Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - David Rider: Toronto Mike'd #596

Episode Date: March 13, 2020

Mike chats with The Toronto Star's city hall bureau chief David Rider about COVID-19, his career, the Toronto Star and how I know his brother-in-law.

Welcome to episode 596 of Toronto Mic'd, a weekly podcast about anything and everything. Proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, a fiercely independent craft brewery who believes in supporting communities, good times and brewing amazing beer. Palma Pasta, enjoy the taste of fresh homemade italian pasta and entrees from palma pasta in mississauga and oakville sticker you.com create custom stickers labels tattoos and decals for your home and your business the kaitner group they love helping buyers find their dream home. Text TORONTOMIKE, one word, to 59559. And Banjo Dunk from Whiskey Jack, one of the most celebrated roots, country, bluegrass bands in Canadian music history. I'm Mike from torontomike.com,

and joining me this week is Toronto Star City city hall bureau chief david rider hey there welcome david thank you i had a song for us here let me get this going here i would be shocked if you could name this tune but um i thought you were going to play riders on the storm but that's what i was singing to you earlier. This sounds like Joy Division. This is Joy Division. Yeah. I love Joy Division, my favorite band,

but I'm, because I'm on radio, I'm blanking and I'm forgetting. It's not transmission. No, this is a isolation. Isolation. So is that your favorite band?

Yeah. See, I have no idea. That's a coincidence. That's a super coincidence. Nobody told me that. Honestly, I'm blowing away right now because I chose,

randomly chose. I'm going to go off the mic. I don't know if I can bring it, but my, well, just go off the mic and me that. Honestly, I'm blown away right now because I chose, randomly chose. I'm going to go off the mic. I don't know if I can bring it, but I'll just tell you. Okay, go off the mic and do that, and I'll tell everyone. I'm just going to tell you my phone. Now I won't be able to do it. There's a face in the background of my phone, and it's Ian Curtis. That's my lock screen. That's unbelievable.

He's the lead late singer of Joy Division. Do you realize how unbelievable that is? It is greatly unbelievable. The lead late singer of Joy Division. Do you realize how unbelievable that is? It is crazy unbelievable. I actually feel like I can't sing, but I feel like I should do live transmission or something. See, I played isolation. I was thinking of like pandemic music. Wow, that is perfect.

Yeah. And Joy Division, we're pretty bleak. So that fits the times. Maybe, hopefully we'll transition in new order. That's a little poppier, a little more exciting, a little happier times. Okay, before we even proceed in new order. That's a little poppier, a little more exciting, a little happier. Okay. Before we even proceed with this most excellent podcast,

we have to take a moment and say, I randomly chose a song. I chose a song by Joy Division called Isolation because I was thinking about self-isolation and the pandemic, which we're going to talk about COVID-19. And then when you come on and I play it for you, and it's just a coincidence you're the guest that got that because I just thought last night, what's a pandemic song? You tell me the background of your smartphone is a picture of Ian Curtis, lead singer of Joy Division,

and that's your favorite band of all time. Yeah, it is. And yeah, as a kid growing up in Etobicoke, not that far from here, I got into kind of punk and new wave in high school and first got into New Order and then realized, oh, this came from the ashes of another band, Joy Division. And fortunately, Ian Curtis was already gone at that point.

But then I heard Level Terrace Apart and my life was changed forever. I still, I love every song and every note they've ever done. I've had the Gary's on this show. Do you know the Gary's? I do. But they were on separately. But we talked about how of course uh they had booked joy division to play the edge oh i didn't know and it was booked and tickets were sold and everything and because they were i believe is the eve of the first north american tour which he took his own life in his

kitchen on the eve of the north american tour. I'm sure they would have been blown open worldwide, but yeah, yeah. Sad, but still just love listening to that band. It always makes me happy, even though a lot of it is kind of dirge like, but. I can tell you,

I, when I, what the music that would make me happy would be, for example, Alice in Chains, and it would plod along kind of moody. I would say you called it, what was the word you just used?

Dirge. Dirge like. Yeah, it was like that along kind of moody, I would say. You called it, what was the word you just used? Dirge. Dirge-like. Yeah, it was like that. But for some reason, like the plodding sadness of it all cheered me up. There's a beauty in it. And I don't know. I mean, I think that's part of the joy of life. If you don't have the lows, you don't have the highs.

And yeah, there'll be the saddest kind of Joy Division or other song. And there's something that will touch your heart and make you feel joy. Kurt Cobain sang, I miss the comfort in being sad, I think. Yeah, I know Joy Division better than Nirvana. I love Nirvana, but I would, yeah. David, I can't even proceed with this episode because of that coincidence. I'm messed up here.

It's also Friday the 13th. Yeah, it is. And it's windy outside. Yeah. Are you superstitious? No, not at all. Neither am I. Okay.

So we're both doomed, I think. Did you walk here? I drove. Yeah. Oh, you drove. Yeah. You didn't, because the winds were pretty, because I'm about to take a bike ride and I think the gust were are pretty because i'm about to take a bike ride and i think the gusts are pretty pretty strong just walking from where i parked to your house

it's extremely gusty it feels foreboding i always think of um around halloween sometimes you get those days where the wind is like swirling up in the trees and you kind of feel like witches are flying around it feels like that kind of weather strange times now uh love will tear us apart of course great joy division song but uh covid19 will tear us apart is not as fun as i i i'm i hope it doesn't i don't think it will i think we'll all survive it but man like i mean i've been a reporter for this is my 30th year as a journalist and i've covered all kinds of stuff and i've never seen anything as global or as dire as what we're looking at right now the word i keep hearing and it's probably appropriate is uh unprecedented we're in the uncharted waters here well even just

i mean from globally but even just on the on the micro level like my kids were asking about okay so we get this extra time off school does that mean we have to go to summer school and i said you know what nobody knows like we've never been through this before the school even doesn't know so nobody knows but we'll just have to kind of go with it enjoy your time off and we'll see okay we're gonna revisit covid19 uh particularly from a toronto perspective shortly and you and i will reassure everybody uh they need us right now david they need sure we're gonna get through it we'll be We'll be fine. We're going to make it all together.

I always say we're all in this together. That's the one kind of, I don't want to say a night. I guess we can find a silver lining. It's not like this is a David thing or whatever, or your family's going through this, or even your block. We're all in this together. Well, you know, and I'd argue you're Toronto Mike. You're all about this city. Well, you know, and I'd argue, you know, you're Toronto, Mike. You're all about this city.

And compared to a lot of places, I think Toronto is well positioned to survive it. Because, you know, I was just visiting a friend not that long ago in Florida. It lives in a gated community. It's kind of like, you know, the feeling of the place is every person for themselves. Toronto's not like that generally. It's like all pulled together. We're all going to enjoy the Raptors together, but we're all going to suffer through SARS together and we're going to help each other so I think I think of all the places I think we're in a as good a spot as you could be and you just said the s-word and before this particular pandemic uh I would often you know tell my wife

and kids that uh should you know should something like SARS return or something like that I said the city the world the city in the world that's probably best equipped and best prepared to handle this is Toronto because of SARS. Totally. The officials have said that many times. I'm better prepared to cover it

because I covered SARS day in and day out. I went to those meetings. I went to the hospitals. I'm kind of having serious flashbacks the last little while. But of course, this is bigger in its own way. It's global. Oh, it's definitely different.

But at least we have that perspective. It's sort of like when a Daniel Dale, for example, covers Rob Ford. Yes. And now he's prepared to cover a Donald Trump. I've had that conversation with many people. And yeah, Daniel also came into my bureau. He started as a political reporter working with me covering Rob Ford. Yeah. And people said to me, like, wow, I can't believe Daniel got so huge in the States. And I said, I actually totally can

believe it because he went down there. He covered Obama at first. And I think he, you know, I talked to him. I think he had a little bit of trouble finding his legs because like everybody's covering Obama. How do you get a thing? And then Trump came in and all of a sudden they had like a big oversized oh you know huge personality blowhard who lies a lot and most of the american media were like uh we don't know and daniel was like i got this right just like went in there and said he's lying about this he's doing this he's doing that and because of the normal deference to a president all the others were kind of slimy but we went through that with with the mayor we were like when rob ford first started things that weren't true or sort of doing strange things i mean we had to figure out how to cover him and and all that stuff so yeah

daniel totally had uh an advantage and a bit of a a bit of an unfair edge on his american counterparts like i think you'll agree with me and now we're about to find out actually but i uh would say uh rob ford is to donald trump as sars is to covid 19 oh man that's okay yeah maybe you can you can write about that and just give me credit for the okay i'll write about that i'll just say that uh because people have said to me and to daniel i know like oh like donald trump is rob Ford. And he's very careful. And I think I would say, no, they're completely different people,

but there are sort of shocking similarities and people, because they actually met, people may not forget that Donald Trump came to Toronto to open a condo with his name on it. It wasn't really his condo, but it had his name on it and met Rob and Doug Ford. And so people have said, Oh,

maybe he learned something. Maybe he did. But I always think with with the the main similarity i'd see between the two of them is i think and what people are learning is in politics the ability to lie without shame to not feel bad or feel like you have to go and sort of like come up with an excuse or apologize press to the wall just to say no that's the way it is right is a huge political weapon and a huge advantage. And yeah, so there are shocking similarities, I think.

What was the, like when you learned Daniel Dale was leaving the Toronto Star for CNN? Yeah, I was bummed. I was completely bummed. Although to be honest, like he had become such a journalism celebrity in the States. I'm kind of amazed we kept him as long as we did so is it because of green like the the money is so much uh bigger is it just having the platform

to more people yeah it's a massive i think it's a massive platform i have no idea i'm what don't what daniel gets paid i'm sure he's paid well but it's a massive massive platform i mean you know uh sometimes i go to the gym and I look up and I say, oh, there's Daniel on CNN again, you know, and that's a guy who sat like three feet away from me and sort of says, how does city council work? So that's, it's a bit weird, but it's great. I couldn't be happier for him. It's, he is honestly, people watch and say, oh, he seems like such a nice guy. And he's like so cool and down to earth. He is absolutely all of those things. down to earth he is absolutely all of those things and ed keenan who is uh an fotm and you are probably already an fotm because we've had already such a good conversation but that's a friend of

toronto mike oh great so you're in the club and a great fotm i'm gonna get in a moment i'm gonna tell everybody how we're connected in an interesting way okay i'm gonna say that for just a moment except to say ed keenan who's he's been on the show he kicked out the jams it was fantastic he's been on a few times actually great uh how's he doing like i mean i i see his tweets and i read his work but uh like ed's uh filling in nicely for daniel yeah it's doing great i mean i think it's uh how you cover something as crazy as trump is a real trick and daniel's thing is he's a fact checker and that's kind of the way he's done it. So because there are lots of people who want to stand on the White House lawn and kind of give the report and say, Donald Trump said this, some of it's true. So Ed is a columnist. And I think it made sense at first when he went down, I was like, oh,

because I thought it was going to be somebody else going as a fact checker reporter. But I think Ed can bring a Canadian lens to the American kind of madness that is politics right now. And I think he's doing a great job. And it's not an easy job. I mean, he's essentially, it's a weird, I think, thing because the Toronto Star, I don't believe, is accredited to go cover White House events. So we're not actually in a lot of those big press conferences. So you're watching it from a bit of a far, but in a way that's an advantage because it kind of forces you to go out and talk to regular people you're not in that sort of trump bubble um you actually have to go to small towns where he's having rallies and like interview people and see

what they think about this guy that's a that's a good point here okay so Okay, so your brother-in-law. Yes. Because this week on Toronto Week is Brother-in-Law Weeks. Is it? Sorry.

