Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - Bob Elliott and Dave Perkins: Toronto Mike'd #561

Episode Date: December 18, 2019

Mike chats with former Toronto Sun writer Bob Elliott and former Toronto Star writer Dave Perkins about baseball.

Great is baseball. The national tonic. The revival of hope. The restorer of confidence. The sporting news. Welcome to episode 561 of Toronto Mic'd, a weekly podcast about anything and everything. Proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, Palma Pasta, StickerU.com,

Brian Master from KW Realty, and Banjo Dunk from Whiskey Jack. I'm Mike from TorontoMike.com, and joining me this week is Bob Elliott, formerly of the Toronto Sun and now a writer with the Canadian Baseball Network. And Dave Perkins, former writer for the Toronto Star and currently happily retired, I believe. Very happy. Gentlemen, welcome. Welcome back, both of you.

Bob's taking a swig from his Diet Coke. It's great to be here. I've only had once. Yeah, that's one more time than last time. The under-over is about three and a half. Now, I can't tell you how much I've been looking forward to this. I've been positioning this to listeners as a Christmas gift to baseball fans in this city.

To have you both on at the same time. Amazing for me anyways. I'm delighted. You should have wrapped this up, Bob. Bob, how many Diet Cokes did you bring with you today? Not enough.

They never go bad. That's the great thing about them. Kind of like us. Well, I think you guys get better with age. You're like a fine wine. I don't know. So let me just set it up this way by telling people, if they want to go back and listen to your first appearance,

and then I'll set the table as how this came to be. And then hopefully people will hear less of me and more of you two legends. That's my hope here. So if you want to hear Bob Elliott's first appearance, which coincidentally was three years ago today. You're kidding. Not kidding. Coincidentally.

Yeah. was three years ago today. You're kidding. Not kidding. Coincidentally. Yeah. On this day in 2016, it was episode 207. Mike chats with legendary baseball writer Bob Elliott about his years covering the Expos and Blue Jays, why he was banned from Bob McCowan's primetime sports, and the future of baseball in Canada. And that episode was like two hours and three minutes.

It was fantastic. And then, Dave, the 490th episode was your appearance. And Mike enjoys several great stories from Dave Perkins, longtime sports columnist for the Toronto Star. Perk, I guess I can call you Perk now. We're friends, Perk, I guess I can call you Perk now, we're friends.

Call me whatever you want. Perk talks about primetime sports with Bob McCow in that name, popped up twice already. Chatting up Jack Nicklaus and Arnold Palmer, his Blue Jays and Olympics memories, his former colleagues

and much, much more. And that episode was an hour and 47 minutes. It only felt longer. Bob, I'm going to start with you with you my friend this is something from your twitter bio right now lucky to be here angela savannah lou and jeff saved my life february 2nd 2019 in otok talks auto talks okotoks uh alberta yeah it's 45 minutes south of calgary i was given a speech it was a bad speech and uh about three minutes into it i just went down and uh angela's a photographer and uh savannah is the trainer and lou pote pitched a little bit with the angels he had six saves he went and got the defibrillator and i was his

seventh save that's a great line 90 uh the the fireman arrived 90 seconds later that's pretty good response time he was at the rink next door watching his kid play and uh and they zapped me once and they zapped me the second time and so um, yeah, that's the only reason I'm here. Well, I'm so glad they saved you, man, because, you know, it's not time to go yet. You've got more stories to share. So how are things, how do you feel these days? I feel good, yeah. I can fly.

Well, I flew out there early August to the Red Cross,ela and savannah a lifesavers award and uh i've been to ottawa and monkton but i can't fly south the border because of the travel insurance did you finish your speech no no what i and what i had to say it was all gone as soon as the guy introduced me because he's one of those emotional guys. You know me, I'm like a rock. come January 30th, I'm cleared to fly on my own.

Well, again, so glad. I mean, yeah, so glad you're here but I was going to say I'm glad you're anywhere to be honest. That's the line. Now, Dave, we actually bumped into each other very recently because I bumped into you at the Dave Hodge in the reporters' live. Oh, yeah, Hodge's thing.

Yeah, that's right. What did you think of that event? I thought it was good. I thought Shanahan was the perfect guest in that format. He's got stories. He kind of gets it. It wasn't just, you know, he wasn't just apologizing for how crappy the Leafs are and everything.

He was, you know, kind of, there wasn't enough time to apologize for 52 years of the Leafs. But Bob always loves it when I dump on the Leafs. He always has. But no, I thought he was a perfect guest in that format and it worked well and, you know, I enjoyed it. Well, it was good to see you there. We chatted briefly.

You were sitting beside, I think, a very rare thing, which is somebody who said no to an invitation to appear on Toronto Mike. Very rare. I mean, Bob McCowan said no. John Shannon. John Shannon, yeah. Well, John's got great stories.

He would be a worthy guest. I know that much. So if you can, I don't know, muscle him or something. I got enough trouble taking care of me. All right. A story that you shared with me, I'm hoping you'll share trouble taking care of me all right then a story that you shared with me i'd like i'm hoping you'll you'll share with all of us now you mentioned that something regarding beer do you remember telling me anything i i gave you a six pack of great lakes beer and i quite i quite like that and i've been i've been buying it ever since and i've been, there's one breed I prefer over the others.

Which one? It's called Over My Dad's Body or something. And I quite liked it, but I can't find it. It's like trying to find a bartender with a last name. They don't exist. Well, I know people there. I can make a call, find out. I think maybe that one's

like a seasonal that comes maybe for summers or something like that. So I have to go check my supply if I have any over my dad's butt because I do have a six pack of Great Lakes for you to take home today. That's good stuff. Bob, you get one too, buddy. Enjoy that. And I have lasagnas for you guys from Palma Pasta

too since you came all this way. The way I look at it is like my gift to baseball fans is I'm going to put you both on the mic and ask you some questions and get you telling stories. And your gift, of course, for me would be the beer, the pasta from Palma Pasta, and the Toronto Mike stickers. I know you guys wanted a Toronto Mike sticker. So that's courtesy of Sticker.com and i urge uh everyone

listening to give them a shot if you need to print up stickers or decals or temporary tattoos or anything of that nature go to sticker you.com they have a physical like a bricks and mortar store on queensway near near bathurst sticker you sticker. So that's kind of like a university or? Oh yeah, Sticker U. That's right. Y-O-U dot com. Oh, okay. Did you know, Dave, that a former colleague of yours actually does a lot of the

artwork for the labels at Great Lakes, Patrick Corrigan? Is that right? Yeah, good guy. He wanted me to remind you that he's there. Is that van a white enough? Okay, you know what? Glad you pulled that one out.

So if you go and buy a hops for hunger, it's the white eggnog stout at Great Lakes right now. They're going to give a dollar to the Daily Bread food bank this season. So yeah, pick up a hops for hunger and a buck of the, go straight to the food bank, daily bread food bank people here. So basically the origin story

before I shut up, because I promised everyone I'd shut up, is that I was thinking of having each of you on again as soon as I could kind of get you to make the trek because I so thoroughly enjoyed your first visits.

And then I thought like like, what if, like, you both have such great stories and you both have such great perspective on everything and you both have a, like, a little, I don't want to say mumbly, but you have a similar delivery style. Can I call it mumbly? Well, you already have, so, yeah.

And I was like, what if I got these two guys on together and just had them like they can just chat amongst themselves and mumble stories at me for like 90 minutes or whatever so I thought like

okay I'll try to put this together as like literally as a Christmas gift for baseball fans in this city so thanks again for

you mean they haven't received enough gifts no they've received very little no they get free content but yeah

so that I meant from the ball club. But yeah, so that's... I meant from the ball club, sorry. Oh, yeah, right. Save that because these are the questions that are going to come. So let me start off with some questions here. First of all, Jason Kinsey wrote in. He wrote, Dave Perkins is the reason I read newspapers.

I grew up loving his column. Conveniently around the time of the 90s Blue Jays powerhouses. He bought your book the day it came out, and he was able to shake Bob Elliott's hand at the back-to-back celebration. That man is an institution. Belongs, Eminence. So can we begin? A question for me is, like, can you guys tell us a little bit about how you guys first crossed paths and got to know each other?

Well, it was long before baseball. Yeah. We were doing harness racing. Yeah. I did harness racing starting in the mid-'70s, covered it, and then did the handicap something, and Bob was doing it in Ottawa. covered it, then did the handicapped something, and Bob was doing it in Ottawa. And this was before the interweb,

and they'd bring up some big horses. They maybe had two or three big races in Connaught and Rideau Carlton. Yeah. And I'd phone up Perky, and I'd say, you know, like the last race, the guy didn't have it, so he would say, oh, he finished sixth, or he went for fun, you know, or whatever, by six lengths. So I used to bug him in the press box. What year approximately? That would have been 76, 5 or 6 or 7?

Yeah, in there, in the 70s, yeah. I mean, we knew Hecker Cloutier before we knew Cito Gaston. Yeah. There wasn't even a Blue Jays team in 76. So your relationship predates the ball team. Yes, that's right. Wow. I had no idea.

No, I was friendly with Bob when he was in Ottawa back in the day. And then you kind of glommed into the Expos. Yes. And, you know, I wasn't doing much baseball in those days. I was still doing more racing, and I was an inside guy. But once I glommed onto the Blue Jays, about 85, I'm trying to think when you started. I was 87. I think

I remember, I don't know if it was the first road trip or whatever, so the boss says, you can take a guy out, like a coach or whatever, for a beer after the game and just put their name down. So we were in Kansas City. I don't know if it was the first trip or second trip it was early and uh i put down the expenses i put down john sullivan al widmer dave perkins so uh i bought around you know perky bought around so i got this thing from the sixth floor and it's circled in blue is this the same same Dave Perkins that works at the Toronto Star?

So the guy said, Wayne Parrish, the boss, said, well, you were honest, and you told the truth, but you were wrong. So take whatever it was, one-third of it off, and just ding him for a cab fare the next road trip. So Bob knew enough next time to put on Jimmy Williams. Right, right, right. So was there any sense, like no fraternizing with the enemy? Like I'm curious about the rivalry because, you know,

the Toronto Star and the Toronto Sun were the, you know, key rivals for, you know, sports reporting in this market in that era. Was there any kind of rivalry, like trying to beat each other to certain exclusives? Well, yeah, you tried to win every day, but most days are tied, I would think. Yeah, I mean, you were always trying. Bob was, you know, Bob was kind of the master of digging stuff out. I was, you know, compared to Bob, I might have been a little better writer.

He was a little better reporter. I would say that's how it kind of worked out. But, no, I mean, you always tried. But on the road, i kind of learned or learned early you we all have to take care of each other out in the road because it's a it's a miserable place to be 100 120 nights a year and and you need friends you need people to talk to you need people to piss and moan at. Sure.

You know. About the desk. Yeah, because, I mean, we're all dealing with things out there that you're not dealing with in the office and people in the office don't understand. And, you know, we used to vent to each other and we understood each other's problems. There was no question.

But you had to, I thought you had to kind of get along with the people you're away with all the time. Yeah, I went in 87. I was living at Ken's house for the first January and February, and I went to a hockey game one night. And, man, those guys were snippeting each other back and forth, you know, like our guys and your guys. Yeah, yeah.

