ben think about artists that use a lot of backing tracks, lip sync in concert, like Paul Stanley is doing with Kiss on the current tour? Does this affect his review of the show? And should artists be allowed to conceal this if it's being billed as a live show i good question as an aging raver uh who is often in a room watching someone well uh you know rock a laptop um there's there's different degrees of this and i think like that 21 pilot show is a good example i'm like

if that was basically like a what the kids call edm show with a drummer and the guy was he was singing the dude was singing but there was everything else was basically canned or run off loops but from the drummer's feet right um but it was still there was still a live component right it wasn't someone pushing a button and And also, I don't think that audience cares, right? If you're Kiss, who are always a terrible live band, like leaden, unprofessional live band, after all those years, not very good players, but yet Kiss is expected to play live

because they move in a live idiom right they're a rock band yeah and paul stanley is supposed to be like a rock suit you know like so i it's contextual i think like you don't go to like you would never ever in a million years uh and i don't know we just mentioned them so i'm thinking of them but go to i mean most rock shows i think all of them i've i've been to but the only show i think i've ever been to where i thought i might hear lip syncing was the selena gomez because i always see rock shows right like you would never go to a pearl jam show and even except for a minute that any of it was uh not live yeah also like crowd expectations right you go to like a like one of these big budget arena shows

like an ariana grande show even lady gaga that's the thing that like the first couple of lady gaga songs you're like there's tours like this girl can sing even the thing. The first couple of Lady Gaga tours, this girl could sing. Even the first big arena tour. And she made a point. I liked it so much. My friend Lisa and I went to see it in Chicago after we saw it in Toronto. I love Lady Gaga too.

That's high praise. But she made a point. She's like, yeah, and I'm really singing. And then the next tour, because the production got even more elaborate, you could tell there were guide vocals on stage. Guide vocals is what they call it, which is different from lip syncing because they sing.

They're just not mic'd up. That's what we talked about earlier. But I feel like for those kind of oversized pop spectacles, the crowd is even accustomed to it, and they're not there necessarily to see the person perform live. They're there to see the costumes. Yeah.

You know what I mean? Like Cher. Cher doesn't sing a note on stage. Cher is just there to change outfits. See, I don't know these things. I did not know that about Cher. I thought she would be singing. No.

But they're too busy. All of them are too busy. Like, unless you... Beyonce is really cool because she's singing and she's out there like hustling her ass off for two and a half hours no like that last beyonce show at the maybe like her last solo one yeah i was blown away it's like that girl is dancing like ankle deep in water

with her two and and still singing every note you're like and i wasn't expecting that i was actually expecting some degree of guide vocals you Sure, your Anna Grande or whatever. Now, there's more from Phil Sounds. He wants to know why you hate Neil Finn in Fleetwood Mac. I don't hate Neil. He says, why does he hate Neil Finn in Fleetwood Mac? Neil is a great talent. Ben's karaoke quote in his recent concert review has gone viral.

Neil and Mike Campbell are sure way better than the, what is it, than the Billy Burnett Rick Vito years. Okay. That's some deep Fleetwood Mac stuff. I'll agree there.

Like, I don't have anything against Neil Finn. Did you call it karaoke? I did, because it felt like he was just there because he sounded

like Lindsey Buckingham, whereas Campbell rolled in and made it his own. Like, he made those guitar parts his own, at least the show I saw, whereas Finn was like, oh, he can do the chain or whatever, and sound like Lindsey. I feel like he was chosen because he could handle it.

Whatever, he's a good singer, and he's a great songwriter. But I thought Campbell kind of rolled into this tour or this lineup, and all of a sudden there was a very distinct change in tone and approach to the guitar parts, which was cool. I felt Finn was more of a karaoke player. That's your opinion. My opinion is not the word of God. When people write me hate mail, I'm always like,

I'm not saying you're a dick. You're wrong. I'm just like, I get paid for my opinions. We're allowed to disagree. It's like the Big Lebowski line, man. That's just like your opinion, man. Okay. So Brian,

he's a big Bruce Springsteen fan. He says, Ben Rayner was in the audience when Bruce Springsteen read the keynote address at the 2012 South by Southwest gathering. Rayner did a nice job reporting on it. Any recollections?