Is Brother-in-Law Week because my last guest was Craig Lauzon. Yep. It's the next brother-in-law, but I don't know. Once you're a brother-in-law, if there's a divorce, you're still a brother-in-law, right? It's a bond of some kind Lauzon. Yep. It's an ex-brother-in-law, but I don't know. Once you're a brother-in-law, if there's a divorce, you're still a brother-in-law, right? It's a bond of some sort. Right.

Yep. Lawrence Nichols. He calls him Larry Money, but Lawrence is from Lowest of the Low. Oh, okay. One of my favorite bands of all time. Wow. I know. And your brother-in-law is an FOTM, and he painted this studio.

Did he? Chris Brown. Chris Brown. Chrisbrownpainting.com. The good Chris Brown. Yeah, I know. And he's a great guy. He's a fantastic guy. I've been so lucky with my in-laws. I know everybody it's like the old, you know, my in-laws are terrible joke. I've got both sides of my family and Chris is a fantastic

guy. Like I was at, I think, I don't know when it was, a couple months ago, I'm at Cafe Diplomatico, very close to where Chris lives, and we were having Peroni? What's the name of the Italian beer? Peroni, right? I think so. Okay, because, well, they didn't have Great Lakes beer at Cafe Diplomatico. They should. I should go talk to them.

I have Great Lakes beer for you, by the way. That six-pack is going home with you today. Whoa! Fresh craft beer from GLB. Normally, I get nothing for these things. You're getting so much. I'm going to give you more in a moment. But you take home that Great Lakes beer.

I was having Peronis with Chris Brown. Yeah. And just in passing, he mentioned, I think he just mentioned that his brother-in-law wrote for the Star. And I'm like, oh, who's your brother-in-law wrote for the star and I'm like oh who's your brother-in-law he said David Ryder I follow that I follow that effort on Twitter

that's great yeah yeah he married my sister Sheila Ryder so he's super lucky and yeah no Chris is a great guy and yeah it's a cool coincidence now you're playing Beastie Boys which is one of my other favorite okay so I asked Chris.

He did not mention anything about Joy Division, which is why that coincidence blew my mind. But I said to Chris, I said, like, what's his favorite band? I was going to play a song from like your – I would have played Joy Division on purpose if I knew about it. But it's wild how it worked out. But he said Beastie Boys. Beastie Boys, I love.

Beastie Boys, yeah. And I also love Public Enemy. And you, Chuck D, when you asked me, I was like And I also love Public Enemy and you, Chuck D. When you asked me, I was like, oh, I'm following the footsteps of Chuck D. This is like big. It is. And Chuck D, for a reason I don't know, like maybe two years ago, started following me on Twitter. And honestly, like I told everybody.

Everybody was like, enough about Chuck D. I was like, no, he's fine, man. They're like, maybe it's just a service. Maybe he doesn't even know. And I was like, no, I think you're really into it. It's all him. He's really into Toronto politics and he's five minutes they're like maybe it's just a service maybe he doesn't even know and i was like no it's all him into it it's all him he's really into toronto politics and he's really into me i he the reason they all came together is uh he started following me i'm a lifelong fan like forever i just tweeted a picture of my cassette deck my cassette case uh that i had from like i don't know when that was uh early to mid 90s i guess i had it and it had a whole bunch of stuff in it but i saw i had two copies of fear of a black planet and i got back a backup i guess

why anyway i love public enemy but uh he was following me on twitter i think he does his own tweets but he's very active and he's very yeah and i just tweeted at him and said hey i knew he was coming to the beer fest right at the cne there and i I said, Hey, I'm Toronto Mike. And I talked to interesting people and I dropped a few names. He'd know, like I dropped Maestro Fresh West. Yes. And I dropped Mishimi. Yeah.

I just said, okay, these are people, you know, who have been on the show, like to, you know, to comment.

And then he, he basically said, Hey, set it up with this person. And I got to interview Chuck D and now I get to interview Chris Brown's brother. Well, it's all downhill. But yeah, no, I just think

Public Enemy are amazing and Chuck D is, to me, he's just like, he's a god. Like he's so smart and he's such a leader and he's such a calm, rational voice in all these crazy times. I love Sabotage.

I don't know what your favorite, Public Enemy is great. I don't, Public Enemy is my favorite, one of my favorite bands of all time. What is your favorite Beastie Boys album? Check Your Head, I think. That's my favorite. Well, you saw the sticker.

Oh, yeah, yeah. Okay, so the sticker you sticker that you see so that you don't hit your head on this thing. When you leave, you'll see it again. It's just, it says Check Your Head. Oh, all right, all right. Yeah, that's because you have

a very low ceiling basement. People don't know. It's like two feet tall in here. I'm almost lying down. Yeah, it's hard to get a very low ceiling basement. People don't know. It's like two feet tall in here. I'm almost lying down. Yeah, it's hard to get a five foot nine guy like you in here. That's how bad it is. And I'm the same height, so I can say that it's difficult. But I think, yeah, my favorite is Check Your Head as well.

Yeah, but I mean, you know, Paul's Boutique is like, and it's funny because I don't know if you read their book or listened to the audio version of it. They're almost still kind of mad that that album didn't take off and that it didn't get the promotion. And I'm like, you should just enjoy it. It's a classic. That was a long time ago.

As time went on, Paul's Boutique became... Because as I recall, Hey Ladies was all over the place because it was like the follow-up. The first single from the follow-up was a big license to ill. And it was a big deal. there was this lack of singles after that but if you guys like us who did listen to paul's boutique the sampling and stuff was like it's like we already loved the public enemy stuff from the bomb squad yeah amazing amazing okay so i love the beastie boys glad to have you here uh in your bio on twitter it says you have the calves of a 15-year-old.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Is that good or bad? Like, do 15-year-olds have good calves? I think they do. I honestly have no idea what it means. So when I joined Twitter, so I became City Hall Bureau Chief in February 2010, so just a couple of months before Rob Ford launched his mayoral campaign. And, you know, I'd heard about Twitter.

I knew of it, but I was like, oh, I'm already busy with this new big job. Like, I don't have time about Twitter. I knew of it, but I was like, oh, I'm already busy with this new big job. Like, I don't have time for Twitter. And then pretty quickly I realized, like, a lot of Toronto politics is discussed on Twitter. Like, city councillors make announcements and stuff. So, okay, I've got to get on it. But I honestly, I thought it was this weird niche thing. I thought it was probably not going to last. And I spent three seconds thinking about what I would put for my thing.

And I take journalism seriously, but I never take myself seriously. I never take life too seriously so i just thought well i kind of have absurd sense of humor so i'll just throw this in and i'll change it at some point and then but people kind of like it and i've had like you're probably the 30th person who's mentioned to me when they meet me and uh i was at an award ceremony and a couple of other journalists demanded to see them so I had to pull up my pant leg and everybody's looking around and I had to flex

but I will tell you I did okay because I go to the gym and I always do an extra 10 calf raises and I always say Twitter 10 and I do extra just because I know at some point I might have to show up yeah I've made them famous I was going to ask if you were a cyclist I am yeah

I hate running but I love cycling Oh, and I want to see your couch. Yeah, I've made them famous. I was going to ask if you were a cyclist. I am, yeah. I hate running, but I love cycling. I'm the same here. Yeah. I don't know why people run. It's crazy. Just get on a bike. You'll get there faster and it's more fun.

But in 2007, I decided I would become a marathon guy. Oh, yeah, yeah. There's a lot of them. Everybody's running marathons. I haven't. I was training for a half marathon and I hurt myself and I stopped running altogether and i just cycle now oh okay yeah see it makes no more running i just remember when i run from the time i kid it's like i'll go like a little bit and then i feel like like something's hurting inside like my liver or something i

mentioned i worked at cbc for a while i mentioned that and a woman said um david have you considered a sports bra but uh a bro Which I thought was hilarious and rude. But yeah, no, I would just always rather. I love biking. I drive, I bike, and I walk, and I take the TTC. So I try and cover all the transit options, but I don't walk or I don't run. I never run to work,

although I sometimes get to walk to work. Peter Gross, when he was working at City TV, he used to rollerblade to work uh peter gross when he was working at city tv he used to roller blade to work oh every day that's awesome my uh on a tangent that's not really related my mother who's now 89 almost 90 when she was 70 she took up rollerblading in etobicoke where i grew up and she would uh her basset hound digby would pull her on rollerblades around the neighborhood she was 70 years old is this south etobicoke i grew up around bluer and west mall it's a little street called jeff drive which is between bluer and dundas and a little bit west or a little bit east rather of neighborhood called marklin woods okay how far

are we from cloverdale mall very close cloverdale was just like a 15 minute walk or something i have a text i could show you from my wife this morning saying uh when you're done your episode of toronto mic'd could you bike to the home hardware in cloverdale mall and she wanted me to buy uh a couple of these uh very popular hand sanitizers so she could have them at my four-year-old's birthday party tomorrow and this is like so i'm going to cloverdale mall right after uh yeah no i i mean i grew up i i i live more down i live in the east end of downtown, kind of a less evil area now. But I had a great time growing up in Tobacco. It was, I had Apache Burger and Milano's Pizza and Sherway Gardens. I'm old enough that I went to Sherway Gardens when the day opened, I think 1973 or something like that.

