Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - Chris Brown: Toronto Mike'd #1018

Episode Date: March 21, 2022

In this 1018th episode of Toronto Mike'd, Mike is joined by musician Chris Brown as they talk about the Bourbon Tabernacle Choir, being a duo with Kate Fenner, touring with the Barenaked Ladies and The Tragically Hip, and what's happening on Wolfe Island. Toronto Mike'd is proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, Palma Pasta, Canna Cabana, StickerYou, Ridley Funeral Home and RYOBI Tools.

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Over 100 stores across the country. Learn more at cannacabana.com. And Ryobi. Join the cordless revolution with Ryobi's 18-volt OnePlus system. There are 260 tools in the system, and it's available at Home Depot. Joining me this week, making his Toronto Mic debut, is Chris Brown. Chris, welcome to Toronto Mic'd. Thanks. It's so nice to be here.

Well, it's nice to have you here. Right off the top, can we just pay tribute? Pay tribute sounds like he passed away and he's definitely still with us. But I just want to shout out Pete Fowler because the great Pete Fowler has connected us. How do you know Pete? Oh, music, radio. Like, I mean, he's just such a force.

And so he supported myself and so many of the artists I've worked with, you know? Yeah, he's a good egg. How do you know Pete? Well, basically from CFNY. So I remember him on CFNY. And then when i started doing this i wanted to talk to like all those guys i'd hear on the radio right so

so i i dug him up like he was you know he i found him put him on the show we became fast friends and half my wardrobe now is lost indie city t--shirts. That's great. Yeah. I got a few too. Love them. Actually. So I recently, I will, it sounds like a humble brag of recently I was in the Toronto star Chris and they sent over a photographer from the,

the newspaper and I had no doubt what shirt I was going to wear for the photo shoot. Like I went and grabbed my very first one for Pete. So Pete, this episode's for you, buddy. So Chris, I got to ask you right at the top, because we're going to get into this. You're just, you're all over the place and you have such an amazing, you know, CV, if you will, resume. We're

going to cover a lot of ground here, but can we just start by talking about your name? Yeah, sure. yeah okay so your name i am curious because uh at some point your name became uh like like not very seo friendly because another musician by the same name started like i would say stealing your not that i'm sure i'm not sure i'm not sure if you care you'll tell us but stealing your search engine uh rankings and it's very difficult to Google Chris Brown musician, for example. Right. So I'm wondering,

are you consciously going more by Hugh Christopher Brown versus Chris Brown because of that reason? Just talk to me about that. There's a couple of things. You know, a decade ago, I started the Prison Music Program and in all those materials, there's a couple of things when I, you know, a decade ago, I started the prison music program and,

um, in all those materials I would get referred to as Hugh, cause it's my legal name. Um, I have my cousins in Scotland who refer to me as Shiggy, which is, you know, yeah,

I've always been Chris. My dad is Hugh. So I was always Chris as a kid growing up. Right. Um, Christopher, um, the, the 1997 model uh Chris Brown it was interesting because a dear friend of mine um Sherman Holmes

who's kind of a music granddad to me called me up and said well Chris there's a young man running around using your name and doing all kinds of bad things right i know his grandmother in saluted virginia i think we should go talk to him so we still haven't done that yet but you know i i yeah it's it's um i mean there's many chris browns in fact even before the r&b chris brown came up if you googled chris brown there was this incredible wikipedia entry that basically someone in 500 years is going to find it and go holy shit this guy did a lot it you know there's a there's an engineer there's a um a free jazz player there's yeah there's a few of us but um there's a cbc

reporter i see often on like the national. That's me. You're, we're, we're reaching you now. You're in Ukraine right now, I believe, uh, talking to us, but also I just want to shout out,

uh, another Chris Brown. I've become very good friends with who painted the studio here. There's Chris, Chris Brown painting.com. So yeah, there's a lot of Chris Brown. Well,

I love that. Is that also you? Maybe that's you too. Um, yeah, it's, it. Yeah, it's all me. It's all of us. Right, except for all the bad stuff that other Chris Brown is doing. That's no good.

But my friend, okay, so lots of ground to cover. And I really appreciate your time here. Excited about this. But there's a line, I think it's in your bio on your website, actually. And I just want to read the line and then you can speak to it because maybe this is where it all begins. But the line is this. Chris has been receiving information from an unknown source ever since his kidney operation at age six months. Uh-huh. What else is there to say?

uh-huh what else is there to say it's it's obvious right um okay so firstly was there a kidney operation at age six months and uh there was so i um go ahead i was i was actually in a coma and um they weren't sure i was going to survive it. So, I mean, of the interesting stories around that time, they told my mom to let her milk go because they said, yeah, he's not going to make it. My mom years later told me that she leaned over my bassinet at SickKids and she started meowing and purring like a cat and I woke up. Wow. And part of her feeling for doing that was because she felt the hospital was

such an unfamiliar environment. We had these two beautiful Persians who were basically our second set of parents growing up, Misty and Petey. And she thought that maybe she familiarized the environment that I would come around, which, yeah. So that's why, you know, among other things, I have to look after the cats. It's like beyond my, it's not a matter of choice. It just is, you know.

But I have a feeling that other things hit me during that time or affected my physiology such that my experiences later in life would have been interpreted a specific way by me. So it's, yeah, it's very, it's mysterious and I really don't question it. You know, your mom's instincts were sharp because there's a famous story that I've read many times about Mel Blanc, the voice of Bugs Bunny and all those characters on Looney Tunes.

He was in, I think, a car accident or something, but he was in a coma and he wasn't responding at all until, I think, somebody spoke to him, called him Bugs Bunny or something, and then he replied back as Bugs Bunny. It was like somehow that tapped into his life.

Yeah, isn't that wild? So the cat thing worked for you at such a young age there. And I'm glad, by the way, for the record, I'm glad that you made it, man. That's a scary start to a productive and interesting life. Me too. Me too. Yeah, I think all of us are glad you made it.

Okay, now, we'll fast forward you a bit. And if I miss anything really cool, just tell the story, man. I just want to collect the stories. But Michael Barclay, I think his new book is out now, actually. He's got a new book. I'm sure you're in the new book, actually.

I've got to get my hands on it. But he's a good FOTM. But Michael Barclay says, be sure to ask him about dishwashing at the Bamboo Club as a teenager. Oh, yeah. Well, that was above my pay grade. But Dave Wall, who was in the Bourbons, our singer, was the dishwasher. I did everything from busing to serving tables to bar back.

And it was seminal for me. The bamboo was just a hallowed place of music. And I started working there when I was 16. Actually, the first time I worked there when I was 15 was volunteering for the Des Moines Jazz Festival.

And Defunct were playing Joe Bowie band and who we were all crazy about and so um i got to basically just look after the band for the night that was the first time that i hung out at the bamboo and then subsequently got a job there um made lifelong friends um and you know how many musicians were was i introduced to there david burn um like jude's in the maytals leroy civils george clinton showed up uh gil scott heron like i mean it was just such an amazing thing and and then as the bourbons formed you know in my later teenage years, we would start doing gigs there.

And, in fact, Richard O'Brien, who was the owner of the bamboo, bought me my first Hammond organ. I remember I was a busboy, and I was, like, cleaning a vent. And, you know, I was, like, 17 or 16. And he was like, what are you talking about and I said oh you know this Hammond and he goes you play Hammond and I said yeah but you know

at the time I had a box which I loved but this Hammond came up for sale and he goes come into the office and he cut me a check grade in your box and he goes anybody who's buying a Hammond isn't running away too fast so do this, get it, and the deal is you have to play all the Christmas parties here, which I did.

So there was a legacy that way as well. And then it was very interesting. On Wolf Island, my dear neighbor, Lisa, she came up to me a couple years back. She's like, I'm trying to figure out why we have like 100 Facebook friends in common and it's because we worked at the Bamboo together in our tour. I was like, oh my God.

