Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - Cliff Thorburn: Toronto Mike'd Podcast Episode 1722

Episode Date: July 2, 2025

In this 1722nd episode of Toronto Mike'd, Mike chats with Order of Canada recipient and World Snooker Championship winner Cliff Thorburn about his remarkable life in snooker. Toronto Mike'd is proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, Palma Pasta, Ridley Funeral Home, Toronto Maple Leafs Baseball, the Waterfront BIA, Nick Ainis and RecycleMyElectronics.ca. If you would like to support the show, we do have partner opportunities available. Please email Toronto Mike at [e-mail].

Welcome to episode 1722 of Toronto Mic'd, proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, a fiercely independent craft brewery who believes in supporting communities, good times and brewing amazing beer. Order online for free local home delivery in the GTA. Palma pasta. Enjoy the taste of fresh, homemade Italian pasta and entrees from Palma pasta in Mississauga and Oakville. Toronto's waterfront BIA. More than water. Toronto Maple Leafs baseball. Get your

butts to Christie Pitts this summer for the best baseball in the city, outside the dome. RecycleMyElectronics.ca. Committing to our planet's future means properly recycling our electronics of the past. Building Toronto Skyline. A podcast and book from Nick Aynes, sponsored by Fusion Corp Construction Management Inc. and Ridley Funeral Home. Pill pillars of the community since 1921. Today, making his Toronto Mike debut is Order of Canada recipient and World Snooker Championship winner, Cliff Thorburn. Welcome, Cliff. Cliff Thorburn

Mike, how are you doing? Mike What a pleasure it is to meet you. I want to shout somebody out right off the top, somebody who introduced us. Let's give some love to Gary Chowen. How do you know Gary? Well, Gary used to cut my hair for the longest time. But no more, Cliff?

What's going on? Well, although I've got a lot of hair, luckily, as some say. Well, I was hanging around downtown and Gary was the man, so to speak. And then I moved to England and for, you know, eight or ten years, spent a lot of time over there, got a different barber, came back and somebody was doing perms for me up in Markham. And the next thing you know, I wasn't seeing Gary as much.

And it just, it's, you know, he just wasn't as handy as what he was before, but very, very handy in the sense that I love talking to him and he's got some great stories and we've been friends for the longest time. Gary is a tremendous storyteller. That's how he got his way on Toronto, Mike. He can tell a good story, be it about Cher, you name it.

He's got like wild stories, Ed McMahon, But then he told me, he said, Mike, Cliff walks amongst us. Cliff Thorburn is, do you live in Toronto or is it the GTA? I live very close to Markham. I'm in Scarborough now. I never thought that I'd actually live in Scarborough after living in Markham for so many I never thought that I'd actually live in Scarborough after living in Markham for so many years, of 25 or 30 years over the last 40 I've lived in Markham and we just moved to Scarborough for a few different reasons. But yeah, I'm- But now you're in the six, as they say.

You're now in the six proper. Yeah, I hear that. I don't understand that. I mean, the first time I heard it was Drake mentioned it and also that there was a basketball team that's named after it. Well, let me help you out. So there's a couple of origins,

but the main one is there's six boroughs in Toronto. So you're in Scarborough. Right now we're recording in Etobicoke. There's six of those. I can even name them. But also the two primary area codes, although we've added a few since then, but it was 416 and 647. So the six linked them. So this is the six.

Yeah. Okay. Well, now, now, now I know that now, you know, the origin, the six. Okay. So thank you, Gary, for putting us in touch. But Gary said you, he said you got to talk to cliff. And I'm like, I actually was thinking, okay, Mike, you don't know anything about Snooker. I don't even know if I'm saying it right. Snooker, am I saying that right? You say it right to me in the States. Sorry, in the UK, they call it a snooker.

And I never seem to say it right in their eyes, but it didn't matter just as long as you could play it but uh yeah snooker's snooker's the way that I like to uh hear it and and say it if I can say it the same way cliff Thorburn says it that I feel I'm in good company well you're uh you're headed in the right direction I'm going to like burn off a few notes that came in when I announced you were coming on and then we're gonna kind of go back and we're gonna have a great chat. I hope you know you're, I hope Gary warned you, you're here for at least an hour. Is that okay? It's fine of course. Okay good, good. I hope he gave you the

heads up here. And by the way I feel like if you wanted to crack open your Great Lakes beer right now, you have a premium lager in front of you. This one right here fresh from the, from the fridge but if you do crack it open do it on the mic Here it you want to do it. Well some people call this My friends call this the Canadian national anthem All right, so cheers to you cliff Cliff. Good to meet you, man. Thank you very much, Mike. I told you, you were the, you know,

Order of Canada, that's a prestigious company you're in, but you are the second Order of Canada recipient to sit there in the past two days, because Donovan Bailey was by yesterday. But I'm telling you, I know I'm in the presence of a legend here, so let me just shout out some notes from listeners. Steve Cole, when I announced you were coming on, said,

Cliff Thorburn, that's a coup. He's a legend from my younger years. You're a legend, Cliff. Well, I've been around for a long time. I started playing when I was about 15 in Victoria, BC, and I found snooker to be very frustrating. I broke quite a few cues when I was young, although I played baseball and lacrosse, and I was quite good at both of them, but individual sports, I sort of gravitated towards them, but just the first time I saw the game played in Victoria, and I went to watch my father bowl at Gibson's bowling alley, gravitated towards them, but just the first time I saw the game played in Victoria and there was a,

I was, I went to watch my father bowl at Gibson's bowling alley and not that I was bored with bowling, but I heard a clicking noise, went downstairs, watched a fella bank the black ball into the side pocket and the groin went up and some money appeared on the table and one fellow was laughing and grabbed the money and then somebody spotted me and said, okay kid, out of here and back up the stairs.

I was 12 at that time, but that's the first time I saw it and I ran upstairs to my father and I was just completely out of breath and dad downstairs with the shade and the frills and there was, you know, the colored balls, a bright green cloth and the colored balls and it was unbelievable and the money and he said the four words which really sort of changed my life.

He said, don't go down there. Oh. So, well, you know, you know what happens. You get a re-bell. So, okay, no know, you know what happens. You get a re-bell. So, okay, no problem, next day. Almost, but it just, I fell in love with the game and then the hustler came out and, you know, I didn't actually watch the hustler then, but I just

saw the, you know, the trailers for it and the posters and so on. And, and I was hooked and ever since then, I, you know, I wake up every day knowing that I still love Snooker and will always love it. Well I'm going to follow up on a couple of things there and then I'll get back to all the notes I got. So many notes, what a big deal.

I'm so honored to have you here. But you mentioned you played lacrosse. Now I understand that you set a one game scoring record of 10 goals in the Greater Victoria Minor Lacrosse Association Midget Division in 1958. So you didn't just play lacrosse, but it sounds like you were a hell of a lacrosse player. Well, I wasn't bad.

I've always had good hands, but I... That particular day, I was quite bored with lacrosse, and I said to my father, Jim, I said, I'd wanna go today. He said, well, you've gotta bored with lacrosse and I said to my father, Jim, I said, I'd want to go today. He said, well, you've got to go play lacrosse because he loved it too. And I was successful at it. And anyway, so we're driving there and he came to a stop sign and I got out and I just took off.

I said, dad, I don't want to play. And so anyways, he caught me and, you know, he put me back in the car and I climbed up a tree, the next one, and then he put me back in the car and I climbed up a tree, the next one. And then he put me back in the car and then, and then, uh, you know, I played the game and, uh, you know, it was almost like I wanted to show him that I didn't want to go. And I ended up scoring 10 goals, but I, yeah,

but no, but I was pretty nifty at that time. I 10 goals was a, a lot, but just, you know, faking with it across, taking everything. And then they, uh, they, uh 10 goals was a lot, but just, you know, faking with the cross stick and everything. And then they, uh, they, uh, they actually put me, uh, it's a long story, but I ended up being, being, uh, uh, the goalkeeper, like the next year, they wouldn't let me play on my team.

