Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - Cameron Hawkins from FM: Toronto Mike'd Podcast Episode 1998

Episode Date: October 20, 2026

On this 1998th episode of Toronto Mike'd, Mike chats with Cameron Hawkins about forming FM with Nash the Slash, Phasors on Stun, Just Like You, the TV Ontario special, their rotten luck with record labels, and the newly reformed FM.A version of this podcast without programmatic ads is available to all Toronto Mike'd Patrons at patreon.com/torontomike.Toronto Mike'd, an award-winning podcast, is proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, Palma Pasta, Ridley Funeral Home, Nick Ainis, and RecycleMyElectronics.ca.If you would like to support the show, we do have partner opportunities available. Please email Toronto Mike at [e-mail]. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hi, my name is Cameron Hawkins. I played with the band FM starting in 1976 and rejuvenating itself in the year 2026. We're calling it our 50-year mission and our job is to bring the joy of music from the 1970s to the 2020s. and I'm delighted to be making an appearance with Mike and to be on his air program. I think you call them podcasts. And I'm ready to take it away. So you want to be a Cameron, not a Cam. Am I hearing that right?

That's sort of how I make the difference between the music and everything else. Cameron, I can do Cameron. Welcome to episode 1,998 of Toronto Mike. An award-winning podcast, proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery. Order online at great lakes beer.com for free local home delivery in the GTA. Palma Pasta. Enjoy the taste of fresh, homemade Italian pasta and entrees from Palma Pasta. in Mississauga and Oakville.

Visit PalmaPasta.com for more. Fusion Corp's own Nick Aienies. He's the host of Building Toronto Skyline and Mike and Nick, two podcasts that you ought to listen to. Recyclemyelectronics.ca.cate, safe, secure recycling for residents, businesses, and the environment. Ready to recycle? Bring it!

And Ridley Funeral Home. Pillars of the community since 1921. Joining me today, making his Toronto mic to debut, it's Cameron. Hawkins. I don't know if I've ever met a Cameron who wanted to be called Cameron.

I'm just thinking about all the Camerons I know, and they're all like, call me Cam. But I'm delighted to call you Cameron, and it's a pleasure to finally get you on Toronto Mic. Yes, it was a long road to get here. There's no doubt about that. Well, do you remember the read, like the highlights? We met.

I'm looking over my shoulder because I got a poster there. I do. The Nash the slash documentary. Do you remember the full name of that thing? Nash the slash rises again. Rises again. So. Well, that would be something.

That would be a... He rose again many times. So we're going to, there's going to be a lot of Nash the slash chat in this conversation. It's going to be an FM deep dive. We're going to learn all. about you. But of course, at that documentary premiere, I was lucky enough to be invited. We met there for the first time. I want to give credit. You tell me if I'm wrong, Cameron. Jeff Rogers maybe introduced us? Absolutely. So how do you know Jeff Rogers? Well, Jeff Rogers,

I first met him many years ago. So that would have been around the early 80s. Was it the 1880s or the 1980s, I'm not quite sure. And Jeff was a young teenage rock and roll entrepreneur, probably eight no more than 18 years old. And he was ready to book us into a club down in the Niagara Peninsula, which was, I think, sort of the heartbeat of rock and roll music back in the previous century as far as the golden and Horseshoe goes, it was always going to be a good concert. Well, we had to cancel that concert because another band that gave really good music, Rush gave us a call and said, we'd like you to come down.

Can you be in, I think it was Syracuse? Can you be in Syracuse in three days and open up for us on our moving pictures tour of the United States? Okay, already, mind blows. So Cameron, already off the top. That's the first time we ran into Jeff is turning him down because of rush. Okay, so I'm going to interject with a quick Jeff Rogers. So Jeff Rogers has been on the program. And anybody who heard the, who am I going to think of, Jim Moore,

the Rusty episodes often talk about handsome boy. Yes. That's Jeff Rogers. Swell, handsome boy, he's got all these different branding effects or whatever. But I recently got a note from Jeff Rogers about having him come back to talk about Q107. Ah. Like there's something in the works,

and I didn't ask too many questions, because I like to act surprised when things get revealed on Toronto Mike. I don't want to, excuse me, all choked up thinking about it. I don't want to fake anything, Cameron, but like apparently there might be like a Q107,

I don't know if I'm speaking out of school here, a Q107 documentary that Jeff Rogers is behind maybe in the works. Wow. And coincidentally, Cameron, and again, it's going to get back to you and FM in a moment here. But this morning, I was at a human rights tribunal,

Jennifer Valentine versus Chorus, and the testimony was given by a gentleman named John Garbutt, who's the current, he's currently a morning show host on Q107, and he was like a technical producer for the John Derringer show back in the day. So I mean, Q107 has been on the mind all morning as I was attending this thing. So it is fascinating for me to get Jeff Rogers back to talk about Q107 and what he's up to. And also we'll talk about you, Cameron, and we'll talk about FM. Because you mentioned Rush.

And I'm going to shut up in a minute, Cameron, but you mentioned Rush. And I just remembered bumping into you in the men's room at that Neil Peart documentary premiere at Tiff. Right. So the circle has been closed. Okay. So from Nash to slash doc to Nealb. Neil Peert, Doc, and I don't like to bother people when they're standing by the urinal or whatever, but I'm like, Cameron, you promised you'd visit.

When are you going to visit the basement? And here you are. It is. So, yeah, it was, it was just like my first meeting with Jeff, and now Jeff is a close friend and mentor, and I've almost convinced him to become our manager. but he's definitely helping us out because in this century you need all the help you can get. And, I mean, you teased it on your cold open and we're obviously going to get into the details. But FM is back?

I don't want to like, I want to build a story and we can, I don't know if there'll be a big announcement later, but in 2026, FM, the progressive rock group that you formed back and you said 76, with Nash the Slash, who will talk about a great detail in mere moments. FM's back? FM has been working to play concerts again. Really for quite a long time, and there was this thing, COVID that came along. I remember. And, you know, you probably know, too, that the music business,

which was thriving in the 70s of the last century, has been through some really tough times, but the last sort of, almost the nail in the coffin, was closing down the only route left for musicians to really interact with their audience, and that was play live. And, of course, for at least three to four years, in Canada anyway, all the clubs were shut down,

concerts were shut down, very few bands could play, because nobody wanted to get anyone sick. Right. And, you know, we thought it would come back a bit stronger than it did, but we also lost a lot of clubs. Well, anyway, it's one of those now or never things. Mike, it's like if you want to do it one more time,

or maybe two or three more. Right. Well, what are you waiting for? Are there any concerts, specific dates and venues that are, You know, you've signed the contract. It's happening. Can people buy tickets now? Yes, actually.

Okay, well, shout them out now because we'll get back to it later, but we can do it now, too. The Super fans will jump on this. So it's a funny story. We go from out of COVID now, finally, and there are some clubs now that are booking acts. And we thought, okay, well, let's see. We are booked to play.

The Redwood Theater, which is around Gerard, and Greenwood in the east side of Toronto. And the tickets went on sale, I guess, around the end of August. And in two days, they were sold out. And that really took us by surprise because, you know, we went from stopped dead still to two days. Right. So we are in the process of finalizing a second gig in mid-January.