I know it was a totally different life as a neighbor, but yeah, the Bamboo is famous and has such an effect on Toronto music. I was so privileged to be part of that when I was a teenager. Amazing. I got more teenager Chris Brown questions. But first, can we jump ahead real quick? So you're in Wolf Island.

You're at Wolf Island. You're on Wolf Island. What is it? You're on Wolf Island. Yes. One of Island. Yes. One of those. Okay. I can only imagine because I talk to Stephen Stanley now and then and

you hear, is it just like an artist community, like a commune of fantastic musicians there? I'm trying to envision this. What's the scene like? It is that. It's many things. It's many things. It's many things. It's an island in the headwaters of the biggest estuary on the planet,

so it's an incredible migratory place for birds. I came here for a hockey tournament as prompted by Dave Bedini many years ago. Right. And then ended up buying the old post office here and making a music studio. So for many years I was coming and going between New York and the island and then the

island just, everybody I worked with in New York started working here. I grew up in Toronto so it triangulates New York and Toronto where I have a lot of musical lives in both places and it's an amazing place so

yes there are many musicians living here you know and it's located in a great place for musicians to meet up and work and make records so we bought the hotel here where I'm sitting as a multiple music venue,

recording studio, broadcast center, local food restaurant, and creating a farmer's market last summer in a public pier. So it's helping for an integration of an economy on the island based on the arts and agriculture. Sounds utopian. Okay, yeah, absolutely. on the island based on the arts and agriculture. Sounds utopian. Okay. Yeah, absolutely.

Amazing. Okay. Amazing. We'll, we'll get back to Wolf Island. I'm sure at some point, but Canada Kev, who is a listener of this podcast and a huge fan of yours sent me a very like

thoughtful and lengthy email. So I'm going to read it in its entirety. So hang in there, Chris, there's a lot of good stuff in here. But he writes, Chris and the Bourbon Tabernacle Choir came out of Lawrence Park Collegiate

and having a band from the neighborhood was sweet. Saw them win the Battle of the Bands at the Masonic Temple. He thinks that was around 87. You'll tell us in a minute if he's right. But then he saw you in just about every venue across the city. Such an amazing live band. I'll just finish this, and then there's lots for you to cover here.

But he writes, I absolutely loved Chris's playing style. The Hammond B3 and Clavinet, along with a big Leslie Cabinet speaker, and I was hooked. He wasn't able to play that way when he did his stint with B&L. We'll get to B&L later. They're good friends too at the show. I remember a song that Chris used to perform

that wasn't on any of their releases, and I think it was called Mrs. Brown. It had the words, what are you doing, Mrs. Brown? What are you doing to your boy? I think. I would love to know if he remembers that one and if I can ever hear it again.

And then he closes with a fun fact. His wife, Canada Kev's wife, worked with you, Chris, when you guys were in high school working as a part-time janitorial staff for the TDSB. Canada Kev ended up working the job himself for a couple of years, unionized, punch card, and all of that. Chris, please respond to Canada Kev ended up working the job himself for a couple of years, unionized, punch card, and all of that.

Chris, please respond to Canada Kev's wonderful email. The song in question was about James Brown when he was arrested, and it was a live thing. It was, what are you doing, Mr. Brown? Okay. What are you doing today? They've gone and locked you away. I don't know if you remember when he got pulled over and started dancing for the

cop. How could I forget? Of course. So, you know, we would, we would play James Brown among other things in the band. And,

and so that was, that was what that was. And it never found its way to recording. Although I have heard lives. If you search it down online there's some live stuff recordings like maybe from the Diamond and other places

on tour yes the janitorial job during high school was like amazing because you were unionized and you were making bank, which was just such a great afterschool job,

a couple of hours. It was, yeah, it was, it was a legacy passed on to me by kind of older students as they were graduating from high school. I got, you know,

granted the position. So I, yeah, I remember that fondly and it allowed me to buy some of my instruments I still have to this day. Wow.

What else did we cover? The Battle of the Bands. That was kind of a seminal moment for the band in Toronto because we won a thousand bucks, which we used for two days of studio. You can believe it.

And I used trainer PA that, that PA is still used by my godson and his band. But yeah, like, you know, and that was really, I mean, for us, obviously playing in the Sonic Temple is a big deal. Like, you go to see so many concerts there and to play there ourselves is great. But someone recently floated a video of that, and it was really extraordinary to watch. I mean, among other things, like, it was just brave. Like, we were playing these extended form songs, and they were, you know, we had dancers, and, you know, I think part of the thing was that we were just

playing the music that was always ingrained in us, Curtis Mayfield, and Sly Stone, and, in us, Curtis Mayfield and Sly Stone and, well, like Van Morrison, songwriters like Dylan and, you know, but at the time, that wasn't really the flavor. Like Duran Duran was more kind of what was going. And so I think the whole thing about me playing a Hammond and lugging around like what were vintage keyboards. For me, it was just sound that I loved. now when I look back and I go, yeah, I saw us now. Back then, I'd go, who are these kids?

I think the legacy of that band, in terms of all of our friendships or relationships, and where we've gone on in music, shows that we were tapped into something. And, you know, like we enjoyed popularity to an extent. It was our job for decades. We never like got so super huge,

although, you know, we get offered pretty good sums of money to reform and play, but it just, it's only happened once. And then the other thing is I actually did have my hand I had to offer a pretty good sum of money to reform and play, but it just, it's only happened once. Um, and then the other thing is I actually did have my hand in my cabinet on the road with the bare naked ladies by, by their request. Wow. Wow.

Okay. We got a whole like BNL segment here, but do you think this, um, Masonic temple, uh, battle of the bands, is that around,

is that 87? What do you say? I would, I would, I would place it around an 87, 88, something like that. Oh, great. Well, you know, the,ands. Is that around 87? What do you say? I would place it around 87, 88, something like that. Oh, great. Well, you know, the music of that, because I remember 87 very well, and

it was Bon Jovi's Slippery When Wet. I think that's what the people were clamoring for. Give me some of that Bon Jovi stuff. That's what I remember. Highly sensation record. Absolutely. All right. Now, actually, there's even more. Believe it or not, Canada Kev was so excited,

I got a follow-up, so I'll just run through the last couple lines. He says, Chris's musicianship and writing abilities paired with the voice of Kate Fenner, who we're going to talk about in a moment, is such a perfect combination. Ask him if he's ever played a,

and I hope I pronounce all this right, a honer clavinet with a whammy bar. He could bend minds with it, I'm sure. Neil Francis is my Chris Brown Jr. Yeah, no, I've never played with a whammy bar. Neil Francis is great. And that's a really cool thing, you know. If I come across one, I'll get one. I think, you know, is Neil Francis from Australia? I can't remember, but I,

you know, it's funny when I was in Melbourne many years ago, I found a shop that makes parts for the clavinet out of dairy farm rubber because it's the same viscosity. And for many years, it was very hard to keep your clavinet up. Now it isn't because there are people who specialize in the maintenance of these instruments. But yeah, the clavinet is such a wonderful, wonderful instrument. I just adore it. Well, I'm going to make you talk more about the clavinet because Basement Dweller sent me an email,

and his question is, Hey, seeing as how the underrated clavinet was an integral component of the Bourbon Tabernacle Choir's rich sound, I'm just wondering what are some of his favorite tracks by such masters of that particular instrument, like Stevie Wonder, Herbie Hancock, Billy Preston, and Sly Stone? And thanks for all that great music over the past three-plus decades. Oh, thanks. That's lovely. Oh, yeah.

I mean, Sly Stone's just like a baby. The clavinet on that is just so sublime. Everything on there's right going on. It's amazing. Stevie Wonder's cover of We Can Work It Out by the Beatles is also a seminal, seminal clavinet moment.

Needless to say, Superstition, which is kind of like the all-time anthem of the clavinet. But there's so much that Stevie did, Happier Than the Morning Sun, where he started arpeggiating my guitar, and that's where he used the Clavinet Pianet,

which is the one that I use. You know, we toured with, Kate and I toured with NRBQ for the better part of a year. And Terry is just such an amazing player. It's such an incredible percussive instrument. You know, there's so many. George Duke. George Duke's work on a clavinet is incredible.