It's a, that's right. All politics anyway. Oh my goodness. Yeah. And, um, you know, I even scored a couple of goals, uh, as the goal. Oh my goodness. Yeah, and I even scored a couple of goals as the goal. Wow. Yeah, but just being a pest and getting lots of assists and all that stuff.

But I love lacrosse and still love it to this day. Just a big fan of it. But I understand by the age of 16, you've left school and you're traveling across this country basically making money as a snooker player. Well I didn't make a lot of money but it was you know I wanted to I thought that every pool room or every city had a had a pool room like the Rack and Coup in Victoria and that's where all the champions played in Victoria.

And I just wanted to see different players. I could see that everybody had a different style and everybody had a story and it was just phenomenal. And I could meet them all, I could sit there, watch them, I could ask them questions. Didn't get a lot of answers in those days. There weren't any videos or anything like that. So you almost had to learn it just through time spent, but I, you know, and traveling was easy, except of course, in the winter time, if you were

in Winnipeg, Manitoba, of course, in January. And I actually went to the winter time if you were in Winnipeg, Manitoba of course in January and actually a friend of mine and myself we caught a freight train and it was in the winter we ended up being in the second engine and we wanted to see the late great George Chenier who is the only other at the moment snooker player in the Canadian Sports Hall of Fame. And anyways I wanted to see George play so we were in the second engine for about two and a half days and I think I think we had a Christmas cake or something between we were like out of our minds completely I mean 16 17 old, but the only way to travel and ended up getting to Toronto and via

Montreal actually, but, you know, cause there weren't any, any train schedules in the second engine. You know what they say, you can't jump a jet plane like you can a freight train. No, well, exactly. And, you know, but, but, what, what happens is You can't jump a jet plane like you can a freight train. No, well exactly. But what happens is of course, you don't realize it. When you've been on a train for two and a half days,

and that's even being a passenger, you don't realize just how fast the train is going when it actually slows down. And so we jumped off the train and it was going quite fast and I went for a tumble. You'll kill yourself doing that. Yeah, well you could have. And anyways, in Toronto, I got to see George Chenier play

and I heard all these stories about George never missing a ball, et cetera. And the first shot he played, well, he missed the shot. And of course I realized that I had a, well, you know, he's not that good, so to speak. But then I saw George actually run the rest of the table and he just did it in such a way that he just had easy shots and he didn't

have to hit the ball hard. And it was, it was really beautiful, nice tempo, every shot, the same speed. And, and I just had this look of, you know, the ball actually being in before he shot it. I mean, that was, you know, it's still beautiful to watch. All right. You said the word tempo. So before I bring you back to 1968, I did get a question from Tyler Campbell,

and he was asking if you ever did a Ford commercial back in the 1980s. He's got a memory of you doing a commercial for Ford. Did you do that? No, no, no. He's got a memory of you doing a commercial for Ford. Did you do that? Uh, no, no, no. So he's got the wrong guy. Come on, Tyler. He's like, I can't, couldn't find it anywhere. Well, there's a reason you can't find it anywhere, Tyler. This never happened. Correct yourself. I did, I did a commercial with Paul Rimstad. We were at the McLaughlin estate out in Oshawa Laughlin estate out in Oshawa.

And, uh, it was, um, I was massing the shot around, well, uh, actually I had a shot and then in the script, uh, Paul, Paul put a beer bottle down and then I played a mass a shot around the beer bottle and, uh, and made it. And then, uh, yeah, it was, uh, you know, it, uh, it went over quite well, actually. Okay. So I'm bringing you back to 1968 because in 1968, you, what is it?

You won the Toronto, what did you win? Uh, the Toronto snooker championship. What was that called? Uh, that was, yeah, it was. Oh, the Toronto city championship. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Yeah. In 19, 1960. Yeah, I guess it was. Oh, the Toronto City Championship. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah, in 1960, yeah, I guess it was, yeah. And that was about the first real tournament that I had won of any significance. All the best players were here. So you were just a natural then? Like, I'm just trying to, so build you up here, of course, you'll become world champion, but you were just a natural, this kid from Victoria, BC. You just had the natural snooker skills.

I had the natural desire. As far as the snooker skills, I was just mainly self-taught, and I was more of a copycat. And, you know, the fellow that, uh, you know, played for, uh, six or seven hours a day for, uh, 15 years to become an overnight sensation. I'm, you know, and that 10,000 thing was probably 15,000 hours. But, uh. You put in your reps.

Mm hmm. Yeah. And, uh, but it wasn't, um, you know, there weren't any coaches. I just worked on things that, uh, shots that were giving me trouble. And, uh, I just realized that I wanted to be good when I got in the balls because you can be the

best safety player and in the world and somebody, you know, leaves you in the balls. Well, you want to be able to clear the table or, or close to it. But that's what I worked on. You worked on that, but Cliff, you're, you're Canadian, FYI, you're Canadian. So this is like, toI, you're Canadian.

So this is, like to me, this is like somebody in the UK trying to make it in the NHL. Like, it's like, did you have any sense of like, all the greats are coming out of the United Kingdom? Yeah, I did. Well, of course I worshiped them from afar, the best players and some of them became my friends, but I still, after a

while, I certainly felt like the Russian hockey player. I mean, there's no doubt about that. And it's just, it's something that you have to get by, but I mean, I met so many people over there, but I was, uh, I was the bad guy for a while. I mean, you know, I didn't have to, you know, tattoo a maple leaf on my forehead because they

all knew where I came from. And I was proud of it. Well, they heard how you said snooker and they said, oh, this guy's Canadian. Yeah. I was, yeah, I think, yeah, I think that, that, you know, the strangeness of it was, and you know, the only thing that sort of comes close was when, when I was

much younger and, and the Olympics, I guess that it was in Tokyo and, and a fellow named Doug Rogers became, he was the runner up in, in the world judo championship. And, you know, so that was, that was really strange to somebody coming from Canada and doing well at the Olympics. So, you know, so that was, that was really strange to somebody coming from Canada and, and they're doing well at the Olympics. So, uh, you know, something like that.

But, but I had to, um, relearn the game when I went to the UK because the, you know, the tables were, um, well, the pockets were tighter, the cloth was thicker, uh, the, you know, the balls were always, always damp. Uh, the, you know, the balls were heavier. There's a, it was, um, I mean, at the time I were always damp, the balls were heavier. I mean, at the time, I didn't realize that here in Canada,

that we probably had the best conditions playing anywhere in the world. We just assumed that in the UK, that things were absolutely perfect. Like a friend and I, sorry, a friend and I would be saying, well Cliff, I wonder what it's like going over to the UK. So we sort of thought that, you know, before I went there, that it would be like the, you know,

the guy in the Beefeater. Right. But you know, in costume with the big staff and going, you know, and he pounded the ground, boom, boom. Introducing from Canada, Clif Thorburn, like that, and then, you know, pounding it with the scepter kind of a thing. So, you know, but once we got there or once I got

there, you know, the white clubs, the, you know, for the referees and just all very, very polished and, you know, tuxedos and the people that were, you know, that watched, you know, they all wore ties and, you know, it's going to be like a lot more relaxed now, obviously, but, you know, it was very, very staid kind of a thing. You know, all, you know, the Marcus and

Queenberry rules and all that stuff. You're blowing my mind. I had no idea that the conditions like you described there with the, the fabric and the, the, the balls and being heavier, like and all that. I, I had no idea the conditions would be any different, whether you're playing in Toronto or playing in London.