He seemed to have cut Springsteen's music a nice job reporting on it. Any recollections? He seemed to have cut Springsteen's music a little more slack after this. Did he read Bruce's book? My dad is the world's biggest Bruce Springsteen fan. The first cassette I ever taped, I think when I was like eight, dad gave me a tape recorder so I wouldn't touch his record. And the first thing I taped

was Born to Run. And I was actually just listening to the new Bruce album last night, which is alright. It's not great. I figure he's due. Nebraska is one of my favorite albums of all time. I'm not a hater for Bruce Springsteen. But yes, that South By thing was really cool because he brought a guitar.

It's so rock and roll though. He'd be doing his speed. Then he'd break into a song. He'd do a riff from a Buddy Holly tune or something. It was so stagey. You'd watch Dave Grohl or something. They'd just do their speech. With Bruce, it was

such a performance. I know why I'm doing this weird Bruce face. I like your Bruce imitation there. It's like a little Bob Dylan. He had this acoustic guitar and he'd pick it and be like, and it went a little something like this. It was so rock and roll. Oh, there we go. Is this your favorite band of all time?

Yeah. Yeah, I go basically Joy Division, Jesus of Mary Jane, PJ Harvey, Plastic Man, My Bloody Valentine. I'm pretty predictable. But I basically Joy Division Jesus and Mary Jane PJ Harvey Plastic Man My Bloody Valentine I'm pretty predictable but I love Joy Division and have since I was like 11 or 12 years old

which is I know the weird dark kid yeah wow we only ever heard one Joy Division song because 102.1 would play it every time they would roll out like a top 102 songs of all time or whatever but uh amazing so is this your favorite uh joy division song well it's hard to pick a favorite i like interzone this is probably my puzzle would probably mine it's just like this is i i the thing that i love about joy division and i i

you know it's probably like i like i i'm a big fan of art that makes you uncomfortable and i think joy division and so as someone who actually suffers from depression and and so i i joy division had that moment when the movie came out and stuff, Control came out, where they could have been like The Doors and had a revival,

but it's never really happened with Joy Division. There's a lot of bands that sound like Joy Division got bigger, but Joy Division makes you very uncomfortable. It's very uncomfortable.

This album is basically a suicide note. And that closer is like the the you know uh in utero of its time and i just i i don't think anybody's ever been able to capture the atmosphere that they did and it's i mean it's sad another great joy division song yeah no it's well but you know what i mean it's and it's it's sad that somebody somebody, Ian Curtis at the heart of it was so tormented but I think that's why the music resonates so

deeply because you can't fake that and I don't say that everybody should necessarily pursue their art and life to such a sad end but you really feel it in Joy Division and I think that's why if you like it, you really like it

because you like that feeling. Maybe it's the same reason I like horror movies, but I get why my girlfriend can't handle a lot of Joy Division. It makes her very upset. And it scrapes. Yeah, I know. I totally get that. But I totally get your angle there too. What is it? Kurt said there's a comfort in being

sad or whatever. You can kind of tap into something there. I talked about that with matt berners from the national ones we were like we had a great conversation because we both love joy division and he was like people he's like people some people don't understand that for you and me this kind of music can be fun like we can have fun listening to dark music and i i like a lot of really dark music. I saw my, most of my favorite music is very dark, but also I love, you know, I'm trying to think of a good pop.

I love Kylie Minogue. I love Kelly Clarkson. Such a crush on Kelly Clarkson. She's also awesome. I have pictures of Kelly Clarkson's dogs on my phone. Not, not of me with Kelly Clarkson, but with her dogs.

I'm totally with you on this. Like for example, my, of Kelly Clarkson's dogs on my phone. Not of me with Kelly Clarkson, but with her dogs. Or with her dog. I'm totally with you on this. Like, for example, the only Christmas songs I like are the melancholy ones, like the ones that are sad or depressing. Like, I don't want any holly jolly Christmas or whatever.

No, I like... You like the holly jolly Christmas. No, no, I don't. No, I don't. I'm not a Christmas cheer kind of guy. No, I like the sad ones. Interesting, interesting. Interesting, interesting. Ben, interesting.