Yeah, I mean, like on Headhunters, Herbie Hancock. It's, yeah, it's really something. And it's funny because it gets used a lot percussively, but it's also a beautiful melodic instrument. And for me, again, I wasn't so into synths replacing things. I was, synths making their own sounds and being atmospheric, I was into, but I wasn't really into synth since substituting for other instruments. So the clavinet was an acoustic electric instrument that I could carry. I mean, it weighed 99 pounds.

But, you know, when I was a kid in New York, I had one with wheels on it, like it had wheels bolted to the side that I would busk with, you know. Wow. You mentioned, say, I like to drop fun facts whenever one strikes me. So I have to, you know, interrupt this program to drop the NRBQ fun fact, because you mentioned NRBQ.

They're like, I'm sure most of their income comes from like Simpsons royalties, because for, like, I'm sure you're aware of this, of course, but for a few years, NRBQ is sort of the simpsons house band like when mike scully was the head writer because he was such a big fan of nrbq so there's a lot of nrbq songs in the simpsons like seasons like i don't know 10 11 12 right around then so yeah i know that's yeah they were the favorite band of so many musicians.

Bonnie Raitt, she really has championed them. But they just never saw their due. They really influenced a lot of music. When Hail Hail Rock and Roll, Keith Richards put that together for Chuck Berry. He used Joey Spaffanato On bass They Yeah like it was such An education to tour with them And to

See the way they moved people And cross genres You know I remember Michael Blake who was on tour With us he was a Phenomenal sax player and musician We were playing in San Francisco. We did our set. NRBQ comes out, and the third song,

and Michael's like, I think this is my favorite band in the world. So for all of you out there who haven't really dealt in to NRBQ, really do yourself a favor. And it's a really, really deep well. All right, my friend, we need to get into the details of your band, Bourbon Tabernacle Choir, because in fact, I'm wondering in my head now,

do you mind if I play a little bit of some early, like an early important song from your band and then we can talk about it? Is that cool? Just play a bit? It's your show. You do whatever you want to do. All right. So let's soak in a little bit of this and then we'll talk about the band. Said, are you happy, baby? You think you need an upper? There is a difference between reality and wanting just to suffer. You'll find your logic seems just a little tougher Put your head on your shoulders, baby

Yeah, put it on When you decapitate Your world fits into pockets You see things just the way that you wanna see Plug into the sack Put your head on your shoulders baby

Put it on Before you get much funner baby Put it on Hey Wow, okay, put your head on So I chose this jam to start with here Because I feel like it'll help us with the origin story

And then as we kind of figure out where this band goes But I turn it to you maybe i'll bring it down a little more chris okay we talked about the masonic temple battle the bands 1987 so maybe walk us through where things go from there and uh how put your head on uh helps the band kind of get more awareness and work, etc. I put a single in a video. Dave Wall wrote that song. And it was, I think it ended up on the album Superior Cracking Hand.

But, you know, back in the days of much music and when you put out singles and tours and videos, you know, like that definitely was something that helped launch us into radio um and the video got into rotation on much music so that you know that definitely helped our national and eventually international profile and actually what was funny was i i think it has to do with that video. Around that time, I would have been 20 or 21, Harry Connick was playing at the Jazz Festival in Toronto, and I went to see him because, you know, he was a young pianist who was playing a lot of stride and music that I was interested in.

And Brentford Marcellus was in the audience He was a young pianist who was playing a lot of stride in music that I was interested in. And Brantford Marcellus was in the audience because the Marcelluses were all playing the next night at Roy Thompson Hall. And Brantford came up to me. He was like, hey, man, how's it going? I was like, good. How are you? And he was like, it's Brantford. And I said, yeah, I know who you are.

We haven't met. He goes, no, no, I know you. I know you. You're a musician. And, you know, we ended up talking and I'm pretty sure it's because that video was in rotation at the time, but that's where you would have seen me playing organ anyway. He kept me out of school because I'd, I'd gotten into Berkeley for composition and I asked him,

I said, Hey man, you, you went to Berkeley he goes yeah five minutes and he goes he goes why are you going there I said well I was accepted he said but you're already working he's like why are you going to go to school and then you know it sounds it sounds just kind of like a toss-off but he was actually really really influential because you know he asked talked to me about the fact that I already had teachers that I studied with,

the fact that I was working, and he said, school's always there, man. Like, you know, you got to chase the music when it's in front of you. And it was really, it was a really important meeting. So that was kind of, and then he and Harry and I ended up hanging out all night, very late in Toronto. So that's tied to that song for me. Um, you know, amazing, amazing. So that's, uh, that, that song produced by Bob Wiseman, right? Oh yeah, man. Which was really fun. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, yeah, we, we worked with Bob on a couple of singles.

And yeah, I've just been recently talking to Bob about another project, which was really nice to reconnect with. But he was a hero growing up, needless to say. I can imagine. I can imagine. And just tell me a bit about, so Bruce McDonald, I guess this is how you guys end up with that song on highway 61 soundtrack another one yeah that that ended up going in highway um bruce mcdonald's film yeah which was yet again you know vaulted the band a little bit more because bruce's films are

wonderful and so popular and so yeah it's funny like when you're when you're um we were so young like we're just kind of doing what we did right and because it was our band that had formed when we were kids you're not really that self-conscious of it you're just doing stuff because it comes to you which is a really wonderful state um and then people find you you know who relate to it for one reason or another, and it draws you deeper into the cultural fabric of your – creates communities. I won't even say community, but it creates communities. let's say going for a university or, or another experience can, you know, bring you into the fabric of work. If, you know, to this day,

I, I stand by what Granford said to me that by really, really applying yourself, um, to music, it's all there. It all, you know,

it all, it all comes to you and you have to be really to work hard, but you have to just be, be willing basically. but you have to just be willing, basically. And the opportunities that we were afforded back then have had, you know, lifelong impact. Plus, it was just a pleasurable thing to do. It was hard and not without its challenges, but to tour and get to know Canada, like by playing music, it was just such a privilege. But, you know, you were helped by,

you know, you're on the soundtrack and you're on Much Music, which was, of course, that's nationwide, right? That's, I mean, I had Moe Berg over here, like he talks about dropping off the I'm an adult now video, like dropping it off at like, you know, 299 Queen Street.

And it's like, suddenly it's in like high rotation and it's a game changer, right? But I always wonder, what do you tell new artists? This whole system and infrastructure is gone, really. I work with a lot of new artists. That structure is gone,

but so have 78s. You know? And so, I mean, it's the same thing I tell old artists, which is that it's no longer about that pipeline. The nice thing is that everything you do right now has immediate international consequence and opportunity. The challenge is that there's not five channels on TV. There's an infinite number of channels, an infinite number of media being created,

and people basically have free access to it. So I think rather than resisting that, finding ways of making things that are meaningful to you and getting them out there is, is the name of the game because ultimately there are so many avenues for you to be seen and heard. Like there's less monetization of just exact things. Record deals are not what they used to be.

They're not the way forth unless you're one of a handful of artists that is pursuing that, which is, it's a whole thing. A 3C thing these days, dancing, singing,

merchandise, all of that. It's I think it's really 3C thing, these days dancing, singing merchandise, all of that. I think it's really for me, it's just always reinforced like, oh well if they're not paying so much

for your soul anymore then why would you sell it anyway? It's like a re-affirmation that you should always be doing what's important to you and what's relevant to your life. So, you know, workers control the means of production. You know, you don't spend $250,000 making an album anymore. And the consequences are you can make decisions, you can spend a long time doing things or a short time doing things relevant to what they need and require.