Yeah. If you're, um, you know, if somebody leaves a door open and, uh, and it's raining outside, then, you know, the balls actually collect some of the moisture and then, and then when the ball hits a cushion, it sort of jumps up and then say the cue ball after it hits the object while we hit a And then, and then when the ball hits a cushion, it sort of jumps up and then say the cue ball, after it hits the object ball, we hit a cushion and, and we'll actually just have a small little

bounce coming off the cushion. So, you know, the ball will probably travel another two or three feet more than what you're thinking. It just looks like a terrible shot, but I mean, there's guys that we, we would say to them, yeah, we're not going to play tonight. Or else a guy's talking smart to you,

that doesn't play well when it's damp, and he says something to you, and then you say, what are you laughing about? It's raining outside and stuff like that. But yeah, there's a lot to it. You can, I mean, I've got so many demons with the game of snooker that I've you know Mr. Made anything that you can think of I've probably done and not you know good or bad playing

Okay now you become a champion of the champion of the world in 1980 bits We're gonna kind of build take us there, but on our way We kind of skipped over. But, you know, right out of the gate, you had a very interesting life. I mean, I was reading about how you were living in an orphanage for a period of time before being raised by your dad and that, is it right that your, your, your dad told you your mom was dead, but she wasn't? Yeah, we were, um, uh, well, for the, uh, my mother and my father, uh, uh, divorced when I was about two and they didn't think that my father

was, uh, suited to actually raise a child by himself. So, uh, there was a legal, a legal battle and where would, uh, young Cliff go. So anyways, I, I ended up in an orphanage for, for a little while, but I mean, as it happens, both of my parents were alive. But yeah, my whole family would, they all said that my mother had passed away.

And then a friend of mine who became a milkman said that your aunt wants to talk to you. And I was about 20, I guess, or 21. And then I spoke to her and she said, how would you like to meet your mother? So, yeah, it's sort of, you know, it wasn't a, what's that like though, when you think your mom is dead and then you're going to meet your mom. Like that's gotta be a mind blow. Yeah, you can let it become whatever you let it. But yeah, it was very strange and she had her own family.

And so it was, you know, meeting her for the first time. Yeah, it was strange and just, you know, that I was on a guilt trip sort of talking to her because of my father, but then, you know, my father was one of them that, well, you know, that mentioned, you know, that she wasn't around. So at first, you know, that you had passed away and then it just became something

that you think about completely and then you, yeah. So yes, it was difficult and I was, once my grandmother, my father got custody of me then my father was a real sports fanatic and he pushed me into sports and luckily, and my grandmother was a strict Scottish lady and she had to be strict because my dad was, I mean, we had so much fun together just talking about sports and

everything and I miss the whole deal there, but he's gone now, but he would have been a hundred about a year ago, I think. Okay. Now, you know, hearing all this, it's like the, this is the recipe, right? This is the perfect storm that could create a Canadian World Snooker Championship winner

The alchemy was there. Yeah. Well, it was I mean, I just I'm I just had this drive that I wanted Especially for my father. I wanted, you know, because it's, well, my dad didn't have much education and I was the, you know, only child. And, and, you know, I wanted my, you know, my dad and I to be recognized as sort of normal family members, not that we were mistreated or anything, but, you know, I, I left school in grade, I just after grade, after I passed grade nine.

And I think I got kicked out of three schools that, that, that year, like just for being a smart ass and, or a ham or whatever you want to call it. And then, you know, like the truant officer would come over to my place, well, my grandmother and dad's place. And when I was about 15 and, you know, and help me chopping, sort of help me chop wood. And he goes, what am I doing here? my grandmother and dad's place and when I was about 15 and you know and helped me chopping

sort of help me chop wood and he goes what am I doing here and then my teacher who actually was a Rhodes scholar he on the last day of school and I hadn't been to school a lot that year and he said he said right class right class, he said, everybody's passed and the whole class all looked around at me. How could Thorbren actually pass? And he said, yeah, everybody passed. He said, have a great summer, Thorbren, you stay behind. And so I stayed behind and he had these words of wisdom

for me, he says, listen, you know, you little, you know, right, you didn't pass. He said, I passed you because I don't want to see you in this something school ever again. And then we had a thing about, uh, uh, about maybe five or six years later where, uh, uh, uh, we were raising money, uh, for the Toronto

firefighters burn unit and we raised $25,000 actually for this one night that we had up at the school and they probably had about 1,400 people there or something like that. And the teacher was there. He said, well, he said, he said, I don't believe it. He said, but congratulations, which was nice. Amazing.

A couple of quick notes, because I'm afraid I'll get to the end of this episode and I'll forget to ask these nice questions. But one comes from Rick A. Rick says, in a 1975 episode of King of Kensington, an episode featured a snooker match between Larry, played by Al Waxman, and Kathy, if you want to read, Cliff Thorburn was listed as a snooker consultant in the credits. Does Cliff have any recollection of this and if so any anecdotes he'd like to share? He wrote anecdotes but that's like when you have poison and you need an anecdote. Do you remember this at all? Yeah I do. I do remember that. I mean I yeah, I do remember that.

I mean, I was, uh, well, I just, uh, helped them with their bridges, et cetera. And also I played, I played a few of the shots that were, uh, important. You were the stunt, uh, stunt man there. Yeah. The stunt player and, uh, yeah, that was a lot of fun and I was a fan of the show, of course.

And, uh, that's where I think it was, uh, is it Joe Flaherty? Was it Joe Flaherty? Was it Joe Flaherty? He's on SCTV, Joe Flaherty. Yeah. Was he not in that? It was he I think he might have been in that particular scene. But, you know, I got to, you know, I got to meet him. And then I, you know, followed

his career because I was a fan of his more than the actual show. Well, Joe Flaherty, sadly no longer with us, but he was at the SCTV reunion that was filmed. So we will see him eventually whenever they finish making this dog. It's become quite the project, but listeners of this program know my beef with that, but yeah, we lost Joe Flaherty, sadly.

He was a Pittsburgh guy. Okay. But he came up here for obviously for probably for Godspell or something But only he's up here for King of Kensington now DJ dream doctor He wrote in I used to play snooker at Kings Kingsway billiards, which is now the crooked Q not far from here Actually back in the 80s. Can you ask Cliff if he ever played there? actually. Back in the 80s, can you ask Cliff if he ever played there? It used to be a serious snooker hall. Any Crooked Q slash Kingsway Billiards memories? Isn't that on?

It's on Bloor near Royal York. Yeah, sure. Yeah. Yeah. And it's a wonderful place. You know, it's one of the first places that actually, you know, brought, well, they had some booze, but also brought in great food and, you know, it became more of a, you know, a corporate place as well, like to, you know, like to have a Christmas parties and all that. And, you know, he'd hire me once, they would

hire me once in a while. Yeah. But not, there wasn't too much as far as the top players were concerned. I didn't hear too much about it. Well, there must have been, but you know, because if I would have had wind of anything, like if somebody gambled or something, well, then I would maybe, maybe stop by, but not hustle. I mean, I always say, well, I've never hustled anybody before and I hope I never have to do that again. So what's the difference? Is hustling where you pretend like you're

not a great player and then you take them or like, what is the difference between hustling somebody and just like beating them for money? Uh, well, uh, if they know who you are and you don't hide the fact, you know, like miss shots on purpose, but hustling is selling an older person some product for their house that they don't need.

But I've never, but when you hustle somebody in pool, it's like karma, something will come back and haunt you. Okay, I'm taking notes over here, fascinating. I'm actually looking at the live stream, and I will say, there is an issue, I think a technical issue that arose last week I have to iron out where the it looks like the frame rate is lower on the live streams I have to figure that out. But thank you for being there. Dr

Dream sees sorry DJ dream doctor is actually watching us live and he says I remember watching Steve Davis and he was so cool and Collected how did you cliff feel about your rivalry with Steve Davis and he was so cool and collected, how did you Cliff feel about your rivalry with Steve Davis? Well, I knew that he was good, you know, that I guess I first saw him play about 1978, about three years before he won the championship for the first time, and I knew that he was going to be special. I just worked very diligently at his game and you know, he had the best coaches, etc. Actually, we just had a Champions' Dinner over in... Well, first of all, I really enjoyed playing Steve. He's as hard as anybody that I actually played and a tremendous talent, won 40 tournaments or something, which was

unheard of, but, um, we, we just had a champions dinner and, and, um, um, you know, for the first time and they presented us, you know, with, uh, uh, velvet jackets with, uh, jackets with the crest of the world championship trophy on. And we had 11 or 12 people at the dinner. There's only 18 former champions, you know, still alive.

