Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - Bruce Croxon: Toronto Mike'd #730

Episode Date: October 3, 2020

Mike chats with Bruce Croxon about co-founding Lavalife, being a Dragon on CBC's Dragons' Den, founding Round 13 Capital, co-hosting The Disruptor on BNN and parenting children with food allergies.

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Write me and I'll introduce you to Austin Keitner. And Palma Pasta. Enjoy the taste of fresh homemade Italian pasta and entrees from Palma Pasta in Mississauga and Oakville. I'm Mike from TorontoMike.com. And joining me this week is Bruce Croxon. Welcome, Bruce. Good morning, Mike. Good morning, Mike, indeed, because I saw a tweet from you this morning.

It says, woke up this morning believing in karma like never before. Hashtag in it together. I need to know, what's that referencing exactly well yeah i mean we'll see how well this interview ages but yesterday um as we all know this morning the president of the free world uh tested positive uh to great irony and you, some would say karma, right? I mean, how long can you continue to defy the odds and preach what you should be doing when it's the wrong thing before it catches up with you?

I was looking at some footage on Twitter. I saw some footage from that event they had Saturday on the White House lawn. So, you know, I had an event during COVID, and we were all in a circle six feet apart in a park. And I watched this, but they're all hugging and kissing each other. No masks. Like they're right in each other's grill. Yeah.

It's crazy. Like, I mean, and this is the example that is, you know, supposed to be followed. And, you know, it makes you think about the different models and what could have been different and was 200,000 deaths necessary. And you look at one extreme where New Zealand shut everything down, the deaths were minimal, they're fine. And then, you know, the other extreme where Sweden didn't do anything and it becomes an issue of, you know, how many deaths are you willing to put up with in the short term,

in their case, to get where you need to get, right? It's like that scene in Fight Club. Like, how many deaths is at a point where it's it's more important than the the price of shutting everything down like i know i know they want to keep the economy going and we're gonna you know talk a lot about business in this episode but uh at what price like if we know the spreading is happening indoors like restaurants where people eat indoors or bars or strip clubs or inside gyms, you know, like if you notice, we're not in my basement studio. No, everything's good. We're outside. But I mean, what my point is that, you know, pick one way or the other, but going down

the middle, you know, divided as a country, you don't get the benefits of either. I mean, I would say, you know, maybe Sweden did it right, right? They don't, you know, less mental health, you know, they incurred deaths in the short term, but now they're good. But, and New Zealand did it right, you know, devastated the economy, but nobody died. Right. But the United States, and I guess to a certain extent, Canada, but less so is, you know, down the middle, that's not a strategy, right? So how are you, Bruce, like, how are you personally holding up during this? I think we're seven plus months into this thing. Like, how are you, Bruce? How are you personally holding up during this? I think we're seven plus months into this thing. How are you doing? Well, you know what, Mike?

Maybe it's not evidence for the fact that I come and do a podcast, but I'm an introvert by nature. So I think introverts are doing better than people that rely on extreme social settings to get their juice. So I'm doing okay. I'm in technology. Technology has been a good place to be, you know, if you want to talk about business. You know, my family's okay.

I haven't lost anybody close to me. I'm touching wood. I'm looking for the wood. Here it is on your deck here. Oh, yeah, there is some. That's so I don't break the plastic. There you go. You touched the wood. um i'm happy and thankful for that so relatively speaking um very tough times but i'm doing fine thanks for asking i'm always surprised when introverts uh you know self-proclaimed introverts uh end up on television. Yeah, or on podcasts. No, exactly.

I'm an introvert, but I'm also an entrepreneur. And the Dragon's Den, I think is what you're referring to, starting with that, was a great, great, great, great means to an end on where I wanted to take my career next. We're going to definitely get into the Dragon's Den, which is where most listeners, I think, learned about you on Dragon's Den. I'd say that's the number one spot where they said, oh, this Bruce guy, I like what he has to say. I think that's like a discovery.

Not all of them liked it. You know, I had my share of people saying, what the heck is this guy talking about? Well, what do they know? They're not allowed to listen to the show. There you go. All right, there's a jam. So I guess I've had a few.

I'm trying to think of the Bruces I've had on, but I just want to know whether you know this song. So let, this is a jam. So I guess I've had a few. I'm trying to think of the Bruces I've had on. But I just want to know whether you know this song. So let's listen for a bit. So I'm going to look in your eyes, see if there's any recognition yet. No. Let's let it brew a bit. Canadian? No.

Okay. But it's a Bruce. Well, this is by Rick Spring Nope. Okay. But it's a Bruce. Well, this is by Rick Springfield. Okay. But let me tell you, brother, started being a bother when he made the cover of Time Magazine. 1984. I was at this party in the Well-Heeled Hills

Just the other night Her name was Shelly I introduced myself She just smiled and said, alright Well, we got talking and drinking wine And she said she liked my music Thought it was fine She said, let's make love, your place or mine.

And in the middle of the passion, I was on the borderline. When she called out her name, but it wasn't mine. She called me Bruce, Bruce, Bruce. So this is Rick Springfield's song about a woman who thought he was Bruce Springsteen. There you go, man. So if you need a theme song for any future television shows, Bruce is out there by Rick Springfield. Rick Springfield.

Thanks for that. Enjoy it. You're welcome, man. Anything for you. You mentioned your family, so I know you've been open about this. I want to open with a question about your kids and allergies. Because you've got a boy and a girl, right? Yeah, 17 and 15.

And here, I'll bring down Rick a little bit here. Tell me a little bit. I'm very interested in this. I have four kids myself, but I'm not currently, thankfully, I'm not having to deal with allergies like with my children. There's no pertin allergies. But tell us about, especially, not only Addy, but tell us about Lucas's allergies.

Oh, man, you've been doing your homework. Yeah, so, you know, Lucas was born with life-threatening food allergies. He was allergic to everything under the sun. I mean, milk, dairy. Like, he went through all the food groups, and by the time you were left with it, when we first found out, it was like, what's this kid going to eat, man?

Well, can you tell us? Like, what is left? Because I know peanuts is on the list, and fish, and lentils found out, it was like, what's this kid going to eat, man? Well, can you tell us, like, what is left? Because I know peanuts is on the list and fish and lentils. Yeah, peanuts is nuts, fish. So, you know, he could eat, you know, basics like rice. But what it really made us do, fresh fruit and vegetables, no problem. Okay, good.

So, you know, all the basics could be covered. But what it made you do is become hyper alert to, you know, every food label and what was going into his mouth and you know i'm a huge third world traveling guy i'd love plop plop you know plucking myself down in far-reaching places and we realized pretty quick that that was off the agenda and you know fundamentally changed how we lived you get on a plane you wipe everything down and it introduced a level of anxiety that, you know, I didn't think we'd be dealing with by having kids. It was, I was,

