Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - Bob Mackowycz: Toronto Mike'd #246

Episode Date: June 23, 2017

Mike chats with Bob Mackowycz, Jr. about his dad, his relationships with Marek and Strombo, his years at Off the Record, CBC Radio 2, TSN 1050, his health struggles and his new podcast with Matthew Cauz.

Welcome to episode 246 of Toronto Mic'd, a weekly podcast about anything and everything, proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, a local independent brewery producing fresh craft beer, and propertyinthesix.com, Toronto real estate done right. I'm Mike from torontomike.com and joining me is Bob McElwitz Jr. Can I call you Bobby Mac? If you wish, although

I think it's been taken. It's been taken. That's true. It's great. Nice to finally meet you. Sorry to interrupt you,

but they used to call me the hockey outsider Bobby Mac because Bob McKenzie was the hockey insider. I recently had the pleasure of sitting down with Bob McKenzie

and that was a personal thrill. I recently had the pleasure of sitting down with Bob McKenzie, and that was a personal thrill. He's a great guy. He's not just a... People forget what a good writer he is, because he was the editor of the Hockey News for years and came out of the Toronto Star, Northern Ontario papers before that. But when he sits down to write a piece,

he's terrific. Great speaker, great guy. And he's got a great gig, because he works hard till July 1, which I guess that's the free agent frenzy day. But then he gets to disappear, like, just to a cottage for how long? Until the season starts up again. One thing I really like about him is he's serious about disappearing, too.

We used to have to book him when he was done. He was done. Seriously. Yeah, no tweets or anything unless something big happens. Nothing. Zero. Unless, like, the Arizona Coyotes trade their entire team. And because it's Arizona, that's debatable whether he'd break his cottage statement. Because it's Arizona, it's also possible.

You know, friends of yours have been here. It was a long time to get you into my basement. That's true. To lure you down here. Jeff Merrick came over and we did almost two hours together one day. Strombo came over and we did almost two hours.

And I was thinking, you know, and we'll get into this later in deeper detail, but I need the third of the three amigos to complete the set. We don't really travel as a set anymore, unfortunately, but we still all talk a lot. And for anybody who doesn't know, Georgie, Jeffy, and I started together in radio.

Here's the other thing. So after my little break, we're going to start there and learn about how the three amigos came to be. Because I think that's really fascinating. Because Strombo, he's now Canada's boyfriend. You know that? He's the only person I can imagine who could call himself your boyfriend, George, and not solicit a punch in the nose. He got away with that, I noticed. That's not an easy trick to pull. I don't think it should be possible.

And Merrick, of course, is another. He's not the hockey insider. He's a excellent hockey insider. Merrick's a genius. And we can get more into that in a bit. I've known Merrick since we were 10 years old and he's not the hockey insider he's an excellent hockey insider Merrick's a genius and we can get more into that in a bit. I've known Merrick since we were 10 years old and he's a genius There's stories there, we're going to get there for sure but first I just want to tell you right off the bat

I listened to your dad on Q107 6 o'clock rock report you sound a lot like him Do I really? I take that as a great compliment You sound a lot like him I always thought when I heard your voice, I thought, yeah, he sounds like his old man. That's interesting.

Because I am junior, just because I work in the industry. If I didn't work in the industry, I probably wouldn't be. But Bob Sr., for years, did the Six O'Clock Rock Report, eventually was the program director of Q107. And really, really great guy. Yeah, I'm glad you wanted to start there, because I'd love to talk about him. I debated whether, when I was going to introduce you at the beginning, I wrote guy. Yeah, I'm glad you wanted to start there because I'd love to talk about him. I debated whether, when I was going to introduce you at the beginning,

I wrote my little thing, and I wrote Bob Makowitz, but then I actually added Junior because I didn't, I mean, the fact is, people like me know your dad from the local airwaves, so I think you need the Junior.

It's generational for sure. If you used to listen to my dad on the air, and he only did on-air stuff really until about the late 80s. And then after that, he was strictly behind the scenes. But before that, he was principally a broadcaster and an untrained one completely. He was in a PhD program at U of T. I was a little kid. I guess I would have been about seven at the time. My sister had just been born. And being a professor is a tough gig. It's not a lot of cash. And he kind of looked and thought, am I going to have to move my family to rural Saskatchewan to do a gig?

Right. And then a guy he knew named John Paracall, who was a PhD candidate with him, who eventually got into radio, said, I can set you up with the Slate family and talk to Gary Slate about maybe going over and doing something. And they really hit it off. And they gave my dad a two-minute concert feature called Street Beat that he would do literally. And I remember my dad, my house was small. We lived just off of Ronci's. And my sister and I shared a room at the back of the house.

It wasn't very big. And I remember my dad would put up a chart of phonetics and practice his diphthongs. So he knew he was getting into broadcasting. And I'd see my dad, he'd be going like, aw, yee, aw. Yeah, I've seen these exercises. And he would do them. And eventually he got on the air.

And from that, it kind of spilled into this six o'clock program, which became quickly a mainstay of Toronto Radio. Because back in those days, and I've had this explained to me by people like Scott Turner and stuff, where there was like laws like on FM in Canada, where you had to have, they called it foreground programming or something. I'm just trying to remember. You needed a certain number of hours of programs like the Six O'Clock Rock Report.

And if you remember, Jane Houghton had barometer. Right. So there was actually a spoken word content measure that you had to hit. Bill Carroll, did he come along after Jane? I remember Bill Carroll on cue as well. But yeah, there were a lot of this I think FM radio lost a lot when we lost spoken word content on it like now it's become

this sort of relentless hit churning machine where one song after another don't give anyone a reason to flip away just keep them hooked keep them hooked tease ahead and that may have the endless tease yeah it really does it works but it also makes it much less interesting. True that. I remember shows on CFNY had Live in Toronto and different shows like this. Which my buddy George would eventually host. See, it's all coming together already. It's a very small world, isn't it?

It's funny because my dad introduced George and I. We can get to that in a bit. Yeah, very shortly. But I also thought that my... George is to this generation a little bit cut out of the same mold that my dad was for his generation, where you have a very smart person who has a broad cultural frame of reference to draw from. Yes. And kind of a street essence to him, too. Like, my dad was a street guy.

He was in gangs in Parkdale back in the 60s. He told me once he got 2% in math. What? Yeah, he got 2%. Which is hard to do. It's hard to get that low of a score. Well, because zero indicates you didn't try, but two suggests you actually answered something.

Right, because zero is easy. 2% is tough. I'm telling you, that's an accomplishment in itself. I'm so glad you made that association. It's true. Because my dad always said... I can get you a zero, no problem. Just don't do anything.

I was so bad, I got 2%. I thought maybe he was going to the store to buy milk, and he got 2%. Back in the days when we drank 2% milk. Right. Well, what do you drink? Do you drink milk anymore? Very little, very little.

And I think for the same reason that everybody kind of cut back on it. But help me, because I'm having trouble cutting back. My buddy tells me, he says to me, and he looks me in the eyes, my buddy Mark, and he says, are you a baby cow? He asks me, are you a baby cow? And of course, I'm like, no, Mark, I'm not a baby cow.

Then why are you drinking cow's milk? And his kids don't even, like Mike, you met my 15-month-old, like she drinks homogenized, homo milk all the time because her pediatrician wants her to drink homogenized milk. I personally drink 1%, but I do drink milk, and I'm sure it's killing me. I've been weaning it out of my diet, and I've got to admit, I do feel better, but it's hard to say because I weaned a lot of stuff out of my diet.

Maybe milk's just along for the ride, and it was fine, but I cut down on sugar, and maybe that's really the thing that helped. Have you weaned alcohol out of your diet? Yeah, I don't drink anymore. Because now I'm feeling a little bad about what I'm about to give you. A beer? Is it a bad idea to give you...

Well, I won't drink it. You could give it to me. So you could pass it to a friend or... Sure. Merrick used to work at Great Lakes Brewery. I actually think I did a couple days work for them back in the day because it was started and the guy who owned it

originally, his kid, went to our high school. And so we got a bunch of the guys. Is this Humberside? Yeah. Yeah, my son's in Humberside now. Well, get out of here. Yeah, yeah. Okay, yeah, I went to Humberside too.

Yeah, great school. I know, well, yeah. I used to live on, for a brief period of my life, I rented a basement apartment on Clendenin. Oh, did you really? Oh, cool. Because I grew up at Annette and Runnymede. Well, first on Roncey's and then Annette and Runnymede. Okay, well, the story gets more interesting that the first three years

of my school life, so junior kindergarten, senior kindergarten, grade one, I went to St. Cecilia's. No way. Yeah, yeah. St. C's, get out of here.

I played so many, so many hours of terrible basketball out in front of that school. Oh, you just, my son, the aforementioned Humberside student,

we play one-on-one a lot and he actually kicks my ass now and it bothers me like i need to work on my outside shot because he's so big inside like i can't move the guy and he just he's just way better than me at basketball there's that moment in a parent's life when they have to acknowledge like even if i try i can't beat my kid at something it's the only sport he can actually consistently beat me in, but it's really chewing away at me because I got to work on my shot. That's a story for another day.

Drink more milk. I don't know. That might be working against me. Now, I just recently, like last week, re-watched The Last Waltz. So I'm watching The Last Waltz, which is like the Martin Scorsese concert film, if you haven't seen it.

The band, their last performance together. And, of course, the band starts off as Ron Hawkins, not my lowest of the low Ron Hawkins, romping Ronnie Hawkins, fur jacket, Nathan Phillips Square, New Year's Eve on City TV, Ron Hawkins as their backup band. And you tweeted something about your mom. So what's your mom's relationship to the hawk okay so my dad was a rock and roll guy because he was a kiyono seven also my power move real quick before you go on is because i don't want to miss a second of this okay you almost have to be more on the mic oh really yeah i know okay i just i can do that no problem if you don't mind yeah

as long as uh we're learning these mics that's my power power move. All right. I love it. Yes, sir. Yes, Mike. My dad knew a lot of people. And Ronnie Hawkins was one of them. And I guess they socially hung out. And at some point, my mom sang backup for him. Amazing. Briefly. Cool.

My mom was a really interesting person, too. They had me when they were in high school. Oh, really? Yeah. My mom was like 17 when she had me. My dad had just graduated. So I think he had just turned 19, and then I was born shortly thereafter. So they were kids. They were just kids. And then all of a sudden, my dad got a gig that put him at the epicenter of Toronto culture, and they were in their 20s. So my mom wasn't really like a partier. She didn't really

go out very much. My dad partied a lot, but that was also the gig back then. It was very, very social. It was just everything spilled over. It was a nutty. That was weird growing up with that because people would talk to me about what they heard my dad was up to on the radio because all the other jocks would be talking about it. Sure. They knew more than I did.

That's great. That's a cool, that's a unique upbringing too. It was different. I rebelled by going into classical music. Yeah, yeah. I did. That's great. That's a unique upbringing, too. It was different. I rebelled by going into classical music. Yeah, yeah. I did. I believe it. How do you rebel against your rock and roll dad?

He's only 19 years older than you. Right. And he's a cool guy. It was always very nice. My dad was and is a traditional dad in a lot of ways, with traditional values. He grew up in an immigrant home. He was born in France after my grandparents left after the war. They were Ukrainians. They were upended, put into a work camp and they stayed in France. So he was born there. They came here. He had a very, very

traditional West Toronto, Ukrainian immigrant boy upbringing. Super Polish and Ukrainian right there because Bronte's is very Polish. And then you have a bluer West village. In fact, they have their festivals on the same weekend. Right. And so we were a big part of that. My family was a big part of that. And a lot of my dad's personality comes from that background. So I played baseball at High Park, and he would be there all the time. He wasn't the parent that yelled. He would just sit there, and win or lose, we would go and get swamp water afterwards.

So there was that aspect to it. But the other side of it was he had this really crazy rock and roll lifestyle and gig. And so my mom wasn't really like that, but they hung in those circles and I rebelled against it by being a really straight-laced kid. You didn't get 2% of math? No, I didn't.

Not yet. Skip ahead to the high school years, it got worse. Never too late. Yeah, so I had trained to be a classical musician until I was about 15 or 16 years old. Well, we're going to hear some of your music in a bit, but let's do this now then. So the beer that you're not going to drink, but you're going to take it home. You're right, Merrick did work there, and he's told me some great stories. He's threatened to come back and tell more, which I'm going to make him do at some point.