2007, which is not that far away. And that will be announced sometime this week. Okay, so is it possible by the end of our chat today? You'll be ready to make that announcement or no chance? Well, I will, here's the thing. If tickets sell out in two days, we didn't have any time to tell our friends and family and fans and whatever. So we booked another show and this time we're suggesting that everybody,

who would like to come and see us, go to the website www. the bandfm.com and register and as soon as we know the date and the time of the ticket sales will send you an email and hopefully the first few hundred people

will get tickets. Okay, this is all amazing. And I'm curious, do you think there was like a bump in FM curiosity or awareness with the noise around the national the slash rises again documentary. I just found a postcard that,

I don't know who gave this to me, Colin Brunton maybe, but... Ah, Colin. He was the producer of the film. Right. Well, definitely it had been building and it was an amazing thing

to see the long in development documentary and see the story that they wove around Nash because as much as I knew him quite well, and definitely we made some really good music together. The story of his life had never been told by anyone.

He was quite a secretive person, really. So I think that was sort of the moment where a lot of things came together, sort of crystallized, if we can use that word, in my world and in the world that I was trying to build to get FM going again. And it just so happens that the fellow who played Mandolin, because Nash, of course, was a mandolin violin player, and that was one of his claim to fames, it was Kevin Bright.

And Kevin Bright is in the new FM. And so we have a separate mandolin and violin player playing with us to replace Nash the Slash and the other fellow who played with us for quite a number of years, Ben Mink, who both played mandolin and violin. So a lot of pieces came together at that. Not all of them happened in the washroom.

Some of them happened on stage and some happened on screen. Okay, this is exciting news. So, okay, so Nash the Slash, who will get into, real name Jeff Plumann, we're going to get into Nash the Slash. We're going to learn more about who you are and how FM comes to be. But you mentioned Nash the Slash,

he played electric violin and electric mandolin. Did I hear you right that you need two people to replace them in this go-round? Did I hear that right? You did. Okay. So who is playing electric violin with FM at these upcoming concert? Right.

So Kevin Bright may be familiar to your audience. He's certainly played around Toronto quite a bit. Hugh Marsh is actually contemporary of Nash and myself. Right. It's a big name. And he's played with Bruce Coburn. He's touring right now with Lorena McKinnett. Yeah.

And so, you know, he, he, he's. a bit more mysterious. But he's going to be playing, Hugh Marsh is going to be playing electric violin with FM on these upcoming dates. And Kevin Bright will be playing mandolin, and between the two of them will have covered the essential music components

of FM's music, which always had a mandolin violin player. I think that's great. Like I think that those two guys, I think this is all coming together, like a perfect storm, if you will. So, two quick,

fun facts, like almost housekeeping items off the top. And then I was thinking we go and talk, because Mike is on the live stream. And he's, yes, we're going to dive into FM. But I'm hoping maybe we first talk about a band called Clear. Ah. But I want you to know you're the fourth Cameron slash Cam to appear on Toronto Mike. You're the fourth. This is 1998, the episode 1998.

And of course, Jeremy Hopkins on the live stream. and he would love me to remind everybody, 1998 is the year Toronto, the megacity, if you will, was amalgamated. All the boroughs came together. We got a mel last minute, as I recalled. So do you live in Toronto, Cameron? I live in Toronto now.

I grew up in North York. Okay, well. And Scarborough. So in 1998, Scarborough and North York and Toronto all became one big blob, the megacity. Have you voted yet? Will you be voting on Monday? Absolutely. So which one?

Harvey, did you do the pre-voting or you wait for election day? I'm waiting for election day. That's the exciting day to do it when the buzz is in the air. Okay. So, 1998, honor of the megacity, Torontoans, please get out and vote. Monday is election day. You're the fourth Cameron to guest on Toronto Mike.

As we approach episode 2000, everyone listening should know. Episode 2000 is going to drop Friday morning. So this is 1998, setting us up for the big municipal election. on Monday is Ed Keenan from the Toronto Star. He visits Thursday. He's going to get the exciting number, 1999.

And then episode 2000, a big surprise guest, is going to drop Friday morning. Cameron, are you excited about that? Definitely. Good. Good answer. Okay. So you're the fourth Cameron. So I'm now going to shout out the first three.

One, you may know Cam Carpenter. Ah. Do you know Cam Carpenter? Cam and I are notorious for running into it. each other in clubs and going, cam, cam, and everybody looking around going, what a bunch of cans. Yeah, he, every time I'm at something, he was probably at those events I bumped into you at recently. He's had everything, this guy, Camp Carpenter. And he came to the most recent TMLX event. After we get rolling here, I will tell everybody where they can find TMLX 24 because you're invited, Cameron.

and that's happening November 28th, but more on that later. The second Cam, I want to shout out. His name is Cam Wully. Cam Wully was on CP-24 for a very long time. He used to be with the Ontario Provincial Police. Shout out to Kim Mitchell and his hat. Cam Wully, his last day on the job, he rolled by here to do his exit interview.

So the third Cam is celebrating a birthday today. So happy 49th birthday today to FOTM. Hall of Famer, Cam Gordon, and you, Mr. Hawkins, are the fourth Cameron in Toronto Mike history. Well, what an honor. I feel I need an applause button or something here. Okay. Who the hell?

Well, yes, let's talk about Clear. Who were you when Clear was created and what is clear for the people who don't know? Well, let's wind the clock. back and sort of set the scene. Go back. When you were an embryo. Shortly after that, when I grew feet and could move around. In the 1970s, we had just gone through a wave of the explosion of music on a global scale.

And I'm talking about rock and roll, starting with the Afrolet, you know, the Afroval. beats added to folk music and things got raucas and the Beatles and the rise of psychedelic music and the rise of peace, love, and groovy. And sort of a whole generation of us came into our teenage years and grew up with music being, well, it was like our social media. And it was a very special thing in a very special time because music was something that you loved so much, you put down three or five or seven dollars and you bought the album because you loved music. And you had a relationship with music that wasn't just you, but it was just you. And it was very direct and it meant something to you.

but it also meant something to all your friends. And even though there was some likes and dislikes within it, you know, everybody has styles that they like. It was the thing that bound us together as human beings. So what was the original question? Well, we're building yourself to clear. But I do like this context because you're growing up in North York. I would be curious what bands, what musicians were you listening to?

What radio station were you tuned into? North York? Like, who is Cameron Hawkins when clear is formed and what the heck was clear? Well, okay. So you didn't know it would be so tough over here. I'm back on track. And so I came from a musical family. Okay.

And in my father's era, just to sidetrack for a minute, which was technologically way different because really all they had was radio. and radio was something that came in around the 1920s. And that was the beginning of the power of music that could bind people together, especially young people. So, well, you know, old folks do, but let's not put them down. So I played music when I was a kid. And I grew up in North York, there was, they taught classical music in high school.

And some people might go, yuck. but you know what, if it's music and you're playing music, nothing can go wrong. And so I learned the cello, but then switched to bass guitar. And as soon as I could, i.e. when high school was finished, I joined a band and we started playing around southern Ontario in small town bars and clubs. And, you know, we just had a bunch of friends that we dropped out of college and just said, let's put a band together and play because you could. And so, well, that was very exciting.

Hotel burned down and we lost all our rented equipment. Where was that? Hotel. That was in the Sudbury. So we escaped with our lives. You had a Sudbury Saturday night. We had a Sudbury Saturday night. You lived in the hotel along with all the retired folks and a lot of veterans.

What's the name of this band? Is this clear or no? No, this was River Run. River Run. Okay. I can take a notes over here. Okay. We played the music that we loved, which was, we'd heard it on the radio.

So there was a bit of country, there was a bit of rock. What station? What we would, when, when we first got our own transistor radios that you could put under your pillow and listen to all night. Can I guess? That would have been like about 1959 and that would have been Chum A.m. 1050 Chum. You were a chum bug. In fact.

