Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - Chris Zelkovich: Toronto Mike'd #205

Episode Date: November 22, 2016

Mike chats with sports media critic Chris Zelkovich about his years at The Toronto Star and Yahoo! and the current state of Toronto sports media.

Welcome to episode 205 of Toronto Mike, a weekly podcast about anything and everything. Proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, a local independent brewery producing fresh craft beer. And Chef's Plate, delivering delicious and locally sourced farm fresh ingredients and refrigerated kits directly to your door. Farm-fresh ingredients and refrigerated kits directly to your door. I'm Mike from torontomike.com, and joining me this week is sports journalist Chris Zeljkovic. Welcome, Chris. Glad to be here, Mike. Zeljkovic, that's an Irish name, right?

Yes. It used to be O. Zeljkovic, but we dropped the O. You know, O is grandfather of. That's where that came from, O'Brien. Yes, right. A little Irish history. But yeah, Chris Zalkovich, pleasure to have you here. And I mentioned when I had Damien Cox over here, my family was a Toronto Star family, which meant that every morning that paper was at the front door.

And that was the paper I read. And I had a sequence. Like, I'd like to read my sports first, and then entertainment, and then the first section. I think that was my order. But you were mandatory reading. And I never missed one of your columns in the Toronto Star. Oh, that's always nice to hear. It's always nice to hear that there are still people who read newspapers. Oh, I didn't say I still read newspapers.

And we're going to talk a lot about you, and I have a lot of questions for you. But if it's cool with you, I need to update the listeners on a very important development, some investigative reporting that I've done that I need to share with everybody. Okay, go ahead. Very important. It's my show, right? I guess I can just do it. Very important. It's my show, right? I guess I can just do it.

So, last episode was Dwight Drummond, who is on CBC News now. And, you know, his career began at Electric Circus, where he was a security guard in the late 80s. Not one of the dancers. No, but it's funny you mentioned the dancers. So, we're chatting, because I had just had had and i'm pointing the the audience doesn't know i'm pointing to maestro fresh west but he had just been over here and he got discovered more or less discovered he was uh discovered if you will for a major label by stevie b because stevie b was at electric, and Maestro was performing there. And Maestro referred to this cowboy dancer, a popular dancer known as Cowboy, on Electric Circus. Oh, I do remember.

Do you? I do, actually. Okay, good. No, I wasn't an avid watcher. It was one of those things you'd come across on a Saturday afternoon, I think it was, with commercials on whatever game I was watching. And it was something about it. You kind of had to keep watching.

No, I'm glad you remember. Because at first I thought you might be putting me on. But that's great. So Maestro called him Soul Train meets Dukes of Hazzard. That was Maestro. And then Dwight Drummond's talking about the same guy. And Dwight said he had heard a rumor once that this guy, the cowboy dancer, was Dalton Pompey's father. Oh, my God.

Blue Jay Dalton Pompey. And so I'm like, wow. He just drops this briefly and we move on. But it's stuck in my head. So I actually, through Twitter, through the magic of Twitter, I contact Dalton Pompey and I ask him, was your dad a dancer on Electric Circus? Dalton says, yes, he was. Okay, so, whoa. So now I need to, furthermore, also on Twitter, by the

way, is Dalton's mother, who's married to Dalton's father, whose name is Kenrick Pompei. I find out, after doing some more digging, that Kenrick Pompei is absolutely the dancer from Electric Circus we knew as Cowboy. Isn't that amazing?

That is. Woodward and Bernstein could not have done a better job. Thank you. That's how I felt. So this is the news, and I'm writing about it on Toronto Mic. Wow. Can you believe it? Dalton Pompey's dad is the cowboy.

But then it gets better. his dad is the cowboy. But then it gets better. It turns out somebody on Facebook who's like this house music aficionado says, you know, Kenrick, who was cowboy, released a single in 1992 as Kay Pompei, a house single. I'm like, but this can't be true. It turns out he has this disc. He sends me a picture of the disc. The song is called Summertime, Summertime. And my mind's exploding at this point because not only is Dalton Pompei's father the dancer from Electric Circus, but he had a single, and according to my friend

who used to do the charts for a station called Energy 108, which was playing this kind of music in 92, this song, for being CanCon, I suppose, was played on the radio. This was a popular Energy 108 single called Summertime, Summertime. Gets a little better here.

The backup vocals and the authorship of this song is an up-and-coming Toronto artist, not yet globally famous, but up-and-coming artist, Debra Cox. Sorry. That one went by me. That's okay.

Deborah Cox, who had some success throughout the world. But I'm going to play for everybody, and I want you to get a taste of this and tell me what you think. This is Kay Pompey with Deborah Cox performing Summertime Summertime back in 1992. Coincidentally, or maybe not coincidentally, the same year Dalton Pompey was born. And the first World Series victory. And the first, yes, and a key double by Dave Winfield.

And was that the 11th inning, I think? I believe so, yes. So this is Debra Cox here, but we have to let it wait for Kay Pompei here. I see you're dancing, Chris. No one else has ever said that. Fell out of bed, checked the headlines There's a heat wave starting good times When it's hot, gotta hit the spot Where the water's cool and the girls are hot The beach is packed, gotta get on track I can't hold back, hit it with a new jack

I make a dance and your body is sore To be rocking like never before It's serious Dalton Pompei's father Amazing, and then you're going to tell me next that The third guy on the left In the dance party picture Is Drake father. Amazing. And then you're going to tell me next that the third guy on the left in the dance party picture is

Drake. I wonder how old Drake is. No, it can't be. No. The math isn't going to work there. That's close. But I'm telling you, this gets a tiny bit better, hopefully, and I don't want to tease everybody, including myself, but I did have a DM conversation on Twitter with Dalton

Pompei about this, and I suggested to Dalton that this be his walk-up music. I love it. He said that's a great idea. So take it for what you will. That's a great idea. I don't know what will happen when I tune in a Jays game at the Dome and Pompey's coming to bat and I hear summertime, summertime. Oh, it's got to be.

It's got to be. You may have revolutionized baseball on to be. It's got to be. You may have revolutionized baseball on your own. It would be amazing. And then, furthermore, of course, I invited him over here to talk, and he said maybe in late November, he said, so I'm going to try to get Dalton

on this show, but it's funny because most guys get a blue jay on their show and it's all about baseball. I'm going to have a blue jay on the show and spend three quarters of the show talking about his father's electric circus yeah past you got to uh you got to see if that'll come along too i think the oh that'll be the show would be gold with that oh no as long as he wears the cowboy so there you go that's a that's where we're at right now this This is important. People say, oh, we need independent investigative journalism, and they talk about Jesse Brown and Canada Land,

but no, this is what you need, right? You need Twitter. You need, yeah. And you need a guy who's curious enough to put all the pieces together. I'm impressed. Thank you. No, if you're impressed, then this is the good, right? This is not the bad or the ugly. This is the good, but we'll get to that. So one more thing to share, and then it will stop being about me, I promise. But in this song, it takes a while to simmer in,

but I watched The Crown on Netflix, a 10-episode series about Elizabeth, the queen. And I'm just here to say it's amazing. 10 episode series about Elizabeth the Queen and I'm just here to say it's amazing and if you have access to Netflix you should watch The Crown because it's this is Hans Zimmer who put together this theme

which is great too but I don't know if you've had a chance to sample The Crown yet no no I haven't gotten around to that one yet very good and if it's not good you can blame me for teasing you. So I highly recommend The Crown. Chris, that beer in front of you, that's going home with you. That's from Great Lakes Brewery,

and they want you to enjoy their locally craft brewed beer. Okay, thank you. And I have more for you than not just booze, but I've got to give you some food. If that's cool, I'd like to send you a link where you can pick a couple of your favorite meals, and Chef's Plate will deliver these meals to your door. Oh, wow.