And, you know, it went from Ray Reardon, who was a six times champion, 92 years old, he passed away within the last six months or so. And then, and then the next lowest was Terry Griffiths. He, he just passed away. And then I became the oldest living world champion. Well, I'm 77.

It's a big drop. And you're not going anywhere anytime soon, not with good hair like that. Yeah. That's an indicator. 92 to 77 is a bit of a drop, you know, so I became the oldest person. So anyways, at this dinner, like I'll try and

make this quick. We're, we're just talking and, uh, you know, the former, uh, well, the champion at this dinner, like I'll try and make this quick, we're just talking and you know, the former, well, the champion at the time, you know, said a few words, his name's Kyron Wilson, he's English and now it's a surprise. What a surprise. Yeah, yeah, and the championship has just been won by a Chinese fellow, Zhao Ting. Zhao, okay. Zhao Ting. But not a UK guy. No, no, first time in China. And you know, just a huge thing,

but I just want to get back to dinner. Yeah, Steve Davis. Yeah, you know, so Kyron Wilson said a few, you know, nice words and all that stuff, and then they came to me for one reason or another. And of course I'm talking about the fact that Steve Davis was in his prime, you know, when I was just, you know,

it's my prime too to a certain extent. And, you know, but Steve, and so now it's, right, so I first met him in 78, I retired in 96, so that's 18 years, and in that time, Steve and I had two conversations of five minutes or more. Wow. In 18 years, you know, so then I had a chance to talk to him, I just said, well, you know, Steve,

you know, I wanna thank you for your time, you know, in speaking to me those, those, those two times. And, uh, you know, said something, you know, which I can't say on, on air. That was actually quite funny. Oh, no, no, no, no, no. Well, I can't do that, but yeah. Uh, but, um, um, well actually, okay. What I said was, uh, that, you know, and then we met in Australia after I retired, uh, you know, on the, actually, okay, what I said was, and then we met in Australia after I retired on the main tour, so in 98 we met in Australia. Like I'm just having breakfast and Steve was there,

so then I hear A Cliff and I turn around and it's Steve Davis and I said, oh hi Steve, how you doing now Now, what I meant to say was, now what do you bleep want Steve? What do you want this time? Sorry. So what did, it's like two conversations of five minutes in 18 years.

But he would actually like, he'd show up, practice, wouldn't say anything. And then after the match was over, they might, you know, just hop into the limo and then go back to his hotel or, you know, whatever he did at the time. And, you know,

but we never spoke hardly at all. It was just one of those things. It was like he was cocooned or, you know, don't speak to Thorburn. He was in the zone or, you know, don't speak to Thorburn. He was in the zone or maybe you Canadians, right? Like you're an imposter or something on his turf. But DJ Dream Doctor wants us all to know

that after his snooker career, Steve Davis became a DJ. I don't know if you knew that or not. If that came up in your chat you had at that reunion there that Steve Davis apparently became a DJ. And by the way, I think I told you off the top, I don't know this world at all. But I did a lot of homework when I knew that Gary Chowen was sending you over. And I'm like, I gotta please Gary on this. Like, I feel like Gary's gonna be listening astutely, I gotta do a good job. So I did a lot of homework. And you're dropping these names. And I'm like, I know these names. So Steve Davis, just give people some perspective. We'll talk in a minute about these world snooker championship in 1980, where you win cliff.

That's spoiler alert. But in 1983, you made the finals against Steve Davis. Steve actually beat you, but you dropped the name Terry Griffiths. And the fun fact that come out of that 83 tournament is that you became and you're going to tell me what this means. You became the first player to make a maximum break in a world championship match. You did that in the second round against Terry Griffiths. What exactly am I talking about Cliff? Well, in snooker you have, well, there's no numbers on the balls, but there's 15 red balls and it's a game that was invented in 1875 in a army base in India.

And right, so they had 15 red balls and that game was called Pyramids. And he decided to come up with six more colored balls and they are the yellow, green, brown, blue, pink and black. And the reds are worth the point. And if you pot a red red it stays down and then you can shoot one of the other six colors and they're the the points are you know yellow two green and the you know up to the pink black six and seven respectively and so if you obviously if you make

a red and a black then that comes to eight points you know for the red, seven for the black, eight times 15 is 120. And then the six colored balls, they come to 27 points and that makes a total of 147 points. And that's the most that you can score. There is a way to score more points, but your opponent has to make a penalty. That's another story. So it had never been done before. The first world championship was in 1927. So for 56 years, there had never been a one, four, seven in the world championships. And I was the first one in 1983.

And I actually fluked the first ball, you know, to, to stop this fellow, you know, from saying, yeah, I'm gonna fluk the first ball or what's his name? This fellow, the doctor, somebody. Oh, DJ dream doctor, dream doctor. Well, there we go. I got to meet this guy. So anyways, yeah.

And then I continued on and I cleared up and became the first person to do it in the world championship. It's, you know, it's like the four minute mile, I guess you could you could say. Well, I'm impressed, Cliff, for what it's worth, I'm sitting here thoroughly impressed. Yeah, it's, well, you know, it's one of those things that somebody had to do it and, you know, every, you know, there's been that many things that somebody had to do it. And, um, you know, every, you know, there's been that many world championships that eventually it was going to be done. And, you know, some, uh, some players have had

three, uh, each at the world championships and, uh, you know, so things have changed a lot of great players out there now, the stunning players and, uh, yeah. And, and, and, and especially this, uh, a young Chinese boy. I think he's, well mind you, he's 28 now, I think, something like that,

but boy, he plays beautifully. It's just so beautiful to watch. Now you mentioned you're the first to do that. You're the first to do a few things, but one that I noticed it's got an asterisk beside it, but you're generally recognized as the first world champion who does not hail from the United Kingdom

Which is an awkward way of saying now you're not from the UK you won, but there is an asterisk there So I feel like there's like an Australian guy who won, but maybe they've removed it for some reason I don't know if you can all they had a yeah, they had a You know, let's see they had a They had a association that they wanted to form, all the top players. But the pro game was actually run by the amateur's association. It's a long story, but these things happen. And so all of the players balked at, you know, playing in this next world championship unless they controlled it. So there was two players, Horace Lindum and Clark McConnachie, sorry, Horace Lindum from Australia and Clark McConnachie from

New Zealand. And they're both very good players and great players. And, and, uh, you know, so they decided just to not, not go with the pros. I, I, you know, I'm not even sure how it all worked out, but anyways, they played a match and of course the trophy was up for grabs and Horace Linden won it. And you know, fair dinkum, as they say. Well, we're going to put a asterisk on that for sure.

Yeah. We'll recognize you as the sports first world champion from outside the UK. And furthermore, Cliff, while we're tooting your horn here, you're the first non-British player to top the Snooker World rankings. You were ranked number one during the 81 and 82 season. Of course, that's after I keep teasing this championship you win, which we're gonna get to. But I'm to ask you a couple more questions since I've kind of got you a hostage here. How's your great lakes beer by the way? It's a, it's fantastic. Yes.

It's fresh a brood right here in South Etobicoke at great lakes brewery and they hosted us just last week. We all got together by us. I mean the listenership, we got together at great lakes brewery for TMLX19 and everyone had a great time and the food was delicious. Palma pasta fed everybody. Cliff, how would you like, I mean this is not as exciting as being the first champion from outside the UK, but how would you like a large lasagna? Do you like lasagna? I sure do. Okay, I have in my freezer for you from Palma pasta. Everybody go to palapasta.com. They're in Mississauga and Oakville. They've sent Cliff over a lasagna and it's yours to take home

with you, Cliff. Love it. Yeah, sure. Would love that. Have you ever been to a Toronto Maple Leafs baseball game at Christie Pitts? No, I haven't. I've always wanted to go actually, because I know that there's a long history. And, uh, you know, your stuff, you want to learn about that history. But yeah, well, I see the book here too. Yeah, that's yours, Cliff. That's the history of Toronto Maple Leafs baseball. Yeah.