And then the other thing I think through that is that musicians need to be paid. And it's quite often the case, it was always that way with the corporate world, that it would be like, oh, they're going to do it anyway, right? Well, it's like, okay, cool. So if we're not spending all, you know, going into debt with record companies, making records, which is how it used to work. They were like banks and you kept a percentage of it. It's like, well, no, now find the 20 or 30K to make a record and pay the people involved properly. And don't burden yourself. Just figure it out.

There's always commerce to it. You can always figure it out. I mean, people gripe about having to go online and beg for cash. I don't see it that way. I find people who do fundraising campaigns, it engages an audience. It gives people a stake in what's coming up. It creates activities like house concerts. And it totally annihilates the middleman.

I'd much rather have artists being paid directly by their audiences than filtered through a record company or a gatekeeping. rather have artists being paid directly by their audiences than then filtered through a record company or gatekeeping so you know I mean people are littering the road like they'll just put stuff online that's fine that's one thing but if you're not doing that if you're if you're creating stuff that is is meaningful and it's gonna it's like Eddie Grant said years ago when Electric Avenue hit he was like you know I just figured that if something felt good to me, it probably felt good to at least 100,000 people on the planet,

which is such a simple but pithy statement, you know. It's about faith. So then, Chris, because I love what you're saying, but then when it comes time to, you know, I'll use the expression cut through the noise but just sort of like like like is is it's not as simple as simply putting out good art like uh sharing good art with the with the zeitgeist right like like at some point if you want to make a living in music does that opportunity exist for those who aren't named you know

the weekend or drake or justin bieber like i guess i'm wondering i have a lot of musicians and fantastic music but then you find out oh they've got a nine to five like they're working a nine to five job and then the music is the passion project almost whereas i feel in the 90s like you could make a go of it and music could be your life well well yeah because you know i can i can i'm a living example of that that's it was such a point of pride that we were paying our rent playing music and going on tour and doing things like a weekend at lee's palace in toronto hitting the road oh two weeks a month later playing the diamonds like oh gotta put a month between that and the horseshoe like just you know the culture live music um so again yeah that changed but then you know dj culture came in and a sense, that was cheaper for clubs to run.

This was even before the whole downloading phenomenon. So then the downloading phenomenon did a number of things, which got people used to not paying for music. And then by that time, like living in New York, where people stopped, you know, a lot of clubs stopped charging a cover charge and you had to pass the bracket. Which, you know, culturally it was one thing at after hours clubs or, you know, there's a real culture downtown in New York that remains to this day of people gathering to play, um, who do concerts or make their living elsewhere. Um, but you know, the, the,

the, the days of, you know, certainly, you know, being a working live road band changed. Like you need to have, um, the support of media but media is again is no longer a single tube it's it's it's it's a myriad tentacle thing and you can

connect with fans for me I my, everybody's trajectory is different, but, you know, so, the Bourbons were a touring band for 10 years. Then Kate and I were in New York for another like 13 years, playing all the time,

and I was doing tons of sessions for other people, which evolved into a lot of production work. Like it went from, hey, can you play organ on a record? Can you arrange the strings to, oh, can you just produce this album? And then needless to say, doing stints with people like the Tragically Hip and the Bare Naked Ladies or the Cratestemies or, you know, I mean, just iconic Canadian bands that I had the privilege of participating

with so you know that's my yeah and in between there I haven't minded doing other jobs like it was more important to me to kind of be making the music that that I cared about than than just arbitrarily kind of doing anything. And as I've kind of gotten more into it, like the last, since being on Wolf Island, production has been a big thing. I produce a lot of records for people. Yet, in a way, I have more time to play piano here. And the whole kind of, because I'm not at everybody's beck and call as I was in New york like five six

states a week playing concerts so um the whole thing about having the hotel is creating a platform for artists um both in a performance and reporting sense you know and okay so you're wolf island uh because another issue that speaks to a lot of what you're you're saying actually is the the fact that and i'll just use an example from a conversation I had on this program, but I had Kim Mitchell on and we're talking about Max Webster and he's telling me about the house they lived in East end of the city, Toronto four one six. And,

uh, I think each band member had to chip in a hundred bucks a month for the rent or something like that. Like they could afford to hone their craft and be starving artists and still like i mean we we know what rents are like that same that same place he probably was renting for a hundred bucks each is probably now i don't know seven hundred dollars i don't know but bottom line is uh real estate and cost of living in Toronto, I don't think you can ever afford to be a starving artist honing your craft and live in this city.

Unless you had help from rich parents. Well, I got two answers to that. One, just on the art. So there's an artistic response to that, which is that more albums and work gets made solipsistically and personally. So it's less about bands living together and honing a sound than it is about people becoming really adept at programming, making beats.

And you can see in the last two decades how that, but that was always the case in New York. Like, you know, why hip-hop came out of urban centers? Because, you know, scratching and, I mean, it's cultural. DJing, drumming, of course, great players come out of everywhere. But this was, you know, ways that you could bring the music and we need music, right? So that's going to happen in every case.

Like if you go to more rural areas, it's going to be, you know, on acoustic and stringed instruments generally. So there's that. Then, you know, you touch on the matter of real estate and it's not only music and the capacity to play music, it's the capacity to actually do anything and have a hardware store downtown, for instance.

Right. So this is an important thing, which is a tangent, but I mean, it's really linked to all of our lives currently. The degradation of everything into real estate means that you make much more money selling something than doing something. It means that you make much more money selling something than doing something. And so, for instance, this hotel in which I'm sitting, which is now secured as a civic asset, as a farmer's market, as a live venue and recording studio, as a hotel, wherein 20 businesses started up last year during the market. Even under COVID, we had somewhere around 75 shows here last year.

Wow. If we didn't do this, there'd be condominiums on the waterfront, right? And when we were going to do this, every single bank we went to on the mainland was like, oh my God, that's so great. My parents got married there. No. Oh, I'm so glad someone's finally doing something creative no whereas if we were to say oh we're going to exploit our return on investment by doing massive development and putting condominiums here

the the banks would were all over it literally the whole system is set up right to basically exploit and even now like oh it's it's gone up x times in value so we make a really smart business move and sell it and then go and screw up some other piece of land somewhere else rather than running something that's multi-sectoral rural economic development supporting the arts and local agriculture. So there are punitive practices in place by the financial industry towards such endeavors. So, you know, we've always known this as musicians and artists. Now, really getting involved in capitalism of this nature, I realize how much it sucks, how much it's been based on fear and false competition.

And it's something that certainly people are awaking to violently or otherwise. You know, and if you look at, you can look at any of the turmoil currently afoot, and you look at disparity, and you look at how that fuels superstition, and you look at how that fuels superstition, lack of identification with others, fear, anxiety, all of that stuff, which just feeds into fascism, which is rampant. So, you know, again, what is the antithema to that? To me, art is one of the great antithemas to that. Absolutely.

It's one of the answers. Two things, just quickly here. One is that thank you for not selling to condo developers. Like that'd be so easy to sign that document and then take that money and go to whatever. But so that's amazing. But this is a dumb question from a guy in Toronto, okay? I guess there are no dumb questions

or maybe there are, maybe this is one. But like Wolf Island, I've been hearing the legend of Wolf Island for a while now and it's like i want to go there i feel like liz lemon like i want to go there but like is it simply a ferry from kingston like like how do i go there like what's you get is that right you get on a ferry from kingston tell me the uh nuts and bolts for a guy in southwest Toronto here. Yeah. Well, when I first came, I came up from New York and there's a ferry from Cape Vincent, um, New York.

There's also a ferry, which is part of the trans Canada. So it's free from, from, uh, Kingston. It runs on the island. Here's another person who didn't sell the condominiums.

My partner in the hotel. I'm just walking around. Hey, hello. Toronto Mike. Um, so, uh, but yeah, you, in fact, Hey, hello. Toronto Mike. Hello there. But yeah, in fact, when I first came up, it was the winter, so I actually did take the Kingston Ferry,

and I crashed at Sarah Harmer's house the night before. Hey, nice. I took the 7 a.m. boat and came, and the tractor was pulling the Zamboni, and I just immediately fell in love with this place. But it's the second largest freshwater island in the world. You know, again, it's similar to Manhattan in that it sits in a massive estuary, so it just is a place of confluence.