We're learning a lot about you here. So you, of course, that's Joy Division, but I also have another jam that you love. My favorite song of all time. Well, this is the band that changed everything for me, the Jesus and Mary band. Okay, let's listen a bit and then I want to hear that story. Still get me dead It's hard not to feel ashamed Of the love we live in Games we play Each day

Each day See? Still gives me goosebumps. Still gives me goosebumps. Still gives me goosebumps. My favorite song of all time. I will default to that. I love that song so much. Every time I hear it, it's like the first time I heard it. Tell me how the Jesus and Mary chains changed your life.

When I was, I guess I was 11 when Psycho Candy, the album Heartless Walk is on, came out. And my friend, neighbor, Heather, down the street, we had similar tastes.

She was like, she was three years older. And her, she introduced me to Brave New Waves and she found, and her friend, another Heather,

had a satellite dish so they had access to city limits and stuff on much. So she, she was, she had a line to cool music, and she lent me this album when I was 11, I guess, because it came out when I was 11. I taped it. And this opened up, it was just my moment of like, wow, there's a whole world of music

that you don't see on the pop charts or whatever. I was 11. I feel like I'm justified in that. And it just opened the door on, you know, like UK punk rock and noise rock and all that stuff and led me back to Joy Division and New Order. They were another gateway drug. And I can honestly say this.

If I'd not heard that record, you and I would not be talking right now. I would not be working for the star. Like my whole life would have followed a completely different trajectory. Where would you be right now, do you think? If you looked into your alternate dimension? No idea.

Like I think about that. I certainly wasn't going to stay in Charlotte County and work in the fish packing plant. But no, honestly, by the time I was 12 or 13, I was like, I want to be a music writer. And that's probably all directly traced. If you were to do some kind of Feynman diagram or whatever, it all goes back.

That's the root. And they're still one of my favorite bands. I love them so much. The perfect balance of caustic noise and melody. That tune is just a monster you can't fight that yeah no argument here it sounds great in the headphones too so uh no argument here how amazing now i have one more song so i asked you so i should tell the listeners i said hey ben what's your favorite song and you said the hardest walk so i didn't guess that okay that wasn't a great coincidence and then i added on the Joy Division because I know you're a Joy Division fanatic, of course.

And I knew your favorite Joy Division song was Passover. And I have another song I'm going to play for you. But first, I want to just talk to you briefly about, you were writing about like the CanCon resurgence. Are we going to listen to some Chalk Circle? Oh, you want April Fool? That's the first concert I ever saw was Chalk Circle at the Ontario Place Forum. Do you know what?

They did their first reunion show years ago when I started The Star. Well, not when I started The Star, but a few years. And I think I freaked Chris and Brad out with my fanhood. I think I... I think Chris listens to this podcast. He comes up a lot. I think definitely like... I feel like maybe I was a bit...

Like Mending Wall and The Great Lake. Even like as The Crow Fries, those are fantastic records. Sorry, what were you going to play though? No, not so much I was going to play. I was going to ask you about it because you dropped some names in this article. Like one guy who was here really recently on this show,

Gino Vanelli. By the way, now I'm going to play a little, my little chalk circle. Oh, I love this song. This one I still. This was a big hit. Yeah. It's fantastic. I know, I know. It was a big hit. Yeah. It's fantastic.

I know. It's a big hit for a reason. I know you don't listen to Toronto Mike. You should be listening, but you don't. And that's fine because I play this a lot, okay? I think I played this as recently as the Watchmen episode of Danny Graves. You know what it is? Yeah.

I don't listen to much other than my own programmed music. That's nothing. I dutifully listen because I'm enjoying this. I'm uh like like yeah i don't listen to radio you know what i mean like i never did radio kind of sucks but uh so you never listen to radio or no you must have as before internet you must yeah well no you just listen to your lps like i started buying records when i was like eight so it's like i'm just tuning all that crap out. Okay, format though. Okay, so did you, you started by, before you get back

to 90s gang con. Cassettes, maybe. Cassettes, oh yeah, okay, so did you ever, but then eventually

did you graduate to CDs? Yes, I remember my first CD was Sons of Freedom's Gump. Okay,

yeah. It was at Christmas I got a CD player. Okay. I got that, Pink Floyd's A Collection of Great Dance Songs. Yeah, I'm trying to remember what U2's Octone Baby Christmas I got a CD player. I got that, Pink Floyd's a collection of great dance songs.