And they'll give you the portions and the easy-to-follow instructions. Anyone can do it. Even I did it. But somebody's going to follow those instructions, and you're going to have a healthy, locally-sourced meal. Actually, you're going to have two of them. Jeez.

You must have me on more often. You'll be at my door every couple of days. I'm hungry and thirsty, Mike. By the way, if anyone out there wants to try chefsplate.com, use the promo code TORONTOM Toronto Mike to get your first two plates free. Do it, and they'll send you a couple of meals. And Chris, you're getting a couple of meals. And now we start with your,

if it's cool with you, I want to start with your career. And then I have some questions for you. Some from me, some from the Twittersphere. Okay. Don't mess with the Twitter sphere. No, at your peril.

So I discover you at the Toronto Star, but maybe we could rewind a bit and tell me how you start in journalism, and then we'll get you to the star. Okay, well, I was one of those lucky people, or maybe not, who decided pretty early in life what I wanted to be. I think I was probably 15 or 16 when I decided that sports writing was what I wanted to do. So I was pretty focused on that. Unfortunately, I wasn't so focused on the rest of my subjects in high school, so I didn't exactly graduate. There were no scholarship offers, shall we say.

So I went to, literally picked a place on the map, which is unbelievable that I would put my future in such a random decision, but I ended up at Sheridan College in Oakville. I didn't even know where Oakville was, but I had an aunt and uncle who lived in Toronto and they were going to put me up. What I didn't realize, of course, was for the free room and board, I would have to get up at about 5.30 every morning and catch the GO train to Oakville and then walk two miles to the school. Oh, right, right. And anyway, obviously, I persevered through that.

I started out at a local newspaper called the Oakville Beaver. Then by sheer luck, ran into a guy named Ken McKenzie who ran the Hockey News in Montreal. He offered me a job. I went there, lasted there for a couple of years, did a little freelancing, came back to Toronto, and got a job at the Mississauga Times, which no longer exists.

And then when it went down the tubes, I managed to land at the Toronto Star. I worked there for, oh, I would guess 15 years as an editor in various sections, including sports. And then one day there was a posting for a job sports media writer, and they said they had no idea what they wanted, but make a pitch. I made a pitch. They liked it, and the rest was pretty much history. I like the history.

I like the history. So I remember, these are the aforementioned Chris Zelkovich pieces that I never missed. There was the good, the bad, and the ugly. The good, the bad, and the ugly, yes. I don't think I ever paid a licensing fee for that, so I hope the statute of limitations is expired. That's okay. I'm playing this song now, and I'm not going to pay anything either. Just inspired by you. All right, well, first of all, so the Hockey News, just to go back,

and then we'll get to a lot of star questions. So the Hockey News, they liked what they read in the Beaver? So they liked the cut of your jib? You know, I'd like to think that. I think I came cheap. I think that was really the number one requirement. That's still a high requirement. Exactly.

All right, cool. So the Hockey News, to me, that high requirement. Exactly. All right, cool. But the Hockney is big. I mean, that's a big, to me, that changes your life. Oh, yeah. I mean, I was... No offense to the Oakville Beaver, which is an important newspaper.

Well, you know, I was, what was I? I was 21 years old and I had covered the Oakville Blades in the Ontario, Central Ontario Junior B semifinals in, I guess it was into May, maybe into April. And then in June, I was standing in the Montreal Canadiens, or at least at the forum in Montreal, interviewing Sam Pollock.

Yeah, it was crazy. It was the general manager. Yeah, it was crazy. I thought, my God, how can this be? And, you know, a couple of months later, I was interviewing my boyhood heroes, Frank Mohavlich and Serge Savard and Guy Lafleur. It truly was amazing. It's great. And then, of course, you mentioned Mississauga Times and then Toronto Star. Are you the first person? Do we call you a media critic, a sports media critic?

Yeah, I think that was the title of the job, sports media critic. So are you the first sports media critic that the star had writing? I was the first full-time one. I followed Ken McKee, who sort of did it part-time. I think he wrote one column a week. But it didn't involve probably the biggest part of my job, or at least part of the job I was best known for, which was doing the critiques of the weekend sports coverage.

And, you know, again, I have to credit, was it Sergio Leone? No, he was the director. Whoever wrote that music. Oh, Ennio Morricone. Oh, okay, Ennio Morricone. All right, so I should credit him. I should also credit Rudy Martzki of USA Today, who was the first media critic that I ever saw. And I wouldn't say I stole ideas from him, but he gave me some inspirations and I took it and ran with it as far as doing the weekend reviews went. So how tough is it, though, to be a media critic? Because you're one of them, but you're going at them. So what is it like? You bump into these people, right?

This small world? I think that was the biggest challenge I had when we first ironed out the details of the job. I sort of thought that's all I would be doing. And the sports editor at the time, Steve Tustin, said, no, no, no, no. We want you to do features on people in the business and developments in the way things are going and stuff like that.

And I said, well, you know, we've got a bit of a problem here. You want me to be tough and not be afraid to say, you know, pointed things about people, and then you want me to go and interview them a week later? Yeah, that's got to be... That's tough. And I'll tell you, I walked into a lot of rooms looking over my shoulder because, you know, I'd written something nasty about somebody the week before. And there I was at a press conference where there was an announcement that they had been promoted or whatever. And I had to go and do an interview with this guy.

There was a lot of icy stares and a lot of uncomfortable moments. I mean, can you name names? Who are some of the people you maybe gave them some fair criticism and didn't take it very well? Well, you know, that was the amazing thing was there were a few who didn't take it well, but I was shocked at the number of people who either completely ignored it, or at least they didn't get back to me on it. And then when I met them, we're quite friendly. Okay.

Yeah, no, exactly. I mean, you know, there were a few, I'll never forget one guy was Jim Ralph, the radio play-by-play guy for the Leafs. And Jim, well, let's just say he's a bit of a homer. And, you know, and I may have got a little carried away in coverage of that i think it was one of those things where i had to write a column a day during the uh the leafs playoff run back in whenever that was early 2000s oh yeah the pat queen era yeah and um so i really went to town on jim and i ran into him on a well a friend a friend of mine

had uh put together a foursome for a charity golf tournament. And I think somebody dropped out, so he called me. And he said, I'll be riding with Joe Bowen today. And Chris, you'll be riding with Jim Ralph. And I never forget when I shook hands with

Jim and he just looked at me and he goes, yeah, I think I know the name. You know what? Go ahead, sir. But by the name. You know what? Go ahead. But by the ninth hole, we were buddies. Oh, good. I hear he's a very nice guy.

Homerism, real briefly, since you brought it up, don't you think it's okay for the regional broadcast crew to be home? I mean, I think you mentioned Joe Bowen. Is there a bigger Homer than Joe Bowen? No. No, and there is a difference between the regional crew and the national crew. And I know a lot of people used to say, you know, I want my Blue Jays announcers to be pro-Blue Jay. And my answer would always be, well, if they were, you know, if it was the fan 590, if it was Jerry Howard doing the games in this market,

I would agree with you. But this is a national broadcast. You know, it needs a different standard. But I think Jim, and he has improved, but I think back then he was, even for a hometown broadcast, and it wasn't so much that he was a homer. My real problem with him was that every call against the Leafs was a bad call, and every call that didn't happen was a bad call. And every call that didn't happen was a bad call. And half his commentary was about the referees missing calls against the Leafs.

So that was really the big issue, not so much the homerism. Sure, because when it comes to, for example, calling a goal, we don't expect, you want your regional home team to call the goal that, you know, your team scored differently than the other team. Home runs, for example. Buck Martinez calling out, get out, get out. You know what I mean?

