Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - Canadian Punk: Toronto Mike'd #953

Episode Date: November 24, 2021

In this episode of The Progressing Past of Modern Melodies, Toronto Mike, Brother Bill and Cam Gordon chat with special guest Ralph Alfonso about the origins of punk in Canada.

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pillars of the community since 1921. And Mike Majeski of Remax Specialists Majeski Group, who's ripping up the GTA real estate scene. Learn more at realestatelove.ca. I'm Mike from torontomike.com, and this is the second edition of our Toronto Mike sub-series Progressive Past of Modern Melodies As usual, I'm joined by Brother Bill and Cam Gordon

How are you guys doing? Pretty good, pretty good Mike Good to be back Good to be back Brother Bill, how are you doing? You staying dry on the West Coast? Yes, we are currently staying dry. A nice sunny day here in Vancouver. Another what they call, I can't remember what it's called now, atmospheric river on its way tonight into tomorrow. We're hoping that the flooding doesn't continue, but I'm fine.

Well, as long as you're fine, I do follow what's happening at West and it sounds pretty frightening. And really all the FOTMs just want to make sure that both brother Bill and captain Phil Evans stay safe. So that's all we ask. We're both on higher ground. so we're just fine here. If you decide to build an old lake bed and you get a lot of water, the result is Chilliwack and Abbotsford right now.

So we wish them well, obviously, but they've got some tough times ahead and the Coquihalla will not be rebuilt for at least a couple of years, they're now saying, and that's a key route in and out of the lower mainland so tough times ahead for this uh this province but uh we've got good leadership on the provincial front and i'm confident everything will get sorted eventually now higher ground that's of course that's a stevie wonder jam even though i consider it a Red Hot Chili Peppers jam. Ha ha. But this week, the second edition of Progressive Past of Modern Melodies, we're going to dive deep into the history of punk in Canada.

And I've scoured the country in search of the ideal guest to help us along. And all roads lead to this man, Ralph Alfonso. Hello, Ralph. How are you? man, Ralph Alfonso. Hello, Ralph. How are you? No, nice to meet you. Let me just start by telling you that Rob Pruce, who was my guest yesterday, he says hello to you. Yes.

And how do you know Rob? You worked with him? Well, I'll cut it short. When The Spoons first started out uh they were the opening act for the diodes which is the band that i managed and still manage and i i and and i remember the first gig with us they they unfortunately what happens sometimes when you're an opening act is you don't get a sound check that's just the way it is and uh i i remember having a chat with them trying to reassure them everything will be okay i just i'm really sorry you couldn't get a sound check. That's just the way it is. And, uh, I, I remember having a chat with them, trying to reassure them. Everything will be okay. I just, I'm really sorry. You can get a sound check. And anyway,

they ended up stealing our sound man and stuff. And, uh, and then years later, uh, when I was, uh, co-managing honeymoon suite, he was the keyboard player. Wow. And, and we, we would share rooms on the road. Sweet guy, super nice guy, and very talented, obviously. And you know, when he joined the Spoons, he was only 15 years old. Yeah. Unbelievable.

Prodigy. Exactly. Okay. By the way, that doesn't sound like a good matchup, the Spoons and the Diodes, but we'll get into that maybe later. It's the 80s. You know, everything kind of works in the 80s. The 90s kind of screwed everything up,

but in the 70s and 80s, everything was possible. Good point. Good point. That's the first point. Rob Pruce is high. And then the second point is that I need to thank FOTM, Jason Schneider for the connect here. So thank you to Jason.

He connected us, Ralph. Another rare nut to have. I only talk to nice people. You should know that. Okay. And finally, for those unfamiliar with the great Ralph Alfonso, you gave us a taste there, but can you give us a little more of your extensive bio?

I mean, you literally wrote the book on today's topic. Yes, and I published it too. It's called Treat Me Like Dirt. And it's the comprehensive history of Toronto punk written by Liz Wirth. And I published it. And then I couldn't control it. It was so popular. I licensed it out to ECW Books. And it's still in print almost 10 years later. to ECW Books. And it's still in print almost 10 years later. And it's very good. So I started off as a rock writer photographer in 76.

One of my, I was kind of, it was a magazine called Cheap Thrills in Toronto. And I was kind of their punk guy. And they would send me out to interview the Ramones and Patti Smiths. And they sent me, they gave me a hundred bucks and sent me to New York and I totally lucked out I got to see the first damned gig in North America and the opening act was the dead boys whom I thought were way better than the damned but so be it and then one of assignments, I wanted to see what was going on in Toronto. So I ended up having an interview with the Diodes,

who had just started out with the singer, which became this four-hour interview in which he then, at the end of it, proceeded to connive me into becoming their manager and running Canada's first punk club, which was called the crash and burn, which lasted all of two or three months before we were kicked out. And then, so at the,

at the same time, while I was managing the diodes, we became the first punk band signed to a major label, which was CBS at the time. And we got released in Europe. And the Americans at CBS America at the time was not into punk, and they refused to release The Clash, The Diodes, all kinds of stuff. It was very bizarre.

After that, I got scooped up by Attic Records in Toronto, where I'm the guy, if you hear Walking on Sunshine on the radio, it's all my fault. And a special, you know, it's my revenge to all the radio stations that said no to that song, and now they have to play it forever. Ever and ever. Hang on, what's the story there? Were you the publicist or what were you doing for Attic?

I was the publicist, yes, but also, again, I was their punk guy. And Katrina and the Waves were just this nothing bar band from Cambridge, England, but the guitar player was Kimberly Rue, who had been in the Soft Boys, which we had released. And so when they put this record out, he kind of went, let's send it to Attic Records. You never know, right? So it showed up and my boss gave it to me right away. He goes, you might like this. It's got Kimberly Rue on it.

And so there was this one song, which was at the end of side one called walking on sunshine so i kept playing it all day in my office and and they're like well i guess i guess we're putting this record out and i was also doing radio promo at the time so i thought that was a hit it wasn't the version that we all know it didn't have the horns on it yet but it was still like a great song is a great song so i pushed that at canadian radio for almost a year uh and then magic happened the bangles covered uh going down to liverpool and then everybody wanted to know who these katrine and the waves people were and then they got signed and then that they added horns and that song became huge and um i mean everybody loves it i mean it's everywhere

it's on movie soundtracks commercials every trailer in the world has it right uh And so that was me. And then while I was at Attic, I also worked with Anvil, Lee Aaron, Triumph. Who else was on there? Plastic Bertrand, who had a huge, massive hit in Quebec with a song called Stop Wonka, which was sort of a disco thing. And I went on tour with him. Like, he's a funny guy. It was later discovered that he did not sing on his own records,

which I sort of knew at the time, but he sang live. He was a fine singer. It was just, I guess, the weird deal, record deal that he had. He wasn't allowed to sing on his records. It was the producer that, that sang on them. And then after that, I, I got, I wanted to see what the American market was all about. So I was co-managing honeymoon suite and went through Warner us.

So I got to see how that whole American thing worked. And then I got scooped up by Warner Canada. So I was in charge of all the Canadian artists, so Frozen Ghost, Blue Rodeo, Ian Thomas. Wow. I don't know, you know, whoever they had, I forget. And then Capital Records Canada came after me and then I became their Canadian guy. So Glass Tiger, Luba, Corey Hart, Heartland Brothers, you know.

Wow. And then I kind of got tired of the whole corporate rock thing. The thing is, the higher up you go, the sort of less fun it is you know it's it you got you got to watch your back you got to i i kind of had this long distance affair with this girl living in vancouver and i thought you know what the hell so i gave everything up and i moved to vancouver and then i found out this girl was kind of a crazy sort of woman and so now I'm stuck in Vancouver I can't go back because I've spent all my money moving and I ended up working at Network which at the time was was this groovy Vancouver label so I ended up in the art department and I became one of their senior art directors and also

in charge of all their production so I was the guy that got cds made and stuff and and which then created a whole other alternate career as as a graphic. So I designed album covers for Blue Rodeo, Platinum Blonde, Colin James. Anyway, there's like 300 things that I've done. If you go on Discogs, it's like, woo. Well, I was just about to say, but other than this, Ralph, I was going to say, but other than this, Ralph, what have you done? At the same time, I was going to say, but other than this, Ralph, what have you done?

I could also talk about my career as a beat poet performer, but that's a whole other podcast. We'll bring you back for that episode when we do our beat poetry episode, which is coming soon. But let me just interrupt you, Ralph. Needless to say, I had my 15 minutes, and it was fun. Cam Gordon, I turn to you. Do you think, you've just heard the last, I think, 90 minutes we heard about Ralph's credentials here. Do you think this is a good guest? Do you think he was there?

Is he going to be fine for a Canadian Punk episode? I'll say this, Mike, and if you could get ready to do a screen cap, this is going to be a big moment because this is an audio podcast but look what I've oh I actually have the book oh there you go treat me like dirt which is sort of my relationship on the Toronto

Mike podcast because Mike treats me by DM just kidding great read also I used to work alongside Liz Worth a little bit at um the spill magazine if you remember the spill which is still around and liz i believe is now like a tarot card reader i feel like am i right um but yeah i'll just say this book's incredible i like the level of detail in here,

look at that. There's a lot of words. This is a real archive of a really special time. Fantastic. That was a bitch to design because it was so much. I had to use all the tricks,

like two columns and all kinds of stuff. But you know what? I'm extremely proud of it. It's not the definitive, definitive work, but it's pretty damn close. It reminds me a lot of the book, Please Kill Me by Lex McNeil and Friends.