I'm a, I'm a older dad, right? So I got, how old is Lucas now? Lucas is 17. I got out of the gate pretty late. So, you know, I thought I was prepared, you know, I was preparing myself for 40 years before Lucas showed up. Right. And yeah, it yeah, it was, it was, uh, it was challenging. So I got behind Food Allergy Canada and learned everything I could. And we raise a bunch of money every year to try and, you know, forward the momentum to getting a cure for this. And yeah, cause it's pretty fundamental, right? What goes in your mouth, you shouldn't have to be worried about dying. But, uh, you, I guess this, this forces you to basically, I would say eat healthier, right? More like no processed food, for example. Exactly. You know, and we were pretty good at that to begin with. Um, but now there was an,

you know, an element of being hypervigilant about it. Yeah. So we eat pretty clean. Now I, part of my ignorance here, but I have a nephew who had a tree nut allergy and then he no longer has it. So tell me, does that happen? So it's all linked to the immune system, right? And you come out of the womb, if your immune system is compromised, you could be susceptible and allergic. And as your immune system gets stronger and you grow, you can outgrow some of this stuff. So, Lukey boy has outgrown most of it. Peanuts are tough to outgrow. So, he's still got the peanut and certain types of fish, but, you know, he's, you know, he's a lot less stressed, let's put it that way, you know, about having to look at

everything that goes in his mouth, you know. And I could imagine, like, when you're at a restaurant and you ask the waitress or waiter and you're just like, is there, there's no peanuts, I have an allergy. There's a lot of trust involved there, right? When your life is at stake. Well, it's been an interesting evolution over 17 years because 17 years ago, it was still relatively new, right? So waiters or waitresses, what do you mean? You know, but over the years I've watched it and it's changed to, oh God, I'm really glad

you brought that up, I'll tell the chef, right? Because they deal with it all the time. So especially peanut, you know, it's everywhere. And then again, I'm curious about this because I had a cousin when I was growing up who had the peanut allergy when it was very rare. Very rare back then. This is way back in the 80s, late 80s.

And nowadays, I think I know personally several children who have peanut allergies. So what happened? I have no idea. Was it being diagnosed better? We don't know. No, it's definitely on the rise. Because, I mean, even back then, if you ate a peanut butter sandwich, if you were allergic, you'd die, right? So, yeah, of course. So it was tough. Exactly. So

no. So I think there's, there's no, um, a hundred percent agreed thesis, but the one that I think is most prevalent is that we've lived too cleanly over the years and our antibodies just haven't had a chance to develop well enough to fight everything because it's not a third world problem. It's a first world problem. Right. And we live so cleanly and we're so hyper about dirt and, you know, like playing in the yard and keeping things clean. I think that's a big part of what's happened. And then there's another school of thought that's about the pesticide use and, you know, how much pesticides we use in food and what's that done to our immune systems. And

there's a, there's a theory there as well. And your daughter has the egg allergy. She outgrew it. Right. So she's, she's in the clear. She's good. And they both, both of them, both of your children having an egg allergy. Is that, is that a coincidence or? No, I mean, so genetics is part of it. You know, I'm allergic, I'm allergic to penicillin. Yeah, me too. Are you? Yeah. I would shake your hand, but we don't do that anymore. No, we don't. We fist pump virtually. And, and it's like, um, that side of my family, uh, has shellfish, you know? Um, so there is a genetic component. I'm pretty sure. Although once again, they haven't proven or disproven that.

Now, as a resident of this province, I'm going to do a little segue here just to current events. And how are you, like, how do you feel about communication? My question is, I guess the rules changed yesterday in Ontario. And it was, to me, it was as clear as mud. There was this whole message about how like, don't leave your home unless you have to. But meanwhile you could have a hundred people in a bar. Like, so I'm curious, like, like,

have you been following the guidance from the Ford government? As best I can. It sounds like I'm a day behind. Yeah, there was stuff changed yesterday, but I don't, it was, it was sort of like, and I heard a message about, Hey, that pod thing that we said, that bubble thing, uh, is gone now. So it's like whoever you live with, but at the same time, uh, like people can collect, you can go to the gym right now and work out with 10 people. So you sound confused.

Is it, was it a confusing day yesterday? I found it confusing. Cause I even, my buddy Greg Brady and I were back and he's like, sure. Oh, I can go to a bar and have a hundred people have a hundred people, but I can't have my neighbor over. And I'm like, no, I think, I think the rule is you can have your neighbor over, but you got to stay six feet apart outdoors. And if you're indoors, I wouldn't do that myself actually. But if you're, you know, you can still have it like we're right now, 10 feet apart.

And to me, that's, that's safe. Yeah. Because if you have COVID, I have COVID, we can't, can't transmit it. Exactly. So, you know, I think what we're all experiencing is we're sorting through it, right? And, you know, politicians, they're no more brilliant than anybody else. So they're sorting through it too, right? And, you know, I got to say, like, if you want to talk politics, that's a whole other thing. I mean, I was not a big supporter of the Ford regime historically.

But I got to say, you know, I think Doug Ford has done an incredible job of communicating, of taking charge when we needed leadership. You know, I looked at how direct he was with the questions he was being asked and how forthright he was. And, you know, there was no bullshit, right? And you look at how it was, versus how it was handled south of the border. Oh, yeah.

I mean, the guy's gone way up in my estimation. So I'm going to give him a day, you know, grace on that 24 hours if he wasn't crystal clear. He's earned it. He's earned it, man. Yeah, like he's done a good job. I often wonder, because I've heard this from others who say, I didn't like Doug Ford, but I think he's done a good job. And then I always wonder, how much is Doug Ford benefiting

from the shit show south of the border? Because I think there were some fears that he might be a bit Trump-ish, if you will, and then we saw, oh, he's not going to be at all like Trump. He's going to be. He actually might be serving his constituents. Right. Yes. What a novel, what a novel thought that is in a democracy.

Right. And we were all pleasantly surprised. Yes, we were. And kudos to him. Right. Because it could have been different. And I think he, I just think he did a really good job. All right. Well, you've done some great jobs and we're going to go back in time a little bit

here before I get you to a dragon stand and all the great work you're doing now. But Mark Weisblatt. So this is a message for the listeners. Mark Weisblatt, who was visiting every month and he he's tremendous. If you haven't subscribed to the 12, Bruce,

you've got to subscribe to the 1236 newsletter that Mark puts out every weekday. 1236.ca. I want to say. I hope I didn't screw that up. But Mark Weisblatt, for all the listeners, he'll be in this backyard Monday afternoon. So at some point Monday, his episode will drop. I know people have been waiting an extra 30 days for it. So it's coming very, very soon.

So when Mark Weisblatt heard that you were coming on, Bruce, he suggested this awful Village People song. So I'm goingisblatt heard that you were coming on, Bruce, he suggested this awful Village People song. So I'm going to play a little of this. This is from 85, I think. We're living in the 80s here. It sounds like 85. Yeah. I'll bring it down because it's terrible

but this Village People Jam is about a business you've been in so I'm going to ask you if you don't mind here this is the Lava Life story. Oh, it's right here. So we admit it's a bad song, but he wanted me to play that,

so shout out to Mark Weisblatt. So Bruce. Thanks for dating me, Mark. Appreciate that, man. When did Lava Life come to life? Lava Life. Lava Life, sorry. Lava, Lava, what do you prefer?

Lava, Lava, it doesn't matter. It was late 80s, so well before the internet. And our first products were called telepersonals and in Quebec, Telerendezvous. And it was, I would argue that it was the first social network in the world. But it was done over phone lines. Right. Sending messages back and forth, which, you know, positioned as well. These are touch tone phone services that were kind of the big emerging thing.

Think about voicemail before voicemail, you know, same technology, phone lines running into the back of computer systems and we're putting people together, you know? Wow. So, so what, you, you came up with this idea with some partners? Like where does this level of idea? Well, it was interesting. So first rule of entrepreneurship is you got to decide to be one. And once you've made that decision, you know, a friend of mine has an expression. He says, look, if you hang around the hoop long enough, you might catch a ball.

So we were in the game. This was a new technology. We were using it for a whole pile of different things. And through experimentation, and really the first time that you could actually measure people's quote-unquote behavior online, because you could see what they were doing when they pushed one instead of three, we realized that people were more interested in meeting each other than they were in information hotlines or horoscope lines or any of the other applications that we're using or trying to leverage that technology. The killer app turned out to be voicemail.

