Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - Culture Reject: Toronto Mike'd Podcast Episode 1676

Episode Date: April 18, 2025

In this 1676th episode of Toronto Mike'd, Mike has a conversation with Culture Reject that was 17 years in the making. Toronto Mike'd is proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, Palma Pasta, Ridley Funeral Home, Silverwax, Yes We Are Open, Nick Ainis and RecycleMyElectronics.ca. If you would like to support the show, we do have partner opportunities available. Please email Toronto Mike at [e-mail]

Come culture reject and pull that wristband You'll protect what is good Yeah we know what is good Who fucking loves New York? Who is the biggest fan? Who is a fire and chili to garden someone New York foreign land? Welcome to episode 1676 of Toronto Miked! Proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, a fiercely independent craft brewery who believes in supporting communities, good times and brewing amazing beer.

Order online for free local home delivery in the GTA. Palma Pasta! Enjoy the taste of fresh, homemade Italian pasta and entrees from Palma Pasta in Mississauga and Oakville. Yes, we are open! An award-winning podcast from Minaris, hosted by FOTML Grego. Silverwax.ca, use promo code TRONOMYKE10, TRONOMYKE10 and save 10%. Recyclemyelectronics.ca, committing to our planet's future, means properly recycling our electronics of the past.

Building Toronto's skyline, a podcast and book from Nick Gainey's, sponsored by Fusion Corp Construction Management Inc. and Ridley Funeral Home, pillars of the community since 1921. Okay, I want to do something completely different. And it begins with a short story. On August 6th, 2008, I received a message through my blog, torontomike.com, from a regular

reader. His name is Brian, and here is exactly what he wrote me back in August 2008. Hey, Mike. I wanted to ask you about this song a month ago, but I had to see if I would still like it. Culture reject inside the cinema has really grown on me. I have decided to tell people about it. I heard it on XM52 The Verge. If you had not heard it, if you have not heard it, I hope you like it too. If you get a minute, tell me what you think.

If you have not heard it, I hope you like it too. If you get a minute, tell me what you think. Now I get many such emails, but I decided to listen to Inside the Cinema from Culture Reject despite not knowing a single thing about Culture Reject. I listened once and I really liked it. So I listened again and again. And here we are almost 17 years later and I'm still listening. Inside the Cinema from Culture Reject keeps appearing on my various playlists. And I realized earlier this year that I still didn't have any idea who or what a Culture Reject is. I'm just in love with this song that

Brian shared with me during the summer of 2008. Then I realized I have a popular podcast and I could use this forum to discover as much as I could about culture reject. So in that vein, it gives me great pleasure to welcome Michael O'Connell to Toronto Miked. Welcome to Toronto Miked, Michael. Thanks for having me. This is a really, this is a really nice moment for me. Well, are you, this is the big question off the top, Michael,

are you Culture Reject? Hmm. It has been a really lovely moniker to make music as underneath, I guess I would say it underneath, I'm under this name yeah yeah I mean what that's a yes that's a big yes yeah yeah I could say yes I gotta make sure you know once I I had this idea similar idea that oh the first concert I ever attended at the Ontario Place Forum was Chalk Circle and I'm

like I need Chris Tate from Chalk Circle. And then I had heard through other channels, Chris Tate was now in advertising, like he would be working for an agency. So I kind of did this search for like Chris Tate musician agency, and then I found a contact form and I filled it out. And then I booked Chris Tate. And then at the door was a different Chris Tate. Like this happened. And I eventually did get, and a booked Chris Tate and then at the door was a different Chris Tate. Oh my god.

Like this happened, yeah yeah. And I eventually did get, and a great Chris Tate, he's in a band called the Lazarets, but it's just- I know the Lazarets. Okay, so there's a Chris Tate, I believe he's the main guy in the Lazarets, but it was a great convo, which I winged, I didn't have any prep for it or anything, like I did the episode and it's a good episode, and then I tracked down The other Chris Tate and I did that but I need to be so clear before we continue though when I listen to Culture reject inside the cinema. I'm hearing your voice. Yeah, you're hearing that I

Need to find out more about you like pre culture reject what it all means so like for example What does the name culture reject? Like where does that name come from? From my head, but also like right around that time, early 2000s, I had just moved from Toronto to Toronto from Guelph and started working at an organization called Sketch Working Arts, which is just an arts hub forum initiative for young people living pretty much on the street at that point, or marginalized in different ways and all the ways that people can be marginalized.

And I just recognized a lot of resilience in young people that I hadn't really seen. And I saw a lot of people who were, I would say kind of forgotten, oh, I would say, kind of forgotten, you know, oh, these are just squeegee kids or it'll be this sort of thing. These sorts of judgments. And I, I, I was working with these folks every day we were making music together. I was doing all sorts of different kinds of arts with them. And, uh,

I was like, I was like, Oh my God, no, you guys are organized. You guys are are organized. You guys are so organized. You guys have a very particular way of thinking. It's almost like you have your own very particular philosophies. It's almost academic, the way that you are seeking an alternative way to live.

And I just started to, I don't know, think about who is rejected by culture, who is the dominant culture, what is hegemony and who gets to sort of claim it, who gets to be rejected and when those folks are rejected, are they being rejected or are they actually doing the rejecting? Are they looking for an alternative economy? Are they looking for an alternative way for people to support one another and be in community? Yeah, so that's kind of the the basis to that name. So when do you start using this moniker culture reject? What year do you remember? It would have been probably

2007 so I had taken a pretty long hiatus from playing music I played in a band called black cabbage for a long time out of Guelph and we toured all over Canada and then I started touring a bit solo and that was all over Canada and also all over southern Ontario and eventually I was like oh my god I don't know how to do this anymore. Is this all there is? Is this do I? How can I? So I think I was also in this place where it and maybe you've interviewed other musicians who've the same, it just, it, um, it's hard when you're constantly having to go to someone else's studio and record there and just not having that much control over your own production. And so I took maybe two or three or four years off from just making music and performing, and I just kind of dug into production and

audio and taught myself things, made a record. And so around, then I started shopping it around to some people in this record company from the really small startup from Vancouver, Whitewell, said, oh my God, we really like this song inside the cinema. You keep saying Culture Reject in it. I said, yeah, and they said, why don't you just call yourself Culture Reject?