It's a place of natural confluence and also the confluence of ideas and humans. And it has been, as we, you know, deal and work with the past, like the real past of this place going back thousands of years, it was always a meeting place, always a gathering place for music, fishing, storytelling, and that's all we're tapping into with the project, the hotel. And people, you know, somebody who comes for the art and the music at Wolf Island can stay, the hotel. And people, you know, somebody who comes for the art and the music at Wolf Island can stay at your hotel.

Like, this is an operating hotel. Like, me and my family could book a room and stay at your hotel. Yep. Wow. Yep. Honestly, this is going, I'm writing this down.

This is happening. Like, this is very exciting. Okay, so I realize that was fascinating, but just a little more BTC. Oh, you're calling them the bourbons. I could call them the bourbons, too, if you're calling, but just a little more BTC. Oh, you're calling them the Bourbons. I could call them the Bourbons too, if you're calling them. You can call them BTC, it's fine. Many names of this great band.

Okay, I'm just going to play a little bit of another jam, and then we got to talk about Kate and some other things here. But I just want to, hey, you pick. If I were going to play, what would you like to hear more? Make Amends, Afterglow. Make amends, afterglow, make amends or afterglow? Throw on make amends. Well, just look at you Once you were fed with such fire

Now your energy fills my memory Makes me alive That is something I will never forget So off your baggage to pay off your debt And make amends with yourself Yeah, so you can live it, baby Make amends with yourself Yeah, just as a gift, baby

Please make amends with Oh, let me hear a bit more. Peace. And I was caught today, yeah, yeah. Make amends with yourself, yeah, yeah. So you can live it, baby. Woo! Make amends with yourself. So if listeners can't tell by now, Chris, you're a very principled person. And one great example of that is at some point, I guess, the band said we're not playing any concert or any festival that's sponsored by a tobacco company. Is that right?

Yeah. Well, you know, my father dying of lung cancer, and even though he never smoked a day in his life, it really clued me into their tactics of deception. It just wasn't an option for us. At that point, one of the major tobacco companies was offering us a tour bus. To my band's credit, who all played at my dad's funeral, it wasn't even an argument. It was just like, no, thanks, thank you. argument just like yeah no thanks thank you you know um but you know i mean musicians we face that all the time because people want to use your fan base and your whatever else the magnetism of the

music to do to to all kinds of things you have to be you know you just have to kind of pick and choose right i mean i think earlier in the the show you mentioned the jazz festival was brought to you by... Young kids don't understand because it can't happen today, but Demoria would bring you the jazz festival, right? Yeah, in fact, I think they still do and do their credit quietly. But yeah, we grew up in Toronto with the Demoria

Jazz Fest, which brought, I mean, a lot of musicians that defunct, like that changed my life to town. And this is great you want corporation sponsoring art you know you just don't want it normalizing certain activities and certainly at that point like i said it just really corresponded with my dad's passing and it just was not it just wasn't going to happen so i'm wondering now uh because i think it was canadian music week i think is one of the you know you know festivals, if you will, that the bourbons wouldn't play because of that principled decision regarding tobacco companies and their sponsorship.

So I'm wondering, why does it end for the bourbons, I guess? Before that, I want you to talk about Kate, because of course, you guys, like you mentioned, you guys perform as a duo for a good long time. But tell me why it ends for the Bourbon Tabernacle Choir. Well, you know, we started when we were 15 and 16 years old, right? So by the time we're 25, we've been at it 10 years and you're still dealing with the identity that you forged in your early teens. That's like challenging, you know. What's also challenging is that you're playing for thousands of people every night and that's very attractive and especially when you have lots of friends

who are struggling musicians and you're like, why you don't look this gift to us in the mouth? However, because we were working independently, you know, I just deemed that we'd kind of, we had a good thing going in Canada and we needed to expand it. So I gave up my place in Toronto, got a place in New York, ostensibly for us to be working out of.

And as soon as things started happening in America, the band, the tensions really started pulling because the people who, you know, folks, significant others, who eventually became people's wives for instance were in Toronto not everybody was on the same trajectory which is totally understandable

because it started when we were kids for Kate and I they're just we didn't blink like I remember having that meeting where it was like people wanted to do the Canadian festival circuit again and I was just like, I'm staying in New York. And,

and Kate was like, I'm going with him. And I remember driving back down after that meeting in Toronto. And I just turned to Kate and I was like, I have no plans. And she's like, that's fine. I was like,

you know, so what we ended up doing was playing. We had three house gigs. We played first street cafe, which was so small you didn't even use mics. It was like an acoustic gig in the East Village on Mondays. Thursday nights we did a jazz gig in the West Village at Nine Jones. And Sunday nights we played a rock gig at Nine Gales. And that's how our band formed in New York with Tony Shearer and Mike Mazur.

And those three things just like we literally went from playing the Commodore in Vancouver or whatever to playing to seven people in Nightingale's. But I remember feeling like they're probably going away with a bigger portion of it, each of them. You know, I don't know. I mean, to this day, I mean, I think, like, hopefully my ego is kind of, it keeps kind of getting carved in shape. But I remember just knowing something innately that, oh, this is right. It's not like it was scary because it had been our job for 10 years. But I also saw that.

I remember also feeling at the time like, oh, now I know what I'm going to grow old doing. So I'm glad now we're finally speaking about Kate because Kate Fenner is such a, you know, it's hard to talk about Chris Brown without talking about Kate Fenner. I need to get Kate on Toronto Mike, by the way. But she's on Wolf Island Records too, right?

Wolf Island Records, right. What's that? Well, she's working on a new record right now that's beautiful that I will get her to send you. I just did a little bit of string arrangement on it, but she's making it with Scott Harding in New York right now. Okay, well, let her know. Toronto Mike wants her.

It's funny with you, Chris. This is obviously on Zoom, but for some reason, I put in my notes you were going to be at my door. That's my mistake. I looked back at the chat we had with pete and i realized it was completely inconclusive like i gave you a zoom link so i don't know why but it's literally like everything was set up i have and i'll do this very briefly here because i want to get back to the music but i have a lasagna for you in the freezer upstairs from Palma Pasta.

Oh, wow. I know. Keep it in the freezer because I'm going to be in Toronto soon. The reason why I think is because when we first talked about it, it was during Omicron, and I said, I'll try to make the interview in Toronto. If not, we'll do it this way. So I earnestly was very interested in being in Toronto, and I will will be back and you and I will eat lasagna.

Okay, here's what I will give you when I do meet you in the city here. No joke. So, Palma Pasta, who catered my daughter's sixth birthday party on the weekend. It was delicious. But I got a lasagna. Man, I'm so full still, but

I got a lasagna for you from Great Lakes. I have fresh craft beer for you from Great Lakes Brewery. I have a Toronto Mike sticker for you from Sticker U. I have a toque for you from Canna Cabana, cannacabana.com, because you always need a toque in Wolf Island everywhere. But I have ready for this. Okay. Ridley Funeral Home.

I have a measuring. This is for you. You never know when you have to measure something, Okay. Ridley Funeral Home. I have a measuring. This is for you. You never know when you have to measure something, right, Chris? So you get it. Yeah, Tom. I'll bring that back to Tom when he measures things every day.

Absolutely. You never know. And I don't actually. Is that drill for me? Is that drill for me? See, wouldn't that be something, right? I wish I could give you this drill, but my wife would kill me

if I gave you this drill. But I do have to speak. So I do want to tell people listening that there's actually a great episode of Toronto Mike. It's better than it ever should have been. It was fantastic. Becky from RYOBI was on Friday's show. We kicked out the power tool jams and people should check it out.