So what high school did you go to? Silverthorne Collegiate. Okay. Yeah, which is right on the edge of, it's almost in Mississauga. Right. Okay. Yeah, which is right on the edge of, it's almost in Mississauga. Right. Okay. Yeah, because what is the border? Oh, I do know the border.

Don't even tell me. Mimico Creek, right? Etobicoke Creek. Etobicoke Creek. Yeah, yeah. Because that runs through Marie Curtis. Right. So I was really, when there was the big Mississauga train derailment,

we were so mad because the evacuation zone went right up to the creek and my high school was literally like 10 feet on the other side. We were like, just move it a little bit more but we still had to go to school okay i did talk about the sticker you uh check your head sticker so let me just take an opportunity to give you a toronto mic thank you there's so much swag i can't believe this well there is more very exciting swag coming but first i want to just let everybody know and yourself as well because you're you're from etobicoke yeah now you're in leslieville yeah if you have any toronto real estate questions anything at all if you want a free home evaluation anything at all you need to have at least a conversation with austin keitner from the keitner group they've partnered with toronto mike to fuel the real talk the way to engage Austin, and it really helps the show. So if you're an FOTM and

a fan of what you're hearing now, this was really helpful. So text Toronto Mike, that's one word, Toronto Mike, to 59559, 59559, and engage Austin. He's a great guy. He's a very smart guy and easy to talk to, and it helps the show so do that you got your sticker you sticker you go to sticker you.com to get like decals and stickers you could have like a david rider stickers everywhere you could go everybody's gonna want one everybody should get one there's a lot of reporters they're so exciting there's a storefront now actually at on queen street like 677 Queen is near Bathurst, where you can go in and see a sticker museum.

And it's really cool. It's a free museum. You can check out and buy stickers there. But stickeru.com. Let me see. Swag. Here's what I want to give you. I have,

this is an empty box for the cameras, but in my freezer upstairs, David, are you ready? Yeah. A frozen meat lasagna from Palma Pasta. Honestly, it would be the best lasagna you can buy. And I get to take it home? You get to take that home. Whoa.

And how many kids you got? I got two kids. What kind of age are we talking here? My daughter Tess is 11 and my son Ben is 14. There'll be leftovers and they're going to love it. I have a 14-year-old boy. There will be no leftovers. You'll see.

I have an 18-year-old, a 15-year-old, an almost 6-year-old, I have a 14-year-old boy. There will be no leftovers. You'll see. I have an 18-year-old, a 15-year-old, an almost 6-year-old, and an almost 4-year-old, and we have leftovers. Wow. Look at the size of that box. Yeah, that is a big box,

but I will say my son, he's growing like crazy. He's just almost as tall as me, just turned 14, and he's at that point of eating where he sort of grazes, and I'll make a sandwich, I'll turn around and talk to my wife, I'll turn around and he's eating it, and I of eating where he sort of grazes and like i'll make a sandwich i'll turn around talking my wife i'll turn around and he's eating it and i'll be like

ben what are you doing and he'll be like what like he doesn't know and i'll say you're eating my lunch you know say oh and he looks at it like where did that come from ben's gonna love his lasagna he's gonna go crazy you gotta cook it up i think it's 45 minutes at 375 or something like that and it's amazing it's delicious so you're taking that home with you so that's perfect and i should have brought a bigger car i don't know where i amazing. It's delicious. So you're taking that home with you. So that's perfect. I should have bought a bigger car. I don't know where I'm going to put all this stuff. Oh, you're going to have to rent something. You're going to have to rent a U-Haul van

or something like that. This is something I want to thank. Great FOTM, Ken Daniels. Do you know the name Ken Daniels by any chance? Well, I know a Daniels who's involved in real estate, like development. No. Okay.

So are you at all a sports fan? Moderately. I grew up not really paying too much attention to sports i'm now a raptors fan because of my son so i've learned more but i would say i'm not i'm not a huge sports guy okay ken daniels was a he used to call hockey games for i think for hockey dining canada and he has a personality on like the fan back in the day but he's now now we don't see him as much because now he's the uh radio voice of the detroit red wings oh wow that's a good gig but he listens to podcasts he loves yeah he's got a great gig i mean they even won a stanley cup i was telling have you like that if he had stayed here he couldn't be covering any leaf stanley cup right uh he knows because he listens to the show that

i like like retro blue jays music and stuff. And he had in his collection, he shipped me his, his 45 single of okay Blue Jays. I'm just trying to wrap my head around retro Blue Jays music. Yeah. This is a big thing from the, uh, late eighties, early nineties where like for variety village, these compilation cassettes would come out and they would like local radio personalities would put together like Blue Jay novelty songs. Like this was a big deal. You might have one from,

not Brother Jake. Who was it? There might be one from Brother Jake Edwards or there'll be, like Aaron Davis will do one. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

There's a whole bunch of these things. So, OK Blue Jays. This is from Ken Daniels. Thank you, Ken. And I'm holding it up to the camera here. This one I didn't even know.

Toronto Sun apparently put out a 45 called The Whole Town's Talking About the Bruges. I used to work at the Sun many years ago, but I did not know that they put out music. I don't recall that at all. 1986. Okay, that was before my time. Before your time. We're going to get into your career in a moment. Yeah, sure.

And here's, I really like this one. So you remember the song Talking Baseball? Yes, I thought I even remember that. Well, the guy who sang that, Cashman, he, Terry Cashman, he recorded a version called Talkin' Baseball, 10 Years with the Jays. This was for the 1986 season. And he changed all the lyrics to talk about the 86 Jays. And I got the 45 single right here. Wow.

So I want to just say thank you to Ken. Yeah, that's fantastic. And I'll just say that, although I'm not a huge sports fan, when I was crushed, when the Jays won the two series, I was not in Toronto. I was living in Manitoba. When you graduate from journalism school, often you have to go where the jobs are. And I went to Brandon, Manitoba for my first job and then Winnipeg. So so both times i was like oh i saw the big parades my friends were phoning me and saying like oh it's crazy on the streets and i was like oh so then years later when i was living in japan from 98 to 2000 the leafs had a pretty good run and i remember saying to my wife like oh if they actually get any farther in the series i think i have to go home and she was like what you're not like a what

that's crazy and i was saying no i grew up in toronto you understand if there's a chance the if they actually get any farther in the series, I think I have to go home. And she was like, what? You're not like a what? That's crazy. And I was saying, no, I grew up in Toronto. You understand. If there's a chance the Leafs are going to win a cup, I have to go home from Japan or I go home from Australia, go anywhere in the world. Because you grew up in the city.

You suffered through the Harold Ballard years and everything else. Even if you're not like a huge, huge fan, if they win the cup, then you got to be there. Lucky for you, they didn't even make the finals. Didn't even even make the fun as i recall that i remember that pacquian era there and there was two conference finals in that era and that's the uh sundine roberts i think you got some mcgillney in there and kujo oh bell bell no kujo kujo was definitely a bell for us i was a mild fan of kujo i thought like uh you know that whole shtick I thought it was great yeah I know

it's a conference final we haven't won a playoff series since 2004 which I'm trying to maybe even that was probably coached by Pat Quinn I look back at that late great Pat Quinn okay let's revisit COVID-19

and then talk about your career sure since this is a but late, great Pat Quinn. Okay. Let's revisit COVID-19. Yeah. And then talk about your career. Sure. Since this is a unique time in, you know, our city's history, the world's history. Yeah. Like what, I know you filed a piece, like, I don't know, did you write that on your drive?

Like you filed a piece just for the star just before, but can you give us the latest, like, what do you know about how Toronto is dealing with COVID-19? What's new? Well, I mean, the story I wrote this morning quickly before I drove over here was the mayor saying that the city is actively considering some kind of restrictions on large gatherings. He didn't go into detail about how they would prevent people from gathering. But yesterday, there was a press conference at which he and a medical officer of health actively encouraged people not to gather, especially if you've recently come back from another country. They also said, you know, don't shake hands. But they fell short of talking about

anything mandatory, which we have seen in some other places. So this morning, he said, we're considering that on an hour to hour basis, we would have to do it at the right time when it has the most impact but he's certainly not ruling out preventing uh groups gathering in in new york state would be an example where they said that um places of gathering like concert halls or broadway broadway theaters where there's 500 or more people cannot operate they have to reduce the capacity or shut altogether. So they've chosen the number 500, where I know France has 100, I think is now the... Yeah, I mean, and I don't know what Italy,

it might be like it's zero. I think it's zero. You literally cannot talk to another person unless you're in the same little house safe zone, which is, yeah. So we'll see where it goes. I mean, I would say how Toronto is doing, I would say we mentioned

earlier that Toronto is is somewhat uniquely positioned because we went through SARS and we have like a pretty robust public health system that was set up around that kind of a threat I mean we did have cuts some cuts to public health this year thanks to the provincial government and I think there has been some cuts to the Public Health Ontario, which oversees it. But I think that money is probably going to be quickly put back now as we see how desperately it's needed. Right, right, right. And I guess in terms of behaviors,

because a lot of people listening are in Toronto, believe it or not. Shockingly enough, on a show called Toronto Mic'd. But like, other than the fact, we're practicing, I guess you call it social distancing is a term I'm reading everywhere. Right.

So I'm going to start using that term. But basically I did, you're the second guest in Toronto Mic'd history who came to the door and I did not shake your hand. And I almost tried to shake yours, which I'm embarrassed about now

because this morning, old habits die hard. This morning I elbow bumped my wife and then I went to shake her hand. So I don't know, that seems offensive to her. But yeah, no, I know my colleague Kate Allen at the Star is our science reporter. She just wrote a story about social distancing,

what it means and why it helps and why it's important. So yeah, obviously it is, but you just think of all the ripple effects that's going to have on society and businesses and people's mental health and riding the streetcar suddenly seems dangerous to some people it's uh it's a it's a completely unprecedented weird new world we're going to be in at least for a while so by making some of these like sensible changes like that so less contact with people unnecessary yeah a little like a little more distance just a bit like no handshakes anymore

by the way i'm in favor of uh getting rid no handshakes. By the way, I'm in favor of getting rid of handshakes permanently. Oh, wow. I don't think we need them. You're a no-touch germphobe kind of guy? No. Oh, okay. You just don't think we need it. I just think it's an unnecessary practice. I've been thinking about this. No, you're right. I guess what's archaic? You're supposed to be showing that you have no

weapons, right? That was the original thing. Is that it? Okay, yeah. So maybe we move on from that. So you're showing you don't have a rapier stuck in your waistband. I'm tired of guys using the handshake as an opportunity to show how big and strong they are well the trump trump's famous for that right he pulls you in and then squeezes it hard i think and then trudeau did some effective block right and i think that was the best thing ever watching the hand stuff yeah yeah you're absolutely right yeah but this all kind of started from uh 18 months And this story is boring to regular listeners, but I'm telling it really quickly again.