So I'm thinking, oh, this is going to be fun. So anyways, went to spring training, no problem. Went through the whole season, no problem. Everything was good, you know. But when Perky says he glommed on to baseball, I mean, he also was sent around the world to cover the Olympics and the golf and everything else. You know, I was just baseball.

Right. Yeah. Yeah. Bob was, Bob was a lifer and, and I, you know, I moved out of being a lifer and I'm kind of, I'm, I'm happy the way it went for me. Cause yeah, like, like Bob says, I went around the world on somebody else's dime and saw all kinds of stuff and had wonderful things. But baseball was my first love of sports to cover.

It was the one I enjoyed the most and probably the one I knew the most about. But, Dave, do you miss covering it? Because, I mean, Bob's still active. No, I absolutely don't miss anything right now. I miss the people. I shouldn't say I miss nothing. I miss the people.

I miss the guys in the press box. I miss the joking, the kind of the fun we had. We had way more fun 35 years ago, 30 years ago than people do now. There was no 24-7 internet. There was no Twitter. There was none of this constant, you know. I mean, we sat there and actually watched the games we covered. Like, that was the amazing thing.

We watched every play. We watched what happened. We saw why guys won and lost games. Do you remember three or four years ago you were scorekeeping? It was more than that. I haven't done that since 2013. So you called me back to the second row and you just said, look down at that row, see what you see.

And I went down at the end of the inning and I said, nobody's watching the game. But it's not their fault. No. Because the boss has got them blogging, he's got them tweeting, he's got them emailing, he's got them, you know. We didn't have to do that stuff. Yeah, that's right.

So we could watch the game. And we also, we could spend time around the team, around the players, around the coaches, and it wasn't always in a, you know, demanding to know stuff in a work situation. We could sit there and share a joke or talk about their families or, you know, it wasn't necessarily stuff we had to write about. We got to know them as people, and some of them got to know us. And then a trust, I'm sure a trust would evolve from that which is

why you know somebody might open up with to you about something and then you'd have suddenly you'd have an exclusive i mean the you know we used to have managers or coaches would sit there and light a cigarette knowing we weren't going to write that they were smoking in the dugout like you know what i mean like right like nowadays somebody would be just dying to take a picture of it and post it. Right. And say, look at this man, you know, and getting people in trouble. Yeah, very interesting.

Now, in 1993, when the Blue Jays are in the World Series against the Phillies, both of you for the sun and the star. We're sitting beside each other. I think so. So were you guys sitting beside each other when Joe Carter hits? Wow. Yeah. How many approximately, Bob, I don't need to give you a specific number,

but approximately how many people representing the Toronto Sun would have attended that game six? Maybe about 10 or 12. 10 or 12. And how many people representing the Toronto Star would have attended that game? At least the same. Are you counting photographers as well? Yeah.

No, I wasn't. Okay, because actually now I wish I kind of picked a game in Philadelphia. So let's take game five in Philadelphia, because I'm sure you'd send more people to the Dome than you would send to. Sure. Right. So give me just an approximate number of how many people represent the Star. I'll give you the record for the Toronto Star.

Okay. It was 1985 in kansas city and i was i was not the writer i was the coach i was the administrator and the coach and the toronto star had 19 people 19 people i was one of 19 and uh what about uh the toronto sun record approximately at the same ballpark or i would i was first of all i was a coach at the atlanta olympics and i think it was 14 and uh but as for uh the highest on the road i would say it'd be seven or eight or nine somewhere in there now i'm counting photographers darkroom guys uh we had a computer guy because it was in the fairly early days of computers so we had a kind of a techie right was there to to you

know because everybody had trouble with with computers in those days it wasn't like now so that but that's 19 top to bottom wow well i'm sure i'm sure today uh maybe the number would probably dwindle to two or something like that. I don't think they have 19 people left in the newsroom. That's a good point. I think the Toronto Star has four photographers. Right.

Something like that. Well, we're talking about coaching and the Atlanta Olympics. So you remember Joe Strauss? Yeah. So he wrote for the Atlanta Journal-Constitution. And then he went to the Orioles and covered the Orioles and all that. So this is, when were the Olympics? August?

Yeah, August. So now we're in October, and we're in Baltimore. And somebody says, hey, what ever happened with that Richard Jewell guy? And Strauss never even looked up. He's typing awayimore and somebody says hey whatever happened with that richard jewel guy and and strauss never even looked up he's typing away and he says and he didn't have an accent he put this on and he says sir we at the atlanta journal constitution refer to him as mr jewel because they buried right yeah they buried him well i, that's all in the news right now, right? Right. Clint Eastwood's. I haven't seen it yet. Yeah.

So I'm going to start with the questions about now, and then we're going to go back to, and again, Dave's excused if he has. I don't know. Have you unplugged? You still watching baseball? You still following baseball? Oh, I watch it, and it drives me insane. So I end up yelling at the TV most nights.

The game is played so poorly now. No strikeouts? Yeah, it's just, every game lasts four hours, nothing happens. It drives me insane. Man, okay. Chris says,

and I'm going to read his question here. He says, ownership is the biggest impediment to the Jays to win. Again, this is Chris talking. The bogus small market talk, the below market TV deal to themselves, etc. Is it even possible Rodgers will consider selling? Is MLSE an option? Is there someone with a billion

dollars or more burning a hole in their pocket? Very few Major League Baseball franchises become available. Is there a savior out there for the Jays? So Chris here is not happy with Rodgers ownership. What's your opinions on the current? A number of questions came in about wanting to know your perspective on the current state of Blue Jays' ownership and management. Well, I think I can speak for Perk. We're not buying it.

We're not buying the team. I just cash in our empties and we might, but. You guys don't have a billion dollars between you. So a lot of questions, though, about ownership. Like maybe, because I feel like we might be lacking some of this as people who have been around and seen this team for years no longer cover it. Bob, you're still writing for the Canadian Baseball Network.

But I would love to hear your thoughts on the current state of the Blue Jays' ownership and management. Well, that small market stuff, which JP used to say all the time. Right, all the time. Yeah. I mean, what happened in 15 and 16? I mean, the place was full. They led the league in attendance.

Right. I mean, now the stadium is bad. It's terrible. Like, well, how bad was it, you know, like three years ago or whatever? I mean, you put a good team in there, people are going to come and see. It's like most cities. So I would say, you know, fix the team. You're going to fix the attendance.

No question. I always said for 40 years i wrote the same thing every player's most every team's most important player is the owner you know upper management determines whether you want to be good or whether he wants to make money or whether he doesn't have any idea what he's doing. And if you have the right owner, it means everything. I mean, I heard people shit on George Steinbrenner for 30 years, but I can't think of one fan who wouldn't want that kind of owner, an owner who demands winning first, and everything else will take care of itself.

Like George Steinbinberg didn't build the yankees which he bought for 13 million and is now worth well what a couple of billion dollars he didn't build the the tv network and everything based on what might have happened that was all built because he made sure they won he did what it took to win and then boom the value went up the tv network happened i mean these people who want mlsc to be their owners i would be very very careful they've done it the the opposite way of george steinberg they've never cared about winning so much as building the brand and opening the restaurants and building the condos and building the tv network there's been uh like we've seen an mls cup come to the tfc and we've seen an nba championship come to

the raptors and i mean the leaps do spend the cap that's part of the part of the problem i suppose but yeah i guess but they haven't won a playoff series in 15 years they haven't won a stanley cup in 52 i know people don't want to hear that, but those are those little inconvenient things called facts. Right. So, you know. Like the number of shots on goal Seattle had. Yeah, right. Right.

Yeah, that first MLS Cup. You watched it more than me. No, I just read about it. I couldn't believe it. They had zero shots on goal in what, 60 minutes? 90. And no overtime. Anyway, anybody would be better than Rodgers, I think. Maybe even MLSC. But I'd be very careful.

I mean, I'd rather have, you know, a very rich guy out there who wants to win. Very rich person who wants to win first and let everything else follow after you win to me that's the way they're built seinbrenner wanted to win every year yeah every year it didn't matter and and they would give him crap at the owner's meetings and he'd just go like this right and they'd say what do you mean rings and he'd say, what do you mean, rings? And he'd say, no. He'd say Posada, Pettit, Jeter, Williams. They're all homegrown guys. Now, okay, so what is Rogers, current owner of the Blue Jays, what is their priority if it's not to win?

Do you believe they're committed to win with this new management? I believe it's to save money for the disastrous NHL deal that they signed. I really do. I think if they'd taken some of that money and made the blue jays very good very competitive and kept them that way i think they would dominate winter viewership and summer viewership but they didn't they they it's i mean everything looks like a cost-cutting move right down to firing two dozen guys we know here who work and do good work over the year.

Right. And they've rinsed them to save money. It's all about saving that money because they're getting killed on the NHL deal. I mean, they use words like controllable assets and years of control and stuff, which as a baseball fan is kind of infuriating. The first time I ever heard control was Sergio Sanchez.

Santos, excuse me. The reliever they got, okay, from the White Sox. They had six years of control. Alex was bragging about it. I don't think he got to two or three. You can them up but i mean he didn't work if the guy if the guy isn't any good it doesn't matter if you got him for 100 years of control right well let me read a quote like this is like from last week ross atkins quote he says uh we didn't choose to have 2019 occur that's not what our vision was our vision was trying to do everything we could to extend that window with the

parameters that we had. Can either of you intelligent gentlemen translate that to me? Like, what is he saying there? It just doesn't, you know, I like Ross. I,

I, I've, I've kind of said a couple of times to Ross, Ross, you got to speak a little bit more directly to, or human, you know, it's,

it's, it isn't all boardroom. Right. You know what I mean? Like there's fans out there who want to know who's going to play the outfield who can catch the ball. You know what I mean? Like that's the way we should be talking.

Who we got who can catch the ball? Answer, not many, but we don't hear that. Yeah. So Bob, what do you think about those statements? Is it just gobbledygook, corporate gobbledygook? I would say that's a close description. I mean, they did not expect 2019 to unfold as it was. But they're the only ones who didn't expect that, because we all predicted pretty accurately how that would happen.

Stroman snuck out of town in the middle of the night, and San Jose Sanchez, and everybody else that they moved. I mean, here's the thing. I saw Dan O'Dowd on MLB Network the week before the meetings, and he was talking about the Marlins and he was very, very critical.

And he said, they tanking this tanking doesn't work because there's so many teams that are tanking. Right. So you tank. So you, you piss off your sponsors for five years. You piss off your fans for five years.

You piss off your fans. And then you say, Oh, come on back right also it's not basketball right like basketball you one guy like you draft a lebron james it can change your fortunes for the next 15 years whatever it's baseball it's more of a you know it's a crap shoot it's more it's not it's not the same uh the prospects aren't the same at 18 years old right and and even if you only go by the success of 15 16 all those guys arrived in trades you know what i mean i mean tolwitzki came in a trade and batista came in a trade edwin came in

a trade donaldson yeah donaldson came in they all came in trades man it wasn't uh you know, they've never really, they didn't draft well when Ricciardi was in charge. They didn't draft great when Alex was in charge. So, I mean, Alex was better than Ricciardi for the draft, but they just have not been, you know, they haven't uncovered a lot of gems in the draft. Okay, I'm going to read another one quickly, but then I have a follow-up here for myself. But this is from MySchoolRocks.

