Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - Ben Rayner: Toronto Mike'd #739

Episode Date: October 20, 2020

Mike chats with Ben about his contributions to the release of the new Gord Downie album, The Chesterfield, Liisa Ladouceur, and ten more jams Ben loves.

Welcome to episode 739 of Toronto Mic'd, a weekly podcast about anything and everything. Proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, a fiercely independent craft brewery who believes in supporting communities, good times and brewing amazing beer. Pumpkins After Dark, save 10% with the promo code miked. M-I-K-E-D. CDN Technologies, your outsourced IT department. StickerU.com. Create custom stickers, labels, tattoos, and decals for your home and your business. And Palma Pasta. Enjoy the taste of fresh homemade Italian pasta and entrees from Palma Pasta in Mississauga and Oakville. I'm Mike from torontomike.com and joining me for his third visit to the backyard studio

is Ben fucking Rayner. Hello. It's really fancy back here now. I can see my breath, but it's fancy back here. So since you've been gone, since you've been gone, there's a light. Did we have the light last time? I don't. I feel like no.

We were just sitting out here in the dark. And there's a heater, but I don't think it'll get to you. Right now I'm kind of hogging it. That's all right. I layered up. You layered up. And what else is different? but I don't think it'll get to you. Right now, I'm kind of hogging it. That's all right. I layered up. You layered up. And what else is different? That's it, right?

Oh, the tarp. I'm not down there on the ground being lorded over by you. You weren't on the ground last time. I was on the ground, wasn't I?

The first time. Is this your third time? Yeah. I feel like I was on the ground both times. Oh, I thought so. Oh, so you treat me. I get the ground.

Everybody else gets this table. You've been promoted here. Okay. So just remember, you've got to be right in front of the ground. Everybody else gets this table. You've been promoted here. Okay. So just remember, you've got to be right in front of the mic. Do you want to bring down? Yeah, I'll bring it down. You know me.

I move. I fidget. Okay, good. Get it down there. It's my nervous energy. Okay. So many things I want to say to you, Ben Rayner, but first and foremost, welcome back. It's good to see you.

It is good. It's good to see you, man. It's nice to be back. I was looking forward to this. I always have a good time. Could I trade here? I'm going to spark up a jam. Is that what you can do?

So I'm going to spark up a jam, and then can I trade you the burst for the haze mama? Like if I came over, I could swap it over because I like the burst. Okay, hold on. I'm going to try this pumpkin thing. I'm going to try a Great Lakes pumpkin ale. Oh, yeah. I'm going to try a Great Lakes pumpkin ale.

Oh, yeah. Well, we don't have any problem keeping the beer cold out here. All right, so I'll just put this in the background. It's a bit of a... I don't have Ben from Michael Jackson, but I have some Ben Harper. This is Ben Harper and Eddie Vedder. Because you look like Eddie Vedder, and you have the name Ben, and This is Ben Harper and Eddie Vedder. Because you look like Eddie Vedder, and you have the name Ben, and this is...

Did I tell you? I think I messaged you. These guys screeched to a halt on one of the main streets in Hamilton. Not James, whatever goes east-west. And the guy went down his window and went, Dude! Oh, no, it was Holy Shit, Dude.

You look just like Eddie Vedder. See, I'm not the only one who sees it. That's like validation here. But this is some indifference. And you would enjoy it. For the background. So you cracked open the pumpkin ale from Great Lakes Brewery. That's quite nice.

It's a good outdoor. I like that pumpkin ale because it's subtle pumpkin. Like it's not too much pumpkin. It's like a subtle pumpkin. Yeah. And I, you know, I tend to go on the hoppier end, but this is good for this time of year. You have two haze mamas in front of you,

like super hoppy. I'm going to crack open a burst. This is also an IPA. Those are pretty good too. The thing is, if I get into the IPA after three, I'm useless. Especially those haze mamas. What's the percent on those?

Grab one and read it. I don't know. I don't have a light or a heater over here. It's a lot. It's a lot. It's like 7.3 or something like that. For some reason, that one part is not illuminating. It's seven.

Great. Good thing I'm not driving. A little indifference in the background here. A little taste. Hold on here. Ben Rayner and Eddie Vedder. I won't be alone Won't you see life's silence

For soon that will be gone I will stand as I stand Pretend I'm free to roam Oh, I will make my way Through one more day We're going to be kicking a lot of jams tonight, but I need a big update on your life. I feel like so much has happened since you were last here.

You seem to be doing lots of different things. I'm presenting the illusion of being busy. Okay, well, let's break that down. Last time I was here, I had stuff going on, but I couldn't talk about it. And now I've done all that stuff, and all that stuff is out. I'm going to just guess. One of the things is the Jake Gold stuff.

You couldn't talk. You were doing that. I'll ask the question from Jason Cole. stuff is out but so let me i'm gonna just guess one of the things is the jake gold stuff like you couldn't talk you were doing that uh well i'll ask the question from jason cole he goes how did you get pegged to write the liner essay for gourd's latest album so you wrote the essay for gourd downey's latest album and you did something at the alma combo i need to like understand all of this. I'm now listening. What have you been up to with Gord Downie there? Gord's sadly no longer with us

but with his new music. Three years almost to the day actually. Cheers. To Gord, man. I'm telling you. I recorded something on the one year anniversary and it came up in my Facebook as a memory for Gord and then I stumbled upon something I recorded something on the one-year anniversary, and it came up in my Facebook as a memory for Gord, and then I stumbled upon something I recorded the morning he passed away.

I recorded something in the basement where I'm weeping to Tragically Hip songs, and I listened to it the other day, and it hit me really hard. Like, oh, my God. Man, I miss that guy. Yeah, yeah. I think the world is a lot poorer for not having him around. But that record, A Way Is Mine, it's really good. And I, like, it was like, it's basically the last thing,

it's the last thing he did, and I guess how I came on board was what Jake called me, Jake Gold, who's a bud, and good to me. In an FOTM. He was like, well, the story of this album is, is insane. He's like, cause it was like the circumstances under which it was made. It was very close to the end of his life and,

and still kind of defying the odds and, and surviving brain cancer. I think longer than like a year or longer, I think. And they gave him, I had to give him a year. It was about a year and a half. Yeah.

Maybe. Yeah. Um, but yeah, just, uh, I'm pulling it together one last time and getting his friends to do it. It was about a year and a half. Yeah, maybe. Yeah. Um, but yeah, just, uh, I'm pulling it together one last time and getting his friends to do it. Anyway,

it was, it's a, it's a really good, it is a good story. And they were like, he had this idea that we do old school liner notes like you would on, uh, you know,

back, back in the day, you look on the back of your Frank Sinatra records and you read about, uh, Tommy Dorsey orchestra or whatever. Um, and it was, yeah, so it was a cool idea and, and arts and crafts went for it so i wanted to do and it didn't really like i knew i was doing it i had

the record and it became real the longer that i lived with the record and i was like holy shit like it's i mean it's you know in a very small way um you are going to be associated with like this last gordonny album and it would that's when that's when fear took hold uh i was like i was like yeah that's really cool and then i the gravity of the situation set in and i nearly had a nervous breakdown but it was good like i know no i mean i think they wanted 2 000 words and i at one but it was good. Oh, no. No, I mean, I think they wanted 2,000 words. And at one point it was like 8,800 words. And I was still on full-time dad duty, basically. I probably hadn't gone back to preschool yet.

So it was like from 10, it was actually sort of like the way I'd work a lot when I was at the Star. Right. And the way that eventually drove me a bit batty from lack of sleep. But like, you know, 10 until 5 or 6

I was like, oh, I gotta... But you gotta do a good job, right? It's Gordon Downey and that's a fairly high standard of writing to live up to.

You know what I mean? Sure. Like you look at Phantom Power or something like that and it's a very good writer. So, yeah, it was really cool

and then I wound up hosting the series, again, through Jake, the SiriusXM track by track exclusive premiere for North America last Friday it's amazing like that's amazing you're the guy yeah it was really cool

I feel weird lately because I haven't like when once the I told myself I'd have I gave myself like six months to be a dad. Right. We've talked about this. Yeah. Um, and I was like, okay, and then I'm going to start hustling in September. But all of this stuff has kept happening.

So I've been very busy and now I feel guilty that I haven't been like hustling hard since September, but I've actually been too busy to hustle. So it's, it's worked out. Okay. It's, it's, it's, uh, but it's the whole Danny thing, it's fucking crazy. I don't... When I got the... Jake gave me the vinyl on Wednesday when we taped the thing at the Elmo.

The fancy new Elmo. Which looked just like... I saw all the drawings and everything all along and they nailed it. I thought you were going to say it looks like this backyard studio. They spent a few more bucks than I did. It doesn't have the rustic charm of your backyard studio.

The potential for an actual fire out there. Whoa, you said fire. Hold on. Just to let the Tragically Hip fans and Gord Downie fans know, I'm not finished peppering Ben for more info on this, but I did bring some

fire jams real quick here. So I know you might set a fire, so I'll just put in the background some live Jimi Hendrix. Because you never know, Ben might set a fire. I actually went down a bit of a Hendrix rabbit hole the other night. We're on the same page again. Well, it's the first song I think

of when I think of fire is this. Okay, so Jake Gold, who FOTM, a very good friend of mine. He's buds with my friend Hebsey. Oh, hey. Mark Hebsey, yeah. So Jake Old hooks you up with this new album. This is kind of a surprise for all of us Gordownie fans that this even exists, that we're getting it.