And I would say a close second, not a close second, but a second popular app was using this to put people together and connect them, send messages, pick up messages from voicemails, the whole sort of dawn of online personals, which we, which of course is so commonplace today. So, so almost right on the bleeding edge, except this thing, this thing took off, right? Like you, you, people were using this service. This was popular. That really was, you know, and it, and it, and it showed itself to us, you know, we put it out there and people were lined up to use it, which was sort of the beginning of, um, realizing

that, you know, we've all got this innate desire to be connected. And you're right back to the first thing you asked me, how am I doing in these times? Right. Cause we're in a, we're in a very isolating time and I'm predicting people will come back together. They will go back to the office. They will do the things we used to do because they want to be connected. And we caught on to that early. Yeah. Did you ever use the use law of life yourself?

Of course. You had to, man. Yeah, I wasn't one of my partners. Yeah. One of my partners was a dating machine. Like this guy was like he was out. I'd say sometimes two or three dates a day, you know, and he'd come back and run back to the office. So ahead of his time.

Like that's a, that's a, what do you call it? A Tinder type behavior. We call that. That's right. You need, you need a, you need a, that's rule number two of entrepreneurship. You need a subject matter expert. Well, you got to eat your own dog food. Exactly. It's another way two of entrepreneurship. You need a subject matter expert. Well, you got to eat your own dog food, right?

Exactly. It's another way of saying it. This guy was motivated, you know, and he was really the guy that developed the product based on what his dates were telling him. Wow. Okay, well, yeah, that's one way to know, like, do the QA. You got to, you know, quality assurance. You got to use the service here.

So, you know, touch-tone You got to use the service here. So, you know, touchtone phone services, you mentioned telepersonals, like we're going back to like 87, let's say, and you start Lava Life. So like, as it grows and stuff, like, so do you have any, any like stories? This is, you mentioned being around the hoop. You're going to catch one, one day or whatever.

So you, is it fair to say you try a bunch of stuff and this one was the first one that, you know, showed promise to really pay off? Exactly. You know, and I was sort of mid-20s at that time and had tried a number of things before that that had, you know, moderate levels of success. And this was one that kind of took off. And, you know, I wasn't too particular. I didn't have this vision of, oh, I want to be in the dating leading to marriage business and, you know, have this vision of people walking arm in arm and save the world by community. Like, it was just like, nope, these are people trying to get laid. And I can provide that service, you know. And if they happen to get together after that and live happily ever after, then that's great.

You're connecting consensual adults. A hundred percent. Especially in 87, that was like your partner knows best. That was a needed service. It was far enough down Maslow's hierarchy of needs that we didn't have to wonder whether people wanted to get together, you know? Wow, wow, wow. Okay, so at what point?

So 87, you co-founded and then you sell it in 2004. Yep. 15 year overnight success story. Yeah. I was going to ask you like, how long did it take before you realized, oh, like this is something, this could be big. Right away. Right away. Yeah. Because it was digital, right? And we, we introduced the connected, you know, let's get connected service on a Friday night, came introduced the connected, you know, let's get connected service on a Friday night, came in Monday morning, hit print on the DOS computer printout and saw where all the traffic was. So we said, Holy shit, you know,

people really want to get together and we have a business here. Let's go. And we were opportunistic enough to put the pedal down and sort of led the world for a time out of Toronto, sort of four guys without a ton of formal business education between them. And we put the pedal down and grew it. So it's you, it's Nick Payne. That's right. David, Dave Shemandi.

I was going to say Chimandi and I knew that would be wrong. Chimandi and Ed Lum that would be wrong and Ed Lum and Ed Lum who was the who was the serial dating dude I was going to ask you if you would out

the serial dating dude Eddie oh yeah he's proud of it you know he was key to the business right so shout out to Ed

you know what dollar amount did you eventually sell Lava Life for 182 million you know Wiki's got it wrong. Well, maybe because it's U.S. dollars.

U.S. dollars. Right. What does Wiki say? $152.5 million U.S. dollars. Yeah. Maybe today's U.S. dollars. I don't know. I mean, well, they're wrong.

But, you know, no big deal. Okay, so. $182. That's, there's a four of you? It was a public company. Public company bought it, right? Right. So that's why. That's why it's no secret, you know? Right, right, right, there's a, it was a public company, public company bought it. Right. So that's why, that's why it's a, it's no secret, you know?

Right, right, right, right, right, right. So what, what happens when you have that, like, just, I'm, I'm an entrepreneur myself, Bruce, you know, I'm starting TMDS. I produce people's podcasts. I have my own podcast, you know, but I'm, you had this thing, you know, revenue of about a hundred million dollars. I'm sorry. Yeah. A hundred million with like 2 million users.

Like, what do you do when you have that big payday? Like, what incents you to keep going? Well, first thing you do is you say thank you, right? And express gratitude. And, you know, we had 600 employees at the height. Every one of them ended up with a check from that sale. They all shared in the success. So I remember the day that I got up and told everybody that we had in fact sold the company

and it was a bittersweet day because it's kind of your baby. But I was incredibly grateful to the culture and the people that we'd assembled. And so I said, thank you very much. And then I took some time and just sort of reflected on what had been. I actually stayed on for two and a half years after that as CEO, which was the longest two and a half years of my life.

Why is that? Well, because I'm an entrepreneur and I was, you know, trying to, I was, you know, to um i was you know now working for a u.s public company that i didn't think was doing the right thing with the asset um and it was a struggle right it was a struggle to make good on all of the great promises that we'd made when the company was sold and i felt it every day didn't have to be there but i told the guy that i would um and i stuck it out for two and a half years and then kind of moved on. And to be honest with you, if you asked me how many users Lava Life had today or what's gone on, I couldn't really tell you.

I've lost track. I can imagine that considering Lava Life is, let's call it your baby, right? It's your baby. And then now you're still CEO, but it's no longer your baby. You're not calling all the shots or whatever. I would imagine, because I've seen this, and I won't name names, but I've seen this at another company here where the person stays on, but has sold the company, no longer owns it, but stays on.

And two and a half years sounds like a long time, actually. Well, for an entrepreneur, it's a lifetime, right? Right. It's a very long time. Okay. So what do you do when you leave Lava Life? Well, it's funny. The person that I'd made the commitment to, the buyer or the CEO of the public company,

we remain friends to this day. So I shook his hand when I went in and said I'd stick around for three years. At two and a half years, I poked my head up and say, I think we'd both be best served if somebody else came along. And he agreed, and we shook hands, and he said, thanks for honoring your commitment. I really appreciate it. And I said, you're welcome.

Good luck. So off I went. And it didn't take me long to realize that, you know, I had two young kids at the time. So I wasn't going anywhere. I wasn't going to Costa Rica to live or Fiji. So I said, listen, you know, if I'm going to be hanging around, I might as well do what I enjoy, which is helping to turn small ideas and companies into medium-sized ideas and companies. That's so exciting, right?

Yeah. Especially when you find one that's grooving and it's like you ride that wave. Gives me my juice, man. We've got 18 of them right now that we've invested in and we, you know, we urge them along. Here, let's, you know, do this and all that work that didn't. And I get, you know, I get a full suite of it every day. And that 18, that's with round 13. And tell us, I know this story, but briefly tell us the origin of that name, round 13,

because I love the origin. Sure. Yeah. I'm a boxing fan. Always have been. I'm a huge, huge fan of Muhammad Ali, not just for the fact that, you know, he was arguably the best boxer of all time, but, you know, in an age where it's so, you know, rare today to see sports figures actually willing to stand up and risk their brand for something they believe in. And if you recall, you know, the story, if people don't know, it was the Vietnam War. And he stood up and said, I've got no argument with the Viet Cong.