That's the handle on Twitter. Thank you, Mike. I have been wondering if there would be a person out there, preferably Canadian, who has the money to purchase the Jays from Rodgers. Would single ownership of a baseball only focus on winning help in the long run as it takes away from corporate shareholder pressures? Well, clearly you guys say yes. I've been hearing this from you guys already here so but i don't know i don't know who the man is no i and i don't know if he exists and if you're the unicorn i don't know

and if you're rogers you're going to say well whoa whoa whoa whoa we're retaining the the tv rights right and that's going to cost you x and and the price is going to be x plus y and this is and you want the arena to the stadium too that's an x y plus z like it's going to be right stupidly expensive to get the son of rogers would you guys describe the blue jays as a small market team oh no it's the fourth largest fourth largest city fourth largest city. Sure. Fourth largest city, and we got New York, L.A., Mexico City, and then Toronto. Right. Mexico City doesn't have a team, so it's third.

Right. It's bigger than Houston, bigger than Toronto. So why do they seem to play this card? Is that just to tell fans to be patient? We can't go spend the bucks at the Yankees and Red Sox, and everybody seems to be able to spend. But they could if they wanted to. Yeah. But they aren't going to get patient. We can't go spend the bucks at the Yankees and Red Sox and everybody seems to be able to spend. But they could if they wanted to. But that's the next question.

They aren't going to get Garrett Cole. I mean, you finally achieve free agent status. You're not going to a team that lost 95 or 96 games. You're going to go to a team that won. Absolutely. Johnny says, why is Rodgers so cheap?

They could easily buy a championship. But you're saying that's not necessarily the case because you've got to create an environment people want to come to. But I think a lot of fans think that it's just rotisserie sports growing up. You can't just say, oh, I want Rendon to be my third baseman or whatever. You can't just say it. He has to want it too. Right.

And Gary Cole has to want to come here. And like Bob says, Gary Cole doesn't want to come here. This team was crummy last year. It's not going to be any good this year. I mean, he wants to go where he can win. And it takes, what's the old phrase, it takes two to tango. Right.

And that's exactly right. You have to be good to start with to get free agents to get over the top. Right, right. Now, I like this question because it lets you kind of compare it to the past, which I'm kind of interested in. Michael McDiarmid says,

I'd love to hear their feelings on the current front office and how they compare with front offices that they covered. So is there any way you could do a comparison with previous management teams on the J's? I don't, I mean, I don't cover these guys now, so I really don't know how they are to deal with day to day. I'm not on a daily basis. Yeah, it's...

The results, you can look at the standings. Yeah. I would say the thing about Beeson and Gillick when I first arrived, like during the winter, it was like a variety village on the Monday and Wednesday it was the Rotary Club or something. They were always, they were out in the community. I don't see this from these guys.

Right. And I mean, they had that reunion down on Queens Quay at some hotel down there, the Radisson, I think it was. Right. So the Blue Jays wouldn't let the World Series trophy go down there. Trophies go down there. And the deal was they were going to have your picture taken and five bucks would go for to some charity or something and they said no we're not

letting them leave the building i mean that's yeah kind of petty stuff i think yeah yeah like bob says you could you could i mean the off season stretch from the the day after the last game until the day before spring training. And there was always baseball talk. There was always something going on. There was, they had the winter caravans, and they took it across the country. And players would come in to sign contracts, and there'd be, you know, press conferences.

And, I mean, there was always something going on. They kept baseball at the forefront. Now, there was no basketball in those days. I get it. So, and, you know, Harold Ballard ran the Leafs, so there wasn't anything constructive being done there. So they kind of, the window was wide open. In a way, it isn't so much now.

So they kind of, the winter was wide open. In a way, it isn't so much now. I remember one caravan, like Toronto was always the last stop, and it was at the Holiday Inn over there by City Hall. And this is a good newspaper day. You were talking earlier about winning and everything. So I had a story about Stottlemy driving to must have been 95 that free agent camp in florida or something and how molliter tried to give him money it was a news story it was if i do say it was okay news story perky had a really good news story about what alomar wanted

on his contract and neil a campbell at the globe had the fact that Gillick was retiring in two years or whatever. Wow. And here's the worst part. I was right there, right? And Bill Stevenson asked the question and he says, so Pat, how long are you going to do this? And I thought, and I just walked away. And so Neil A. was there and he heard the answer.

Oh, man. Brian. Sorry, Brian. Oh, man. Brian. Sorry, Brian had a good question here. He wants to, he goes, and I'm going to try to get the passion I can sense from Brian here. I am sick and tired between Montreal and Toronto to see baseball being played on turf in stadiums not designed for baseball sightlines.

Even Jari Park on grass in a minor league park was preferable. Canadian fans have been robbed by this. Is there any hope it will change? Is there any hope that this will change? Brian wants to know. Global warming is a big hope there. Well, I remember, I think it was Godfrey was the president, and he said, you know, we're really going to address this issue.

It'll really help with our fans. And I said, Paul, I said, how many times do you hear, you know, at a corner pub or at a restaurant or something, hey, let's go down to the Sky Dome and watch the grass grow. Right. You know, I mean. And how many times did you hear people who sat on those cold benches at Exhibition Stadium piss and moan about that and say,

we got to get a better, we got to get our dome here. It's too cold. I'm not sitting on here, blah, blah, blah. So people just want what they don't have. Want what they don't have. And if I may, as a fan, you know, in 2015 and 2016, the dome was a fun place to be and it looked okay and everything was A-OK it's like Bob said

you put a good team in there nobody cares what the stadium looks like when there's a bad team in there everybody starts looking around the stadium it looks horrible when it's got like 12,000 people in there why isn't this Gandon Yards so I went to the Metro Dome

and the guy's searching my bag and everything, and I look behind over his shoulder, and there's a big mural. And I said, you guys are building an outdoor park? And I said, your weather's worse than ours. I said, how can you do that? And this guard, he captured it perfectly, just like Perky said. He said, we all want what we don't have. He said, I'll bet you $10

our next stadium, not that I will be here to see it, our next stadium will be a dome stadium after Target Field. You're so right. Yeah, everyone's looking for, you're right, everyone's looking for Camden Yards or whatever, Jacobs Field or whatever, because we have the opposite. But when it's full and the team's good and exciting, like in

2015. Nobody cares. Nobody. I sure didn't care. It means nothing. Right. Very interesting. Now, speaking of Montreal, so Brian's from Montreal, but Omar wants to know if a franchise in Montreal is sustainable. You guys got an opinion on that?

I don't think that. I thought that Tampa Bay slash Montreal thing was stupid. I mean, they can't get a stadium built in Montreal. They can't get one built in Tampa Bay, so now they're going to have each city build one. That makes a lot of sense. On half the revenue stream. And you're going to have, let's say for the sake of the argument,

Yvonne Longoria buy a house in both cities? And you're really kind of pissing off both city fans like because you know do you really feel like it's your team like i remember the bills in toronto experiment like it's like again this this isn't our team like they're just trying to make some cash out of us right now the tailgating was fun yeah that's right funny you mentioned stoudemire it just with the old guy like guys i haven't thought of in a long time i haven't thought of Stoudemire. It just, old guy, like guys I haven't thought of in a long time. I haven't thought of Stoudemire in a long time. But he was a strange guy.

I remember once I called him in the paper. I called him Norman Bates Stoudemire. And all he did was laugh. Nobody threw a fit. Nobody put it on Twitter and went, oh, my God, we can't have that. I don't remember him. I don't remember that. But didn't you and Bear send him when he was with St. Louis?

You sent him a telegram? No, that would have been Bear. Not me. But one time he got suspended for drilling somebody, and he sat in the press box with us in Camden Yards, and he went out and bought a fedora just so he could sit in the press box. He thought he had to have a hat on. Right.

And we said, no, Stoud, it's all right. And, you know, Stoud, he was crazy. He was, you know, like a pitcher went 12 and 12 every year you'd say oh uh you know we never boy now he'd make 30 million dollars yeah he eats the innings too yeah you kidding me yeah yeah he pitched 180 innings and went 12 and 12 with a 320 era would he he's god now now if either of you at any time have a tangent story or something like that, please don't hesitate. I love the Todd Stoddard. Bob mentioned the name, and it just clicked in my brain.

Well, here, I'm going to drop another name here because I want to ask you about this guy. But Fast Time Milan, he says, as long-time experienced writers covering the beat, could they name an athlete or two who had a sparkling public reputation but were quote-unquote real jerks behind the scenes? And he goes on to say that Joe Carter is one

who seemed to have cultivated his image very carefully to the public, but whispers were that he was at times a phony. So, I mean, that's Milan's words, but let me hear from some people. Like, is there anyone like that, or maybe even comment on... One or two?

As many as you like, actually. I'm going to remove that one or two. I did a banquet three weeks ago in Kingston, and it was a complete speech, by the way. I didn't... Oh, thank goodness. But, I mean, he was amazing. Joe?

Yeah. Okay. I mean, I got there and checked my coat. He walked in ahead of me. I checked my coat, went to the washroom, found my sister who was there, and I came back. He had moved two feet, like just signed an autograph. And they're bothering him during dinner and everything.

I mean, he wasn't the best. He was more of a TV guy than a newspaper guy. Right. But he was very impressive. I'd never seen anything like that. I'm glad to hear this because... I thought Joe... I thought the biggest phony I covered was Dave Winfield that way.

Winfield was... He had the smile for the camera persona and everything. And you could talk to him, but he knew exactly how the media worked. He knew who the rights-holding radio guys were and who was with the 50-watt bulb stations. And he parsed his time.

He knew who the columnists were, and he knew who the beat guys were, and he knew who the backup beat guys were. And he parsed his time. He knew who the columnists were, and he knew who the beat guys were, and he knew who the backup beat guys were. And he parsed his time that way. And I think Joe, you know, I always tell one Joe Carter story. From Augusta? No, not from Augusta. I did get that story after I stopped recording.

I've told that story before. But remember when Kansas City, and I forget what what year it was it all blurs you know but it was the year they traded at the trade deadline for cory snyder remember cory snyder right fielder with the indians oh when he came here yeah that was when tennis managed the last 10 games or something that was the year they played minnesota i think 91 yeah 91 so we're in kansas city as City they've made the trade and it's like a Sunday and press

media we had to be out of the clubhouse we'll say the game's at 1 o'clock and we gotta be out of the clubhouse at like 11.45 something like that so at 11.30 the travel guy's saying well Snyder will be here any minute and there's you, eight riders.

We want to just get the quote, one quote from him and say, oh, it's great to be here. I'm so happy, blah, blah, blah, the usual BS. So the clock's ticking, the clock's ticking, the clock's ticking. It's like 1141, and the door opens in comes cory snyder with his bags and his you know and he's high-fiving guys and we kind of said cory cory cory we're the listen we gotta be out of here in uh two and a half minutes can we just grab you for 90 seconds we'll get the boilerplate quote and we'll leave you alone and he he kind of looks at us, and he big leagues.

He says, no, I don't. I'll talk to you guys later, blah, blah, blah. And we're going, oh, shit. And Joe Carter walks over, and he puts his arm on the shoulder. He says, Corey, we try to get along with these guys. Give them their minute. Oh, wow. And Snyder goes, oh, okay.

And he gives us, oh, isn't it great to be here? I love to be in a pen and erase, blah, blah, blah. See, that's leadership. The stuff. The clock hits. We all get shooed, but everybody's got what they need for the first edition, and it's getaway day, so you can file your sidebar. Yes.