I helped him once load kegs of Great Lakes beer into Lee's palace and counting crows were playing that get out of here what's your philosophy on light swearing you can swear as much as you want okay all right so counting crows guy walks in what's the name adam duritz yes that's it yeah and he comes walking in he's got the shades and then you know the dreads go right and he walks and he walks past us and i look at merrick and i go that guy looks like like a dick. That is a douche look, actually. It was terrible. It was like 2.30 in the afternoon on the weekday.

It's like, take off your sunglasses. I'm surprised they were ever at a point where they were touring Lee's Palace, actually. That's a humble beginning. I guess that's before Mr. Jones broke. Just before it broke. Right. I had a feeling it was breaking.

Because that Mr. Jones was everywhere. Everywhere. And it was very Van Morrison, right? Like, I'd hear it and I'd go like, hey, you know, that's been done? It sounds like that's the Van Morrison brown-eyedeyed girl like the la la la la it's like if you took van morrison what's good about him and you filtered it through maroon five yeah you would wind up with counting crows that's actually that is that's good math right there actually and

one quick thing i do i did love to hate counting crows but then they released a song i actually liked and it was a guilty pleasure for many years. Long December, it was called. Do you know this song? I do. And it's actually kind of nice. Yeah. And it's like one of those things where it's like,

it's like when Milli Vanilli released Blame It on the Rain and you're like, you know, I actually don't, that's actually not a bad track. On the way over here right now, I was reading how there was a rumor that Alex Galchenyuk might get moved from Montreal and I thought, that's great. Cause screw the Habs and screw Bergevin and screw them all.

And then I read it might be for Noah Hannafin. And I think, Oh, actually that's kind of a, that could work. And you kind of begrudgingly, even though you don't want it to work out, you go,

that could be pretty smart though. That's exactly. You got to say, you know, the rational side of you is like, it's not a bad deal for the Habs. All right. So let's encourage everyone listening to contribute to my Patreon

campaign. Go to patreon.com slash Toronto Mike and give what you can and help power this podcast. What are we on now? This is episode 246. Took me 246 episodes to get Macco in here, but it was worth the wait. Also, Great Lakes Beer is a proud sponsor and I love having them on board and you're taking that home. Give it to your dad or somebody you love. And also, for you to drink your milk in or your friends to drink beer in, that pint glass is going home with you. That is courtesy of Brian Gerstein.

Brian Gerstein is from propertyinthesix.com. is from propertyinthesix.com. Propertyinthesix.com. Brian says, if you're looking to sell in 2017 and still get an amazing return, now is the time to get an evaluation entering the summer market. You may find that where you live is still a seller's market. If not, Brian can advise you on how to prepare your home

to sell in the fall market when sales activity will pick up again. So call Brian at 416-873-0292 to find out what your home is really worth now and not what you think it's worth. Brian Gerstein is a real estate sales representative with PSR Brokerage. The other day, Fred Penner was in here and he whipped out his guitar and started playing along to this jingle and it was the coolest thing. That's the best. It's like, is this happening?

Like it's like one of those like, is this this real life? Is Penner now jamming with the track in my basement? Crazy. Crazy. How many episodes did it take to get that to happen? What would that have been? About 241? 244, actually. That was only two days ago.

This is a bit of a crazy week. Crazy week. Crazy week. But fun week, that's for sure. Hey, I'm going to play a little trailer. Then we're going to talk about Merrick and Strombo and how it all begins for you. But I loaded something in to get our nostalgia bones going here.

Let's ride! The Three Amigos. They were the biggest stars of their day. The Three Amigos are history. But that was yesterday. Look, boys, I know show business. Something always turns up. Telegram for the Three Amigos.

Love this movie as a kid. You know, Mike, it dawns on me. How did this not get remade yet? That's true. I don't know. You're right. One of those cowboys could be Kevin Hart. I can see it now. It would be a big blockbuster.

That's actually good casting. Yeah. That's pretty good. Because, you know, you can't do the three white cowboys again in 2017. You've got to add some diversity to the cast. No, I like that. That's honestly really good casting. Thank you.

You know, he's always surprised me in how bankable he is, because I don't find him particularly funny. Like, I've never really laughed out loud at a Kevin Hart joke. People love Kevin Hart. I know. People love it. As stand-ups go, he's a pretty good actor. Not everybody is able to sort of go into movies after they make their bones

stand up. I guess Martin Lawrence did a pretty good job of that, making the crossover. Kevin Hart, though, has a reputation as being a really great guy. Well, Eddie Murphy did. He's the king. He's the king he's the king and when you were growing up were you the kid who knew every line

in Delirious and every line in Raw which by the way I listened to it it didn't hold up to me because so much of it the beginning part about

I won't say the word but the F word the other F word there's a lot of stuff that of its time which now in 2017 kind of kind of hard to laugh at

actually yeah when it came out, it was sort of the first stand-up. But at the time, it was pretty amazing. We knew it backwards and forwards. It was almost, I'm sure, irritating for everybody else around. Because you couldn't even have conversations

with us. We were either doing Flintstones references or Eddie Murphy references. Absolutely, yeah. We did a lot of that, too. So the Three Amigos trailer, I play it because you, Strombo, and Merrick were kind of known as the Three Amigos. So tell me, I know. We did a lot of that too. So the Three Amigos trailer, I play it because you, Strombo, and Merrick were kind of known as the Three Amigos. So tell me, I know you alluded to it off the top, but how did you know Merrick?

How did you get introduced to Strombo? And how did you end up on the Fan 590 doing game? So happy to talk about this. I'm so glad. I'm happy to hear about this. I'm settling in here. I have to admit, there's a lot of things I've worked on since game

that I think were better made, but there was nothing more interesting. It was just that magical time in your life when you meet people you care about and you have that brief moment of freedom. Right. So I've known Merrick since we were tiny. We were 10 years old.

We played baseball at High Park. We were on the same team. He now coaches a team called the Orioles with his two kids on it. And we met at High Park playing on a team called the Orioles. Wow. That's a little full circle crazy right there. So full circle crazy. First time I met him, actually, he

and Mike Pridmore chased me and tried to shove dry ice into my jaw. Ouch! That's true. Because he was a little older. He was like one year older. I came in as a 10-year-old. It was an 11 and 12 team. But I was an okay ball player.

And they made exceptions for some kids to come up. And this is the majors, right? Yeah. I got cut from the majors at Hyde Park. Oh, okay. Really? Yeah. I know.

I know. I know. I did my tryouts. And I got sent off to, I guess they called it the minors or whatever. They? Yeah, I know. I know. I know. I did my tryouts, and I got sent off to, I guess they called it the Miners or whatever. Really? They called it at the time. Oh, okay. Maybe because I was so scarred, and I've got

to get back to your story ASAP, but I was so scarred. I sort of steered my boy towards House League at High Park, because my boy played at High Park Baseball, but House League, they can't cut you from House League. I was so scarred, but please continue. So I guess I was the newbie and I don't know that I've ever run that fast before or since, but we became fast friends. We bonded over baseball. We both loved the Beatles. And then we wound up in the same school together in grade seven because

we both did the French program. And back then it was kind of, now it's very common for kids to do extended or immersion. But back then it was pretty uncommon. And so there was one class in our area and we both went to it over at Run and Meet. Run and Meet. Okay, so Run and Meet, which is on Run and Meet, unlike the high school Run and Meet, which is on Jane. Which makes no sense.

How did that happen? It makes absolutely no sense. So Merrick and I wound up like best buddies. And even though he and I had different social circles through most of high school, like he hung around the hockey guys. And I kind of hung around the not quite preppy, but really into music guys. But we were always pals. We were always like best, best friends. And he fast forward this many years, he and I were living together.

He had a place over on Indie Row Crescent and I had a room to rent for 250 bucks. And, you know, he and I were doing damage that way and just having a great time. And, and my dad was the program director at the fan at that time. And he, there was something called the fan big ticket. It was a promotion that they did. It was back when radio stations did huge promotions to get you to listen. Right. And the prizes were amazing. You know, like two tickets two tickets to the super bowl two tickets to the masters and and and every

week or whatever they would rotate them and to get to drum up interest they would send these kids the fanatics out to different sporting events and hand out tickets right join the you know listen in join in try to win the big ticket and he got merica gig there I was in a band at the time and had no interest in being part of any of this I was in a band we were touring and and but Merrick needed a couple bucks so my dad shot him a job over at the fan he and George wound up meeting because George was uh an operator at the time literally like the entry level position the guy who just as you're working the board here as we do this podcast, he's the guy working the board.

Yes. For Spider Jones and sometimes for Jim Richards. Spider Jones. I used to love when Spider would call in the morning. He'd call on a Saturday

morning to our place, Bobby, it's the lovable one here. He sings, by the way, too. He does, actually. R&B. Yeah, yeah.

He did a concert at the local park. Yeah, what was his band called? Was it the Fabulous Flames? I can't remember, but yeah, like covers of R&B tunes and stuff. Yeah, no, he's a dude. He used to tell us the best stories.

So Merrick and Strombo start hanging out. One day he brings this guy around. My band's playing at the Ultrasound over on Queen Street. Can I? Yes. Your band, this is the band I think it is, right? This is Glue Leg?

Yeah, Glue Leg. Can I play a bit of Glue Leg? Is now an okay time? Sure, if you can Can I play a bit of Glue Leg? Sure. Is now an okay time? If you can find it, you can play it. Let me just check my archives here and see if I have anything. Yeah. I mean, it sounds good.

Thank you. Thank you. I had questions about Glue Leg, too. If you want to get into those. I didn't interfere with the Fan 590 stuff. They're both so important to me. But let's hear a bit of this here. So that's me on trumpet.

And this track is called Heroic Doses. Like that's a cool like modern rock track that you've done. I was always really proud of this band. You know, I played in a bunch of really bad bands. And then I found these guys. I answered an ad in Now Magazine at the back. It was looking for a trumpet player influences Jane's Addiction

and Frank Zappa. And it was like this thing, like it was like a globe. It was like someone had circle wiped it. And I thought, I've got to go and check this out. So I did.

And it was one of those times when you meet people. Yeah. By the end of my audition, it had already turned into a rehearsal. Like you could just tell this was going to work.

And they had trotted out originals and we were already doing horn arrangements. At the end of it, they said, if you want to do it, please do it. I thought these guys were amazing. So you're in Glulig before you end up at the Fan 590. Yeah, I'm only at the Fan 590 because I left the band.

I should have started with this. Oh no, but they kind of bleed together, really. Yeah, I left the band after touring, and we'd recorded this one. And it was pretty clear I wasn't going to be a musician. Because it's a commitment in your life. You know, like, there's one thing, loving music and being in bands and hanging out. And I was even willing to do it all the time. But I was kind of getting towards my mid-20s.

Right. And the commitment it took, I could see that it wasn't for me. And it wasn't even the work. It was just like, you know, we had toured across the country with I Mother Earth. And I was, you know, hanging out with Jag Tana, who's like such a great guitar player.

And I thought, well, you're amazing. And I'm not. You know what I mean? It's so clear there was a talent gap. So you just felt like you just realized that you weren't good enough to make a career out of this? Is that the bottom line? This record is about as good as i could be as a musician and there was another step for this band to take and i i never felt like i was good enough to take that step it was getting obvious to me and the

kind of commitment i would have to make i wasn't willing to make so you quit the band yes i did which made you available for other pursuits sure did did. And around that time, you know, I kind of started hanging out with the fanatics a little bit because I also needed some money. And so I'm hanging out with Strombo and Jeffy and we're handing out tickets. And those guys were great. And we became like a little group of pals. And my mom famously said to my dad one day over brunch on a Sunday, said, these kids are nice kids, Bob. Give them a show. And he didn't have any money or any available meaningful programming real estate. But he said, I'm running. He goes, I hate taped programming because stations should be local

always. Bless his heart because that's what I want to hear. Too bad no one listens to that anymore. Yeah, it's true. And we'll definitely get into that conversation. It's a very important one. But he was like, look, I got nothing in the budget. I can give you $10 a week each. And you can have 1 a.m. Friday night until Jim Richards starts at 6 a.m. You can do whatever you want with it. You can have all five hours. You can do whatever you want.