I ain't going. At a time when the government was sending every poor minority over there that didn't have a choice. And he said, fuck that. And he went to jail for it at the height of his career. So, I mean, I don't have any examples before or since that are that rooted in principle and risk to personal fortune when you're in a position like he was. Maybe Kaepernick, you know, I mean, would be the modern day example. Sure, yeah, sure. So in any case, their 1975 thrill in Manila,

Fraser Alley for boxing fans, the 13th round of that fight, many feel was the most brutal round in the history of the sport. And they beat each other up so badly that by the start of the 15th, neither could get up Ali got up and by getting up he won the fight so we've spun that into a little bit of a story that says look you know if you're going to compete in digital media or you want to grow your own company or you want us to back you you're going to get knocked down we want to back people that know how to get up when they've taken it between the eyes you know oh no awesome i love it i love i love that story now round 13 capital we'll get back to it but here here's another jam because there's another topic we

need to tackle here so can you name that tune? Well, I know what show it back, and that was the one I was on, man. So I never did know what the show, what the... You know, it's a good question. I don't know. It sounds like bands I know, but it sounds like it's like a sound alike, like a Kirkland brand. You think, oh, so you think it was a knock?

CBC doesn't want to pay the royalty. Is that what was going on? Yeah, I don't know. I got to find out. But of course, and I made sure I pulled the theme from one of your seasons here. But let me give credit to, who do I give credit to? A lot of people wanted me to ask you about this as if I wasn't going to ask you about this. But James Patterson says, when I told him that Bruce Croxon was coming over, he said, that's huge.

I'd like to know what it was like being on Dragon's Den. Hashtag real talk. We do a lot of real talk here. How did you get the gig on CBC's Dragon's Den? Well, you know, it's funny. I got the gig because I think because Lava Life was such a household name, you know, and when we sold it, it was like, who are these four guys behind this thing? And we were front page of the

Globe and Mail. And we'd stayed pretty low key up until then and, you know, let the brand do the talking, which was part of the strategy. And then all of a sudden it wasn't just the brand, it was, you know, who's behind it. And with that exposure, I think they got interested and said, you know, would you like to come onto this side of the mic? And I said, not know, would you like to come on to this side of the mic? And I said, not really. Because you're an introvert. And then they asked again. And I started to think about, you know, the next move of my career, which was to launch Round 13.

Right. And I didn't realize it at the time fully how popular this show was. I kind of knew. I hadn't seen it once before time fully how popular this show was. I kind of knew. I hadn't seen it once before I went on the show. Interesting. And I haven't watched it once since. But I've learned that I'm in a minority there. So as it turned out, the show was a very good way to tell Canadian technology entrepreneurs

that I was moving into the business of writing them checks. If they, if they showed up, it's excellent exposure. It was national TV every week. And you're right. It's a, it's a popular show. Like,

and it's now it's streaming on Netflix. I want to say, I think I've got that right. I know sometimes I see my wife is watching it and I think she's streaming it on Netflix, but Dragon's Den. And I know it's, it's,

it's, it's not from Canada. Like it's a, it's one of those shows like when you have Canadian Idol and it's based on like another country's version. Yeah, it's a property that was owned and originated by Sony. And I believe the first launch was in the UK. And how this business works is I guess you license ideas.

And Mark Burnett, even in the States, licensed the idea, but changed the name to Shark Tank. But everywhere else in the world, they kept the name the same. And Canada was early, but it definitely wasn't the first. But yeah, very popular. So what years are we talking about that we would see Bruce on? I don't know. You tell me. It was three years.

It was three years, four years ago. I'm going to say maybe 2010 to 2013. There you go. It sounds about right. Okay, we'll go with that. Sammy Cohn, who, by the way, is the drummer for The Watchmen. Do you remember The Watchmen? I do, yeah.

Great band. Love those guys. But Sammy wants to know, what percentage of the deals go through after off-camera due diligence? Okay. So it's different for all of the dragons. Um, but I would say if you forced me into an average, it would be somewhere between 10 and 15%, which I would also say is a relatively large percentage, uh, of versus real life, right?

Because I get approached a thousand times or a hundred times to close one or two, right? So I think with the added exposure and benefit of television, because when CBC gets a piece of content, they run it over and over and over again, it made it easier to close deals. So I think I held up my hand or shook hands 60 times in three years and closed 12, which was a relatively high percentage. There's a second part to Sammy's question. What are the main reasons deals fall apart during this time and why? All the reasons you would imagine they fall apart in real life. You start to look into the deal

and it wasn't as the entrepreneur presented it. You found some things that they hadn't talked about. The competition was bigger than they presented. There was, you know, the margins weren't as strong as we thought. The market wasn't big enough. So some of it's from our side. Some of it is from their side. They came on, they had really didn't have an intention of closing a deal. They wanted the exposure that comes with side. They came on. They really didn't have an intention of closing a deal. They wanted the exposure that comes with television. They didn't really want a partner.

And then, you know, everything in between, right? I mean, all the reasons deals don't get to the finish line. Is it true, like, if you go on that show and nobody invests in your company, that there's still some kind of, there's still some share that, there's still some share that goes to the makers of the show or something? No, in the States, that is the case.

Oh, that's the States rule. Yeah, I think Mark Burnett, the deal he did with the guys and ladies is, look, if you invest in a deal, I get a chunk because I'm the guy footing the bill and putting you on TV. I don't know any other country that does it that way. And Canada certainly didn't.

It was all our money and it was all of our, our proceeds as well. Awesome. Now you mentioned you made several investments. One of them I want to ask you about is Balzac's coffee. I mean, that's a, that's a big brand.

I mean, at my wedding, that was, we had, it was in the distillery district. So we had their coffee. At the cafe. You were right. Yeah. They brought it over to the Art of Gallery

where we were getting married. It was amazing. What can you tell me about... Paul Zaks? Yeah. Deanna Olson is the founder. She came on the show with four cafes, or five cafes at the time,

wanted to expand to seven. The banks would not back her because she didn't have enough equity and profit in the five. She came on, did a great pitch. I like coffee. Me too, man. And she said, and it was a hotly contested deal. Everybody wanted to do it. And my office was in the distillery at the time. So she'd seen me walking around she knew i was a customer she thought i was a good fit with the brand and out of the five people that bid on it she chose arlene and i and arlene and i became her partner and as these things go i was invested in

balls axe from cafe 7 till i believe she's at 17 now. Wow. She hadn't been in any grocery stores or supermarkets. She's in all of them now in Ontario of note. You can get the product anywhere. Her online has exploded. And about a year and a half ago, I turned to Arlene who has a food fund. And so she's in the business of backing non-tech ideas like this,

and said, hey, you know what? This would be a good fit with your fund. I've had a great return. What do you say that I sell my shares to you? And I'll never forget, it was up at that Cremor annual food picnic, and we'd just run into each other. We sat down, and she said, yeah, it's a good idea. And she said, well, how much were you thinking?

And I gave her the number and she said, how about this? And I said, how about that? And she said, how about this? And it took about six minutes. We shook hands and that was it. And the deal was done. So, you know, as an investor, we're not building companies to pass down to our kids, right? It's like you invest here, you help them grow,

and then at some point you like to exit them. And that one worked out perfectly. Wow. So what was it like? It sounds like it was positive, but working with Arlene. I think she came back for sure. I don't know the current roster, I have to confess, but I know that she came back recently.