It is the last. I think there might be some other stuff in the kitty that was sort of like half. I think he did some recording with some other people here and there, but this is the, this is the, this is the, away of the mind is the last thing. It was like,

and if you, I got to know Josh Finlayson from Sky Diggers who co-wrote the record and love Sky Diggers, Gord's brother, younger brother, Pat, Patrick, doing this.

Cause we sat in Josh, Josh's backyard, drinking beer and smoking weed and talking about Gord for a couple of long nights. Like, we spent three good long nights together. You got to record those convos, man. You should have called me in. I would have come in and recorded it. There is a...

I don't know. I'm a big Skydigger. I love the Skydiggers. I'm always tooting their horn. I've had Annie Mays on the show, but I haven't had Josh on the show. But I love Skydiggers. Well, no, it's good. It was cool getting to know them,

but Pat said, and he was, I think the quote, I think it's in the booklet. Yeah. Yeah, that was the thing that made it real was getting the booklet the other day. Wow, that's really cool. He said, I think the quote is that right after that, like almost to the day they got back to Toronto,

Gord went irretrievably downhill, right? He just couldn't. That's the thing. Those guys are really open and sweet with me. I don't think they talked about it a lot. It was actually quite, it was like a couple of emotional moments. Sure.

And talking about that, but you don't realize what he was up against just in terms of doing that tour. If you've seen the doc, but just in terms of like it, the, the, the, what he was up against just in, you know, just in terms of doing that tour. And you, we see if he's seen the doc, but just in terms of memory and brain function and, and being able to move around and stuff. And it's,

it's pretty nuts. And then I guess right after this is, is when it is, is when it started to go, you know, you started to lose, you lost those abilities. So it's,

it is the last, the last thing he did. And it's, it's really good. And it's, I mean, it's a hard go. Have you listened to it? last thing he did. And it's really good. I mean, it's a hard go. Have you listened to it? No, I know. It's pretty head on.

And there's two versions of everything, right? There's like the acoustic and then the electronic version of everything. Yeah. And it's actually the same track. So they recorded them, Josh and Gord, acoustically with Niall Spencer

at the bathhouse in Kingston. And he would sometimes in real time uh, Gord, uh, acoustically with Niall Spencer at the bathhouse in Kingston. And he would sometimes in real time, uh, mess with the, he could basically had like carte blanche to do what he wanted with it and would just completely alter them sometimes in the moment. So Josh just asked for the acoustic one. I love the acoustic ones.

I, I, I, and actually I listened to them. I, I went against Jake's advice. Sorry, Jake. And, uh, and, and back to me. I went against Jake's advice. Sorry, Jake. And back to me,

because he was like, listen to the electric versions first. But I spent more time with the acoustic ones in the beginning, and I am totally with Josh Finlayson that it was wise to keep them. And it's cool, but they're exactly the same recordings

that have just been messed with. Interesting. So what exactly was the... So Sirius XM, they have a station called The Verge and there was like a track by track

like thing you hosted basically. It was you at the Elma Combo. It's you, it's Gord's brother Patrick and it's Josh Finlayson and you guys

are just going track by track talking about the songs. Yeah, I mean, we talked about all this stuff before, so it was easy to do. Sure. Like, I'd never,

I was shitting bricks for a couple days. Like, again, it was like, oh, I got to host a radio show on Wednesday. And I was like, well, I've never. In a high profile, like there's a lot of years on you. Yeah, and I was just, well, you've never done that

before. Maybe you should prepare for this. So I spent a couple of days panicking and then like knocked out not even really a script because we talked about all this stuff. So I the night before, finally, I calmed myself down and wrote some notes.

It was super easy. We taped it. It was one take, though. I think I once I was like, can we redo the intro? I like doing this stuff. It's so much more fun to print. There's so many people that could have chosen to do that.

You got the tap on the shoulder. I think that speaks to the credibility you have and the respect you have in this industry. It's crazy. Jake's line is, I believe in Ben Rainer. And I, I appreciate it. He's fucking right.

Honestly, he's right. He picked the right guy. He's a, he's a, he's been really good to me lately. And it came at the right time. Cause,

um, it was like out of the blue, sorta when I was like early August, maybe. Uh, well, clearly, clearly,

right. Uh, Jay gold heard you on Toronto Mic and said, this guy, this is my guy. Clearly, this is my guy. We took Jake and I a long time to meet. We finally met at some Manitoba music thing in Winnipeg. And for some reason, we had never actually like,

man, this is not that long ago either. And we kind of became fast buds. So anyway, I was starting to think about september and i was like oh my god i'm like i'm gonna be spending my days with my kid and i was starting to get panicky and then of course it's like the phone rings and it's text i just called you i just called you it's call me it's important and i but then he and the but he was uh yeah he's like i want you to do this i was like, you know, you could have called him Rob Bowman or something. Well, there's a lot of guys.

You could have just got Strombo or something, right? There's a lot of guys you could have got, but you got the right guy. Ben fucking Rainer. All right. So, again, I played Fire by Jimi Hendrix. And, again, soon we're going to get to the actual Ben Rainer jams. I like the cult. Electric is one of my favorite albums.

Sonic Temple, not quite as good. Here's Fire Woman for you. Ben, tell me, what's the Chesterfield? I was just going to say I met Ian Asprey in Austin at South Fire a few years ago. It was pretty cool. I had no idea he had ties to Hamilton. Yeah, I think Weisblatt told me that.

Yeah, Weisblatt told me that. He was like both his parents got cancer working in Hamilton. I was like, wow. Oh no. Anyway, on that note continuing our cancer discussion. Tell. I was like, wow. Oh, no. Yeah. Anyway, that's it. On that note, continuing our cancer discussion. Tell me about the Chesterfield. So right around the same time that all this was happening, one of my best friends, Lisa Ladiser, who works for... You know, I invited her on.

She told me. I think you guys have some... Yeah, and she's one of my best friends, but I'm very fond of her. I did read the entry in question. I think it's pretty tame. That's all I'm going to say, but please tell me. I've gotten a lot worse. I can't remember what you wrote.

I took umbrage with something she wrote about the tragically hit and Pearl Jam. Oh, was it? I thought it was Pearl Jam. It was both of them. I've had so much hate mail over the past 21 years. But I was surprised because I just invited her on. I said, hey, I dropped a couple of names. I said, Ben's been over.

Cameron Carpenter's been over. I dropped a couple of names she knows. And she knew who it was. And she goes, yeah, you're the guy who wrote this entry and called me Laughable Lisa Ladd the sewer. Okay, Laughable. That's as bad as it got. I did put that in the title, which I've deleted

since. I took out Laughable because I've grown up a lot. One of my earliest editors, Brian Gorman, at the Ottawa Sun was always like, every once in a while, he'd let a cheap because he told me he's just like, I don't like cheap shots. Sometimes I would be like radio personality

quote. He was like, I shouldn't have left that in. You know what I mean? And I get it sometimes because I think as a critic, hey, you do have to be able to take criticism. Trust me, I've been called a lot worse than laughable. Well, if Lisa's listening, and I did tell her, I wrote her back and I said,

I've removed the word laughable from the title. Like, it's gone. But I read the back and I said, I've removed the word laughable from the title. Like it's gone. But I read the entry and really it was at that moment, it's how I felt. And I just was quoting her. She said things about Pearl Jam that I thought were unfair. And she also had said something right just before that on CBC's 50 Tracks or something about the tragically hip. I didn't think it was fair. So I just wrote this piece.

This is what I do on Toronto Mic. Like I didn't write for the Toronto Star. I wrote for Toronto Mic. There were no editors or anything. And I wrote this. And this is a hundred years ago. It's over a decade ago. And she mentioned it and then I forgot I had wrote it and I read it. So that entry I wrote

whatever, 12 years ago or whatever, has come back to haunt me because I don't think she's coming on Toronto Mic because I wrote that entry. I'll tell you, man, this country, it's small enough that that person, I think I might have said this on here before, you'll run into that person whose band you just fucking trashed. Like you will. Right.

I remember, this is, I mean, I'm as guilty as anybody. I was hanging out with Gavin Brown, who's produced like the Billy Talent records and the Metrix fantasies and stuff in Winnipeg. Actually, this is the second Winnipeg story. At the, I think of the Junos or something. Yes, because Ralph James had reunited with Harlequin for a show. So we were at the club, and it was past last call. And I was talking to Gavin, and I was like,

oh, I'm sorry about that. He's like, yeah, I read the review you did of the Thornley record I produced, or whatever. And I was like, oh, man, I'm sorry. He's like, no, no, it's cool. Like, he was totally, he's like, it's cool that, you know, I didn't do my job to make you people like you. Like, you know, it was really cool.

And we're buds. And it was after last call, though, and we got on to the Thornley tour bus to ride their cooler he's like no come on it's okay Gavin doesn't drink anymore but he's like no no I'll get you some beers so I have my two hands like wrist deep

in ice pulling bottles out of Thornley's cooler when he and Thornley walks out of the back of the bus and I don't think I'd even reviewed the album. I think it was just like a passing reference. It was something mean. Again, like probably a cheap shot.

And we have people in common, and he's well-liked, and it's like, that's fine. We'd probably get along. But I looked at Gavin, and I went, does he? And he was like, oh, yes. And I was like, okay, I'm getting out of here. What did it take to be here? It was just this immediate moment of understanding. Does he?