Just, you know what the ticket will cost you? Absolutely nothing. Uh, it's just the best vibe, the best atmosphere, high quality semi-pro baseball, and you can get yourself a hot dog and get yourself a lager and just sit on the hill and enjoy Toronto Maple Leafs baseball. I will show up there one night with my family. Oh, amazing. That'd be amazing.

That book is yours to take home. I want to shout out Ridley Funeral Home. We're actually going to record a new episode later today of Life's Undertaking with Brad Jones, but Ridley Funeral Home has sent over a measuring tape. If you need to measure, I don't know if you need to measure something on the billiard table, what do I know? This is starting to get a bit personal now. I won't ask what you measured.

With them giving me a tape measure. I'm not. No, I've seen your hair clip. You've got me mixed up with somebody who cares. Holy smokes, I don't know. I don't mind the tape measure, but you know, for all the wrong reasons here and all that I'm still here for one thing. Well, you're not just here, but I can, I, you know, I mean, I have,

I have a dare. I toot my own horn here and tell you, I think I have a pretty good head of hair. Okay. So game recognizes game. You know, like if you're, I don't know, if you're, uh, a particularly tall person and you meet another tall person, you're like, okay, game, recognizing game. I'm looking at that head of hair. I'm, if I could have that head of hair when I'm your age, that would be like my wish. So I don't think you're anywhere close to visiting Ridley funeral home is what I'm telling you.

Well, I don't know if that's a fair assumption as far as, uh, you know, if you're not well, there's a lot of, I feel like you sickly people don't have great head of hair like that, but you're right, I'm not a doctor. So I could be. Yeah, I wanna stay away from that conversation absolutely, totally. Okay, we're gonna move on then.

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where we'll probably have our next TMLX event. And that's on the waterfront. So from July 4th to the 6th, that's only in a few days, experience the vibrant heart of the Philippines at the Fun Philippines Toronto Food and Music Festival. It's a mouthful but it's called the Fun Philippines Toronto Food and Music Festival. It's happening July 4th to the 6th. Enjoy live performances by Filipino artists, feast on authentic Filipino foods, and discover artisanal and indigenous-made craft exhibits.

So go to waterfrontbia.com to get more info, but it's happening July 4 to 6. Put it in your calendar. Have you ever been to the Philippines, Cliff? No, I haven't. And there's some great, great pool players down there. I don't know if there's a, you know, a world-class snooker player come from there. I think it's mainly because they're all playing pool, but there's so, you know, they're just wonderfully skilled players and youngsters

as well that can, that can beat anybody. Okay. Now Scott Dobson, who's been on the program, he said, Cliff is a very interesting guy. Scott, I'm now here to tell you, now that we're almost an hour into this thing, I think you're absolutely right. Very interesting guy. Ask him if he liked Gods of Snooker. Did you like Gods of Snooker? Do you know what that is? Is that a book? No, I think it's, I think it's, Is that a book? No, I think it's, I think it's, it was a program that I was one or two episodes. No, I didn't see it though.

Okay, I haven't seen it either. Well, I know the ending, so. Moose Grumpy says, I used to watch him all the time with my stepfather when I was young. He's 100% the best player not from the UK. So two things I have to follow up. Thank you, Moose, for that. But one is, do you think you're the best snooker player ever who's not from the UK. So two things I have to follow up. Thank you Moose for that. But one is, do you think you're the best snooker player ever who's not from the UK? And then

the follow up is, do you get like ticked off when people throw like a condition on it? Like, oh, Cliff, he's the best. No, for all the players not from the UK. Like, it's almost like a lawyer wrote and they put it, they put an asterisk in there. So do you think you're the best player not from the UK? So do you think you're the best player not from the UK or do you think you're the best player period? Oh, no, no, no, no, the game has changed and it's like they're playing snooker as if it's being played on a much smaller table. That's how well that they're playing.

And if you're not practicing, they are kind of a situation. And a lot of the players are Chinese, but no, the best overseas players probably from Australia, you know, the Neil Robertson and he, his father had a club. He started playing when he was very, very young and probably, you know, helped along a little bit, but boy, what a wonderful player.

And then we had the Chinese players and, uh, you know, there's been, you know, and even a couple of players from Canada here that didn't, you know, that maybe should have gone on to win like Elaine Robidoux is a wonderful player from Montreal, but he's retired, you know, he should have, uh, we won a world team championship together. And, um, uh, well, that's always satisfying

beating everybody. Sure. In a team game, you know, it won a world team championship together. And, well, that's always satisfying beating everybody in a team match. And, but you know, Bob Jopron, Kirk Stevens, we've had some truly wonderful players and maybe didn't, you know, they were good enough to win the championship, but never, you know, championship but never thought they were. Fascinating.

By the way, when Moose Crumpey talked about watching you on CBC, Carlo chimed in to say he remembers seeing you on Saturday mid-afternoon. So can you remind me, was there a program on CBC Saturday afternoons where they would show snooker matches? Yeah, that was when there was a lot of Canadian content and of course you'd have somebody like the great Ted, Ted Reynolds was a great sportscaster and Ted was from BC I think. But anyways, he would come over with the director, Lawrence Kimber, and they'd spend two weekends at the world championship and send back three or four really good reports. And of course, the Canadian players were doing know, so every match that they showed her every second match, it was,

uh, there was normally, uh, at least one Canadian plane. So it was, yeah, that was, that was on the Saturday afternoon and, and, and, um, uh, yeah, it was very popular too. Sure. Well, that would draw in casual fans who would discover the sport essentially. And I feel like today, I don't know how a casual fan gets drawn in. Like you would have to like purposefully look for it. It wouldn't just ever accidentally hit you.

Yeah, there's nothing on, you know, there's nothing on live TV. I mean, obviously in the UK there is, but there's, you know, like lots and lots of stuff online. But the BBC, they cover three tournaments, but the, the world snooker champions is probably a hundred it's, it's on for 17 days and they probably have a, like 130, 135 hours of live snooker on it's

either BBC one or BBC two. And then there's other, and then Eurosport, even though BBC is doing it, well, they, they get like a spinoff from it as well. So they, they have their own, own commentators booth there as well. So, you know, for the last, well, the semis and the finals. So, you know, it's all over Europe, the, you know, people in France and

Belgium and, and, you know, the Netherlands, right, are all big time fans. And now because of that, the world champion from about three years ago was a Belgium lad. He was very, very young and just a really strong player. He went out and bought himself a Ferrari anyways when he won it. What did you buy when you won it? We're going to get to your, everybody, we're going to get to the big win in a moment, but what did you buy when you won it? We're gonna get to your everybody we're gonna get to the big win in a moment but what did you buy when you won in 1980?

I can't I can't I can't remember I was driving a nice car and you know had my What did you drive? Well a Cadillac. I see you in a Cadillac. Yeah and over in the UK I was driving a Mercedes it was just like a 380 Yeah. I see you in a Cadillac. Yeah. And over in the UK I was driving a Mercedes. It was just like a 380 SE, but it was a coupe and it was a great highway car.

And then all of a sudden we had some kids and downsized a little bit. But yeah. They didn't make you get a caravan or anything, did they? No, but one of the snooker players, Bill Wuer tonight one of our uh... truly great players uh... uh... bill appeal was renowned for his you know drinking exploits of the fact that he's actually have a you know a pint or two when he played but also you know but he would have uh... uh... uh... you know well actually he bought a he bought a caravan of course he had the taps and everything uh... in it

and uh... you know but bill was actually a very, very good player. And actually, he made a 143. Before I made the 147, Bill made a 143 to tie the highest break record in the history of the world championships. And also Kirk Stevens had the 147 at the Benson Hedges tournament, which is the second biggest tournament, is what they say. And Donald Sutherland actually was there watching.

He just sort of came to the tournament, which was in London at the Wembley Conference Center. And he was staying at the St. James club and he heard that Canadian player was playing. So he showed up and, you know, we sort of met him and I was speaking to him and, and Kirk before his match. And, and, you know, so Donald said, well, I'd like to go in and watch. So he hadn't seen a snooker frame in his life. And he walked in and there's Kirk playing.