And just, you know, since, since we're just bopping around here. This is the stuff I really care about. If you told me when I was 11 years old that one day I would have a hit on the chum chart, I would have said, you are a crazy man. Yeah. Or woman. And then it came true many years later. So that was the kind of world we lived in.

But along came when we were about 15 or 16. along came Chum FM, which had previously been classical, but started playing the weirdest music. And like, Gregorian chants one minute and jazz piano the next minute, and then Jefferson Airplane. And so there was just music, the broadest scope of music possible. and they started doing that in the later 60s, and that was sort of the growth of alternative music for us. You know, these pieces are all fitting together, Cameron. And like, this is what I love about having these longer form conversations

with talented artists like yourself, is that David Pritchard was on the air. Exactly. And, I mean, this will come together later, but I searched everywhere. I should have asked you, but I like to surprise things, but I'm like,

I know, we'll get to this, but Nash to Slash, I've seen your performance on TV Ontario. Yes. It's legendary. But I read David Pritchard did some kind of a spoken word poetry thing, and I searched everywhere for this audio,

and I came up empty. But David Pritchard is top of mind for me because he was shouted out privately with me. We talked about him when Jane Eastwood was over here. And she had done some, I think some Second City stuff with David Pritchard maybe in the early mid-70s.

Regardless, David Pritchard has been brought up recently with guests I've had on and I was dying to hear what David Pritchard said on TV Ontario before your wildly excellent performance, which we'll get to in great detail, but this also reminds me that we have

just lost somebody from this era of chum that you're referring to, 104.5, David Mars. A Mars bar. Say a few words about the late great fellow FOTM, David Marston. Well, David was definitely a unique character, and he had many different sort of approaches.

The first one I heard of was the rapid-wrapping DJ who could speak a mile a minute, Dave Mickey. And then he became David Marsden, I would say, a man who had slowed down, but not necessarily stopped. And kind of had a more of a, you know, if he went from the fast,

rapid talking motor mouth to a very rapy, stoned out kind of groovy guy. And that's the guy who would play Pink Floyd, Chum. Oh, yeah. He would play the, you know, the entire tales from topographic oceans by yes. So he was a character. Before him was a guy named Reiner Schwartz. Of course, yes. And so, I would say, Reiner came first. David Pritchard came second. And then David Marston sort of came, David made the transition. Right. Because he was in Montreal. He went to Montreal after the whole

Dave Mickey 590. Right. So these guys, they were, the DJ was the character. He was the human being that you could relate to because they were in your town.

And you saw them at concerts, introducing bands. And so they were the connection. It was an amazing time. It changed very quickly. And it sure is a heck of a lot different today. And that's one of the things is we wanted to bring the spirit of music, the spirit of radio.

Back to Rush. And Marsden. And CFNY was another radio station. But when Ash and I met in the band Clear, which was sort of my first original music band, I'd played with River Run, the hotel had burned down. I went, that's not going to stop me. and I started playing in clubs closer to Toronto, but it was still other people's music.

Well, I met a couple of friends, and we started a band, and we did some recording with the illustrious Jack Richardson, who made the guess who sound like a band. Everybody wanted to dance to. Legendary producer. But at the same time, the Canadian government had put in place regulations that radios had to play Canadian music. And this was something that had come into place into legislation

in the late 60s and early 70s. Well, by the time I'd sort of run my course with popular music and looking for something original, the idea of Canadian content was in full force and record companies, even if they were owned by Americans, had to have Canadian A&R people, talent hunters, had to sign them, and had to put that, their music had to be played on the radio.

So this was another sort of, I guess, commercial stimulation to put Canadian music in front of Canadians. And so that was sort of the thing that led from Clear, where I had, where Nash had joined us right towards the end where the band broke up, we started a two-man electronic-based, I played synthesizers bass guitar and sang. Nash played mandolin violin and sang, and we were a two-man, sort of more experimental music. Okay, and that is FM. So how many members in Clear?

In Clear there was sort of, we had a couple of drummers come in and out, but it was guitar, bass, and drums. Yeah, so you're missing guitars and drums in this FM lineup. If it's just you and Nash the Slash, no guitars. Well, you know, if you had met Nash back there, you would have known that he was quite a character. To tell you the truth, I had seen the band that he was in before he and I started FM.

And they were called Breathless. And Breathless were a sort of, how would you, Uriah Heep style band, a heavier rock thing, and maybe a bit like Frank Zappa, or trying to think of an American band. More like Grant Funk, maybe. He had, down at Ontario Place, started playing with his band, played a violin solo,

grabbed a something, took a swig of it on stage, took his bow, lit it on fire, held up his violin, held up the bow with the fire, and set his violin on fire by blowing a flame onto it. The violin exploded. The flames landed on the first three rows of the people at Ontario plays. And I thought to myself, that's disgusting. That's not music. That's just showmanship. Performance. Well, six months later,

I had a showman as my musical. Wow. And off we went. Well, I feel this is as good a time as any to play a song. I'm going to play a song by FM, and then we're going to get into it. I want to make sure you know, just before I press play here,

that I have for you, Cameron, a, well, what do I call this now? It's a flashlight slash bottle opener slash measuring tape slash level. But this is courtesy of Ridley Funeral Home and they've got a great podcast called Life's Undertaking.

So that's a little gift for you. Thank you. While I press play on this. Okay. Well, you can talk over it. I know you've heard it before Cameron, but I can just bring it down and we can hear your voice maybe.

what are you thinking when you hear this song in the headphones? As good as it ever has. I agree. I played the hell out of this song on Toronto mic shortly after the... Well, I heard it played live by the band that was playing after the National Slash documentary premiere. Right. featuring Kevin Bright on Mandolin. Right.

Who else was in that band? Oh. I know, I know. I'm putting it on the spot here. Was it friendly rich? It's friendly rich in that band? He might have been. I mean, was Rob Proust? No, Rob Proust was not in that band.

No. But he did do the music for the dog. The drummer plays... I'm going to say real statics, but... Oh, that's Canada's... Yes, okay, that's Don Kerr. Is that Don Kerr? Oh, gosh.

Canada's drummer, maybe. You know what, I'm putting on the spot here. Let me just tell you, I heard it. And then I'm like... And a punk rocker was singing and singing the song. on. Okay, was it, it wasn't Ian Blurton or anything? It was.

It was Ian Blurton. Okay, yes. It's all coming back to me now. And I should ask Mike, he's on the live stream. I know he was there that night. But I was like, oh, that sounds amazing. And then of course, I start revisiting this song, which is called Phasers on Stun by FM. And I played it, the mess out of it.

It sounded so great in the headphones. And I played it on, I played it for Rob Bruce on a toast, and I played it for whoever was my next guest. And this, and I just kept playing it. I'm still playing it. I need you to bury me in stories, like the composition of this song,

any fun facts and mind blows you can share with us, Cameron, about phasers on stun by FM. Anything. And everything. Okay, well, the song... Take your time. I have several hours blocked for this conversation. The song came together

because in between breathless, I have told you about, which was Nash's previous band, the ones that set the audience on fire, literally, at Ontario Place. He had done solo shows at the Roxy Theater to a movie. He didn't have bandages on at that time, but he had his whole get-up, and it looked very macabre. And so when Clear broke up, the band you've been referring to,

He said, listen, I think you should, you and I should start a two-man band in Toronto and start playing around. Why don't you come to my home studio and we'll see if we can't make some music. So I showed up at his, this would be late 1975. I showed up at his place and I walked in and it was upstairs at an old theater in an old building and right across the hall from his entrance on the second floor was the projection room for the Roxy Theater. So I walk into this kind of strange place. I'd never been in a projectionist's apartment before. And, no, he wasn't the projectionist, but he was living there.