But what was it like working with Arlene? It was great. She is an authentic person that does what she says, and the real treat in that deal was working with Deanna Olson, the entrepreneur, though, because she built the brand and really did an exceptional job um growing that business and i'll tell you what man like dating is one thing we all we all you know maslow's hierarchy of needs again like dating we want to be with someone right but we also you know don't

get in the way of someone that is a daily coffee drinker and their first cup of coffee in the morning. Like, we're addicts, you know. So, 83% of us, I think, drink 1.8 cups a day. So, that coffee business is like something else, you know. You're our pusher. We are pushers. It's legal dope is what it is. I'll say I love the ritual of it all.

I have a French press I make, and I just love the whole ritual of my morning coffee. Yeah, me too. It's a big part and cool stuff. Now, here, let me check my notes here because I have a question from Brother Neil. And Brother Neil, I'll ask Brother Neil, and then I'm going to go backwards, actually.

But Brother Neil wants me to ask you can you ask Bruce if he would ever come back to the den? Did he leave on good terms with the show? So yeah please let's answer Brother Neil's question. You'd have to ask them but I under as far as I'm concerned I left

on excellent terms. Three years was a very appropriate length of time. And no, I would never go back. It was, you know, it does wreck a little bit of havoc with your life. I never did get comfortable with walking through an airport, you know, interacting with people. And people recognize you. A hundred percent. And I, you know, my memory is shaky at the best of time. And I was always wondering, do I know you or don't I know you?

And I never did get... Welcome to my world. Really? I never did get 100% comfortable. So, no, I mean, I wouldn't go backwards. I do a spot on BNN now that is very tech-focused. And it keeps me prepared and into the world of technology, which is what I owe my investors to be doing because I,

you know, I've got other people's money that I manage as well. So no, the Dragon's Den was a point in time that served its purpose. I loved it. Right. The time I was on. So no regrets.

No, zero, zero, zero regrets. It was fantastic. Yeah. And okay. That's good to hear. Now, when they were, when they chose you, because like you said, L. It was fantastic, yeah. And, okay, that's good to hear.

Now, when they chose you, because like you said, Lava Life was a huge Canadian success story, so it's natural we need one of the founders, but why you and why not Nick or David or Ed? Yeah, well, Ed, definitely, that's an easy answer. He's like, I'm an introvert, he's an extreme introvert, the dating machine. Like he, you know, he wouldn't, he doesn't,

you can't get him into a conversation about what he's accomplished. You know, he's very understated. And the other guys had sort of drifted away from the business a little bit. You know, I was kind of the face of it at the end. I was running it. So, you know, I was next up. You have the face for television. That's what we're hearing here.

I don't know. I just went down and, you know, when they ask you, it's not like they're handing it to you. You line up beside 17 other people that they've asked and they say, well, okay, do you think this guy's going to fit? And I guess I didn't care enough either way that that came through, right? I think that was part of it. That's the attitude they were looking for.

Maybe. The guy who doesn't want, you know, if you want it too badly, it's a bad look. Comes through. And I think that's what they said, actually. Well, I've had, so 75% of the Canadian Idol judges I've had over, and they talked about the audition process. So, like, you're basically, you audition for the gig.

That's right. It's a television role, and you're auditioning. So, yeah, here's Bruce Croxon. Let's make sure this guy can string a sentence together and looks good on the camera. That's right. And all that important stuff here uh one more investment i just want to ask you about uh from your time at uh the dragon's den is custom tattoo design so tell me a little to tell us briefly that story before yeah well that's a that's a business where uh this guy came on and he was kind of rock and roll. And he said, listen, I've, you know, a lot of people, tattoos are on the rise.

Everyone wanted a tattoo. And, you know, not everyone was comfortable walking into what, at that time anyway, the stigma around tattoo parlors was kind of underground, sort of shady, second floor of a mall. And it was like, you know, why don't you, why don't you allow us to design your tattoo? See if you like what it looks like before you embark on the journey. So this guy assembled, you know, 80 artists around the world working virtually, which is now God, you know, which is now the way to do it. But he was ahead of his time and said, listen, you know, tell us what you want. We'll draw it and we'll charge you for that and pay the artist.

And there you go. So it was really, and he's expanded it into doing designs and brands and logos and that kind of thing. And he's still, Custom Tattoo is still in our family of investments. It's actually in the round 13 family. Okay, wow. That's cool. Do you have a tattoo? I do.

I did it for the show. Actually, I had,, I had one before. I did a motorcycle trip through Vietnam and found an artist that tattooed by hand and, you know, I don't know, got carried away in the moment and did something. But for that, you know, I mean, I was so committed to the business. They said, well, why don't you throw a little dragon on you, right? Right. And I said, all right, I'll do that. And Jim, will you do that?

Because he was my partner on the deal for a living, the guy that started Boston Pizza. Jim, come on, let's go get tattoos. So he goes, okay, let's go get tattoos. And we show up, and you go first, Bruce. And so I sat down, and the artist, they gave me their best artist, great shop, I can't remember the name of it, and he goes, you know what, Bruce,

I'll do a little dragon, but it'd be really better, and I'd be a much better showcase for what I do if I could make a bigger dragon, right? So how big are you talking? And he said, well, just a bit bigger. I said, so I'll trust you, go ahead. So the guy, I end up with a dragon that covers like, you know, a third of my back. Right. And I said, okay. And so I'm,

I'm walking around and I didn't tell my family that this is, that I was doing this. Right. So I actually wear a t-shirt to bed at night and I actually kept it from my family for about six weeks. So I'm taking my shirt off one morning and my daughter who was like eight at the time or something she walks in and she busts me right and said what she screams this big fucking dragon on your back and my son comes in he starts crying you know and then it was like shit hit the fan at my home and blah blah blah and you know long story short old jim trilliving you know but when it came time to do his dragon, he had, of course, changed his mind because he'd seen me going through all this stuff. So the cameras captured all that, and, you know, we got the dragon on the back.

And it doesn't bother me in the least because I don't think I've ever seen it. It's on my back. Yeah, you don't see it, right? I don't see it. It doesn't bother me at all, right? Right, right. My family hates it. That's a great story.

Wow. So what was it like working with Jim? Fantastic. You know, I mean, we, so if you go across the line, right, there was O'Leary, Arlene, my first year, a guy named Robert Herjavec. Oh, yeah. He's got the Ferrari. That's right.

The car guy who's on Shark Tank and, you know, built a nice business. With Mr. Wonderful. That's right, with O'Leary. And David Chilton, the wealthy barber, right? Who, by the way, Mike, would be great, right? Well, I'm now collecting the dragons. Right, so go get him because he's smart, he's funny, he'll have the audience laughing,

and he's just an overall great guy. You had me at hello. Okay, so Jimmy, you asked about Jim. You asked have the audience laughing, and he's just an overall great guy. You had me at hello. Okay. So Jimmy, you asked about Jim. You asked about Jim. Yes, yes. You know, so we all have our stories up there, right? And we've all had different levels of success.

And Jim is the real deal out of all of us, right? RCMP cop, you know, grade, I don't know, 10 or 11 education, finds this pizza joint in Penticton, says, I like pizza. I like this guy. You know, they called it in his small hometown. They called it Pisa. You know, didn't even know what pizza was. And he went home and said, you know, Dad, I want to quit the RCMP and get into the pizza business.