He's got a white shirt got a white suit on and he made a one, four, seven break and there's 2800 people watching. It was like the, you know, the people went crazy and then he left, you know, he, he had to go somewhere. So he just sort of went in, watched one frame, watched, watched clear, you know, a Kirk, Kirk make a one,

four, seven break and, and, and a leave. And then he got up and left because he had to go somewhere. Oh my God. That's like you've been to one baseball game in your life and you saw a perfect game or something like that. And then you'd be, you just assume it's always like

that. Yeah. Or just the overtime goal or something. Oh yeah. Yeah. I went to one game and then I watched, you know, or yeah, or I was going to say Sydney Crosby scored the golden goal.

Yeah. And you just know, it's always like that. That's how the sport works. That's funny. That's a great, uh, Sutherland's Donald Sutherland story. All right. Uh, Emily Mew, this one's fun. I thought this was a fun one. This came in from Emily Mews and Emily says, I threw Cliff out of a chair once.

It was November 3rd, 1995 and he was court side at a Toronto Raptors game and I was a Toronto Raptors dancer and he was in our way to get on the court and I said, pardon my French Cliff, I know you're a proper gentleman but I'm quoting Emily here, I said, fuck it and tossed him. I apologized afterwards but it was wild and this was just days before I licked Dennis Rodman's abs so there's quite a note that came in from Emily Muse you have any memory of a dancer moving you out of the way in early by the way this is very very early times for the Raptors they only started playing in the fall of 95 yeah I I went to a Toronto Raptors night and I was doing some trick shots and that was

Damon Stodemar was there. He was the rookie. Yeah, the rookie. But I can't remember getting tossed. Let me move you aside. Who knows? Yeah, well, I do remember, you know, right, they said that they'd pay me at the time, like they'd pay me in Raptors tickets.

So I said, okay, great. And Courtside tickets. And I ended up getting that time, I ended up getting for $550 was two tickets Courtside. That's a good old days. But we should remember though, if it's November 95, they're playing at the dome. Because the Air Canada Center doesn't open till 99.

So, yeah, like I can tell you as a Raptors fan that we played those first four years or whatever at the Sky Dome. Like, so you would have been doing that in the cavernous Sky Dome, I would think. Well, actually all that I know is that I gave my kids the two tickets and I just drove around town for a while like to pick them up that's basically what happened. But anyways yeah wonderful franchise and you know has done so much for and like you they're

champions and the country yeah oh that's great yeah. You both climbed the mountains here by the way Damon Stoudermire's nickname was Mighty Mouse and your nickname was The Grinder. How do you feel about that nickname, The Grinder, and how the heck did you get that nickname? Well, I think The Grinder sort of sounds like to kids, it sounds a little scary to be honest with you. Well, I was going to say it sounds like you're in adult films. Well, yeah, well, I didn't mean that actually, but no, but yeah, The Meat Grinder or some kind of a... No, but I did hear about that. Yeah, that actually, but no, but yeah. Oh, like meat grinder or some kind of a. No, but I did hear about that. Yeah, that's, uh, well then, yeah. Yeah, I did hear about that, but, um, uh, you

know, cause I, I say to kids sometimes, you know, son of grinder, if, if the fellows, a good safety player, but, uh, um, actually somebody called me the grind father, which I thought was, yeah, but, uh, you know, but there's a few people like that. I've got got the like in basketball and baseball this stuff stuff going around but you know the grinder came from an announcer that just after I beat Alex Higgins in the final he said to Higgins he said or to

Alex I should say you know that well you, he's a real grinder isn't he and then Alex said something like, you know, yeah, he grinds real hard believe me something like that but it was it was a sports announcer David Vine that actually did the skiing for bit at the BBC and And then he'd come straight from Kitzbuehl to do the World Championships, you know, in the middle of April. So he had some good stories as well. Alright, so you've said the name Alex Higgins now, and I feel like we've teased this long enough, we should kind of get into it here. But it is 1980, it is the World Snooker Championship in 1980. You defeat Alex Higgins 18 to 16 in the final What do you remember about that that moment for you Cliff?

well Alex and I weren't talking we it's a long story. We just always had a if I won there was some kind of there was some kind of argument, let's say. But he was a wonderful player and just had to win, but I mean, so did I. So anyways, we were locked in at 16-15, and then I missed an easy shot, and well, it appeared to be an easy shot,

but I made a problem out of it. And so he won that, the crowd went crazy. And then as, as I was walking off, it's the first one to win 18. So now it'd be best to three. And there is a three or four guys there with Alex Higgins t-shirts on and stuff. The place is, is packed. And that was a night of the Iranian embassy siege. Oh,

yeah. That, you know, so that was the same night and that's when they, you know, they went straight to the embassy siege and, um, and, and took the snooker off and everybody, well, there was a lot of, uh, you know, like a big turmoil about that. You know, so anyways, it's, it's, it's the first time that snooker went to BBC two and, uh, you know, so they went to, uh, BBC Two and Kate Eady,

or Kate Eady I think was the, you know, like the rookie newscaster that was actually on there, you know, that the only one that was there doing the embassy, you know, because they were waiting for something to happen. But anyways, so I ended up going back to my dressing room, I'm missing this shot and I'm screening myself in my dressing room after missing this shot, and I'm screening myself in my dressing room.

I just, oh my God, purple face kind of a thing. And then I came back out and then I cleared the table and then I had, like I didn't miss a shot in the last game as well, like to win 18 to 16. So that was, I mean, that was, you know, I couldn't possibly have played better, but they don't sort of, you know,

they don't rank that as one of the, you know, great performances. Listen, right, I'm not worried about it, but I mean, I'm here talking. I guess that's why nobody gives me a microphone anymore. Well, that's exactly why I gave you a microphone. You want your proper flowers here. That's a significant victory in 1980.

Well, it was, yeah, it was the best that I could possibly do and it was a dream for everybody that was you know a friend of mine or or a fan or Canadian or you know anybody that's ever picked up a snooker queue over here, but yeah, I did it and and you know taking the That you know the trophy, but that's what the fellow said, you know taking it across the oceans now and of course, well, you know that must have hurt a little bit, but I mean, you know, I carried this jera-bomb of champagne all the way across to, or my wife Barbara and I,

like we had an apartment then, and I just, you know, and we took it out on the balcony and the cork went so far, you know, because we were just lugging it around for about a month almost. Wow. Anyways, yeah, just great moments. I have two, I have a story about getting the order of candor, which I'd actually like to tell at some point,

and just one other story about You know what can happen if you're not recognized I had a section here where we talked about some of the the honors Bestowed upon you and there will be absolutely an order of Canada chance to tell that story Which I really really do want actually I think we'll close with all the accolades because I think this is highly significant. Oh, you mentioned Alex Higgins and you had a adversarial, I don't know, I'm putting words in your mouth,

but I did read a quote from Alex where, and he's no longer with us, Alex Higgins, and I shout out to Ridley Funeral Home, but he said, and I won't say this, he said, you're a Canadian C-word, but he didn't say C-word, he said a C-word, okay. You're a Canadian C-word, but he didn't say C-word, he said a C-word. Okay, you're a Canadian C-word who is shit at snooker. This is a quote as he refers to you, Cliff.

That must have fired you up. Yeah, that was, well, I mean, you know, they, I think the thing that hurt me the most was that he, well, not hurt me, you know, that peed me off the most was, you know, the fact that he said that I couldn't play snooker. I mean, you know, we've all been called, you know, whatever, but I mean, that was, yeah. And actually we had a bit of a commotion

after he said that too, so. But did it ever come to fisticuffs or is there a code here? Yeah, no, no, no, no, there was a, yeah, you know, he was, uh, smaller than me, but you can't, you can't persist in saying something to somebody and you know, like, especially saying, you know, the nationalities and all that stuff. Yeah, listen, uh, you can't criticize Cliff for two things. Okay. You can't criticize him for his snooker plane ability and you can't criticize him for his hair. Those are two things that just, you can't criticize Cliff for two things, okay? You can't criticize him for his snooker playing ability

and you can't criticize him for his hair. Those are two things that just, you know? Oh, yeah. Well, you know, Gary Chowen told me to mention hair as many times as I could. Yeah, that's good. Well, Harry, sorry, Gary. You know what, he should change his name to Harry.