Okay, so I was gonna ask what came first. Yeah, so this- Like are you name checking yourself? Because Culture Reject. Okay so I was gonna ask what came first. Yeah so are you name-checking yourself because Culture Reject is said many times in Inside the Cinema. It's really true. Some people are like oh it's like your Public Enemy song you know and I was like yeah in a sense but it was definitely a lyric before it was a name. So yeah that the writer Have Dale from White Whale and I think another member of one of the bands and they were like we think it'd be great if you did if you did if you recalled that so I was like yeah I feel like I could roll with that moniker. Okay so we're gonna crack a Great Lakes beer now because I have

so many questions for you Michael. So glad to have you here I can't believe you're here. I'm so glad to be here too. Okay so we'll count in three two oh look at that. Okay. So cheers. Cheers. So we're drinking Sunnyside Session IPA, which is the summer brew from Great Lakes Brewery. And this, this thing came off like it was probably brewed like last week. Okay. This is super fresh. I love Great Lakes breweries.

Okay. Good answer because I'm going to send you home with some Great Lakes beer. Well, there's a pack in front of you right there. Yeah. Fresh, fresh beer. That's beautiful. That's delicious. No, this is my summer brew because It's a lower alcohol. So I don't start slurring my speech after a couple of cans

Which is kind of important when you're recording a podcast. So Weird it inside. I mean, okay, so I have a few more course So black cabbage like when did you realize you wanted to get into music? And how did you end up in Black Cabbage in Guelph? Great question. The how did I know I wanted to get up in music was really young I played in a trio called Quest in Niagara when I was probably I think we started that in grade five this is when nobody there's no such thing as YouTube or Any kind of any kind of idol show or

anything like that it's just we just saw we just said why don't we play in a band and about ten of us started talking about doing that only three of us decided to do it and I said I'll play bass I don't even know what bass is so I just started learning how to play the bass by grade seven we were playing in bars but weren't allowed to stay in the bar we just played the bar and then left the bar and then left the bar. And then, so it was really in my blood at a very early age. I think when I was 16, I opened for Nash the Slash and FM.

So earlier now, again, I have to disclose to the listenership that we're recording on a Wednesday, but it's not dropping on a Wednesday. It's probably dropping maybe on a Friday. But just earlier today, you mentioned being too young for the bars, but playing in the bars. That's the story of Rob Bruce from spoons. Okay. He was 15 years old with spoons as a keyboardist, younger than the rest of spoons. And he had a special note to get them into these bars or whatever. So he could play these, these bars cause he was under age. And I'm

bringing the reason I'm bringing him up is not because of that, but because he owed me a new closing theme or he puts these Easter eggs and he couldn't deliver it and I said Rob Like why are you late? And he said because he was busy making music for the new Nash the slash documentary amazing by done by Kevin Byrne who? From King Cobb Steely. That's who's I think a big part of that documentary Okay, possibly possibly the gentleman I know who's associated is Colin Brunton, who made the last pogo for the Garys at the Horseshoe Tavern.

And I know he was raising money. He came on this program to raise funds. And I can tell you, cause I'm excited to mention it, is that somebody, a listener of this program heard him on the show and gave $10,000. And then they got some subsequent grants and stuff and it got the enough money to go ahead with this national slash doc so amazing it's been production and Rob Bruce is helping to make music for it oh I love it I love this so much okay so

you're a you're a Nash the slash head you into FM I mean at that time I didn't really know anything about them people were super impressed that we were opening for them in Welland at a big exhibition fairgrounds. That's national slash rises again. What I was really excited about was meeting him backstage without his bandages on and that was supposedly a really big thing. And I was like, and I didn't, to be honest, none of this meant as much to me then as it does now. Like I was like, oh, that's, I love that that's part of my come-up. I'm a fan of that.

Yeah, it's part of your story. Okay, so this is all happening and then you, how do you end up in Black Cabbage? I go to Guelph University. But you're not from Guelph? You just went there for uni? Where are you from? From St. Catharines.

Okay, St. Catharines, okay. That's where I kinda sorta went. That was my big place to come up. And then, yeah, I went to Guelph University. Didn't really, I didn't love university first year. I took off. I went into a program called Canada World Youth and doing that and traveling internationally. I just came home with just a real inspiration to really play music and write music. So I was doing a lot of that and then I just met these really strange crew of people who I just who I still still connect with a lot but

we traveled all over the country there was eight of us in a van we bought the bourbon Tabernacle choir van about five Chris Brown's been over oh lovely person yeah lovely person Chris Brown sorry Christopher Hugh Brown he's rebranding apparently too many Chris Browns. There really are a lot of Chris Browns. I believe I've played his bar. He owns the, in Wolf. Wolf Island.

Wolf Island, yeah. Yeah, he owns that. Is that a hotel? Yeah, it's a really, really fun little place. Yeah, he owns that. And then we toured a lot and yeah. Yeah, he owns it. And then we toured a lot. And also, I learned a lot about being in a band

with eight people. That's a lot. There was five songwriters. I learned a lot. And I learned, you know, yeah. That sounds like broken social scene or something like that. A little pre-broken social scene, yeah. That's a lot of people.

So you're in Guelph. You're in, I'm going to call them the Cabbage Band. What's the name of people so you're you're in Guelph you're in uh i'm gonna call them the cabbage band what's the name of this band black cabbage this is uh you're in Guelph in a band uh and then what brings you to Toronto that's a good question um i i feel like Guelph was just a bit small for me like uh it was just getting small. And I guess that could mean so many things. It just felt like, I just felt like I just needed to go. I loved Guelph. I love the people in Guelph.

It had nothing to do with the place itself. I just felt like I just needed to change. I'm trying to think of bands from Guelph. Is Gandarvas from Guelph? They're from London. London. Yeah. Showing my ignorance here.

Are there any big bands I'm missing from? The Constantines definitely. Of course. Yeah, the Constantines were from Guelph. Yeah. Showing my ignorance here. Are there any big bands I'm missing from? The Constantines. Of course. Yeah, the Constantines were from Guelph. Yeah. King Kong Steely was one of the other really big bands from Guelph. Like then there's bands like Tamarack.