It's all done. It's a good thing. And I want the car to the next day where we're landed and said, thank you for that. You know, cause that really saved us on getaway day a whole lot of time. And I always remembered that. And, and a little later on Carter got a little

bit kind of like Winfield, I thought, you know what I mean? Toward the end about about picking the spots. Is that because after he gets the World Series winning homer? No, I'm trying to think. I think it was before. Yeah, it was before that, yeah. But I also remember one spring when the clubhouse was in left field,

and I'd gone inside talking to somebody, and CNN was on, and I come outside, and Carter's in left field and i i'd gone inside talking to somebody and cnn was on and i come outside and carter's in left field and i said hey joe and that's a complete no-no right and he just waved at me and i said hey joe come here for a second and he said no i'm not talking to you i said i think you might want to so he comes over and i said you might want to go inside and look at CNN. They just had a bombing there in Oklahoma City. Yeah, where he's from. Of course, right. And he said that the sister felt the windows vibrated 30 miles away.

Oh, my God. But he thanked me for that. That was any other circumstance. That's a terrible no-no. Wow, wow. Oh, yeah. Now, what about, okay, so Marty York. That was any other circumstances. That's a terrible no-no. Yeah. Wow, wow. Oh, yeah. Now, what about, okay, so Marty York.

Do you have any thoughts on Marty York? Any thoughts you want to share on Marty York? Just, no? Okay. I hear crickets. Okay, so he told some terrible stories about Paul Molitor. What was he like to cover Paul Molitor as a Blue Jay? I never had anything but good things to say about Molitor.

He was fine for our purposes. He had insight. He understood the game tremendously. I remember the Blue Jays bought the argos and i think it was a very very windy night a couple of balls got lost and uh and we walk in the door the clubhouse opens and malder calls calls us over and he says these guys they buy a football team they don't know they don't think they don't know how know how the weather works with baseball now. So Perky said, he said, Molitor's unbelievable.

He sits down there in the dugout. He's got to be taking notes for us. Like the one Bob Shepard at Yankee Stadium. He says, ladies and gentlemen, please extend a Yankee welcome to Mr. Bob Hope. And Robbie Alomar in the dugout says, Polly, Polly, Polly, did Bob Hope and Robbie Alomar and the dugout says, Pauly, Pauly, Pauly, did Bob Hope play for the Yankees?

Oh man, that's great. Now, what about Kelly Gruber? Because there's been some incidences lately with Kelly Gruber, but as a long time blue team. I got a Gruber story. Yes.

We're in Milwaukee and he's playing catch. Like, could you imagine that today? And I'm talking to him. Oh, yeah. So I'm talking to him, and I said, how's it going? He says, well, it was rough on Sunday. This is a Monday or Tuesday, first day of the road trip.

I said, what was so rough? He says, oh, he says, I got called upstairs. I said, about what? He says, well, he said, there was Cito, there was Beeston, there was Gillick, there was Ash. And he said, they gave me three choices. They said I either had to go on the DL, go to Syracuse, or play every day. Because he wasn't.

He would play a game and then take two off, and they put Tom Lawson and everything. So I said, well, what did you tell him? He says, well, I told told him i'm gonna play every day so this was like i said the first day of the road trip so then we go to arlington and he comes up and he says did you write some story about me having a big meeting with beason and gillick and everything he said where did you get that i said you told me that I remember watching Gruber and his wife

doing crossword puzzles on the team bus that was like perpetual motion I remember they got that four letter word and they couldn't figure it out they got M-Y-E-X my ex and that was what they'd come up with

and Kelly's wife said oh I get it my ex and that was what that was what they'd come up with and and uh kelly's wife said oh i get it if we got the worst you'd be my ex that was good but i give gruber credit for this and this is this is something i almost never saw another player do this gruber won after his big year remember he made the all-star team and he was really really good he had that monster he had like 327 he was not that they're allowed to mention batting average but he he made the all-star team he was really good he won a silver slugger or something so he won something called the lou gehrig award and he didn't know anything about

lou gehrig he didn't know who's lou gehrig. He didn't know who's Lou Gehrig. You know what I mean? Like all these guys have no question. So I'm in the clubhouse or something walking around, and Gruber's locking next to Mosby. And he's saying to Mosby, who is a terrific guy, what about this Lou Gehrig thing I want? Who's Lou Gehrig? And Mosby sees me walking by. He says, ask Burke. He knows all that stuff. So I

start telling him who Lou Gehrig was. And Gruber goes, oh, really? That's fantastic. And he died of a disease named after him. What a coincidence. So there's a famous picture in Tiger Stadium. The day that Lou Gehrig, his streak ended at 2,130 games. Gehrig, in the old dugout at Tiger Stadium, stepped up kind of on the first step. And he folded his arms on the railing

and he kind of stared out at the field pensively and a photographer got a tremendous yes photo of his kind of face the 17 straight years of playing it was all there was just a terrific photo and i somebody showed that to gruber or he looked up or whatever the next time we're in detroit gruber went to a photographer and showed him the picture and said can you pose me like that in the same place nice that lou garrick had posed 58 years or whatever the number well you know what i mean like like so he did and i thought boy that that's a lot of uh you know that's a lot of uh you know awareness that most players do not or do not share what about the one where uh you were talking about i think it was garrick yeah well well i was on the road oh yeah yeah this was that was this day

same day where where mosby says ask her because he knows all about Gehrig. So I'm saying, well, Gehrig was this and the Yankees and blah, blah, blah, and Gehrig set all these records for RBI, still holds the American League record, and he blah, blah, blah. And I said, and he has another record, 1927, he hit, I think, 38 homers and 107 RBIs. And they're kind of looking at me, and I said, on the road. And Mosby said, what?

And I said, well, it was road games, and it was a shorter season. They only played 77 road games. And he had 107 RBIs and 77 road games. And Mosby says, says well that's impossible and uh i said well no that's actually a fact and uh it's kind of and just then in walks jesse barfield who jesse was a piece of work and barfield struts in and and mosby says to him, Jess, Jess, Jess, listen to this. He says, tell him what you told me. So I go through the whole thing about Lou Gehrig and blah, blah, blah.

And he had 107 RBIs and 77 road games. And Barfield looked at me and he said, how much money did he make? And I said, well, his best contract, he made $31,000. And Barfield goes, he couldn't have been no good. He didn't make no cake. And kind of left for the other side of the room, and I went, they're helpless. I have a picture story.

So one day at Yankee Stadium, Hector Torres, he was a coach, and I'm sitting with him, just shooting the breeze about whatever, and this photographer comes in. He looks like 95, and he goes, I know you. He says, you're going to be here tomorrow? And the actor says, yeah, it's a three-game series. Well, I'll be here tomorrow. So the next day he comes in. The actor says, what do you think this is?

I said, well, I don't know. I want to see. So he comes in. Hector says, what do you think this is? I said, well, I don't know. I want to see. So he comes in. He's got a picture. The guy didn't know who he was. We weren't at his locker. He comes in and he gives him a picture from 1955. And he's in the Yankee dugout with Whitey Ford.

It was the week after Mexico won the Little League World Series. And he recognized him from the picture oh wow that's fantastic and hector started crying it was a wonderful wonderful moment uh dave you mentioned the jesse barfield was a piece of work can you elaborate just a little bit uh that that outfield was everything to me when i was a 10 year old well i remember when jesse bought a rolls royce yeah in spring training and then he and then he had a gold plated he had the lugs yeah he had the he had the wheel and the radiator and the side mirrors everything he had them gold plated and then he what he couldn't get insurance on the car i Oh, I don't remember that. It's fine, but you just can't park it anywhere. It was insane. It was like, you know, you buy a car for whatever it would cost in those days,

and then you had the gold plate at, like, what's the point? So I said, yes, that looks pretty sharp. He said, thanks, man, thanks, thanks. I said, where do you drive it? He said, well, I can't drive it. Right, right. It's a status symbol. Because you can't.. Right, right. It's a status symbol. Because you can't.

Yeah, I guess. It's fun to own. There was a time Marla, his wife, Marla was a very, very good-looking woman. And Jess had a lot of money. And he was a conspicuous consumer, shall we say. Yes. Like, he was not scared to spend. So one time, we're flying out of New York.

This is back in the day when we flew with the team. And several of the wives had made the trip because there was, you know, they like to shop in New York and go to theater and everything. So a lot of always, when there was a New York element to the trip, there'd be a lot of families along.

So a couple of the coach's wives, I remember Sully's wife, and I forget one or the other, they were talking about how they'd spent the day at Bloomingdale's or one of the high-end New York's. And they talked about this little outfit that was in the window, and they'd seen it in the show, and they looked at it, and they loved this outfit, and blah, blah, blah. But it was $2,400 for this and $3,200 for that.

It was just like the most incredibly expensive little frock. And, of course, five minutes later, Marla Barfield gets on the plane wearing it. Oh. And the wires are going, blah, blah, blah. There it is. That's not the one I was going to tell. I remember when they came out with those contraptions,

like they were like you could watch a movie. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. About the size of a small suitcase. Yeah, so Mosby walks by him and he says, Jess, that's a new one what do you need a second one for it's an hour flight he says well i forgot my other ones so he bought another yeah he forgot he left it here in toronto so he bought a second one that's kind of like derrick bell buying the cars in spring training remember that year is that when jo when Joe Carter pranked them and pretended they were giving away his car as a raffle?

That might have been later. I just watched that video again. Everybody was buying, I forgot what kind of car it was. It was a new kind of car, and two or three of the guys that bought them, they were about $40,000, a lot of money in those days. Right. And Derek had gone out, and he was a rookie.

He was making the rookie minimum, which in those days was like $106,000 or something. And he had bought a car, a nice car, for himself. And then when other guys were buying these cars I forget what it was I'm not good with cars I don't remember but anyway he decided well I better get one of these too

so he went out and bought a second $40,000 car so all of a sudden he's got he's a rookie he's got $80,000 tied up in two cars. And somebody says, well, Derek, you just bought that last week. Why would you buy this one? And he said, what if the first one breaks down?

Oh, you're going to have a battle. That was his rationale. Everybody wants one of these. That's extravagance right there. But everybody was writing about guerrero's the best prospect in the history of the franchise yes derrick bell had the same stature he won the he won the baseball america's award and uh you know that's interesting perspective because now we have a social media like you'd think that you know the second coming here with

vladdy but you're saying derrick bell had the same kind of and but not eddie zosky just derrick bell everybody always flowers up their their number one prospects have throughout history every team's got a guy they think is the next hall of famer every team and it almost never works out that way gear joyce uh fotm gear joyce says uh did they ever uh this is a question i'll start with you dave here did you ever go to the old toronto maple leaf games at the in the international all the time all the time in 1961 when they were when they were watch your head bob 1961 when they were the red socks farm team i caught a foul ball hit by carl yastrzemski wow in the in the uh remember the major league teams used to come down and play the triple a team and and i caught a foul ball hit by carl and this is i remember that i was like eight years old i

remember that you know the tip-top tailors is all the time this i grew up in scarborough and for one dollar by myself by myself when i was 10 years old i would take the tts take the dodge road bus to danforth avenue take the street car there were no subway in those days. To Bathurst Street. Take the Bathurst Streetcar down. Right. Pay 25 cents to get in. Buy a hot dog and a Coke. Watch the ball game. When it was over, get on the TTC. Streetcar back to Bloor.