I mean, definitely like the Canadian equivalent and just, again, the level of detail in some of the stories, I'm sure you'll only find them in that book. It's just awesome. I can't recommend it enough for folks who are into this. Okay. So let's dive in here.

And I'm wondering, Brother Bill, we got to start in the late 70s here, right? Like, where do we begin? Do we get a temperature check on what's going on in the world, like in the UK and the states at this time i'm curious like uh first punk bands in canada and how they were influenced from outside this country so um first of all let me just hold this book up too this was a another book that was written about the toronto hardcore scene with uh i'm sure you recognize steve from bunch Fucking Goofs on the cover of it. That was released a couple of years ago.

And there's a metal one out now too, the Toronto metal scene. I'm in the metal one. Are you? Oh, that's because of Lee Aaron and Anvil. Is that right? Oh, Anvil. And Lupa. So before we start i wanted to say ralph that that resume is more than impressive it's phenomenal to have a career like that so congratulations i

ran into karen lee about three weeks ago at my work here in british columbia she's been out here for a while she's still making music. The next time I see her, if I do, I will certainly pass on your regards if that's okay. Here's a funny story. I went on tour with Leigh-Anne. We did, believe it or not, a jazz tour across Canada. And that's how she met her husband. Her husband was my drummer, John Cody.

Before he went on the tour, he told me, he goes, I don't know about this. I don't think I want to be on this tour. Now he's married. Maybe it was a right call after all. Literally married the

metal queen. I mean, come on. Come on. Again, Cam and Bill, Cam and brother, you can interrupt and steer this as you see fit because you're the residential experts here, but we got a man who was there. Even

brother Bill was a little young in the late 70s. So maybe we start with succinctly what was happening in the world in the late 70s with regards to punk. And the big question is, I always debate with myself on these bike rides, what exactly is punk? Well, punk originally, before punk as we know it was punk, punk referred to 60s garage rock. If you go back in time

to certain magazines like Bomp magazine and stuff like that, when they're talking about punk in 1973, 74, 75 they're talking about 60s garage rock. And the British of course are the masters of packaging and they appropriated the word punk and quickly applied it to what they were doing punk music or the the roots of it actually began in new york probably 1975 because i would get all these british um music magazines like Sounds and NME, and they were constantly sending writers to New York,

and that's where I was reading about people like The Fast, Wayne County, the very, very early Ramones. Like, the Ramones started in 1975, and they didn't really refine their look and everything until maybe 76, which is when they got signed. And that spillover, because the British were broadcasting what was happening in New York, it was a very weird thing happening all around the world. It was this real, almost like ethereal, not ethereal, but it's like the same signal from somewhere was beaming out to everybody

that was different all around the world. And everybody's creating something that was, I guess you would call it proto-punk. And it all came together magically in 77. You got to remember there was no internet. There was no, it was all word of mouth. There was a fanzine called the Bomp Newsletter that Greg Shaw did in California, and he was sending that out.

I was his Toronto correspondent. So it was all word of mouth. And I guess the only constant was Rock Scene Magazine in the States, where you'd go to the back and they'd have pictures of all these new bands. And it was like, here's Patti Smith with Lenny K. So the first wave really was the Patti Smith tour when she went out and people saw that. And then what really galvanized everything was everybody in the audience

pretty much started a band right after that, you know, and the same thing happened when they went to England and everywhere is they kind of galvanized everything. And the Brits thought that the American, there you go, thought that the Americans were kind of boring in a way, right? Like, cause the British, they're enamored of costume. They see these great pictures of Richard Hell and the Ramones and everything.

And then when they actually see them live, they were like, hmm, we got to spruce this up a little bit. So the Brits sped everything up, they fashionized it, and they created what we now know as punk, right? And they kind of, just like the 60s bands sold us back on our own music, so did the punks. They kind of gave punk back to us. And then the Pistols, of course, became the face of punk. And then now there's a uniform. There's a specific style.

There's a color scheme. Everything is now created you know Malcolm McLaren the pistols manager was partly responsible for that and so but anyway it doesn't matter that the bomb had gone off so every city in America now had a scene so the dials were the first ones out of the gate in Toronto, followed by the vile tones. And then teenage head came in from Hamilton and there's, you know,

6 million other baby bands. But in the meantime, over in Vancouver, of course, you've got this cable TV show that that's bringing all these bands in. So actually Vancouver has better documentation than Toronto because you had, you had a, you, you had a cable, I forget the guy's name now. Um, but he brought all the bands in and there's, there's video documentation of just about all the Vancouver bands.

You also had Bob rock who was an engineer at little mountain Sound and he he would bring all these bands in from midnight till you know till six and record them and I got a lot of those recordings at the time going and and I was always going wow who's this Bob Rock guy man these these records are amazing especially the dills that he did um uh so to me 77 was a magic time because everything went, you know what I mean? Like there was no categories or subcategories yet. You pretty much could do whatever you wanted. By 78, you had this whole new wave thing, and then the original punk seemed very dated and old all of a sudden. When I got to England in 79, it was already over. We're kind of losing the whole...

Yeah, Ralph, we got a little robotic voice happening. The whole new wave, new romantic thing was about... Hey, Ralph, I'm going to make a suggestion. Ralph, can you hear me? A very brief flash of power pop. was about. Hey, Ralph, I'm going to make a suggestion. Ralph, can you hear me? A very brief flash of power pop. These sort of guys and new romantics took over and then you got into goth and all that stuff.

Sorry about that. No prob. Your internet was... Oh, I see. One second. Okay, we're going to improve your internet even if it means killing your video for the sake of your audio. Let me throw something in here, Mike, if I may.

Yeah, don't let me talk. So, I mean, Ralph obviously was there. So, I mean, I can only speak for what I've always been told about the early days of punk rock. And that's from the British perspective. Malcolm McLaren owned a shop on King's Road in Chelsea called Sex, along with Vivian Westwood. Malcolm went to New York and got into the New York Dolls,

seeing them, who took influence from the likes of David Bowie, etc. And the Stones and things like that. And he took that back to the fashion side and all that. He took it back to the UK and, you know, created this band called the Sex Pistols, if you want to word it that way, which are essentially where there's just these four boys that he put together and started a band with as their manager. And, you know, as far as the UK scene went, the rest was history. They did a famous show in Manchester, England, where members of the Smiths,

Buzzcocks and numerous other bands all formed because of this one show. And I guess what was happening, Ralph, in New York and all over the world, too, thanks to bands like the Ramones, they would come to town. And like you say, 16, 20, 100 bands would start. Yeah. I mean, yeah. I know the Buzzcocks started because of that show. Joy Division?

Yeah. So between the Ramones and the Sex Pistols, you know, they galvanized a whole movement. I mean, the sad part of it is, of course, that the Ramones got left behind because they stayed put. There was no, I mean, the records technically got better. The sound got better, but the Ramones just stayed the same. You know what I mean?

It was this formula, this constant. Sorry, I'm trying to hide that. It's okay. But the Ramones, though, were one of these bands we mentioned, too, like playing with weird bands, playing together. The Ramones would though, were one of these bands we mentioned, too, like playing with weird bands, playing together. The Ramones wouldn't play with anybody. So they played some shows with, like, you know, I don't even know, like some of these big hair metal bands of the 1970s, if you will,

who just were not, the crowds were not going to be Ramones fans, but they just kept playing and playing wherever they could. And eventually the masses came to them but unfortunately they were all dead by then yeah i think they played at the usa festival like one of those iterations with like van halen and all those bands i feel like there's video and it was like two in the afternoon or something um ralph I ask you a very specific question? I'm curious another great

Canadian punk rock book is I, Shithead by Joey Shithead Keithley. I'm curious like Toronto Punk 1977 famously The Skulls Come to Town from Vancouver,

featuring Joey, the proto-DOA. At that time, was there much cross-pollination between what was happening in Toronto and Vancouver, or even Montreal? Because from what I understand, and from reading the book, it seems like Toronto is very much its own microcosm, with the possible exception of the Hamilton bands, which is sort of, you know, GTA. No cross-pollination.

I actually met Joe when he came to Toronto. He tried to crash a Diodes gig, like he wanted to get on the bill. And this is when he had, oh, I forget what his band was called, The Skulls. Skulls, yeah, with Wimpy. And I said, well, no, that's not how it works. I mean, you can't just show up and we'll put you on the bill. But anyway, we were sitting backstage, and I said,

I don't understand, why would you come all the way to Toronto when there's all this amazing stuff going on in LA. And, and he goes, yeah, I thought about that on the plane. But, but anyway,

Joe's super nice guy actually helped him get that, that book deal. I introduced him to the people at Anvil press. Okay. And that worked out very well for him. I introduced him to the people at Anvil Press. Okay. And that worked out very well for him. Well, for those who don't. No, go ahead, Ralph.

Sorry. No, the skulls, they were a blip. I mean, they came in, they hung around, they put out a fanzine where they kind of dissed everybody, especially the diodes. And then they went back. I guess one guy ended up in pill, right, I think. I could be wrong. I don't know.

I'm not sure. Subhumans. Subhumans. Yeah, wimpy subhumans. Yeah, the skulls, whatever, you know, nothing happened. But I think it was a good experience for them.