Right. And there were like horror posters everywhere. And I'm talking, you're like guys holding their hand, which was being stitched back. There was like death scenes everywhere. And he said, come back. And I'm going, okay, this guy's creepy. There's no doubt about it. Right.

And he said he had it in his, his bedroom, the bed was way off to the side, and he had sort of a coffin set up with all of his musical creation tools, including mandolin and violin. And he started to play me some of the songs he'd written. One of the things he played me was the intro to phasers. You know, that piece of music that you had just turned. And I went, I've never heard anything like that before. But it sounds really good.

I would like to add keyboards to that. And that's how the song started. And so because I was singing and playing keyboards, he wasn't sort of so much the singer or so much, especially the lyricist. He left that to me. And so we've quickly found out we had a unique approach to doing things. I could play a bass with my right hand on a synthesizer that could sound like a bass instrument

on my left hand because I studied a bit of piano. I could play chords. And so the chords, the bass, that took care of that part of the music. Nash had a drum machine very early in those days, but he put it through a fuzz, an echo, distortion units, and it made it sound like this sort of thrashing tribal rhythm. So we had something very unique. Well, really quickly.

Really quickly, that comes together. Phasers on Stun, but I alluded earlier to that because I can see this performance on YouTube. So I've seen the TV Ontario in studio performance. I think the show was called Night Music Concert. I think it was called Night Music Concert. That's correct.

how, because you don't have any recordings yet, right? Like, I need to know how it's July 1976. I don't even, you tell me, I think it's, what are the order of things, man who was there, Cameron Hawkins, as I try to guess what comes first, like, do you record and then TBO somehow hears it and says, Cameron, Cameron, we need you. Like, how do you end up with that TV Ontario performance? That's just amazing.

Well, a lot of amazing things like happened to us. I'm listening. Including that, you know, rush calling and saying, join us for moving pictures, our breakout record, maybe the best one they've ever recorded, but they've recorded so many best ones. So, you know, it was a very fortuitous meeting in that Nash, who had done a lot of good work as a soloist, and me who was looking to be able to,

contribute music to something that was original, that it's a spark. And when you're in a place where the government's saying, you have to play Canadian music, you can't just play American music. And when there's everybody going, we love music, we love going to music as often as we can. We love buying music. It's more important to us than anything else. a lot of good things happened then and a lot of good music was made

so in those days the tools that we had were cassettes and reel-to-reel tape recorders and our imaginations and that's really all we needed to put the whole black noise thing together

now we did play a show right after our first show was was a TV show. We went into a studio and played, and that was Nash's connections. He had good connections. I had no connections. Like, how does this happen?

Because you're such a new band, and I'm guessing, you tell me, because I was very young at this time, but this airs, or it was broadcast on November 3rd, 1976. You're not on the radio, at that point, are you? Is FM on the radio? No. So there's no radio exposure. You're a brand new duo. It's you and Nash the slash. How do you end up with this in studio performance on the night music concert TV show? Well, that was due to Reiner Schwartz, who who was a DJ at Chum FM. So he was part of that explosion of new and various music. It was like he and he and he, and he was, you know, it was a, he, I could see his, his roots in, um, the previous to the hippies were

the beatniks and, and they had a lot of spoken word. That was like their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, their, they're, they would snap instead of applause. You were, yes, exactly. Just snapping fingers. So, um, so, um, so we had written phasers on stun one o'clock tomorrow. and Black Noise were the three songs that we'd written. Those were the three songs that we played in our first gig, which was two cameras. And David Pritchard had done a sort of interlude,

which we did as the music, and he did that kind of rapping, hippie, free-form, spoken word, introduction. Oh, they call it free association poetry. poetry. So, I mean, we, and our next thing we did after that, which was at the end of November, was three nights at a hippie art gallery in downtown Toronto called A-Space. And at that show, because, again, Nash was plugged into the scene. He'd been in breathless. And the Toronto scene at that point was raging. Well, I did my sort of formative early,

years playing in in around bars and around southern ontario nash had been downtown toronto where the scene was where it started in yorkville as you probably have heard and it started in coffee houses and there were a lot of original bands and a lot of original music at that time and that was that was a real sort of birthplace and we just happened to sort of arrive at the right time okay And that addresses a question that did come in on the live stream from Mike, who says, he writes, I love the early FM show floating around out there from November 1976 at a space. So it's wild to me. This is an art gallery you mentioned there.

So a space is the first public performance, because it wasn't your first, technically your first public performance is in front of cameras. So this is Cameron in front of cameras. And this is for TV, Ontario. People have to go find this thing. And you can thank Reiner Schwartz and you've got David Pritchard. What a Chum FM connection to all this. By the way, do you have audio of David Pritchard's pre-association poetry?

Do you have that? Yes, we do. So, in fact, how do I get it? Well, right now we're working how we can best bring that show into our performance. Okay. I like these details. Can't say anymore.

You've already said too much. Watch your back there. Watch your back there. Okay. But tell me what you can remember about these first public performances in at a space. It's funny to say that at a space.

It's the name of the place, a space. And just what do you remember about those dates with you and Nash and slash? And then you'll have to tell me at some point when and why does, Nash to slash put on the bandages? Because he's not wearing the bandages in that TV Ontario special. Not for several

more years. Okay, we're way ahead of that. So, but you know, just so I think I've given you the idea that one music was our life. It was our, it was our growth. It was our awareness.

It was our social pivot point. But it's always been like that. Music affects human beings like nothing else. Well, there's lots of things that have come later that have affected them differently, but music, it goes right into your heart and soul via your ears and brain. And so when we played those three nights, much like we're playing the Redwood Theater, it's from the ground up. It's not like we arrive. It's not like we arrive with hype. We arrived with

an outgrowing interest and craving for exciting music. And so we played those night music shows and that led to a show at the Ontario College of Art and design. And that led to performances at York University. And then

eventually CBC wanted us to do another show. So at that first show where when we did one o'clock tomorrow black noise and phasers on stun, there were people from all of the major record companies who were very impressed with the show and the music and all. But, you know, they, they thought like business people, which is, it's all well and good, but you need a drummer. So we, you know, Who I met. I met him that night. I met you. You did. He was, he was at the, he was at the Nash documentary as well.

Right. Martin Deller. Martin Deller. And so, um, by the third show, I think the first two shows, the, or two performances, um, at A-Space and then at O-CAD, we were just a two-piece with a, um, uh, uh, sort of visual background. By the third show at York University, which would have been in January of 1977 now, Martin Deller had joined us on drums. And once we got the drums, then we could play to a rock audience, even though our drummer was more in the jazz fusion style. And it sort of brought us more out of maybe what you would call the art scene and into the Prague scene. Well, let me bring David Pritchard back into this thing, right?

Because he did some kind of a 13-minute improvised piece called An Admission of Guilt. And this was for his album, Nocturnal Earthworms Stew. Did you have a copy of Nocturnal Earthworms Stew in your collection camera? I do. Okay. Would you like to borrow it? I don't know how to play it. Like, you might see, I have vinyl.