He's literally telling you he wants that ball to go out. He doesn't say that when the other team hits a home run. But you're right. It's different when you sort of have these glasses. I don't know. They're rose-colored glasses. They're tinted somehow. Every call against you, you're getting screwed.

And then the calls that are for you are fine. You're right. That's where it becomes a bit difficult. glasses are tinted somehow that yeah every call against you you're getting screwed and then he calls it or for you or fine like it's you're right it's that's where it becomes a bit difficult and also it just it becomes bad entertainment i mean i don't tune into a game to listen to some guy whine about the refereeing all the time and that's unfortunately the there was a period when i think that's what it was right and bad refereeing explains the drought 1967 i think that's due to bad refereeing. 60 years of bad refereeing. Well, no, I actually, there are some people who will tell you that the,

not in hockey, but in baseball, for example, that the umpires are anti-Toronto because we don't want Toronto in the World Series because look at our numbers and we'll get into that later. But there, I always find it, they point to these decisions that have cost us world, you know, it's just petty. These are the same people who believe there, but I always find it, point to these decisions that have cost us world,

you know, it's just petty. These are the same people who believe that the mafia killed Kennedy. It's funny you mention that because a buddy of mine has decided, you know, back to the 9-11 truther stuff, like he's decided like, how can a plane hit the Pentagon? There's no photos of this plane.

And it's like, oh my goodness, like put back on the tinfoil hat go vote for trump so you you were a sports media critic uh in at canada's largest newspaper uh still is i think yes i believe it's still hanging in there um and uh you you're not there anymore so uh but the role is gone so So what happened? Why did you leave the star? Well, the first thing I remember when I got the job, I sort of thought to myself, well,

this, this is a weird job and something's going to happen either. I'm going to go completely nuts sitting there for, for 15 hours on a weekend, watching sports on TV, or somebody in the corner office is going to look at the lineup and say, we're paying a guy to do what? So I honestly never thought the job would last more than a couple of years.

And in fact, actually, it lasted, I guess it was 13 or 14 years. But I talked with Ed Sherman, who was a sports media critic for the Chicago, or was for the Chicago Tribune. And this was, oh, I was probably five years into the job. And he said, you're not, you're not making a whole lot of plans to make this your career, are you? And I said, oh, why not? He says, well, you know, the first time, the first time hard times hit and ad revenue goes down and they start playing. He said, this, this job is gone. Like this is a luxury job, you know.

And I said, well, good point. And he lost his, probably a couple of years before the Star decided that they couldn't have a full-time media critic. And I think my last, oh God, I guess it was my last four years at the Star, I was a football writer. I was a general writer for baseball, hockey, tennis, whatever, and a sort of a part-time media critic. So that's really what happened. And after being at the Star for 30-something years, the job had ceased to be fun. And I just sort of thought, you know, they were offering buyouts. And I thought, this is go uh do do some things that I want to do and uh you know take take the money and run kind of thing was this a uh like a voluntary yeah it was a ball yeah

because I think the globe's doing that right now the globe the national oh yeah it's I mean everybody's doing it I think the sun's even doing it now so and I believe this how it works but they have like their x number we need x number of voluntary and if they don't get to x now there's involuntary. And this is like a union thing where it's your, correct me if I'm wrong, but in most cases, they go with the new people first. Is that like, what's that called? Last in, first out?

Yeah. Well, once they've gotten the people who take the, what they call the voluntary separation plan. I always love the VSP. Anyway, it's a buyout. So they've got the number of people who take that. And then, yeah, then when they need to cut more, then it's the first ones to go. For example, at the Star now,

Sean Fitzgerald, Chris O'Leary, and Laura Armstrong, the soccer writer, they're all on the list to go. In fact, Sean's already left. And they were just basically the last hires. You're right. They were the fresh media people. I know I was going to ask about this later, but Sean is now

at The Athletic. Maybe I'll ask it now because I'm learning that when I say I'll get to something later, I don't always get to it. Nothing's worse. I'll listen back to an episode, and I wanted to get to that. Oh, I never get to something later, I don't always get to it. Nothing's worse. I'll listen back to an episode, and I, oh, I wanted to get to that. Oh, I never came back.

That really bites. So The Athletic, and it's David Alter is there, and Eric Corrine, and who am I missing? Do you know? Oh, Lott. Lott, the baseball writer. Oh, John Lott, yes. John Lott.

All victims of VSPs, as far as I know. Yeah, I think you're absolutely right. And they're all, so they're writing at The Athletic, and I believe this is going to be a paid site. So you pay like a monthly subscription and you get access to this stuff. So what are your thoughts briefly on that type of endeavor to kind of

offer an alternative, I guess? Well, it's a great idea. But, you know, I think they're really up against it. I mean, getting people to pay for anything on the Internet these days is, well, these days ever, you know, is a hell of a challenge. And, of course, they're known more locally than anything else. So you've got a pretty small potential market. I wish them the best because, I mean, I think, you know,

what's going on in the media business is just horrible and we're all going to be poorer for it. But that's going to be a tough business model, I've got to say. You mentioned getting people to pay for stuff on the Internet is a challenge. On that note, if you guys want more important investigative reporting, like with Dalton Pompey's father, Kenrick the Cowboy Pompey,

patreon.com slash Toronto Mike. Give what you can. Come on, keep this alive because there's important work to be done. I have sitting upstairs a VHS tape of Speaker's Corner outtakes.

Okay? At some point, I'm going to find a VCR and watch this and report back what I've seen. I hope a rocket is mailed on there. Oh, I hope. I don't know. I have no idea, by the way, except I can't believe it's there. And that's there because I mentioned on the Ann Roszkowski episode, I just mentioned I would love to see the outtakes.

And then, magically, Brother Bill, who's in Vancouver. White? White? White Rock. Right. Where I've actually been. I've been at White Rock, amazingly enough, but he sent me, he careered over this VHS cassette, and it's sitting upstairs. I just got rid of my VCR. Sorry, I got to help you out there. That's the thing. I actually don't have a VCR to play it on, so I have it sitting upstairs until I can score one. I need to borrow one for a couple hours. And then I promise to share with the world what I've learned.

Okay. So here, coming back to the media critic job that the star decided was a luxury they could not afford, essentially. Yeah, basically that was it. I mean, they just, yeah, we mean the amount of staff we had, you know, 10 years ago was cut probably by 30% by the time I, you know, I got caught up in it. So, yeah, it was just fewer bodies. And then you take a look at it and you say, well, can we really afford, how important is this job?

And that's even with you, like you said, you were covering football and you were, so you weren't just covering sports media. Oh, no. I mean, you know, if I had chosen to stay, I could still be there. Right. Yeah, it was just the media job. It was time. Yeah, it was time.

And the incredible thing was I remember when the media beat didn't really disappear, but I was taken off it to do all these other things. I got a note from the guy who was the head of the Star's website, and he said, what are they thinking? You're the second most read item on our website. I believe that 100%, because you be, when I, okay, I have David Schultz on,

I've had him on a couple of times. In the newspaper world, I can't, I think he might be the last man standing who actually does a regular, or at least covers this stuff. Yeah. Can you think of somebody? Yeah, I mean, well, the last man standing who actually does a regular or at least covers his stuff. Yeah. Can you think of somebody? Yeah.

I mean, well, the star has Raju Mudar, but I mean, he does one a week and that's about it. So, I mean, it's really, it's back to what it was. That's what Ken McKee did 20 years ago. So, it's sort of gone backwards there. I know, I think I had been doing job, oh God, it can't be more than a few months, and I appeared on the Fan 590 one evening with Rob Longley, who was at that time doing the job part-time with The Sun, and it was supposed to be one hour, and they got so many phone calls, it stretched to two, and I remember thinking to myself, how could there be this many people

interested in this stuff? And it's still, to this day, I mean, I'm doing my weekly media piece on yahoo.com, and I'm still stunned at the number of hits it gets, the comments, the retweets of the tweet on the articles. It just amazes me. Again, I've been doing this, well, this is by 20 years now. And I still can't believe there are that many people who are interested in knowing TV ratings and things like that. Somebody, who was it? Was it Nelson Millman? Somebody said it was a subset of a subset.