Bloor slash Danforth Streetcar all the way to Dodge Road. Get off. Go to the Maple Leaf Dairy. I'd have a nickel left. Buy a nickel off, go to the Maple Leaf Dairy, I'd have a nickel left, buy a nickel ice cream cone at the Maple Leaf Dairy, then get on the Dodge Road bus and go home. And that was what I would do to see baseball. What can you tell me about that stadium?

Because I've only seen it in pictures. I guess they tore it down in the late 60s. Yeah, it was a pretty ramshackle old stadium. Yeah, it was a pretty ramshackle old stadium. This day and age, nobody would go near the place. Not enough washrooms and not comfortable and leaky. It looks better in photos. Sure, but it was where we went to watch baseball.

And it had the old painted billboards in the outfield, and it was great. Down the left field line, it had no seats in center field. It had an arm down first base and an arm down third base, and from the left field, not quite the foul pole, but out, there'd be a wire cut off there. It was fenced off, and that's where the 25-cent seats were, outside there.

So you were way down the left field line. Wow, and I can't believe you saw Carl Yastrzemski there, because I don't think I knew that the AAA teams were playing. Yeah, they used to play. When I was a kid, the first, they were affiliated with the Braves, and then Washington Senators, because I remember Kenny Hamlin coming through, and then it was the Red Sox. So Red Sox might have been after 61, I'm trying to think.

But as you know, the 64 Governor's Cup team, a lot of those guys went on, you know, they played a couple of years and then they went on to become Red Sox. Sparky Anderson was the manager. Reggie Smith played center field before he went up to the 67 Red Sox. It was like that. Wow, wow. That's amazing.

Now, William Dunlop, here's a question for you from not as long ago as that, but from the 90s here. I want to know, to your knowledge and Bob's knowledge, did Pat Gillick try to expand the Carter-Alamar trade and once again make a play for Bruce Hurst? We still look at that, I guess, as the biggest trade in Jay's history.

Oh, sure. Do you have any knowledge of whether they tried to expand that trade? look at that i guess is the biggest biggest trade in jay's history i guess yeah uh do you know do you have any knowledge of whether they tried to expand that trade uh it was it was they tried to make it bigger it was for uh i talked to two guys uh somebody sent me that question uh last night and both guys said yeah we did but it wasn't Hurst. It was like a lesser player, like a position player, and neither one could remember. He says, do you know how long ago that was?

Right, that was with the Padres, right, the San Diego Padres. Man, what a trade, like just looking back at, you know, Tony and McGriff. Four All-Stars. Yeah. And look what, and again, the hindsight being 20-20, worked out okay, didn't it? So, well, Robbie Alomar.

By the way, Bob, did you ever go to those Maple Leaf games in the International League? I went to one game. I heard Perky say that he caught a foul ball. I caught a foul ball. Ron Negre was pitching. I don't remember who the hitter was. I think he was from Richmond,. I don't remember who the hitter was. I think he was from Richmond.

But I have the book at home. But they had like three or two guys named Thompson on the team. And Amalfitano was on the team. And it was a doubleheader, and they lost both games. One guy, was that Claire Thompson? I thought it was a guy.? There was a Tim Thompson. Yeah, Tim Thompson. And then there was an outfielder.

He scouted for St. Louis. Claire? C-L-A-R-E? I don't remember the first name. I remember a lot of those teams. But do you remember their affiliates? I remember when it was the Braves and then the Senators and then Boston. The Senators? Yeah.

Really? I'm not sure if there was one other one or not in my era. But it might even have the Phillies way back when. Now, Dano, I'd love to hear, this is from Dano, I would love to hear a bit of a deep dive into the Tim Johnson war stories. I feel like that's a controversy that kind of got swept under the carpet.

How does anyone retain a shred of credibility after that? Any thoughts on the infamous Tim Johnson war? Well, I don't think it was swept under the carpet. He was fired. It's true. I remember, I think he was fired on March 17th. Fergozzi showed up on March 3rd to scout, and I said, you're a couple of weeks early.

Like, just being, just joking. And he was the guy. But I've heard two stories about it, that Hankin didn't, it was a four-game series in boston and uh he wanted a four-game series like and you got clements you should be able to work it in there somehow and he wasn't scheduled to start he pitched at home against the white socks so um i heard that they went and asked Hankin to give up his start and go on Monday instead of Sunday. And I also heard that it wasn't Johnson.

It was Mel Queen who asked him, like, on Johnson's orders. So then Johnson went with the story that that's not pressure. Hankin had that continuous streak going but starts but starting on sunday starting on monday and starting on sunday would still be a start you know like me right unless the season and you know like one one game later or something but he uh he uh But he was wrong, and it was a problem. And I think he's basically, he got a job, I think, with. Mexican League, right? Yeah, but he had a job with somebody else, like scouting or something,

and he lasted a month because people made fun of him or teased him and everything. So last I heard, he was still in Mexico, like year round. Gotcha. Gotcha. This gentleman, Danny, would also like to know if there's any good Ricky Henderson stories from his time in Toronto that maybe we haven't heard. And then he goes on to say he's one of the most fascinating characters in Major League Baseball history.

And he asked me if I had ever heard the uh 30 for 30 doc about him ricky won't quit uh and i have it was uh it was excellent so uh any ricky henderson story well you remember when he got here he he wouldn't steal bases because turner ward had his number remember that turner had 24 and ricky didn't want to steal bases. Oh, sorry. And there was also Tommy Craig getting third-degree burns. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah, with an ice machine or something. Yeah, he told him to put, I'll tell you this, though, about Ricky. He put this new gadget on his foot,

and I don't know whether Tommy followed up the direction. Probably not Tommy. Probably Ricky followed up. And he left it on for too long, and he wound up with second-degree burns. So, I mean, it looked like for a while there that Tommy, he called me Craig, the trainer, was going to lose his job. So every time I would see Ricky, he'd say, how's that guy that treated me like a guinea pig?

You know, he'd never used it before. How's that guy? So finally, the time comes. I said, well, he got fired. So Ricky Henderson calls me over and he says, really, he got fired? He says, has he got a job? I said, I don't think so. He's trying to get one with Milwaukee.

He says, come and see me afterwards. So I go, and it was at Shea Stadium. I go downstairs after the game, and he gives me his number, and he says, here, have the guy phone me. So, I mean, I don't know what, you know, wasn't my business after that. Tommy did get a job with Milwaukee.

That was the, yeah, that's right. Tommy Craig, we could tell a lot of Tommy Craig stories. But Henderson, I remember Henderson shows up and he's not running. And they get him for the pennant race and he's not running. And I remember Henderson shows up, and he's not running. And they get him for the pennant race, and he's not running. And I remember writing, well, he's tied with Ed Sprague and stolen bases since August 1st with zero.

I remember writing that. And it turns out it was because, allegedly, that Turner Ward wore number 24, ricky wanted 24 that's remarkable and turner ward said that's good this is my number and blah blah blah what's it worth to you now this the story was that turner ward held out for 35 000 to but turn Turner Ward told me years later he eventually, because all the teammates came to him and said, give him the goddamn number. We need this guy to run.

We need, blah, blah, blah. And they called him in and said, please give him the number and blah, blah, blah. And he did it for a pair of cowboy boots and like a half a dozen of Ricky's bats because he really liked Ricky's bats. And that's what he ended up trading the number for.

And once Ricky wore 24, you know, steal second, steal third. You know what I mean? That's amazing. Yeah. That was the story on that one. Wow. Yeah. Turner Ward had the number.

I don't know what Turnerer went to from 24 but that's amazing ricky wouldn't run till he got his number tommy craig i guess i can't tell the best tommy craig story the amf story i'm sure you can but no no no it's it's it's but we we love tommy craig tommy craig one night he tommy had this real thick north carolina accent and he was about the funniest human being i ever met yep he and al ryan would be one on one a is the funniest humans i knew and tommy had just had a way of explaining stuff so one night we're all gathered around and that was probably tony fernandez or somebody had a boo-boo. And we always, in those days, we'd go to the trainer. The manager said, go ask Tommy, right?

So we'd go to say, Tommy, what's the matter with Fred tonight or Tony or whoever? And Tommy goes, yeah, and he holds up his hand. He says, he got a contusion about the size of a butter bean and bob says to him tommy for christ's sake what's a butter bean and tommy goes well it's a big y'all don't have butter beans up here but that was so for like a turkey for about how many years did we say whenever we saw anything, we'd say, but the size of a butter bean. That's great. So the one year we gave him our,

I think he tied for the good guy award or something. So I walk into the winter meetings and I see him and I said, hey, Tommy, how are you doing? He says, hey, thanks very much. I really appreciate it. I really appreciate that good guy award. That was really really something that's unbelievable that you guys would think that much of you and i went tommy i voted for the other guy that's that's like the year that i was vote manager of the year and cito was up uh that was the year cito came in 89 and he won he won the pennant but

Frank Robinson had taken over in the year before the Orioles had lost a thousand games remember when Frank came in and the Orioles won right the last weekend of the season and I voted for Frank Robinson over Cito

and I remember going I better this will get out so I went in and sat down with Cito. Uh, and I remember going, well, I better, uh, this'll get out. So I went in and sat down with Cito. I said, look, I just want you to know,

here's what I thought. And here's what I did. And just so you know, and I remember Cito looking at me very strangely. And I said, so, okay, you understand we're good.

Blah, blah, blah. So he left. And then it turns out, I heard years later that he immediately called in the PR guy and said, why did he do that? Why did he say that to me?

Why did he tell me? Like, he was a little confused. Right, why you would disclose that. Yeah, why would he tell me that? You know, I thought, well, just be honest, right? Preemptive strike. Yeah, you don't tell me that? I thought, well, just be honest, right? Preemptive strike. Yeah, you don't want a guy to turn around and say, who did you vote for?

Then you don't want to lie to anybody. Right. Okay, well, speaking of Cito, now I'm interested in this question because this other gentleman's name has already come up a couple of times. I thought he might be joining you guys. I had a fourth microphone in case Bob McCowan showed up,

but Sam wants to know what exactly went down with cito gaston and bob mccowan do either of you guys have uh the scoop there there's something about uh race allegations of racism yeah i think uh if i remember correctly uh uh i think he said it to jerry and then i yeah heather bird wrote it to the yeah he said uh timlin had a comebacker in milwaukee who was first and third and he looked at the guy at third and then he tried to turn a double play and the guy scored from third because they didn't get the double play right so anyways mccown said it was dumb or something. So Jerry said, is that an example of racism? And the criticism.

So I guess Cito said yes. But then earlier in the day, he had said Simmons and somebody at the Globe. I don't remember. I remember Simmons and McCowan were the two guys, and they had to have a meeting. They had a meeting with Beeston and sorted it all out, as far as I knew. I was never a part of it.

It was sorted out with Simmons. I know that. I don't know if it was with Sito. From Sito's perspective, he felt some criticism from McCowan and Simmons were race due to him being a black man? Is that what I'm understanding here? I think that's the way.