No, but Gary, Gary gives a very good haircut. Of course he does, yeah. Well, just ask Cher, she'll tell you. He's a legend, yeah. Gary gives a very good haircut, of course he does. Just ask Cher, she'll tell you. He's a legend, yeah. He's a legend. Yeah, I love Gary. You're a legend here. I'm going to shout out two more partners

and then I'm gonna ask the Gare Joyce questions and then we're gonna talk about you being made an order, sorry, the way to say it properly, I took notes on this. You were made a member of the Order of Canada in 1984 but first I'm going to thank Nick I Ene's for Stepping up to help fuel the real talk so I can have conversations like that with Cliff. Nick has a great podcast called It's called building Toronto skyline here I've been drinking too much beer building Toronto skyline and he's got another podcast called building success and

We hope to see Nick at tmlx 20 at the GLB brew bubble announced that date Shortly, so you guys can put it in your calendar. It'll be capped at 40 attendees. So be ready for that announcement I also want to thank recycle my electronics dot CA because if you have old cables old devices, old electronics, don't throw it in the garbage because those chemicals end up in our landfill. Go to recycle my electronics dot CA, put in your postal code and find out where you should drop it off to be properly recycled. And here are the gear joys questions.

And then we're going to talk about you being made a member of the Order of Canada. I think that is amazing. So Gare Joyce, and this is going to take a bit here, but Gare is a fantastic sports writer and he knows his stuff. And he says, firstly, he says, please ask Cliff about Detroit Red. Cornbread Red. Okay, that's corn. Okay. So he just wrote Detroit red. I'm flying blind here, but yeah the same thing Yeah, sure. What is what is what am I talking about here? Like like is this a person? Like what is Detroit red? What is cornbread red? Well cornbread red is a

Actually, they did a nine ten page feature in Playboy magazine in the nine, 10 page feature in Playboy magazine in the probably the mid 80s, something like that. No, actually maybe the mid 70s. And as far as I know, all of it was true. But I ended up playing a money match with a cornbread bread in Detroit. And this was a pool room way down the end of Michigan Avenue

and not the best part of town then, I don't know what it's like now, but anyways, and we were losing money at first because of the, you know, the balls were a different size. It's not a, you know, it's, and we were getting quite low on money and the fellow that was backing him, I think that he, well, he was a drug dealer

because they had a, now this was the year, this was two weeks before I won my first Canadian championship in 1974, and I'd been a pro for two years, so that's how far that Canada was behind as far as being organized. But now we've had 51 or 52 championships from the same organization.

But anyways, so we're playing and this fellow that was backing cornbread red, everybody had a backer then, he had a jacket that was by the washroom or the toilet door, we'll say, like, you know, a salon kind of a door, right? And one half of it was hanging, right? And he had a leather jacket there,

so somebody would give him some money, and then he'd go over and he'd put his hand in the pocket and grab the stuff. No, I didn't see all of that stuff, but anyways, at the end apparently that's what it was, and I realized that it was true. But anyways, now I started to come back, and we were playing like $500 a game at the time,

it was like a lot of money at the time. And then, so I started to play, well, and then this fellow, the drug dealer said, he said, I deal in, and it starts with a P, U, S, S, okay? And dead bodies, he said. And he said, ain't nobody left this place with the rooster's money. Now the rooster cornbread said, ain't, ain't nobody left this place with the rooster's money. Now the rooster cornbread red, you know, like

he had this big mane of red hair, you know, that sort of flowed down his back a little bit, you know, like way below his neck. Right. But anyways, and, and, and I end up getting the money and, and, and, uh, uh, we had to be, you know, escorted out of the place safely, you know, so that we get into a car and then drive off.

And then I won my first Canadian championship after that. So I was still around things like that. And there's other things, guns and all that stuff. It's just a wrong place as far as storytelling time at the right time. But I mean, wrong place at the wrong time, to be honest with you. Just last week I had Rick Vibe on this program.

Love talking to Rick Vibe. First 50 goals scored in Toronto Made Beliefs history, he did it three times. Gare says, can you ask Cliff about smoking, Rick Vibe and golf? And then Gare goes on to say, years ago it was the basis of a story I edited by a writer named John Doig,

a dried up cigarette filter of a man who managed to suck all the fun out of what had to be more fun than it appeared on the written page. So is this right? This is golf, you're a good golfer? Oh, not a bad golf, I think Rick's a- You'd be Rick. Well, Rick was a better golf than me at one time.

I think, well, you know, what's Rick now? 60, 65 or something? Around there. Still, I mean, that day I was chatting with him. He was golfing in the Joe Carter Classic. Oh yeah, yeah. Well, Rick, yeah, he's a very good golfer. But anyways, I'd smoke in him.

I don't, I don't, you know, I can't remember, I can't remember that, but I, you know, but I always enjoyed seeing Rick. He was always smartly dressed and, you know, he'd have, you know, like two or three outfits for the day kind of a thing. He always sort of, you know, even here, like if he walked in here, you know, right, he probably, okay, like you saw him up by the car.

He went to the washroom with a duffel bag or something, and then he walked in here, he probably, okay, like you saw him up at the car, he went to the washroom with a duffle bag or something, and then he came out with a different outfit. Well, he's a good looking guy, right? He's still a good looking guy. Yeah, sure, yeah. No, I'm not knocking the guy, but he dressed well and was a terrific socializer

and a hell of a hockey player, just played for the wrong team, that's all. Well, listen, do you have any Harold Ballard stories for me? No, no, no. No Harold Ballard stories, okay, okay. Just thinking of that story. Who is, so Gare believes you'll answer the name Kirk Stevens to this question, but he wants me to ask you,

who is the most talented kid ever? And he says he has to say Kirk Stevens. Now, no one tells Cliff what to say, but do you agree with this assessment from Gare? Is this Gary Chow? No, this is Gare Joyce. Oh, Gare Joyce, okay. Yeah, Kirk was, well, like I said,

about the Canadian players. I mean, Kirk was a prodigy, that's for sure. And I won four straight Canadian championships from the age of 26 to 29, I guess, and 74, five, six, seven. And then Kirk came and played in his first one to beat me in the semifinals, which had stopped my run, and then went on to win the final. And then he turned pro, and he was very, very young.

And Kirk was, wow, yes, he was very young. And I Kirk was, well yes, he was very young and I remember Kirk when I first started playing here in Toronto, you know, getting paid to play in a room back in the early 70s and, and, you know, Kirk said, well I'll play you a game and he was like 14 or something or 15 and I said, he said, well I don't, no, he said, I want to play you for the two bucks

or whatever it was. And I said, yeah, sure. So anyways, I won and then he went to pay me with this, geez, I don't know where the money had been. I mean, it was like, you know. And you said keep it. Well, yeah, I said that, but the money itself, it's like one of those things like when you're in school,

like you got one of those straw things, and then you go like this, and it gets stuck on the ceiling. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, spitballs. Like one of those things, and I sort of had to pick it up with my thumb and forefinger just to have a look and see if it was, what it was.

I said, no, no, no, you don't have to pay. He said, no, no, no, right, I've gotta pay you. I gotta pay you. And so like four years later, he beat me for the Canadian championship. And then he went to the UK and should have won this and should have won that. But he made this one for seven.

If you look up Kirk Stevens, white suit, Benson hedges, you'll see, and just what all the raving was about. And like 2,800 people there, and it was just fantastic. He was good enough to win the championship, got to another semi-final two or three years later, and then sort of stopped playing about 86 or 87, something like that.

But genuine, he was the real deal. The real deal here. You're the real deal. The real deal here. You're the real deal, Cliff. You were inducted into Canada's Sports Hall of Fame in 2001. You were inducted into the Snooker Hall of Fame in 2014. You, well, let me hear it from you, but what, the BC Sports Hall of Fame in 1995, of course.