And so that's how we started. We were game. And it actually started as a magazine pitch before that. The fan at the time was owned by a company called Telemedia, and they had a magazine division. And someone had approached my dad, because he was in the sports radio field, with a magazine pitch they'd received

for young people. Magazines for young guys. Now, we were all nutty about magazines at the time. And I don't know if you remember the early 90s, but magazines, like, they were a thing. They had a moment. Well, I remember subscribing to several. magazines, they were a thing. They had a moment. I remember subscribing to several, like Spy, for example. I had a Spy magazine. Love Spy. Spy was

brilliant, and we were obsessed with something called Might Magazine, which was actually done by Dave Eggers, who went on to found McSweeney's and became, I think he's won a Pulitzer since, but that was a brilliant magazine. But we would always hang around the racks at the, what are these called? The Great International Magazine Shop.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know exactly. Yeah, I'll be young and eggly. I can see it. Yeah, yeah. I can see it now. Yeah, because Cherry Street was just- Where you'd get, if you wanted a Russian newspaper or whatever, you could go there and get that.

Yeah, right. It was huge. It was like a whole shop just dedicated to newspapers and magazines. It seems quaint now, but, and we would wander. And we thought, you know, there's no sports magazine. Like, we would go and we would go to the music magazines, and they looked really cool. And we would look at ad busters, and we thought, well, this thing's really great. And then we'd look at the sports world, and it was the most conventional presentation.

You only had one, right? I mean, I subscribed to it, but it was just Sports Illustrated, yeah. And we thought, this was around the time of The Simpsons, and everything seemed to be bleeding over in our lives. And we were guys who loved music and sports and politics and everything. And we thought, well, geez, why don't we just do a sports magazine that actually, you know, takes a nod towards pop culture. And this just didn't happen in the sports world at the time. I mean, this was our great revolution.

I'm really, really, really proud of it. And so that was what the radio show was all about was we treated it really rock and roll. I mean, you got to remember, this is who we were at the time, too. Like, I was just coming off the road. Georgie was all into White Zombie and NWA and, you know, Jeffy. You know, like, we weren't trained. We were just guys. But we were funny and we loved each other.

And we had this show. So that's what we made. It was called Game. It's amazing that you were given an opportunity. I mean, I won't use the N-word, nepotism, but... It was nepotism. Lots of people hated us. At that station, it was 50-50 and maybe more than 50-50 how many people couldn't stand us. That's too bad.

But I guess you can see why. Like, how do you deal with the boss's son? Like, that's a tough spot. A hundred percent. And plus, we were cocky kids. You know, we were cocky kids that were doing something that a lot of them thought was garbage. Because we'd talk about heavy metal. The big aha moment for game, because it was okay when it started.

But the aha moment was one night, we just started talking about The Simpsons at like 2.30 in the morning. And the phones lit up. It was like cherry tomatoes right across the board. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. One after the other. And they stayed lit up until like 4 in the morning because people just wanted to talk Simpsons. I might have been one of those callers. You might have been.

We've met a lot of great people who have phoned in from back in the day. So we really ran with that. And that became the essence of the experiment was how can pop culture and sports fit together? Well, it's one thing. And every time I hear about a show like this, the game, I always think like it's a shame that this opportunity doesn't exist in 2017. Like there is no overnight shift for sort of a young broadcaster to do stuff like, you know, to cut their chops or whatever and cut their teeth and improve and try different things. There's no way to do that, right? You're so right. And it's such a shame. It's such a great point you make. I was thinking about it on the way over here. You just don't have Strombo unless you have those late night shifts. You know, you don't have Merrick unless you have those late night shifts.

These guys, that's where they learn how to talk. And it's brutal at that time because you know nobody's listening, but it gives you the freedom and it gives you a kind of a boldness and you learn your craft. The only way you know how, which is to just keep doing it until you stop doing it badly. Keep doing it and then you get better.

Right. That's how it works. Come on, I'm on episode 246. Please don't go back and listen to episode six or seven. I don't want to hear what I sounded like. I'm on episode six of my podcast with cause. I'm thinking don't go back to episode one. You sound pretty good though, but I did have

a cold start. I'm telling you that the whole idea that you got this many hours in the middle of the night. Maybe nobody's listening, but you can do whatever you want. You guys, that's where the magic comes from. That's amazing to me. The internet has replaced that, obviously. I was going to say, nowadays, there's where the magic comes from. That's amazing to me. And the internet has replaced that, obviously.

Well, I was going to say, the only, nowadays, because you can't even really, there's not even the small market. A lot of times people go to the small market and cut their teeth there and stuff. But they're drying up too. Well, that's a great point because they're all basically taped programming or syndicated programming, voice tracked stuff. You're right. It used to be that you would go and take,

like Jim Richards did Morning Radio and Barry, which isn't like a tiny market, but it's a smaller market. Definitely, yeah. But there's no Jim Richards unless he can do those weekend shifts and the overnight shifts and the smaller markets. And I think Jim is maybe the most talented guy on radio. I think I'm on the record. There's my two favorite talk show host guys.

I really like Mike Stafford on 640, and I really like Jim Richards on 1010, and I think they're the two best guys right now. So even just some of the names we've checked off, the things that we've taken out of this industry are exactly the things that allowed those guys to be this good. And it's really sad. It's really sad. It bums me out.

So I've had Nelson Millman on this show, and I've heard the story. Did he tell you the story? I can't remember. Maybe Jeff told me this. I think maybe Jeff told me the story and then maybe I heard it again from Nelson. But can you tell me the, how does Nelson fire the three amigos?

So my dad left the fan and it was, I was too young to really understand what was going to happen next. But within about a week. Oh, they didn't waste any time. Yeah, within about a week, Merrick and I are doing prep for Friday's show.

It would have been a Thursday, and we were in there doing bits and recording some liners. And we look up, and there is a note on the bridge that just says, game will not be on this Friday. Like a Post-it note or something.

Post-it note, basically. Yeah. So you were fired by Post-it note on a communal fridge or whatever. That's exactly it. It said that Strombo would be sticking around, and he'd be assigned to something, and that me and Merrick would be gone.

Oh, man. That reminds me of office space when they forgot to tell, was it Milton or whatever? Yeah, that's right. He's in the basement. He's working away because there was a payroll error, so he kept getting paid, and they forgot to tell him. He doesn't work there anymore.

It was exactly like that. Look, I remember, and I was so upset, because you've got to understand, like, we loved this show. We poured our hearts into it because as soon as it started to catch a little bit of fire and there was this tiny little cult listening group out there, it's really

we were a podcast before they were podcasts. I was about to say, it's like, today if that happened you would continue on as a podcast, right? But back then once they take away, you know, your right to the terrestrial radio station... There was nowhere to go. You can, at the top of a building,

you can get, like, a yell, I guess. But yeah, we were young and dundas. We were thrown out into the cold. I remember, like, we were really emboldened by the fact that there was this tiny group of people who really loved the show. You know, we would get... There was trafficking in tapes of our shows like people would tape them and then have

parties later in the week and sit around and listen to it and that's what my parents used to do with monty python is they'd get together with their friends and watch it on pbs on on friday nights and so it was a bit of that right and uh cult following so this one week we decided we didn't want to do a show we were gonna we were gonna run a of, but we ran a stunt because we just wanted to see what happened, where we intimated at the beginning that we weren't sure if we were going to be fired. We knew we weren't. We just wanted to see what would happen. We went a little far last week.

So if you want to reach out, here's the number you can fax. And 300 came in. And my favorite was this one that was written in scrawl. And it just said, it looked like somebody who's really angry when they wrote it, and it just said, game dies and you die. Oh, that's scary. But another one was written by a woman who was doing her PhD at McMaster in Islamic medieval history who said how she loved to listen to it while she was working late nights. That's two extremes right there.

That was kind of the show in a nutshell. That's great. But they, unfortunately, show's gone. Strombo sticks around because, and he's told this story. I think he was episode 103 because he wanted 102 for obvious reasons, but I promised that

to Scott Turner and it ended up, he got, I called 103, 102.1 just to make George happy. That's actually really good. Yeah, see? That's a good one.

That's really smart. Like compromise. Thank you. Once in a while, I have a good idea. So in that episode, though, he talks about how he sticks around and then he ends up going

from the fan to 102.1. Stu Myers, I think, is the chap who kind of takes him under his wings and gives him a shot at 102.1. So Strombol's history is in episode 103, if you want to hear that. I can't remember Merrick's episode, but it's before that. And it's fantastic. We ended up just spinning real statics at the end and shooting the shit for a half an hour. So that was great. But you,

my friend, so what happens after the Fan 590 for you? So we had gone over to Internet Radio. We both worked all three of us went over and took our show to Virtually Canadian, which was Canada's first 24-7 online radio station. So that's nothing to do with Iceberg.

It was originally. this was the first version of Iceberg. It morphed into Iceberg. Was Marsden involved? Not when I was there. I was there at the very, very, very beginning. And for a very short period of time. And then somebody told me, I can't even remember who it was, but somebody told me that TSN was looking

to hire, and they needed somebody who could book guests for a new talk show they wanted to do. And they needed somebody who could book guests for a new talk show they wanted to do right and they needed somebody who had a pop culture leanings because they wanted it to be a hybrid uh somebody who could book entertainment people but also sports people and i had spent the last two years of my life in that space you know studying pop culture and sports and how these things connected you'd be perfect yeah you'd think so now i actually wasn't the guy that the producer then, Brian Sobey, admitted to me afterwards. He didn't want to hire me.

He didn't think I was the right guy. But the guy he did want didn't take the job. And he wasn't sure what to do, but he remembered I had tried to pick up the receptionist on my way out. Then he looked out and he saw that I was trying to get a phone number. So he thought, well, that guy would probably make a good booker. That's great. And so I got the job.

And honestly, Mike, the first time I make a good booker. That's great. And so I got the job. Like, honestly, Mike, the first time I'd ever gone to TSN wasn't then. It was actually, there was someone who worked at the fan named Rosie Rodriguez. Okay.

Roger Grease. Anyway. Rodriguez. Yeah, Rodriguez. It was Rodriguez. Absolutely. No, I was thinking of a spider who used to

mispronounce Cha-Cha Rodriguez. Yeah, you know what? Cha-Cha Rodriguez is Cha-Cha Rodriguez. That's WKRP. But you know what that's from? Les Nesman on WKRP.

Right, right. So I crossed that up. We went to go visit her one day because she was our pal and I remember thinking, God, I would never work at a place like this. This is horrible. I believe I described it to someone

as a veal fattening pen. Make the final. Yeah, right. It just seemed like, you know, the antithesis of everything we were trying to do. But I needed the money. Sure. And I thought, oh, I'll work here for six months

and I'll get off Merrick's couch. Is that what you were, yeah. So I didn't really like it at first. And then they wanted to make some changes. And Landsberg really stood up for me. So this is off the record. Yeah, this is off the record. Yeah, I shouldn't jump ahead of it. I just want people to me. So this is off the record. Yeah, this is off the record. Yeah, I shouldn't jump ahead of it.

I just want people to know this talk show is off the record, which only got canceled like a year ago. Yeah, really recently. Yeah. I think it had a 17 or 18 year run. Yeah. Not bad for Landsberg. And he's, I mean, as you know, of course, Landsberg's on the radio every morning on

your old station, but we'll get to that soon. Okay. So yeah, they hired me, and then they were going to make a change at the producer chair. And at the time, they were looking at, remember the Gallagher show? John Gallagher had a show?

Of course, absolutely. Right, kind of an infamous moment. He came in and we talked about it. Right. Yeah, it is infamous. Well, they didn't know who was going to produce that show. And Keith Pelley at the time, who was the vice president of programming and production at TSN, he was a risk taker.

You know, I mean, he brought in John Gallagher. So that gives you an indication. He's a risk taker. Yeah, he shoots from the hip. And he had no idea. He looked down, basically, who's going to produce this show. And he looked at his group of guys and thought, well, there's nobody really here who's going to know how to manage John. So somehow my name got thrown into the mix. Yeah. And it was originally a conversation,

would I want to produce the Gallagher show? And I thought, well, you know, it'd get me out of guestbook and yeah, sure. Why not? And Landsberg had heard that I was going to be considered for this gig. And I think it made him nervous because he and I had built a very close relationship and I did a lot of work with him pretty closely at that point. And so Pelly came to me and said, you know,

would you take the off-the-record job seriously? Like, would you want that? And I said, well, yeah, of course I would. And so they ultimately offered that to me and I wound up the producer

of Off the Record. The producer of Off the Record. Yeah, I was 27 years old and I'd been in sports broadcast for like, I'd been in television for about a year. And they gave me the talk show to run, which was really not popular at the time. Is that right?