RYOBI, of course, you'll learn more on that episode, but just this tremendous system where they all use the same battery and charger and they got 260 tools. And anyway, you'll hear my wife on that episode from friday because she swears by the ryobi tool set but okay my friend you're getting lots of stuff when we meet that's a no-brainer but i have questions so kate you still work with kate oh yeah all the time So could you maybe, and I extract this from you, but you've kind of already done so, but just because Chris Brown and Kate Fenner are so linked, like tell me about your relationship with her. Like what kind of, you know, just talk to me about Kate, if you don't mind.

Well, I mean, relationship wise, we were one another's first loves like when we were kids you know and then music just always kind of kept us together um our son lucian is my godson who's himself a wonderful musician and artist among other things and we have the good pleasure of giving him his first job at the hotel here this summer. You know, leaving New York was, you know, I didn't really leave New York. I added the island to New York. But then with the pandemic and with the advent of taking on the hotel the last couple of years, I've really, really been focused here. But in usual times, we keep gigs.

I mean, I kept one of my Hammonds at the living room for many years and that was a regular show for us but let's see, so Bourbons lasted for 10 years and after that Kate and I made 5 records, toured a lot as a duo as I mentioned the experience with

NRBQ we also toured for a year with BB King we've done a lot of stuff beside yeah we toured with the hip i made that album music at work with the hip and then we spent a year on there with hip and you can see videos of kate singing with gourd doing duos duets with uh flamenco and um scared and i you know i like so we've done all these other extracurricular things as musicians scared and I you know I like so we've done all these other extracurricular things as musicians she's now involved in a lot of things um the the celebrated visual artist Joan Jonas who's now in her 82nd year um you know Kate's voice is now in the Whitney um they did the finale and Bill

Bao with Jason Moran and and you know so she's she's like um involved involved in a whole set of folks herself, the same way I am here on the island, and we do share a large music community together. Occasionally, people fly us places to do what we do. We have a song in the International Archive of Protest Songs in Glasgow called Resist War, which has been started, people have started hiking out again lately. I mean, you know, it's just, it's really a life together. And there's been a lot we've witnessed, you know, in one of those families.

Music has documented it, and it just continues to do so so it's you know it's not even it's funny because the like the way i didn't even really realize it but kate's voice as an instrument just so affected the writing and that's why like on our records like everything it's just says written by the two of us whether i was doing the 80 of the writing she was doing 80 of the singing like vice versa like neither of those things happen without one another so it's beautiful you know we yeah we were doing this thing um when for the prison program we were doing this thing for the prison program. We were doing a thing in New York for the board of the David Rockefeller Fund.

We supported the prison program. Kate and I were doing a performance, and someone said, it's like there's a third person there where you guys perform. I knew what they were saying, and I'm like, yeah, right. It's just this thing. We've just been doing it since we were kids, and it's just, you know. Wow. Okay, so I want to just let especially Brian Dunn know that we are going to get to B&L in a moment here,

so you can't leave me yet here because we've got to do B&L, and I need to ask you a bit more about the hip and then a little bit about today. But since you mentioned it, what can you share with us about the pros and cons program? The pros and cons music program is a program I started in prisons after the Harper Hunter started dismantling, not only the agricultural programs, but also many of the social programs, which were very,

very effective in prisons. And watching our friends and neighbors get arrested and put their bodies in front of trucks when they were pulling the 200-year-old heritage herd out of Collins Bay motivated me to just go inside and, you know, do something. Like, historically, I did benefits, but a benefit for convicted criminals, it wasn't going to really work. So I just had to kind of, I play music, so I went and started playing music. And that developed from workshops, and it was kind of clandestine at first just because of the temperament and the temperature of the day with the government.

But then eventually, As It Happens came along and was just like, hey, can we play something? And we said no for a while, and then it just felt like, okay, well, this is the time. And we launched one of the songs through as it happens and then it got a lot of national attention and then i think it's just been protected by its goodness you know um so now what happens is people get out of prison we are able to bring them back in to mentor other um inmates we build recording recording studios in prisons. Those songs get released anonymously to support charitable works,

usually tied to the perpetrators' crimes. We're in men and women's prisons. Just before the pandemic struck, we were having a meeting at regional headquarters to nationalize the program which runs independently of corrections but that is kind of in the works because we've just been awarded charitable status which has taken years of work and is largely due to the mother of one of the former convicts um and uh yeah that's it it's you know you can go online and hear all the

music that's made there i mean even recorded Postcards from the County. It was an album that was made entirely inside. Wow. Good for you. I think it would be easy for some hard-nosed, I won't judge any political stripe of any nature, but to say they did bad things, they don't deserve to have music in their lives

or something whereas you you recognize you and i did it because i haven't done anything bad at you that's why i can have music it's really great being this good right right right and you recognize that you rehabilitate somebody who may have committed a crime and is now you know serving their uh sentence for you know society could be rehabilitated and become a productive and important, contributing part of our community. And thanks to programs like yours, with bringing the arts to these people and creating musical works for charities.

Well, it is called Corrections, right? Right, right, right. It was funny. I did an interview on CFRB years ago on one of the shock jock shows. And at first I was like, what is this? And then I realized he was totally putting the ball on the tee for me. It was so great.

He was going, so you're telling me that a bunch of murderers. And I was like, oh, this is great. He's genius. And I do think there is that. I think, you know, the appetite for vengeance and all that stuff, it gets, gets stoned. Um, and, and there's so much political advantage to it. Like Harper would stand up in front of a platform that said victims first and first. So I don't know if you remember that, but it was brutal. Um, uh, and I defy anybody to go into prison and have three conversations

and not have their lives changed. Right. Do you remember? You don't have any memory. Maybe you do. Who was the person on CFRB? Do you remember? I don't, but he was a genius.

That doesn't narrow it down. They're all geniuses on CFRB. But okay. Listen, Brian Dunn's been waiting patiently. And Brian Dunn might be the world's biggest Barenaked Ladies fan, and he listens to Toronto Mic'd every episode. He's listening right now. He writes in,

and he writes in, is there one moment that sticks in your mind from touring with Barenaked Ladies when they were number one in America? So maybe before you answer that specific question, set the stage for me here. FOTM Kevin Hearn was battling leukemia So maybe before you answer that specific question, set the stage for me here. FOTM Kevin Hearn was battling leukemia and needed to step aside.

And how did it come to be that you were tapped on the shoulder to join Bare Naked Ladies at this time in 1998? Because Kevin and I had gone to the choir school together. We knew each other since we were kids. They had grown up like, well, you know, the band used to come see the bourbons all the time so when this was going on they talked to me because i i think you know things were so i did they'd had a lot of success in canada they were about to do something very um there's the look people oh yeah sorry people who are listening because 99.9 can't see this right now but kevin hearn is in of course i just had james b over here so he's yeah so anyway shout out to uh kevin hearn who by the way we did two two back-to-back episodes

and the second one was all about i'm going to talk to you about him in a moment but all about gourd downey and how kevin was there for gourd in his uh final years anyway uh kevin is a sweetheart i just want to say hello to kevin hearn kevin is a sweetheart and um want to say hello to Kevin Kevin is a sweetheart and when the guys first asked me it was interesting because it was when Kate and I were really in New York and I was like you know and that's all we were doing we weren't on the road and I didn't want to leave New York

and I said look I can help you guys but you know this is a great gig anybody will take it and then we started talking Tyler in particular and just saying that they really wanted the familiarity of someone they knew and were close to i could bring my ham and my clavinet on the road as before mentioned by one of the callers right and um you know uh it was really amazing um it was supposed to be a few months,

and then, you know, everything went through the roof, and a few months turned into six months, turned into a year. And 98, just to give it some timelines here. Now, let's also say hi to Tyler, who listens to every episode of Toronto Mic'd, and what a great FOTM Tyler is. Hi, Tyler.

Hello, Tyler. Tyler told me on the record, because it was on episode 1,000, that he learned more about Kevin from Kevin's appearance on Toronto Mike than he ever got from Kevin having worked with him for 25 years or whatever. Okay, so check that out. Now, this is the one week era. but I'll just repeat it that one week goes to number one on the billboard hot 100. Like this is a huge American, uh, hit. And, uh, maybe to get to Brian's question now, uh, is there any moment, like you're touring with bare naked ladies when they're number one in America? That's amazing.