I don't have anything that plays vinyl at this moment. I feel like that's the next thing I got to do. Somebody, if you have an old record player that functions, let me know, okay? Because I need a record player for all my vinyl here and I can finally play this stuff. But this, it's called an admission of guilt, as I said, that had Martin Deller and Nash the slash on it, like on this piece, I guess. So I think that is the connection Nash, the slash had with Martin Deller. Yes, that, they're like, again, there were so much.

many things happening there. There was sort of a continual bubbling of creation. And Nash and David Pritchard had already done some music together and Nash had played on a record that Martin had played on. And so Marty, even though I say he was a

jazz fusion drummer playing in a rhythm and blues band, which, you know, there's a definite direct link between the two in terms of rhythm. And so from there we then kind of, I guess, forsook,

or dropped our kind of artsy side and got into a much more rhythmically evolved kind of thing. And that was sort of also the beginning, I think, of Nash going to himself.

I've got something that I do that no one else does, that I can always do if for some reason I don't want to play in FM anymore. And do you know, that's one of the sort of, I guess there's pluses and minuses in every sort of career path you choose. And Nash was in and out of FM probably six times over the next 20 years. And we somehow still survived. And he had, and he had. had a surviving and thriving solo career. Okay, before we get to the first departure of Nash, the slash, you mentioned the CBC show. So what was that show called?

Ooh. I happen to know, but I'm going to test your memory, Cameron. You're better off betting against it. Okay, well, let me tell you then. It's called Who's New? Who's New? Yeah, who's new? And I don't know anything more about it except the title.

I missed this show completely, but it was like a variety show on, of course, CBC, the national program, and who approached, is this another national slash connection, or is it because of the TV Ontario thing? These are both public broadcasters, one federal, one provincial, if you will. Like, like, how do you get approached to appear on who's new, and how does that help lead to the album we know as Black Noise? So the, you know, once again, we were swept up, if you, like by the currents and the streams that were continually flowing.

So once the government said you had to do it on radio, you also had to start doing it on TV. And so there was opportunity. There was opportunity for the CBC. And actually, the first album that we did, Black Noise, later in the summer of 1977, was recorded by the CBC. Oh.

And then it, they sort of, they... And that's because of who's new? That's because they had a mandate to develop Canadian talent and to give it an opportunity to broaden its horizons and to get more experience. So we did radio shows with them. because there was a sort of non-visual adventure shows that they would have, and we would do spacey music to Johnny Chase agent from outer space, which was a weekly radio show, adventure show,

and we did very spacey music for it. Yeah, well, there's a lot of spacey music coming at FM. So the CBC, just like the radio and night music, was the local provincial educational channel. They were the ones who did the night music show. These opportunities were there. If I think, you know, one of the things that is because we purposely, Nash and I said, let's just be ourselves and do something that makes sense to us

and not worry about the fact that no one has. had ever done it in that way before. Right. There's no blueprint. You're going to create the blueprint. Exactly. I love the cut of your jib. Are kids still saying that? I love the cut of your jib here. Okay. But what I don't know, because again, I was very young in the mid-70s, I don't understand, was CBC in the business of, like, were they, like, working as a record

label? Like, I don't know of CBC making albums for Canadian bands. Was that something just happening in the 70s? Well, no, it was, yes. Okay, so what was it? It was stated that in order, because the CBC's money comes from the government, you know, they now have advertisement back then. They didn't have any advertisement. They had government money. So they had to justify how they were spending that money.

And one of them was that they came up with was called broadcast recordings. They would record bands that were emerging all across Canada because they had studios all across Canada. So it wasn't just FM who was going to record the album. Oh, gosh, the name is escaping me. But David, the blues guitar. Wilcox. Will Cox. Do the Bear Cat?

brilliant, brilliant, brilliant blues songwriter, raconteur, the general, absolutely wonderful blues player. He also played on the broadcast recordings. But the thing is, like, because their music was government-funded, they couldn't exploit it. They put it in their library where, upon, by the way, the original tapes were, recordings were stolen.

Whoa. So any recording you hear of black noise came from an album that was sampled and sort of worked magic on it to remove the sounds of the needle dropping and that sort of thing. Really? So basically that means the masters were stolen, right? The masters disappeared. I did not know that.

So, wow. It's not a fun fact, but it's a fact. Well, you know what? It's a fact of life that you have to, if you don't recover from the bad things, you'll never get to do the next good thing that comes along. Well, speaking of bad things, am I right that, so CBC doesn't put this, like, you don't, it wasn't in like, am I right? It wasn't in like Sam the Record Man, for example.

Like this was, am I right that it was, that's the third time I said, am I right? So I better be right here. But it was mail order. it was mail order only and get this all those fellows who from the record companies who were at the night music show

who finally we got black noise one o'clock tomorrow and phasers on stun along with some other original material none of them would put the record out I think because there was only one song that was three minutes

and that's it to get a hit. You had to have a three-minute song, and that was Phasers on Stun, at least in terms of the time thing, although, and so they wouldn't sign us. And it was an American, East Coast, New Jersey record company who had a lot of arts music and progressive music and basically the European rock music. They were the ones who put the album out in the States. And then... Well, that's Visa Records.

That was Visa Records, was Passport Records, side label. GRT Records in Canada heard about it. Passport had a deal with G or Visa had a deal with them to release American stuff. So in order for us to get released in Canada, we had to sign with an American company and have them take the record to a Canadian company who then released it. And Cameron, think about that when you realize it was a CBC album that was basically being reissued. Like, that's a mind blow. You got to go through the states to get it into Sam the record, man. No one said it would be easy.

That makes, well, maybe, maybe that is right on brand of, without. how things work around here. I feel like I'm Dave Hodge here. Well, that's just the way things work around here. Okay, so now that we've got you with an actual, I can go to Sam the Record Man, I can buy a copy of Black Noise, so I could play phasers on stun on my turntable,

which I had in the late 70s. So I'm curious, like, where Phasers on Stun would have been played in Canada, but before we get to that big question, at this point, there's no more Nash the slash in FM. Like this is now, because you're now in 1978,

and if I'm right, and you were there, my friend, but Nash's Slash has that, was it a bike accident? What happened? He had an accident in 1977? No. Was he,

are you referring to his leaving? Like, yeah, when he leaves FM to go solo for the first time there, wasn't that after a bike accident? I gotta go watch that documentary again

that the guy's made. Okay. So tell me the, story of Nash to slash leaving FM for the first time and bringing in a replacement. And then I need to hear who was playing phasers on stun. That's two different questions there. Okay. So actually, Black Noise was the first album we recorded.

Nash walked out of the recording of that record. He wasn't in the band when it was mixed. and by the way, the, yeah, there was a four-track, quad-mix of the record, which also got lost by the CBC. Jeez. So this was the summer of 77.

So he and I had been working together a little over a year, but we were playing every week in Toronto. Just imagine that, you know, you could sort of get up, get on the subway, and go to work from 9 o'clock to 1 in the morning kind of thing. So it was a special time. In the meantime, as soon after he left,

we looked around for a mandolin violin player and found a fellow by the name of Ben Mink. And Ben Mink was playing with Marie McLaughlin at the time, but had also been part of the band, Mary Lou Horner was the name of the band, who opened up for every band that played the Toronto rock pile, including Led Zeppelin, Prokaharam, all of these wonderful progressive rock bands.

And, you know, admittedly, Led Zeppelin was a bit more heavy metal, but they, you know... And that venue would be today, that's the concert hall, aka the Masonic Temple at 888 Youngstreet. Right. Because I actually just recently was telling somebody about, I think it was about Zeppelin playing the rock pile. And then I said, you know, the Masonic Temple.