Oh, he knows. I think it was, does he? Oh, he knows. All right. Get the fuck out of Dodge. He's a big guy, too. I'm a puny little stick man. He and Thornton could beat the

crap out of me. I don't pick fights either for similar reasons. Earlier today, Joe Siddle, I don't know if you watch any baseball on Sportsnet. I wore the Giants hat. I see that. The Dodgers and Rays, but I see you got the Giants hat. Joe Siddle was over here.

He was just telling me, yeah, he's criticized baseball players, and he has to be on the bus with these guys, and he sees them in the dugout. He's had a couple of instances he told me about where players are like, I take umbrage of what you said here. They call him out for things he said. Same deal. You're going to bump

into these guys at some point. It's like with hate mail. I always try to write back, unless it's really vicious, like, I will wait for you in the parking lot and slash your throat. And I've had a few of those. Oh, my God.

Yeah. Yanni fans and Guns N' Roses fans run about neck and neck for really... So, okay. So, I formally, and I wrote her back, and I said...

Well, you know what? Maybe I'll drag her. I want to apologize to Lisa Lettuce for, like, if you come on together, only because that one entry, some guy in his stupid blog 12 years ago who

didn't like what she wrote, I think it was in the Toronto Sun or something, I can't remember, but what she wrote about the Pearl Jam show plus what she said about Tragically

Hip on CBC Radio. Like, just, I spelled her name right. Like, I had all my quotes right. You know what? I'll bring you two together.

I'll broker a truce. Okay, broker the truce. We're quite a good comedy duo, actually, she and I. I want you guys on together. We'll take this shit over. Before it snows, I want you guys on.

Just a little, because you look like Eddie Vedder, just a little Pearl Jam in the background. Some Oceans from 10. Kind of one of the few songs from 10 that hasn't been overplayed everywhere. I know, man. It's hard. It's hard to listen to those records now. Well, yeah, it's tough to go put on, especially like a Jeremy or something.

But here, Oceans is still cool. So tell me, please continue telling me about the Chesterfield. So yeah, right after this Downey thing happened, and again, I was like, what am I going to do? I got a hustle. I'm unemployed.

My kid is leaving me my she called and was like we'd been talking she'd been telling me she wanted to do this this show

and it was a cool idea about where Canadian artists talk about a piece of Canadian art that means a lot to them which is very simple but very like a real piece

like art when you say whatever okay okay like you could talk about a Fred Penner thing yeah okay David Blackwood painting right you know what Like a real piece? Whatever. Okay, okay. Like you could talk about a book you like. Like the Fred Penner thing. Yeah, okay.

With David Blackwood painting, right? You know what? Yeah, you can talk about a record. You can talk about a comic book or a TV show. I want someone to talk about the movie Pin, the Canadian horror movie. Still looking. We got George Strombolophilus to talk about. I suggested Hilarious House of Feinstein,

and we kind of tried to reverse engineer a few of those. And it turns out Strombo's a fan, so we bonded over that. Oh, that's cool. I've known that man for 20, whatever, 22 years, and we'd never revealed our dark, hilarious House of Frightenstein secret. Billy Van love, of course. That's an institution for guys our age. There's a Billy Van museum.

I heard about that, yes. We're going. Anyway, yeah, so she called and was like, one day I said, I have a very short list of people I'd like to host this. Do you want to talk to my boss? And I was like, the next morning it hit me. Is this like a job

interview? I was kind of unkempt and just sitting in bed. And it worked out. It's me and Iskway hosting this show. We did a bunch of Zoom interviews with people like Fred Penner and Jan Arden, Alanis Abumzou and the documentary film we get, Maypair's next week. I talked to Chris Murphy from Sloan about Rush.

Oh, that's cool. Max and the Arkells talking about the Constantine. Surprise, the Constantine. Surprise, the Arkells. How long areantine. Surprise. The Constantine. Surprise. How long are these episodes? 20, 20, 20. I mean, there's longer versions. As you might know, because I host this show, that shit's right up my alley, man. Like, you're right on my fucking turf, Rainer.

Get out of here. They were super fun to do. And I think people like to talk about stuff that's not like their new album. people like to talk about stuff that's not like their new album or, you know, the, you know, they're, they're out of that,

they're out of that album or movie cycle or whatever, you know, that kind of, you're doing the same interview all day, every day. Yeah. That's, that's what,

yeah, I think artists, I think like sports, people want to talk music and music. People would like to talk sports or something like that. That's, I think sometimes that's how it breaks. Well,

I hear myself do it even, even when I'm doing interviews with students or the odd thing for someone calls me to comment on a story for CBC or the radio or something. I hear myself saying the same things. I can't imagine doing 10 15-minute phoners a day for three days in New York. Then we're going to fly to London and you can do some face-to-faces and 10 more 15-minute phoners.

It must really grind you down. So I think everybody had fun doing it and they turned out... I could tell she was happy. Lisa? Yeah. Again, she is one of my closest friends, my dearest friends.

I'm very grateful to her for giving me a shot on this thing. Wait, who's your co-host? Iskwe. Was she from London? She's like a wicked electro-pop. She's an indigenous singer. She's super cool. I only learned of her existence when I saw you promote

the Chesterfield. She's very cool. Kind of a 360 degree artist. She's got the fashion thing nailed. She knows what she's doing. You know what I mean? She should be bigger than she is. And I think it'll come.

Okay. Well, this is a big start because a lot of the Ben Rayner faithful. And I got a shout out one who just tweeted at us. I want to get her name right. Heathen. That's her name. Dartmouth Diva. Oh, that's my friend Heather.

Okay, Heather. Okay. That's like one. Dartmouth Diva. Oh, that's my friend Heather. Okay, Heather. Okay. That's like one of my oldest friends on the planet. Maybe my oldest friend. Not oldest physically, but oldest in terms of our friendship, Heather. You're not old. I am a Ben fangirl. I thought we got to shout her out.

She's watching us now in Periscope. I think we talked about the Jesus and Mary chain. That's the Heather who lent me Psycho Candy. There you go. And we've closed the loop. I love it. I think we talked about the Jesus and Mary chain. That's the Heather who lent me Psycho Candy. There you go. And we've closed the loop. I love it. I absolutely love it here. Okay, so the Chesterfield is a project you're co-hosting with Iskway.

Yep. And you've done all this work of Jake Gold, but he's got you on speed dial. He might need more of your services. Is there anything in the hopper you can tease? I have to think about this though i actually have a bunch of work i gotta do some freelance stuff i gotta clear out in fact i realized on the way over here that i'd forgotten to send my buddy charles at northern transmissions a story

that he desperately wants um but yeah so i just that some some fun stuff like that and just some for hire writing and i I got to, yeah, I got to figure it out, man. I got, I have another thing that I haven't had time to work on that I think could be fun.

And I have, I have some friends who want to do it with me and we might have something fun. But I, it's like very early stages because I've been too busy to think about it. But your daughter's back at school? She's good?

Yes. It was weird. Actually, the day we did the Sad Dad, soft-hearted van moment, we did the promo shoot, like the shot of video promo for the Chesterfield with Nicholas Kleiman, who was the way cool director. Made an awesome horror documentary called Why Horror? And he's working on it. That was

actually really cool. Again, endlessly grateful to my friend Lisa for roping me into this because it was cool being in that room on the September 9th, which was the day Polly went back to preschool. And i'd had six months basically all day every day with that kid right roaming around the city and i would have been

completely heartbroken so we were in that room and i was like it was like with a bunch of creative people doing something cool but i offered to walk this guy's dog kina i think her name is um and i realized that we were hanging out by the one of the murals that I used to take her to. And it was like this. And we first got back from a month up north in April. And I was just roaming the empty city with my little apocalypse companion. And I realized we were by this bug mural up towards Earl's Court Park. And I just burst into tears.

And then I got it out. But, again, it was so good because I went right into like about three weeks of solid work you distracted yourself with these projects yeah yeah it was good and then the

the Gord thing came back around and this hosting thing came up and I just I got to host an Elliot Brute CD release party online too

that was pretty fun I'm enjoying I'm enjoying the talking and not the writing I enjoy like living precariously through you so keep it up. I just watch on Twitter and I go,

look at the cool shit Ben's doing. He's at the Elmo talking about Gord Downie's album of these cool cats, and he's hosting this thing of his coin. He's talking to Fred Penner about art. You're doing some cool shit. Charlie. Again, it's the illusion of being busy because everything's already done.

Perception is reality, Ben. I've been telling you. Those will trickle out for the next, I think we're only on episode three. There's 12, so peopleception is reality, Ben. I've been telling you. No, those will trickle out for the next, like, I think we're only on episode three. There's 12, so people will think I'm working. And it's a good title

because that's the most Canadian thing. Chesterfield, right? That's like our thing. Okay. Charlie says he's a reader of your work. Reader of Ben's work. No, sorry. I'm reading this wrong.

I'm sorry, Charlie. Readers of Ben's work know about his obsessions with APTBS Ah yes Dog Day and Joy Division Three of the best bands ever

Name another artist that is a lesser known obsession A lesser known obsession I guess PJ Harvey's kind of out there because my daughter's named Polly Right

Lesser known I love Kylie Minogue but I don't think that's actually less known I'm pretty open about pretty open about my Kylie Minogue fan I don't think that's actually less known I'm pretty open about pretty open about my Kylie Minogue

fanhood hold on I have to turn that off it's gonna be I don't know where that just give me a moment here to find out where that's coming from

oh it's this is a pro operation it's my daughter Michelle is hang out in me so let me close my gmail so she can't

that's funny okay oh are you neglecting your daughter to talk to me please dad hang out with me so let me close my gmail so she can't that's funny okay oh are you neglecting your daughter to talk to me that was a please dad hang out with me that video calls for really she wants to talk to her little sister i think that was a very dark window into your life but she's like i'm recording michelle but she's gonna be here tomorrow anyway so okay sorry please continue that's very unprofessional of me. I wouldn't have done that with Joe Sittle.