They got to see, like they sort of came in at the tail end of the Toronto scene. There was this kind of wasteland time, like the end of 79, beginning of 1980. You know, I call it the crossover period. That's when hardcore sort of came in. Well, actually, no, not yet. Too early for hardcore. 81 would have been hardcore because DOA coined the phrase hardcore on their Hardcore 81 album. That's it. That's it.

Gentlemen. Joe had his revenge. Joe had his revenge in Toronto. Gentlemen. Did he ever. Let's focus at this time, let's focus on the Toronto punk scene. This is Toronto Mike.

We have a Toronto focus. We will talk about Hamilton and West and everything, but it's a big three, and again, I'm here to be educated. I got the right three guys on the Zoom with me, but is it Viol Tones, Diodes, and Demix? Is that your core three in terms of the

Toronto scene? Demix are from London. Demix were from London. They had one hit, one hit, and that was it. New York City. But what a hit. It was... Yeah. I'm getting pretty bored And I wanna get out

I'm getting pretty angry man and it's no good to shout Will I catch a bus or will I catch a train? I need help now baby, cause I'm going insane I wanna go to New York City Cause they tell me it's a place To be I wanna go to New York City I just know that it's a place

For me Yeah I'm getting pretty tired Of going downtown You know the same trip every day I'm going downtown You know the same trip every day It's kind of bringing me down Will I get out? Will I wonder how? I gotta get it moving, man

I gotta move it right now I wanna go to New York City Cause they tell me it's the place to be I wanna go to New York City I just know that it's the place for me I'm getting pretty tired And I wanna get out I'm getting pretty angry, man And it's no good to shout I'm getting fucking pissed off, you know, I'm tired of going downtown

You know the same trip every day, it's kind of bringing me down It's kind of bringing me down I wanna go to New York City Cause they told me it's the place of me I wanna go to New York City I just know that it's the place for me I wanna go to New York City Cause they tell me it's a nice city Oh, I wanna go to New York City

I just know that it's a place for me It was basically the diodes, Vile Tones, Teenage Hit. That was it. Okay. And then it kind of filtered down. There was, you know, there's guys like the Mods and the Poles. And like from within the Toronto scene, like, that, oh, Johnny and the G-Ray is very underrated. Not quite punk, but they were part of that scene.

I mean, of the three, only two had record deals. the three, only two had record deals. I mean, the Diodes had Sony or CBS, which lasted one album, and then they got dropped, and then the Red Rubber Bog started getting airplay in the States, and CBS sort of went, oh, wait, don't we have an album by these guys in the can? So they called us up and said, well, we know we dropped you and everything, but would you consider re-signing with us?

And we said, oh, we'll think about it, you know, we'll help you promote this album. In the meantime, we signed another record deal and Teenage Head ended up with a weird disco label, and then they ended up on Attic Records, where I was working. And the Violetones were the odd man out. All they had really was their single, and then in the 80s or 90s, they managed to put together a compilation of tracks that were sort of around.

And the problem is, of course, I mean, what record label is going to sign a guy called Nazi Dog, right, especially in 1977, which is the funny part of that whole Treat Me Like Dirt book. It's like every band is complaining that, you know, why did the diodes get signed and not my band and all this stuff. And, you know, it's just, you know. Well, a combination of factors, I'd say, Ralph,

I'd say that the Diodes had more of a friendlier sound than Vile Tones did. They had, may I say, a little more talent than the average punk rock band, I'll say. You know, and they put out, I mean, CFNY, I worked at CFNY for 16 years. I started in 1988. And I remember the Diodes were always one of the more liked punk rock bands of that era, given the fact that they did have that kind of poppy sound that would

kind of cross over. I'm tired of waking, I'm tired Waking up tired Yeah, waking up tired I'm tired of waking, I'm tired Waking up tired Yeah, waking up tired Too much time to kill, it's killing me Talk like an explosion

Walk like heart attack Generate emotion After midnight I light it in a grand mission Make them see the light I'm tired of waking up tired Waking up tired Yeah, waking up tired I'm tired of waking up tired

Waking up tired Yeah, waking up tired Too much time to kill, it's killing me I look like a target I'm pointing like a gun Plotting out my movements I'm on the run Time's all put stuff, it's running out

To turn it all around I'm tired of waking, I'm tired Waking up tired Yeah, waking up tired I'm tired of waking, I'm tired Waking up tired, yeah waking up tired, I'm tired Waking up tired, waking up tired, yeah waking up tired Too much time to kill, it's killing me I'm tired of waking, I'm tired Waking, I'm tired

Yeah, waking, I'm tired I up tired. Yeah, waking up tired. I'm tired. Waking up tired. Waking up tired. Yeah, waking up tired. Now, you mentioned Teenage Head, and Teenage Head to me was never a punk band. I know they were in the early days, but I never considered them a punk band. When I was growing up, Teenage Head was getting played on Q107,

when I was growing up, Teenage Head was getting played on Q107 and we're playing all the high schools and had a big following of the rockers that used to like to beat me up in school being a punk rocker. So, you know, so the Teenage Head thing caught me by surprise. I watched your video on YouTube where you were being interviewed in 2020 and you talk a lot about Teenage Head and knowing those guys and and how you know life was tough for them because they never got the the comeuppance they probably deserved but again with the exception of their first album I never looked at them as a as a punk rock band I wonder if you could speak about that a little bit yeah well they're not really, they got limp.

They got lumped into that because like I said, at the time, 77, it was anything goes. I mean, their influences are directly from, um, the flaming rubies,

New York dolls, uh, Chuck Berry, like Eddie Cochran, uh, Stooges, maybe a little bit. A little bit. Oh, for sure. The Stooges maybe a little bit?

For sure the Stooges. And when you saw Frankie Venom live, I mean, the guy, it's incredible. It's like the best of Gene Vincent and Iggy Pop, you know. And I think that's the reason they, like of all those three, they transcended them all because they were able to cut through with, it's kind of basically, it's basic rock and roll is what they were doing. You know, it's kind of blues rock, little diddly rock type stuff. I'll open up, I'll pop you that beer I'll move your ass all night here Well, I guess you know I need somebody How about you? I trust you can find a degree Come on, Jay Oh, well, that's Jay

Come on, Jay Yeah, baby, Jake Oh, well, you can't dance Can't give up the beat Well, that's because You got size to beat Well, don't make me run, well don't make me flush You're too bad girl, I hate to touch Come on change, you better be changed

Come on change, we're the changed Come on, let's rock Hey, goodbye, goodbye, go Go, hey, yeah Well, every time I do this dance Hey, when it's your game Well, don't scream, dig a pants I just want you I just want us

I just want a glance And I just die So dig a dig Dig a dig Come on, dig a dig Yeah, I'm thinking of you today Goodbye Goodbye Goodbye

Goodbye Goodbye Goodbye Goodbye Goodbye Goodbye Goodbye Goodbye Goodbye Cynhyrchu'r ffordd y byddwn i'n ei wneud. Whereas the Diodes were very specific punkish pop,

I mean, they eventually evolved into a kind of cheap trick metal pop band, but the beauty of Teenage Head is they were able to transcend all that and cut through all that. I mean, where they failed is they had, you know, management problems. They had kind of a bit of a bad, I mean, on the one hand, bit of a bad, I mean, on the one hand, their manager was a genius, um, and that he catapulted them into the stratosphere. But on the other hand, he had his, his hands in maybe too many pockets he shouldn't have. You know what I mean? Like, uh, when they got rid of him, they found out all kinds of stuff.

And he owned a record store in Hamilton too, did he not? Who am I thinking? No, that's their first first manager, Paul Kovach. They ditched him for this other guy who is the guy that caused all the problems.

So, I mean, the sad part of their story is when we were at Attic, they were on their way to New York to do a big showcase for some major record labels, and they got into this horrific, their van crashed or something, and Gord Lewis, the guitar player, was out of commission. Yeah, hospitalized.

Yeah, almost for a year. And I think he might still have, like, steel stuff in him, you know. Wow. I think it really screwed him up. So if you saw that documentary they just did, he is really screwed up. Yeah. So, so, so sorry to interrupt Rob, but out of all these people that you knew back in those days, and again, sorry to cut off the story, but of all the people you knew back in those days,

who was the most self-destructive? Oh. Well, you got Steve Leckie, Keith Whitaker from the Demics for sure. Keith Whitaker from the Demics for sure. It depends what your definition of self-destructive is. Well, I'm asking a loaded question here because I met Keith Whitaker many, many years after the fact and the Demics had just re-released their EP,

I think it was sometime in the 90s. And Keith was, frankly, a complete and utter mess. I mean, he was drinking way too much. He was hanging out with the, what's the name of that area within Toronto? I'm having a mind blank right now. We're BFG, you're from the Kensington Market. He was hanging around the bars of Kensington Market with a whole bunch of people that weren't helping him

with his lifestyle at all. And eventually it took his life. And I wondered whether you'd mentioned Keith or not, because like I said, meeting him, I was surprised at how much drinking had taken its toll with him and how little he remembered about the punk rock scene when I was asking him about it. and how little he remembered about the punk rock scene when I was asking him about it.

I think he resented the fact that he was only ever going to be known for that one song. And I think he refused to play it or refused to pander to it towards the end. And, you know, I mean, I don't know. I mean, I was long gone out of Toronto by then. I was in Vancouver at that time. Ralph, do I hear Lee Aaron in the background?

Is that her? It's warming up. Just to let you know, if this individual, if they say anything, we might pick it up just so they're warned. Millions are listening to them right now. Don't give out banking information or anything like that. It's okay. And don't let them. Yeah, go ahead, Ken.