And this person who wasn't born in Toronto had just moved to Toronto years ago had no idea that when she would read or hear about the rock pile, it was 888 Youngstreet. Right. Like I wonder how many other people don't realize, because I think some other event, like I think there's in Tobacco here, there's an old mother's pizza that I think calls itself the rock pile now.

Like I wonder how many people think Zeppelin was playing the pizza. What was it called Mother's Pizza? It was a different world. When I compare that today where, especially during COVID, where rock music became a corporate thing and has become a corporate thing. It wasn't an overnight thing. And while other, while the independent clubs on the street were closing down, they were buying them up and sort of creating it part of their supply chain

where the bands that they designated, many of them Americans obviously, could play Toronto while building an audience. And it's sort of, you know, they bought into a, mature business proposition that really had less and less to do with people making music and taking chances and caring about giving their audience something special. Well said, and now I need to know how it was playing with Ben Mink after those years playing with Nash the Slash. Like, what was, was there pros?

Was there cons? Oh, it was an amazing thing. There couldn't have been a bigger difference between the Nash-the-slash approach to music and the Ben-Mink approach to music. And, you know what? The funny thing is, even though that's true, the music on black noise was such that somebody could come in with talent and with talent. I guess what's the word courage and make those songs theirs and take those songs and the songs changed because because something new was being brought to them. It wasn't just Ben saying, well, I'll play Nash's parts and we'll just go make a lot of money. Right. It was Ben Mink saying,

I have something to bring to these songs. And so that, that approach, to this day, the people who, the four of us, when we go out on November 27th and play to, you know, the new club, the Redwood, that is just going to be a wonderful time because those songs are going to change again. And those are opportunities. It's not like we're ever going to get together and be the same as we were, but we can be better and different. That's the opportunity. Are you still in contact with Ben? Yes. Although he lives in Vancouver, he's pretty much retired now. He went on to star with Katie Lang, co-wrote her most successful albums, and really got the recognition that he deserves. And he's a part of the Rush universe, because he's got the collaborations with Rush. So when rush called us in 1982 or 81, I guess it was, and said, can you be in Syracuse in three days, Ben was still, he joined us in 1977, and he stayed with us through to 1982.

and he joined us on the on the Rush show. And the three-man band FM opened up for the three-man band Rush. And so it was sort of a natural pairing off of Ben Mink and Getty Lee became very good friends. And drummers, Marty Deller and Neil Peart became really good friends. And Neil and I, we didn't hang out to the same extent. but, you know, he was the one left over that... Very private man. Yeah.

As we learned in the documentary, it needed his personal time. Okay. So, you know, National Sacks about to come back into FM. So there's a lot of you mentioned, a lot of weaving in and out here. But I'm going to just take this moment to make sure you, Cameron, and everybody listening, takes a note. I don't know. Open your Google calendar, your Apple calendar, okay, whatever app you use to track your life and put dates in,

and put TMLX 24. It's noon to 3 p.m. on November 28. That's a Saturday, 2026, of course. And the location for this event is Palma's Kitchen in Mississauga. On that note, Cameron,

I have in my freezer upstairs a large frozen lasagna for you courtesy of Palma pasta. Wow. Not just Great Lakes, beer for you, but I also, so there's fresh craft beer for you from Great Lakes Brewery. I've got a frozen lasagna and I have to tell everybody that at this event, TMLX24, I will bring fresh craft beer. I believe my driver, the VP of sales. We always grab several cases of fresh craft beer

for anybody who comes to TMLX24 because Palma pasta will feed you. We'll have some fresh craft beer. I had to make sure I get some non-alcoholic beverages. They have a one. wonderful hop-pop at Great Lakes. That's a mental note. A, VP, if you're listening, we need to make sure we got some hop-pop for people who don't indulge in alcoholic beverages. But this is all happening, Cameron, it's going to be a party. It's free. Did I mention it's free?

Can't wait. Can't wait. Okay. And one last shout-out, because we just had an episode last week with Cliff Hacking from EPRA. That's the good people behind RecycleMyElectronics.ca. and Cliff made the big announcement that they are going to sponsor Torontoite throughout 2027. So that Cameron is good news for this independent podcaster. And I would just like to tell you for safe, secure recycling,

for residents, businesses, and the environment, recycling electronics and appliances with local recycle my electronics programs is free, fast, and easy. Ready to recycle Cameron? Bring it! find out what and where to recycle at Recycle MyElectronics.com. Okay, you've been amazing, Cameron. We're not done yet because I have a lot more grounding

to cover. How are you doing so far? Really good, thank you. Good. Checking in on you. If you need more beverage, let me know because I'll play a song and I'll run up and get you some. I'm okay right now.

Okay, you're good right now. So Nash the slash, so your trio became you, Martin Deller, and Ben Mink. And Ben is replaced by Nash the Slash. I guess this is in 1983. So tell me what, like, how does that come to be?

Ben left the band and then Nash said all come back. Like, how did it all, that switcheroo happen again? Yeah. So, as I say, Ben had been with us since the fall of 1977. Right. It is starting with a project that came to us and said, we're in Toronto studio and said, we are putting a direct-to-disc line of musical products together.

We'd like you to play. And that was amazing. So after having done black noise, which was structured songs and Nash and I had worked them out, and Martin Deller had brought his drums in, and everything was fine, this was like, okay, we're doing it the old way. And the old way before tape recorders was,

they put a record on a turntable, and instead of it playing, they put a needle on it that cut a groove as the record spun around. It was a little sliver of plastic that came off. In that sliver was a channel that would make a needle put on it, reproduced the music.

The guy in the control room in the studio put up his hand and counted down, five, four, three, two, one. The needle came down and started cutting silence in the record until you played, and you counted in and started playing. 28 minutes later, when the needle got towards the center of the record,

you had to stop. And that's how you recorded a directed disc. And that's how every record was made until the 50s, until tape recorders were invented. Right. Like you see them in like movies. You'll see. Yeah.

If somebody screws up apart, let's start again or whatever. Yeah. It's like live to tape. Throw it out. Right. Okay. So,

so Ben joined us for the, you know, if you're getting the idea that this was a very adventurous exciting time with both good things and bad things happening, you wouldn't be wrong. Because this record, not only did it have no hits, it only had two songs, side one and side two. And you couldn't stop. Do you have a copy of this album? Oh, yeah.

Okay. There are still albums for sale. They just can't make any more. Right. Direct to disc. Okay. So I'm also wondering, Mike, if you're on the live stream, let me know. Okay, let me know if you have direct-to-disc.

And if you have, I guess, I guess there's not many original editions out there. It did get transferred to CD. Okay, sure, okay. So there's CD versions of it. Right, okay. Okay, and this is, you already has told us a great story about how the wild story of how you got distributed by GRT records here,

and you had to go through Visa records in the USA and passport records, and we got that whole story. So what radio stations would play, Phasers on Stun? Well, Phasers on Stun was a very interesting title for a hit single, which didn't have the words in the actual lyrics. So you could say that maybe we went a bit outside the curve there on, you know, what's the name of the song? A friend of mine always said,

Cam, if they don't know what the name of the song is by the second chorus, then something bad has happened. Well, you know, forget that. So the song that the title didn't make any reference to the lyrics was the first thing. The second thing was that, yes, there was Chom FM, and in Montreal there was Shome FM, and in Vancouver there were, and in most of the cities across, Canada, there were college radio stations and university radio stations that would play, you know, pretty much anything. But if you have a hit there, your only hope is to get

AM radio to play you. So what happened was, yes, they played Phasers on stun, but they wouldn't announce the name of the band on AM radio. Right. Because it's promoting the other band. Because it's, you know, it's promoting the band of broadcast. That's what I mean, yeah. The FM band broadcast.