Okay, so that's a good answer. Well, at least you put me on the deck this time and not on the ground. That's how I am. I thought you were up here last time. I'm going to go to the video evidence. I have the video evidence.

Maybe. I usually, I usually, well, I'm usually a little high when I show up. Well, someone's getting high right now. Do you smell it? Has it made its way to you?

It is. It smells nice. It's my main man, Kareem, next door. I have a nice, I have a very nice Romulan. You were supposed to blaze it last time, weren't you? Well, maybe by the end of this. I had another 20 milligram going on the way. Kareem's doing something here.

I can smell it here. It smells nice. Every time I record at night, I get that. My neighborhood is just insane today. I actually tweeted but i realized that there's a vacant there's one strip i was like i live around dundas and ozington there's one strip there like a queen just west of west of ozington now where there's a weed shop and then an empty space and then a weed shop and a weed shop and then like on the next block a weed shop, and a weed shop. And then on the next block, a weed shop, a weed shop, and a weed shop.

And I'm just convinced soon it's all going to be... It's like a mall. It used to be like Starbucks. Now it'll be weed shops. That's funny. Everyone's getting high, Ben. That's the age we live in now.

I've still only bought legal weed once or twice. I'm supporting my... I want to support the old school good no i like that support the old school guy when i get caught out it's not only when i get caught out that's the only time i'll resort to legally gv gv says does ben play any musical instruments or does he write songs i yeah my dad is a music teacher so i can fake it on a lot of instruments i grew up playing guitar and i could play a little bit of piano and i played the trumpet and uh i could fake it on the drums a little bit and yeah my dad we had a house full of instruments growing up so my like omnicords

and fun stuff too like keyboards and drum machines and drum machines. Yeah, it was pretty, it's actually really, I kind of want my kid to have that and I need to get on that now that she's a bit older, but I didn't realize what a privilege it was to have access to all that because dad would just bring gear home,

already taking it to band. You know, we just had like everything. You want to play on a French horn for a while, but everything, like there'd be a tuba in the hallway. That's cool. Yeah, it was pretty rad. And I mean, I've said it before, I'm the product of biological determinism to some extent, because my mom is a reporter and my dad is a music retired music.

You didn't have a say in the matter, I don't think. It was going to go one way or another. Engineered. Okay. Laura T. Laura T., I'm going to ask you a question, but come on. What are you doing in Mike's backyard at night? That is the question from Laura T Laura T I'm going to ask you a question but come on what are you doing in Mike's backyard at night

that is the question from Laura T but be straight up what are you doing in my backyard at night is what Laura wants to know what am I not doing

in Mike's backyard at night I wrote back it's the place to be like where's a better place to be and I'm soon I just want to tease it

I'm going to get to the jams very soon I just got a few more questions. Mark wants to know, okay, you wrote for the Toronto Star forever. How many years? Almost 22 years, 21 and a half years. Mark wants to know, what are your thoughts about the Rosie uprising? So apparently there's this uprising against Rosie DiManno in the newsroom.

I am not privy to all the information because I don't work there anymore. But I could see where they're coming from. I've been on the wrong end of an all editorial email from Rosie. I've got the bite back before. You still have a copy of that email? Yeah. I want to read it.

No, but, you know, it's like you're engaged. I don't know anything about it really, but if the whole newsroom signed it, I know all those people, so I suspect I probably would have been in with the gang because it seems like an overwhelming majority agreed with what was going on. Yeah, I don't know.

I don't know. I don't work there anymore. I still haven't been in to pick up my stuff because of this fucking pandemic. My wife sent me to One Young Street earlier this week. She had to pick something up at work and she works at One Young. She just gives me her card and sends me in to get it like i got i got an email saying you should come and get your stuff

and it's not most of it's just like books i don't really care i'll get it and i'll deliver it to you just just let them know that you give me permission to take it well they said they might send someone around um but yeah like it's just i have some pictures of my kid and and some like odds and like a there's a brian jonestown massacre tambourine I got at the Elmo in 1998. Things like that. Some Kool-Aid. There's some cool stuff there. Now that's going to be gone.

That's going to be stripped. People used to rip off. When people used to send us DVDs and CDs and stuff, it would almost never get through to us. People would always rip off our mail. I still remember that. It was so embarrassing calling out publicists and saying, I never got that.

I never got the book. It was like a dark secret in our newsroom, man. People ripped us off, like me, Betsy Powell, V-Wag, all the music writers. We got robbed blind all the time. You cheap bastards. DJ Dream Doctor wants to know, what's your favorite music release of 2020 so far?

I'm going to sound very predictable here, but I do love the new Dog Day album. It's really good. I'm trying to think what else. That's the one that stands out for me. I actually really like the Downey record too. The thing I got stuck on, the one that I came

a bit late to that I still can't get enough of is that last Cherry Glazer record. And it was sort of like the Cherry Glazer album before it where it took me about a year and now I'm like, this is amazing.

And I, so I've been like abusing that LP for months now, like since the turn of the year. I think she's amazing. What's her name? Clementine Creavy? She's like the PJ Harvey around dry, precocious, 19

year old weirdo. I think she's maybe 22 now, 21. I remember she made the rounds at South by one year and I was like, who is this? Just a weird messed up kid. But she's got that same vibe. She reminds me of a young PJ Harvey somewhere.

Oh, cool, cool. Okay, this question, you've got to kind of think on this one. It's kind of a tough one. But this one's from me. This question came out of a combo I had with Ralph Ben-Murgy. And I'll just ask the question, and then you can decide how you're going to answer it. If this is a question about Ralph Ben-Murray,

I'm opening an IPA. Everything, if you think about it long enough, everything is kind of about Ralph Ben-Murray. I'm about Ralph Ben-Murray. Is James B. famous? I don't, yeah. How did you arrive? Is this like one of those, like if a tree falls in the forest

does anyone what is the sound of one hand just supposed to clear my mind for meditation this was a private I should point out it was a private conversation

Ralph and I were having and he said something to the effect of James B. isn't famous and I kind of locally notorious

okay maybe and then kind of this conversation. And again, it's not exactly an exact science, obviously. Right.

Cause what is fame? I see famous to me. Right. Uh, but like if you took a hundred random Torontonians and you asked them who James B was, like how many would know who James B is? I don't know.

Like, so what is fame? And then, and then what is your, and what demo and what niche like maybe the jazz audience is all about James because of his jazz FM work

or something and how many people are there is he on jazz FM he spent years on jazz FM yeah so you know him

as a like from the look people is that where you know James no I remember he was sort of I met him when he was one of the first people I interviewed

I think when I'm like during the swing revival the swing revival well that era it's funny He was sort of, I met him when he was one of the first people I interviewed, I think, when I started as a star. During the Swing revival? Well, that era, it's funny. They were playing that terrible Joe Jackson swing, jump, dive, and wail or whatever. Maybe it looks like it. Maybe it was Randy Bachman. It was on in the kitchen last night.

It's the guy from Stray Cats, isn't it? No, that's Brian Setzer. But that era, right? Like Colin James did one, but that was also like the Cherry Poppin' Daddies. Yeah, yeah, yeah't it? No, that's Brian Setzer. That era, right? Like, Colin James did one, but that was also like the Cherry Poppin' Daddies. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Voodoo, yeah.

They were just wretched. Well, Swingers came out. It was just, we were remembering, Gail and I, my partner and I were talking about it. I was just like,

that was, what the fuck was that? That was like a bunch of maybe rich kids in Manhattan and they got written about and it became a thing. It was just like all these bands got signed. And James B. was right in there, though.

Yeah, but he was doing the cocktail thing up here. Yeah, absolutely. Even Stereolab got lumped in with that for a while. I know that there was a guy named... They were okay, actually. I'll give you combustible Edison. Richard Cheese, do you remember? He was doing covers of like modern rock jams.

He would like the down of the sickness or some Rage Against the Machine killing name. And he would do lounge covers. And he had the song Lounge Against the Machine. Do you remember any of this, Richard Cheese? No, I don't. I'll go dig up some Richard Cheese. It's pretty good.

Okay, so that question though, that's sort of like, it's kind of a philosophical question that I only pose to certain people. Is James B famous? Because it really gets you thinking about what is fame? Like, it's a very interesting question. I only pose to certain people. Is James B. famous? Because it really gets you thinking about what is fame? It's a very interesting question. I don't know.

There's no wrong answer. It's funny. Seems to me when I met him he showed me he had like a I'd have to look at the copy because I don't want to make this up. But my memory is pretty good.

It's a fairly photographic memory. But I feel like he talked a lot about famous people he'd met. And I think he had like a little photo, like a little photo album. You know, not pocket size. Like with Polaroids or something? Just pictures of him with famous. I feel like he showed me that. So I think he, maybe he wanted to be famous. But I don't know. I mean, he's locally notorious. I would say he's locally that. So I think he, maybe he wanted to be famous,

but I don't know. I mean, he's locally notorious. I would say he's locally notorious. Yes. He's a Toronto character. Yeah, he's a neat, again, I like a good weirdo. Dial in people know who he is.