I can move to another room. Hang on. Let me see what the power situation is on the laptop. We are going to get a view of every room in Ralph's house before this is over. Oh, no, no. This is my art gallery. Guys, guys.

Sorry, I'm doing an interview. Tell them that we're big fucking deals over here. This is the art gallery that I own in Montreal. So you've seen the back room. This is my little office with the guy with the underwear there. So Ralph, you live in Montreal now? You live in Montreal?

Yes. I'm originally from here. Okay, so you're from Montreal. You live in Montreal? Yes. I'm originally from here. Okay, so you're from Montreal. You lived in Toronto. You lived in Vancouver. Now you're back to Montreal. I left here when I was 17. I studied journalism at Sheridan College.

And then I was all set to be a sports reporter at the Burlington Post, maybe. And next thing I know, I got sucked into the punk world and the music industry. And here I am. Well, if you had to rank the cities for livability, Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, how would you rank them? Punk songs are brief. So I will also be brief. Much love to the proud sponsors of this program.

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Just put Christmas tree in the subject line. And now back to progressive past of modern melodies. I love the mall. I'm nostalgic for the mall. I mean, there's something special definitely about Montreal because you've got this whole French language thing which adds another flavor. I mean, there's a whole other um culture here which the rest of canada almost knows nothing about right which adds to i mean there's a lot of cross

colonization going on here between musicians and artists and history you know i mean it's too bad the politicians have have screwed it all up i mean mean, Montreal, when I was living here in, in the sixties, I mean, this was the cultural center of Canada. I mean, everything was here. I mean, all the head offices, the music industry head offices were pretty much here. And then in the seventies when the separatists took over. Oh, the FLQ crisis. Yeah. Everybody left in the middle of the night, you know,

they just packed the trucks and headed to Toronto, which at the time was, it was, you know, I don't know. I didn't think it was that interesting, but, uh, but by the mid seventies, Toronto, because everybody moved there from here, uh, had become the cultural center and of Canada and, you know, rightly so. And the center of the, and rightly so. And the center of the universe. Well, hey, I was going to say.

Still is. As I've learned from- Not the people from Vancouver, though. As I learned recently from going down the road, it's that Toronto is that rainbow. When I moved to Vancouver, you know. Sorry. Go ahead. Finish the story. When you moved to Vancouver, you know. Sorry? Go ahead. Finish the story.

When you moved to Vancouver. When I moved to Vancouver, I'm like, but I was a big shot in Toronto. And they're like, who gives a shit? Oh, yeah. You're in Vancouver now. I got the same welcome in 2004. I know exactly what you're saying. All right, gents.

Here's how we're going to rock and roll, okay? So I've got like certain bands we're going to kind of dive deep into. Now, you guys corrected me. The Demics is a London band. As Ralph says, one hit, you know, he seems underwhelmed by them. So we're going to talk about vial tones and diodes. Of course, Ralph, diodes are near and dear to his heart. So can we just dive a little deeper into Vile Tones and Diodes,

and then we'll talk a little bit more about some more Hamilton punk, and then we'll bring it out west and talk about some of the Vancouver punk bands. But how about the Vile Tones? Can we just dive a little deeper into the Vile Tones? So I remember them as being the first punk rock band from Toronto. That's what I remember the Vialtones as. I don't know if you'd agree with that or not, Ralph. No.

They were not. They were not. The Diodes were the first. The Diodes actually were a band in 1976. They actually played live way before the Vialtones. What the Vialtones did, which was incredibly clever,

is they walked around telling people they were a band. They had Vialtones on the back of their leather jackets, and they basically disrupted gigs and stuff, which was, I guess, an early form of agitprop.

Agitprop, yeah. Self mythology, you know what I mean? But in terms of playing, I mean, they came much later. Not much later, but, you know, a couple of months after the diodes, I mean, the diodes played at the Ontario college of art way before the vial tones ever picked up. I think, I think the reason why I always assumed the vial tones were the first is because the legendary movie about the sex pistols,

one and only North American tour was called DOA. They talked to a guy who owns a record store somewhere in the Southern US, and behind him are a bunch of punk rock singles, and it's a Vile Tones single right behind him, and he mentions them. And that's probably why I think of the Vile Tones first. And also because the Diode's got a lot of radio airplay and were signed to a major label. So I always had a tough time, again, processing them as a punk rock band. I guess maybe I was a little purist back in the day. I don't know.

But I always associated the bands like the Vile Tones as punk rock bands, whereas I looked at the diodes more of like almost a Bebe Gabor type type band kind of, yeah, I know I'm wrong. I get it, but that's, that's where I read it from. I mean, I'm also letting you know that I came into hardcore punk rock in the eighties. So the second wave of, of hardcore punk rock. So the first wave, obviously I'm just, I'm glad we're talking to you because all the stories i've been told i've already been corrected about five times and i appreciate that ralph and and but anyway

that's where where i first heard about the dot about the the the vile tones was in doa the the beauty of the vile tones is they they are steve lecky is the master of mythology. You know what I mean? Right. He has constructed this incredible mythology, and, I mean, just look at him. I mean, the guy's amazing. He looks amazing.

They've got the logos. It's a real dark culture that he's cultivated. And he's like a sponge for negativity. And it has served him well. Give me juice, give me juice, give me a feel Give me juice, give me juice, give me a feel Give me heart, give me heart, give me a feel Give me heart, give me heart, give me a feel When someone's got me falling When someone's got me lying down

Give me juice Give me juice Like the fire Gimme juice Gimme juice Gimme juice I'll scream and dance Gimme juice, gimme juice, gimme this Gimme juice, gimme juice, gimme this Give me heart, give me heart, give up this Give me this, give me this, give me this You shake me hard, shake me hard, feel our feelings You shake me hard, shake me hard, feel our feelings

Give me this Give me this Give me this Give me this You shake me hard You shake me hard You shake me hard I'll scream and crash Shake me hard, shake me hard I'm screaming fast

Gimme juice, gimme juice, gimme feel Gimme juice, gimme juice, gimme feel Shake me hard, shake me hard till I feel Shake me hard, shake me hard till I'm finished Shake me hard, shake me hard till I'm finished Wisdom, wisdom, dying spice Wisdom, wisdom, dying spice I'm fine Well, I'm gone

Give me juice Give me juice Give me juice I'm screaming And I can only admire that. Give me two Ask a man And I can only admire that. I mean, the diodes are not that. We were always a very positive force. And, you know, it's easier to like the bad guys.

And that's just the way it is, you know. You know, like when i used to go on tour you know i i would tell my musicians i go well you know we could be negative and we we would we'll get all the negative people or we can be nice we can get people bringing us cookies and stuff and um which which i would rather have and um you know so my my my fans which are mostly librarians um you know but you know but that you know i mean that's the way it is i mean i mean it's like it's like why do people go to a train wreck you know or why do people watch car uh car accidents can't turn away you can't turn away. So there is always something heroic in tragedy, in death. And you can't compete with that, you know.

And like I said, so you have the legend of Keith Whitaker. You have the legend of Steve Leckie, who is still alive. But above them all is the greater legend of Frankie Venom from Teenage Head, who was, you know, the greatest of them all, really. He was the best frontman ever, but yet completely, you know, never quite reached his potential. I mean, Teenage Head should have been playing Massey Hall. They should have been playing the Orpheum in Vancouver.

Yeah. But instead, they got sidelined to bar band status, you know, and they're being reassessed lately. I mean, I've had the privilege of designing and doing some reissue packages for them and reconnecting with the band. And it's basically Steve Mann, the bass player, who's the band archivist. And they're slowly rebuilding their legacy, you know, and it's tough, know like I mean which brings the greater tragedy of the Canadian music industry which which does not really I mean it is changing

now but but up until a few years ago there was no consideration for the past you know like you look at the British music industry and like anybody who ever farted and in music has a book out as a 25 track reissue CD happening, a box set, you know, and in Canada, you know, there's nothing, you know, the tributes are few and far between that's for sure. Like we don't like you phone up major labels and you go, you know, the tributes are few and far between that's for sure. Like we don't like you phone up major labels and you go, you know, I want to reissue blah, blah, blah. And they're like, Oh,

we don't have the tapes anymore. Or I don't know where the tapes are. Who cares about that stuff? You know? I mean, it is changing. I mean, there's, there's dedicated guys at universal now that, that are going through the vaults trying to find stuff. But, you know, by and large, you know, it's like even punk, I mean, we had to do the book. I mean, prior to Treat Me Like Dirt, any mention of punk in so-called Canadian music history books would be like a paragraph. You know, like Gino Vanellii did this and then, oh yeah, there was this kind of punk thing going on in Toronto.