But 18 months ago, I had a bike crash in which I had a chip, my pinky, the bone chip in my pinky. And they don't actually do anything for that. Like, it's not like you wear a cast or anything. And they're like, so it's a, but for a long time after that, every handshake hurt like hell. And I started to dread the handshake and there's, it's everywhere. So if you don't shake hands,

but you want to do some kind of formal greeting, what's your preferred fist bump? Okay, I would do fist bump. But I actually am now of the opinion that, and I hope TV hasn't lied to me, because forever, a sitcom trope would be a Japanese businessman would bow.

Okay? Is that really true? Because I saw it in, I think, Seinfeld. I've seen it in lots of different sitcoms. Japanese people do bow. Okay. Is that really true? Cause it's, I saw it and I think Seinfeld, I've seen it in lots of different six. Japanese people do bow. It's a very formal thing. I can do a pretty good Japanese bow, which is like hinge from the waist.

You don't, you don't, you don't bend over like you're picking up something off the floor. You do kind of a more formal stiff sort of thing over it is, but it would be very, it'd be like a first meeting and it would be formal. So when I, I taught at a Japanese high school for a couple of years.

Okay. Okay. And I, when I met the Kyoto sensei Japanese high school for a couple years. Okay, okay. And I, when I met the- Yeah, when I met the Kyoto sensei, the principal, or the Kocho sensei, the vice principal, I did a formal bow from the waist. Yeah, no hand touching. And, but it's, you don't do it with everyday friends.

You don't bow when you first see your best buddy. So can we do, what about like a wink and a nod? And like, you know, the nod. I've been doing the nod forever. Yeah, nod's good. Nod's good. Wink is maybe a little bit like formal and like, like, you know, the nod, I've been doing the nod forever. Like, yeah, nod's good. Nod's good. Wink is maybe a little bit like formal or like, I got a secret or I think you're hot or something. People may take that all kinds of ways,

but, uh, Oh, the breadcrumbs. Yeah. There's gotta be some, there's gotta be something that replaces it. Maybe,

maybe that's the lesson we'll get out of this, that really people shouldn't touch each other unless they're like have to or something. So, okay. So there's that happening. Travel, I guess most sensible people are not traveling right now.

Right, yeah. I mean, I came back, two of my best old friends, George and Vlad from Etobicoke, we just hung out together in Florida. We get together every couple of years and somewhere different. So then I had to like, when I came back,

I had to kind of look up and see what was happening in Collier County and knock on wood so far no cases or or almost nothing to worry about did you drive or fly i flew and i went yeah i went via chicago and i went to be a cleveland so yeah i had to kind of go through all that and look and see and so far i've had no symptoms but it certainly weighs on you and something that i never thought i would and i'm glad we got if we probably scheduled a week or two later, we probably would have had to cancel it. It all escalated very quickly. So quickly. Like things you were doing

on a Wednesday, you would never think of doing on the Friday. Yeah. Well, even, well, I tweeted that I listened to, I listened to The Current on CBC Radio. I didn't catch it in the morning. I heard the repeat at night and it was so outdated. It was crazy. Like people were saying, I don't know, like, could we close close schools is that something that would even be possible i mean well like well

yeah they did that seven hours ago what are you talking about like it's just it seemed to me like i was listening to an archive clip from three years ago but it was actually like 9 a.m that morning it's it's it's wild how quickly the pace of everything is moving and in terms of like the sports world for example it is the one player on the Utah Jazz who tested positive. That's sort of the impetus for the NBA to say, okay, we're shutting this down. I think other leagues too, right?

But then all the other, it's like they all followed suit. Yeah. I always, Rudy Goberic. Yes. If he doesn't test positive, I wonder if we probably had the Leafs versus Predators last night.

I think it was all spilling off. The NBA does that and then everyone falls through. And I heard the Masters just got cancelled. I think everything's down now. I don't even know what. I think everything's gone now. I was wondering if they cancelled horse races. I don't know if that's happened yet but everything's done.

For a while, I mean, certainly'm shut it down i don't remember anything it's and it's funny my son this morning was asking me about like well what was sars like was it like this and i said no i mean in some ways a little bit but it was so isolated and i said i remember the weird thing with stars was you would see like scene enter these headlines like don't go to toronto and then you would but you go on king street and everybody's out like eating it's like i remember it vividly and i can tell you the biggest thing was when a couple of people went to a blue jays game wearing a mask right and that went nuts yeah

think about that though because no one even even there were i don't even remember whispers about how like oh no there weren't there were whispers about maybe we don't play in toronto like there was a little bit of chatter i mean there was a there was a WHO did an advisory not to come to I remember Mel Lassman not lost his mind and said who who is this WHO anyway and all that stuff so that happened but it just seemed like here it was so isolated into certain groups of people who had come back from China or I think another country I can't remember and had sort of had like a like a wedding or something and it was like though anybody those but now you know a lot of them in the states in some places are saying 60 to 70 percent of the and had sort of had like a wedding or something. And it was like, though anybody those, but now, you know, a lot of them in the States and some places are saying 60 to 70% of the population

might get this thing. So it's just so much more widespread and the cautions around it are so much more dire. And from the data we have, it does appear that this is, it seems the kill rate, if you will, I don't know if that's a term or not, as you age, the kill rate spikes up, but it really looks like,

like for example, your kids and my kids, sure they can get it and carry it, but the kill rate's essentially zero for young people. Yeah. Kate has a, I sound like I'm, I'm shilling for the Toronto Star, but Kate has a great story today. You can, by the way, you can do that. I will then. Yeah. And she has a great story today about also about how,

why it is, is, what the research so far says about kids. The original hypothesis was kids can't get it and then they said, oh no, actually they get it but their symptoms are so mild but it's dangerous because they could be transmitting it to older people. To their grandparents who could die from this.

Like old people can die from this. I mean there's so many weird things that we'll have to work through but one of them is like you know there's been a lot of talk about how there's like the boomers are controlling everything and they're sort of making the world terrible and here's the millennials and like and now like the boomer generation is kind of in danger right i mean you talk about okay boomer it might be goodbye boomer like like we just don't know where this thing's gonna go right so i'm one year younger than a boomer, so I think I'm okay. No, I have no idea. Well, I was thinking about some of my clients are in their 60s.

I got to be very careful with the COVID-19 here. So, other than maybe more frequent hand-washing practices and things like that, have you changed anything in your household? Not yet, but we're going to be talking about it. Like, you haven't hoarded any toilet no toilet paper what's that about too is that that people are afraid we're all going to be locked down and they won't be able to get to a store that's my hypothesis no public health official that i've seen anywhere has said go out and get toilet paper uh so it's there's so much misinformation i don't know if it's facebook groups or just talk radio where

i've heard people just sort of spitballing stuff come on we're getting misinformation from the president of the united states and the premier of ontario too right the the health people will tell you don't go to the u.s right now right and then you'll have the premier of ontario will literally say i want ontarians to go enjoy their march break like normal and and right you know and yeah it's well there's a whole communications aspect to it, which, you know, the basic, the best, Joe Cressy, who's the chair of Toronto Public Health,

you know, he tweeted and he told me that there's lots of research on communications during this kind of an emergency. And basically the advantage, what they say is let the public health officials, the experts lead, and then you stand back and then you amplify their message.

Right. But what we've seen with some political leaders is no, they just want to lead with what they think. And that is actually like literally dangerous to people's health. It's bass-ackwards.

Yeah, and I don't understand it. And I'm not going to make this a political discussion except to say that type of behavior seems to predominantly come from the right side of the political spectrum i don't like i just don't see that coming from uh anyway there's my uh yeah my i don't know maybe those voices are in power so you're hearing them more but yeah they're i mean they are in power but like you know but trudeau seems to be uh i seems to be handling it well. I heard him on The Current this morning,

and he sounded very measured and very calm, but concerned and deferred a lot to what the public health official is saying. Because there's a lot of people right now screaming, close the borders, close the borders. And he's saying, well, right now the public health is saying, if we're going to do that, this isn't the right time. As I observed on Twitter, I think a lot of the people who are saying, well, right now the public health is saying that if we're going to do that, this isn't the right time. As I observed on Twitter, I think a lot of the people who are saying, you know, keep the foreigners out because of COVID-19 are like a week ago.

They were just saying, keep the foreigners out. Like, I think there is some of that at play. Right. So at least what I like of what you said there is let the experts lead and then, you know, reamplify their message. Yeah. And I mean, politicians have to enact a lot of what they say. So if Toronto decides to take measures to stop large groups of people,

I mean, John Tory is going to have to kind of operationalize that, but he's not the one. He's listening to advice from the expert who has, you know, so much knowledge about epidemiology and communicable health and all that stuff. All right, let's take a pause from COVID-19. I will just let everybody know.

We're going to get through this, stick together, listen to the experts, and we're going to get through this. And one day we'll look back and go, remember COVID-19 and how everything shut down for a month or so. So hang in there. We'll keep reading the news and following good sources and being advised on what you should do.

But I'm curious, before I ask you about your career here, have you seen Run This Town, the Rob Ford inspired movie? I will. Yeah, there's a lot of Rob Ford content now when you take it that my former colleague, Robin Doolittle,

wrote a great book called Crazy Town. That was kind of the first thing. Mark Toohey, who was Rob Ford's chief of staff, wrote a book, which i also read and liked less but i read it um and then now they're being there's podcasts and there's movies um i'm gonna see the movie because i think i'll see the movie mostly because it's fictionalized and i'm curious to see how they did it uh some of the other stuff i've listened to a little bit but i think because i i lived and breathed that stuff and it's so recent right yeah i just i listened to you know there's a very well regarded podcast and i i heard a bit of it

but it was kind of like you know it's told in a dramatic fashion and there was a whole thing about like about you know and then nick cuvalis realized that rob had been keeping all the names of all the people he'd interacted with and this was and i was like like i knew that in like 2011 or something so for me just because i lived and breathed it and I'm not dissing that in any way it's just I'm a weird audience for that kind of stuff well that is

the host of that show Jordan Heath Rawlings yeah yeah yeah is coming up very soon on Toronto Mike and I want to say it's a Rogers production right so you get a lot of

yeah Mulligan and a lot of the Rogers people kind of right and I think my my colleague in Powell Jennifer Pagliaro

I think was on the podcast yeah I think so colleague and pal, Jennifer Pagliaro, I think was on the podcast. Yeah, I think so. And she liked it. It's just, like I said, it's just because I, it's like almost telling somebody about your own family. Like the Fords were like 98% of my brain

for so many years that it's hard to like shock me or something. And I mean, I didn't cover it like you do, but it feels like I lived it so recently. I'm not ready yet to look back. Well, I mean, Doug Ford's still there, right? So the story's like, and there's so many echoes of Rob

and of Donald Trump and all that stuff. So yeah. It just seems too soon to look back upon something that we literally just lived. Like I feel like you need more time. I think we're still, I've always thought that Toronto is collectively working through

the weird trauma of the Rob Ford mayoralty. And I think we're, we're still doing that. And then the Doug Ford premiership is kind of like another layer of things for us. We just get to share the pain with more people. I think, I mean,

it's just, and then that's not to say that the Ford, uh, run is better. And it's just, it's different, right? He's there.