So anyway. I didn't even think of that. That was, that was, but that. This is an exciting time in Canadian rock history here with ups and downs. and you don't have a blueprint, you're sort of creating one, but that means you're going to live and learn. Trial and error.

Trial and error. This is the way great things are done. Not the way to get rich, right? But, well, and the story continues. So it actually did very well. It got played all across Canada, got played all across the States. It's a great song.

Then the record company, After having given us a gold record for selling 50,000 copies of black noise went bankrupt. They didn't pay passport records who were the ones who owned the license to it because they had acquired that when they released our record in the states. They didn't pay passport. passport couldn't pay us. So not only did we have a hit and a gold record, we didn't have the third component, which is the money that you get when you get your record sold.

So this was the beginning of several. This is not an unusual. You're cursed. Occurrence. No, it wasn't just us. A folk singer Dan Hill. had multiple platinum records, which means several hundred,

thousands of them. Sure. He lost money too. We weren't the only ones. Kla, too, I think also had lots of records sold. They didn't get paid. And they weren't the last or the first Canadian record company to go bankrupt on us.

That's all I can say. Okay. So I still think you're kind of cursed, because these record labels keep going out of business here. And some of these labels were around since the early 50s. You know, talk about, you know, the quality records company, for example. Oh, yes. You know?

So it's like, okay. Okay, there's a lot going on here. Duke Street. Duke Street. I'm going to ask about Nash again here. So, and I... So anyway, you can understand all this leads up. Sorry.

No, go ahead. No, it's your show. It's your show. All of that. of this leads up to why Ben Mink after seven years playing in FM went look at we just played Madison Square Gardens for three nights and the LA forum for three nights and all over the states and you know I know there's and and we there the audiences loved us it was like we were a rush junior or something I don't know but anyway he said you know what I got to try something

else because we hadn't made enough money where there was like this this was going to be a climb up from zero again um after after after the after duke street went down or sorry before duke street went down so 1983 ben mink says uh sorry guys i actually need to like make a couple of bucks doing this is that the deal or he but he leaves fm yes okay how does nash the slash end up back in FM for round number two in 1983. So Nash had done very well as a solo player had signed a recording contract with Virgin Records in the United Kingdom, went to London, had lots of opening acts with various groups,

a couple of records released. But then, you know, things run. course. This is the thing that, you know, an actor friend always told me, he said, don't worry about being down. He said, you're never always going up and you're never always going down. You just have to keep in the game. And while we certainly prove that, more times than we would have liked. However, Nash, too had come back home and sort of had to rebuild from the ground up. So there was Ben Mink having left. I remember turning to to Getty Lee and say, what am I going to do, Ben Mink? He's like, in a three-man band,

you have to have three stars. You can't just have any other person. And Ben was a star. It went on to become a bigger star. And Nash had come back to Toronto and was looking to start something up again. Well, what better Ben? for him to join than FM. Okay. And I'm guessing that's how you get

signed to quality records is because Nash the slash was already signed as a solo artist. Right. Okay. And that's American

bandages. And again, people find this documentary. The filmmakers have all been over and, you know, it's been talked

quite a bit about quite a bit on Toronto Mike. And most importantly, there's music, the score, I guess it's called the score.

Mike, know your terminology, but there's music in this documentary that's performed by none other than FOTM Hall of Famer Rob Pruse from the Spoons. So that's a reason enough for a listener to seek out that documentary about National Slash. But I think now that I've got National Slash back in the band because Ben Mink has left.

And I know you release. This is now we're in the mid-80s here, contest. And I think I'm going to play just another FM song because this was on the radio as well. So let me just play a bit of just like you. Cameron, day I say this is a more radio-friendly single? A lot had changed. And the opportunity to record a more radio-friendly thing had sort of been, I think the best way to put it,

is beaten into us. But it sounds a bit like the car. Like there's a bit of a... Totally. Yeah. And I was, I just mentioned the spoons, but this would be like, okay, we got to go head to head with Burlington Spoons here. You're right in the party here. We definitely saw that there was like the electronics music side of FM, which was in the 70s, which was more of a.

sort of jazz fusion sort of groove could be translated over if we took the cars as a model. And, you know, I happen to really think the cars were excellent songwriters, fantastic musicians,

and put together songs that will be with us as long as Black Noise has been with us. Absolutely. So we took the road of least resistance after having been through four record company bankruptcies. And, you know, and sort of seen how Rush had done it. And what they basically did is they just kept at it and they played what they wanted to.

And we played what we wanted to too. It just this time through the 80s, it was a chance for us to assume. a position that we would be happy with. Catchy Diddy. Now this one here, does this get on, I don't know, does CFTR play this one? Oh yeah, for sure. Yeah, this is a top 40 hit in this country. Well, and the word, yes, this was the song that made it to the top 20 of Chum FM,

a chum a.m. The Chum chart. So is it fair to say that even though maybe Phasers on Stun as we speak now gets a little more the coverage because it's such a cool, spacey, futuristic sounding jam that still sounds great in the headphones. But looking back at the career of FM, I think we're listening to the biggest hit. Yeah, definitely. I'm not saying anything controversial here. I'm trying to pretend like I'm breaking some mind-blowing factoid, but yeah, definitely. Definitely. So this version of FM lasted from 83 through a second record called Tonight, 87, and by 89, Nash had left again.

But he, and this, if you go, if you remember from the documentary, he didn't just leave this time and go, well, then I'm just going to go do my solo thing. he walked away from it spitefully and sort of fired a few well-chosen words in disgust. And you know what, by this time, this sort of behavior we're used to and it's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. So we found another mandolin violin player and sort of finished off the 80s until he came back again. Right. Okay, who did you find to finish off the 80s? Marty Shaw was a mandolin violin player.

I think the last of his kind. Yeah, I was going to say, they don't grow on trees, right? Like, you're lucky to have Hugh Marsh. What do you do when we run out of these guys? Well, you get a violin player and a mandolin player. Right. And you come out again. But, you know, all of this is water under the bridge.

Sure. And yes, we did come back. We did play a few more shows with Nash. We did a live, put out a live album. called retroactive. And, you know, that was, that was it for that version of FM until actually the 2006 revival of us for one show at a progressive rock festival in the States, which was a lot of fun. And we put out a live video of that DVD. and that brings us back into the teens,

the 2018 show that we did in Chicago at another progressive rock festival and a record that we recorded that was released in 2015, which was, if that was the new wave FM that we rode the 80s curve on, This was back hardcore progressive rock, weird time signatures and songs that go on and on and have different movements and all sorts of, the classic sort of progressive rock thing. It was called transformation.

Transformation. Okay. Now I'm going to hit you of some questions that came in when I said Cameron Hawkins from FM finally making his Toronto mic. I cornered them in a bathroom. Okay. That's how this went down here. And the first, well, this is more of a fun fact. Somebody reminded me, but I just think it's an interesting fact, is that in 1983, rough trade, so shout out to FOTM, Carol Pope, rough trade were offered a Pepsi commercial, and it was going to air in Canada.

But the ad was pulled because Pepsi featured people wrapped in bandages and wearing tuxedos and sunglasses. And they didn't have any clearance or permission or license from Nash to Slash. So they had to pull it because they were, We're using the likeness of Nash to slash. Do you remember this ad at all? Yes, I do. Okay, so this is more of a fun fact.