His dad said, are you crazy? You know, you're giving up your pension and this and that. And Jim said, no, that's what I really want to do. Put his head down and built a billion dollar business. So, you know, I don't think Canadian entrepreneurism, when you look at stories, right, I don't think it gets any more inspiring than that to me. And Jim became and is still a very good friend of mine. You know, and, you know, Boston pizza is going through a bit of a challenge now is you know like the restaurant industry but you know you call him up and talk he's got the same

cheerful disposition and you know living the great life and doing what's right you know yeah i'm always uh impressed with the success of that chain considering i don't think boston is known for its pizza like that doesn't seem to be a match. You can build a brand out of anything. Bullshit baffles brains. But they back it up with a good product. You can have good food and good service. And I think when Montreal was in the cup, they crossed out Boston and put Montreal pizza.

So he's had some fun with it too. Yeah, for sure. When the Leafs were playing the Bruins. That's right. Was that what it was? Yeah, and they said they weren't going to call out Boston Pizza during that period. But that's fantastic. Now, I'm going to take a quick pause here because we're in October.

You know, you've got kids, even though 17 is a little old, but you're never too old for Halloween. But as you know, Halloween is going to look awfully different this year because I don't even know what we're going to do. What are we going to do? My wife has listened to me pontificate on this topic. And I've thought that kids should still get dressed up, put on a mask, socially distance.

And I think instead of, nobody wants to answer the door during a pandemic. So let's take that away. But I think people can creatively get the candy to the kid without opening the door. Maybe I said, hey, you just put a bowl there and every, like an honor system. We're taking Urban Eats, right? I mean, we're taking delivery of stuff.

So why not? So, right. So yes, I understand people won't want to open their door during a pandemic. That might not be a good idea, but you can still get the candy to the kids. Cause this is, you know, I got a four-year-old and a six-year-old. This is bigger than Christmas, to be honest. In fact, I had to mow the lawn today because all the halloween stuff is going in the lawn today and the four-year-old it's so excited it's unbelievable and the six-year-old

so uh i don't know some people i saw had creative ways to get the candy through like a shoot system i don't know if everybody will have something like that but even if the bowl's on the porch and you got the jack-o'-lantern lit and the kids come up, you know, group at a time safely and grab a candy, like just skip the trick-or-treat of the door part. What do you think? You know, well, I think parents are used to, I remember these days, like, you know, back to your food allergy question, right? We went through everything with a fine-tooth comb. And I think parents do that anyway. So while you're going through it with a fine tooth comb, wipe the stuff down,

right? I mean, sanitize the packaging and I think we're good to go. And like you said, Uber Eats, as far as, and I listened to Brian Goldman on this topic, Dr. Brian Goldman, that he really, as we've advanced in this pandemic, it's becoming very evident that this is transferring through the water droplets, like, you know, close conversation, you know, exposure to somebody speaking or coughing or sneezing at you. It, that whole, like at the beginning, my wife would, you know, wipe down all the groceries. We haven't done that in months now because it's simply not enough virus load on the contact. So the whole getting the KitKat to the kid, uh, will, that's not going to transmit anything. Just maybe don't answer the door, but I, there is a way for parents and grandparents to

create a halloween event for the kids i agree let's do it well let's do it let's do it at pumpkins after dark so uh pumpkins after dark if you're unaware you need to educate yourself at pumpkinsafterdark.com it's a it's a it's a huge uh park uh in milton ontario and they have sculpt thousands of sculptures illuminating the night sky and they have tunnels. So it's this huge drive-through event. So it's super COVID-19 safe. And if you go to pumpkinsafterdark.com

to pick your time slot and get your tickets, which you really need to do right now because it's going to sell out, you can save 10% right now with the promo code MIKED. M-I-K-E-D. So pumpkinsafterdark.com.

Get your car load. For listeners, I heard from Elvis yesterday. He bought his tickets for his family. They're going to make the drive from Oshawa to Milton, and that's fantastic. So shout out to pumpkinsafterdark.com. Great Lakes Brewery. I've got beer.

You can take that beer home with you, Bruce. It's all yours. Thank you. Don't give it to the kids on Halloween. Don't do that. No, maybe the parents. I don't know. I didn't say that. I don't want to get myself in trouble. But I would say that would be okay.

But thank you to CDN Technologies. I want to thank CDN Technologies. They're your outsourced IT department. You can contact Barb at CDN Technologies. Just have a conversation with her. You can write her at barb at cdntechnologies.com. I put a sticker on the Palma Pasta box, a Toronto Mike sticker. That's yours, Bruce.

Thank you, buddy. Created by stickeru.com. They're at Liberty Village. You mentioned the tattoos. I was thinking, well, just go get the, you upload the image at stickeru.com they're at liberty village yep they you can create because you mentioned the tattoos i was thinking well just go get the you you upload the image at sticker you.com and they can send you uh temporary tattoos custom custom tattoo.ca or.com whatever yeah let's uh go design something and send it over to sticker you sticker you.com and uh when uh when covid disappears and guests come back to my basement studio,

you'll see the great decals I have on the wall that they put together. And last but not least, I want to thank the Keitner Group. They love helping buyers find their dream home. And if you would like to converse with the wonderful Austin Keitner, who's been a fantastic supporter of this show for the past year, write me an email and I'll introduce you to Austin and have a little conversation with Austin, especially if you're looking to buy and or sell GTA real estate in the next six months.

Have a conversation. Just hear what Austin has to say. And yeah, so the beer is yours. Thank you, Palma Pasta. You got your sticker. So it was worth the drive. Is that fair to say? Worth the drive to Etobicoke.

Love it out here. It's turning into a really nice day. Gorgeous. Like, I asked you earlier via Twitter if you wanted me to take the outdoor heater. I have an outdoor backyard heater I can set up. And you said, no, you're Canadian. And then I thought, okay, he's going well. But now I realize we'd be melting.

No, it's a great day, great porch, great weather, great interview. So far, so good? So far, so good. So time for the real talk. Okay, so who will I pick on here? Let's talk about Mark E. David. Mark E. David says, as a viewer of Dragon's Den and The Disruptors,

oh, in a nutshell, tell us about The Disruptor on BNN before I ask. Yeah, so I wanted to keep the Round 13 brand alive, but I wanted to focus more on tech, so I went to BNN with a friend of mine and said, hey, you know, why don't we do a half-hour show where we highlight the best Canadian tech companies? They can pitch to us kind of Dragon's Den style. We can critique them,

and we can also cover the tech news of the week, and we ran that with my co-host was Amber Kanwar from BNN. We ran that for, I think, three years. Amber went on maternity leave, and I've evolved into just showing up once a week and talking about the world of technology with John Ehrlichman on The Open. And that's Wednesday morning at 10.40 approximately.

We shoot The Breeze for about seven or eight minutes. And that is the evolution of the disruptors. Cool, cool. So Marky David says, as a viewer of Dragon's Den and the disruptors, I'd like to know what, in your opinion, Bruce, makes an ideal pitch. What gets you interested in a company? Oh, man. Well, you know, we saw 240 business pitches

in 20 days while we were filming the dragon's den of about 40 minutes each right and the thing that i came away from that experience with is you have to be solving a real problem right i mean so many of the pitches were trying to convince us there was a human need for something. And then if they got us there, the last 10 minutes of the 40 was, well, here's my product. So you have to start with a human need because the bigger the problem you're solving, the less you're going to have to spend to market it. And I don't come across too many businesses that can't be broken down with how much does it cost you to get a customer and how much is that customer worth. And if you're really solving a real problem, that equation becomes a lot easier, right, and a lot more attractive.