I mean, what I remember at some point off the record goes heavy with wrestling guests. Is that Merrick's influence? No, that was me. I mean, we brought in Merrick to help, but basically I looked at the grid and wrestling was huge. And I loved wrestling growing up. I mean, we could sit here and talk 80s and 90s wrestling all day.

Well, do you see this mug here? Yeah. That's the real deal. I've had that since 85 or something like that. I love it. And that was my, I sort of leave wrestling in, I'm going to say like 88 or so.

So I kind of grew it, I guess. But for a period of time, I went to Hulkamania at the C&E Grandstand when the 70,000 saw Hulk Hogan versus Paul Orndorff. I saw it there. I was there, too. Absolutely. And I caught a few shows at Maple Leaf Gardens, and I watched all the time.

I was an obsessive wrestling geek. That was one thing that Merrick and I, all through high school, had together. Who was your favorite? Well, and I all through high school had together was. Who was your favorite? Well, it's generational. I mean, I really loved Jimmy Superfly Snooker before the Vince McMahon era kind of took off. And I was into guys like Jay Youngblood and Johnny Weaver. Yeah, I don't even know those guys. Yeah, that's old school.

That's like 70s stuff. The Great Kabuki, Ricky Steamboat. Yeah, Steamboat did come over to do a lot of the WWF stuff. And then in the 80s, like everybody else, I loved Ultimate Warrior and I love Macho Man. Oh, Macho Man. You got his rap album? I don't, actually.

It's pretty good. He has a pretty good Hogan diss track. Does he really? Be a man, Hulk. No. Don't be scared. You're running from the Macho Man. That's what I heard.

So he rhymes scared with heard. It's quite a rap song, I'm telling you. My oldest, we listen to that because we like cheesy bad rap sometimes. And yeah, look that up on YouTube, Be A Man Hulk. I'm going to tweet that out today. That's genius, Be A Man Hulk. So yeah, the thing was, it was so big

and we were looking for a male 18 to 34 audience. Yeah, that's wheelhouse. And we were coming out of it. And so we would book a lot of wrestlers. And what we found was, and this was one of those happy accidents, was they were the best shows. I know people at the time thought it was a sideshow and goofy and that we were just a program where

we would book hot women and wrestlers. And people took it as a real joke. But the wrestling shows were actually the best shows we did. And what really happened, and this was so cool, was that within the industry, it became a thing to come on and do the show. Yes.

And it all goes back to the Vince episode with Shawn Michaels and Bret Hart. And Landsberg, to this, you know, I don't know that this would have happened if Landsberg had been a wrestling fan because I don't think he understood who Vince was. And we had prepped him you know with the way it would work is this it was a brilliant like the the chain of command

was brilliant because we would book the guests and then I would phone Merrick and for an hour he would just talk about what's going on you know like I would ask him questions and I would sit there with a pad of paper I would just write stuff down furiously. And he would just extemporaneously talk about wrestling. And then I would take that note, a set of notes, like maybe 10, 12 pages, and whittle it down to what I thought would be the most important questions you could ask over the course of half an hour. And then I would prep the hell out of Landsberg, who didn't know anything about this. Right, right, right. Right? Yeah, you made him an expert, yeah.

Kind of. But, like, the thing is, like, see, I was an amateur expert and Jeff, he was a professional expert because he did the law. This was his living. See, before I knew of Jeff

as the hockey guy, I knew him as the wrestling guy. Like he did, that transition, what a genius move, you know, to position himself for the big Rogers deal.

Like amazing. I mentioned earlier, Jeff was a genius and I think it's starting to show, right? I mean, he was talking about like, what were the terms you have for the bad guys like there's all these wrestling terms oh yeah there's the face and yeah right well his big thing is always use the language right so I remember when Jeffy started doing Leafs lunch over at 640 and he was talking about grapes and apples you know instead of goals and assists and I'd be like get lost you idiot but in truth though it's because he was so inside that world he just

loved the lingo I like inside stuff like and if you if you idiot. But in truth, though, it's because he was so inside that world, he just loved the lingo. I like inside stuff. If you don't know it, then you've got to kind of work for it. You've got to earn it, if you will. He was always the king of the smarts, right? If you were a smart fan, Jeff was your guide because he was the smartest of the smarts fans. The smart fans.

So we would take all that stuff, we would give it to Landsberg, and we did these wrestling shows. They became quite popular. What kind of guy is Landsberg? He's a great guy. I have known Landsberg for 20 years, I guess, something like that. And he became one of my best friends. And man, we hung out together so much.

We were inseparable from about 1999 to 2003. He had the Capital Event Theatre, which was an event theatre at Yonge and Eglinton, and he and some partners had bought this space and had turned it into an event theatre. And it had really taken off. And, you know, he always said, your money's no good here.

So I would have this place to go to that had parties every night, and I could just drink and hang out. It's like being a good fella. It was like... I swear, that's such a great analogy, because it was exactly like that that's amazing uh for the upper middle class young and eglinton crowd it was like

being a good fella that's amazing and by the way he is a great guy but you you've uh somebody told me this let me ask you now so did you once co-own a radio station with landsberg and your dad i did this is vancouver's uh shore 104 okay so Okay. So where in the order of things does this happen? I don't want to put you two out of order here, but you're at Off the Record. Yeah. Off the Record runs out at 2005, and then I went over to The Hour.

Bright Strombo Show on CBC. Now, do you want me to wrap with Off the Record? Yeah, go ahead. Do you want to hear anything else about it? No, you can wrap up. I'm just curious about Landsberg, and I knew you had about Landsberg because, and I knew you had done business with him,

so I knew you were tight with him. And I had an email exchange with him once in which he enthusiastically said he wanted to come on Toronto Mic'd. And then whenever I replied back and said, hey, let's pick a day and time, I got radio silence. It's south of St. Clair, so that could be a tough sell for him.

I mean, he don't get around much anymore. See, I don't go north of St. Clair. That's my be a tough sell for him. He don't get around much anymore. See, I don't go north of St. Clair. That's my thing. See, you understand it. Like, you know how Mimico is. Mimico is Mimico, right? Do you know this is not Mimico? Come on.

I'm not kidding you. You know the McDonald's at Dwight and Lakeshore? There's a McDonald's, and then you hit First Street, and then you start counting the numbers? Yeah. Once you hit the numbers, you're out of Mimico, and you're in what's called New Toronto. New Toronto is between Long Branch and Mimico.

So once you hit First Street, you've left. So Dwight is the actual border. Dwight's where that McDonald's is. That's amazing. We're in a place called New Toronto. Is there a charter of rights here? Is it its own thing? If you look it up in the wiki, at some point many years ago, Mimico wanted

to merge with New Toronto. This is back in the day. And the New Toronto refused to give up their independence and refused to merge with Mimico. So like it's like a panhandle where Mimico is to the north of us here and it's to the east of us. So I know this is a panhandle. So Mimico is this presence

here and everyone talks about Mimico, but you are not in Mimico right now. You're in New Toronto. I feel like I can do anything. I feel like I'm in international waters. I feel like I could marry someone here. Brendan Shanahan has no jurisdiction here. Neither does Dave Boland. Or David Clerkson, for that matter. Or the Riley's. Smiths, I mean. They got the two Smith brothers, too, who came out of Mimico. That's true. Mimico massive. A lot of good hockey players came out of there. Lacrosse players, too, who came out of Mimico. That's true. Mimico Massive. A lot of good hockey players came out of there.

Lacrosse players, too. Lacrosse is huge in Mimico. I digress. CBC finished off the record. Landsberg's a good guy. He just doesn't want to come out. Great guy. That show was run...

I give guys like Rick Chisholm, who was the VP of production, Mark Millier, who's now second in command at TSN, all these guys who were like the sort of mid to senior brass. God bless them, because we did a lot of nonsense. Let's get away with it. And I think they just saw that we were creative young people who were very passionate and very determined to make a good show.

But they didn't expect us to conform to TSN's way of doing things. They just expected us to be respectful, which we were. But they let us, like, you know, we would go and, you know, there'd be a Playboy playmate coming by and we would like, oh, we got to have somewhere for her to sit. So we would steal all the furniture out of the edit suite so that we could create a lounge in our office. So, you know, like it was just the kind of thing

that did not happen before 1998. Interesting. By the way, it was a great show. I mean, I caught a lot off the record and some friends have been on there

and it sounds like a fun show. You know what I really loved about that show, looking back? I mean, it was obviously a bite on politically incorrect and the idea was

you would just get people to debate. And usually they didn't know enough about sports to debate. Like we, all those times you thought this person doesn't know anything about sports. They didn't like, we told them exactly what to say. It was a total, total sham in a lot of cases. Uh, because you know,

we, we had a mandate to book entertainment people and, you know, we'd ask them questions about the Leafs and, you know, you have an entertainment person from California, what the hell do they know? So we, we prepped a lot of people. It was a big part of the day. But I felt like there was a language that came out of it. It was really the extension of game, the idea that pop culture and sports would somehow exist together. We tried. I won't say to whom.

I will just say that Landsberg and I were once approached to discuss the show with a major American broadcaster, and we went down there. And they didn't go with us but they did take the format and give it to their guy Jim Rome and eventually create the best damn

sports show so we actually went down to talk to the WWF once about a gig too that was really interesting well it wasn't even so much about a gig. I mean, that kind of just came up on the side, but it was when Owen Hart died in the ring. We had to go down to Stanford

to talk to Vince on his turf. Man, and did Vince do the whole Peacock thing? Because I'm assuming there's two Vinces. I assume there's the Vince McMahon and then there's the character. No, he's that guy. He's kind of scary. He actually was talking to me.

I don't know if he was just trying to intimidate me, but he's like, you know, I'm a carnivore. I'm paraphrasing, but he's like, I'm a carnivore. I'm going to rip off the biggest piece of meat I can, and if it makes my belly sick, I don't care. Oh, man. Yeah. So anyway, what did you want to talk about? Oh, man. So off the record, mid-2005 or whatever, and you end up at The Hour.

I do. This is the show of the red chairs. That's right. Great show, too. I always thought Strombo was a very good interviewer. In fact, when I was starting this up, he's one of the inspirations of how I was going to conduct the interview. I don't get quite as close to my guest as George would. You're not going to tap my knee as you ask me a question?

There was some close talking there, which is all good. Get intimate. And I also don't have the red chairs, but I try to sprinkle a little strombo in the mix. I think everybody does. He's a really terrific interviewer. Where that show started, and there's an important sort of chain of events here.

Yeah. After 2001 and there was the 9-11 attacks george and i became obsessed with news as many of us did right and we were especially appalled that we didn't feel that there was a good news source out there that was editorially sharp and spoke the truth i mean you, you have to remember back then, like for someone who's younger, they may not be able to relate to this, but there was this conversation, this open dialogue that immediately shut down. Like on September 12th, everybody stopped talking about everything

and you would be deemed unpatriotic if you were critical of the path that was going down. And we thought that was bullshit. Yeah, you're either with us or against us, I think was the exact line from W. So, i guess al gore later would pick up on this idea with stuff like the current and then al jazeera you know would come in with its english channel but at the time there was really nothing and so he and i approached chum because they were really interested in keeping him happy he wasn't much and i'm sure they saw they had this budding young

star and right uh we created a news program for them that we shot a pilot it was um we went to washington we taped a segment with ralph nader another one with pat buchanan uh we we cut some features and right around that same time uh newsworld cbc newsworld called up georgie and and offered him a gig working for them. Because I guess they had felt the same way. They had no idea what we were doing. So they built their own show. And eventually I left off the record and became a writer and a producer on that one. Cool.

Yeah, that was great. And that show basically continues until maybe it had different names. I think it got... Well, it became George Drombalopoulos. That's right. That's right. I only worked there for about a year and a half. And you end up back in radio?

I do. Like 1010? Yeah. 1010 was, that was just Georgie and I goofing around on Sunday nights. So is that what that was? Okay. So, because I was trying to remember you actually on 1010. Yeah, we just did Sunday nights.