But meanwhile, let's talk about Rush, you know, and it's sad. Ralph, with that in mind, I'm always curious because I first discovered the diodes in the nineties when the greatest hits, the Tired of Wake Up Tired greatest hits package came out, which was awesome. I think I knew Red Rubber Ball only. I had never even heard Tired of

Wake Up Tired. Farewell, but there's a lesson to be learned from this and I've learned it very well Well now I know you're not the only starfish in the sea If I never hear your name again, it's all the same to me And I think it's gonna be alright, yes, the worst is over now, the morning sun is shining like a red rubber ball. For you I'm just an ornament, something for your pride Always running, never caring, that's the life you live Stolen moments of your life were all you had to give And I think it's gonna be alright, yes, the world is over now, the morning sun is shining like a red rubber ball. Stories in the past, with nothing to recall, I've got my life to live, and I don't need you at all

The rollercoaster ride to is nearly at an end Five of my tickets with my kids, that's all I'm gonna spend And I think it's gonna be alright, yes, the worst is over now, the morning sun is shining like a red rubber ball. Think it's gonna be alright, yes, the worst is over now, the morning sun is shining like a red rubber ball. I'm curious, how did that come about? Because based on everything you just said, it is true. It seemed very out of steps with like what was going on at that time it took me five years of begging sony to do that yeah uh i offered to do it all i said i'll i'll remaster it i'll design it I'll give you the final everything. All you got to do is put it out.

And they kept farting around saying no. Oh, I don't know. And until finally a friend of mine got a job there and he said, wow, man, we have really fucked you around. And I said, yeah, so let's do it. And he said, go ahead. man, we have really fucked you around. And I said, yeah, so let's do it. And he said, go ahead. And so I designed it.

I wrote the liner notes. I got it remastered. We found bonus tracks, and they put it out, and it is still in print today. It never got deleted. It still sells. And I discovered much later that that was the actual inspiration for liz's worth because she got that cd and she would and and she read the liner notes and she goes wow there's this whole history of toronto music that I know nothing about. And so she started trying to find out about it,

and there was nothing there. Like, there's no books. I'm going to do it. And I remember she sent me an email, and I feel bad because I, at the time, she was like, you know, the fifth or sixth person asking me for help in doing a punk book. At the time, she was like, you know, the fifth or sixth person asking me for help and doing a punk book. And I would always be sending, you know, stuff and these books never happened.

And so what I told her is I said, look, I'd be happy to help you out, but I've just been burnt so many times. I said, you get it to a certain level and get back to me and then I'll totally help you out. And so she came back a few months later and she said, well, here's all the people I've talked to and stuff. And I said, Holy shit, this is serious. And I said, well, have you talked to any publishers or stuff like that? She goes, well, she, she did. And, and every publisher, they didn't care about Toronto. They wanted her to do a comprehensive history of Canadian punk. Right. Which I'm like, no, no, no, that's kind of, you know,

let's keep it to Toronto. And I go, how hard is it to publish a book, right? It's got to be like doing an indie record. You know, of course I was totally wrong. Doing a book is a lot of hard work. It took about a year to get it together and uh there's a lot of stuff that got edited out and um because it was just it was just too long right like like when i was getting the printing quotes back it was like oh my god um how do we get it to a workable? Because you're quoted by pages, right?

Like, so, and it's in signatures of 16 or however it is that books work. So, but, you know, I mean, it was great. The book was sold out before it came out. You know, we had the launch party for the book, and you couldn't buy the book because it was all sold out. So I think it's in its fourth printing now. Amazing. Amazing.

If that's not Leara, now that I know you're in Montreal, I'm hoping, is that Meet Sue by any chance? Is Meet Sue in the gallery? She's here. She's like a Fashion icon or something. I think she works for Elle. Don't tease me like that. I thought she was literally there. I was very excited for a moment there. Okay, so Toronto's got

diodes. This guy's here, though. Hold on. That's right. Listen, no. Glad to have you, Ralph. Here, we're going to just refocus here. So Toronto's got... You're very close to the diodes. I feel like we could have done 90 minutes on the diodes. Amazing. And the vial tones, uh, again, Demex aside, we talked about the skulls earlier, but let's talk a bit more about Hamilton because there's lots of people listening from the hammer, uh, teenage head, like when, when diodes and, uh, vial tones

and teenage head, when they go to New York city, they're basically treating teenage head as like a Toronto band, right? We know they're for Hamilton back band, New York City, they're basically treating Teenage Head as like a Toronto band, right? We know they're a Hamilton band, but they're basically lumped in with the Toronto scene, I suppose, from a New York perspective. But give us a little taste more about the Hamilton punk scene, which I hear so much about. Shout out to FOTM

Alex Pearson. You got Teenage Head, Forgotten Rebels, what's going on in the Hammer? It's your turn. Well, at the time in 77, I mean, that's all I knew was Teenage Head. There was Teenage Kicks, their little buddy band. And, I mean, there was Simply Saucers, but Simply Saucer at the time were not really on the Toronto radar. I mean, we sort of knew about them but it's

a band which is... they've actually benefited from the passage of time because in the book they got a whole giant chapter and they've finally been appreciated for what they were doing. But again, at the time in 77, 78, they weren't really major players on the scene. There's an entire book about Simply Saucer too. I forget who wrote that, but it's pretty wild. What about Forgotten Rebels? I hear so much about them.

Thanks for bringing them up. Yeah, Forgotten Rebels? I hear so much about them. Thanks for bringing them up. Yeah, Forgotten Rebels. Let's do it. I mean, they were... We lost them a little bit here, I think. So I just wanted to comment quickly on the Forgotten Rebels. So they were more of the... They kind of got trapped in between the first wave

and second wave of punk and kind of were doing their thing. I'm not an expert on them. So again, we've kind of lost them a little bit here. So I'll just finish what I was going to say. Sorry, Ralph, to cut you off there, but we're having problems with your... Brother Bill has the conch. Here's the conch to Brother Bill.

Take it away, buddy. So the Forgotten Rebels were a great band out of Hamilton featuring lead vocalist Mickey DeSattis and a guy who played drums. I always loved his name, he went by the name Al Macombo, which I thought was great and the Forgotten Rebels first album

the first song is a song that is called Bomb the Boats and Feed the Fish and we talked about this briefly with Ivor the last time when Ivor Hamilton, the music director for CFNY was with us they got themselves a bit of a reputation as being racist motherfuckers to tell you the truth Heroin, I'm surfing on heroin Can't even put a stick in it

I'm surfing on heroin I'm so drugged up, I'm so fucked up I'm surfing on heroin, yeah And then he pranked me with a chunky beat Thought the smack was so close to reach Shot a five-a-lil-all down the YPP Freaking on the sunset, now they're half happy Men are except for introducing me now

I'm surfing on heroin, yeah I'm surfing on heroin I'm surfing on heroin Get a needle, gonna stick that in I'm surfing on heroin I'm so fucked up, I'm so fucked up I'm surfing on heroin I'm so fucked up, I'm so fucked up I'm surfing on heroin, yeah So fucked up I can't remember my name

Tried it once, I'll never feel the same I'm swimming in the sea of puke Land me a water, play myself on the tube Got my good boy with me yesterday Pissing his face from my habit today, yeah I'm surfing on heroin I'm surfing on heroin I'm surfing on heroin Get a needle, got to stick it in

I'm surfing on heroin I'm surfing on heroin I'm surfing on heroin Yeah, so fucked up I can't remember my name Tired of ones I'll never feel the same I'm so happy to see you here When did I put never feel the same I'm swimming in the sea of you You're winding water, put myself on the tube Got my big brother once yesterday Living in peace in my average day, yeah

I'm surfing on your wind I'm surfing on your wind Yeah, I need a place to be I'm surfing on your wind I'm surfing right now I'm surfing right now I'm sticking on your way I'm sticking I'm sticking I'm sticking on your way I'm sticking on your way

I'm sticking on your way I'm sticking on your way I'm sticking on your way I'm sticking on your way I'm sticking on your way And they could never really shake that, which is unfortunate because that's why CFNY wouldn't play them. And if I can, I'll tell you a quick story. I was in a band years ago and we opened up for the Forgotten Rebels in Guelph

at a place called, what was the big club in the 90s in Guelph? Anybody remember? The Albion Hotel? No, that wasn't it. Oh, like Trash-a-terian? Trash-a-terian. There we go. Yeah, thanks, Dan.

So we opened up for them, and they were great guys, except for Mickey. He wasn't very nice. He had obviously been in the business for a long time. And what happens to some people, Ralph, I'm sure you can attest to this, is they get bitter and they get angry and they feel that the world owes them a career. And that's not the way it works, unfortunately. But the Forgotten Rebels. Yeah, go ahead, Ralph. I was going to say, welcome to my world when I do album reissues.

Right. Same thing, right? What do you mean stuck between? Isn't this like they're founded in 77, right? I mean, there isn't. Forgotten Rebels would be part of that first wave, I think. Well, the first album was released in 81, I think, 81 or 82. So a little, see.

Not part of the first wave. No, we mentioned. Oh yeah, In Love With The System. Yeah, it's 1980. So Ralph mentioned in his bio at the beginning that he founded a place called The Crash and Burn. And what an appropriate name that was for the first wave of punk rock because really we're talking about three years here aren't we ralph

the original punk yeah yes uh the the the roots which would be 75 the gestation which would be 76 and then the bloom which would be 77 and then the withering which would be 78 uh the end of 78 and then no man's land of 79 and then the beginning of hardcore 1980 um i mean by 79 punk was pretty much over in England. When I got there and walking around the King's Road and all that stuff, it was all, there was nothing left. It was the beginning of the really nasty punks, the guys with the... The Mohawks, the skinheads.

Exploited. Mohawks. the skinheads. Exploited. Mohawks. Well, can I take this opportunity? Because before we go out west, and I want to talk about DOA and some of these Vancouver punk bands and everything, can we speak to this? Were you there, Ralph? Were you at the Rock Against Radiation concert in 1980?