Um, well there are like, I'd say if I can talk about the overall sure um for a second then i'll get specific the fact that the guys were a band like an actual band as we all know in toronto grew up busking and made it by genuine principles of music okay to be inside of that and watch that kind of explode on a world stage was a really interesting thing because, you know, they treated their crew well. They treated each other well. You know, all bands go through whatever they go through,

and B&L went through a lot of stuff you know after I was gone right but it was it was really really an interesting thing for me to sit on stage in front of 80,000 people 50,000 people or whatever and go oh this is this is a lot of people experiencing the same thing at the same time like collective witnessing and for me, as I said, Kate and I had removed ourselves from the whole kind of popularity tract and the whole tract of like, you know, how many shows this week, how many thousands of people, blah, blah, blah, blah, to like playing for handfuls of people in New York. It took all of the kind of romance and distance out of that scale.

It just was like, I don't know, this is actually the same thing. And the guys, the Barenaked Ladies, are just very, very good at what they do. And as Woody from Government Mule said on the horror tour that year, he goes, this is vaudeville, and it's exactly what they do. And as Woody from Government Mule said on the horror tour that year, he goes, this is vaudeville. And it's exactly what it was. I remember when Rufus Rainwright was opening for them somewhere in the south of the Midwest and someone was making gay jokes before, like during Rufus' set. Steve and Ed walked out on stage and started necking.

It was amazing. And the whole crowd just erupted, you know? And I mean that for, for a mainstream band, like, you know, there's one,

that's one thing that I really, that I really remember, you know, that was, that was pretty amazing. I like there, there, and then there,

and then there's also aspects of it that you realize are unappealing and that aren't anything that you need to go near. And I'm sure the guys would attest to that as well, that it's just part of the job. One thing I do remember was at the MTV Awards, we had to do an opening medley of Puff Daddy, who he was called at the time before he was Diddy. Right.

And Who Are Those Guys? Bittersweet Symphony. And like, anyway, we did this medley of all the songs that were nominated that year. It was a hoot. It was really, really good. The Verve. The Verve. And then we had to stand on the red carpet, which is actually a circle at the MTV award. And it's, and it's,

the camera is cheated so that it looks like a straight line. But after, after the intro, I was like, you know what? I'm not going in. Like I, there was no point for me to be there.

I, you know, and I went back to the hotel, the Mondrian, which the after party was at. And so I was sitting on a Lilo next to Lil' Kim and someone else by the pool, and Jimmy and I would always practice yoga on the road together. It was our way of kind of keeping grounded.

But my hotel room overlooked the pool where, like, 2,000 people were gathered. And I said to Jimmy, you know, if we took our pants off and we did headstands and put our butts against that window and toddlers turned the lights on, everybody would see it. So it's like, yeah, it just seemed like a reasonable thing to do. So we did that. And everybody went wild because it just, you know, I just felt on the way up. I was in an elevator with Common and I don't know who else. But it was like, yeah.

And then security came running and we just turned the lights off and left. And we got a really great cheer and got drinks bought when we came back to the pool. I mean, those guys were really good for activities. I mean, also I credit them with taking me around the world. And it was interesting because Kate and I had, like our albums came out in Japan and Asia with Peavine.

And so for me, I was touring with the ladies and Kate and I would open a lot of the segments of the tour. And then I also connected with folks internationally who are still very good friends, including Rocky Roberts, who was running tech, who's worked for Neil Young for years. And then Neil's crew was basically looking after the Horde tour that year.

And Rocky now is a neighbor on Wolf Island. Wow. We've done a ton of things together. So there's all kinds of things that blossom for that, you know? Wow. Just one quick little tag to the story is that uh i recently did a there's a gentleman who put together a book called that night at massey hall and fans submitted photos so my photo of bare naked ladies at massey hall is in this book i'm just shouting it out

yeah somebody tweeted at me like am i getting royalties i'm pretty sure i waived my right to all those royalties when i submitted my picture to be in the book but yeah the uh i love bernic ladies uh and and it's worth noting that you also play on uh what albums you play on gordon of course and uh born on a pirate ship right you're on those albums yeah cool cool cool ben okay now i want to i don't want to wrap up i have something more recent I want to play a little of and then catch up with what things are at right now but I just want to ask you if you don't mind if you have a moment I'm a big Tragically Hip fan and you mentioned that you and

you and Kate toured with the Hip right? Yep we did. What can you share with us about that experience speaking of that night at Massey Hall I mean the Hip of course did you ever at Massey Hall, I mean, the hip, of course. Did you ever play Massey Hall? I should know this.

Oh, I played Massey Hall since I was a kid. The first time I played Massey Hall was with Kevin Hearn at the choir school when we were like 10 and 11 years old. What a dumb question. I played there with a bunch of folks, including the hip, including Kate and I played there with a bunch of folks, including the hip, including Kate and I played there. There was a night that Kate and I opened for the hip there. It was one of the early nights of, I think it was the Music at Work tour.

Yeah. What do you want to know? No, man. Just, I should know this, because I just went through this book with the gentleman last week. But, no, I would love to know, like, what was Gord like? What was it like playing with the hip? Just anything you could share about the late great Gord Downie maybe. Well, what's interesting being on the road with the hip is that

when you play Brandon Manitoba, it's not the cover of the entertainment paper. It's the cover of the paper. Right. You paper. Right. You know? Right. And, you know, what's really weird was that they always say, oh, they never made it in America. It's like, they fucking made it in America.

It's just that the scale of events in Canada was so kind of iconic and national that, of course, that wasn't going to be the way it was in the States. But they were playing arenas and theaters all over America. Like like you know any any other band would be you know like oh yeah they're they're doing really quite well in america but you know in terms of you know people tattooing their faces and stuff you know what i think it is i think it's that uh i don't know if we have a gauge of success in america for a Canadian band, maybe it might be something like Rush or something. And I think that basically we, you know, when you look at,

what are, what's their, there's other, Nickelback now, you know, these Canadian bands that can, are. I mean, Justin Bieber, right? I mean, like, like the word Drake, like there's lots of like international sensations. I mean, not to mention, like when I was talking to Neil Young, like actually at the bridge school after, no, before the bridge school concert with the Barenaked Ladies at his house the

night before at dinner, he was like, I didn't want to leave Canada. He said, you know, like I had to, you know, he wasn't complaining. He was just saying like, he had to, he had to go at that point, you know, like, I had to, you know, he wasn't complaining. He was just saying, like, he had to go at that point, you know, literally go and make it work in Los Angeles, right? You know, I do think he came back, though. I actually think he's here now, but that might be a pandemic thing. He's around. He never really left, right? He's never really left. I mean, but, but I'm just,

you know, there's a thing like where it's like, uh, there's a great many people in America. So, you know, and also there's people who are famous musicians in America that you and I have never even heard of because they're living in the margins, which are quite big there. Right. So when you're dealing with the population in Canada and you get a band that becomes as iconic as The Hip, it's not going to be repeated in other countries but that having been said, in terms of Gord

I think what was interesting for me, again because Kate and I grew up in a band and knew that for a decade but then our lives in New York were much different. To go back again into a band full and see all those relationships that had been started

and identities that had been ingrained when they were kids and just go, what's the big deal? They all thought that we'd made Gord's solo record with them. It was like, don't you guys talk to one another? I called a band meeting in Philadelphia, and Gord said to me me this is the first band meeting we've had in five years and I was like really I couldn't tell you know um but but it was you know it's it was like an amazing privilege and as we said to them at the time it's like you guys don't really need us you sure you want us here you know um working with Mark Rieken in the studio was wonderful.