Here's another toughie here from Barrett. Barrett Real Estate is the full name here. I hope that's not a conflict with the Great Kite Knit Group here. But ask him what he'd do if he was five years away from retirement with the current government. He says mattress or bonds. What would you be investing in today? Well, if I needed something to really happen in the next five years to have a successful retirement, I'd play it differently than if I was set and I was just trying to preserve my capital.

So if I was set and I was comfortable heading into retirement, then you might as well put it in the mattress because I think everything's inflated right now and there's no, there's no yield in, in, uh, in, uh,

treasuries or putting the money in the bank. If I had to, if I, if I needed something to happen, my belief is that in the next 12 months, stuff that has been in, in some people's view, overvalued, are going to, there's going to be adjustments coming, right? And I'll go everywhere from Toronto condos

to publicly traded technology stocks, to publicly traded technology stocks, to publicly traded equities, to private investments in real estate, there's going to be an adjustment because we just can't continue with this level of unemployment and businesses struggling without there being an adjustment to value. So I would stay put with your capital for now, but start tuning in to adjustments, things that were valued at X that now are going to be valued at Y and be willing to take a little bit of a chance

that we're going to rebound on some of those categories. But it is risky, right? So again, if you're set and you've got enough, hold on to it, preserve it. If you need to make something happen, start paying attention to some categories that you get to know a little bit better than you might know them today. Well, I guess if it wasn't risky, we'd all be rich. This is it, right?

And if we're all rich, I guess none of us are rich. Is that how it works? You know, that's a very interesting statement. I believe with all the money that the government's put out there over the last year and a half, I think that we are getting ready for universal basic income. And I'm a big, big proponent of it. I think, you know, why not? We spend enough money as a government.

I haven't run the math, but we've got to be getting close, that everybody should be able to get $30 30 grand a year to do what they want. And if you want to work and, you know, if you're motivated by being wealthy, get at her. If you want to stay in Toronto. If you're motivated by being an artist, you know, or fulfilling other life dreams that are not so commercially oriented, you should have the right to do that too. You know, some of my favorite guests, beyond yourself, who you're a fantastic guest by the way, you're now an FOTM. That means Friend of Toronto Mike.

You can get another tattoo maybe. Beautiful. That says that. But I enjoy talking to Canadian musicians, like a lot of the bands and musicians that I loved in the 90s, for example.

And I have a lot of them on. And to a T, they all tell this story about how they were, you know, they all lived in some place, I don't know, Queen and Spadina for $400 a month. And basically that allowed them to work on their music.

Doing what they loved, right? And I mean, look, 2020, I don't know what the, I mean, the one bedroom average price in Toronto, I don't know, it's probably close to $2,000 or something. Like I often, because I got an 18 year old, I got a 16 year old and I often wonder like, okay, where, where do they end up living? Like, are they renting a basement apartment with five friends? Like what is, it's just interesting to me that I don't know where an artist, like, cause we don't compensate our artists very well. And the challenge is that artists and urban have gone hand in hand, you know, as we've grown up, right? I mean, you need an audience for your art and you need inspiration for your art. And a lot of that comes from grit and downtown and stuff like that.

And you're right. It's going to be tough. Like, I mean, where does that come from? Because, you know, unless you're willing to, you know, live with 18 other people, Toronto's getting to be a challenge so yeah hence like let's move forward on universal basic income because the arts and culture are critical to everything that we hold dear about living in toronto and large urban centers and we got to support it we got to find a way. And on that note, affordable housing.

Like I know I just recently watched this. It's actually like a media sneak peek at this doc that's coming to CBC. It's about the Honest Eds, the Mirvish development on the Honest Eds and about, you know, the people who are kind of living there and now in the new development. And, you know, these are pricey condos and rentals, except they have this, they're incented to make X number, they call it affordable housing or whatever. And there's some algorithm you take the average price and it has to be 80% of

that or whatever. Uh, but even, you know, to be honest, even the affordable units are actually pretty expensive, but it is a Bathurst and Bloor, but that, so I guess that all, I guess, I guess i wonder like like because because for a long time my friend ralph ben murigy was telling me he he didn't want to pay toronto prices and ralph ended up in hamilton with his family but i was reading this thing the other day hamilton prices have gone way up like you can't afford hamilton anymore i mean switching hats uh hamilton real estate real estate has probably been the best investment.

Like Ralph's happy. Good on Ralph, you know? Oh, I'm sure he did wait quite well. I don't know where we all end up. Well, then is there a community in Hamilton as the urban aspect of Hamilton grows that provides inspiration to artists? And you hop on the train because transportation's got better and you find the bigger audience in Toronto. And does that become the new way, you know can you and you hop on the train and because transportation's got better and you find the bigger audience in toronto and does that become the new way you know yeah just interesting how we how we yeah i like so i like i like you being a proponent of this universal

income and yeah it just we gotta figure it out i don't i don't want my city where i was born and raised and still live and raising my family of six here i'm not raising my wife but raising my four kids. I don't want this to be like a city for, you know, multi-millionaires. So listen, let's say it a different way too, right? Because, you know, the gap between people that are wealthy and the have-nots has never been wider and it's growing. That is not good for anybody, you know. Don't need to talk about how it's not good for

people that don't have it for people that have it it's not good man who wants to live in a you know create a society where everyone's behind a wall and there's civil unrest because of the gap and we see how it works in third world countries does anyone want to live like that no we got to in america too you've got to redistribute and we've got to promote arts and and our job as parents you know the the the the realization that i've had you know having kids is our job our main job is to find out what they love to do and promote their ability to do it and it doesn't have to be about making bread you you know, making dough. Right. You got to put food on the table. But that, like, the pursuit of that in and of itself.

But it's interesting to hear you say that. Who cares? Because you're in the business of making money. I love the journey of helping entrepreneurs turn small companies into medium-sized companies, right? And, yes, have I been compensated for that? I have, you know, but it's actually is a perfect lineup with what I love to do. It's not for everybody, you know,

and I am more than happy to be taxed on my gains and support universal basic income and, you know, create places in Toronto where artists can thrive and give back. It just doesn't have to be everybody's trip. Love it, man. Love it. I see Philip Parkinson has a question here. Back to the cash.

I will be honest with you. This is not a topic I have a lot of love or comfort with, actually. BNN, I was thinking, I didn't know about your BNN show. I realized, oh, I've never actually laid eyes on BNN. I have friends who have worked there and stuff. Actually, it's just the way, I didn't know about your BNN show. And I realized, oh, I've never actually laid eyes on BNN. Like I have friends who've worked there and stuff, but actually it's just, I just, the way, I don't know. It's just my- It's not your interest.

It's not something I- BNN's audience isn't massive, you know? Like it is a very niche. It's a Bay Street kind of audience. You got your niche, but it's a, you know, I'm sure they do quite well because I bet you that's a wealthy niche. Yeah, but part of the reason they did the Disruptors

because they wanted to appeal to millennials that were coming up through the tech ecosystems and trying to do their own thing and inspire them to start their own businesses. I thought it was a pretty forward move by BNN. Absolutely. Get this handsome introvert back on the television, right? Sure.

So Philip Parkinson says, what is his view, that's you Bruce, what is his view of the VC landscape in Ontario and Canada? How can it be improved? Is round 13 getting back into funding again with COVID becoming a part of our lives? Round 13 had its busiest investment period of its five, six year history in the three months, March june of this year so this was a time that people were kind of paralyzed with what are we going to do where are we going to go

and businesses needed to be funded and uh we were more active in that period than we had been ever before okay i think that would surprise people i think because so many we're just so many businesses paused or went into maintenance mode or whatever, but it sounds like you guys hit the accelerator. We put the pedal down and it's been busy ever since. Okay, so your view of the VC landscape in Ontario and Canada is? I think it's healthy and getting healthier. I mean, the government has been actually quite supportive of early-stage startups.