I don't know if they're an older folk band. Jeff Bird is a friend of mine. He plays, he's a founding member of the Cowboy Junkies or was definitely on the Trinity Sessions. Amazing. Yeah, there's lots of really fabulous musicians from Guelph. So is this when you take that little hiatus you told me about? Or so you come to Toronto and then you take a break from music? Yeah. Yeah. So post Black Cabbage, you're taking a bit of a break, but then you start like, I'm just wondering, so you said this Vancouver label heard inside the cinema. And if you're listening, you're going to hear inside

the cinema. Don't worry in this episode. Okay. It's going to, we're going to hear it, but how did it exist to hear it? Like what made you record? Like, did you write inside the cinema? Yeah. Yeah. So inside the cinema is all yours. Yeah. Okay. Are you playing the instruments on inside the cinema? Yes. Okay. So and soon in moments, are you willing to dive souply deeper than you've ever dove before into this song inside the cinema? I can. I might need to be. It might need to be a facilitated conversation, which I think you're doing perfectly for me. So I don't know. I never know how to talk about my music to be honest but I'm happy to hold my hand you're fulfilling a 17 year your quest here this is 17 years in the making and

I will say until we made contact and I can't remember if I found you on Facebook or where I found you I can't remember anymore I think was Facebook but I actually didn't know whether I was gonna find a guy who's in Toronto or is this guy going to be in Australia? Like I actually didn't really have any sense of who Culture Reject was and where he was. Like I didn't know you'd be like a guy who could be in the basement coming from Toronto. Right. I didn't know. Okay. I knew nothing. So I'm going in cold here learning about you. So. Tell me a little bit about writing and then not specifics, because we'll do that together. But what made you get back into the studio and record inside the cinema so that it can be heard by this label in Vancouver? I think you said. Okay. That was, it was a series of experiments

trying to just learn how to record myself. So I was working with really like the technology around 2000, around 2004, where like, it's where they started turning like four tracks into digital boxes. So you'd have all the faders and you would have this tiny little screen. And I was like, oh my God, I don't know what I'm doing,

but I've watched people do this stuff before when I've been in studios with them. What software were you using? I think it was a Tascam, it was a Tascam V something. It was a blue box. And you could record like a hundred songs on it. And I just did everything I possibly could, making a ton of mistakes. I mean even when I hear that recording I'm like, oh my god I hear just how like little

I knew about production and doing it. But what I was doing in, I was writing while I was learning how to use these tools, which I started to learn as a really fun way for me to write songs because I was, at that point, I was always just writing on an acoustic guitar chord progressions and I would sing them and then I'd bring them to other musicians and they would come into parts and I was like,

I have all these parts to songs that I really wanna record. And so I started to put all all those parts on to the music I would get a little drum kit and do a little bit of drumming and get a, have a shitty little piano and I would, you know, do that, that kind of thing. Sorry. So no, no, don't, don't say sorry. Cause I'm going to break this song into parts. Great.

So we'll listen to a part. Okay. And then you're going to just bury me in information. Like in terms of like what you remember about writing it or playing it like anything Okay, I know so I has anybody ever done such a deep dive into inside the cinema with you It's okay to have I don't need to be the first but I'm just curious I don't know. I don't think so in such such an intentional way for like this song Did very well for me. Like I was able to tour, I immediately took off

and started touring in like all over Europe and the States for this. And so I've had definitely, it's been at the forefront of a lot of different interviews and things like that. But this feels specific, this feels different. So after we talk about it, for the next several hours, then I want a sense of like what doors it opened and how it was received.

Because I read the email I got in that email. So it sounds like you record this at 07. So I get this email in August 08 and he had heard it on XM 52. Yeah. Which I'm not even 100% sure what that is. Yeah, I mean, I actually went on The Verge. I remember going on The Verge and actually performing it. So you played it live on The Verge. Okay, so I think that's where Brian heard it.

Yeah, okay. And then, cause he sent me a file, and now, I mean, I think there was a YouTube link to the performance or something like that But now we're going back, you know 17 years, but we are I'm gonna play this So I'm gonna play it in the parts and we're gonna talk about it at the end of this episode I'm gonna play it in its entirety for the listenership. Okay, okay So here we go the inside the cinema culture reject. I've got Michael O'Connell

aka culture reject in the studio. Let's our first part here. We're going to head into the lyrics there. Did that jog any memories? Anything you can share about the composition, the recording of that opening 35 seconds? Yeah, I kind of fell in love. I just was noodling on my guitar one day and came up with that little bass line. And I might be all I can say about that. I mean, I just I really just loved the the conciseness of the loop and I could play that for quite a while. And that's

the dumb dumb dumb because then you have that and I don't know my music enough to know what I'm hearing where but that that tick tick that part what is that exactly that's also a guitar so I have a it's just a it starts with a with a looped guitar it's at both electric guitar so one is just sort of playing a bass line and the other starts to just come in with this textured bit of kind of G to e minor and at the very very beginning it sort of opens with some kind of like a like a Orchestra or something a symphony that is actually Not part of the original recording that is from that would be the audio from the video

So so good point. So the original file I had did not include that symphony, right? And when I was pulling this from youtube, i'm like, oh, that's a it's a new part. Yeah. And that was actually like fun, little bit of trivia. The director of that video was Peter Germanis. He was the singer from July Talk. Yeah, I met them at Humble and Fred Studios many moons ago. And they're playing a special. In fact, we talked about it on

toast, but they're doing a, uh, people are covering the tragically hip and there's a benefit for the food, food bank. And I think this is also for Dave Bookman, memory of Dave Bookman. So this is all happening. And this is, uh, I think Stephen Stanley, he used to live on Wolf Island and his dear friends, very dear friends of Chris Brown because when Chris was in the basement, Stephen Stanley was right beside him. And then Ron Hawkins was on the other side. These are a couple of founders of lowest of the low.