And I think it felt good, as challenging as it was, to bring a woman into that environment and perform. And even for me, just playing organ and piano with them, like it was a thing. But they, again, because of the iconic nature their identities of bands it you know there's something that you never want to crack or like it it does its thing extremely um efficiently let's put it let's put it that way so we um we uh had um So we had, I mean, I'm trying to think of some of the, there were just so many crazy moments. I think, like, playing the Fillmore in San Francisco was great.

Kate and I opened the show with our band. Our drummer's family is all from that area. And then there's online, if you look up Flamenco from the film, where you can see Kate and Gord doing just a beautiful duo. And the way the crowd erupts when Kate starts singing, it's something. Wow. You know? And then I think Gord, you know, I had a turntable on the road, and we'd have it in the hotel rooms and always buy vinyl and play it,

you know, before shows. And afterwards we'd hang out and listen to records. And Gord was starting to do the solo stuff. And even when he came to Wolf Island and did the literary festival, we were talking about it and he said to me the fact that you can get up with a guitar and just stand in front of people and you don't need

a lot, right? I think that's what we all as musicians want to experience and one of the challenges of being in bands is that your identity becomes so attached and dependent upon so many other people and contingencies but if everybody in the band is

doing their work that way right like from the drummer up if everybody feels like i've got stuff that is meaningful and challenging for me to do you can completely surrender into that fold and and it's a generous thing to do to play in a band like the hip and to just completely um surrender to that mark like because i would say with the the both the ladies and the hip it's like you know what was really needed was my right leg there was a whole host of other things but you know and and isn't it thrilling to be on stage and doing that to that many people? And, you know, again, you learn, among other things, that, oh, yeah, it doesn't demand all parts of me.

My ego doesn't need to be exercised. This isn't an identity exercise. This is an exercise in contributing to something that's occurring and doing it in a sincere way so that you're not just like dialing it in, right? So if you're doing it in a sincere way, it's going to present challenges. You know, I think some of the crew of The Hip were challenged by having Kate and I there. I know it by 3 a.m. phone calls I received in my hotel room. No, not from the band, but from the crew. But it's like, again, it's like you're dealing with folks

who've worked together for a very long time, and things can come in and threaten. But really, it doesn't do that. It just adds. And when I watch some of those videos like the film where someone brought up a couple of months ago, it's just like, wow, yeah, it's beautiful. I feel very blessed to have done that.

And as I feel blessed to play with all the people I've played with in New York on any given night, music is a privilege. Well, I mean, we covered some of these bands you played with but and you briefly brought up the the real statics of course but i mean when i look down the link you know and you mentioned crash test dummies and we talked about bare naked ladies and we talked about tragically hip but uh yeah extensive number of fantastic musicians that you've played with through the years it's quite the uh quite the resume as they say so it's just it's just pretty damn awesome so my friend like i know i've kept you a long time i promise you this is winding down i just love it so much but i'm just gonna

play a little bit of something super recent and then we'll talk about current day and uh let's play the ropes Come on, let's clap so glad to let you in. Remind me of everything beautiful makes me sing. That's you You When it's late and I'm feeling tired I call you up with my heart Cause I don't wait when I'm inspired

By the dream that we've acquired. And I can find you here, but time won't keep us. Just like you're sitting by my side. Cause there's the song, and then there's you. Somewhere in between the two There's the dream That we're apart You touch the curtain On my heart

I felt it part Like a waterfall I just wanted to play something recent. Tell me what we're listening to here, Chris. Oh, that's Waterfall from the album I put out last year with my trio, The Ropes, which,

speaking of the Bourbon Tavern Choir, Jason Mercer, who now is a denizen of Wolf Island, is the bass player and Pete Bowers is the drummer.

Kate singing on that track. So that album we recorded live here at the hotel and then Tony Shearer, Michael Blake

played on it in new york mickey raphael did some powerpoint amazing in nashville and um and yeah so so the ropes it kind of has become like a resident band here on the island um and that trio has done innumerable works um but but yeah we're in the process of making a new record as well. And that video was directed by Sean Theroux, which is a trip. Oh, it's a fun event. For people who are wondering, what's that opening part there? That's all part of the video.

It's really a visual thing. But you have a YouTube channel where you can find all this great stuff. And again, a wonderful catalog of music. And it's almost like you're, Oh, here the live applause. This is of course a live production here, but you know,

you're, you're living on Wolf Island. You're, you're, you're out there just this whole, this whole community. I am going to visit you, uh,

in on Wolf Island at some point. I promise. Amazing. Do an episode while you're here. Honestly, honestly, I'm game for all that stuff. Are you kidding me?

One day Pete Fowler phoned me up and he goes, Oh, we're going to be at the opera house. We're doing a, like a three hour tribute to Martin Streak. He had passed away 10 years earlier. And I literally threw my studio in a bike trailer and bike to the opera. I'm on the West end.

I biked to the opera house, set it up in the lobby. And for three hours, I recorded for three hours, people like whatever, whoever came by, uh, Alan cross may pots,

you know, everybody. And I would totally, I can't bike to Wolf Island. Maybe I can, but I would probably drive to Wolf, uh, drive there for sure.

I would do that. Do it. I mean, this whole, this whole place is wired for broadcast and recording, too. Amazing, Chris. Before I read the outro here, is there any story or something you wanted to say

that you forgot to say? This would be the chance to say it. Oh, man. I feel so connected to Toronto. i i mean i i'm so grateful for having grown up there um you know it was i was exposed to music from such an early age um i received a great musical education there at the conservatory in the choir school and then from the time i was like 12 13 years, sneaking into the turning point to play gigs, like I said, working at the Bamboo,

coming up with such a huge Jamaica community, getting inducted into reggae and hip hop and R&B at an early age. Everybody would come through there. If I think of the pianists and organ players that I saw growing up, from Jimmy Smith to McCoy Tyner to Dorothy Donegan. Like, I just feel, you know, like between Toronto and New York, like I feel like I just was given the best exposure and education possible. And then, you know, the nice thing about being on Wolf Island is that we've got the water and

space, but then we've also created this music. There's a 1951 Steinway here. There's two Hammonds. The whole thing is, you know, there's four venues. So it's really lovely that people can come from all over the world and play here and replay here regularly. So I don't know.

I mean, I just, I guess I sense a gratitude. I'm happy it's spring. I am distressed over what's happening on the planet um and i'm trying to educate myself and stay in tune all the time so that i can be of service um and i hope everybody is safe and happy and just you know finding ways through this it's it. It's a challenging time. Chris, thanks for doing this, buddy. I really enjoyed this.

Me too, man. Thank you. And that brings us to the end of our 1018th show. You can follow me on Twitter. I'm at Toronto Mike. So, Chris, how can people, do you want to drop your website or is there somewhere on social media? How would you like people to track you? Yeah, well, as you said, I have a YouTube channel, which is Hugh Christopher Brown, which you can join.

If you look at Wolf Island Records, it's great because my page is there, Kate's page is there, mine and Kate. And then all the artists I work with, like Dave Corley, Suzanne Jarvie, you know, Analogues may have a new record coming out, Stephen Stanley. I mean, it's just on and on. The Pros and Cons program. If you go to Wolf Island Records, you'll see everything that's happening, including the Garden Party, which is going to run in June, which is a week of music and agriculture here on the island. I'd invite everybody to come and attend. and agriculture here on the island. I'd invite everybody to come and attend.

And yeah, just, and also look up the Hotel Wolf Island and Wolf Island Commons, which is our not-for-profit dedicated to the arts and agriculture. I mean, and I'll bring it full circle here before I thank the sponsors to say, I saw Stephen Stanley play live. I think we're going back to,

I think October 2021 here, not that long ago, but he was live in Pete Fowler's backyard. That's right. So it all comes full circle. Thank you, Pete. Our friends at Great Lakes Brewery are at Great Lakes Beer. Palma Pasta is at Palma Pasta. Sticker U

is at Sticker U. Ridley Funeral Home, they're at Ridley FH. Canna Cabana are at Canna Cabana underscore. And Ryobi are on Instagram at Ryobi underscore Canada. See you all tomorrow. And I've kissed you in places I better not name