This is at Nathan Phillips Square. Were you there? No. Okay. So I only recently learned about this event, but I've been doing, like, basically, let me see here. You had DOA, Stark Naked, the Fleshtones, the Demics, the Vialtones, Joe College and the Rulers, the Forgotten Rebels.

This was quite the event that took place at Nathan Phillips Square, and it brought all these bands together from Toronto, Vancouver, and of course Hamilton, these different punk scenes. It sounds like that event sort of was your cross-pollination, if you can call it that. And I just wondered wondered being there at the

time like it didn't go well but the rock against radiation concert go ahead there was this in pro like was this in protest of like the pickering uh nuclear power plant or something what's the right so that was the idea but i mean mendelssohn joe uh was there yeah he's there making big speeches for the cause but the punk the people making big speeches for the cause, but the people who were there for the punk show and the punkers really were just looking to play a gig. They didn't really have a clue what the cause was.

They didn't care about the cause. Right, right, right. Pro-new! Pro-new! Pro-new! Pro-new! Pro-new! Pro-new! We gotta leave early today because we got another show to play. One in Hamilton at the Delta Theater. Come on down.

Come on down. And make sure you buy a house. Hey, get a load of this. New music has the guts to film this. It was a real farce. But last week's Rock Against Radiation concert at City Hall was well intended. Organizers thought it would be an anti-nuke demonstration with a difference. This was meant to be a new wave punk sort of concert in order to reach the kids who won't come out to the folk events. And you know, they're just as important as anybody

else. So you did find these bands really willing to participate because obviously they must have donated their time. Yes, they are. As a matter of fact, we've got a list of about 12 other bands that wanted to play at this event and we're going to be trying to organize other events later. Who actually put up the money for this? Well, I did and several others who, you know, just private financial backers that were hoping to recover our money from button and t-shirt sales, but

we're not going to worry too much because it's divided up. So you came just for the music? More or less, yeah. You really couldn't care less that it's an anti-nuke kind of demonstration? I didn't even know. What do you feel about nuclear energy? Do you care? Not too much. Not really. Even most of the musicians who played were only there for the music. What's happening here today? Why did you decide to participate in a Rock Against Radiation concert? Well, I don't know. It was more or less just a chance to get out and play and have some fun.

I don't know how we feel on radiation. We're not a very political band. But there were those like Mendelssohn Joe who were taking it all very seriously and doing their best to spread the anti-nuke message....with the poisoning of plants and the electricity of nuclear energy, that is therefore the cause of the death of the planet. Last Saturday, Mendelsohn Joe was on his 76th day of a 100-day fast to protest against nuclear energy. The main thing is the young people, because with most people over the age of 25, they're so apathetic. They can't conceive of the problem until the problem is at their front door. And when the problem is at their front door, they won't have any door. Joe College was one of the initial organizers of the Rock Against Radiation concert.

He was also the first to admit the event was a disaster. I think a lot of the punk and new wave bands around really do take an anti-nuclear stance against them. No, they're mostly idiots. 95% of them are total idiots. It's just like they reflect, 90% of them reflect the society they live in, right? And they don't look at if there's anything wrong, they just want to have a good time. And some of them are okay people, but they don't know too much. But what about you? What about your music? Oh, I study, so it's different. That's why I'm Joe College. But for those of the few hundred fans that showed who didn't mind the

offensive language and apathetic attitude, I guess it was still a decent afternoon of free, raunchy rock. But one thing's certain, it'll be a long time before City Hall hosts another punk party. And I just wondered, when you speak of the early days of Toronto and Hamilton and Vancouver punk scenes, what role does the Rock rock against radiation concert play? By the way, it was July 19,

1980 at Nathan Phillips square. I don't think it really mattered in the big scheme of things too much because frankly, it wasn't recorded film. It wasn't filmed. I don't think. Whereas I was going to slide into another movie that came out and, and detailed the punk scene,

I believe in the 1970s. and that was The Last Pogo, which was recorded at the Horseshoe Tavern before they were going to go back to a country and western bar. Were you at that, Ralph? No, I don't know where I was. That's the Garys, right? The Garys put that on. Yeah, I was probably working for the label then. Okay.

So quickly, from what I understand, and you can correct me if you want, Ralph, Teenage Head were supposed to headline a multi-band bill to close the Horseshoe Tavern to rock and roll and it was going to reopen as a country and western bar. And things went horribly wrong. A bunch of undercover police officers tried to shut the concert down. There was a big riot at the horseshoe. Tables were broken. People were beaten up by the police. I think Teenage Head got one song in before they were ushered off the stage as well by the police. And it's quite a

significant landmark, I think, in the first wave of punk rock and not in a great way, I think, in the first wave of punk rock, and not in a great way, I think more in a sad way, because it sort of was the beginning of the end of the punk scene, the first wave in Toronto. Ralph, would you speak to that? Yeah, I believe too, and I think the rumor is that the Vialtones were the big troublemakers there. big troublemakers there. Somebody, I forget what the actual complaint was. Maybe it might have been overcapacity or something because it's a bar. I mean, why would you send cops there? So it might have been overcapacity and then somebody lodged a complaint, which is why the cops showed up, which is a drag, I mean, because Teenage Head should have played. But, yeah, I mean, if it was 79, then, yeah,

that's the beginning of the end of that first wave. So I think it's important to mention the police as well because in the second wave of TOHC, which I was involved with, I mean, there is, I mean, he's, I mean, I'm losing him again there. Montreal's infrastructure for internet access isn't quite what we're used to. Need that 5G. Speaking of rock against radiation.

I was just briefly going to say, and I'll shut my mouth afterwards, is the police in the second wave of punk rock were not our fans at all. They would go out of their way to try and harass punk rockers any way they could. Not that I have anything against the police, but walking down the street in Brampton, Ontario, and someone yelled out fags to us, to which we responded with the fingers and throwing of cans and things like that.

And it turns out they were undercover police officers and tried to arrest us all. And we had a big incident with the police. And I was just one of my stories. But in the second wave of punk rock, the police were notorious at showing up at punk rock clubs and trying to shut them down and being real, pardon the expression, fucking assholes.

Well, this whole scene is, brother, this whole scene is quite problematic. Like when I'm watching footage, because there's footage from that show I mentioned, Rock Against against radiation i have no need to square you know there's a lot of punkers they're wearing swastikas and it's just like there's a whole like the whole i don't again i i was listening to cftr at the time okay so that's that's my excuse. Platinum blonde, here we go. But this whole intersection between white nationalism and the whole Nazi with the punk, I don't understand how that cross-section came to be.

It's vicious. Yeah, I also think, and this is more a California thing, I feel like we talked about this in the hardcore, you'd get kind of the jocks coming in and all of a sudden you'd have bands like Bill, what's that band, TSOL? Like, you know, you had kind of jocks playing music too and it's like

this guy, he could either be the linebacker or he could be the front man for TSOL. Brought a lot of violence to the scene in California, that band did. That's another story altogether when we totally know what time. So do you want That's another story altogether when we talk about time. So do you want to head West? I know we got about a,

in this last half hour segment here, I do know that Vancouver will be very mad at us if we don't dive deep into the punk scene happening at West. We have a correspondent out there right now. Brother Bill is reporting live from the scene, but let's start with DOA. And then of course, FOTM Art Bergman,

who, if we do a sequel, he wants to be a part of that. But we got to talk. So let's start with DOA. And then we'll talk about Young Canadians and some other. OK, so let me say this. DOA are one of the biggest punk rock bands of all time. They are not just a big band from vancouver right or

represented canada in the second wave of american hardcore north american hardcore doa was one of the bands along with black flag uh suicidal tendencies um the circle jerks dead kennedys were more the first wave i i i and into the second a little bit. But DOA were and still continue this day, still tour. And they did the smart thing like the Diodes did, I think. And that is they focused in not on Canada, but on the U.S. And because of population, you know, you can get a bigger fan base that way. And so DOA, yeah yeah to me is one of the biggest punk rock bands of all time Outrocked and rockin' around

Walk around, run out of town Sons of people, stoppin' around Say disco sucks, life's shit Sons of people, stoppin' around Say disco sucks, life's shit Lots of parts of people Buildin' a part of people Rock, sex, disco, sex, rock, yes Lots of toxic people Building a toxic people

Lots of toxic people Building a toxic people Disco sucks, disco sucks, disco sucks, black shit Disco sucks, disco sucks, disco sucks, black shit Disco sucks, disco sucks sucks. Disco sucks. Black shit. Disco sucks. Disco sucks. Disco sucks. Black shit. Black shit. Black shit. Black shit. Black shit. Black shit.

Black shit. Get out of the way. Ralph, what do you say about DOA? I'm not disagreeing. They've created a genre, and they, I mean, Joe is still at it. And the one thing about Joe Keithley is he has never strayed from his mission. I mean, he has taken it to his logical conclusion where he's the, is he still a city councilor in, in, in Burnaby? He is representing the green party.

Yeah. So, you know, this is a guy that he, he, he wears it on his sleeve, and you have to admire him. And, you know, there's nothing I can say. I mean, he's influenced everybody. I mean, in many ways, I guess, when they were barnstorming across the states, he probably influenced a lot of kids to take up guitars

and do stuff too you know and uh i mean and he you know and he started label i mean he introduced a lot of amazing bands into the world right uh i mean i was lucky enough when i was in vancouver to design a bunch of a bunch of the reissues of the modernettes, the young Canadians, the pointed sticks. And when they went out of print, Joe reissued them on his label, on Sudden Death, and they used my artwork, and they added extra tracks and stuff.