But an Elliot Lefkoe is the other guy who's promoting this show that I'll be talking about at a later date. And Elliot Lefkoe brought Nirvana to Toronto for the first time to play Lee's Palace exactly 35 years ago today Whoa? Wow, that's a that's a moment. That's there you go. There you go. They had a different drummer back then Okay, so I'm gonna play it again. So now that I heard you so just again, you say you're noodling around the guitar You have this and the symphony parts added but for the video okay not necessarily by you so this part not part of your original song

and you can talk over at this time okay thank you yeah there's your like bass line there that yeah yeah this is like and then you add that so you're playing both parts yeah Yeah. And then... Yeah. See, I liked it right away. Even just this part, I'm like, okay, I'm in. Let's hear where this goes. Okay, so you ready for the second part? All right.

Unless you have anything more to add on that first part. I think... I feel like that's it. I'm going to just say it's still really fun to play that part. Whenever I perform this song, I really. Okay, cool. Very bouncy. Yeah, it's fun. Okay, that's why we're talking about it 17 years later here.

Okay, second part here. Or All right, any thoughts on this second? This is 30 seconds approximately. Yeah, I totally remember. I lived. So I mean, this is recorded. I got to, you know, this is actually bringing up so much now for me, but this was recorded on College Street at 795 College Street, it's where I raised my children. We were on the third floor of a three-floor walk-up in this building. This is a crazy building.

We were renovated from this building, like maybe seven or eight years ago. But leading up to that, there was members of the Arrogant Worms that lived there. There was also Casey from Elliott Brood was living in the basement and I borrowed, I went downstairs I said, Casey do you got an acoustic guitar I could borrow? I'm just doing some recording today and he's like yeah I'm gonna take this. So that's Casey's, Casey Laferay I think his name is, that's his guitar on there. And then like all over that building to where the members of Baroness fun sketch They were you know for years were working and right Carolyn Taylor one of the Carolyn Taylor FOTM Carolyn Taylor his sister's listening right now. Hello to Leslie nice beautiful

and so it was it was a building where there was just a lot of Creative activity and energy going on so it's actually just really brought me back to the heart, to the heart of that. That's the goal here, Michael. By the way, does anyone ever call you Mike or it's gotta be Michael? It's interesting about maybe 10 years ago, I said, hi, I'm Michael.

And then they immediately said, hey everyone, this is Mike. And I said, actually, no, it's Michael. Because Mike fixes my car. I mean, Mike is good. and I was Mike for a long time But I finally it was like I think I'm just Michael. Did you just grow out of Mike? Maybe I'll do that one day Although I feel like I don't think I don't think you're much older than me But and when you met me you're like, I know you like you recognize me, right? Yeah. Yeah, totally Has it come do you have any idea where yet? I don't I don't think I know but I I mean

Like I don't know what you were doing before this podcast. I think I must have seen this podcast before. Maybe you saw a clip on I don't know Instagram or YouTube or something. Maybe that's maybe you saw a photo or something. Yeah. Okay who knows? Elliot Brood they had a song I can hear my head right now but I got to get the title that I also stuck on playlists for years and years and years. The Bridge. Brood, they had a song, I can hear my head right now, but I got to get the title, that I also stuck on playlists for years and years and years. The Bridge. Oh, I don't... Elliot Brood had a song, I think it was called The Bridge. That's, I think so, but Elliot Brood

Bridge. I feel like, oh yeah, it is called the bridge. It's from 2005 and much like culture reject inside the cinema, that's a song I couldn't get out of my head and it kept appearing on playlists of mine. And so shout out to Elliot Brod and the bridge. I love it. Another, maybe I gotta get them over here just to do like an hour on the bridge. Okay, if this goes well, this is like the prototype.

If it's going great so far here. Okay. So the layer, anything to say, cause now we hear your lyrics in this second, second segment here. I do remember I'm still sort of stuck in the production of this in some ways. So this was mixed by a really fabulous, um, uh, engineer, um, producer, uh, engineer and mixer named Andy McGoughen, who runs House of Miracles out of Cambridge. And I just remember he just listened to the two vocals I had, because I doubled the vocals,

that you maybe could tell that there's a layering there. And I, like, I don't, some people do that in a very specific way. I just sort of threw two vocals on it. So it makes my voice sound thicker. And better. Butch Vig did that to Nirvana. Exactly, exactly too. And I think maybe I even knew that. my voice sound thicker. Nirvana, Butch Vig did that to Nirvana. Exactly, exactly too.

And I think maybe I even knew that. I was like studying how. You probably saw the same, whatever, and much more music thing I saw. Or much, yeah, where he showed how he doubled them. It's like, oh, you can do that? Okay. And I remember Andy just, he had both of them up

and he just goes, I don't really know what to do with this second vocal. So he found a way to just sort of tuck it in and make it sound good. But I appreciated that moment. Okay, so we're doing number two again. Okay. Like I said, this is very thorough.

Okay. So now that we heard you talk, anything you want to say over it this time? Okay. I'm just, I'm remembering the very first time I performed this in France and there was... This song got you to France. Yeah. And I just remember I started to sing and I realized that there was about 10 or 15 people in this club that were singing, that was singing.

So I just stopped singing and they just kept singing. And I was like, wow, it was really, it was like a real beautiful episode and yeah. You ready for the next 30 seconds? Ready for it. So they're almost exactly 30 second clips Although the final one I let go for a minute, but here we go So So there's where you said, you know, it's you say culture reject in the song and this is before you were using that moniker. Yeah, yeah, that was it. So in in this moment, maybe lyrically, I could dive in a little bit. This is this is sort of where I was really feeling, I think, a

real privilege. You know, it's funny when you work in social services, when you work in any kind of situation, say as a mentor or as a counselor or these kind of things. It's just really easy to feel that you're there as an expert and you're there to help people. And I think when you're really open to those experiences, you recognize how much privilege you have to be in those spaces and how much you're actually learning, what an exchange it is to work. So I was mentioning just working with young people, just facing a lot of different economic and social barriers,

a lot of transphobia and racism and things like that and working with these young people. And I was learning a lot from them. And I was like, you know, people really are hard on you guys. You're facing a lot of poverty and the way that you still the values and the principles that you're upholding around community is amazing to me. So that's really what it's kind of the essence of the culture reject. You protect what is good.