They're just like markedly different from a regular politician. And they would say that's their strength and that's their brand. Some people would say that's maybe their problems, but it's definitely something we're all kind of figuring out. Absolutely. Okay, let's,

because I want to talk about the Toronto Star. Yeah. But tell me a bit about, you mentioned a couple of spots where you spent some time at the Sun and you mentioned some other stops. Like where does it begin for you in the media right so i've had a i have an unusual career i think it's been a great career but a lot of people so i went to ryerson for journalism and um uh you know i graduated certainly media was healthier but it was still hard to get a job a

lot of my friends say like some of them went almost right to the toronto star and they're still there i see them like they and that they've had just a great career at one place. I kind of had this whole other like hopscotch around the country kind of thing and then abroad. So I used to, sometimes I forget places I work because I worked a lot of places. Okay, let's work it through together.

I'll try and work it through. Okay. So I graduate from Ryerson. I apply to every daily newspaper across the country and promise myself I'll go to whoever will hire me. The Brandon Sun in Brandon, Manitoba, where I don't think i'd ever been before then hires me i went i had two and a half great years made lots of friends did lots of great journalism small small paper you get opportunities you would never at a small place like i got to interview the mayor

the first day the premier within the first month and i covered uh the prime minister then maroney within the first year so i yeah that's a that's a big one yeah so i had a great great time there so so brandon then i moved to the winnipeg sun which at the time is was owned by quebec war but it's not part of the sun chain um i was there for a couple years then i went to the ottawa sun which was then part of the other chains and then i had a really good um run there it was a small paper with big ambitions um the editor-in-chief a guy named rick van sickle wanted to like kind of basically punch above our weight and win awards so i worked and i worked with a great bunch of people rob benzie who is the queen's park bureau chief i worked with him um a bunch of other people in ottawa and uh so won some awards and did some things and i covered

actually rob forrest i'd say my career was the second big big story the first one was uh the Somalia scandal which was people remember that some Canadian soldiers from the Canadian Airborne Regiment uh tortured a Somali teenager to death and it was a terrible story had him yelling Canada Canada for mercy and all this kind of stuff and then there was a big cover-up and so I got on that story and got a fantastic source and ended up breaking a lot of stories and having kind of a, for about 19 months, that was kind of my life. And then I got promoted kind of at gunpoint to the Toronto Sun. And I wanted to come back to Toronto, but I knew the Toronto Sun at the time wasn't doing the kind of big picture investigative travel stuff. So I think I, I think I turned it down twice.

And then finally I was told like, they kept adding money. Like I was getting a great salary and they finally said, you have to go. So I did it. And I lasted about a year and a half, but it was, it was,

I worked with great people. I'm happy with some of the stories, but it just wasn't the same. What era are we talking about? We are talking now, uh, late 1990s when I moved to the Toronto Sun. Okay.

And what specifically were you doing at the Sun in 1990s now that we have you back in the big smoke here? So back to the Toronto. I mean, just your, I mean, I'm, they were happy with them, but really regular daily news stories. And there wasn't like the same opportunity to step out. And I mean, in Ottawa, it was kind of crazy. Like I got to go to Europe. I did a big project on the politics of food and like, like stuff that was actually ahead of its time about like growth hormones and fisheries and all that stuff and and the toronto side of the time i just wasn't going to get that kind of this okay

now you were a reporter right not yeah no editorial at that point no i'm not a columnist uh just a straight report so basically i was in a bit of a pickle because um and i think it might still be the same i was i started off at a broadsheet and then I moved to a tabloid. And even though I kind of always felt like I was more of a broadsheet, like a sort of longer form serious journalism guy, but I did as well as I could within the tabloid sun format. And, and,

but then I, my job opportunities were limited. Like, did I want to go to another sun? I did. The Toronto sun was the big, you know, it was the big show for them. So what do I do?

I had a friend who had come back from Japan and she said, listen, why don't you go apply for the same program I was on called Japan Exchange and Teaching Jet and then you can freelance to broadsheets and kind of build up your clippings for the Globe or the Star or whatever. Right.

And I was intrigued and I said to my wife, we had to drive to Ottawa for something and I said,'s on the trip let's decide if we want to do this um and by oshawa we said yeah let's go to japan and so i applied got it and um and i did it so i taught in a suburb of osaka i taught in a senior high school called sanokoko had a fantastic time there and did the plan i freelance i was working full-time as a teacher yeah with a japanese teacher helping me kind of it's called team teaching so when the kids didn't understand my english she would jump in and help explain stuff um and then we uh i both of us my wife donna and i but but more me i guess started writing a lot of news stories so i started freelancing for the National Post

and for the Toronto Star, for the Globe and Mail, for the South China Morning Post in Hong Kong. And by the time I came back after two years, I had like a pretty good broadsheet array of things. Well, just like you drew it on the board. It was a good drive to Ottawa. And actually my plan ended up working because I did kind of reinvent myself.

But when I first came back, I decided to freelance. And I freelanced for a few years, mainly for the Ottawa Citizen, the National Post. Then we decided we were going to have kids. So I decided, oh, I should have something with benefits. I went and worked for CBC. Had a good run. What did you do there? I worked at a website called CBC Archives.

So I was building, basically I was building multimedia backgrounders using archived radio and TV clips. So we would figure out the story like Metric Comes to Canada or the Terry Fox story. You would go look through old clips and then kind of build a story with writing,

connecting what was happening. I love that job. Yeah, it was great. It was actually a great job. And then I got to do a secondment to CBC Radio local. I was working for a radio reporter for CBL. But then, and my wife is at CBC, she still is.

But then we both got locked out. There was a big four-month lockout. And so we were both out of a job. And she was pregnant out to here with my son, Ben. So I had to leave. I reluctantly said, we've got to diversify. So I went to... Yeah, that is dangerous to both be working. Yeah, it is. Especially these days to diversify so I went to yeah that is dangerous to both especially these days yeah so I went to Reuters news service big international news service and I worked as an

online editor for about a year and a half and then I got to the Toronto Star and I've been at the Toronto Star since 2005 2006 when you were in Japan uh in a nutshell what is the what's the biggest cultural differences between uh you know everything Canada and Japan I wouldn't even know where to start like it's I was prepared for not knowing the language I knew like three words when I went over there I you know I picked up sort of get around Japanese but um it was just like it was language difference but just the way you came at looking at the world I have one quick story to illustrate that is i went out with um some of the uh other foreigners plus some japanese teachers uh just like not long after i got there and i'd been reading up and stuff and i said it

was a woman who was teaching at my friend's school and i said i heard there's like a some kind of little fish you guys eat but you people eat it while it's still alive and it's moving around your mouth and i was kind of like like a little bit horrified she was like oh yes it's near here we'll go and she started to grab her back and i was like no no no no i'm just asking about it like and she goes why don't you want to go and i said oh like and i tried to do a culturally kind of sensitive explanation of why i didn't want to eat a live fish and why in the west we might think we have to humanely kill it before we eat it and she listened to it and she like her english was perfect she was understanding it and then i finished and she looked at me she said but it's

fresh and i went yeah it's kind of too fresh and i tried to i tried to come at it from a different angle and i told the story and i finished and she goes but it's so fresh and i just thought you know what like we understand it but our our cultural all the reference points are completely different and there was just a lot of that it was a fantastic experience so many weird things happen we just go out and something bizarre that you never would have anticipated partly because you're a foreigner in a place where there's not very many foreigners so you're kind of like an instant celebrity an instant oddity and so you get thrust into stuff but there was some like bizarre experiences.

You should have written about this or did you? I think I wrote little bits and pieces here and there. I included it in some different pieces. But yeah, no, it was very, everything was just weird. Can I tell one other quick story? Yeah, of course. So there was a holiday and it was like a kind of a national holiday where people like remember Japan's history

or something like that. And Japanese friends said, let's go over to the next little town and there's an ancient Japanese house and you can go and watch them do like paper making and ancient crafts. Fine. We go and there was a thing

where people were going in and they would dress you up in Japanese wedding kimono. And so it was all the Japanese people were doing it in kind of old fashionedfashioned, and then they get a picture taken. But when they saw, the people who were running it, when they saw me and my wife, they went crazy. And they were like, they came running up

to us, and they were like, are you going to get married? And we actually, like, thought we were, but we hadn't really officially said it. Yeah, we looked at them, and we were like, yeah. And they got very excited, and they said, you have to come and get dressed. So they take me in one place, They take my wife in another. Mine, it was a very old Japanese woman.

And I'm like, ah. And she goes like, basically in Japanese, she's like, take off your clothes. And I was like, ah, ah. And she goes, take off your pants. And so she very quickly wrapped me up in a Japanese male kimono. My wife's took a lot longer. The women's kimono was a lot more elaborate. And so I go out and I wait.

And then Donna comes out. She told me that they weren't used to Canadian hips. And they were all kind of oohing and a lot longer. The women's kimono was a lot more elaborate. And so I go out and I wait and then, and then Donna comes out. She told me that they weren't used to Canadian hips and they were all kind of oohing and aahing and talking about how wide her hips were. Her hips aren't wide at all, but anyway. And so we come out and so people start taking our pictures like crazy. And we're just looking at it like this weird.

And all of a sudden a newspaper reporter comes and he starts interviewing us and the same, like, when are you getting married? And we're like, and then a TV camera comes and does an interview. And then we go back and we change and we walk out and we're like, and we go home. We're like, that was weird. And the little postscript is for the next month, almost everybody came up to me and said, I saw you on TV.