And I'll say this. The mail I used to get, most of the criticism I got about Sito Gaston was race-based most of it was i was stunned at some of the things i got in the mail really from people and said the percent like if you were to criticize him for a baseball it wouldn't be me criticizing would be these people would write in and and there was a lot of wow you know criticism and i used to say look i never saw a manager didn't get criticized at any level at any it doesn't matter who it is everybody every manager gets whacked well i you know i never had anybody write in and say well you know sparky anderson

screwed this up because he's a he's a white guy like nobody ever said that you know, Sparky Anderson screwed this up because he's a white guy. Like, nobody ever said that. You know what I mean? So when you'd get it kind of the other way, you'd go, whoa, I'm not, you know, you just kind of put it in the garbage like that. I remember Juan Guzman had a bad one in the postseason, and I wrote something like, it was like getting your third detention of the week. Watching him piss was like getting your third detention of the week watching a pitch was like getting your third detention of the week and having the teacher scratch your fingernails up and down the blackboard something very humorous so anyways clearly i don't know it's half an hour to first pitch and we got 12 guys there and they're all asking me questions the phone rings

i answer and the guy says you're no good racist i said pardon he said well what you wrote about guzman that was racist and i said well did you think he pitched well he says you're a racist and he hung up the phone and then he phoned back 10 minutes later and he phoned back 10 minutes later again you know like it's it wasn't what you need i needed or anybody would need basically just listen you could we could fill the hours with the with the crazy calls and letters that we used to get on all all subjects i i mean not to digress but i may have said this when i was on here in the summer but of all the things i covered in 40 years i would think the one that was unassailably a good news story is mike weirwood and the masters right right like i mean who is going to be upset by that right everybody

plucky canadian boy beats them all wins a major blah blah blah blah like like what's not to like right and i can remember getting letters and phone calls when i got home and it was what's wrong with you don't you know children are starving and you're writing about a guy hitting a ball with a stick what is wrong with you you are the worst kind of human being blah blah blah blah blah and i thought wow somebody's really got to be warped to go you know what i mean like not just to say i don't like golf right you know what i mean but to to take and this was before the internet like to to to well i guess it was emails too but but most people in those days when they were mad at you, they'd write a letter or type a letter and address an envelope and put a stamp on it and walk to the mailbox and blah, you know what I mean?

Like they would go out of their way. It wasn't just like now where somebody gets on a keyboard and 15 seconds later they've insulted you. So it took me a long while to realize, forget it. You can't please everyone. You can't win for trying, yeah. There's always going to be somebody upset somewhere. And don't worry, I'm not playing you off. I just wanted to play a tiny bit of George Strait's Troubadour for my buddy Bob here.

Still one of your favorite songs? Still one of my favorites. And my four-year-old grandson sings the chorus. How about that? Nice. Talk about raising them right in New Brunswick. Right, right. What's your audience?

It's going to spike in New Brunswick. I'll be checking the stats, how I do in Moncton. It's important to me. We're probably the only two guys we like cowboy music. We think Ken Burns' thing is great. I watched every episode. I loved it too. And I'm not even a country guy,

but I loved it. I loved you with Johnny Cash and Willie Nelson and the Carter family and all that. And Bob Wills in his Texas play. That's the only one I saw. Somebody emailed me. It was great.

Now, I'm playing a little music because I need to thank a couple of partners of Toronto Mike to hear real quick. Do you like bluegrass music, like banjo and stuff? Okay, you'd love, okay. Banjo Dunks musical sidekick, Douglas John Cameron. They perform as Doogie and Dunn. Here, let me get the right name of this here. Doogie and Dunn do Christmas.

This is actually happening tomorrow night. So hopefully you're listening to this episode right away. Because Thursday, December 19th at 7 p.m., their Christmas with Deborah Grover is happening. You can come for dinner at 6. It's at the Free Times Cafe. That's 320 College Street. Joyful music, playful banter. Again, banjo dunk at the Free Times Cafe.

It's in anticipation of a healthy and happy 2019 Christmas. And Brian Master is a salesperson with Keller Williams Realty Solutions Brokerage. If you write him an email at letsgetyouhome at kw.com, you can get on Brian's fantastic monthly mailing list where he sends out some good, valuable information about your home. So let's get you home at kw.com. Digging this.

I played you off with this last time you were on, Bob. I've never, ever played a different song to end an episode. Oh, really? Yeah, I always end with the same. I'm honored. Thank you. You should be honored here. Dave had to be played off with the same music as everybody else.

All right, I want to know. This is actually Jason. Who's the greatest Blue Jay pitcher of all time? Is it Dave Steeb or Roy Halladay? Dave Steeb. Buck says Dave Steve what do you say I would say

I would say the other guy in a photo finish either way the other guy he was kind of special I mean he didn't have any of the he didn't have any of the, like, the worst story I ever heard about Steve was, it wasn't George Bell getting angry, it was Mosby.

Like, Steve threw his arms up and showed him up, and he committed the dugout and challenged him to a fight. I mean, the other guy, how they just straight ahead, you know, all head full. But what about just strictly like pitching performance? Like if we put aside character and all that? Yeah, watching from the seats, I guess you'd say it would be Steve. But close, as you said, right?

Oh, yeah. I think it's two tremendous pitchers. The errors were so different that if, you know, if Steve had pitched in this modern era with the emphasis on statistics and esoteric statistics, shall we say, the way it is. He'd have won three Cy Youngs for sure. I think two guaranteed, probably three, I think. And I think he'd seven all-star teams, I think.

Now, mind you, they had some bad teams. He was the guy. And, you know, I remember Steve with the, you know, we covered when he had the back-to-back no-hitters with two in the ninth inning, and both of them got broken up on flares. Loop singles. Well, the first one was a routine ground ball by Julio Franco, and the second baseman's in position and hit a hole in the field at old Cleveland Stadium,

bounced about 15 feet in the air. And the other one was a jam shot by Jim Traber, remember? Yeah, McGriff if he turns the other way. He turned the wrong way, and then he turned back, and it was four inches over his left. But, I mean, Steve finally got his no-hitter. Yeah. And one of the great weird moments in history, I mean, Steve finally got his no-hitter. Yeah. And one of the great weird moments in history, I thought,

Blue Jay history for certain, was the last game of, what was it, 98 or 99. I'm going to say 98. The Bobby Higginson home run. I was there. When Roy Halladay has a, it was a perfect game, home run i was there when roy halliday has a it was a perfect game but two out the ninth inning and bobby higginson hits a home run to ruin the perfect game but dave steve had had rejoined the blue jays as a relief pitcher and steve sitting in the bullpen never gets out of his seat, reaches up and catches the home run. Wow.

I didn't know that. In the bullpen. Oh, yeah. And I just thought, holy shit, like this is a Twilight Zone movie. Amazing. This is, you could not write that. If you wrote that in a Hollywood movie, everybody would chase you out. What a cliche, corny. Yeah, it couldn't happen.

But here's the guy, the king of the two out, losing the no hitters. And he just sat there and it was like the ball was hit exactly to him. He just reached up and caught it. Wow. It was, it was. That's unbelievable. Too bizarre for words.

Mark Hebbshire wants to know, what baseball writers did you guys most enjoy reading and why? And he wants to chime in with his answer. Mark Heb guys most enjoy reading and why and he wants to chime in with his answer mark hebbshire by the way host of the best sports podcast you can imagine for this market hebsey on sports everyone should subscribe but he says mine was roger angel roger angel yeah are you allowed to plug other podcasts yeah yeah yeah of course yeah i produced that podcast of course the course. The guy for me was Watson Spolstra in Detroit. I forget which paper.

But I was in Kingston at the time, and we got like maybe three or four papers in the newsroom. But if you went down to editorial, they got the Winnipeg Free Press and, I don't know, the Detroit papers. And I'd read him the game story, and then there'd be notes, and there'd be a sidebar, and I'd think, oh, my goodness, this guy must work his butt off. And it's his grandson that coaches Miami, I think, basketball.

And anyways. Yes, Eric. Eric? Is that Miami, I think, basketball. And anyways. Yes, Eric. Eric? Is that it? I think so. Yeah, I think the coach. So that was the first guy that really, I mean, there wasn't any baseball here. So, I mean, it was not that I was dreaming about being a baseball player.

I guess when I started reading, it was people like Joe Falls. Yeah, Joe Falls was a good one. Phil Pepe? Yeah. The Pepe guy? New York. We all worship Jim Murray and Red Smith, and I'm 19 years old,

and the first time I ever wrote a baseball story was I was in Yankee Stadium I was doing a story on Dave Pagan a Canadian up in Saskatchewan I was 19 I got a press pass and I went down and and Marty Appel was the PR guy and Marty had said to me, and this was in the old Yankee Stadium where you went up to the Lodge level and then down through the crowd and then you climbed over a railing

to get in the press box. They had a little ladder and the press box kind of hung from the Lodge level and you got into it that way. But after the game, Marty had said, oh, listen, after the game, you know, you wait for the traffic, go down to the lounge, the press lounge, and you can have a drink and blah, blah, blah.

So I'm like, okay, I'm going. And I go down and sit down at a table, and Marty says, sit over there. And in comes Yogi Bear and White table and Marty says, sit over there. And, and in comes Yogi Bear and Whitey Ford and Red Smith was there too. And I'm sitting there like a 19 year old kid. Uh, I'm drinking Coke. They didn't have Diet Coke.

I'm drinking a Coke. And these guys are drinking whiskey and telling Casey Stengel stories and telling stories. Oh, this is what I want to do. What about the last time you were on? Did you tell the story in Oakland in 87? Oh, about DiMaggio?

Yeah, yeah, I did. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that one too, but I mean, don't worry about reruns. Don't worry about reruns here. Robert Whitten wants to know if, he goes, I'd like to ask if Carlos Delgado is the best Toronto Blue Jay not in the Baseball Hall of Fame it seems his career numbers

are just below Hall of Fame caliber thanks Mike keep up the good work so I had to keep that part in there some praise for me so who do you guys think is the best Blue Jay not in the Baseball Hall of Fame I think it would either be Delgado or McGriff,

if you consider McGriff a Blue Jay. Yeah, yeah, I think for this purpose, yeah. McGriff was, what, seven homers short? Yeah. You never heard he had a pimple, you know? Like he never was in that steroid talk or anything. Right, right. Dugato had a hell of a career.

There's no question. He's not, he's not far off either. The guy, the guy, somebody explained it to me once. So his hip, the hip,

it fits into the socket like this. Okay. It moves smoothly. So his came out like this. So what they normally do is they shave this down. But what the doctor decided to do was to put a groove put a groove in there interesting and uh the one guy told him to sue and he said no i'm done because then he then he went and did it with who's the famous guy in veil the guy from

mcmaster uh anyways he went and had it done redone, but he couldn't make the comeback, so he retired. But he didn't go out suing, you know. The amazing thing for the Hall of Fame, and we're both voters. We voted, what, 25 years now. Oh, 91, I think, was my first year. It's like 28, 29 years. So the amazing thing to me is that the way that these committees

are putting in guys, you know, two years ago they put in Jack Morris. Well, Jack Morris got 74% or 73 percent of the baseball writers votes it was so close it was undeniable and then last year they put in Harold Baines who one year got five percent of the vote and this year they put in Ted Simmons who never got five percent of the vote he got three percent of the vote and I would say at this point if you're putting in jack morris at 74 you pretty much agreed with the baseball writers who pretty much agreed that jack was a hall of famer right but when you're putting in harold baines and no disrespect to harold baines terrific guy and a good ball player but if if you're putting in Harold Baines and

5% of the baseball writers was the most that ever voted for him, and Ted Simmons, 3.7% of the baseball writers is the most that ever voted for him, why are the baseball writers even participating anymore? Because

we're, are we that out to lunch that that 96 percent of us were so wrong that we missed ted and simmons was before my time like i've only voted for 25 years and i think he was up once and it was maybe the year before i started right so like at this like i mean come on there needs to be a reckoning of this in my opinion anyway no good point so what i'm saying is if somewhere down the road and i know it's happening because of tony larusa larusa's strong arming the committees okay fine fred or carlos delgado fred mcgirt they need a champion yep they need a guy to go in and argue deep and hard on their behalf at this point because the baseball writers we didn't give them enough okay that's fine we're out of the picture now because they're putting

in three percent guys right so we're out of the picture now because they're putting in 3% guys. So we're out of the, so they need a champion. They need a strong voice. Like an advocate or whatever. Yeah, yeah. To go in and steer those committees to them. Because, I mean, God bless Harold Baines,

but John Olerud was a better ball player than Harold Baines, in my opinion. How about you? I remember first day Olerud plays at Clearwater. I'm standing on the first base fence, you know, waiting to, I don't know, it's the sixth or seventh inning. So Vukovic, the first base coach, comes over and he says,

where did that first baseman play last year? He said, he told me Washington. I said, yeah, he played in Washington. He said, yeah, he played in Washington. He said, where, at Yakima or someplace? I said, no, no, University of, or maybe it was Washington State. Yeah, Washington State. So he goes, I'm going to tell Boa. Boa doesn't, because the first time up, he had a double down the right field line.