And then as a group, yeah, we know what is good, you know? Beautiful. So now we hear that again. Again, this time you can talk over it if you like. Now you got the idea what's going on here. That ding ding ding. Yeah. It's an Indonesian That ding ding ding. Yeah. It's an Indonesian kind of, it's like a xylophone, and it's got five tones on it. And it's not even in tune. It's just slightly out of tune, but my now wife had it hanging on her wall. And I'm like, what does this sound like?

Wow. It just... Because to my ears, again, I'm not a musician, but I'm just like, oh, that sounds like a xylophone. That is exactly what I thought. It goes like ding, ding, ding. And it just it's used so kind of effectively to kind of offset the whole thing. OK, cool. You ready for the next 30 seconds? Yeah.

This is fun, right? We're having a good this is really fun for me. Yeah. Here we go. But what's the effect when we move away from it? I'll purge what's inside my chest Hold me if I can't handle it I'll watch while you put on some airs I love that built hurry fan That loads like a cinema Okay. Wow. So much is coming up to me right now. Okay. So I just spill it into this mic.

Couple of shout outs. So one Bradley photo is on the trumpet. Bernard Padron from Venezuela, amazing saxophone players doing some horns there. And then I've totally forgot my friend Jake Charkey from somewhere in Vermont is playing, that's not a bass, it's a cello. He's playing that bass line on a cello. So that's kind of fun. And what was the other part that really struck me? Well, I can play it quieter

and then you can just talk over it. Sure, yeah. Okay, here we go again. Okay, this is like, this is really a part where I was like, oh, I'm learning so much from people. And this part is all about a conversation I was having with a young person named Cam. And Cam was the first person to introduce me to sort of gender neutral language. Started talking to me a lot about trans people. And that was a huge education for me. And

the hardest thing I ever had to do was write a letter of recommendation for Cam. I remember at this time Cam said, Hey, would you, would you, or I said, I said, I wanted to nominate them for a photography award from gallery 44. And they said, okay, that's fine. How are you going to write that? How are you going to write that letter of recommendation for me when I use they, them pronouns? I'm like, who uses they me when I use they, them pronouns? I'm like, who uses they, them pronouns?

What is they, them pronouns? I have no idea what that means. And it was the hardest thing I'd ever done at that point in my life was writing a letter of recommendation for someone in the third person without using he or she. And it blew my mind and it actually created new neural pathways in my brain.

And that was it, it's like, I won't judge, but what's the effect when we move away from it when I was just moving away from all this comfort in just everything I was thinking about life up until that point and then I just sort of rocked my world yeah okay well the songs rock in my world okay so thank you this next segment goes a whole 40 seconds okay so broke this into 40 here we go. So, Michael, as a listener, I feel like we build up to this segment here, okay? So you're building, you know, we're in the groove, but this is actually the 40 seconds.

I think that Who Fucking Loves New York, what is that lyric exactly? Who Fucking Loves New York? Okay, I feel like that's the heart, like once you get there, it's like, that's like sort of the apex. Yeah. it's like, like that's like sort of the the the apex. Yeah, I wasn't it wasn't intending to be that way. The song was just building towards this. I had a lot to do with this is a really strangely autobiographical song in a lot of ways or it's from my story, which includes a lot of other people

at the time. And it was definitely about being in Toronto at this time. And I felt like I was noticing that Toronto's identity was starting to, I just felt like we were, like we didn't really know who we were. And everyone was sort of started going, I started to feel more like New York. And I just started recognizing a lot of people wearing hey Yankees hats all the time.

There's a lot of New York paraphernalia. And so it's kind of a bit of a dig. Ites hats. There's a lot of New York for a finale. And so it's kind of a bit of a dig. It's like who fucking loves New York? Like who is who is its biggest fan? Who's a fiery cheerleader caught up in some on New York foreign land? Which was for me at the time, I guess, Toronto, because Toronto didn't feel like New York to me.

It felt like Toronto. And in 2008, that is precisely the part that struck home. And it's funny talking to you about this in 2005, where I feel like what we're in mid April here, in the bulk of this calendar year has been like, we're not fucking New York. Like, you know, we're Toronto, we have a unique identity. This country is a sovereign nation.

We're not the United States. We'll never be the United States. Like you were ahead of the curve on this sentiment Oh, thanks for saying there you go. Yeah, there's there's there's a lot in there I actually have to also I think I got to acknowledge fully that the so this clapping part I really yeah, I had a clapping and when I ask you about the clapping I love the clapping and the clapping shows up a lot at concerts as well as it We you know people people know the pattern my kids really know this pattern. Well, how many kids you got?

I have two kids. How old are they now? They're 25 and 26 hmm, and they've you know all through this time they grew up in that apartment in Toronto and And they all through this time I learned that if my kids were humming any melody of mine any kind of time any any time They were singing lyric of a song that I was developing, they would right away go, I would say right away to myself,

okay, I'm gonna pursue this song. If my kids are catching onto it, if it's catchy for them, then I'm gonna just do it. And I remember them always really appreciating the song. Yeah. No, that's fantastic. I'm going to play it again though. Okay.

And then anything you wanna say over top, please. Okay. Here. I'm going to play it again though. Okay, and anything I want to say over top guys here There's no drums on this You know song like it's I find it interesting when I listen back like I think drum I put drums and everything and I but it interesting when I listen back, like I think drum, I put drums on everything. And I, but I, I should, I should remember just how a song can be held together by claps and a little, a little pounding. There is one drum, it's a floor tom, but that's what you're hearing right now. But and a tambourine, you know, and that, and a bit of washy acoustic guitar can kind of hold the thing. I, it's the thing I like about the song. It's tender.