I think it was 8 to 10 was our shift. And Mike Bendixson, who's the program director there now, was in Montreal at the Astral station there. I guess it's CJAD, I think it was called. And so we were sinocast here and in Montreal. But we did it for like 50 bucks a night. We weren't making any dough doing it. I mean, we just liked being on radio. But you had a good time.

I don't think they... Those weekend night stuff, the weekend stuff on CFRB, I think they still pay that much. Yeah, right. I'm sure they do. I'd be shocked if they still gave $50. It might even be less today. Yeah, no comment. But yeah, I don't think the weekend spots on 1010 are very lucrative for the hosts.

But again, it was a spot where we could do our thing. And it was just for fun. And we never would have done it. But George is famous. And they love the idea of being able to promote. George has a show on the station. And it was just for fun. And we never would have done it. But George is famous, and they love the idea of being able to promote George has a station, a show on the station. And so we did that, and that was cool.

Everybody wins. Everybody wins. We had fun. Now, let's talk CBC Radio 2 for a moment. Yeah. So you were Tom Allen's regular, like, substitute host on the morning show, right? The Radio 2 morning?

Yeah. The way this all worked was Steve Tapp is formerly the president over at Chum and he moves on at some point, but I'd gotten to know him through George. He was one of the guys who really wanted to make George happy and was kind of one of the management heads behind this news pilot we'd done.

So I got to know Steve a little bit and one day he called me and said, he's doing some headhunting for CBC Radio because they wanted to switch formats. And they were going to move away from being strictly classical to incorporate, you know, I don't know if you remember that changeover. I totally do. Yeah, absolutely. And it was a big move for them. And they were doing everything they could to cast it right.

So he called me up and said, do you know any musicians? They've asked, you know, musicians who can do radio. So I put together a list, you know, there's Bedini and Taggart and all the guys that you would expect. And that morning, I had gone to a job interview, and I hadn't really had any breakfast, and I didn't have time for lunch. And then I met Steve at the Spoke Club, which I wouldn't go to, but Steve was a member at the Spoke Club. And he offered me a glass of wine, which I accepted, and it went right to my head. Right to my head.

And that's when you stopped drinking. That's right. It was on that fateful day. So I was a little buzzed. And you know that first bit of buzz where you get a bit cocky and loose and fun? Yeah, yes, of course. It's the best part of the booze, right? That's the point of the booze, isn't it? I think so.

You'd think. So at the end of our little conversation, he thanked me for the list, and I said, you know, you should put my name on that list. He goes, are you a musician? I'm like, yeah, I played for years. I said, but I'd want to do a classical music show because I grew up playing classical music. And I'm probably more trained in that area than a lot of people who go into rock and roll.

And you have great pipes. I'd never done really any radio, though. You know, like I had just always done it goofy as a side thing with my friends. Right. I had no aspirations of being a radio host, but I was kind of drunk and I thought it would be kind of fun to do. So he set it up and I went in and I auditioned and it went really well. And next thing I knew, they said, look, we have an idea of who we want to put in for our classical show. And it turned out to be Julie Nasrallah, who's fantastic. But they said, would you audition for

the weekend morning gig? I'm like, yeah, sure I would. And so we went through it and they were ready to offer the job. Now here's where the other station comes in. At this same time, when I left the hour, I decided I wanted to do two things, two things. I wanted to create a business and I wanted to create characters that people liked. So I went to the Canadian Film Center to study writing, and my father wanted to own a radio station. He said, I've got the formula, I know how to make money at it, but I just need partners.

So Landsberg is, Landsberg's not rich, but because he's a fun, famous sports guy, he knows a lot of rich people. And so we connected with the guy who runs the keg, David Eisenstadt, and we talked to him and some of his partners out there, Sam Feldman, who's a very, very smart, very powerful guy in the Canadian industry. Another guy, Sean Morrison, who is basically a hedge fund guy. And they became our partners. And we went out and we went for this

station. Now you can go any, like you could go for a station, Mike. You could go for a station because they are public airwaves. And so if one becomes available, everybody has equal right to it. It would be hard to do as an individual because the CRTC probably wouldn't give it to you. So here we were, this independent company. Yeah. You know? Sorry. No, I know.

I'm just following along. Oh, okay. Yeah. So we're this independent company, but we did a really good presentation, and we wound up winning the license. And we were up against the CBC, like all the big power players. It was funny. On our first day when we presented, the place was basically empty.

There were 15 bids for the application. And basically you just, what you do is you lease it from the government for seven years. You never actually own it. You are simply allowed to use it and make money on it. Gotcha. Like I couldn't sell it without them saying,

okay, which eventually would be part of the story. But, uh, so for the first day when we presented people, you know, the place was half empty because who was going to take us seriously? But we're, we're talking about Shore 104.

Yeah. Okay. It became Shore 104. So we're out in Vancouver, we're pitching this thing. And, um, the,

the final day was when people were allowed to sort of rebuttal and talk to each other. So the, the first part of our thing, nobody paid attention, but on the last day, like everyone lined up against us because there had been this buzz that there was this really great presentation. And so eventually we won the license and it was, it was an amazing,

crazy time because one, I was working with my dad in Landsberg and that was a lot of fun, but also, you know, like I own 10% of an FM station and the one previous uh that had been sold the beat out in Vancouver it sold for 44 million dollars wow like it was an insane crazy time we were ready to sign off on our financing deal and I honestly thought okay like I'm gonna make the move now and I'm gonna become a radio station owner and we were looking at other stations like Arthur Carlson's mom exactly exactly like that speaking of Les Nesman. Wow. But what happened was the, do you remember the great crisis, the great debt crisis of 2007 when everything froze? Yeah, of course. This is just before Obama comes in.

Yeah, just before then. If you ever watch any of those docs about how the credit market dried up, we were right in the middle of it. Like we were finalizing deals. We were at the point where it was literally like the lawyers are just crossing T's and dotting I's. And then I would have been out. Like that thing would have been funded. But the deal fell through. And now all of a sudden we had to pay for it. We had a building.

We had a staff. We were ready to flip the switch. We were ready to go. And now the money had to come out of our pockets. And that thing was a money pit. Wow. It was crazy. the money had to come out of our pockets and that thing was a money pit. Wow. It was crazy.

So eventually, just to go back to the CBC Radio 2. Yeah. I owned a station while I was on that airwaves. It was very strange. I had to tell them and we basically firewalled any relationship I would have with the station. Yeah, you guys, you disclose it and then remove any conflict of interest. But Mike, how crazy is this? I was out playing tennis. any relationship I would have with the station. Yeah, you guys should disclose it and then remove any conflict of interest. But Mike, how crazy is this? I was out playing tennis.

Do you know the courts, the tennis courts that are on Parkside Drive over by Keelan Bloor? I know, hold on, because it's like St. Joan of Arc. Yeah, just down the way there. Pizza, pizza. That's right where High Park starts. Yes, of course, because they have that white, where the subway, the white part of the bridge.

Yeah, right, so you know exactly where. So there's a set of tennis courts there. I'm there with my buddy, Ihor Junik, and it's midway, like we're just knocking the ball around, and the phone rings, and it's our lawyer who says, you guys got the station. I'm like, I can't believe this. That was 11 a.m.

At 1 p.m., CBC phones to say, okay, here's the contract, we offer you the position. It's quite the day. It was so bizarre, and I had to tell them, I can't take your gig because I'm your competition now. Wow. Yeah. But eventually when the station got into serious financial trouble,

I needed a job. So I went back to CBC and they did hire me. And I became Tom Allen's replacement guy. And then eventually I got that shift. Yeah. It was like, I guess, November 2009, you become the program's new permanent host. That is true. And that was a got that shift. Yeah, it was like, I guess, November 2009, you become the program's new permanent host. That is true.

And that was a crazy day too. I didn't even know where to go with this, except that meanwhile, I don't know if this is concurrent. And my daughter was born a month and a half later. So it was just a wild, crazy time. Man, that's exciting stuff. Like life is like a roller coaster ride, right? So weird.

And like Strombo's got a show, of course, on Radio 2, and you contributed to that too. I did, yeah. Is that concurrent or is that like after? Concurrent, yeah. I mean, he was... So your fingerprints are all over Radio 2. Yeah, basically when we got there,

I think they wanted to hire me just because all that stuff I had done with Shore, I knew a lot about the kind of music they were looking to program. And I came from the privates. And I think at the CBC, there's always this sort of fear and fascination with people who come from private radio because it really is just a different

animal. You're almost like a white tiger at the Burlington Zoo. They think you have some kind of secret knowledge about how to do things. Really, what you have a secret knowledge how to do is make money. Because private's all about money, and public's about 50 different things at the same time. Yeah, you have to serve a certain mandate and public interest you have to serve beyond just the commercial.

CBC Radio 2, in a lot of ways, if I'm honest, is the great missed opportunity. I think game is maybe the great missed opportunity in my life, but in terms of things that actually existed and were sitting there, that could have been so much better than it really was. You know, the CBC Radio 2, like I'm so thankful to everybody there. They took a huge chance on me.

They're really smart and really hardworking, but they were trying to be really big and really culturally relevant at the same time. And you could see almost on a weekly basis them getting pulled in different directions, you know? Part of my ignorance here, but do they now have ads on Radio 2? They do. I don't know if they've discontinued.

You know, I think they filed a motion with the CRTC, which was put through, that they could have two minutes per hour, I think. Because I know there's still ad-free on Radio 1. I just wondered. I did read something that Radio 3 had. It was really weird, Mike. on Radio 1. I just wondered. I did read something that Radio 2 had. It was really weird, Mike, because Radio 3, which was this great internet portal

for Canadian music, was this super funky, tons of great interesting people working there, and you couldn't be weird or goofy enough. And then Radio 2, it was almost like we need you to be CHFI, but also like Radio 3. And it's just like you could never figure

out exactly, like, okay, you want me to do light stories about the health benefits of potassium, but you also want me to play world music at 7.15 a.m. You know, you're making a good point. I never worked in radio, but I am like a guy who gets lots of people's opinion about radio and I have my own opinions and I listen to a lot of radio. I find Radio 2 has a bit of an identity crisis. And I think if you went to the average Joe in Toronto

and said, where on the dial will you find Radio 2? I think you'd be shocked at how few people, most people know how to find Radio 1 and everyone knows how to find CHFI or CHUM FM or whatever, you keep going, but Q107. But how many people know where Radio 2 is on their dial? It has a small and dedicated audience. And it's really a lot of projects that don't work.

And I'm not saying Radio 2 doesn't work, but it has its own sort of limitations. They're built into almost like the foundational contract you have with your own project. If you need to make money, then you know what success looks like. Lots of money. If you want to be culturally relevant, then you know what success looks like. It's an impact on the culture of the day. But when you start mixing and matching these things, I've thought this is not just Radio 2's problem, but this is CBC's challenge in general. And my wife works there.

I've worked there on and off a few times. A lot of my friends work there. And God bless the CBC. This country is so much worse off without it. Agreed. And they make so much good stuff, but it's like they can't ever commit to whether or not they want to be financially relevant or culturally relevant.

And so therefore there are no right decisions and there are no wrong decisions. Hey, we put out something and only a hundred thousand people watched. Yeah. But you know what? It's exactly the kind of thing the CBC should be making. I'm with you.

You know? But you could easily say on another day, yeah, we can't do those 100,000 viewership shows anymore because it's too low. Yeah, you're right. Either you're this or you're that, and trying to be both, I think, hurts both sides. It's a fascinating poll,

and I was kind of caught in the middle of it at Radio 2 because they were trying to commercialize. In a lot of ways, I think for the old guard there, I represented the move towards commercialization, which made me look like a bad guy coming in. Nobody treated me badly, and the best guy to me actually was Tom Allen, whose show I was replacing. He's such a gentleman, I can't ever say enough about Tom Allen. Sorry. No, but I was just going to say it was, and it continues. I think they've sorted a lot of that stuff out, but it continues to be a challenge and

probably always will be for them. Is it, who replaces you? Is that Tom Power? Yeah. I think they had a bunch of people and Tom's gone on to do great. So it's like Tom's a fantastic talent. Well, Tom got a cue, of course. Absolutely.