I think they recognize, for the most part, that small and medium-sized businesses are the lifeblood of the country and that we need them, right? Because the people that want to work need to work. Right. And I think they've been very supportive. Right. And I think they've been very supportive. So I think if you have a technology idea or an idea to and, you know, this this new area that we're moving into, of course, is a real win win, because I think we're going to see a lot of money flowing to what's called ESG, which is your environment, social and governance that is actually good for the planet. And we're into an area that we all recognize now that we've got a finite resource here. And that one of the answers may be to bring the world of technology and climate change together. Like let's start taking the carbon out of the air. Let's start, you know, providing energy in a more efficient way. This can be done while making a profit, while building companies,

while doing what's right for the world. I mean, this is like in many ways the most exciting time to be in VC, you know, venture capital for those that don't know what VC is. Right, for guys like me. Look, I need to pimp a podcast I produced for Dr. Diane Sachs. She was the last environmental commissioner of Ontario before Doug Ford eliminated that position. And I produced her podcast.

It's called Green Economy Heroes. So basically she talks to what she calls green economy heroes, which are across this country. All these entrepreneurs and business people with businesses that are both revenue generating, but also green, like good for the environment. Good for the earth. And I just want to pimp this out to you. Green economy heroes. Give it a listen. Sure will.

I think you'd absolutely, absolutely love it. Charlie Misner, I think it's Misner. M-I-S-N-E-R, Misner. I'm going with Misner. Who has had, oh, I like this question. Who's had the biggest influence on you or has been the biggest inspiration in your career, Bruce? I'm on my way to see him. So my 92-year-old dad, who at the beginning of COVID, we moved out of an assisted living place into my sister's home, who is in Etobicoke just west of here.

Good for you. I'm on the way, go out every Saturday. He showed up in Canada as an immigrant with $60 and a grade eight education. And like so many people of that generation, got to work. And so I got to grow up watching a guy get up every morning, So I got to grow up watching a guy get up every morning, put breakfast on the table, and go to work and show up every night. And he built a business and showed me what could be done. He showed me a couple things, right?

One, he showed me that nothing that you're going to do that's worthwhile is ever going to be a lay down. You've got to work at it. Whether you're an artist or a business person, you've got to be devoted to your craft. And the other thing he, he clearly illustrated was that there's a lot of different ways to get an education, right? And I'm looking at our kids and I'm looking at an education system that hasn't changed in 120 years. And I was a terrible student and, and, and, and right? Like you, there's a lot of different ways to go

get educated. And my dad is living proof, right. That you don't need a Harvard MBA to build a business. Um, what's your dad's name? Noel. N-O-E-L. Shout out to Noel Croxon, born on Christmas day 92 and sharp as a tack. Um, he's, he's, he's definitely battling some health issues right now. So yeah, dad, if you're listening, the question was who was the biggest influence? It was you. And I've learned a ton by watching you do it the way you did it. That's beautiful, man.

You see, if I were a smart podcast, I'd end on that note. That was a beautiful moment but i do have a last one last question from to resident here and then we'll let you get to your father because that that sounds wonderful man uh to resident says uh with all with almost all tech companies changing to work from home during covet 19 more than tech companies by the way but yeah uh any i guess yeah uh well my wife has worked for a software company. She's working from home, but lots of people working from home right now. Will there be fewer startups over the next one or two years? Oh, I don't think so at all. I think what this has done

is proven that ideas can be germinated anywhere. They can come out of the smallest communities now. anywhere. They can come out of the smallest communities now. It's not required to be all in one place to have something work. Having said that, I think we're all social creatures. And I think that predictions of massive change, like you're hearing, for example, the office building is dead. No one's going to come back to work. My experience has been that that change never happens to the extent that people predict it well. And I think everybody will be back together before you know it. But the question was, can ideas or do you think there's going to be a slowdown in startups? And I think, no, absolutely not. The ideas are coming fast and furious. So it sounds like you're not of the opinion that it's more difficult to, you know, collaborate without the shared office space. Like, you know, we got Zoom and we got Slack and all this.

I think it is more difficult to collaborate. But entrepreneurs, you know, one thing I've learned during this pandemic is, you know, I'm in this area for a reason. Like, people that are doing things are so resilient and Canada is the best place to build a business bar none. And I've been blown away by, um, how empathetic and driven our entrepreneurs have been, uh, in dealing with the shit that we're dealing with. So no, the ideas aren't slowing down. They're, they're increasing as the tools become more available. Collaboration is tougher for sure. And that's why I believe that we will come back to working together when we get, when we get this thing under control.

Yeah. Hopefully that's a sooner rather than later. That's my hope. You don't have a crystal ball there, do you? Not at all, man. We're all in the same boat as far as that goes. All right. I'm going to play off with my, uh, one of my favorite bands of all time, lowest of the low, but I'm naturally curious, uh, like what kind of music would you listen to? Are you a music fan? Uh, yeah, I am. Yeah. I mean, I'm not as deep as you are, but you know, I, I, I raised my kids on the, what I call the Holy Trinity. Okay. Let's hear this. I love this. Bob, Bob, Bruce and Neil, you know, know. That's a good threesome right there. I did my best to raise them the right way.

No, I mean, if you were normally, before COVID, you'd walk through my hallway into the downstairs thing and you'd pass, there's a picture of Neil Young in mine. I'm a big Neil Young guy. And Bob, of course, that's Bob Dylan, not Bob Marley. No, that's Marley. Is it Marley? I wasn't sure because, yeah, Dill, that's, okay.

I'm a big Dylan fan too, no that's Marley is it my I wasn't sure because yeah deal that's okay I'm big Dylan fan too but Bob you know my mom's my my maternal homeland is Jamaica so Bob's oh I didn't know that Bob's close to my heart man so he's uh so Bob Marley Neil Young was it was the other one again Bruce Springsteen Bruce Springsteen it's funny because I played the uh the song Bruce for you uh you weren't named after uh no you're too you're too old to be named after Bruce Springsteen. I do the math in my head. Just a fan, man, just a fan. At some point, would you return to the Backyard Studio to kick out the jams with me? I'd love that, man.

This is so enjoyable. And like I said, right on the way to see my dad. Okay, we're going to do it for sure. Let me know. Basically, the premise, and you can dive into these if you ever have time, because I think you'd dig them, but people tell me their 10 favorite songs of all time. I play them and we talk about like,

why does that song matter to you? What is it? Why does it resonate with you? Why do you love it? And it's really the best thing ever. I've done like a 80 of these things with different, uh, you know,

people and, uh, you'd, you'd love it. Just give me the word. It's going to happen. Bruce, that was awesome.

Your debut was a huge success. Thanks, Mike. Thanks for having me. And that brings us to the end of our 730th show. You can follow me on Twitter. I'm at Toronto Mike. Now Bruce is at Bruce underscore Croxon, C-R-O-X-O-N. Our friends at Great Lakes Brewery are at Great Lakes Beer.

Make sure you take that fresh craft beer home with you, Bruce. Palma Pasta is at Palma Pasta. Sticker U is at Sticker U. The Keitner Group are at The Keitner Group. CDN Technologies are at CDN Technologies. Pumpkins After Dark are at Pumpkins Dark. See you all Monday when Mark Weisblatt returns for the 1236 recap of August and September.

This podcast has been produced by TMDS and accelerated by Roam Phone. Roam Phone brings you the most reliable virtual phone service to run your business and protect your home number from unwanted calls. Visit RoamPhone.ca to get started.