Like if you're kind of, if you're a pulse of the zeitgeist, you kind of know who he is. I know of a certain age, maybe. Well, he was the zeitgeist at a certain time, right? Like we all were. I think he played Lollapalooza. I feel like, did zeitgeist at a certain time, right? Like, we all were. I think he played Lollapalooza.

I feel like, did Look People play Lollapalooza? Well, yeah, because he caught the cocktail thing. That's when I... Pre-cocktail,

kind of like that punky kind of... Yeah, well, who else was doing it? Big Root Jake was doing it here. There was a legit kind of weird...

That's before my time in Ottawa, or in Toronto. I was in Ottawa. Right, right, okay. So you can doodle that. We had Johnny Vegas, I believe. That was our lounge guy.

We had Johnny Davenport or something. But you can ask your wife the James B question and just let me know. She's asking herself right now. But we were. It's funny. I was going off about how awful that period was and what a made-up thing it was. I'm just like, this isn't a phenomenon. This is a made-up thing.

Yeah, I really do think the movie Swingers played a big role. I like the movie. Yeah, I liked it when we all did. Yeah, that movie was good. Jon Favreau. I'm on team Vaughn. I enjoy Vince Vaughn. Although I remember, I think it was Jeff Bevere,

the movie writer at the start at the time. Because he's like, the movie's funny. He's like, but I think it was jeff bevere the the movie writer at the start of the time because he's like the movie's funny he's like but i've i think it was swingers he's like i've never wanted a character in a movie to die more than i wanted vince vaughn to die in swingers and that movie which is great but it's got the nhl nintendo nhl scene which was like cut out of my life or whatever trying to you know make his head bleed or whatever so okay so we. So we're going to kick out these jams. You gave me a long list a long time ago. Oh, we got lots of jams.

We got jams to kick out for years. I don't even remember what I gave you. No, that's kind of what I'm excited about because I'm going to play the jam and it's going to surprise you because you gave me this list a long time ago. We've been drinking Great Lakes. Enjoy.

That's courtesy of Great Lakes Brewery. What am I having right now? Hayes Mama. Hayes Mama. It's pretty good. Yeah, a couple more of those. Yes, I would. If you weren't... I usually walk home from here. Mama. Hayes Mama, it's pretty good. Yeah, a couple more of those, and yes, if you weren't... I usually walk home from here.

If you were walking home, I would make you, because it would not allow you to drive. I wind up walking out here, thank you, TTC. Like, I got to Mimico one time. Actually, I'll tell a lie. I tell a lie.

I got one around St. Joe's, and it stopped at fucking Humber Loop. Oh, that's the worst. And it's like, this streetcar will be stopping for 10 minutes. So I got out again, and then walked to Mimico, and I was like, well, I got the pass. And then I like, this streetcar will be stopping for 10 minutes. So I got out again and then walked to Mimico and I was like,

well, I got the pass. And then I realized it was at First Street and you're on 8th. Well, that's not supposed to dox me like that. We'll edit that in post. Yeah.

That's been a secret I've kept for 738 episodes. I always get the number wrong anyway. I really do. It's like a mental wall. And you got it wrong that time too because I'm not there. Okay.

So we're going to kick out these jams. Thank you to Great Lakes. I still got it wrong that time too because I'm not there. Okay. So we're going to kick out these jams. Thank you to Great Lakes. I still got it wrong on the way down, by the way. Sorry. Palm of Pasta. That's why I'm outside. I went to another.

I went to another. Stop telling me addresses there, Ben. You're cut off over there. No more beer for you. Palm of Pasta, authentic Italian food. I know you've enjoyed a couple of lasagnas yourself

and you've come back for more because it's delicious. You'll love your Palmma Pasta lasagna. They are actually pretty good. Pretty good? Yeah, they're fucking great. What are you talking about? It is way better than like a President's Choice slab.

Oh, yeah, way better than that. You're never getting that President's Choice sponsorship. Now I am making it. That's mine. I wouldn't accept it. I have an exclusivity agreement for Palma Pasta. StickerU.com. That partnership's been most excellent.

And if you're looking for stickers or decals or badges or temporary tattoos, StickerU.com, good Toronto company. I'm actually, you know, of course you do. Say, Mike, I have a little girl into stickers. Do you know where she might get some stickers? You go to StickerU.com, you upload the image, you can get a, you know, it safely will arrive in your mail, a variety of quantities and styles,

and she can thank me later because she'd love it. Okay, so Elvira. So this is October. Halloween's coming. Elvira. Barb Paluskowicz is going to dress up as Elvira for a webinar on Thursday at noon. And I'm co-hosting this thing.

And if you go to CDN Technologies and you go to like resources and webinars and you register, which is free, at noon Thursday, you can watch me interview Elvira. It's not really Elvira. It's Barb. But she's going to wear the Elvira dress and wig and she's going to act like she's Elvira. And I honestly think, you know, grab a Great Lakes beer and enjoy the show. Okay. This would be fantastic.

Elvira, Mistress of Cleavage. Wasn't that always the joke? Yeah. Except they're calling this the Dark Web Mistress, I think is what they're calling this Elvira here. And of course, pumpkinsafterdark.com. Get your tickets now while you can and save 10% with the promo code Miked.

M-I-K-E-D. Thank you, Pumpkins After Dark. It's our second year together. It's coming to an end shortly and I'm going to miss you guys. So get your tickets, F-O-T-M's, and remember Miked will save you 10%. Ben, you ready to kick out more jams?

Yeah, man. Again, I don't remember anything I sent you. I sent you like 35. Right. We did like 10 last time. Give me another 35. Cynhyrchu'r ffynion Cynhyrchu'r ffynion Cynhyrchu'r ffynion Cynhyrchu'r ffynion Cynhyrchu'r ffynion

Cynhyrchu'r ffynion Cynhyrchu'r ffynion Dwi ddim yn gallu gweld Ychydig ddau Ychydig ddau Dwi'n gallu gweld Ychydig ddau Ychydig ddau Ychydig ddau Ychydig ddau Ychydig ddau

Ychydig ddau Ychydig ddau Ychydig ddau Ychydig ddau Who makes this track? I think there's lyrics in there. Alan Mulder, I think. He's like, the guitars need to be louder. Bring up the travel.

Push down those vocals. Okay, so, tell me about My Bloody Valentine. Feed me with your kiss. That's like, that was kind of, there was a couple of

single EPs, I guess, on the way to Isn't Anything which contrary to popular opinion is the best My Bloody Valentine album not Loveless I love Isn't Anything it's just like

it's the same it's the same thing I think we played Eric's Trip last time didn't we but I love Eric's Trip who were basically trying to do Motherly Valentine on a four track in Moncton

but I just like the sheer caustic like insanity of these mixes but also the fact that they're really

sweet pop songs and it's a sexy record isn't it they're quite some of them are pretty filthy. But it's like... And also this track. It's at the end here. They keep adding a bar on the fade out.

It's just they add a... Louder. I'm getting snotty over here. I'm freezing. Do you want me to... You want it? I'm going to take and move it. No, I'm getting snotty over here. Freezing. Do you want me to... You want it? I'm going to take and move it. No, I'm good.

Okay. Just let me know if you want it. Don't bogey that backyard heater, Mike. No, it's at the end anyway. At the end of the track. Okay, just let me know when you want to jack up here. No, that isn't anything. It's my...

Like, I love Loveless, too. Even the one they made after whatever it was. Their Chinese democracy a few years ago was pretty good but I like Isn't Anything and this was on one of the two EPs in between their early sort of formative

more gothy stuff on the way to Isn't Anything and this was sort of like the tune that just kicked the door and was like nope we've become like you know they came into their own. I love it when a band comes into its own. You have those moments like, you know, you look at a discography sometimes it takes a couple, you know.

It took OK Computer or, you know, or The Bends. But this is the moment when My Bloody Valentine just became like a life-changing band and a band that would change music. See it, I'll keep adding it.

I'm the son of a music teacher. I like time signature. Fuckery. They do it a few times, but I like a tricky time signature change every so often. Okay, Ben, in your notes to me, which you sent me a long, long, long time ago, you would have a song versus another song. Okay, so here's a song versus another song. Let's play the first song first. It must be the colors

And the kids That keep me alive Cause the music alive cause the music is boring me to death it must just be the colors and the kids that keep me alive. Cause I want to go right away to January 9 I'm already tearing up.

That's what this does to me. I think I probably told you that, you bastard. You put it on the list, Ben. I had an old friend He was someone I could learn from Someone I could become Will you meet me down on a sandy beach? We can roll up our jeans So the tide won't get us below the knees

Listen, if you're not comfortable talking right now... Oh, no, it's late time. It makes me tear up. And that's why I have... I think even my own... I think even my own... Like, my girlfriend has done that to me. I had a rumor they'd be like,

you want to see Ben cry and they'd play this song. And I, I think Gail has done it to me more. I don't know if you can tell on the video. I'm telling you,

your eyes are leaking. I don't know, it makes like, that tune makes me, I think that is maybe the saddest song ever. Like, there's,

you know, I'm a huge Joy Division fan and those songs are sad in a, a different way. Like, Elliot Smith songs are sad in a different way. Like, Elliot Smith is almost sad in a different way. There's like a weird, I mean, those are people who killed themselves, and there's like a bit of a violence to it, I find sometimes,

as delicate as even Elliot Smith would be. You listen to Roman Candle or something, and there's like an edge to it. Right. There's like an edge to it. Right. Sean Marshall, Cat Power is just, I think, maybe. If PJ Harvey is the best UK songwriter of her generation, I would say Cat Power is America's best.