I'm trying to remember what U2's Octone Baby. But yes. Sounds about the right era, I think. What, 19, I don't know. I was one of those like I also was the time

when I would kind of half moonlight as a techno DJ. Or at least like spend 16 hours at a time mixing records in my living room, too. So I kept buying vinyl at the time when nobody was buying vinyl. And then, ironically, all the DJs abandoned vinyl and went digital, and everybody started buying rock vinyl again. It's all about balance. But yeah, cassette was my first format. I still love the hiss of cassettes. but he started buying rock vinyl again. It's all about balance.

Cassette was my first format. I still love the hiss of cassettes. I like cassettes. That was forever. I had so many Walkman that never left me. It was all cassettes. I used to make cassette mixes and stuff. I still have a bunch of them.

I have a box of them. I draw my own artwork on all that stuff. I make them for girls too yeah yeah yeah many a lady with those lord knows i didn't have anything else going for me the art of the mixtape has been lost on this generation right like it's not the same a spotify playlist is not the same although i obsess over those to some extent even though it's just me listening to them but it's perfectly sequenced or i'll make one like i i kept when my my little girl was just a baby i yeah i kept a record of songs that would make her when she's like three months old but just like get a response

out of her so i i have this massive playlist and i sequenced it perfectly from like quiet kind of lullaby music to the xx and can't get you out of my head and stuff. All right. This article I read from you fairly recently. It talked about like Maestro Fresh West, for example, friend of the show and Gino Vanelli. And these are all people who have been here and people I grew up listening to. This album was pretty fun. It was like chock-a-block with hits too.

There were like four singles off this track. Wild Horses. Just a motion away. Are you kidding me Horses. Just a Motion Away. Are you kidding me? Yeah. Love Just a Motion Away. And this song, actually, Gino chastised me for wanting to talk too much about Blackheart. It's a badass pop tune, man.

I got no problem with this. Oh, yeah. Well, actually. Well, now that he's an opera singer. So tell me about your conversation of Gino. You talked to Gino, right? Yeah. For that piece.

What did you think of Gino? I was kind of... A lot of the people on that piece, that CanCon piece, was like, you know, like you. We're the same age, as we've discovered. Except I know you're just the cooler stuff than I did. That's a big difference.

I like this tune though. I remember watching it. I would get excited when this came on Video Hits. But I was kind of in awe just because I was like, oh, it's Dino Vanelli on the other. You know what I mean? And I don't often get that. But when it's somebody from my youth. Was it a phoner or in person? Phoner. Yeah, it wasn't quite the same as me. I like meeting people.

But it's I think when it's something that you kind of grew up with, you get a little bit of your flashback of it to being a bit starstruck. Dude, it happens to me all the time. Like, I had Gord Depp in here, and it was like Gord and I now, like, we text or email, and I'm just like

I'm texting. But that's I have those moments sometimes where I'm like, just exchanging texts with, you know. Or like, I got an email from Brad Hopkins from Chalk Circle like, I'm just exchanging texts. Or I got an email from Brad Hopkins from Chalk Circle saying, we got a reunion show coming. I'm like, the 11-year-old me. Okay, dude, I can relate to this so much

because now I, for example, next week Ron Hawkins is going to come here. And I'm now, I'm still, and he's going to play my event, right? I'm not cutting him a check for that. He's coming to play my event for love of the game or whatever. And yeah, it's going to play my event, right? Like I didn't, you know, I'm not cutting him a check for that. Like he's coming to play my event for love of the game or whatever. And yeah, like it's hard to believe

that the same guy that was in my Walkman or Maestro is a good example. Maestro's been here a couple of times, but he came to kick out the jams, which means we played his 10 favorite songs of all time. And he was episode 416. Like that was intentional. You're going to be 416.

And it's kind of like mind blowing to me that, you know, if I text him now, he'll text me back and say, yo, Toronto Mike, what's up? How can I help and it's kind of like mind-blowing to me that you know if i text him now he'll text me back and say yo toronto mike what's up how can i help it's kind of amazing no it's my phone is full of people like who've become buds in the business and and and i also like a lot of my friends have achieved far more success than i thought they were going to back in the day and that's kind of cool too you know sometimes i'm slightly in awe of the fact like when i you know like metric for instance like jimmy and emily were neighbors and pals and uh and you're like i'm sometimes i'm kind of blown away at how well people have done when they're playing the acc or headlining field trip and you're like oh my god

my like and also how good they are like i mean often now all of my my uh my my my friends and and uh longtime acquaintances talents you know like i'm always like you i kind of knew when i remember when leslie feist was in by divine right for instance you know and then like made like a quiet first solo album you know and then all of a sudden she's feist and she's on Sesame Street. And I'm like, this is crazy. Like, I like, you know, to contradict Morrissey, I like it when my friends become successful. Here, I found, I found, so this is okay. This is a guilty, like, this is a good song, right?