It's a tender song. It's a, it's a, yeah. Also the clapping, it might, it may have been a bit inspired by Mushaboom by Feist. There was a really beautiful clapping pattern in the end. I was like, Oh, clapping kind of works in a song, you know? And I'm, I think I love hearing the inspirations too. And it's all part of this journey here. So I was breaking them into 30 second clips, but I realized this last Basically this last minutes gonna be intact here. Okay, so we're gonna do 57 seconds to take us home. You ready Michael? Make myself good, make myself good, make myself good I wanna get home, I wanna get stoned Make myself food, make myself good Make myself good, make myself good, make myself

Come culture reject, expect, respect You contact what is good Yeah we know what is good. Come, come, come, culture reject. Full respect. Do not pretend to know. You will just get depressed. This is the video part, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so that's why I pulled up the video. H area. If I had to put my own applause into this, so that opening opening symphony and that final applause were added for video. Okay. Yeah. But tell me about this closing minute here. Yeah. Okay. Like it's um I mean actually what really I'm trying to think of What really comes to mind is when we did shoot the video we shot the entire thing backwards, so the whole last this last Perfect 40 seconds that you you clipped here was

I had to learn all of the lyrics I had to learn how to say them all backwards so I practiced and practiced and saying them all backwards and they shot it backwards so that we could do this thing where, uh, like I think a spit on an apple backwards, but then when we played it forwards, you know, well, this is what the far side did. Do you remember the far side of the hip hop? Well, I remember, yeah, they had the video that they did it all backwards. Yeah. Okay. That's one thing that artists have to be always afraid of is that, you know, I've got this great idea for a video or this or that and then it turns out someone else's act totally doesn't. So, okay, so you want to play it again and then anything else that strikes you and then I've got some follow-up questions. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. I can easily say that this section here is, uh, one of the, it's one of my favorite things I've ever

written I think it's there's a simplicity to it I think I'm just speaking my truth in this moment and it's resonated a lot with people I really love when people talk to me about this part in the song for them people scream it that shows which is always nice too you know the whole song is only three minutes and 30 seconds but it's all killer no filler man. Thank you for saying. Not a dull moment and we we broke it into six parts here. Will your you have two adult children I actually have two adult children as well. Will your two adult children listen to this episode of Toronto Mic? I think I I hope so. Phoebe and Isaac are fabulous fans but

also huge inspirations and supporters for my music and I hope they do because they should know how much I love and appreciate them. So I want to understand to contextualize like what did Inside the Cinema mean in the catalog of Culture Reject? Like it is it the most talked about song the biggest I don't know I put hitting quotations because what the heck is a hit or whatever but maybe tell me a bit about like the reaction and the doors it opened and then what this song did for you um like everywhere from you know it was amazing going to Paris and just having an artist,

like somebody sort of hiding in the darkness of this club I was setting up in and he goes, I've been waiting for you. In fact, this happened a couple of times. This guy from Brooklyn goes, he was from Brooklyn, but we were in Paris and he just goes, I've been waiting for you. And I go, what? Well, he goes, yeah, I've been in Paris for a month

and I just looked and found out you're here and I love. And so like, there was just these little moments I played in Iceland airwaves and Reykjavik and this kid from Estonia same thing he's like he found me after the club and he I was like wow there's a lot of pot smoking around here and I just came out and this kid just goes I've been waiting to see you so there was just this really I think it it captured a lot of people at the time especially people who weren't into big huge pop hits but they but they, you know, had a bit of an underground feel to it. Well, you never know who's listening and who it's gonna resonate with, right?

Because like I carried this around for 17 years. Like, and yeah, and this it's all true, obviously. I just saw and I didn't know anything about it. Like, and I actually now as I speak to you, I don't know why I never took time to do a little research and find out what I was listening to. I just had this song called Inside the Cinema from someone called Culture Reject that I just fucking loved. I love that. Carried you off for 17 years. And you were in my backyard this whole time. Like this is, this was recorded on college. Yeah. Like it could have been recorded in Paris, France. Like, I don't know. Right. Like I didn't, this guy didn't say, Hey, this is a local artist or a GTA artist or whatever.

He's just like, you'll dig this. And I listened and I said, I just held onto it. It's a bit of a mind blow. A lot of these artists who come in the basement here would be excited if they got to Paris, Ontario with their music. You got to Paris, France. Yeah. Yeah. I feel, I feel grateful for that. So how did people discover this song? That's a good question. I think I think XM satellite radio was a huge boost for me. I'm trying to think of a few other places that may have shown up. It was definitely I was on it was on a TV show, a global show called the best years. I don't even think I ever saw it was played in the background the background, but I definitely, I got some so can checks for that. Okay. So there was a show that I never heard of that show either. So a show had this in

the background. Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, it was, it was, it was in competition. It was, it was, it would have, it was in competition with a, with feists one, two, three, four for that, uh, the apple, the apple. Yeah. The apple ad. Whoa. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We're bearing the lead here. That song that sorry, that campaign made Feist like, I mean, Feist, a fantastic artist, you know, other than Gord Downey, Feist is the only human being who is a saying lead for the tragically hip. Do you know that I had a history of the tragically hip first is the only human not named Gordon Downey well to sing lead for that band.

Wow. It's big. Yeah, that is really big. And Feist did her, I believe she made that album in France. She did with Gonzalez, with Chili Gonzalez. Chili, right. And we talked about Broken Social Scene earlier

and that collective, it's all coming full circle here today. So it was like considered that that song, and I could hear it as part of it, I can't look in my mind as I visualize it. It would have been perfect. Like does that frustrate you? You know what? I have just learned that success, oh my God, success is just, I mean this is successful.

I'm sitting here with you. This to me is a beautiful moment in what I would call the success of my career. So, and I'm really grateful for everywhere I've been able to tour. So in these moments, like what would have life, what life would have been like, would have just been different. It's a wonderful life.

Yeah. What would the world be like without Inside the Cinema? I kind of love that Fais hit a big moment with that. I think, yeah. Shadow to Leslie. She's awesome. Yeah. I mean, she's great, but you're great.

This is great. So, uh, I need to know, uh, what happened after Inside the Cinema. Like I need to know what happened in the next 17 years that led us to today. Oh goodness. Yeah. I can, I can, I don't know, I don't know how much time we have, but I will, uh, I will, um, I'll give some the Coles notes as my sister would say. Okay now I'm actually thinking you're going to do that I want the Coles notes of

everything since Inside the Cinema. Okay. But I think I'm gonna give you a few gifts quickly here. Oh amazing. And then we're gonna do that okay so I've already given you the beer. Yeah the beers thank. Thank you. I mean, I just organically love Great Lakes. I always look for Great Lakes breweries. They're delicious. Well, they're fiercely independent and that's all brewed right here in southern Etobicoke and they have a fine podcast called Between Two Fermenters, but I'm gonna shout out another fine podcast called Life's Undertaking and that's from Brad Jones at Ridley Funeral Home and this measuring tape is courtesy of Ridley Funeral Home.