I hope I'm not... Yeah. But the fact is that the subset of a subset, it has this appetite, pretty intense, loyal appetite, a ferocious appetite. And there's nowhere to get this anymore. To give a shout out to another web. So I do cover a bit of it on TorontoMike.com because I'm interested in it and it's nowhere else. But there is a website called Toronto Sports Media.

Yes, right. Which Jonah started. He lives in Seattle now, but he was just a fan. And one of the writers there is a guy named Mike in Boston, who I actually had coffee with three weeks ago. Who's not in Boston. He's not in Boston because I had coffee with him

in Toronto and he was here. But these guys, and we talk a lot about this and that, and he's like, he feels almost like he's got a responsibility to write about this because no one else no one the mainstream media is writing about it yeah well i'll just give a little story on that i uh started going to uh well i've been going for a while but i guess i've been doing it for yahoo for about three years now and i took my month's trip to mexico which my wife and I do every year.

I go down to the Yucatan and rent a villa on the beach. And I said, okay, well, I'll resume the column when I get back. Well, I got an email from Steve McAllister, who was the managing editor at the time, and said, can you do anything now? Because I'm getting all kinds of queries as to where your column has gone. For sure. So I now, when I go to Mexico, I actually do my media blog from the beach. It's nice, though. At least you can do it from the beach. Yes. Which is not so bad.

No, technology is wonderful. I got to say, I mean, Yahoo, I always think Yahoo. They were like Google before Google. Yes, right. But what Yahoo did is they became like sort of a content place, like a content creator where Google said, no, we don't want to create the content. We just want to be the gateway to all the content and very different like sort of methodologies. But when it comes to like Yahoo columns, your Yahoo column, I read it. I follow you on Twitter and you'll tweet the link and I'll read every word of it.

And it's like the only Yahoo column I've got to read every week, you know what I mean? So did they reach out to you or did you, like, how did it come that you wrote for Yahoo? Well, that's, I think it's an interesting story. When I left the Star, I decided, okay, look,

actually it was before I left the Star, when they gave the column away, they took it away from me, I thought, okay, you know what, I've had a good run at this. It's like 13 or 14 years. And to be honest with you, I'm sick of it. I really don't want to be writing about this stuff ever again. And so I had all kinds of brilliant things I wanted to be writing about, and I quickly discovered that no one wants to pay you anything. And so Steve McAllister approached me and sort of said,

well, you know, would you like to write for us? And I said, well, maybe. And then he told me what they were paying, which really wasn't very good. And I sort of thought, well, you know, no, I'm going to pursue other areas. Well, those other areas didn't work out for one reason or another. And then they upped the ante a bit.

And I thought, oh, what the heck? I guess I'll give it another shot. And, you know, again, the reaction was good. So I just figured, what the heck? I guess I'm destined to do this. No, well, thankfully, because otherwise you'd have to start a blog and do it for free. So this is better for you than that. Yes, exactly.

I'm not a good businessman, so I don't think that would work out very well. I'm a worse businessman than you, don't worry. You got free beer. That is true. I actually have, because I'm not a very heavy drinker, which is probably a good thing, because I do have all I can drink free

beer. And for some people, I think that would be invaluable. Or the end of their or their lives maybe it's just another story but in moderation always drink your great lakes beer in moderation uh it's funny that you know all these mentioned schultz being kind of an exception but uh that these media critics are gone because uh i guess when ad revenue dropped they were the some of the first to go i guess like you mentioned you mentioned. They're easy pickings. But it seems to me with Rogers owning so much, like Blue Jays Plus, and then Bell owning Argos Plus, and they all own stuff together, we need, in my opinion, we need the media critic more than ever before.

Well, and more to that point, we need an independent media critic. Somebody who's not tied to Rogers or Bell. Yeah, I guess that's really about it. But that's the two, and you're right. In fact, we're going to start getting to the questions now because these are important.

But when we think of sports media in this country, you've got two stations you think of, one owned by Rogers, one owned by Bell. This is Sportsnet and TSN. And then you have two, in Toronto,

we have these two radio stations you think of, one owned by Rogers, one owned by Bell, right? 590 and 1050. You're right. You're absolutely right. And that's why when the Globe, for a period of time, the Globe had partial ownership by Bell.

There was a period of time. Yes, right. And then that's gone now, and it's been gone for a while. Yeah. And the best thing that could happen for Schultz, because no longer can somebody, you know, when he writes something, you know, positive about the CFL, he doesn't have to have that whole, of course, you're a puppet of the bell. Exactly, exactly. And then if you write something critical of TSN,

sure enough, somewhere on the line, there's going to be a memo sent to somebody. Right. Oh, well, his last episode here got me in mild. He was here last time to talk about Rogers Hockey and all the changes they were doing. And he talked about, who's the chap who was let go, who came from... Gord Cutler.

Oh, Gord Cutler, the producer, yeah. Right. And this got to some negative Rogers stuff coming out. I just asked the questions. He answers whatever. But then I had to deal with Rogers PR on another guest coming on. And I had almost like a little stir of talking to him. Like, we didn't like that episode and here's why.

And I'm like, holy, now this feels like a job. I'm in trouble for the content. So we agree and I know you would agree that now more than ever you need a sports critic and you're still writing for Yahoo. I actually wish you would write more for Yahoo. I hope Yahoo

ups the ante and gets more Chris Zalkovich because we need more. So here let hope Yahoo ups the ante and gets more Chris Zalkovich because we need more. So here, let's start with the questions. Let's start with radio, first of all. So we have Rogers on 590. This is the Sportsnet radio

and then you have the TSN radio at 1050. Do you still make time to listen to either of these two stations? Yeah, I think every time I get in the car, it's one or the other, and sometimes flipping back and forth. It's still, if you're a sports fan, I mean, there's still a great place to get sports talk.

So it really is a must if you're a sports fan in Toronto, that's for sure. What are your thoughts on some of the bigger names at these outfits? The one character I'd be interested in what you thought of his show is Dean Blundell, who does Mornings on 590. Right. You know, he came in with quite a lot of baggage

after what had happened at his previous employment. And I think a lot of people expected him to be a lot more outrageous than he's been, which, of course, he's been sort of a standard sports guy. But I don't know. I really don't know what it is.

There's something missing about that show. It sort of takes me back to the days when John Derringer and Pat Marsden were on. And I just sort of felt I wasn't listening to a guy who really knew a lot about sports, really was into the sports. And I sort of get that feeling with Blundell that it's just another job for him. He's doing his best to sort of absorb the sports world,

but I think he's got a long way to go. There's a definite lack of authority there in my mind. What's the alternative like on 1050? That is, is Landsberg by me? It's Landsberg and Naylor. No, sorry. You know it's funny. Let's tell you, and I've never been a friend.

The only morning radio I ever tune into is Metro Morning once in a while. I don't hear any of this, but Naylor and Landsberg, isn't it? It's amazing. I believe it is. Yes, it is. Because it's more embarrassing for you than for me. Well, it is, but Naylor in Landsberg, isn't it? It's amazing, eh? I believe it is. Yes, it is. Because it's more embarrassing for you than for me. Well, it is, and I've got to admit I don't drive in the car in the morning.

And now we know you're always on 590. Come on, no kidding. Yeah, I haven't listened to it much, which does not leave me in select company. I mean, you know, fortunately for TSN, a lot of it doesn't have that much to do with the people they're putting on the air. It's just where they are on the dial, when they came along, the size of the market. It's tough, right?