After Shad. And Raina, who's been on this show and was, well, she was at 102.1, but maybe best known for 88.1. Yeah, with Indie. Indie 88. Yeah, she's now the morning show host at Radio 2. She's really good. The funny thing about Radio 2 is it sounds like I'm dissing it, but I'm not. In a lot of ways, all I want Radio 2 to do is like themselves.

Like, this is a really interesting, like, there's a ton of talented people there. They make stuff that doesn't sound like commercial radio, but it's not alienating or an art project. Like, they is a really interesting, like, there's a ton of talented people there. Yeah. They make stuff that doesn't sound like commercial radio, but it's not alienating or an art project. Like, they do so many things well. I kind of just wish Radio 2

would sit back and say, you know what? This is really neat. Like, we've got this crazy set of things, like, plates to spin, and we're kind of doing it. We should feel good about

this. All right. I need to get you at TSN Radio 1050, because I've got a bunch of questions there. How long have we talked for, Mike? One hour and five minutes. Okay. So when are you going to throw me out of here? Well,

do you have a hard stop, as they say? Look, you told me that Merrick and Strombo went for two hours. Well, yeah, we're going to end up going pretty long here because don't worry, I won't keep you two hours, but I do have a lot of 1050 stuff, but I need to know how it ends for you at Shore 104 in Vancouver. I need to know how that wraps up. Because you're there, you own it. We'd hear the financing fell through. So can you wrap that up? Because I'm curious,

you own a station in Vancouver. It's crazy, right? The first part of that story is so thrilling because I'm flying out there and I'm meeting people, we're staffing, and you're thinking, God, the whole world is open in front of us. And then after that, it becomes like this death march towards, you know, the station's not doing as well as it needs to because it doesn't have a ton of cash. Like we had these really sort of modest growth plans based on a certain amount of cash. And because we didn't have that certain amount of cash, all of a sudden, the modest growth becomes, you can't do it. Because you have the economics of it required that we be bigger than we thought we were going to be in order to make it all work.

And just so we know, people listening, like what kind of music are you playing on this station? It was AAA is what they call it in the States. But basically it's a lot like what Radio 2 does. it in the states but basically it's a lot like what radio 2 does so it would be you know katie lang spoon uh you know kind of roots rock john mellencamp it's a big format in the states it doesn't really i mean it exists here now but at the time it didn't which is why we thought we could win the license my dad had this thing called the um he used to call it the artist artistic argument and it basically was centered on playlists. Like, I remember presenting to the CRTC.

I said, so Nora Jones, it was her third record. I can't remember what it was called right now. I said, debuted at number one on iTunes. Number one most downloaded record. In the States, it did this. It did this. It did this. It did this.

I said, in the time between, say, September the 1st and November the 1st on Vancouver Radio, can you guess how many times any of it was spun? I'm going to guess zero. Zero times. So I said, like, in an industry that's trying to keep up with the times, like, you can see that the kind of sclerotic nature of the formats here, there's an entire commercial wing of the industry

that just falls through because it's not alternative rock and it's not pop. It's somewhere in the middle, but out here in Vancouver, there's an audience for this. Maybe not a huge one. So anyway, the way it wraps up is eventually the station is sold. And what looked like it was a kind of a, it was a chance to create maybe a small,

tidy little cluster of stations, just sort of, you know, there was a little, that was too bad it went down that way. But did you take a you know, there was a, that was a, that was too bad. It went down that way. But did you take a, like, was it a bath? You had to take a bath or, uh, like, would you be okay? Let's call it a, let's call it a, let's call it a bird bath. I took a bird bath. It wasn't that good.

But quite the experience. And you, you got to work with your dad on that. And I learned a lot. I learned a lot. Cool. All right. Now, how do I get you to 1050? How do you end up, I guess you start as co-host of a Cebulski and Company? Yeah, I was, uh, I was at a radio too,

and TSN was starting their radio division. And I got a call from Todd Hayes, who was the senior producer at the time. I know Todd Hayes. He's been over here a few times. Yeah. Yeah. Todd's a great guy and a good friend. and we worked together at Off the Record. And he took over as the producer when I left, and he was the senior producer at TSN Radio. And he said to Rob Gray, who was the head of TSN Radio nationally, and he was in charge of starting the Toronto station, said they were looking for a co-host for Landsberg,

to tell you the truth, at first. And they weren't really interested in that. Like, Rob wasn't interested in it, TSN, they didn't want to go that direction. I think they had another thought in mind. But then Landsberg dropped out and it became this... James was going to be the co-host, right? Did you know that? Initially, the 4 o'clock show?

No, I did not know that. Behind the scenes, because it was never public, but the way it was being negotiated was Landsberg had never said yes. He was just being approached with it, and they thought, can we balance this with his OTR duties, and James will be the co-host. but then Landsberg bailed fairly late in the process. And all of a sudden James, like they had to get to air, they had an air date that was public. So James took over the show and now they're looking for a co-host for James. And then they

phoned me and, uh, I auditioned. I didn't even really audition. I kind of, it was more like I interviewed for it and they gave me the gig and it was a better gig. And just, I love TSN. I didn't even really audition. It was more like I interviewed for it. And they gave me the gig. And it was a better gig. And just, I love TSN. I love the people who run it. And it's fun to be back in sports. And so I'm like, yeah, let's do it. This is great.

Have you ever heard, was it the second? Yeah, the second appearance on my show by Mike Richards. I'm going to guess you haven't heard that yet. No. Okay. And now Mike Richards. You mean the one, you mean't heard that yet. No. Okay. And now Mike Richards. You mean the one, you mean not the second,

like as in your second show, but the one after he got let go? Yeah, yeah. Because I had Mike Richards here. Yeah, he didn't like his experience as much as I did. No, exactly. He feels, he almost,

I won't put, I'm trying, I don't want to misquote him. So it's just, I wish I'd pulled the clip, but he basically thought maybe TSN didn't give a shit about the radio station. Like that they almost, almost, almost, and I believe he might have used this term, but almost it's like they wanted to fail the radio station. I know.

I wouldn't agree with Mike because that was part of the Chum group. And so because the way Bell was divided up because it was radio, it belonged to the radio group, even though it was TSN's name on it. So the branding is TSN, but it's not run by the same people? Exactly. So it's not like we reported to the people who are making TV. And it's not even like the people who are the intermediary bosses really did. I mean, there was obviously overlap.

There was obviously a ton of crossover. Right, because you have the same parents. Right. So it's not that there was not a give a shit, but what were they going to do, right? Because they couldn't actually do any material. I'm sure there were tons of conversations that happened at that 30,000 foot level between all the big, big bosses about how this would work. But I also like, this is my opinion. I don't know this, but my guess would be at a certain point, you don't want to step on another executive's toes.

And if you can't really do it, like nobody wants to be half pregnant in this, in this business, right? Like you kind of like, if I'm in charge of it, okay, great. If I'm not, I got a lot to do and I've got other things people expect of me, so I'm not going to get involved. Uh, I think that in the early days that TSN pushed really hard, I think there was a big push out of the gate. Um, I know that there was a lot of conversations between their bosses and us in the early days and that kind of just went away, but I suspect it probably went away one because they weren't really in charge, and two, the station didn't do that great out of the gate. Okay, so I don't, I'm not a, what is it, Numeris. So Numeris

has the PPM results, and I don't, I'm not a subscriber, so I don't get the books, so I just see a little bit here and there, but what I do see, it's, I see Fan 590 dominates in the demo that 1050 wants. Yeah. I haven't looked at the books in a couple of years. When I was there, you know, it was weird. It was kind of, there was like this slow build theory. And it was kind of happening.

Like I remember when they put me and Kaz together. All right. So, okay. So you, eventually you move 9 a.m. to noon. That's right. And that's when you and Matthew Cause end up working together. That's right. Is that where you first, like, how did you, did you know Matthew before?

Matt worked at Off the Record. Matt worked at Off the Record. I've known Matt for a long time. See, it's all the pieces matter. Exactly, right? So you already knew you had good chemistry with Cause, because you do. Macko and Cause have great chemistry. Thank you.

You know, because we were pals for so long, and like, and basically the show was just our lives. It was a bit like Kornheiser and Wilbon, where they would be goofing around at the Washington Post, and someone said, we should record this. I mean, I wouldn't say that we have the same, we're obviously not Tony Kornheiser and Wilbon, but it's the same sort of thing. We're behind the scenes. Yeah, you're pals. I think you see this

a lot in media these days, where two guys who are obviously just pals, let's turn cameras on them. Right. Because they already have the chemistry, which is, just pals, let's turn cameras on them. Right. Vice does this so much. Because they already have the chemistry, which is, to me, that's such a key ingredient.

It may be the most important thing. Yeah, you're right. Without it, like, it's just... Without it, it doesn't work, which is why I'm always shocked. This is a quick aside,

but I'm always shocked when someone on the radio says, oh yeah, they teamed me with this person and I always ask the question, like, do you do like a chemistry test of some kind? Like, no,

they just put us together and we started recording which to me just seems sort of uh dangerous well most of the time it doesn't work yeah which is why you have teams turning over so often uh it's funny like James and I really really liked each other like Cebulski and I we like we're very different we're very different people but you know we're both young fathers and more or less the same age and a lot of the same points of reference. And we really liked each other. Sometimes I wish that our conversations off the air could have been recorded because when we went on the air, there was a lot of confusion about what that show was supposed to be. There was the paranoia of losing so bad to Bob McCowan, which is really an impossible fight.

He's been there forever. He's got a— And he's great at what he does. He's great at what he does. He's a bit of a legend, dare I say, in this market. 100%. Yeah. He was there when I was at the fan in 95.

That's a recipe. Yeah. If you're targeting the same demo and asking people to stop, you're used to, for whatever, 15 years or whatever, you've been going to 590 to listen to this show. Now, come up the dial and listen to 1050. Now, you can see with Overdrive how they're starting to chip away at that. But, you know, O-Dog is a star. McLennan, like Noodles, is really terrific. Hayes, I think, is as talented a young broadcaster as there is in the country right now.

So they really found a great formula. And even that got workshopped at noon for a couple of years before it got moved over. And the profile that O-Dog has and that Noodles have from their TV side, like all of this really helped. And so now they could really have a meaningful battle against McCowan. And I hope it works for them because they're all really good guys. But, you know, we weren't, you know,

it's like being the coach of an expansion team. Like you just know you're going to get fired. Oh yeah, you're right. Well, maybe not Gerard Gland. I don't know if he'll get canned. But it's like, remember, what was his name? The first Raptors coach was Brandon... get fired. Oh yeah. Well, maybe not Gerard Gland. I don't know if he'll get canned, but it's like, remember, what was his name? The first Raptors coach

was Brendan... Malone. Thank you. Brendan Malone. Brendan Malone. Sometimes I would be there and I would think like, he's Brendan Malone

and I'm Daryl Walker and we're going to get nailed. I like Daryl Walker. Oh, he was a... No. So, okay. So you're on TSN, Macko and Cause.

Right, right. You know, they wanted to put me and O'Neill together first. No, this is the stuff you're here to tell me. Yeah, this is what I'm telling you. So when the afternoon show blew up, O'Neill was clearly going to be a star. And I think Rob Gray very smartly said, again, the program director, very smartly thought, okay, we got to get this guy on the air. And this was an available space.

And Jeff and I liked each other, but I remember him phoning me one night and he's like, so what do you think of this? Right? Like, so I'm on the phone with O-Dog and I'm thinking, I don't know. He's like, well, you know, are we going to do this? I'm like, I don't know, Jeff. I don't know. Right? Like you could kind of see, like, it felt like an arranged marriage. Neither one of us were that into it force it you know but then i did tell them that cause i thought would be great and cause was doing like overnights and and uh you know weekends and to rob gray's credit he respected the fact that i told him that i would feel much more comfortable out there with matt and he rob had a let's give it a try mentality and he easily could have said, look, just try it with O-Dog and see how it goes. But he could see that I was not in that direction.