She is the best of her generation. And she has an almost too real and exquisite sadness about her. You know what I mean? And it's disturbing. Like, I've seen her break down. Like, I've been at some of those shows where there's been freak outs and stuff. And I don't like that people, as a depression sufferer, I don't like that if Canada became sport, it was like, how messed up is she going to be? But I met her finally last year, well, maybe two years ago.

I went backstage to the Danforth before her show on the last record. I finally got to meet Sean, and it was fucking awesome. We had tequila and hung out. But she's like, I love beautiful weirdos. tequila and hung out and but she's like i love i love beautiful weirdos and i say this with all all respect as a you know a weird a weird kid uh still in my mid-40s but she was just a really pure spirit and uh and i think it comes through in all her music i like it's and it's she's also been quite diligently moving forward throughout her career. No two records really sound the same. But this, Moonpix, she did this one with the Dirty Three,

and it's the best one. It's just crushing. Crushing. Yeah, but that song always makes me cry. cry Is boring me to death It must just be the colors And it must just be the kiss That keep me alive On this January night Yellow hair

You are a funny bear Yellow hair You are such a funny bear He's got a raccoon in the house. She's got a raccoon in the house But not literally in the house Not in the house Okay, so what does the verses mean When you put Cat Power versus So I can't get through the first Julian Baker album

Without blubbering That was my point I thought I told you Your notes were very subtle. It just said verses. Okay. The only person who's come close to Sean Marshall cat power for me

as a singer-songwriter of that ilk, I guess, in recent years is Julian Baker who is just utterly amazing. Well, we're going to listen in. I just want to shout out Michael Barclay because Michael Barclay is listening and he says,

look, people did indeed play Lollapalooza and drummer Great Bob Scott shoved a peach up his ass on stage. Yes. I had to read about it I see you fast sleep, I pierce my skin Needles to the worn out rags The folds in my arms are sickening black And I haven't been taking my meds

Lock all the cameras, send me to bed. So now you're still worried. I'm gonna get scared. Cause I'm alone again. And I don't like the things I see. It's the callback. And I haven't been taking my meds. It comes back hard.

You have to pay attention to that one. Yeah. I love Julianne Baker. She, I think, is the inheritor to Cat Power. I think she's... This album, Sprained Ankle, is just bonkers. But I... I haven't been taking my meds. So lock all the cabinets and send me to bed.

I know you're still worried. I'm gonna get scared again. And make my insides clean. The kitchen bleach would have kissed enough bathroom sinks to make you realize i was inviting you back here to make you cry all night here it's a beautiful night sky you're weeping is it okay i can't do that there's another one on that record where she talks it's like i sleep on the park benches i've been like because i'm scared to go home, and it's my birthday, and it's,

but it's, she was, she's again, she's super young, I think she made this, like she's, in this, I can't even imagine,

she's, she's grew up, in a super religious family, in like a Georgia, in Atlanta I think, like queer, like a queer, like serious Christian, that's a hard think. Like queer, like a queer, like serious Christian.

That's a hard go in the South. And I reckon she had like, I think she had like some drug problems and stuff at a very early age. Like young, young. Do I hear a sermon in the background? Is that a broadcast? Yeah, there's a religious, some kind of. Oh, she's like, and she's, she a you know i i i think still a devout christian like and i i love the three-dimensionality of it because there's a lot of struggling with shit and it's it's very real that record that like i think this basically that song is about

locking your kid in because you're worried she's going to overdose or kill her. You know, it's and I feel like there's a very deep level of like autobiographical content to that first record. But the second one's, oh my God, live too. Ben, are you at all a religious man? No, I was raised godless. My mom goes to church. I think it's more of a social thing for mom. No, I'm not a religious man. Although I'm into theoretical physics.

I mean, you go far enough into that. I don't think that counts. You get far enough into that, it starts getting pretty weird. Is your daughter baptized? God, no. No, I know she got like a lot of the, the rest of the, the relatives back home in Newfoundland probably,

I'm going to piss them all off right now. Not on my watch, but, um, yeah, I think, you know, the Simpsons when they steal the Simpson kids.

I was like, Oh yeah, yeah, of course. Of course. I would joke that they'd steal Polly. And I say this with all fondness because they're lovely people, but there was definitely a,

because she had a cousin born right after her, and there was definitely a push to have him baptized. But mercifully, we're all godless people. Same here, brother. You're safe here. There's a 0 for 4 here. But I'm awesome. That's why I love people.

Someone like Julian Baker, he became a bud. Jay Agnes, she was part of the Aaron Riches who was with Royal City here. It's cool. Yeah, it's like I like people who are able to talk about

Christianity intelligently in music because it's all open for debate. I'm going to stop singing. Alright, I'm going to stop crying. I dream the strangest pictures I have seen. Night in the air, twilight's gone away. With your head held high and your scarlet eyes, you came down to me from the open skies. It's either real or it's a dream.

There's nothing that is in between. Twilight. I only meant to stay alive Twilight I gave you time To stay alive Away from me Oh my god, I love that song.

I was going to say, now for something different. Thank you for cheering me up. I'm just going to get maudlin. It's the IPA and the Julian Baker. All right, so tell me the story. Jumping Mimico Creek in the way. I'm sorry. Are you swimming?

When was the last time? You can't swim in this water. I swam. It's funny. I was out with my friend Boyd a couple of Fridays ago. There was that last kind of warm weekend. There was one, yeah, right. Polly and I went.

We were going to go to the island and I was going to get one last swim because we were talking about it. It felt like the last day when you're on vacation in Mexico. It's like, I better get one more swim in. Right. And we got to the ferry docks

and for the first time in my 22 years in Toronto, there was a sign up that said, ferry tickets sold out, which I'd never seen. I was just crushed because I knew it was the last day. So you rented a kayak? No, and you know what? All of a sudden, the water taxis were charging $10 for kids

too. I was like, fuck you. I'm like, I'm not doing this, you bastards. But we had an awesome day just exploring all the new stuff down around German Commons or whatever it just exploring all the new stuff down around German Commons or whatever it is. All the new stuff on the waterfront. It's cool. There's a cool playground. Wait, wait, are you talking about

Trillium Park? Where are you? No, we went the other way. We went east. The H2O Park? Beyond H2O. When you get the new stuff down beyond the chorus building. There's like a really cool kind of post-modern playground. I haven't explored it at all because I've just done bike trail. I haven't actually.

There's a skating rink down there. That's awesome. But she was on board. Oh, is that the Bentway? No, no. It's further east. East. East.

Okay. So you get to Portland. I need to know because, you know, once I get. Towards like Cabbage Town as you go on the waterfront. Okay. Towards Cherry. I haven't been there in a while, honestly. You should go down there.

I go to the Don Valley Trail. Yeah, the Don Valley Trail. And then I head north from there in a while I go to Don Valley the Valley Trail there's so much cool stuff the playgrounds are awesome it's cool stuff for old potheads to look at while their daughters play it's nice no country for old potheads

anyway so I didn't get I had a swim on the Friday or something at Ontario Place, and it felt like the last time, and I was hoping I'd get one more in on that weekend. And I was robbed, because these handmade signs, ferry tickets sold out my ass. I was not busy

down there. I'm gonna sue the city. No, alright. Anyway, yes, ELO, Twilight. Time is the best ELO album, the concept album about time travel. I remember my dad bringing that home, and it has like Cylon voices and stuff on it. It's so good.

Oh, that one's good. Yours is truly 29.5. It cut out. This is a real pro-operation day. You can have your heater back. I feel like my guests come first. Did you feel like my tears are going to turn into icicles?

I said, the man's crying in your backyard. He looks cold. Put some heat on him. Can you feel the heat? It's actually quite nice. I'll keep it there. It's okay. You can have it back if you're going to freeze up over there. I'll let you know. Right now we're okay. How late do you think I'm going to be able to go into the season here?

How late do you think I'm going to be able to go in the backyard here? Maybe you were guessing. I know you can't predict the future. Can you legally have a fire pit back here? If you could safely do a fire pit back here, you've got my blessings. There's this spider tree here in the middle. Where would the fire pit go? One of those little... We're not going to build a bonfire.

No, take down the entire neighborhood. Take down New Toronto. Goodbye, Lakeshore Village. There it goes. I told you that my... You have my blessing to do whatever. No, I feel like we should do one Out in the snow one night I'm just gonna figure out

How to keep warm I'll do it I sit out by myself A yurt All night at the fires And it's like 124 An igloo

Like what do we do Yeah Okay Let's talk about this The Toronto Mike Igloo Are you gonna bring No Lisa Lattisuer Does wanna come in

The freezing cold She used to sit around fires With me when it's been pretty cold Cause you're You are gonna bring her here Cause I wanna look her in the eyes And tell her I'm sorry For calling her laughing You know what She used to sit around fires with me. It's been pretty cool. Because you are going to bring her here. Because I want to look her in the eyes and tell her I'm sorry for calling her laughing. You know what? I think she would accept your apology.

I'm sincere, too. I have no ill will against Lisa. I have always respected her. I follow her on Twitter. I can tell this troubles you. It does because she doesn't want to come over because I wrote 12 years ago. And again, she is one of my dearest friends, and I am exceedingly fond of you. I feel like I can broker a truth.

Okay, thank you, Mr. Better. I'm like Jared Kushner. Oh, no, don't say that. Okay, Royal City, Spicy Basement. Spicy Basement, we just met. That's funny. I didn't even know I put this on the... See?