And I have nothing but props for what he's doing. I mean, he pioneered a props for what he's doing. I mean, he pioneered a lot, and he gave a lot of people opportunities, like a lot of the people that worked for him, like Laurie Mercer and others have gone on to really interesting careers within the music industry, but in a socially conscious way. You know what I mean? And he's a very inspiring figure, and we need more people like that. Absolutely.

It's not about the money or fame, I don't think. No. I'm actually surprised more Canadian bands didn't take their model where they did focus more on the US and Europe, two bands that come to mind NSFU is another one who I think we talked about SNFU

NSFU them two and also No Means No who I think people might argue is that a punk band oh that's a punk band. Yeah. But again, you get these West Coast bands perhaps taking cues, but to me, it's a little surprising more Canadian bands in general didn't do it.

There you go. That's a legendary punk rock album that if you're going to explore, for those who aren't watching the video portion of this, which is nobody um the audio or sorry the video ralph just held up an album called wrong by no means no and there's the dishrags who were the first all-female punk rock group from back in the day so vancouver had a a really tight scene whereas i think toronto was very competitive and again ralph maybe you can speak to this yeah the bands were competitive against each other whereas vancouver they were all for

one and one for all and the scene was very tight out here yes i i i discovered that when i when i when i moved there and i got to meet a lot of these guys. And I mean, you know, there was also this phenomenon in, in Vancouver called the fuck bands where guys from different bands would get together and create these temporary bands for, for fun, for special occasions. And I think there's, there's been a couple of compilations where there's tracks by these kind of temp. So, so if you can imagine, I guess, you know,

like guys from the pointed sticks guys from DOA and, and the modern nets get together, they call themselves something or other and they, and they record a track or two and then, or play a gig. And that's kind of, they're almost like a one-off for two or three times which which would never happen in toronto never never never um i mean even in treat treat me like dirt one of the main complaints um not so much about the book but the bands is that they're all

focused on the record deal they all like want the record deal you know and and and having had the record deal i can assure you you do not want the record deal um because i mean look what happened to the diodes i mean here we are it's you know 40 50 years later uh we do not own those masters. We will never own those masters. We will probably never, ever get them back, you know, and anytime anybody wants to reissue anything, you have to go over and beg the record company and they may decide, you know what, it's not worth it.

We don't want to reissue it. We don't want to license it out sorry yeah sue me i mean um i mean but now it's fine i mean i mean i'm not sony is is actually fine with us but during the 80s and 90s you know it was tough so i think the people that stayed independent the people that retained control of their music are the ones that are benefiting now because there's this whole um archaeology i call it art or out there rediscovering uh some of these bands especially the more obscure the band is the better and

giving opportunities to some of these people like you know like guys that maybe they're only known for one single suddenly now you can buy a whole album of previously unreleased tracks with liner notes.

There's a label in Victoria doing all that. Their record store, I forget what they're called, but doing exceptional work. And it's not the older guys doing it. It's the 20- and 30-year year olds that are keeping the heritage and the music alive, you know, and, and, um, which I think is a good thing. I mean, we need that. Earlier. Sorry. Uh,

I don't even know which gentleman I was speaking over there, but I, let me, I'll be very brief here to say that, uh, we talked about, uh, Joey shithead Keith Lee and, uh, sudden death records, which was his record label and still is so DOA of course released by Sudden Death Records but a couple of other bands I just hope you'll share

a little bit more about these two bands Pointed Sticks you mentioned earlier and Young Canadians just so I get a little bit a better taste of this Vancouver punk scene of the time. So Pointed Sticks and Young Canadians. Pointed Sticks were kind of the penultimate power pop, power punk.

They weren't really punk. They were more power pop. Yeah. And their singles are fantastic. Their one album, I love that album. I played it to death. It was produced by Bob Rock. It's just incredible songs.

Wasn't a member of Pointed Sticks, didn't he go on to work at the CBC? I can't remember his name. Does that not ring a bell? Peter Mansbridge Ian Hanomansing no no no he was a radio guy I'm sorry I'm just radio geeking a little bit no

that's the guy from you jerks oh correct David Wisdom oh my god that's right there we go he was a big deal Nightlines Thank you. Oh, my God. Yeah, that's right. There we go. He was a big deal. Sure.

Nightlines. Nightlines, yeah. Nightlines, that was an incredibly influential show. I was lucky to have been a guest on that show. And the guy, amazing, amazing knowledge. Here's a funny story. So I did an appearance on his show where he, he, you, you get to play all like a, forget what, what it's called, but you get to play a half hour of records you bring in. Right. So I did that anyway, two, two years later, I'm, I'm, uh, tracking a package on,

on air Canada cargo. Okay. I'm talking to some guy talking to some guy, and I had to give him my name. I go, it's Ralph Alfonso, you know, Network Records. He goes, wait, Ralph Alfonso, were you on Nightlines? I go, yeah. He goes, I didn't like the music you were playing. So I'm like, just the power of that show. I mean, like like two years later some guy at Air Canada Cargo you know and uh I mean but but this is the beauty of Vancouver because it was so removed from from thank god for the mountains um it was so disconnected from the Toronto bullshit at the time that all these

bands were able to, to flower and flourish without any interference from the Canadian, the so-called Canadian music industry. So you had this incredible self-contained subculture happening, you know, and instead of going east, they all went south. So that's why, like, DOA, the modernists, they all went to San Francisco and L.A.

and were able to make a lot more noise through America than if they would have gone to Toronto. And geographically, it just made more sense. They saved more gas. Yeah. There's a great book. More places to play, too. Yeah.

There's a great book that John Armstrong, Buck Cherry from the Modernettes wrote called Guilty of Everything, which is really good if you can find it. He talks about that whole scene, you know, exactly that where they hung out with Art. They all hung together, you know, the band houses, you know, Art Bergman and them. And then, you know, the Young Canadians were like this kind of punk power trio. They had their big hit, you know, let's go to fucking Hawaii.

And very influential. I mean, Art obviously went on to greater things. I mean, he's put out some fantastic albums. I guess he would be the thinking man's punk. out some fantastic albums i guess he would be the thinking man's punk um and then the modernets that one ep i mean it's like incredible songs um confidential and then barbara you know the the video that we saw in toronto was barbara where they're in the classroom right but again you know like the secret sauce behind a lot of those records was Bob Rock you know who was bringing them in on his own time at Little Mountain Sound so all these records sounded amazing you know when you when you compare

them to the Toronto records you know there was no Toronto Bob Rock sprinkling, you know, magic on these songs. It was, again, it was every man for himself. But in Vancouver, it was every man against the man. Toronto, you know, you were able to get this, this incredible music and which has been preserved and it's being reissued constantly. And I'm trying to think who else, but I think those were the big three, right. That was the modern nets, pointed sticks, DOA.

Later there was the subhumans day glow abortions things like that no means no I think it's all very I think it's suggested the first ever Canadian punk rock song was a Vancouver band

called the Furies what do you want me to be if you're familiar with that, I've seen, I remember Alan Cross mentioning this on Ongoing History of New Music. He did like a one hour thing. Never heard of it. Yeah, it's out there, but it's like 1975.

I thought we'd established already that the fucking Diodes were the first Canadian punk rock band. Get with it, Cam. I don't know. I'm just saying. I googled it. The Furies. Check it out. Well, in some quarters,

apparently it's Da Slime from Newfoundland who were the first. Oh, I've heard this. I feel like we could do an episode on proto-punk bands if we want to talk about like the Ugly Ducklings and

the Stooges and keep going from there I'm saying Canadian Ugly Ducklings Can I ask Neil let's cross pollinate with our last episode of our show here did Art Bergman get many spins on CFNY during your tenure?

Aside from Bound for Vegas, I think was a radio hit. Were the other songs, because he had a shitload of pretty cool singles. Yeah, so Art, after he left the Young Canadians, ended up signing with Duke Street Records, which was a Toronto label, and got John Cale from the velvet underground, I believe.

Yeah. Come in and produce his album. And we, we, we cover art, covered this when he talked to Mike. Yes, indeed.

That deep dive. So Chris Wardman, who lives out here now, who was in blue Peter brought art, his sound back, basically, more of that rock sound. So to answer your question, The Edge did indeed play Bound for Vegas, and then we played him when he signed with Sony,

and I can't remember the name of the song, but we played three or four songs by Art Bergman, yeah, in regular rotation. I always fought for him. When I moved out here to see Fox for 10 years, I did a show called The 90s at Noon, and I was always throwing in Art Bergman tunes because I just think that Art never really got the love he deserved

out in Vancouver, especially by the time 2004 had arrived. So I used to play like Dirge No. I think it's called Dirge No. 1 or Dirge No. 4 from Sexual Roulette, his, his i guess second solo album uh i played a few songs and uh and i used to i used to get quite the compliments from people that knew art through the punk rock community or just they were friends of the family and they would call me and say you're the only guy who continues to represent like guys like art bergman on the radio and they would call me and say, you're the only guy who continues to represent like guys like Art Bergman on the radio. And we appreciate it. So it made me feel pretty good about that.

So to answer your question, no cameo, we played. Yeah. It's, it's so weird because, uh, well, a couple of things. One, yeah. I remember listening to Mike's episode with him, how much he disliked John Kale's production on some of those singles. I think of that, there was that was that song, I think it's called Our Little Secret or something. Yeah. Sounds like Huey Lewis.