Second time up, he had a double down the left field line. Chalk both times, right? So Vukovicic comes over and he says i told boa he says he doesn't believe me i said well here's my guide so he went in he went in and bought both through the guide out onto the grass you ever seen a swing like that like like is that the sweetest swing robinson cano i would say is a very close and they run at the same speed yeah pretty much the difference is john would try yeah yeah and kenya would just he's always i remember that one year they were going for the or he he had he had that was a guy's name webb he was uh he had the doubles record and john earl webb 51 or and John had a shot. Earl Webb, 51 or something.

John had a shot at it going into the final month, and John says, well, some of those probably should have been triples. He stretched those triples into doubles. Right, right, right. Hey, speaking of the Hall of Fame vote real quick, what are your takes on anyone who's been linked to steroid use during the steroid era? Like, would you vote for somebody who had any link to the steroids?

I treat them all differently because, I mean, they're like snowflakes. I mean, the different circumstances and everything. But I voted for Bonds, and I voted for Clemens. I mean, if Major League Baseball has allowed Bonds to be the hitting coach of the Marlins, they haven't kicked him out, he's allowed to be on the ballot, who am I to be the iron fist here that I'm going to rule and be the wisdom of all? And besides, there's guys, people say there's two guys in there,

or some guys in there anyways, that have been used as steroids. Yeah, like Bob, I treat everybody individually. And I have voted for Clemens and Bonds for nine years now, I think. Until somebody shows me who was using who wasn't prove it i to me i just take it as information that yes this guy was linked yes this guy was this guy was not linked i don't believe you you know what i mean i mean i don't know for sure i just take it all as information and it certainly isn't going to stop me from voting for bonds or clemens when push comes to shove i i got a lot of reasons i'm not voting for sammy soza that's one of the reasons

i don't vote for and and if i weren't voting for bonds and clemens that would be one of the ones reasons i didn't vote. But I do. So there are pros and cons for everybody. And there's an argument to be said that both Bonds and Clemens would be Hall of Famers before they started using the steroids. Sure. That's entirely possible. Not that that's your argument, but yeah. Yeah, we go through this every year. I know.

In a couple of years, they'll take away my vote because I have to reapply for the right to vote every year. And once they consider me too retired, they'll take it away. At which point, I'll be completely fine with it. I don't like getting shit every year for what I do and what I don't do. Is Larry Walker a Hall of Famer? I think he is. I vote for him yeah the line i was going to say i used to i used to be asked about the hall of fame voting and i used to say it's 75 it's a long process and i wish people would get

this interested and this excited about our about our president or our prime minister. Sure. I don't say that anymore. Well, you know what's happening today. Why not? Okay. Brent Cardy says, is it fair that Charlie Montoyo gets to wear 25,

which is Delgado's old number, but no one can wear number 19? He wants to know, because I guess they don't, they aren't letting you wear uh joey batts number there but you can wear delgado's number any thoughts on that well they had a policy which i thought i didn't i didn't agree with but they uh remember when it started that level of excellence they weren't a level of excellence they weren't retiring anybody's number yeah and i think the first guy they did was no god um alomar right i don't know that sounds right to me that sounds right and then and then how it is right and jackie robinson yeah but

certain things i don't pay attention to numbers is one of them uh mike ragotsky says i'd love to hear why they think the jays didn't intentionally walk george brett during the 1985 alcs by the way to mike i want to just say I'm suffering from the same thing. That was everything to me. The drive of 85, as your paper called it. I was reading the Star. Apologies, I love the sun now, but I was reading the Star Sports at that time.

It was everything to me. That whole season was magic. I think we won 99 games in the regular season. We were up 3-1 in that ALCS against Kansas City. I was ready to be World Series champions. I still kind of can't believe what happened. Good question by Mike Rogatsky. Well, the answer is that was the plan.

Don't throw any strikes. Don't get beat by George Brett. And Doyle decided he had a better plan. Doyle Alexander. Yes, of course. Oh, man. That was pitching or not pitching to George Brett is the cause of Jimmy Williams' greatest meltdown at me

when Jimmy had, and I'll say in 85, I did not cover the Blue Jays. I went and covered the Royals. I was with the Royals for a month, the last month of the season, because it was clear the Jays were going to win the East. So I went out and stayed with the Royals for a month, the last month of the season, because it was clear the Jays were going to win the East. So I went out and stayed with the Royals, and they had a critical series with about two weeks left in the season with Oakland. And whoever won the series would be in first place.

And if it was Oakland, I'd go with Oakland. If it's the Royals, I'd stay with the Royals. So Brett had the three-game series. I think Brett had like nine ribbies, three or four homers, about 11 hits. It's insane. And they swept Oakland, and that was the end of the pennant race. So I stayed with the Royals. And I just watched George Brett do these incredible things down that month.

I think he hit around 385 or something and and he was just you couldn't get him out i don't know how he only hit three whatever because i never saw anybody get him out you know but so then as you know the jays blow that thing i always put that on bobby cox but but uh so i don know, a year or two later, Jimmy Williams is managing, and it's one of those classic situations. First base is open. There's a tie runs at second.

George would have been the winning run if he'd, you know, walked him. So, of course, they don't walk him, and he hits a double and then scores on an error, and Kansas wins the bottom of the night. So we go down, and i'm sitting up there going walk to some bitch walk them i've just watched them destroy teams walk them walk them walk them and of course they don't walk them jimmy doesn't walk them so we go down and we're all standing around his office and the steam's coming out jimmy's ear and i'm and you throw a couple of softballs questions you're kind of and then i go ah jimmy when it came to the at bat with brett in the ninth inning were you thinking and he starts throwing stuff and he's yelling and he calls me a 10 letter word and then he calls me a 12 letter word and then back to the 10 letter word and get out of

my fucking office and blah blah blah and I go okay Jimmy we'll see you tomorrow I guess that's a no we kind of go out to the office and I remember Jimmy Key sitting there and Jimmy's kind of looking and the whole clubhouse you can pin drop because you can hear Jimmy

and Jimmy says what's he yelling about and i said well i had to ask him about not walking george brett and keith says well there's 25 guys in here won't ask the same question so the next day i got a guy well i gotta we can't have this hanging in the air you know so i go in go in, and Jimmy's sitting on his desk looking at the ground smoking cigarettes. And I said, Jimmy, I got to speak to you. He said, come on in. Shut the door. And we kind of talked it out.

And I meant to say, Jimmy, we're not. And he called me a second- 10 letter word you know and i said jimmy i'm not second guessing i watched this guy kill everybody i'd walk him a hundred times out of a hundred if it were me i said we're not asking you because we think it's the wrong move we're asking you because we need a bloody quote right that's you know what i mean like and jimmy got okay and we started that out but he never jimmy and i knew we were always kind of like this except at the dice table that time in puerto rico oh that's a good story i'll get to this so i but i gotta tell this jimmy key story jimmy

key had a good sense of humor okay so they get david cohen pretty big news yeah so they take the field that night. They get edged by Milwaukee, 22 to 2 or something like that. I remember that. They had her number. So the guy goes up, some TV guy who was not there for the 4 o'clock or 5 o'clock press conference, he says to Jimmy Key, he says, where's David Cone, whose locker was right beside him?

And Jimmy Key says, well, he was charting, but he got tired. He had to go home. So we go to Puerto Rico in 87. 87, springtime. They haven't had this Pirates series in memory of Roberto Clemente in eight or ten years. So anyways, I'm following Perk off the plane. We go down the game.

It's in rain. Yep. And I get hugged by this lady. She says, do you know who that was? I said, no. I didn't even see her coming. I was worried about the slippery steps. He says, that was Vera Clemente.

Who just passed about a month ago. Yeah. So anyways, both games get banged but anyways there's a there's a casino in a hotel casino in the hotel so i'm not a i'm not a big gambler like here but i think i was up 200 on blackjack like maybe my second or third time in so i'm like i'm like walking around like this. And all of a sudden, it's like out of the movies. I hear this streaming and yelling and everything.

And I walk over. I thought, what's going on? It's like James Bond or whatever. And, you know, Papa needs the new puppies or whatever. Daddy needs new shoes or whatever those sayings are. So anyways, I look. Who's got the dice? It's Perky. Wow. the new puppies or whatever daddy needs new shoes or whatever those sayings are right so so anyways i look who's got the dice it's perky wow and as one guy said he was so hot that even the mormons were betting yeah that's exactly right and jimmy williams was at the other end of the table and

jimmy was betting with the shooter and that was the hottest roll i ever had wow i went i started with it was a five dollar table. I think he won, I went like $3,400 and Jimmy went a couple of thousand and Jimmy's down there saying, you throw one more hard way and I'll give you our cuts.

Who's the best manager in Blue Jay franchise history in your humble opinions? I think it has to be, well, you go ahead. I'd say the guy who won two series cito yeah that's what i said uh robert and i used to argue about that all the time he always used to say it was gibbons and

i said no no i said you'd go in front of on law and order the new york judge the guy said uh the evidence please and cito go like this with the two rings, and case dismissed. The argument always was, oh, well, those teams were stacked. Anybody could win. And I say, that's fine. Now let's look at Bob Cox. Three first ballot Hall of Famers in his rotation for 15 straight years. He won one.

Right. One World Series. Nobody got beat with the best team more than bob cox although it looks like dave roberts is going to give him a run for his money right right but but cox always got beat with the with the better team you give him a two-oh lead he'd get beat right happened all the time cedar didn't get beat with the best team and that's worth something the thing the thing like when Devon White came over here, his reputation in Anaheim was... Head case.

Yeah. Raider sent him to Edmonton because he wouldn't hit the ball on the ground. He struck out too much, okay? Cito says, for me, that first year, that was his best year managing. He said, you do whatever you want. You're only leading off for once. And Alomar was considered petulant because at San Diego, when Templeton got hurt, he would not move over.

So the night Schofield breaks his leg in 93, Nelson and I are sitting in the, people forget about Dick Schofield, but he was a shortstop. Right, that's when we went in the, people forget about Dick Schofield, but he was a shortstop. Right, that's when we went and got Tony, right? Dick Jr.