That's wild. And I, but I was so confused for the first couple of weeks. I just said, I finally said to one, is this the most popular show in japan like how can everybody have seen it he said oh no in the train station near there there's a big video wall and they replay it all the time so we always see you guys like getting married uh so japan but it was fascinating i mean at times infuriating it's a it can be a difficult place to be a foreigner, but I'll never have that big a learning curve where every time you walk out the door, you learn something new.

I also got racially profiled. I got stopped by the cops all the time. Interesting. Yeah, yeah. It's like a Twilight Zone. Six times in two years, I got stopped by the cops. Yeah, just walking or biking. Wild, wild.

Yeah, I'm sure that since then now, I guess you can adapt to everything, right? Like now they must help you adapt to anything. I think it was great resiliency training. I mean, I've done some traveling, like I went to Haiti and did stories there and other places where you could be just kind of like shocked by what you see around you.

I traveled in India a fair bit. And yeah, after you're, I think I actually, I enjoy being a fish out of water. I think it's fascinating to have to figure out on the fly what's going on and how to adapt. But not too fresh a fish out of water. Yeah, I don't want to be too fresh a fish. No, I don't want the fish alive in my mouth.

I wouldn't eat that either. But then again, I'm from here. Macho Japanese food is a whole thing. So it's funny you mentioned uh just a few minutes ago about how you and your wife were both at the cbc together and that can be dangerous because it's going to tie into something i'm going to ask you about later a husband and wife team who work at the same place okay so look at that teasing of what's coming up next so when you 30 how long you been at the star i've been at the star since i think on staff 2006 i think

i was on contract a year before that so we'll say 15 years 15 years okay and you've always like what have you done throughout the 15 years you've always so yeah i came in at the very bottom uh and i had a friend who worked at the star uh linda barnard who's now uh left the star but she said she she was in as an editor and she said they'll tell you they won't hire you as a reporter because you weren't kind of like raised and cultured here at the star so go in as an editor and then at some point you can try and jump the fence and they'll tell you you can't but you can good advice yeah so i came in as a contract summer summer contract copy editor and did that and then had to go back to cbc for a while and then came back to the star and then basically i moved up from uh contract copy editor to staff copy editor to slot, which is kind of like a supervisor of copy

editors. And then to night assignment editor, where I was in charge of a whole bunch of interns who are all now doing fabulous things and have amazing careers all over the world. Um, and then I did that for a couple of years. And then I had told my boss at the time, um, you know, I'd like to become a reporter again and uh you know I did it for quite a while before I came here and people only at the start only knew me as an editor and then he had just sort of said oh okay I'll think about it and then he called me to his office one night and he said uh he said you still want to be a reporter and I said yeah and I was thinking I would become a general assignment or something just like and I kind

of get my feet wet back you know get used to being a reporter again. And he said, okay, I want you to be the city hall bureau chief. Wow. And I said, Oh, uh, Graham, like that's, that's a big job. And he was like, yep. And I said, but it's an election year and David Miller's not running. That's going to be a huge story. And he said, uh, yeah, but you can do it. I know you can do it. And I was like, Oh, I don't know. And I was so like, it was just seemed so daunting so daunting i said can i think about it and i always remember i'm gonna use this on somebody he said that he said he said okay i won't force you to do it but i want you to know i have no second choice and i was like i was like oh okay graham so i went away for about two or three days and i said okay i'll do it and i came in like not knowing i didn didn't know who the city counselors were. I have only a basic idea of how city hall worked.

And then, and then I heard, Oh, there's this guy, Rob Ford, who thinks he's going to run for mayor, but he has no hope in hell. Cause he's like,

you know, kind of a wild man and all this stuff. Right. And then I, I actually did a lot of early stories on the Fords. I, I partly because they're from Etobicoke. I'm from Etobicoke.

I just, I'd heard about his thing about going out and doing customer service with people, about getting their problems fixed. So I actually went out and spent a day with him. And this is the era where he's appearing

on John Oakley's show and talking about how some counsellor spent $250 on a cappuccino machine. Can you believe that? Yeah, so we're talking February, March 2010. He officially announced, I think, in late March.

But actually, I spent, like, I went out three or four times, went out to Etobicoke and hung out with Rob and Doug, who Doug, at that point, was not known in the public at all. Right. And, yeah, there was this one funny thing where I said, I sent Rob a message not long after I got into the job, and I said, you know, I'm new at the Star. I've heard about you doing your stuff.

I want to go out and spend a day with you and do a story. And he was like, oh, the Toronto Star. He was like, okay, buddy. Yeah, sure. Meet me at this corner at like 8 a.m. And I went and I met him. And I thought I would get in the van. Was it the Esso at Scarlet in New Bridge?

I can't remember. It was probably not that far from here. But it was somewhere. And so I went to get in his van. He was like, no, no, no. Can't come in here. Follow me in your Bridge. I can't remember. It was like, it was probably not that far from here, but it was somewhere, somewhere. And so I went to get in his van. He was like, no, no, no, can't come in here.

Follow me in your car. I was like, okay, whatever. He had the crappy old van at the time. Yeah, yeah. It had Rob Ford was the license. Yes, that's right. The old brown van. Yeah.

And I followed him around and he was extremely effective. He went from place to place, like hearing everybody, fixing these problems. City staff were waiting for him at every place. He drove like a bat out of hell. Like I lost him a few times i had to call him like he

just like roared down an alleyway and i'd be like where'd he go and so anyway by 11 i thought i spent the day by 11 o'clock i'll be honest i was exhausted i was like wow okay he's busy he's doing all this stuff and i said to him like okay rob that's great like i actually don't have i've got my story it's good and he said no no we got one more place and i said well like no i think i'm good and he said no you have to follow me and he gave me the address and we roll up and it was a factory and it was deco label and tapes but i'd never heard of right and he said come with me and all of a sudden i was on a factory tour so he's showing me all these printing presses and i was like i don't know what's going on like i didn't really want to do a story in his company what's going on and we go and he's describing

stuff and all of a sudden so he's like a 300 pound blonde guy all of a sudden another 300 pound blonde guy comes out and it's doug and he's gonna meet my brother doug and i was like oh hi i'm like this is weird and again we're on the he's talking they're talking about their dad and the stuff and then another door opens and then another 300 pound blonde guy and he's got a hat right he's got a hat yeah and i was like what is happening and so we do the tour and then they said, okay, let's go sit down. And we go in the boardroom. And then they essentially, it was really fascinating actually, in that Rob, as soon as Rob started, moved into the background

and Doug sort of did all the talking and Rob deferred to Doug. And I was like, well, that's interesting. And then Doug, they essentially laid out, they didn't officially announce that Rob was running for mayor because they promised that to Oakley, I think, but they came up right to the line. I could write the story saying like, and they actually even said like,

and Doug might run for council. And I always remember because I, and then I walked out thinking, well, this is a totally different story than I thought it was going to get. And I think the last thing, just as I was walking out, the last thing Rob said something like, said something like, oh, if Doug gets down there like like watch out or hold on to your

hat or no i know you know what he said he said they're not gonna know what hit them and then and then everything took on a it's gonna be like kuwait yes and then yeah yeah he referenced kuwait later and then the weird thing is you know everything got so weird with the Star and the Fords, but I always, even during all that, I still could keep like an okay one-on-one professional relationship with them because of those early interviews. Because they remembered that. Yeah, because I'd gone out there and hung out.

I'd gone to their houses. I'd like, you know, I'd gone to their company and all that other stuff. Yeah, I mean, you had some time at the Sun. Yeah. And then, of course, all these years at the Star. Yeah. And I always wonder, because nowadays, Canada land, I mean, you had some time at the Sun. And then, of course, all these years at the Star. And I always wonder, because nowadays, Canada Land, for example, will leak some memo for Toronto's people writing for the Sun

that basically spells out their intent to help the Progressive Conservative Party in Dougford and stuff like that. So you'll literally have the smoking, like things you suspected to be true are like written down, like a smoking gun is right there and stuff like that. But when you're reporting,

reporting is supposed to be just facts. But you can cherry pick facts and spin them even in a reporting to have a bias on one side or the other. So was there any such, at the Sun, was there any such instruction to spin things in favor of... I can honestly say, so I worked at three Suns and won internal Sun awards and was like a Sun guy.

I never had any direction like that. I mean, I think you knew what angle the paper liked. Oh, sure. Everyone knows that. And the city editor was like well this is small business so this is important or something like that but I never had anybody say write it this way and you know the people I think of like like Rob Benzie and my friends Gary Marr and all these others like we're good solid journalists and we just wouldn't have done it like we would have we would have said no you know and I've had journalism,

it's kind of a weird business. You end up doing a lot of strange stuff and you end up being in a lot of weird circumstances just because it's like you're on the fly and you're covering histories that unfolds and stuff. I mean, I have had a couple of times I've said no to assignments and to editors, but I don't remember ever one at the Sun where it was like a politically driven kind of thing.

Now, I have to ask about the toronto star because uh you know people on the right and you know these guys will tell you that the you know the toronto star is like pro-liberal party that left leftist drag or whatever conversely have at the toronto star was there ever a mandate to spin things left of center or anything no I mean I'm happy to say it and people I don't know people believe it but like I we just want the truth yeah well I mean again I guess you know like the Star has its editorial page and it's the Atkinson principles and it's essentially like small l liberal um but I don't have I mean I have an editor who says that's a good story or that's a bad story but it's always

based on what the merits are and what the journalism is and you know people who I see the you know I get the Twitter comments and the people who you know say Red Star and all that kind of stuff I'd say look at like Google Toronto Star Justin Trudeau and Blackface and see how many

stories we did and how people were pounding them for that and we were amplifying that voice Justin Trudeau and blackface and see how many stories we did and how people were pounding them for that. And we were amplifying that voice. Um, yeah, no, I, I mean, I think good journalism is good journalism. And, uh, and the fact is if you, if there's, there's a lot of forces in society that are, have a lot of money behind them and a lot of, um, power to make things go a certain way. And if you hand a microphone to the small person who's about to get like steamrolled by that large corporation, people, people are going to say, Oh, you're lefty or this or that.

And I just don't, I just don't buy it. Like I think, you know, there's a lot of development in the city, a lot of power there. There's, you know, city hall, there's a lot of people around there. And our job I think is to say, say okay they're saying this is great but this person who doesn't have that voice and doesn't have power is going to be impacted by it and we have to kind of shine a light on them to me that's just not left or right that's just like good accountability journalism and you could put an argument forward that you know doug ford is in power today because of reporting done by the toronto star like you could because you could basically an argument forward that, you know, Doug Ford is in power today because of reporting done by the Toronto Star.