It's got the backing vocals and the slick video and stuff. Cam, I don't know. I love that album. I know Art hated it, but I love that album. Yeah. The songs were great. Yeah, well, that's the thing. The songs are undeniably awesome.

And there's multiple singles, too. But the production sounds of its era, like a lot of stuff does, I suppose. So I can understand that. I have a funny story about Art Bergman. When I was working at Network, not myself, but my boss was designing Art's album cover for Sony. And I remember we were warned by the Sony rep, if Art came into the office, not to give him any CDs,

because he would turn around and sell them. For drugs. And then at one point, yeah, and at one point we had to send uh at one point art was in rehab and we had to send the cover artwork for his approval over to rehab to his rehab place for him to look at so i think that whole sony period might have been a bit of a dark cloud. It's gonna fuck until he's dead Lounge on the beach Those little girls are such a treat Strange with the native beat Running from the rain Thousands on the run

Making like the rich Dead for the fun Two-way air Economy air 747 Chair to the roof Work all summer Save my money so I can make a run.

Let's go to fuckin' Miami, lounge along the beach. I got my little keeper F.E.G., cheaper than a Georgia peach. Runnin' from the rain, thousands on the run. Thinkin' like a rich, headin' for the fun. Let's go to fuckin' Las Vegas Throw a one in the sun We're outside 24 hours a day Before I'm back runnin' with guns

Runnin' from the rain Baskin' on the run Make it like the rich Headin' for the fun Cheap way air, economy air 747, jam to the roo Work all summer, save my money so I can be one. Let's go to fucking Hawaii.

Let's go to fucking Hawaii. Running from the rain, thousands on the run. Making liquor rich, heading for the fun. Ralph, if you know Art, then chances are you know his manager, Frank. Did you ever meet Frank? Oh, yeah. Frank Whiteford. What was his last name?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Super nice guy. So Frank used to tell me stories about Art, and I tried to ask a question via mic when you had the deep dive and he got really angry at that question and it involved his drug use. Art to me is a very lucky man to be alive today given the fact that he was addicted to heroin for many years and he would steal from his own manager, his own family to support his habit and that's what a lot of heroin addicts unfortunately do. But that's another entire side of conversation regarding Vancouver and the underside that you just don't see in any other North American city. And that is the drug culture here. It's ridiculous.

Oh, I was there recently and you're absolutely right. I mean, bodies littered on the streets, essentially. Is it East Hastings? Is that the neighborhood? bodies littered on the streets, essentially. Is it East Hastings? Is that the neighborhood? Hastings in Maine, East Vancouver. Yeah. We have two pandemics in Vancouver.

And again, we're kind of getting off topic here, but we have two pandemics. We have the COVID problem and we have drugs. People are dying here at an alarming rate, at an unbelievable rate for 2021. And without getting too much on my pedestal here, I'll just say until we legalize hard drugs, people are going to continue to die. And Vancouver is the epicenter for shitty drugs. Is it fentanyl, right?

There's basically fentanyl is, yes. We all know what happens to your heart when you- there is no heroin on the streets anymore, Mike, it's all fentanyl and it's deadly. It's, it's, it's, I'm with you legalize it and safe in it up. And I'm with you,

man. That is a whole episode unto itself. I just want to tell you guys, as the guy on this panel who knows the least about the origins of Canadian punk, I learned so much today. Like this was just a wealth of information and I really appreciate you guys breaking it down. I kind of can see the scenes now.

And I realize that the beginning and end of Canadian punk is the diodes. There we go, Ralph. Actually, can I just wrap one final question? And this is a big one. Will the diodes ever play more shows? Because I got to see some of their reunion gigs in the early 2000s. They were awesome at the Horseshoe. And I feel like Young Dundas Square, they played there too.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was the first one, I think. Yeah, which are both great. I'm curious, because I think Paul lives in the UK, does he not? Well, this is the sad problem. It's not sad. But John, the guitar player, and Paul, the singer, this is the sad problem. It's not sad, but John, the guitar player and Paul,

the singer live in London, England. And the, the drummer and the bass player live in Toronto. And the drummer, John Hamilton is, is slightly older than the rest of them. And he would prefer to not play drums live. He'd rather play keyboards, which he, he plays on the albums of them, and he would prefer to not play drums live.

He'd rather play keyboards, which he plays on the albums. So as a consequent, the last tour, we used a British drummer who was great. He copied all of John's – he was also called John, which was great. He copied all of John's moves from the albums, and he's a fantastic drummer. But, of course, when you're flying people over and then you're touring for not a lot of money,

it's quite an expensive endeavor. I would like for them to play again. It's just not that easy. Time will tell. It's hard for anyone to do it these days. I would give it, I think once this whole pandemic thing maybe clears up and if, I mean, my personal thing is rather than trying to tour, because as soon as you start moving around and, you know, you got hotels,

you got transport, you got gas, you have to rent gear because they're not really a local band anymore. My concept would be to just, let's say, find a small place like the Rivoli or something and do two or three nights. And then if you want to see them, you come to us as opposed to us coming to you. And it makes life a lot easier.

It makes it more financially feasible. And it's more special, you know, like, like they could, you know, I mean, you could play the first album and it's entirely one night. I mean, they got three albums. So, you know, like they could, you know, I mean, you could play the first album and it's entirely one night.

I mean, they got three albums. So, you know, anyway, those are all thoughts in my head. But ideally, I personally, as a manager, would rather have them stay in one spot and do two or three nights. And then it's just a lot easier financially to deal with it. Love it. Awesome. Awesome.

Brother Bill, thanks again. We're going to have a lot more of these coming down in the near future. But these PPMM episodes are a great deal of fun for me because we dive deep into these musical topics with like a Toronto or Canadian-centric approach. And I love them, man. I think you're two for two, brother. And I can't wait for number three.

Hey, thank you. Thanks for having me, Ralph. It was an absolute honor to meet you, sir. You are a legend in this industry, clearly. Your truth about the first wave of punk rock has opened my eyes as a guy who came into the second wave. And I just wanted to mention quickly, if I may, I want to pay some props to a guy by the name of Steve Kane.

Steve is the leaving president of Warner music. I think he's gone now. He truly is the punk rock president and he will be missed by everybody in the music industry and him and his wife debbie yeah he had my um uh when i was a rock photographer i i took the only photo of the ramones all smiling which i will show you hang on one second yeah let's see oh man this is in case you didn't know two of the ramones didn't speak to each other for their entire career. Johnny and Joey.

Because Johnny stole Joey's girlfriend. Johnny was like a big Republican too. He was. Look at that. Look at that. Oh my god. Hey, let me get a screen cap real quick. Can you hold it there for a second here?

Okay. I've got a mic. You got it? Okay. That's my, my photographer is Cam Gordon. That is outstanding. Look at those pearly whites. That's amazing.

Amazing. Okay. So where is that taken? So that is the legendary. That is taken at the Chelsea Inn toronto before they played their first ever canadian concert at the new yorker theater and how does steve kane tie into that or does he well here right this photo yeah was was framed and and hanging in his office at Warner Canada.

Wow. And that's a Gary's presentation, right? The Gary's brought the Ramones to Toronto, right? First, yeah. That's it. Getting all my stories right. As far as punk rock goes, Mike, the beginning of

a solid punk rock scene in Toronto started with the Ramones shows at the New York Theatre the way the Pistols played in Manchester and that spawned all of these bands that's what I'm getting makes sense, it actually makes sense so brother I've thanked you

immensely as always but Cam Gordon once again my brother from another mother year kicking ass taking names. Always a pleasure to have you on these episodes. Fun, fun as always. And so many fucking fun facts when we do these episodes.

And I should tell the listeners, we're already working on the third PPMM episode. This is already in the works with a guest and everything. So stay tuned for that, everybody. And Ralph Alfonso, you're an FOTM now. You made your debut.

Deep dive into Canadian punk. Loved it, buddy. Thanks so much for giving up a good couple hours of your night tonight. Sorry about the technology mix-ups. You know what? It wouldn't be a punk episode if we didn't have some. I felt it was very punk. Yeah, I didn't want this to be too polished, too produced.

I want it to be exactly as it was. Thanks so much, guys. This was great fun. Take care. Good meeting you. Bye. And that brings us to the end of our 953rd show. You can follow me on Twitter.

I'm at Toronto Mike. Brother Bill is at Neil Talks. Cam Gordon is at Cam underscore Gordon. Ralph Alfonso is at Ralph Alfonso. Alfonso's with an F. Our friends at Great Lakes Brewery are at Great Lakes Beer Chef Drop is at Get Chef Drop Moneris is at Moneris

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And Mike Majeski of Remax Specialist Majeski Group, they're at Majeski Group Homes on Instagram. See you all tomorrow when Dave Hodge kicks out his 100 jams of 2021. This podcast has been produced by TMDS and accelerated by Rome Phone. Rome Phone brings you the most reliable virtual phone service to run your business and protect your home number from unwanted calls. Visit RomePhone.ca to get started. Oh, you know that's true because everything is coming up rosy and gray.

Yeah, the wind is cold, but the smell of snow won't stay today. And your smile is fine, and it's just like mine, and it won't go away. Because everything is rosy and gray. Everything is rosy and green Well, I've been told That there's a sucker born every day But I wonder who Yeah, I wonder who Maybe the one who doesn't realize

There's a thousand shades of green Cause I know that's true Yes, I do I know it's true.