I'll be using that. And I'm going to shout out a podcast called Building Toronto Skyline from Nick Ienies. He's a proud sponsor of this show. And there's a great episode about the CN tower turning 50. The CN tower turned 50 years old this month. Oh, wow. Okay.

And we talked about it on Building Toronto Skyline. And there's a website I'm gonna tell you about called recyclemyelectronics.ca and if you have old cables, old devices, old electronics. I have some in my car. Don't throw it in the garbage. We never do. We always have a little a little box going in and we find that but that's okay. So this is where you go. You go to recyclemyelectronics.ca put in your postal code. Okay. And then you'll is where you go. You go to recyclemyelectronics.ca, put in your postal code. Okay.

And then you'll find out where to drop it off to be properly recycled. Perfect. Here's some new electronics. This is a wireless speaker from Minaris. This is awesome. Yeah, well, yeah, we're warming up here. Now that wireless speaker,

you can listen to anything you want on that, but you must promise me you'll check out season eight of Yes, We Are Open, which is an award-winning podcast from Monaris. Okay. And it's hosted by FOTML Grego, who's a heck of a singer himself. Okay. Have you, did Culture Reject, did Inside the Cinema ever take you to Regina? Yes. Oh no no no, I went to Regina before. I didn't really tour as much as Culture Reject. So no, I did not. But you've been to Regina. I've been to Regina. I've played there a few times. Yeah.

Okay. Did you have a good experience in Regina? We busked for three hours in the afternoon, Black Cabbage busked for about three hours in the afternoon. We were all angry at each other, hungry, poor, well, at least not had no money at the time. And then we played to no one that night at the bar. Not the best experience. Yes, we had a good time, but don't worry. This is not brought to you by the Regina tourism board or anything.

So you can be very honest with me, but Al Grego went to Regina and he sat down with Ashley Donald, the owner of Basket Cases. This is a prominent gift basket store in Regina. And Ashley shared her inspiring journey of buying and running the business, discussing her origins or struggles and her future outlook. So this fantastic episode of Yes We Are Open is part of season eight, and it's available now.

Okay. Last- I'm going to listen to that. You're gonna listen to that. Last but not least, do you enjoy driving a clean automobile, a clean car? Yes. It's a pain in the ass, right?

So if cleaning is a hassle, well, you're making it a hassle, Michael. The people at Silver Wax are gonna help you out. They make pro-grade auto care and cleaning technology easy for everyone to use. They got kits for beginners, experts or professionals. Everything you need you go to silverwax.ca use the promo code TRONOMYK10. TRONOMYK10 that saves you 10% but you don't actually have to do that right now because I am giving you Mr. Culture Reject a robust

kit for cleaning the interior and exterior of your car. That huge bucket, what? Plus the two spray bottles. I'm telling you, effortless cleaning of the car. It's gonna be spotless. You're gonna love driving it and that's yours to take home. Wow, that's super generous. Better than a Juno, right? Yeah, I mean, when it's gleaming, I'll think of you. That's what I want to hear. So now I want to hear that the Coles Notes, and I'm glad you said Coles Notes,

because some people say Cliffs Notes. Cliffs Notes, that's the American copy of the Coles Notes. The Coles Notes came first, and then an American company copied that idea, and I think they licensed it, so they didn't steal it, but they called it Cliffs Notes so whenever I hear Cliffs Notes I know it's an American and when I hear Cole's notes I know it's a Canadian you're a Canadian please tell me what's happened since Inside the Cinema okay well since Inside the Cinema I just started I started touring I was like oh I think I'm I think I'm gonna be a touring musician and at that time

too you know like I was selling a lot of records on Apple Music when Apple Music was a place where you had to pay for music not a streaming site. 99 maybe that was American 99 cents. Yeah it was 99 cents per song and actually to be honest that actually was really great I made I was making money I thought this is gonna be amazing. So I was just really loving life. I was touring a lot in the States and in Europe and throughout Canada. And then I got picked up by a very small and loving French label out of Metz, France, just along the German border, called Specific Recordings. And they were like, you know,

we would really love to release your music we're only gonna release music on vinyl but we would love it if you if we could release if you could be on our label I was like absolutely I would love to do that so I'm still with them and I've been going back to I go back to France quite a bit at least every other year and so I put it a couple of records on vinyl through them you can find them at culture reject dotca or blah, blah, blah on all the things. And, um, it, hmm. Uh, and, and since then also I moved out of Toronto,

I moved out of that college house. I think I mentioned that we were rent evicted from that. We could talk about that. They just jacked up the rent where you couldn't afford it anymore. Well, no, it's a, it's a little thing that, uh, that landlords learned how to do, um, where, which couldn't afford it anymore? Well, no, it's a little thing that landlords learned how to do, which is, I'm not making a blanket, all landlords are bad, but it was a thing where if you just wanted to get rid of people,

they were trying to sell the building, or they were buying the building actually, and so as they bought it, they said, you know, we're gonna be doing enough renovations that you have to move. And so there's this idea that that's the rental part of run evicted the second part is that you would have to you but you can return that's that's the law like you know once the renovation once the renovation is done

you can be returned and we knew this was never gonna happen so it was a developer's that always got rid of the people that were living there because you know our rent honestly like I think I can do the numbers. Can I do the numbers quick? Yeah. $1,200 a month. College Street, three bedroom. How long ago? This was in 2014 was the day. So we weren't and they did the work. They moved new people in and the rent went up to $4,300. I read about this in the Toronto Star. Yeah, that was us. Right, because I remember taking note when Carolyn Taylor was coming over.

Exactly, and Carolyn and I and Aurora and we were all fighting that together. Yeah. What? Wild. There's a lot of full circle business happening here. Well, if I may, you got fucked. Yeah, yeah, we totally.