After, after, after, after Manny Lee left. Yeah. So we're, Nelson and I are sitting there

talking to Cito and knock, knock on the door and it's Robbie. He says, hey Skip, he says, he says,

I know we got Alfredo, but you know, if you want anybody to play, you know, after five or six days, I'll play shortstop. Yep. And away he went, I know we got Alfredo, but, you know, if you want anybody to play, you know, after five or six days, I'll play shortstop. And away he went, you know. So what he did, he had the ability to get guys who were here

that could play up to here. Right. And what's a manager or coach's job? To get players to play to the best of their ability for them, not to be sour, not to mope. Right. To play. And that's what he did better than anybody.

Forget the X's and O's. That's all different. A good fan can manage X's and O's. I mean, everybody knows who to pinch hit and where to bunt, and not that anybody does any of that anymore. But the strategy is easy to figure out. That's not the big game. The big game is getting the Devon Whites,

who, like Bob says, Rooster hated him. Sam of the Miners, he's a head case. They got him cheap. They got him for nothing. Was it Luis Soho? And for Cito, he was an all-star for three years, four years in a row. And then when he left, two years later, he was out of baseball?

As soon as he was away, two or three years later, he was out of baseball. Where'd he go? He went to Arizona. He went to Marlins. Well, he wanted to be closer to his home. No, that was later, wasn't it? Yeah. Yeah.

To his wife's home, yeah. Yeah. Now, I mentioned Tony Fernandez there because Dick Schofield goes down. Tony, is that his third time, I think? Or is that maybe his third tour of duty in the city? I think he came back a couple of times. Yeah, yeah. Ash brought him back.

I think only Wendell Clark had more tours of duty in this city. I think he might have had four tours of duty. But when I had Jerry Howarth on this show in the summer, he talked about how Tony needed a new kidney. And I'm curious if either of you have any idea how Tony Fernandez is doing health-wise right now. I saw him at a banquet, the Ontario Sports Hall of Fame banquet, and he looked healthy, yeah.

Okay, good. Was he at that? I saw you there. I didn't see you. Yeah, I saw him outside where they were selling the auction stuff. Yeah, I didn't see him. Him and his wife. Clara?

Clara was there too? Oh, good. Can I interrupt? I got a Dick Schofield story. Oh, yeah, please, of course. And remember I was talking about Steve catching the Bobby Higginson home run, which is a moment you couldn't make up. And this was my all-time favorite blue jay goofball moment everybody knows joe uh

bill mazaroski 1960 it's a walk-off home run for the pirates dick scofield senior was a bench warmer for the 1960 pirates and when And when Mazeroski, you know, he hits a home run and comes around the bases and whooping and hollering, Pittsburgh going berserk, and he jumps on home plate, and there's a mob of guys, and there's a famous picture of him just about to land on home plate. And number 11, the bottom corner,

is Dick Schofield Sr. So, fast forward to 93, the day before the World Series, I see Dick Schofield Jr. And I know all about this history. And I said, you've seen,

you must have seen the clip a thousand times. You see your dad in the clip. He says, I see my dad in the clip every time that plays he says we got the picture on the wall at home he says i always look uh and there's my dad number 11 and schofield's junior says wouldn't it be great if this could happen if somebody hit a walk-off home run for us and i ended up up in the picture. Nine days later, I wrote that. I wrote that in the star.

I remember going back and pulling the clipping out because I couldn't believe what would have been there. And nine days later, Joe Carter hits the second walk-off home run in baseball history. And if you put the two pictures side by side, Dick Schofield Jr. is about six feet from where Dick Schofield Sr. was. Wow.

I got goosebumps. Like, that's the most insane coincidence. And still, to this day, I believe those are the only two times World Series have ended on a home run. Yeah, the only two walk-off home runs in World Series history. And that's why I love, like, Kawhi Leonard, I understand he's the prime minister, he's God, everything's great. The shot against Philly was fantastic,

but it's as great as it was and as fantastic as it was, it doesn't beat a World Series winning walk-off home run. Dave, I'm with you. You need that same shot to be game seven of the NBA championship. Game seven of the championship, not in a tie game. Right, that's right. If you miss, you still have overtime. In a second round series.

Fantastic though it is. Right. If it doesn't go in, doesn't mean they lose. You know what I mean? It doesn't mean there's a seventh game. Yeah, there's only an upside. You can win or you can go to overtime. There is no...

Yeah, yeah. And it's a wonderful thing and I'm never... And you have two more rounds to go. He's smart, but let's not put that ahead of the Carter thing, which is too...

Right. Well, even though we're so starving in Toronto sports, I mean, now we have this now. But the bat flip gets elevated. That was the seventh inning. People have to remind people, oh, yeah, by the way, that wasn't the ninth inning.

There's been lots bigger home runs in this team's history than that. Yeah. Lots? Because. I would say. Alomar? I would say that, yes. Alomar, Sprague, and Carter are three big things. Yeah, Sprague. I would say that yes Alomar Sprague and Carter are three yes I would say that that inning

top and bottom 56 inning 56 minutes yeah there's never been another like correct I mean they had they had cops marshalling at Queens Park that's how scary it was because because uh since you two did this and Martin got lazy and right flipped it back and you know and people and and the initial thing from dale scott is right no no and people threw fifteen thousand dollars worth of beer on the field yeah and gibbons gibbons said he says he said i figured it was beaston but then he said i saw one fly by me and it was full so i knew it wasn't beast okay quickly because uh i i know we're up against the two hours but trust me dave i'm winding down here i promise but i want a question

about uh that 2015 2016 you know the two years we make the alcs they seem like so long ago and so so recent at the same time it's sort of a strange uh dichotomy there but okay we my question from uh who i give credit for, Fast Time Milan, is Gregor Chisholm, who writes for your old paper, Dave, he mentioned in the Star that the Jays of 2015-2016 were one of the most dysfunctional teams out there behind the scenes. Can Elliot, can Bob, I'll say, but can Elliot, who was covering the team or even Perkins, add any insight into this? The public rarely ever heard anything. Have you heard this?

Anything? Okay. I have no idea what Gregor's talking about. Okay, so we don't, because I mean, I never heard anything. It seemed like they all liked each other. Were there examples? No, I have no more than that. I was hoping one of you guys would.

I mean, what did they, when Price, what were they? They were 50 and 51 when Price and Tula Witz got here. Yeah. And they won like 700 or 600%. Well, they were 57 and 14 or something. I mean, how could anybody be dysfunctional? I know. I know.

I don't know. Maybe we'll let that one go. No idea. No idea. All right. We'll have to ask. I mean, maybe we'll let that one go. No idea. No idea. All right. We'll have to ask. I'll get Gregor back on. You want another goofy story about that, about the bat flip game?

Okay. I want the story about the bat flip, but real quick, because then I think we'll close on the bat flip story. Do either of you have any insight into how Damaso Garcia is doing? This is a question for me, because I remember when he threw out a first pitch in a World Series game, and they were talking like it was end of days for Damaso. This is a question for me because I remember when he threw out a first pitch in a World Series game and he looked, they were talking like it was end of days for Damas. So this is like, you know,

early 90s. I asked Alfredo if I could go and visit him. I don't know. 15 years ago, maybe? I don't know. And he said he doesn't recognize his wife. So he's in

I don't know if it's Boca Raton or Miami. I forget where he told me it was. So he's still alive, but doesn't sound like he's, okay. Just curious about that. Love Damsel Garcia. He had fire in the belly and always dug that. That's why I love George Bell so much. And fire in the uniform.

Right. Yes, that's correct. Those are my guys. I like those guys. Like George Bell is still my favorite player. Bob knows more about George Bell than anybody. George was Bob's guy. The big question, although purple butt, that was the bear.

Yeah, that was the bear. That's right, yeah. I miss that. But the big question we ask each other every once in a while, we're standing in an airport or whatever, who's the guy you had the an airport or whatever who's the guy you had the worst relationship with and who's the guy you had the best relationship with and george is the answer to both exactly yeah yeah yeah they'd never i kind of missed george when he was

gone i didn't like him when he was there to deal with but i sure missed him when he was gone all right here's a taste of george and then I want to hear this bat flip story. Hi, I'm George Bell. You listen to Toronto Mike. How many opportunities will I have to play that? That sounds like George. How did you work that out? Hebsey, Mark Hebsey

bumped into him at a charity golf event and mentioned that Toronto Mike was his biggest fan and then George recorded that. So thank you, Mark, and thank you, George. And all right, let's close with this. It's just a personal story, but the year they beat the White Sox in the semifinals in 93,

a good friend of mine named Joe Feinstein was living in Chicago at that time. He worked for an advertising agency. And he was in the process of shutting everything down and moving to Thailand, where he lived for the next 20-odd years. So I got him tickets to the last game in Chicago. And he went to the game. The Jays won. They eliminate Chicago, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

So Joel goes to Thailand, and in the intervening 25 years or whatever, I saw him every couple of years. He'd come back. And we stayed friends long distance, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So he was coming up for a visit during the playoffs, and I said, well, I got tickets for the bat flip game. Do you want to go? And he says, sure, I'd love to go.

It'd be great. We've got no baseball in Thailand. So he and I went to the ball game, and he sees the bat flip, and he sees the Jays, and they win it. And I said, you know, it's been like 25 years since you went to – he said the last ball game he was at was the Jays playoffs in 93, and then he comes to this ball game and sees that.

So those were – he had no baseball in the intervening 25 years. And then sadly, not long after, he had a heart attack and passed away. Oh. But those were he had no baseball in the intervening 25 years and then sadly not long after he had a heart attack and passed away but those were it was a good luck charm those were his two games but that would ruin you right because when you went to one of those regular slog four-hour games and like as we're leaving he says he says yeah so the jays want another playoff series what's the big deal it It happens every time I come. Because there's nothing less significant than a regular season baseball game. But that's fantastic.

Gentlemen, is there anything you want to spit into the mic just before I play us off? This has been an absolute thrill. Yes, likewise. I was just going to say that I bought the strip of tickets in 93 as well. But my wife said, no, we can't you can't uh take my son to it he can he'll go to game seven i was in 93 so he he was about seven or eight then so he's he's

still waiting for tickets to game seven okay oops and dave any any final uh no no no no no it's always a pleasure to be with this guy here. He's the best right here. There's a reason he's in the Hall of Fame. He's the guy. I think you are both pretty fantastic, and I loved reading you, and I loved recording with you,

and basically what I'm going to do is spend the next 12 months trying to talk you guys into doing this again next December. So the campaign starts now. But Merry Christmas to, and Happy Holidays to all baseball

fans who just got to hear two hours of Bob Elliott and Dave Perkins talking ball. And I think that made a lot of people very happy. Same to you and your family, Michael. Yep, same to everyone. And that brings us to the end of our 561st show.

You can follow me on Twitter. I'm at Toronto Mike. Bob is at Elliot Baseball. And I can't find Dave on Twitter because he's not there. So don't go looking for... You're not on Twitter, right, Dave? I would never have trusted myself. That's pretty smart.

Our friends at Great Lakes Brewery are at Great Lakes Beer. Palma Pasta is at Palma Pasta. Sticker U is at Sticker U. Brian Master, you write him at letsgetyouhomeatkw.com. And Banjo Dunk is at Banjo Dunk. Don't hit your head, gentlemen. I'm going to save these people from concussions here. See you all next time.