There was like a method to my madness, even. Like, whatever, three in the morning when I sent you 35 songs Three months ago That Aaron Richards who I just mentioned This is a great This lineup I can't remember who else Lonnie James played drums I saw them play this

In one of the tent On the river At Hillside that year when this album uh what's the second record called um i'm blanking that's the ipa uh anyway when this record came out and that band that four piece was playing in it's not at rush hour the cars it's the one after um uh they were playing in that little one You can swim out behind it Although you wouldn't have swum in this set It was probably, when people ask me

Like what was your favorite show you've ever seen I think of that performance Just like a side stage performance in a tent at Hillside Royal City, doing this song in particular On that Royal City on doing this song in particular on that. We used to record in my spacey basement. Not anymore. I like your spacey basement.

One day we'll be back. It's funny too. My friend Lisa Moran, who was half of Three Gut Records with my other friend Tyler Clugbart, they ran Three Gut, which had Jim Guthrie, the Constantine's back in the day, put out the Royal City record. Lisa and I have talked about this, and I often say,

when people ask me my favorite show, I think of that Royal City set, and she's like, I think of that. I'm paraphrasing. Sure. But Lisa, she's like, you know what,

I think about that show too'm paraphrasing. Sure. But Lisa, she's like, you know what I think about that show too. And that's fucking crazy. But that's how good that show was. Just like the semi-acoustic. Yeah, amazing. They're a great band, man. I miss them. This part's got a bit of Neil Young-ish going on here, right?

Well, there's always some Neil in the background in anything I like. Ha ha ha ha. Oh. Was this a versus? Versus? You did another versus, yes. Yeah, I feel it. I know. Be constructive You did another versus, yes. Yeah, I feel it. I know.

I know how my brain works. What does it mean in this context? Royal City Spacey Basement versus Radiohead Dollars and Cents. When people ask me what was the favorite show you ever saw, I remember seeing Radiohead on the Amnesiac tour at Molson Park. I was there, brother. I was there.

This timed, and you've heard the live versions of Amnesiac are fucking crazy. This at that pink sunset with those pink lights. I was there with my friend Sean Stanley and we couldn't do anything. We just smoked a joint at the right time, too. I hope I don't get him fired.

It's not like he's a TTC driver. There's got to be a statute of limitations on that. But at just the right, and the sun was setting, and you knew they had set it. It was like when I saw Bjork on the island with Matt Mos. They timed it to the sunset. The fireworks are going. Everything was, you knew they'd done this in every city right at sunset.

And I remember just looking at my friend Sean, and we couldn't do anything but giggle because this track was so good that night. And it's one of the other times, like, again, like when I think of my favorite moments ever at shows, it's this song. Yeah, that was a, I remember that being a surreal night. Like, it just felt like Otherworldly Kind of like you were walking on some cosmic plane Or something

On those OK Computer Kid A And Amnesiac tours Even the Hail to the Thief tour I saw them at a little theater in New York on that one They were probably the best live band I say this as someone who was seeing Shows almost Dan I was in my early 22, like probably

a show almost every night, you know, sometimes two. They were the best live band on the planet at that time. I'd seen them in so many places and they just destroyed everybody else. How many times have you seen Radiohead? How many times have you seen Radiohead?

Man, I missed the famous one at Barrymore's on the Benz tour that everybody in Ottawa rapped about. I've seen them. I caught them on the EOK Computer Tour in Ottawa. Then I moved here, and I've not missed a Toronto show since. Those two, was it two August ago when they came back for the first time after their drum tech was killed in Downsview?

See, I had tickets to that show, but I haven't had tickets. Yeah, I had tickets to that show that was cancelled. Tragically so. The two comeback shows were absolutely, they were as good as I remember them being at this time. And I think that obviously they had an ax to grind with Toronto and

something to prove and a spirit to honor. And it was, yeah, it made me believe again because I haven't been as with the records, although not like the moon, what is that? The moon shaped pool or whatever. I've lost,

I honestly have lost track I don't know yeah I but those they were untouchable for a while and I really do think I think Amnesiac

is fantastic Kid A just turned 20 that's how old we are I actually I'm on the Amnesiac over Kid A team too probably because I associate

dollars and cents with such a good moment in my life we are the dollars and cents The percussion there is just ridiculous. This is my theme song. I'd love another IPA. Thank you, Great Lakes. I hope it don't turn away

The world is turning I hope I don't turn away All my pictures are falling From the wall where I placed them yesterday The world is turning I hope it don't turn away I got to shout someone out, though. Sorry. Sorry, Neil.

SheWitch on Twitter says, Canadian as fuck. COVID be damned. Toronto Mike and Ben Rayner on Mike's back deck. So shout out to Sheila who's watching on Periscope. Thanks for watching. And Gilles Leblanc, who's an FOTM, says, Ben looks cold, but he wrote that before I put the heater in front of you.

So he's sending his love your way. I'm actually not cold. I got a bunch of layers. The only thing I should have worn is long johns. I'd be perfectly comfortable. But I'm not cold. Your balls are freezing. If you want to, yeah.

My testicles are shriveling up. If you want your heater back for your gear, I'm really not going to. We're going to be okay. I don't even, what is the temp? Like maybe listen to a bit of Neil and I'm going to find out. I think it's just because they can see my breath floating in the air when they're watching on first. It's nine degrees, okay?

It's not bad. We're true Canadians. I do. I will sit out by myself in a swamp in the snow at minus 22 with a fire going all night. Listen, give me three more degrees and I'm sitting here in shorts,

okay? I'm serious. This is the first time I've never seen you in shorts. I know. I thought maybe nine degrees I should wear a pair of pants, but I'd probably be comfy in shorts. I'm fine without the heater. I'm pretty sure the first time I came over it was kind of like this. And you greeted me at the door in shorts. I'm fine without the heater. I'm pretty sure the first time I came over, it was kind of like this. You greeted me at the door in shorts. I was like,

who's this weirdo? It was shorts and sandals. It's March. I've been called weird. I think it's a compliment in a way. You're not like... Trust me. I hope it is. You don't conform to these standards you beat your own drum i really hope it is i was called we're mine have you been called my whole life

neil fucking young get out of town yeah no i love this is my favorite neil tune that's a hard okay 100 people you get a random 100 people and say what's your favorite neil you'll get 100 different tunes. I don't know. I think you get some repeats, but I don't think you get more than one Ben Rayner saying On the Beach. I think On the Beach is my favorite Neil album, too.

Oh. Wow. This is not like Cowgirl in the Sand or something? I mean, I'm a... You know what I got to do? When the first anthology came out, I did a thing for the star where I listened to all of it. Like the, what is it, like eight or nine hours in sequence. And there's a new anthology box coming out.

And I feel like I got to do the sequel. Maybe we should do it live. I'll do it. At one point, we had these terrible neighbors I remember them I hated them anyway I really did I really hated them

I'm a very easy to get along with guy But we had these terrible neighbors Vintage outfits I remember them They'd be standing next to us On the front porch Pretending not to notice us As we both unlock our doors

It was that kind of thing Anyway I remember at one point Them beating on the wall Probably like an hour Six and a half Of the first Anthology box So I feel like I gotta do

I gotta do Anthology volume two In one setting I feel like I gotta get Someone to pay me to do it Actually Because it took years off my life But yes But I love On on the beach,

it's like, I like sad, Neil, but there's enough skronk on the beach that it's a good, it's a good long, it's a long, lazy listen, Mike. Yeah, I know, it's a nice length, and it's a good length, and it's

got that, you know, it's kind of chilling out, man, especially in the backyard on a Monday night like this. It's autumnal. I'm enjoying it. It's an autumnal tune. But also, my personal, like I think if anybody had written it, you know, not to sound like a lunatic, he was writing that song for me. John Lennon, you were writing that song for me.

Oh, no. But if ever a lyric was written for me it's need a crowd of people just can't face them every day that's like kind of my it's kind of like my life everyone who knows me

knows that's very true but that's yeah it resonates everyone knows this is nowhere everyone knows I am nowhere Michael Ianni says, love this.

That's all he wrote. I think that's good. Love this. It is good lazy autumn backyard music. Yeah, it's just... On the beach, man. It's the one. You gotta go back.

You got me all turned around on this. That recording is just perfect. You can't beat that come on I already have a goose bump Thank you. Bye. Man, I could just listen to these jams, man. Just feel it in, man. New order. Dreams never end. Well, I mean, Joy Division is my default favorite band, as you know. But I think that transformation they accomplished after Ian Curtis killed himself in 1980. On the eve of their Joy Division's first tour of Canada on a date here in Toronto.

But the fact that... The Edge? That's where they were going, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think so. That's a Gary's presentation. I don't know. I was six or whatever. It's not like I was going. Shout out to the Garys. They were bringing... They were. But it was like the night before

they were supposed to leave. But I think the... There's a few bands where I'm astonished that they've never made a really bad record. Like Sonic Youth. I can go through the whole Sonic Youth catalog. There's a couple I don't like as much as others, but they're all perfect. I think the fact that New Order, like Joy Division, those two records, Unknown Pleasures and Closer,

are two of my favorite albums of all time. But also, all the New Order albums are really, really good. Like, Get Ready was that late 90s or early 2000s one, was one of their best. And that's only three records, even the one without Peter Hook, which I didn't want to like, because I don't think there can be a New Order without peter hook and i didn't go to the shows i won't go see peter hook do his thing his new order and join him as a thing without them and i won't go

so i've never seen anything this is two of my favorite like two of my favorite bands of all time but because that schism developed right during like like during during my window of opportunity to actually finally see them. I've never seen anything. I've met Peter Hook. I interviewed Peter Hook. It was super cool. But I don't know, man.