Because you have established, I call it the heritage station, like the established sports radio station. And people think that the fan came along and was an instant success, and it wasn't. It took a long time, as I'm sure Nelson Millman would have told you, to get that thing profitable and get people listening. So TSN is facing that same battle, and it's going to take a lot longer for them to crack the market. But the last time I saw ratings, I mean, they were just abysmal for TSN, which isn't really that big a surprise. But Bell's strategy on that is not to make TSN 1050.

They're not worried about it being a high ratings station because it's part of that national network. And that's where they're having some success in other markets. But getting back to Naylor and Landsberg, I don't know, the little bit I've listened to, it sounds a bit forced. I mean, Landsberg's

supposed to be the outrageous one and Naylor's supposed to be the thoughtful guy. And it sounds like they've taken on roles. But is it better than Mike Richards? Because Mike, he's been a guest on this show and a very likable chap.

He cracked open a beer at 9 a.m. That would be Mike. It was a great chat. It was almost two hours. But then he was moved to 1 to 4 and you knew it was just a matter of time because they were paying him the morning show salary and they don't pay that for 1 to 4,

as we know in radio. But is the nailer in Landsberg, is that an improvement over the Mike Richards morning show that was there for years? I think it's pretty much, it's different, but I don't know if it's any better. And it might not matter, right? Because people tune in 590 by default?

Well, I think there's a lot of habit there. I mean, that's, you know, you talk about you being part of a star family. You know, that's what kept the newspaper business going for years was habit. I mean, and it's the same with radio. People just... And it's almost like if you were a Coke versus Pepsi person, something in your brain. It's funny because to this day, I don't pick up the sun in the McDonald's. You know what I mean?

And to this day, I gravitate towards the star because it's like, that's what I read. It's strange. Yeah. You know, getting back to Mike Richards, I mean, I remember I interviewed him just before his show launched. And he went on about how this was going to be the most unique and outrageous radio show ever heard in Toronto. And people wouldn't believe what they were going to hear. And I tuned in and I thought, this kind of sounds like sports radio to me. And, you know, Mike is absolutely hilarious.

I mean, when he was at the Fan many years ago and when he was in Calgary, his bits were Saturday Night Live-like. I mean, they were absolutely hilarious, his take-offs on people. And he came to Toronto and TSN and didn't do it. I do remember those early days on the fan, and he was just funny.

He was sort of must-listened. But I think maybe he got caught up in Corporate World of Bell that they didn't really want him to be that outrageous. I'm not really sure. So if you took, let's say you take, who's a success,

Bob McCowan, okay? Yeah. No, the gold standard. The gold standard, right? If you took his show that's on 590 and you plopped it on 1050 at the same time slot,

my feeling is he would not get nearly the numbers you'd expect because it's almost, it's strange. It's almost like you're tuned in to 590, even though Bobcat gets,

he delivers, but he needs to be on that station to have the level. Is that, am I right? I suspect he would still be number one, but he wouldn't be his number one by as much. No, I think there's definitely,

you know, it's, uh, in fact, I remember Nelson Millman used to complain about the way they did ratings. People would just turn the radio on and they'd leave it on that same station all day. So you got a very, you know, some real distorted reactions on how, who was listening to what. So, yeah, I mean, the brand is definitely a big part of what you're getting there.

And how much does somebody like Dean Blundell benefit from an exciting Blue Jay team? Like we've had the last two, like I can't, personally, I'm a Jay's fan from 83. Like I listened every night for 10 years. But then of course, after the lockout, you listen less and less and less. And then these mediocre, you know, third place in the East, if you're lucky, you don't tune in as much. But the last two years, I'm back to that same fever. It's the same fever pitch. I go to 590 and I listen to Jerry Haworth, who's battling prostate cancer, but caught it early and we should be okay here.

Hope it all works out for him. Yeah. I'm Mike Wilner and all the gang and Joe Siddell and everybody. And I listen to that. And then you're right. That's when you wake up or whatever in the morning, that's the station you're on. Yeah. I'm Mike Wilner and all the gang and Joe Siddell and everybody. And I listened to that. of your grandfather's life. The 40s, I think. Oh, yeah. But the number of, I remember their ratings

in the morning for CJCL were sky high compared to the rest of the day. And it was obvious that people had, you know, listened to the Blue Jays game, turned the radio off

and then flicked it on in the morning and they were stuck with Frank Sinatra and Rudy Valli. Yeah, Perry Como or something. You're right. You're right.

And that's actually a good case study, like how important. So, and this will come into Rogers. We have a lot of things here, but it's all going to come together. But so 590 versus 1050, it's always going to be tough hoeing for 1050. And it sounds like, even though, like we said, you could take a Bob McCallum with a built-in Bob for, you know, decades, plop him on 1050, and some will come with them, but not everybody. It's a lot of the station. A lot of the station, and a lot of it is just time. I mean, you know, maybe 10 years from now, 1050 will be number one.

Who knows? But, you know, that's the kind of period you're looking at as far as getting, you know, establishing themselves. You just, you can't do it overnight. And again, all sports in one city or one mega city, that's a tough, to have two stations to give you sports. That's, you're really splitting a fairly small audience to start with. Subset of a subset of a subset. Yeah, subset of a subset, right? That's right.

And listening to this podcast is the subset of the subset of the subset of the subset. But they're tuned in. They are listening to every syllable we utter. That's the difference. This isn't some background noise. They're focused on us right now. So how do I bring this? So do you have a favorite sports radio program today? Is it Bob McCowan he you mentioned he's the gold standard is he still the best sports broadcaster we have in the city yeah i think you know bob bob you know there's a lot of things you could say that he he's sort of he's sort of in cruise control sometimes and i know i'll tune in at four o'clock uh and and tune out within 15 minutes because it's just guys trading shots at each other,

which I could hear in the neighborhood bar or at the park or whatever. But when he gets it going and when he's on his game, I mean, that's as good as it gets. I mean, great guests. He's not the world's best interviewer, but he also has a lot. He has help now, too, with co-hosts who

can do the serious interviewing. And that's now Damien Cox has that gig. Yeah. So, I mean, he's a good journalist. Toronto Star trained. He's not too curmudgeonly. I mean, I had him here. And he'd come back any time. He's really giving of his

time and everything. But he's not a cuddly guy. There's no warm fuzzies. No, no. But of course, a lot of that is his shtick, too. I mean, that's the role he takes on in that show. But like you said, I think he's good. Well, I think particularly in the interviews. I think he's a good journalist, and he chose.

But we lost, when I say that, like he passed away or something. But Stephen Brunt was fantastic, I thought. He was fantastic with McCowan. And there seems, according to David Schultz, there's been some feud involving Tim and Sid. Yes. So it sounds like we don't get any more Brunt. We won't have any more Brunt until they kiss and make up.

There's no more Brunt on the primetime sports. No, which is too bad because, I mean, I know Damien fairly well, worked with him for a long time. But I thought Brunt did a great job because he was the perfect foil for McCallum. Right. You know, you had McCallum with his outrageous statements, and then Brunt would come along and say, well, Bob, you know, let's get back to reality or whatever.

Whereas with Damien, it's more Bob and Bob, with Damien being a little more curmudgeonly, like you say. But then again, Bob wrote the book on curmudgeon. That's right. Talk about shtick. Yeah. Now, this is a good segue to bring us to television, but Tim and Sid, so they were, I mean, for a certain audience, Tim and Sid were a must-listen kind of radio show on 590.