Because you could basically say a gas plant. And it's a certain reporting that Kevin Donovan and others at the Toronto Star, you know, did that really helped to, I mean, bring down the provincial liberal government. Yeah. I mean, the thing is, it's so easy for people to wave the arm and say oh the stars this or stars that and i don't i don't like there's no arguing like i'm not gonna you know the twitter trolls and then other people i mean some of them are they they're entitled to their beliefs and and that's what the thing is it's not my job it's my job to do as good a good journalism as i can and put it out there and what people want to do with it they can ignore it they could not

which is actually one of the there was so many fascinating things about about covering ford in the way we did and one of them was i would get people on both sides i would get people to come up to me and say you know you're not going to get rid of rob ford and i'd say like i don't want to get that's not my job like that's i put the stuff out there and then i had other people on the other side who come up and say don't worry like you're going to get him out of there he's not going to get reelected i said like i don't care like and what and i honestly don't think they believe me and i'd say like whether people want to reelect rob ford or doug that's not my concern like vote however you want my job is to put the information out there and you can process it you can ignore it you can take it to

heart whatever but my job is to say my job is to say you can't say you weren't warned about things because here it all was right right right right right now the newspaper industry yes i always talk about my shoulder slump yeah i see this the body language here but uh i talk a lot about my yesterday so me i have four kids we were all in pizza yesterday at the table and i was talking about flow 93.5 i was talking because my wife sometimes listens to the morning show and I'm like, you know, the morning show is now the afternoon drive show because they're syndicating this New York City show.

And I had a passionate little speech I gave about how our hip hop commentary in the mornings is coming out of NYC. And it was quite the thing, unrecorded, but just for the table. And my wife looked at me and said, you know, something to the effect of, you know, you are probably the only one

who cares that much about radio. Like that's what she said. And I was thinking, and then I was thinking, because we talk about ratings. Yes. And I'll get to, I'm going to get back to the papers here.

Except we'll talk about how, excitedly we'll talk about how 1050 has caught 590 in the morning and afternoon drive can you believe it and we'll talk about share percentage so it's a percentage of whole that means it's a number out of 100 and it it's a pie meanwhile the pie is a shrinking of the shrinking pie right as a podcasts and things like that so it's a shrinking pie and satellite radio and a million other things spotify everything else so a shrinking pie and so the we're talking about relative percentages of a shrinking pie but it is a shrinking pie in radio and newspaper industry it's a shrinking pie

yeah so yeah basically the upshot was that uh newspapers used to make a ton of money off display advertising like the big ad for whatever for company or whoever took out like a half page ad or a full page ad they were expensive um you know we made a little and also a lot of money off classified ads and you know the money people would pay for it the thing was always minor like what to actually spend for the money or the subscription um the internet came along and suddenly display ads weren't the currency they used to be. Advertisers had so many more options like, you know, well, I could hire a YouTube influencer or I could make a viral video where our bank like, you know, send some poor people on the trip of their life.

AdWords. Yeah. There's just so many options. Right. So those display ads aren't getting what they used to. Craigslist came along and kind of demolished the classified ad industry. So what you're left with is online ads, which turns out people won't pay very much for online ads. You can get all the clickbait you want, but you're still not getting a lot of money. So where we're at in the evolution of things

with the newspaper side of journalism is um you know a lot of people had paywalls then they took the paywalls down now the paywalls are back up and so subscription right now for for most i think big newspapers subscription is going to what's carry it carry us the trick is um how much does it fund can we still do things like investigative journalism is really expensive it's really time consuming just uh my office alone the money we spend on freedom of information requests because you have to pay money to get them to like photocopy large amounts of things and do different things you know you know it's it's a considerable sum of money and we're not even the investigative team um and it's

and to to break a story like i i did a story about how, this is five years ago, about how the city was secretly, the mayor's office in the city in Toronto Hydro were secretly considering privatizing Toronto Hydro. I mean, that was like super time consuming. I had to get sources. I had to get things confirmed. I had to do free information. Like just that kind of accountability is really expensive.

So anyway, all that to say, we're still, we don't know how it's going to work or if it's going to work. Things are very, very, very dire. And I love journalism and I believe journalism to survive, but whether people can make a, like raise a family on the income from it is a big question mark.

It's, to me, it's frightening because, you know, I don't remember the expression, I remember things that happen in the shadows or whatever, but a strong, you know,

strong journalism is your best way to fight corruption in government and elsewhere. Now, man, I'm, we're, okay, so I talked about the shrinking pie, and I've had on this show very recently Peter Howell. Yes. Okay, he came on. What a great conversation he comes on. Oh, recently, Peter Howell. Yes. Okay. He came on.

What a great conversation he comes on. Oh, good. We had the best conversation. And we talked openly and honestly about everything. I could tell. Before you go any farther, I got to ask, how did Peter Howell fit in this basement?

The guy's like seven feet tall. Leo Roudin's fit in this basement. Oh, okay. So he did. Wow. Peter, yeah. Okay, sorry. You're right, though. He's a chiropractor, but go ahead.

No, you're absolutely right, though. But I could tell he wasn't delusional. He understood his industry and everything, but he did not think that he would be taking a buyout I think less than a month later he was gone. He accepted a buyout

and is no longer at the Toronto Star. It just happened very quickly. Not like COVID-19 quickly, where every 20 minutes 20 i'm sure during this episode everything's changed like i'm sure if i check my phone after oh everything's different we're gonna open the door and everything will be on fire or like the sky will be red or something like things are changing very quickly but so peter howell's no longer in it i know that uh my fotm uh ben rayner told me he's reassigned but was very vague in terms of where the hell

Ben's at. Do you know where Ben's at? I don't. And I'll say like I know I'm so busy with the City Hall and what I do and I actually don't work in the newsroom. I work at City Hall. I'm not actually a one young straight. Right, you don't go to one young. Yeah. So I only know kind of what I see. Ben's a good friend

of mine and also Ottawa Sun. He was part of that fantastic crew I worked with. Right. He's a good Maritimer. Yeah. And know kind of what I see. Ben's a good friend of mine. And also Ottawa Sun. He was part of that fantastic crew I worked with. Yeah. He's a good Maritimer. Yeah. And so, and also kind of like a rock star. I always thought he's like a rock critic who actually is kind of like. Oh, he's great.

He's got charisma and he always had like a group of people. But he's a dying, he knows he's a dying breed. Like how many people do another left? Yeah, I think he, I taught a course at Centennial last term. And he did a, he spoke to the class for me. Yeah. And he said, I'm probably the last full-time rock critic in Canada things are changing and it's just people are trying to figure out what pays and um and we have to figure out what drives subscriptions so

right all I will say and I just don't know the inner workings but it sounds like uh having a local entertainment uh team is something that had to go I I don't i i don't know i i i would tell you if i knew but i i just don't but i only gonna say this you know i've seen some stuff on twitter about like people like going crazy over some typos in the star story because they don't think it's more it says edited of course we have fewer a lot for people than used to and i think i saw somebody was pretty well known who actually like sort of calling for a, um, calling for people to quit their star subscriptions based on what an editorial said about something. And I just think when I read that, I just think you,

to me, I think you honestly don't realize how dire it is. Like you don't realize that like everything, not just the star, everything that does this kind of journalism is in dire jeopardy of not existing anymore. And so you're free to call for it, but you're going to miss people like us when we're gone. I was going to say that exact line, that it's one of those things you'll miss. Personally, I grew up with the stars,

so I've always read the star. But even if you don't read the star, you're going to miss them when they're gone. I think it's important. Yeah. And again, it's not just us. I mean, the Globe and Mail is lucky in that they're owned by the richest guy in Canada. But everybody is on a razor's edge.

And the people like us who do really tough, often investigative journalism, it's even harder. I did tease earlier about a husband and and wife team that at the same place, Mary Ormsby and Paul Hunter, right? They're coming on this show. That's what's happening. We don't have a date. It was supposed to be January, but things were crazy.

We needed things to fail. So the way I understand it is that they might still be around till the summer, but they have accepted a buyout. So they are gone, but they might stick around till the summer. Quite a few people took it in the last round yeah so at some point i know you're you don't have all the answers you just do your job you do the best your ability but you actually at least you're it feels like at some point the toronto star is just news like

that's how it just feels like it'll be news and they'll have they'll they'll take uh like if it's a entertainment or something that's not news they they'll wire services or they'll pay for syndicated content. I'm not sure all I can say is there are lots of people at my place, my shop, and others who are trying to figure out how to make different things pay. And the one advantage of everything changing so quickly is there are hopefully new revenue streams opening up. And I'm not saying a secret.

It's been on Twitter. And I hope people listen. The Toronto Star is going to start its own news podcast. So, and I'm going to be on that. I know. Well, let's talk in detail then. Great detail. Because yeah,

I was actually in the Toronto Star talking podcast. Just before the entertainment section disappeared, I guess. But I was interviewed by Raju Mudhar. Yeah. And he told me in that conversation what was happening so he told me hey we're building a team a podcast team and we're gonna have podcasts in early 2020 or whatever right so i am naturally curious because i produce podcasts as well but what so tell us the toronto star podcasting strategy and exactly where you're at like to the best of your knowledge yeah I will say to the best of my knowledge um I know there is a team um I know that um they've already they've obviously done lots of dry run-throughs and that um I've I've talked with them about the

Gardner there's going to be an issue about how much the Gardner costs and how what a big kind of albatross it is on the city's budget um and but there will be all kinds of things i mean i i i can't give you a lot of detail except that it's it's driven by toronto star journalism i don't think it's going to be a daily news podcast it's going to be more bigger picture um but and i i think i think the plans are forming and it's i know it's going to be coming out soon i hope it's going to be great i know the people who are involved in it and they're real pros do you want to name them yeah name the uh well i i know the two i know involved in it and they're real pros. Do you want to name them? Yeah, name the – The two I know that I've dealt with most is Raju Mudhar, who's well-known as an entertainment journalist, and he's working on it.

And then Adrian Chung, who was at CBC and has now joined our team and is kind of – a lot of us who grew up in ink-stained and then pixel-stained and saying, here's how broadcast works and here's what you should do. And here's, you know, here's how you collect sound. I mean, I have a,

I did some of that at CBC and my wife's a radio producer. So I kind of have a, maybe a little bit more knowledge than some people, but it's still a whole different way of doing things. Yeah. Well, this is, this is exciting.