It's like, how did they do that? Because how did New Order remain as awesome as George D. But also different. And I think Dreams Never End is the kind of, that's like the perfect, that was sort of where Joy Division would have gone. Right? That's your Love Will Tear Us Apart, but it's a little, it's got a little more

sparkle. I don't know. It just, it gives me goosebumps. I still have, I have goosebumps. Okay, because that song is a verses, and here's the song, it's versing, and you're going to explain why in a moment. You got to let this one kick in, though. It takes a while. I've got time.

I can't. You have no idea how much I love this song. It's not enough, not enough Just another time I'm caught inside Every open eye Holding on tightly to the sides Never quite learning why You'll meet me, you'll meet me You'll meet me halfway Whenever I feel it coming on

You can be well aware If ever I try to push you away, you can just keep me there So please say you'll meet me Meet me halfway It's time To the shifting ground Like I always was Like I always was

You Were the perfect storm But it's not enough It's not enough,'s not enough not enough not enough Come on I'm holding on tightly to the sides Never quite knowing why Whenever I feel it coming on You can be well aware If ever I try to push away You can just keep me

Tell me, tell me, tell me you'll meet me Tell me, tell me, you'll keep me Tell me, tell me, you'll meet me Will you meet me more than halfway up? Come on! We're fucking best. Ha ha. Woo!

Clearest blue. Churches, man. I love churches. There's one. There's an obsession that maybe people don't know. The Scottish trio. The dudes were in a very heavy band on Delgado's label, Chemical Underground, back in the day called Audiogram.

Anyway, two brothers or twins. They might even be twins. I can't remember the singer's name. They're awesome. Anyway, I met them right before their first show in North America when they had like five songs out at South by Southwest

years ago. And then wound up catching them in city to city as they got bigger and bigger. Like I saw them in Hamburg. I saw them here. Wound up seeing them in Chicago, at Lollapalooza, and just a bunch of places for like two years as they got better and better. Right.

And then this is, I think on the second record, but this to me is like, they figured it out. They became like this, because they were really shy. She was terrified. She looked like she was 12 years old. That was their first, and they just grew into it. And I remember seeing this at one of the way homes Gosh, she was terrified. She looked like she was 12 years old. That was their first. And they just grew into it. And I remember seeing this at one of the way homes and somewhere else.

All of a sudden, they were playing to 20,000 people or 15,000 people. But this, to me, is like the way New Order absorbed, like came from post-punk and absorbed rave culture and dance music and put it forward. I feel like these guys take the new order and put it back into anyway i i that gives me the same ooey gooey as dreams never end i love the method to my madness no i just love hearing you talk about the music you love like although these are legit my like my favorite songs that's why i said i couldn't pick okay we're on this is our final jam all right coming up here so you're feeling feeling good? Not going to make me cry again.

You picked the fucking songs bad. These are my favorite songs. You have no idea how sad it gets. We're going to kick out your last jam. Then again, maybe we'll sneak in one more visit before I shut down the back here. I'm going to build a fire. Or we'll take your gear to a bonfire.

Not put it in the bonfire. I'll build a big bonfire. I can't afford it. We'll do the fireside edition. Okay. I'll do my own. You can produce it. We'll destroy the bonfire. This is a song by the band Danny Brown

and their great general, General Walker. So modern feeling Wounded and sober In the hunger of a generation Another ritual of surrender Another motel for us Arizona 1983 Saying we must not hang our hats On a tree

As long as we don't play We will dance As long as we're dying We want to tell the rock and roll We will dance as long as we're dying. We want to set the rock and roll. In my head, in a dispossession. In my head, I'm hearing love song I'm gonna run my tongue Constantine's.

Another three-gut callback. Did you even realize what you're doing over there? I'm completely oblivious, man. That's part of the joy, brother. Arizona. It's funny. When people ask me... That's the Constantine's. when people ask me, uh, that's the constant ease,

uh, from the first song, first album. When people ask me when, uh, again about what's your favorite show ever, which is a really hard question when you've seen a lot of shows. Yeah.

Um, one of the other ones that always comes up, it's funny. I didn't realize this part of that was, is the nice little Fugazi. He bit, um, is the first ones that always comes up, it's funny, I didn't realize this part of it, oh, this is the nice little Fugazi-y bit, is the first time the Constantine's played Toronto when they were like, they were like, I was a kid, but they looked like kids to us.

And Lisa and Tyler from Three Gut were like, this band from Guelph, you have to see this band from Guelph, the Constantine's, and they played a wavelength on a Sunday night at the old Ted's Rocking Yard on College Street. And there were not a lot of, it was like Johnny from Wavelength and Duncan from Wavelength, that gang,

and Tyler and Lisa, me, Stuart Berman, who was then writing for iWeekly, Matt Galloway, the CBC radio personality, but then was like the music writer for now Kieran Grant

who was the music writer for the season so they had like the four music writers and the Wavelength guys and like the Wavelength gang and Lisa and Tyler from Three God

and they were like you gotta come see this band from Guelph the Constantine's and this was the song they opened with and by the end of that we were like

I remember Berman and I at least were like, and Kieran too, because we're all in this very similar kind of post-punk-y taste. Yeah. Just like, what the fuck just hit us in the face? And I think the next day, so I had this record. This is the first one, the Three Gut one.

The first Three Gut. They did the other one through Three Gut and Sub Pop. Yeah. Which is what Max talks about on, Max from the Arkells, talks about on our show, The Chesterfield. The Chesterfield. But anyway,

so yeah, the Constance News have been in my brain lately, but this, this was like, my introduction then, walking in it, and like a barely empty,

Ted's Wrecking, like a barely full Ted's Wrecking, and this band of like, weird kids from Guelph, fucking killing it. Like everybody in that room was like, they were signed the next day, I think, the three guys. And like, you know, it was like a big money deal.

It was like, we're going to put this record out. But I remember having that. I still have the CD-R that Lisa and Tyler gave me. And I actually like that first one Better than Shine a Light Which is an unpopular opinion again Hey If you can't cause controversy

Constantine Traversy Fuck Ben that was amazing So to recap Get the new Gord Downie album And there's like liner notes Some kind of an essay that you wrote For the album. Yes.

And it's a great record. Away is Mine. I don't know. Away is Mine, Gord Downie. And also you should watch our show. It's pretty good. Watch the Chesterfield. Go to friends.ca.

And it's actually, it turned out really good. Give me some guests. What have we heard so far? I know about Fred Penner. There was a Jan Arden one. Jan Arden. Fred Penner. I'm talking to, I think on Tuesday,

Is Grace Talks to Alana Sabomsawin who did, she's a documentary filmmaker. She did. Oh, I actually saw a tweet about this from Lisa Lattesur.

No, she was retweeting something about it. See, I do enjoy her tweets. They misspelled her last name. They had it starting with an A. I think it's an O.

I think that's the name. But yeah, and Michael Barclay was pointing that out. Get her name right. I would have loved to talk to her. What have I got? You said Strombo's coming up.

Strombo and I talk about Hilarious House of Freightenstein. Max Kerman and I, Max from the Arkells and I talk about the Constantines. Chris Murphy and I talk about Rush. I got to talk to Jeff Lemire who did the

Secret Path thing with Gordon Downey but also like I found so many amazing the comic book nerd in me. That was actually Michael DeAdder too. The editorial cartoonist. The Lemire one I could have driven that way sideways just talking about Moon Knight for a while. I'll have driven that way sideways,

just talking about Moon Knight for a while. I'll put it that way. That was my accent. I have his in the basement. Back when I could go in the basement, there's a Cheney Wenjack print that he produced in my basement. Yeah, that sounds pretty cool. It's every Tuesday.

And I think if you, like, they have the episodes online, but for friends of Canadian Broadcasting, like members and stuff, if you sign up, you can get the whole unedited interview, which is pretty cool. They're pretty cool. They turned out pretty good. But dumb question. I know it's a video presentation, but is it also a podcast or is it just you watching? Yeah, you don't have to.

Why? It's like watching me talk to people. I don't know. Who wants that? Nobody wants this. Nobody wants this. Somebody wants this. This golden voice, maybe, but not that. What's her name? Heather wants this, I think. wants this this golden voice maybe but not

what's her name Heather wants this I think okay Heather is my oldest probably my oldest friend I gotta say not my oldest friend

it's not like she's 108 no no but she's your but like we have maintained contact since I was man since I moved to New Brunswick so you're gonna

you're gonna come back and set a fire next time and uh talk to Lisa for me if you don't mind. I'll bring Lisa for a fire. I'll talk to her. And that.

Just apologize. Yeah, just so I can have a moment where I look her in the eyes and apologize. And that brings us to the end of our 300. No, what are we? Our 739th show. Can that be right? That is true because I did one earlier today. Our 739th show.

You can follow me on Twitter. I'm at Toronto Mike. Ben is I. I did one earlier today. Our 739th show. You can follow me on Twitter. I'm at Toronto Mike. Ben is I. I hate Ben Rayner. I hate Ben Rayner. Our friends at Great Lakes Brewery are at Great Lakes Beer. Palma Pasta is at Palma Pasta. Thank you, Great Lakes.

Ben has enjoyed himself. Sticker U is at Sticker U. CDN Technologies are at CDN Technologies. And Pumpkins After Dark are at Pumpkins Dark. See you all this Pandemic Friday with Stu Stone and Cam Gordon.

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