And then a decision was made to take them off the radio altogether. Now they're just on the TV. What are your thoughts on that? To me, I never thought it made a lot of sense, like maybe a simulcast or something. But I'm not a sports media critic. What do you think? Well, I mean, I'm not a fan of sense, like maybe a simulcast or something, but I'm not a sports media critic. What do you think? Well, I mean, I'm not a fan of the show. I honestly sit there and

just sort of, please, give me some information. I'm not a millennial. I'm older than that, so it feels silly to me a lot. Well, exactly. It's kind of juvenile. And when Tim is your sort of voice of reason, it sort of tells you a lot of what it's about. But, you know, I can also understand that, you know,

I mean, I can't stand hip-hop music, but I understand that there are a lot of people who do. So there obviously are enough people listening to Tim and Sid and enjoying them to make it a success. The funny thing, the thing I didn't quite understand was the placement of the show. I mean, to take them off the radio, well, okay, you're middle of the afternoon, nobody's listening anyway. If you've got two guys that you think can bring in a big audience, then why not move them to

another, you know, a more attractive spot? But of course, then you've got McCowan in that. But now what they've done is they've kind of set up, you know, Sim and Sid versus McCowan. Exactly. And it's the same company. And again, it's probably a different audience. I mean, there are probably far more millennials listening or watching Tim and Sid than there are listening to Bob McCowan. So from that aspect, it's possibly, you know, a wise move, or at least I could understand. Could you draw me a Venn diagram?

I mean, I hear what you're saying, right? Because there's going to be the younger crowd likes Tim and Sid, the older crowd likes, but there's a lot of overlap in that Venn diagram. Well, exactly. There are. And I find it odd that they would kind of have one fight against each other. One for the people stuck in traffic, and one for those who have the luxury of being in front of a screen at that time of day.

Yeah. Unfortunately, I have not seen the TV ratings for Tim and Sid. I've seen some numbers that were really ridiculously high. However, they followed Blue Jays' playoff games. Well, you and I, yes. The music of your life will do well. The music of your life. No, I mean, I always think of Blundell

when I think of that. His numbers, if he just was a potato, you know what I mean? He would have those numbers from the Blue Jay fever that is striking this city. His numbers will go down once the Blue Jays are finished. Then they'll come back up whenever

the Leafs are on. Has Tim said, are they being groomed to replace McCowan? Because I keep hearing McCowan's bored. This is all Schultz, I guess. I asked Schultz. Apparently, McCowan's not taking his call anymore or whatever. But back in the day when he had that unfiltered access in McCowan, there were some interesting nuggets there. One was he's bored.

Is that a negotiation play? That's negotiation. That is Bob McCowan, as good a broadcaster he is, maybe an even better businessman. I mean, he, well, I won't say he did it. However, a rumor, when Bob was about, I think he was a year away from his contract expiring at the fan, and suddenly a rumor appeared that the score was going to hire him away.

And suddenly Bob ended up with a big four-year deal. I hate to point fingers and say where this rumor started. But there were always those rumors. Anytime Bob got near contract renegotiation time, suddenly rumors would pop up about him being offered big deals elsewhere. So, you know, I don't think Bob's bored. I think he's Bob, and I think he's going to be with us for a while yet. That's good, actually, because I enjoy hearing Bob McCowan.

Yeah, like I said, he knows the business, and he knows how to rock around. I have a question from Brian Carstairs on Twitter. He says, ask Chris to broad brush the knowledge level of the new young and entry-level sports reporters in the market who have replaced the... I didn't take the second tweet, but I think replaced the older crowd. There are young people, of course, rising. So do you have some broad strokes for that one? Well, I think in general,

I'm impressed with a lot of the young talent that has come along. And I think the future, I wouldn't say the future of the business is great, but I think the future of reporting is in good hands. Anyone specific you can share with us?

Well, I mentioned Chris O'Leary at the Toronto Star and Laura Armstrong. Unfortunately, they're not there anymore. Those are bad examples. Yeah, exactly. Those two are the kind of standout for me. But I think where we've lost it is with the voices of authority. For example, at the Globe, we had Stephen Brunt a few years ago. And now we have Cahal Kelly.

Well, Cahal is a brilliant writer, but he's not really the voice of authority when it comes to sports. He just hasn't developed that. And, you know, he's relatively young compared to, you know, the people he succeeded. You know, I mean, the Dave Perkinses, the Stephen Brunts, even now the, you know, the Ken Fidlans and the Bob Elliott's have gone. And I don't think, as far as columnists go,

any of them have been replaced. I think that's the biggest loss. What do you think of Bruce Arthur? Bruce is a really good writer. I wish I could write as well as he can. And I would put him in the upper echelon, but Dave Perkins, I think they've been there, done that more often, more in the tradition of the old guys,

like, you know, Jim Proudfoot and Milt Dunnell, who have sort of been around the world. You know, Bruce isn't quite there yet. He may be in 10 years. But I think we've lost a lot of value from those guys who have really sort of been been everywhere and done everything same uh same guy on twitter wants to know if the uh star and son purposely employ antagonists in their sports areas to stir up interest i don't know if he's talking about

steve simmons but i had steve simmons on the show and other than more marty york who i had on the show i don't think i've ever had so much, not hate mail, but people saying I love your show, but I'm not listening to this one. He's really a divisive figure, Steve Simmons. Yeah, no, and I mean, that's again, that's not by accident. That's the role he wants to fill.

And there always seems to be in the newspaper business anyway that there has to be sort of one guy like that. And it usually comes out of the Sun or the Globe and Mail before that. The Globe and Mail had a long tradition

of that kind of guy. Marty York, Don... God, what was that guy's name? Anyway, it was a guy who preceded him. Now, Marty York, people have begged me to stop mentioning him because it's like feeding the trolls and i actually if you listen back everyone listening now i haven't mentioned him in a long time i really haven't i stopped but apparently so but the reason i think he's worthy

of being mentioned is because he spent so much time at such uh an important newspaper like this isn't some guy you know he's not a guy in his basement who blogs and just wants to strip shit or whatever. But are you familiar with his heel turn, like a dub to steal a turn from wrestling? On Twitter particularly, he's become this anti-Rogers, anti-Blue Jays troll. By the way, the guy I was referring to was Don Ramsey. Marty was always a troublemaker. By the way, the guy I was referring to was Don Ramsey. That just came up. Marty, let me see, how can I say this? Marty was always a troublemaker. Marty would always take the opposite approach.

And I don't think that's a bad thing. I think you need a lot of that in a newspaper business, especially in the time when Marty broke into the business. There were a lot of guys who were sort of, they verged on being team shills. And he sort of, you know, they were, they verged on being team shills. And he, you know, he sort of sees that. Unfortunately, Marty wrote an awful lot of stories that weren't true. And he knew.

And there's a lot of plagiarizing. There was some of that. As well. But, you know, like I've written stories that weren't true. I didn't know they weren't true. I was fooled or I was given bad information. But unfortunately, I think in Marty's case, there were too many stories that anybody should have they weren't true. I was fooled or I was given bad information. But unfortunately, I think in Marty's case, there were too many stories that anybody should have known weren't true.

And what do you think of Steve Simmons? He does that, I don't know what it's called these days, but the Sunday one. The Sunday notes. I personally read every word of that when it comes out. I like it. You know, I think he does a good job. I think pissing people off is something he intends to do. You know, you take that for what it's worth. I mean, I, you know,

sometimes it's kind of a cheap way to do things, but, you know, it's just shooting fish in a barrel sometimes. Like, for example, when I was, when I was writing my column at the Star, I honestly, honestly tried to avoid writing about Don Cherry. Mostly because I was bored with it. And how many times can you say the same thing about the guy? But every time I did, the number of hits and emails I got skyrocketed. So, you know, I could see, you know, you just touch, you press the buttons and you get a response. And really in this day and age,

that's a lot of what it's about. So if it means going with the Kessel Eats a Hot Dog Every Day story. And he sat on this show and swore that Shanahan read that article and phoned him up and said something to the effect of like, it's like I wrote it or something.