It's of its era, but this is a little more Gino just before we get off Gino. No, he did a good run, man. I promised you one more song before I let you go. By the way, I know I said you got a comeback of Stephen Brunt, but at some point if you're in the hood, I completely skipped a huge segment I had planned. I'm often in your hood.

I like Colonel Sam Smith Park a lot. Well, that's fucking close. So, yeah, because what I wanted to do with you was Best Toronto Songs. Because you were part of that article. Who did you write? It was Roger E. Mudder. I would have a hard time picking one. Forget what I said.

I think I might have picked a Chalk Circle tune. It might have been April Fool. I had to look up that article. I joked that it would be chalk circles april fool but maybe i went to bat for that one but there was a like it was a top 50 that you published 100 top 100 right so i mean we got i mean that's a whole that's a whole episode unto itself like so the cam con research is that the geno and maestro okay because we got to do the best toronto song article and then here's the song I wanted to play for you before we...

Oh, you got to take a picture. I don't even care if it's pouring rain out there. I heard the thunder. We still got to take a picture in this spot. So I hope you're okay if getting soaking wet.

So here's a song I pulled just for you. If you see me when I'm feeling down I don't know if I want you around I don't want you around I don't want you around I don't want you around I don't want you around I don't want you around I don't really like any of your friends

What does this song make you think of when you hear it? I told you this story. When Polly was brought home from the hospital, three or four days old, and you've been through it four times, there was a horrific day of nonstop crying. But then, you know, things get marginally easier. And I would play Courtney Barnett's. David, like, I i would just play music and i would hold her because she was little and i would

i would dance in front of my turntables and just like go back and forth like putting on record got very good at changing records with one hand with a baby because she's only that big right and this song david uh by courtney barnett was i don't know what it was she was like honestly like three or four days old and it and this went on for months it would calm her down and i would and that the next whatever the next tune on the the ep is would play and she'd and i would just sit there putting the needle back on this and my partner was like this is insane and she would play it for her on like her ipad or iphone when i wasn't i wasn't around and i even tried like an experiment because it's basically like the same riff as the gene genie

by david bowie and the gene genie didn't work it was specific maybe it's something about corny barnett but even when she was little it was like hard blues riffs really it would calm her down i have no idea what that is because neither neither Gail nor I are particularly, you know, blues-minded. So yeah, I would sit there, literally, like, I'd put this song, putting the needle back, putting the needle back four or five times to put her to sleep.

And I would play David by Courtney Barnett. Like, you realize forever, ever, and ever, when you hear this song, you're going to be taken back to when your baby was... No, it's actually making me tear up a little bit. That was my hopes. No, but it was insane. I was just like, oh, my God, my daughter likes music.

It was like, of course she's going to hate PJ Harvey for a while, probably. She'll either love or hate PJ Harvey. But yeah, it was uncanny. And I remember one day when I was at work or maybe i'd gone to south by or something and my my partner gail was like oh my god i tried i tried the corny barnett song and it works i know and there were a couple others it was like a song by the xx and i have a playlist that i of of poly songs that i play but that yeah it was it was crazy the x it was the xx but corny barnett was more than anything. There you go. Parenting 101.

You can start your own parenting podcast. Ben Rayner's Parenting Podcast. Tips from the Pro. Ben, thanks for finally doing this. That was a great pleasure. I don't know. It didn't feel like two hours, but I would go longer,

but I got to pick up my kids at daycare. I also have to pick up my kids at daycare. We'll get you back here, but that was amazing. Thanks so much, man. Anytime, man. That was really fun. And that brings us

to the end of our 476th show. You can follow me on Twitter. I'm at Toronto Mike. Ben, you're at I hate Ben Rayner. So on Twitter, he's at I hate Ben Rayner.

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And your smile is fine.