And he put me and Matt together. I'm always going to be grateful for that. And that took off within days. People could see it was just like, there was something there. And even the name of the show, even the name of the show rolls off the tongue, like Macko and Klaus. It just works, right? Yeah. I know. I know. Yeah. It's like Jesse and Gene, okay? Come on. You don't have to question it when it just works right i know i know yeah it's like jesse and gene okay come on you don't have to question it when it works you just know that's okay so uh by the way uh i had bill hayes here recently and i took off the mic i told him my about my

exchange of odog so i'm going to tell you now on the mic so i write odog a little email just a very polite little uh because i know he's not doesn't live too far from here like i'm just like jeff i'd love to have you on the show this is what it is here's some past guests so he doesn't think i'm a crazy guy you know you know mclean's been here you know mckenzie's been here like you why don't you come as well uh and i got back uh a short email that just said uh no interest just two words words, no interest, okay? So I'm telling Bill Hayes' story. I'm like, that's my, yeah. I'm like, Bill, I go, because Bill knew O-Dog and we were talking about him. And he's like,

because, of course, Bill's son is Brian Hayes, so he knows O-Dog. He's like, that is the most O-Dog thing I've ever heard. He goes, that's him. This is what Bill Hayes tells me. So he said, don't take that personally. That is him. But at least it's better than no reply, right? But at the same time, he's a great, great teammate.

He's the guy who walks in with donuts for everybody. Or at least he was while I was there. And there's lots of times. I think because he comes out of that hockey culture and he's kind of like, we're teammates, right? Like we're a team. And TSN's the best. I don't know what Sportsnet's like because I've never worked there.

I hope it's like this. But all that stuff you hope is true about what it would be like to work in sports, it's's the best. Like, I don't know what Sportsnet's like because I've never worked there. I hope it's like this, but all that stuff you hope is true about what it would be like to work in sports, it's kind of true. Okay, so tell me this. I'm going to get a little personal with you now. Okay. May I get personal with you?

You may. I feel like we have a rapport now and we're friends. We do. What's this, like colors? Hey, Hodges, we got a rapport. We have a rapport. You, Macko and Cause on TSN,

9 a.m. to 12 p.m. You disappear from the show? Yeah, you probably want me to help you out here a little bit, right? Go ahead, my friend. Yeah. So I got sick. What had happened was for about a year, I mean for years, but for a year really intensely, I was suffering from acute insomnia.

It was terrible. And I had had actually a sleep disorder that had gone undiagnosed. Misdiagnosed is a better way to put it. Apnea, just, you know, your run-of-the-mill apnea, but... So you couldn't fall asleep? No, I couldn't stay asleep. Apnea is really interesting. There's like a fold in your skin inside your throat. And when you lie back, it tends to close. And the older you get, you know, just everything loosens up on you. You're like a car, right? Just like everything gets looser. So it's why it tends to be when you get older, this thing seems to affect more people. But I was just a disaster. And you do your best

not to show it on the air. You know, I, I always prided myself on being professional. And you know, when you say yes to a gig, you do the gig as really as well as you can. So that was a real priority, but man, behind the scenes, I was a mess, you know, like I was sleeping. I was so tired cause I'd have to get up at about five 30 every morning to go to work, which is early, but not insanely early. But, uh, I would be taking like freezing cold showers and like punching my leg in the shower to wake up. Cause I'd be so stunned. I found out later when I did get properly diagnosed, I was waking up on average 27 times an hour. Wow. Well, because the fold in your skin, when it closes your throat, your brain won't allow you to stop breathing. So it fires a jolt of adrenaline

so that you wake up. To save your life. Yeah, exactly. You can't... If you held your breath, you would eventually breathe. Your brain would make you. You could fight it for as long as you possibly could, but you couldn't stop breathing of your own will.

You're right. That's a good point. You can't just consciously say, I'm going to take my last breath and hold my breath and then die. And that's it. And you just can't do it. Your brain would knock you out and start breathing again before that even happened.

It would be like a fail-safe mechanism. But how long did you live with this? Is it a disorder or a disease? Yeah, it's a disorder. So how long do you live with this disorder before it gets diagnosed? Well, at first, really, I started noticing when I was at Radio 2.

And I just assumed it was because I was doing a morning show and I had a young child, and I was really, like, I almost fell asleep on my bike on the way to work one time. Wow. Like, on the street, I almost drove into a parked car because I started kind of borderline nodding off. So I went and had it checked out, and they told me it was fine. It was just my hours. I went back and had it checked after I, you know, like after things gotten really bad at TSN and they told me it was impossible that I would be at this sort of advanced stage without it being. So I'd lived with it for a long time.

So here's the thing, Mike. It was, it was interesting because what eventually happens when you don't sleep is cascading effects start to happen all over the place. Like I put on a bunch of weight because your body's in total survival mode. So you know what it's like when you're really tired and you just need a plate of fries because your body is literally saying, I don't have enough energy to do this. So get me some shitty energy to work with, right? Sugar or carbs or whatever. So I put on a bunch of weight that makes things worse. And then like I had always lived with anxiety issues my whole life, but most

of like most people in our business, um, but most of my life they were manageable, you know, like they're worse, they're better, whatever. But I kind of just chalked it up to being a creative person in a creative industry. But that gets worse because you're not sleeping. And so you're deranged all the time. So your moods are going all over the place so my wife goes away on business um and i'm at home and i have this series of panic attacks one night and i go into work the next day and i'm like like dry heaving like my stomach is so and so they send me home and uh they were so good to me like this this was when i first left you know and the plan was for me to come right back and that was my plan plan. I said, like, I'm coming right back here. I said, the docs are going to put me on some medicine, which they did, and it'll take about two weeks and then I'm going to come back. And I was, you know, texting back

and forth with Jeff McDonald, our PD, about how I got to make sure, like I left sort of at the beginning of June. I said, well, I got to be back for the draft because I'm not missing the NHL draft. Like there's no way. Right. So that's the mindset I'm going into this with. And then I just don't react well to the medicine. And then the next little while in my life becomes this sort of merry-go-round of me being introduced to different medicines and them having adverse effects on me. And nobody wanting me to go back to work until like I'm kind of cleared. But the doctor's all saying, you're not really responding to this stuff the way you're supposed to.

So, yes, I can't speak personally, but people in my family, I know this from experience of people in my family, that it's not an exact science in terms of the medication. It really isn't. You really do have to find the right balance and you have to try this, see how you react and then make adjustments here. Like it's not, you know, you can't, you're overambitious thoughts to come right back, of course, as you being you can't, your overambitious thoughts to come right back, of course, is you being maybe a little naive and over-

Well, and also I had gone on medication at different times in my life to sort of, you know, because you don't feel good, and whatever the doctor says, maybe this is a good idea. And it always worked. Like, I had a prescription that worked. I had done it a couple times,

and then got off it when I felt better. And so I just assumed it would work, but it didn't. And they explained to me, look, your body's constantly changing, your circumstances are constantly changing. And at that point assumed it would work, but it didn't. And they explained to me, look, your body's constantly changing. Your circumstances are constantly changing. And at that point, it's almost, I keep describing it as, you know, you're in a ship and you're leaving the harbor. And all of a sudden, the safety of the harbor is gone and you're in the open sea. And nobody really knows what to do.

And the interesting thing about it was, like, I remember O sent me a note just saying, I hope you can enjoy your Christmas. You know what I mean? Because I'd been gone at that point for like half a year. Right. And everybody was really worried. And I'm, you know, for good reason. Well, I can tell you, me, who's nobody connected to TSN in any way, was fielding many notes and emails. Like, what's wrong?

Yeah. What's the story? What's wrong with Macco? Where's Macco? And here's the thing. I didn't want to say anything because I was kind of just going through it. And I was really trying to drive, like I didn't want to think about work.

And they were great with me. Honestly, Mike, I can't say enough. Like they were so great with me. Because they had their own reasons to want to rush me back, but they never did. They never did. So to explain what it was though, like O sends me this note and I kind of said,

no, I'm okay. And here's the weird thing. I kind of relate to no, I'm okay. And here's the weird thing. I kind of relate to, um, athletes who have concussions now in the sense that like my brain chemistry kind of changed, right? Like the way they explained it to me was when the brain is dealing with anxiety, it can go in one of two directions.

And the very common direction is called hyperactivity where everything's going faster. Right. It's like you're in, uh, in the fight or flight mode. You're in fight mode. Like, is that a bit of mania? Yeah. Yeah.

Like, you know what it's like even when you're anxious over normal life stuff, right? Actually, you should talk to my wife. I have mild mania where I just have too much energy and I need to do things. Yeah. I can relate to this. So you're kind of, you know, your hands sweat. It's hard to, like, keep thoughts really simple because everything's speeding up, right? Yeah. I can relate to this. So you're kind of, you know, your hands sweat. It's hard to like keep thoughts really simple because everything's speeding up, right? Right.

The interesting thing was my body reacted, my brain reacted specifically with something they call hypoactivity, which is actually when everything slows down. It's like they explained to me in nature, if your nervous system perceives a threat, you go fight or flight. And mine actually went into flight. So things slowed down. And so reading would become tougher. My memory was affected.

And I always had a good memory, you know? Like, that was something that really helped me out in sports. Because I wasn't, like, an obsessive sports fan. I was a normal sports fan. Right. Like, I was a normal guy who loved sports, as opposed to a professional. As opposed to the guys like my son and Merrick,

who can tell you, like, you the third line winger on the third level farm team or whatever. Exactly. And there's lots of those guys out there. But I wasn't that guy. But what I could do is I would watch and I would retain a lot of stuff. And so that really helped me. And

I'd lost that ability. My vision was blurry. My sense of time and space was distorted. And so when I say everything slowed down, it was like, I'm okay. Like I'm not in panic. I'm not suffering, but everything's off. And it reminded me of all those times I'd talked to NHL players who'd gotten dinged and had concussions and they would, you know, it was like skating with the yellow jersey on, you know, like you're in practice. Like they always used to say, me and Lansbury used to laugh, you know, I'm throwing lightly off the mound.

You know what I mean? There doesn't seem to be anything wrong. So that's why it took so long. And then eventually what happened is they had plans to do away with the slot altogether. I had no idea they were going to fire Matt. But I did eventually. I got better.

And it was really funny, Mike. You know what actually helped me more than anything? Tell me. All this stuff was just sort of common sense rest exercise better diet take a breather like i had to push myself you know in some ways i really feel like you know i'm 47 years old now and this happened to me when i was 45 and we all know people at 45 who have heart attacks or strokes or disease or whatever. And that's not how I responded. I responded was my brain shut down. It wasn't my organs, like my heart or my kidneys.

You lived to tell the tale. Kind of, in a way. I felt like, you know, I got a warning, right? Like I've known people who are in their 40s or early 50s and they're redlining. And their heart gives them problems. You know, it's weird when it's the brain, because we don't really know how to discuss it. Like if you think of it as an organ in your body, then no, it's not weird.

But if you think of it as the source and the center of your personality and who you are as a human being, well, then it is kind of weird, right? It's like, so are you not you anymore? I'm like, no, I'm exactly me. It's just, it's a bit foggy. So although it did, it did take some time and there's, I guess you call it trial and error, I guess, with the medication. We found something that worked. You found something, you find the right mix or balance of medications that work for you. Yeah, they actually had to speed my brain up.

I took like a derivative of Ritalin, you know, which was weird, right? Yeah, yeah. I find it fascinating. Yeah, me too. So I'm conversing with you now, and you would never know. I know that people would never know you were ever suffering from anything of this nature. Can I ask you how your sleep is these days? It's not great, but it's better, and it's good enough. And more importantly, my lifestyle has changed, because before I would push so hard. I was always a guy who had 15 projects on the go.

And I wouldn't describe myself as a workaholic. I said that to my therapist once. I was in there and I said, I'm not a workaholic. She kind of looked at me and she's like, you know what those are? Because maybe you are a little. What was the expression I always used

for somebody I still live by? Bite off more than you can chew and then chew it. Even with this, I went crazy with the podcast this week. I got four kids. I got a full-time job. I was at soccer last night. There's really no room for anything else, but if I had an idea in an hour

for something I want to do, I'm going to find room. You know what I mean? I think that's great. One of the weird things about our society generally is that we value things that aren't necessarily good for us. And when they go wrong, we tend to think that person broke as opposed to questioning what was behind the value system to begin with.

And I don't want to get kumbaya about this because I still believe in business and I still believe in show business and working hard and all those things. It was really – I remember saying to some people in my life, it was really gratifying when I was healthy to realize I could go back to working hard again because I like it. And I really missed the test of trying to make something good all the time. But the value system that changed was,

I used to think that it was a virtue to never let go, to always be on, like your brain always has to be going or else you've wasted that time. Right. And now I realize that letting go isn't a waste of time. It's actually your conserving time in a way. Because when you get back to it, you'll be stronger. So you've improved your diet.