This is Simmons. And you should see the emails I got about that. Like, does he, like, that can't be true. And I'm like, I go, I just asked, the guy says in the microphone, am I going to go, you're a liar, Steve Simmons. Get out of my basement. Like, you know, I don't know if it's true. I got to ask Shanahan.

But yeah, so they're divisive guys. And Don Cherry is a divisive guy too. The changes at Rogers Hockey, you know, I'm sure ratings will now skyrocket due to Canadian teams being competitive again. They'll probably credit all these, the tinkering they did. Oh, no more Strombo and all that. Well, you know,

the thing about that, does anybody say to you, hey, let's watch the game Sunday night, Ron McLean is on. No. Mrs. McLean says that. Maybe. No. Mrs. McLean says that. Maybe. Maybe, exactly.

But, you know, I mean, it's all about the teams. And, you know, I think in the case of Strombo, you know, that was, I know what they were trying to do. They were trying to get a different audience. But, I mean, how in the world you thought you were going to do that with a 40-year-old guy who wasn't really a hockey guy? I don't quite understand. I think they picked the wrong guy. There could have been somebody else. I don't know who. But was it broken? I say this is a Gary Bettman thing because I say that Gary Bettman wanted, and for what it's worth, I had

McLean down here and I pitched him my theory and he thinks I might be right. So Gary Bettman wanted McLean removed and then they decided to go in a different direction. And then I guess at some point they went back to Gary and were like, can we please bring him back for this reason, that reason? He said, okay, fine. This is my theory and I'm right with that. I don't know if you share that. I mean, I know, you know, Rogers or CBC, TSN, they would all tell you that, you know, no such discussions ever take place. Right. But, you know, they know if Gary Bettman is unhappy with anything they do, they know about it. And he does.

I mean, I've heard he has the fan playing in his office in New York. Wow. So, you know, if it's having anything to do with hockey, he's listening to it, and he's going to be unhappy if they say things to him. And we all know that those Ron McLean interviews with Gary Bettman, we know Ron's very into ethics. Yes.

And very into, he would never softball an interview because they're a partner. This is not something Ron McLean, I don't believe this to be in his DNA. No. Based on my brief interactions with the man. No. You could see this, therefore, Gary wanting him removed because he didn't play nice.

But, you know, their interactions were so small, I think, in the big scheme of things. It was, this was, you know, they got rid of Ron originally to attract a younger audience. And unfortunately, it didn't work. to attract a younger audience. And unfortunately, it didn't work. And, you know, their numbers are up this year, and they're going to be up as long as the Canadian teams are headed to the playoffs. And that's really, you know,

there might be 5,000 people who tune in to the pregame show that didn't tune in last year. But beyond that, I don't think you're going to see any big... No, the game is the star of that. Yeah, you go to see the game. If you want to watch the Leafs, then you know where you're going to be any big... No, the game is the star of that. Yeah, you go to see the game. If you want to watch the Leafs, then you know where you're going to be. It doesn't matter who's calling it.

I always want Bob Cole. I know Jim Hewson keeps showing up. I guess he's got it in his contract. But, you know, you still tune in. Yeah, no, exactly. Exactly. All right, so here's the one question. So I have a fight with a buddy who's adamant that,

you know, in Toronto, I'm not talking about in Canada, in Toronto, this person's opinion is that the Argos are more popular than TFC in Toronto, okay? And we have these passionate discussions, and I'll say, well, they both play at BMO, and you can't compare the audiences, and I'll say, like,'ll say, I have 100 friends and 99 of them are excited about TFC and talk about TFC.

And maybe zero or maybe one is mentioning that the Argos even exist. And I'll do all this anecdotal stuff. And then all he ever does is point to national television ratings. And then he says, case closed. Now, I ask you, a man who covers, for a living,

you cover these ratings and the sports media and stuff. What's your opinion on the Argos versus TFC in terms of popularity in the city of Toronto? Well, I mean, I think the stadium holds about 25,000 people, and

TFC pretty much sells that out. The Argos allegedly averaged about 16,000. It looked like less than that to me this year. So let's just, we'll take them at their word. I don't think they could make that up. So 16,000. But then you look at the TV ratings, Toronto FC is barely, well, barely makes the grade any week.

They've done okay in the playoffs, talking 230,000 nationally. Right. But during the season, they were anywhere between 35 and about 80,000. The Argos, well, they don't, well, they do break them out and the Argos still were pretty close to the bottom of the list. But still, I mean, we're talking about hundreds of thousands of viewers every week.

But do you see Toronto viewers or do you see Canada? Well, I have seen the numbers, which is something the CFL does not want to share, which always makes me think, okay, they're not good. But on the rare occasions when I've managed to ferret them out, they're not bad. On the rare occasions when I've managed to ferret them out, they're not bad. I mean, look, Southern Ontario is the bulk of the population in this country. You couldn't get big ratings without having significant numbers of people watching in Southern Ontario. So as a TV product, there's no question the Argos are far more popular than TFC is. How long that will last, you know, I don't know.

The way they're going right now, they're kind of driving people away. But, you know, the big challenge, of course, for the CFL is to get them to come out to the stadium, and that's another matter altogether.

But, in the scheme of things, the truth is, neither team is very popular. I mean, seriously. I mean, you know.

The same friend who has this argument, a couple of years ago, was having the same argument, Raptors versus Argos. Seriously. The same friend who has this argument a couple of years ago was having the same argument Raptors versus Argos. At some point, he's come to grips that the Raptors are more popular

than the Argos in Toronto. And he's changed it to TFC versus, which is at least there's an interesting discussion. But I have two things. One thing is they move these TFC matches. For example, there's a game tonight I'm going to watch. And I don't watch a lot of TFC, but I'm have to add two things one thing is they move these tfc matches for example

there's a game tonight i'm gonna watch and i don't watch a lot of tfc but i'm gonna watch tonight because it's the semi-finals against montreal i don't know what station it's on yet like i'm gonna bounce around okay is it one or two or three it's it's yeah but it jumps around like it's it's i know if i want to tune in a cfl game i know it's always all the tsn's have all the cfl matches so there's that. And then the second thing I will say is my sense is, I don't have any proof of this, my sense is the typical Argo fan

is my age or older, typically older, and they like to go to a television and tune in channel 30 and CCA 10, whereas a lot of the TFC guys are younger in their 20s and they don't have a cord. They cut the cord. So I don't know what they're doing. Are they streaming? And I don't know how that counts of their 20s, and they cut the cord. So I don't know what they're doing.

Are they streaming? And I don't know how that counts of ratings. Yeah, well, it doesn't unless it's on, for example, Sportsnet, whatever their streaming service is. But the one thing was pointed out to me, and I hadn't thought of this, but I think it makes a lot of sense. Somebody pointed out their son, who's 18 or so, loves the Toronto Raptors. He has never watched an entire Raptors game on TV. He spends an hour every morning watching highlights of NBA games. And I think that's probably what hurts TFC more than anything. They're younger fans.

They don't watch the whole thing live like we do. Exactly. I notice with my kids, although my son does watch a lot of hockey, but my daughter, you're right. And she'll say, oh, I'll say, did you see the Raptor game? And she'll be like, I followed it on Instagram. Yeah, exactly. And they got tweets and whatever.

It's a different world. The sports teams and the broadcasters are going to have to figure out how to tap into that more than they are now. Right. So if someone put a gun to your head right now and said, who's more popular in the city of Toronto, TFC or Argos in 2016? If someone put a gun to your head, what would you say? I would still say the Argos. Okay, my buddy's going to be happy to hear that.

Yeah, I think just based on the TV ratings. That's all you have. There's nothing else to point to. Even like jerseys or hats or anything else you'd point to would tell you TFC is more popular. If we had access to which hat sells better, the Argo hat or the TFC hat, I don't think it would be close. No, I think the Argos don't do a very good job of marketing, that's for sure. Because they haven't. No, no.