But to be honest, there's so many more people who got way more fucked who had who had way less Resources than we had to fight it and way less privilege frankly, you know It was much different than than a lot of race still you still got fucked Yeah, so yeah for the three-bedroom in that location, which is fantastic 1200 yeah, and we were like, okay more. Yeah, we're like we'd pay more. We know we're getting a good deal We'll pay more and they're like no you there's no way you're gonna pay what we can get for it. So, yeah.

It's like they almost quadrupled that rent or whatever. Yeah, yeah, they did, they more than quadrupled it. It was 4,300. So between marriages. Oh, sorry, you're right, no, it was more, it was less than quadrupled. Yeah, but still, you know, my math skills are okay, but you know, none of the math is.

I have the mind made up, this beer is great. Between marriages, so I had a marriage and then there's a matrimonial home Which I could only afford because I bought it in the 90s Yeah, and then left that home and then I rented for a couple years before I bought this place with my wife Monica and About yeah 1250 for a two-bedroom, but not like we're talking like Eglinton and Martin Grove like we're nowhere near College Street in that cool hood here.

Right. And I felt like that was a pretty sweet deal. But of course, I'm nowhere near the downtown or that neck of the woods. But now I don't I don't know how people live in this city anymore. Like, I don't even know you're living in the city. I know. So this is the other thing was when we just finally saw the writing on the wall and we were still fighting it. But we're like, so we managed to move. We moved up to Meaford, Ontario. OK, that's like 20. That's way up there.

Over two hours on Georgian Bay. Right. Yeah, we're right on Georgia Bay. Like I have not looked back like that was that was a fantastic. Are you going there after this? Yeah. OK, but you were downtown for another purpose. That's why we get so coming back now. I was going to please don't tell me you came from Meaford for this.

Cause I would have done it at a different time, but we, we, you were already downtown. I was already downtown. Yeah. Or west of downtown. Dude, that's a long way from Toronto. So what's it like in Meaford? It's, it's beautiful. Meaford is a gorgeous place.

Like it's, it's, it's beautiful in the winter. I mean, I love winter. And so you get full on winter there, like winter, it's a in the winter. I mean I love winter and so you get full on winter there like winter It's a punishing snow belt, but I but again, I love snow in there today. It could be like Cold here. Yeah, and I you know, I'd say between like zero and five degrees or whatever and I'll bet you you got snow up In me for it's it's very very possible. It's not on. It's not impossible for sure. But artists like yourself and they were, you know, I guess, you know, because we're

similar vintage, but there was a time when the artists like yourself could afford to live like you did in Toronto and make art and you got, you know, and now just building that. I just think of that building alone. And if, you know, if artists can afford to live places, the art can happen.

People can make a Baroness von Sketch. They all, they all said, if we did not have that apartment, we never would have been able to just spend time making this, you know? Yeah. But in moving to Meaford, it was a great choice. I love where I live and I think it's allowed me

to actually be even more creative in a lot of ways, just to have that kind of space, but it's also, I've been lucky to sort of get exciting work in things that I do and so what do you do other than culture reject what else you got going on so I'm an well for a long a lot of years I did film carpentry so I picked up some films some some carpentry skills and I use that every once in a while and but for the most part I'm what's called an artist facilitator. So I use arts, primarily music, to go into different kind of either,

primarily classrooms, I do a lot of classroom work. So for instance, I just was in Toronto today, working with a group of, working with about four different classes, grades fives and sixes, and we're doing, we're focusing on social change and songwriting, So, you know, so much of what you do reminds me of Rob Pruess, who I mentioned earlier,

who's working on national slash because him and his wife and they're in, they're in New York, they're in Queens, but that's what they do. They, they part of what they do is they go into, they work with students in classes and about doing music and et cetera. So very similar. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Good for you. Now before we say goodbye, anything else on your mind? Because the way I want to close is I just want us together and you can talk over it or just listen, but we're gonna listen to the whole thing together. Okay. Okay. So again, it does have that opening and

closing from the video, which is not necessarily part of the song, but we've now established that. So this will be three minutes and 43 seconds, the entirety of Inside the Cinema, a song that I've been kind of, I've been totally digging for 17 years, and now I've had the pleasure of meeting the man behind Culture Reject. This is a big deal for me. I can't wait to take a photo with you by Toronto Tree. So any final thoughts before we listen together? Thanks for just highlighting the song. It was a huge vehicle for me and to, yeah, to live the life that I have.

And it reminds me of all the people that I want to celebrate and who I do celebrate who were part of my come up. Okay, here we go, Michael, you ready? Yeah, together. Here we go. The in its entirety inside the cinema by culture reject. Yeah, I've got the perfect place beside you I search inside your purse I fund my ideas you watch and I'll put on some airs I watch to make sure that you stare down low inside the cinema Come culture reject, expect, respect You protect what is good, yeah we know what is good Yeah we know what is good I won't judge, but what's the effect When we move away from it?

I'll purge what's inside my chest I made a little shout out to, like, once I learned... It's a lot when you commit yourself to a celebrity in a song. So when I say, I love that Bill Murray man, which I always did. And Gina Davis came out and said, well, he's kind of a prick. And so in concert I've been singing, I'm a Gina Davis fan. Ah! That's great. Oh man, do they love this song in New York or what? I had some fun with it in Brooklyn and Manhattan. Yeah, yeah. I wanna get home, I wanna get stoned Make myself food, make myself good

Make myself good, make myself good I wanna get home, I wanna get stoned Make myself food, make myself good Make myself food, make myself good Make myself good, make myself good Make myself Come culture reject Expect, respect You project what is good Yeah we know what is good

Come, come, come culture reject Full respect Do do not pretend to love You will just get depressed And that brings us to the end of our 1676th show. Go to torontomike.com for all your Toronto Mike needs. Much love to all who made this possible. Again, that's Great Lakes Brewery, Palma Pasta, Monaris, Silver Wax, RecycleMyElectronics.ca, Building Toronto Skyline, and Ridley funeral home. See you all Monday when I'm talking with Jack Mesley, an iron worker who helped build the

CN Tower 50 years ago. We'll go back in time 50 years. See you all then. All then!