Yeah. You exercise more. I do. Yeah. Like I've dropped about 20 pounds. Cool. And so in the end, it's funny, right? Because when I disappeared because I had a public position, I mean, it's not like me and Matt were superstars, but you're in the public eye.

Yeah. That's the thing. If you were in accounting, nobody would dare talk about it or know or you'd get your privacy and everything. But because you're over our airwaves and we hear you in our car and stuff. Yeah. And you're in people's lives. People feel they have a, almost like they have a right to know

what's wrong with Mako. Why isn't he on the radio anymore? It's funny because, you know, I'm a pretty private person, you know. Even though I've worked in the public eye, mostly behind the scenes, but even just like I've been around show business since I was seven years old

with my dad. Like I've always been around it uh and it feels very natural to me to put on a show for people you know whether you're producing it or you're in it or whatever but uh but at the core of it like i'm i'm a pretty private person and discussing anything like i'll tell you everything you want to know about what i think about the leaves, but you know, I'm not going to, you know, share my family's history with you or anything. And that's changed over the years a little bit, but I guess, I always felt a little bad that I didn't share a bit more of what was going on. Uh, but at the same time, I'm like, no,

I'm kind of going to take this time for myself and just sort through this. And then when, and you know, it's funny because Landsberg's gone through problems. And his kinds of problems are different than mine. As they are for everybody. I mean, everybody's got their own story. But his way of dealing with his life is to be very public. You know, I mean, there's nobody he won't tell his story to. Well, he's literally a poster boy for mental health.

Right, exactly. You know, whereas I'm of the mind that, you know, I'll'll never hide it but i'm not in a hurry to share it either you know like my way of sort of trying to be helpful is um is to support the values that i think ultimately help people you know i think like rather than i don't know like just to sort of say like you know try to be healthier but more importantly also don't be afraid of your but but your, as I listen to it, what I hear is that you know something's wrong

and you seek medical help and they say, oh, it's because you're a shift, you're waking, whatever. You know, everything's fine. But there is something wrong. You have an illness and it needs to be treated for you to have the life you're worthy of, that you deserve. And you almost,

if you listen to the initial doctors and just, oh, you know, you, you would never be at the place you're at now where you feel much better. You might not be getting your eight hours a night, but you're doing much better. It's kind of weird how it all goes,

right? Yeah. Like I know I'm not, you can look at your life and the crappy stuff that happens and say, I really resent the fact that this crappy stuff happened. And that's a fair response sometimes. And there were some pretty tough moments where I wasn't sure if my brain was going to work normally anymore. You know, that was really hard. But coming out to the other side of it, you say, my brain does work pretty good these days and I value it differently.

And I don't think I could have arrived at that place because I only ever cared about whether or not the shows were good. I only ever cared about, you know, was the job a good job? And I don't know, I just kind of value it differently these days, Mike. And to your point, that probably doesn't happen if I don't get sick the way I got sick. If I had just found a way to take a two-week dip, I would have been back at it the way I'd always been at it. Do you think it was

good for you, convenient for you, if you will, that you worked for Bell Media, and Bell Media, you mentioned Michael Landsberg, but the Let's Talk campaign is very public. Yes. And that perhaps because you worked for the company that, you know, was so publicly Let's Help, that you were able to get the help.

Yes. I've thought about that a lot. And I thought that is very fortunate. And what it really makes me feel is that if we belong to big companies, they probably should all be invested in our lives this way. And not just about mental health. Well, you have to treat mental health the way you would treat cancer or heart condition. But just health. Just health.

Just quality of life. If we take it away, I think what makes mental health interesting is that because it was buried in the shadows for so long, we tend to look at it as though, it's almost like we're talking about trans rights or something, like something exotic or strange that people in the mainstream don't get. But that's ridiculous, right? We all understand health and we all understand gender. I mean,

all these things are less exotic than you actually think they are if you just sort of take it on a human level, right? So should a big company be interested in your welfare? Yeah. Yeah, it should. It absolutely should. And that extends to me for things like daycare or flexible hours for parents, like these kinds of things. Work-life balance.

Yeah. Because in the end, you'll have better workers. Absolutely. Now, this big company that was so good to you while you dealt with your illness and got better.

So tell me, why exactly did they decide they didn't want Mako and Kaz on their airwaves anymore? Yeah, financial. If I may ask. Yeah, just strictly financial. When we sat down with them. I mean, I never sat down with Maddie.

But did you get let go at the same time? No, no, separately. Because I basically, going back to September of last year, I was saying, I'm going to be back soon, you know. Right. And it kind of got staggered, and then we never really set a date, and then it got kind of weird.

It was sort of like, we're not taking concrete steps, even though I've been medically cleared to go. And eventually they came to me and said, we're just not going to bring you back. And then a few months later, they said the same to Maddie, and the shift was basically just shuttered. It wasn't Gareth and Coz anymore. It wasn't going to be anybody.

It was going to be an extended morning show, an extended Leafs lunch with Dan Patrick in the middle. So we actually didn't get replaced by anyone. They literally just stopped making radio from, or stopped making an original show, a different show from 9 to 12. You're irreplaceable. Thanks.

We do the podcast now, and I love it. Okay, so let's talk about what you're up to these thanks we do the podcast now and I love it okay let's talk so let's talk about what you're up to these days this is long Mike I know are we breaking

your record here no we're doing no Bob Elliott has the record Bob Elliott came and told me baseball stories for over two hours I believe it

actually you know what I just remember now he's the best his record's been broken by Howard Berger of all people but we're wrapping up here because I want to hear

about what you're up to now. But before we get to your podcast with Matthew Cause, you work with Strombo, right? Again, on Strombo's House? I do, yeah. Because that to me, were you involved

in the Hip 30 thing? Indirectly. Indirectly. The Hip 30 thing was great. Tell George next time you're talking to him. I will. Well, I'm going to see him

after this, so I'll tell him today. It was great. It was great. Now, tell me what you're doing with Strombo's House, though, because that's a pretty cool project I will. Well, I'm going to see him after this, so I'll tell him today. It was great. It was great. Now, tell me what you're doing with Strombo's house, though, because that's a pretty cool project, too. Well, I'm indirectly related

with that right now, but I think there's going to be some really interesting things that come out of that house, you know? Like, just give us the premise, though. This is like... Well, Strombo's house is simple. You just invite...

Like, it's like you're doing here. Except he gets like... Except that he does it with, you know... Like Blue Rodeo shows up. Yeah, exactly. Right. And if I pulled out a guitar and played and you taped it,

then you would have Mike's house. Right. How do I get invited to Strombo's house? How do I get on this list? I know so many people who are on there, like Tim Thompson,

for example, the buddy. Yeah, he's been here boundless and he played hockey at Guelph with my cousin. Oh, is that right? What do I need to do to get on the guest list?

I don't know the answer to that, Mike. Ask George today. I will mention it. It's clearly an oversight. And now let's talk about, okay, I have listened to your podcast. How many episodes you done with Cause? We did the sixth one yesterday.

How often do you record? Once a week. We do Thursday and upload Thursday. Where do you record? At his place. Is his basement nicer than mine? Matt's not broke. And so we go to his condo in the distillery.

Not like me, you mean. No, no. Oh, the distillery district. Yeah, and he lives in the distillery. No, not like me either, Mike. Matt's a Somalian. And that's not, yeah. Anyway.

So you're at Cause's? We're at his condo. And that's not a... Yeah. Anyway. So you're at Causes. We're in his condo. Okay. And we sit at his kitchen table. And what kind of setup, I have to ask, as a podcaster? Worse than yours. Like, we have two crappy mics and basically just... But it sounds pretty good. I'll tell you.

I thought it sounded pretty good. Really? I don't like the sound of it. No, I feel like technically... I'm not rich either. But when I decided to do this project, I wanted to go big or go home, I guess you'd say. My buddy, Andrew Stokely, I don't know shit about microphones. I said to Andrew Stokely,

how do I sound like I'm professional? In a radio, I want to sound good. He said, for your budget, Mike, well, actually, no. He didn't look at my budget. He said, buy these Rode Procaster mics from this guy, and they were like $330 each. You got these for and they were like $330 each.

You got these for $330? $330 each. That's a good price. And three of them. So it ended up, the final bill of everything, not counting these swing arms, because they came later,

and the final bill, and not counting the laptop, obviously, the final bill was $1,600 for everything. Yeah, Kaz and I put in about $500 all in. Yeah, we went cheap. But that's a mistake, because I think we're going to be doing this

for a while. Especially since Kars has money. He could have put in another thousand. He really could have and he didn't even offer. He went 50-50 with me, the cheap bastard.

Come on, Matt. I think we're going to keep doing it. It's amazingly like the show we used to do. It was very nice to see. I'd always wondered when I get back

to doing radio with Matt again, will we have the same chemistry? And, you know, within like a minute. It's like riding a bike. Yeah, it really was. Like, it just, I'm so, I'm so grateful. Because he's such a great guy. Like, he's such a nice person.

And he's so damn funny. And he's just the easiest, like, Matt's the easiest guy in the world to work with. He really is. Like, he's hard to explain. There's really nobody else like him. I, man, I hope another company snaps him up soon or maybe our own company snaps him back. But he shouldn't be off the airways for long.

He's too good. What about yourself? Like, have you been able to monetize the Madden Cause? That's the new name of the show. Yeah, it sounds like he named it. Yeah. Madden Cause podcast. No, no, no.

So right now, you're just, you're basically, it's a way for you to work your muscle, right? Yeah. Yeah, which is great. I think I like it because you have great rapport. There's our word again. You have great chemistry. It sounds good. And it's interesting content.

I'm a sports fan and I enjoy it. Thanks, man. I appreciate that. I told Matt sports fan, and I enjoy it. Thanks, man. I appreciate that. I told Matt I don't want to monetize this. Like, I don't. It's like, you know when you get together with a buddy, and you go down to the park, and you toss the ball around, football or baseball or whatever, or you shoot hoops?

It's kind of like that. Like, you just sort of hang out, and we just happen to record it. That's true. It's really true. That's cool. Yeah, it is. So every Thursday, you head over there, and we just happen to record it. That's true. It's really true. That's cool. Yeah, it is. So every Thursday you head over there, and then you record, and then you upload it the same day.

Yep. So is it, like, I'm just curious of the back-end stuff. Like, you have a web server you upload to? Audio Boom. We just upload to Audio Boom and then make it available to iTunes. And then they take care of all the RSS and all that. They take care of all that. Right. Okay, cool. And so then it's, you know, if someone wants to check then make it available to iTunes. And then they take care of all the RSS and all that. They take care of all that. Right.

Okay, cool. And so then it's, you know, if someone wants to check it out, there are iTunes. Oh, let's tell people to. The Maco and Coz podcast. Okay, so search on iTunes. Just search for Maco and Coz. Yep. And on our Twitter feeds if you want.

Like he's mcoz56, C-A-U-Z, mcoz56. And I'm at Bob Macowitz. Cool, man. I'm very glad you finally made the trek over here, even though you thought you were going to Mimico. I hope you're not disappointed. I'm excited that there's a place in Toronto I never knew about.

New Toronto. That's very exciting. I hope that was clear, Mike. There was a lot to cover. I think it was fantastic. Like jam-packed. We covered everything. I don't think people know about your experience with the radio

station in Vancouver. I bet you a lot of people don't even know about Glulig. Probably not. Although there's a reason for that. We weren't very big. How big did you get? I played a show we opened with Xtreme at RPM for a thousand people

and I talked with Gary Cherone about yoga. Okay. So that was kind of a... More than words. I watched Nuno Betancourt's soundcheck and half of it was like the most incredible guitar playing you'd ever heard in your life and the other half was the worst garbage you've ever heard in your entire life.

And that brings us to the end of our 246th show. You can follow me on Twitter. I'm at Toronto Mike. Bob, as he mentioned, is at Bob Makowitz. Makowitz, by the way, M-A-C-K-O-W-Y-C-Z. Our friends at Great Lakes Brewery are at Great Lakes Beer,

and propertyinthesix.com is at Brian Gerstein. See you all next week when my guest is Ziggy. I won't go away. Cause everything is rose and green. You've been under my skin for more than eight years.