You're from, you hail from Victoria. You're in the BC Sports Hall of Fame in 1995, of course, you're from, you hail from Victoria, here in the BC Sports Hall of Fame. But please, in 1984, you were made a member of the Order of Canada. How did you feel about that? Tell me about that. Well, that was, I was told by a great friend of mine, his name was George Crum,

he was the musical director of the National Ballet, and George was somebody that conducted Nury, and Fontaine, and Baryshnikov did all the music, and then he retired, and then he opened up a pool room at Young and Steele's and started making hot dogs for the boys, and loved that. And he became a great friend of mine. But anyways, he was one of the people

that put my name forward, one of the right people obviously. And I was accepted as, you know, to be a recipient of the Order of Canada. So my wife Barbara and I went up to Ottawa and I remember just being in the, I guess there was 40 or 50 of us in the governor general's home at Rideau Hall.

And we all sort of had to be shunted, you know what I mean? Like if you, like, okay, you get up and then everybody moves down and, but you became the, so I'm saying to myself, okay, just make sure that you do your jacket up when your name comes up. So anyways, you know, and I've got pictures,

wonderful pictures, and so my, you know, my name comes up and I stand up and I, boom, they start walking while my jacket's wide open. Why, wide open like I'm at St. Andrews, like just walking down the fairway with the wind blowing back. Anyways, I got up there and I could see the Roland Mentioner was there and he was,

I could see him looking at me like this guy. And anyways, so, but that's great and everything. I saw that in fact Pierre Elliott Trudeau was actually there. He was just sort of like, you know, over in the corner. He was a prime minister at the time. Just sort of like over in the corner. And he sort of had his, you know, legs sort of crossed,

leaning up against a wall. I thought, well, this is neat. Anyways, I go back and we're having dinner. And then this fellow comes up and says, Mr. and Mrs. Thorburn, His Excellency would like you to come back and have a drink in his private quarters because Ed Schreier did say to me

when he's put a medal on, he said, Clef, my high run is 68, is that good? I said, yes, sir, that is. Well, now I've got a friend in the place and I'm, oh my God, is 68, is that good? I said, yes sir, that is. Well now I've got a friend in the place and I'm, oh my God, you know, but people don't know that, you know, he's my buddy now, you know, at the table. So I'm with about, well I think there's four other couples.

So anyways, so he comes over and says, I said, yeah, sure, love the, and so now we get up and then we end up going to, I guess, private quarters. And of course I walk in and Mr. Shrier's got his jacket off and there's a snooker table there. So this is, yeah. 84, the balls are, you know, well it hasn't been taken care of kind of a thing.

And he wants to have a couple of shots with the pitcher or whatever or show him some shots and it's great. I can't believe it, so it's fabulous. It's funny ways I'm looking believe it, so it's fabulous. So anyways, I'm looking at the table and now there's a rip in the table. There's like, what can happen that when you rip a cloth, it's not just like a little hole appears.

It is a thing, it's sort of like, you know, the nap is, or the cloth, is that fine? That now, like you sort of, you know, like you make the rip, and the rip actually turns into an L, L or half a square kind of thing, or two thirds of a square, you know, third of a square, like this.

And then there's a flap, you see. Well, this is an awfully big flap. This is like, I mean, I could actually pick up the pointed bit and lift it up a foot. Like that's how big it is. Wow. You know, so I said, Oh my God. So this is, uh, Mr. Schreier, this is, you know, this is a big rip, you know, like, you know, thinking about,

you know, maybe having some fun with him. He said, yeah. He said two weeks ago, I said, what happened? He said, Justin Trudeau. So, so I didn't know Justin or hear about him at all. He was just a kid. Well, I'm going to, yeah, because it's probably, I don't know, 10, 11, 12 or something. But I wanted to, you know, I want to meet him just for that fact alone, just to say,

how's your snooker? Or your bull. That's a fantastic, I was wondering what the kicker was going to be. That's great. You know, future Prime Minister Justin Trudeau ripped the table. That's amazing. So when you were inducted in 84, by the way, worthy, and I find it interesting, you're inducted in your prime essentially because you win that championship in 1980, but you're winning invitational masters in 83, 85, 86. You were the first player to win that tournament three times

and the first to retain the title. So in 1984, you're still in your prime. Like I think people like Donovan Bailey, they make them wait. Like, oh you were in your prime in 96, Mr. Bailey, but you know in a couple of decades you can pick up your Order of Canada. Yeah, yeah. I don't know don't know how that how that happened I think it well it certainly might have something to do with the fact that I was you know like a nice acquaintance of Mr. Roy McMurtry yeah and the all the people at Canada House, and fellow Michael Phillips, who was the ambassador to Sweden and Ireland, a real fine friend of mine that passed away

a couple years ago. And just having friends in the UK, it was a different thing. I really think that they just wanted to get the highlight of get the highlight of the snooker, you know, that this guy is doing something and that, you know, that might be a little bit different and- Well, you're representing Canada on the world stage and you're with, you know, wonderfully.

Well, Donovan Baney did a pretty good job too, didn't he? That's right, but he was, you know, they made him wait. Bruni Surin got the Order of Canada before Donovan and Donovan took note of that. Did you say that? Oh, well. Oh, yeah, you took note of that. But Donovan won the double gold.

Bruni won one of those golds with the 4x196 in Atlanta, but Donovan won the 100 meters. He was the fastest man in the world. And I got to say, you're my first professional snooker guest, and I learned so much and I love these convvo's. So I really appreciate you stopping by Cliff. Thanks for having me Mike. Yeah, good fun. I'll have to give Gary Chowen a thumbs up that he delivered.

He said, oh, he's going to be great. And I said, let's find out Gary and you were great. So thanks so much. I didn't leave anything on the floor here that you wanted to talk about, right? Was there anything specific you wanted to mention before I read the outro? Well, the one thing about coming back to North America and a bunch of us went down to Rochester

playing a pool tournament. And so it's a Saturday morning and and this fella comes up to us and said are you guys from Canada and I said yes yes we are he said tell me is it that world champion that you guys got a world champion snooker player at Cliff somebody playing here and I said yeah and he said here in our pool term I said yeah he said well I heard that he's a really good nine ball player and he's talking to me and I said, yeah. He said, well, I heard that he's a really good nine ball player. And he's talking to me. And I said, yes, well, he is. He's very good. He said, well, you must know him. And I said, well, well, I do. He said, well, how well do you know him? And I

said, well, well enough to sleep with his wife once in a while. So I had to tell you that because that's a true story. Oh, that's great. And what a great line to pull out of your back pocket there. This was amazing. We're going to take a photo by Toronto Tree. I'm going to get your lasagna. You've got some fresh beer from Great Lakes to take home with you, Cliff. Thanks again for doing this. And that brings us to the end of our 1722nd show. Go to torontomike.com for all your Toronto Mike needs. Much love to all who made this possible. Again, that's Great Lakes Brewery, Palma Pasta, Toronto's Waterfront BIA, Toronto Maple Leafs Baseball, RecycleMyElectronics.ca, Building Toronto Skyline, and Redlee Funeral Home. See you all. How quickly can I call up a calendar here? I can't believe I don't have it loaded up already. See you all tomorrow

when my special guest is, oh my goodness, it's Friday with Steve Simmons of the Toronto Sun. Have you ever met Steve Simmons of the Toronto Sun? No, I haven't, but I've read his stuff. Yeah, it's terrific. I'm gonna ask Steve Simmons on Friday, he's here at one o'clock, I'm gonna ask him why he doesn't write more about Snooker. See you all then. So So I'm gonna be a star I'm gonna be a star I'm gonna be a star

I'm gonna be a star I'm gonna be a star I'm gonna be a star I'm gonna be a star I'm gonna be a star I'm gonna be a star I'm gonna be a star I'm gonna be a star

I'm gonna be a star I'm gonna be a star I'm gonna be a star you