Because in 83, I'm too young to kind of know the stuff's going on in the zeitgeist, but I'm starting to kind of come online when it comes to the pop culture around me in 83. But I missed that one, but that's like an interesting fact. So when Nash, well, here, no, there's a note that came in from Mark. Mark writes, ask Cameron Hawkins about what I believe was the final FM show with Nash the Slash, a Molson indie concert with BTO and Loverboy and them playing in daylight.

Does Mark have his fact correct here? Yes, he does. Okay, what do you remember about that? Hey, in, did he have a year for that? No. Okay. Come on, Mark. So I'm guessing it would have been in the 90s,

and there was a revival show called, you know, rock stars of the 70s. And they said, would you like to play? And, you know, if you get the idea that having been through the good times and the bad times and the bad times being 90% of them money, that when someone says, you know, we'll pay you thousands and thousands of dollars, would you get back together to do a show. Right. We say to them, uh-huh.

And if some heavy-duty rappers down in the States say, you know, man, we want to swear on top of your song. Do you mind if we do that? We're going to pay thousands and thousands of dollars. Right. And we say, only if you speed it up so that we sound like Donald Duck. Then, you know, that's method man from the Wu-Tang clan. Okay, who I saw this summer.

Yeah. So, so, so it was like, by the time, you know, we get into the 21st century, the, you know, the days of spontaneous magic have disappeared. And along the way, the money never really appeared. So, you know, you strike when the iron's hot, as my uncle used to say. Always a good idea here. Mike, not on the live stream, but previously, I guess via WhatsApp, said,

ask Cam Hawkins about, we call you Cameron on this show, okay? He says, in 1995, he says, FM, we're putting out CD-ROM content. It sounds like you've always been kind of on the bleeding edge, like ahead of the curve when it comes to tech in the intersection of music and technology and everything. But what do you remember about, you know,

this is kind of before everybody was on the actual internet, that's the real online. CD-ROM content on CDs. Do you have any memory of FM's role in putting out CD-ROM content? Absolutely. I'm asking the right guy, aren't I? Well, the idea of being ahead of the curve

is sort of, that's where the most excitement is. That's where the most energy is. That's also the riskiest part of it. And, you know, that is a curse. It's not a blessing. But it's a hell of a lot of fun to be at. See, this is your drug of choice, right? Stupidity.

See, I actually relate on a much, much smaller scale where it is exciting to not know how something's going to work or to try something completely different where there's a possibility of it being a complete flop or not working. Like, you've got a high risk factor, but you also get your shot up. of dopamine. Yep, exactly. You're a dopamine junkie. Well, that's what the human body does. Right. You know, that's, that's, that's, uh, that's the, that's the, uh, that's the

reward. That's the happiness. Happiness is, is it better for you than heroin? Remember there was a, a game called life and you, you had stars, hearts, and dollar signs. And, uh, the stars were fame. And the dollar signs were fortune. And, uh, the happiness.

The happiness that comes from making music is a special kind of happiness. Because as I alluded to before, music is something that is part of your soul. And playing music with other people for other people is a doubling because it becomes like a quantum computer where you can have two different people. both completely different people playing music together in a sort of psychic interaction that appeals to other people, that other people see that happening.

That's really what we want to do when we come back and play together. We will not be over-rehearsed. We will not be playing note for note. We'll be exploring once again the beauty of music shared by people with people. You're ready to make that big announcement now, Cameron? The show will be in mid-January.

It will be somewhere around the middle of the month. It will be at a well-known club in Toronto. Okay. I don't want to even guess. Go to the website, the bandfm.com, all one word, dot com. Okay. And you mentioned Transformation, which was your first studio, FM's first studio album in 28 years.

Will we be blessed in 2027 with another studio album from the band FM? Well, that's not the first thing we have to do. At this time in my life, I have one objective musically, and that is to put the band together and play for people. And who knows what happens when you do that. And if it does, I have a whole bunch of new songs that I would like this band to create, the band that we're bringing to the Redwood

and then the club to be named at a later date in January. We have, you know, music, the opportunities are, if the effort is made. And we're going to make that effort, and we hope the audience responds. Okay, Cameron, you're not wearing the headphones right now, but I'm playing low in the mix here. Oh, yeah, put them on.

Good. Cameron, you're probably wondering, why is Mike playing the FM cover of good vibrations? Because I just want to wish you good vibrations. I know you biked here. I'm going to get out there for a bike ride in this beautiful, beautiful weather myself. And I just want to say,

I think your Toronto mic debut was pitch perfect. Wow. Yeah, because you're an interesting guest with a tremendous legacy, like ahead of the curve, but that's exciting to me. I give you great kudos for a lot of that, okay? You've got to break some eggs and make an omelet. And you had the facts, you gave us the flavor. Is there anything, maybe on your bike ride here,

you were thinking, oh, I want to share this anecdote or this story or share this fun fact or this mind blow? And maybe it never got prompted for it didn't come up. This is your chance. Cameron Hawkins, is there anything that you were leaving on the cutting room floor? No, Mike, you know what? You are a pro at something that nobody could have even thought would ever happen back in the 1970s. And you're doing it your way and you're doing it with your means.

And that's really that, to make that connection, 50 years in the past, you can see that it's the love of music that makes this work. It's really, that's really what it comes down to. And love of music is something that's the best thing we can do is human beings. So much better than a lot of the other things that we think are going to make us happy that don't. So I am very appreciative of the opportunity to be on my first podcast. Wait, not just your first episode of Toronto, Mike. Is this your first episode of any podcast? Yes.

You know, okay. That's a mind blow right there. Honestly, Cameron, I'm so honored you did it here. Thank you, Jeff Rogers, for maybe pushing you in this direction. Yes. Well, you know you're doing something right when things happen. Geez, I'm all choked up over here. Two quick notes, though, before I end that us,

Mike again says, fantastic. He goes, loved this. I met Cameron briefly at Nash's wake in 2014, but not in the bathroom. Okay, so what was your relationship like with Nash when he passed away in 2014? Well, I would say it was friends. friendly, he had pretty much retired. He'd walked away from it. And you know what? I even did a

crazy thing. I left the music, the music full-time business, if you like, in the 90s. And I started up a website development company. So I sort of, I took everything that I'd learned of surviving in the music world, which brought its own rewards to a business venture. And what I found was it doesn't really change you. It's everything that you bring, it's going to be the people that you work with. So I've learned a lot from the music business and I brought it to another business, which lasted a good 20 years. And so I was ahead of my time at the right time there. Well said. And Jeremy Hopkins,

the official Toronto historian of the Toronto Mike podcast, points out that you are episode 1998, one of the great episodes of the first 2000 episodes. And he points out, I think this is a delightful fun fact that Jeremy is pointing out here.

He says, in 1998, Nash the Slash performed as part of Toronto's Pride Week, where he publicly acknowledged that he was gay. So another milestone happening in this great city in the year

1998. There you go. Thank you, Jeremy. And that brings us to the end of our 1,998th show. We've got some rush again. It's all about rush on this program. Go to Torontomike.com for all your Toronto Mike needs and much love to all who made this possible. Again, that's Great Lakes Brewery.

Cameron's got his fresh craft beer. Palmapasta, you got a lasagna in my freezer upstairs. Nick Aienies, Recycle My Electronics.C.A. and Ridley Funeral Home, you got your flashlight slash bottle opener slash measuring tape. I'm dying to try it out. Oh, all right, I'm going to let Brad know. You've got a similar sense of humor to him. See you all tomorrow for episode.

No, not tomorrow. Thursday, episode 1999. It's Ed Keenan from the Toronto Star. Apparently there's an election on Monday. We have plenty to talk about. Don't miss, 1999.