But I always root for them. I hope it changes. So this is from James D. NTO on Twitter. He says, what's your take on Sportsnet Blue Jay insiders? And he put insiders in quotes. He says, how can you have insiders if they all

work for the same employer? Like, Shai Davidi is, for example, gets a lot of credit with his insider you know investigation but his checks come from rogers which is signing you know gibby and shapiro and uh i guess that's a fair this is the this is a whole area that and i would love to hear your take on it but like if you get all your blue jay stuff from Sportsnet because they have the games, and then you're getting it, there is a whole... I can almost hear Marty York in the back of my head right now. But there is a sense of bias.

What's the old line? It's not necessarily the bias, it's the perception of bias. Right, the optics. Yeah, exactly. And I think that's a problem they all face. But I think it's sort of up to the individual. I mean, well, for example, let's just take Buck and Pat. There's no question these guys are Blue Jays employees.

Well, they're technically Rogers employees, but they're former Blue Jays. If you cut their wrists, the blue would come out. And there's no question. You listen to the game. These guys are pretty much house guys. But, for example, how do you explain Greg Zahn? I mean, Greg Zahn criticizes management. He criticizes the manager.

He criticizes players. Bob McCowan, there's another one, will rip everybody, including Rodgers itself, and he'll name names in the executive suites. You know, some of this is, you know, the Rodgers, for example,

loves that because then they can point to these guys as well. Exactly. It's almost like they're the designated pitbulls. There is a bit of that. But for example, Shai Davidi, I mean, he's a reporter. I mean, I knew him when he worked for CP, and he was a very good reporter, and I don't see any real drop in the quality of his reporting. He's still objective. However, the problem is when you're employed by the company that owns the team, people

are always going to raise that question. And that's something you can't get away from. And a lot of these like sort of negative discoveries seem to be coming out of like, I want to say Rick Westhead or somebody like that at TSN. Yeah. And it's almost, there's a sense. And I agree with you about Greg Zahn, right? He sort of bites the hand that feeds, but he's almost like. Well, he's their designated pit bull.

Right. And it's usually, and Bob McCowan being an exception, but usually it's a former athlete that gets to be the designated pit bull. I've noticed somebody who played the game because, you know, Don Cherry can do it too, for example, on the hockey side and stuff like that. Yeah, exactly. Well, you know, they call him Zon Cherry with those jackets he's got going on.

But, you know, when it comes down to it, how many people do you hear on any broadcast who will bite the hand that feeds them? And it's few and far between. Exactly, exactly. Barry Davis is, according to Steve Simmons, he's the only source I have on this,

that Barry Davis is out on sports. Have you heard this? No, I haven't. I don't know anything more than, Steve Simmons put it in one of his notes columns. Okay. Yeah, so I don't know if Hazel may. I don't know anything more than, Simmons put it in one of his notes columns. Okay. Yeah, so I don't know if Hazel May. I don't see why.

My only thought was that maybe they don't need two because they have Hazel May and Barry Davis doing that kind of thing. Yeah. And maybe they don't need two. Well, and you know, that would be the reason. If anything is done, it's all about the bottom line nowadays

and more than it used to be. And yeah, that could be, if it's true, I'm sure that's the reason. Steve Leggett asks, is TV a much higher pain... He's missing a word here, but pain medium, I guess, than radio for sports personalities?

Because you get more money on TV than radio, right? Yeah, there's TV at the top, radio below that, and newspapers. Is newspapers... Is that third place? Well below that. That's a shame, radio below that, and newspapers. Newspapers? Is that third place? Well below that. That's a shame, eh? Yeah.

It's a shame. Yeah, it is. Now, you know, that said, you know, Bob McAllen is probably making more money than most of the people in TV. But he's, you know... He's the outlier. He's the exception. Erin Davis is wrapping up a long career in Toronto,

and she once told me, like, people who try to go into radio today are trying to, like, rob a bank after all the money's gone. Because, you know, she was well compensated, but they're gone now, these denunciants. Yeah, exactly. Radio is, well, I think, you know, newspapers are on the edge of the cliff,

and radio is just right behind them. Yeah, it's too bad, though. It's just, I think it's a shame. It's too bad, though. I think it's a shame. It doesn't make our lives any better when there's fewer outlets out there, that's for sure. For sure. In terms of Raptors, is that another...

I said my buddy used to do the whole Raptors versus Argos and then dropped it for TFC versus Argos, where at least he has a fighting chance. What are the Raptors? Those numbers, are they improving the TV numbers for Raptors? Very minimally. I was a little surprised, you know, after their run last year. And they put up some huge numbers in the playoffs.

And this season started out, it's probably around where it was last year. And the thing that's disappointing of that is that last year, their ratings went down from the year before. So actually, you're, you know, they haven't recovered anything from two years ago, which is a, well, I think we're getting back to the watching the highlight shows. Yeah, because the NFL sees numbers dropping, and I think it's just a general overall...

I think, exactly. I think it's just the malaise that's hit the whole business, and it's, again, I think fueled by the younger crowd that does not want to spend three and a half hours on a Sunday afternoon watching football, or even two hours watching an entire basketball game on a weeknight oh i just because my kid my kid i mentioned my my oldest kid will watch a lot of hockey like a crazy amount of hockey

uh he stays up to watch the oilers because that's his b team now that they got young guns over there but i like i'm always trying to get him to watch a raptor game with me and he's really a like two last two minute guy like he's like dad we just have to watch like the last two minutes and and i always make the argument, no way, but you know, more often than not, you can pretty much get the excitement and the feel

for a game by watching the last two minutes. Yeah, I'm not, just because of where I grew up and basketball didn't even exist when I was a kid. And I've never really developed a real passion for the game.

And I have to admit that outside of playoff games, I'm a two-minute guy as well. What is your favorite sport to watch? Football. Football is the one sport. You told me I could only watch one. And believe it or not, and again...

I'm going to believe you. I know what you're going to say. It's CFL football, right? Well, I remember flipping back and forth on one Sunday afternoon when I was doing the critics' job. And I thought, you know, there's flipping back and forth on one Sunday afternoon when I was doing the critics job. And I thought, you know, there's a game here between Saskatchewan and Hamilton. And another game between Green Bay and I think it was Dallas.

And when it came down to it, I far more cared who won the CFL game. And that's, again, a lot to do with where I grew up, when I grew up, when I used to collect Coca-Cola bottle caps with CFL players' pictures on them. So, yeah, I still am a CFL guy. But, you know, I love the NFL too. So football is the one I've, as an adult, I watch less and less. Like I watch so little football now. I used to watch a lot as a young man, but just something about it turned me off. Well, something that's starting to turn me off

is the more we learn about concussions. Oh, yeah, CTE and all that. That's a whole other kettle of worms. Thank you very much for this. I could actually do, I know I promised you an hour

and I went over time. I hope that's okay. But I could have done another hour because the sports media talk, I just, I find it fascinating and I think the people out there have a big appetite for it.

So keep writing as long as they do. I'll keep writing, I guess. Yeah. Promise for sure. And that brings us to the end of our 205th show. You can follow me on Twitter and Chris, what's your Twitter.

Okay. I better tell people I'm at Toronto. Mike, if you couldn't guess that. And what's Chris, what's your at C's at Czelkov. C-Z-E-L-K-O-V. And our friends at Great Lakes Brewery are at Great Lakes Beer,

and Chef's Plate is at Chef's Plate CA. See you all next week, and I'll have Stephanie Smythe from CP24 over here, and we'll talk a little Land Roamer. I want to take a streetcar downtown Read Andrew Miller and wander around And drink some Guinness from a tin Cause my UI check has just come in Ah, where you been? Because everything is kind of

Rosy