Better late than never. Like I know there's been little attempts here and there, like there was a podcast with Laura Armstrong and Doug Smith. That's Beth Reppers, yeah. And there were different things that pop up that I would dig and then they'd kind of disappear or whatever. But this is good that you have a, there's an actual Toronto Star podcasting strategy.

You teased a show called This Matters. Right. Is that the show? That's the podcast. Okay. Yeah. And when did, do you have a launch date? I, you know, I've read it in an email.

I believe it's, all I will say is it's soon. And I think if you look at Twitter or look at Raju, you'll be able to see people will be able to see the exact date. I think I have one in mind, but I don't want to say it because then I'll be wrong and I'll get in trouble. No, I always think that you guys are basically your journalists and how you disseminate this. Yes, of course, you want to sell subscriptions.

Do you want to tell us, like what does it cost to subscribe to the Toronto Star? You must know that number. I should have prepared. Come on, David. I'm sorry. It should be tattooed on your body or something. I'm sorry.

I didn't come prepared for the podcast. But I will just say, well, tell me what you think about podcasting as an industry. Because it exploded. WTF. And everybody seems to have a podcast now. Is it a bubble? Or is it going to shrink because some people just aren't that good?

Or what's going to happen with it? Well, I always say, look at blogging. Okay? Right. So there was a time, I can tell you because I've been blogging. Okay. Right. So there was a time, I can tell you because I've been blogging since 2002 and about 2004,

I would say around there, everyone had a blog. Like everyone had to have a blog. Right. And at some point, most people realized, oh, it's a lot of work with very little money

and I'm going to do other things. And most blogs disappeared and then some good ones persevered and podcasting will probably have a similar arc. Like, like, uh,

I think it's a tremendous, uh, like channel for digital broad, for, for communication. Like, I think podcasting, like it's not going anywhere,

but like anything else, like good ones will continue. Ones that figure out how to monetize will continue. And the vast majority they'll realize, oh, this is a lot of work for very little return i'm gonna go do something i think so yeah uh but i do i believe the toronto star uh is it was missing out not having like a proper podcast considering you have the resources on staff right to produce

the hard part like i don't have any time i don't have anyone on staff to go do what jennifer's doing like you know what i mean like i can't afford that that's doing. Like, you know what I mean? Like I can't afford that. That's that. So I have, you know, like I'll have somebody like yourself on and a lot of opinion type podcasts to discuss things that you guys are reporting on. But you guys have that. You, you will be able, if you have a good podcast, a quality podcast that you can promote, you're the Toronto star for guys. You have a way bigger advantage than I have in my basement here. Then you will be able to sell advertising for your popular podcast

that people will have on their smartphones and will literally, when you push a new episode out to the masses, people will get a notification on their smartphone. Like, that's amazing. Yeah. Right? I mean, I think it'll be great.

I just, it'll be, I'll be curious. Like, it seems with, for us, like, I think there is an interest in Toronto City Hall and my team, I think there is an interest in Toronto city hall and my team I'm, I'm confident in saying covers it closely and better than anybody else. The only trick with, with is resources, right? Because like we are busy writing stories and then Jennifer and I do a newsletter now that goes out on Monday for people who are really in the city

hall. That just is a, is a recap of what we've done in the past week, plus some added value. And then we're going to have podcasts on top of that. At some point, you're kind of like, at some point I got to go home and see my kids, but it'll be, however we do it, it'll be great. Right. And just to be clear here,

this podcast is not for subscribers only. This is going to be on iTunes. Yeah, that's my understanding, but I just don't want to say anything that's wrong and then get in trouble. I will tell you, podcasts don't work unless they go on where people get their podcasts. That requires being on a public web server.

Every podcast I listen to, it's like, we're on Stitcher, we're on Apple, we're on this, we're on that. I should say my wife's launching a podcast. First of all, tell us your wife works at CBC. What does she produce? My fantastic wife is named Donna Dingwall. She is from Manitoba.

I met her when I worked at the Winnipeg Sun and then we started dating when we both worked at the Ottawa Sun. She is the senior producer of White Coat Black Art. Oh, I like it. I enjoy it. Which is a CBC medical show. It's a great show. She's lucky to be on a show where everybody says, that's a great show. And they have just launched a podcast called The Dose so it's a it's essentially like like the show but different

because it's a podcast and they do unique content so she's just now i think that she's been working on three weeks or something but um yeah and it's going well but it's so i'm hearing a lot about podcasts in my house well for a period of time uh as part of my tmds tronomic digital services i was writing a lot of pieces for a healthcare software company. Actually, funnily enough, that's at 1 Yonge Street. Oh, wow. There's a lot of stuff in there.

A lot of inspiration would come from me listening to White Coat Black. It's a great show. Which is a really quality show. I think it's a small, it's a four-person team. It's her, the host, and two producers. And I think for that,

what a bargain CBC gets. They do fantastic stuff. Okay, so so i will obviously when we have more details as to when the heck we can subscribe and listen to these toronto star podcasts and uh people can subscribe to the toronto star which uh is again some missteps along the way because that's uh star touch uh mess uh star touch is the right name, right? I get my things mixed up. StarTouch was the iPad-based new service that we had a few years ago.

But I hated it, and it's not your fault, okay, David? Don't worry, I'm not blaming you. But I hated it because I didn't have any iPad. I had, in fact, this tablet here is a Windows. It has Windows on it, believe it or not. And I have Windows laptop, and I do have a MacBook Pro, which is a laptop. But I i didn't have anything and i have an android phone right so these are the things in my life yeah there was actually nothing and i liked i probably would have tried this out

i like this paper and i won't i couldn't subscribe nothing would actually work with star touch yeah all i can say i mean i produce content for but all i can say on that is that I guess we had an iPad. My wife already had one and used it. I've never been much of an iPad person. So I could look at it and it looked great. And the ads, I think, were like they had like ads that were you could play like a video game and all sorts of interesting stuff. It was a lot of work on our end because it was a lot of extra kind of like details and a different way of storytelling. You know, all I can say on that is that we didn't,

that we tried. Like I, you know, I think we're not going to go down as a newspaper that just sort of said, oh, that's it. We're in full detent. Like we're going to try stuff. And so it was a bold move. Obviously it didn't go the way I or other people wanted,

but we gave it a shot. I have a little more swag for you. So you got your lasagna and beer in your sticker. That's impossible. I know. There's a book in front of you. Okay. It's called My Good Times of Stomp and Tom.

Oh, yeah. I love Stomp and Tom. By Duncan Fremlin. Oh. I also know Duncan Fremlin better as Banjo Dunk. Oh. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. There he is.

I can see him. Same guy. Now, Banjo Dunk, I got to get an update. Now, what are we in now? March? This is Friday the 13th. Right. Okay.

So it's still happening until it's canceled. Okay. Okay. Whiskey Jack presents stories and songs of Stomp and Tom at Zoomer Hall on Thursday, April 16th at 7.30 p.m. So Zoomer Hall, of course, has like Liberty Village there. That's right. I've been there.

John Tory had his campaign launch for 2018. Oh, cool. Yeah. And they play rugby right next door during the summer. Okay. Right. Lamport Stadium there. That's right. I've been there. John Tory had his campaign launch for 2018. Oh, cool. And they play rugby right next door during the summer. Okay. Lamport Stadium there. So, go learn more about Whiskey Jack Presents Stories and

Songs of Stompin' Tom because they're working on some big guests including some FOTMs like Tom Wilson, for example, of Junk House and Blackie and the Rodeo Kings who I think was supposed to play do some songwriter circle thing at the junos that was canceled yeah because everything's been canceled everything's canceled except toronto mic yeah i know well the other thing about about how fast things are moving

is last night i heard another it was a cbc late night show and it was like a preview of the journal the junos and talking about past winners and i was like how about they've been canceled right you can't what do you do? Yeah, I actually heard this. I was listening to CBC yesterday too and maybe you heard the same one. There was this promo for the Junos thing and whatever. So sad.

And they had just announced like, I don't know, three hours earlier or something and I was like, oh, I guess nobody there could just yank. I feel terrible for Saskatoon because what a great thing it is for a smaller city

to have everybody come and make a big deal out of your place and then the rug gets pulled out of it from where you go well i always i'm wondering now because i'm a big sports fan so i'm i'm i'm approaching everything right now like it's been paused not canceled and that ideally in like six weeks or whatever we can figure out how to get an nba and nhl playoffs in and get baseball maybe a short in season or something, get baseball rolling again. Well, that one for sure.

Cause it literally just hasn't even started yet. And, uh, I wonder about things like the Junos, like is the Junos canceled or postponed? And then maybe in May or June, they still hold it in Saskatoon and we all tweeted it. That would be fantastic.

I mean, yeah, I mean, everything seems to be suspended, which I think means we don't know if it's, if it's canceled or if it's, or if it's just postponed because we don't know how long this thing's gonna roll this episode by the way is dedicated to chris brown the greatest painter and i'm gonna drop his url uh although i know he's he's a busy guy so you gotta get in his schedule

but uh chrisbrownpainting.com great guy i honestly, one of the sweetest guys, great supporter of the show. Like he just said, Hey, he loves the show. Yeah. And he said, I, can I paint your studio?

And I'm like, but, but he said, I'll do it for free. He said, yeah. And it's like, he spent a lot of time here,

you know, Moe Berg drops by, you see, you know, he got to know Hebsey who lives in his neighborhood and some other interesting, Mike Zeisberger and stuff. And then at some point I said, okay, now I'm going to pay you real dollars to paint the upstairs.

So maybe that was his plan all along. Maybe. But got to meet the good Chris Brown. Yes. And because of him, I got to meet you. And does he come on a motorcycle? You know what? He never has come on a motorcycle.

He's just taken that up in the last couple of years. Him and I like drums and motorcycles and stuff like that. I don't ride, but maybe I will. He's doing good on it. Well, he's probably painting something right now with his earbuds on, listening to our voices. So hello, Chris Brown. Hey, Chris.

And David, great to meet you. I didn't get to shake your hand, but it still was a pleasure. We'll do kind of an elbow bump, but in the air, so it's even safer. I'm going to bow to you. I'll do a formal Japanese bow when I leave. I'll do the air, kind of an elbow bump, but in the air, so it's even safer. I'm going to bow to you. I'll do a formal Japanese bow when I leave. I'll do the nod and wink. I'm working on it. Sounds good.

And that brings us to the end of our 596th show. You can follow me on Twitter. I'm at Toronto Mike. David is at DM Rider. DM, don't forget the M. Is that like a middle name? It is, yeah. DM Rider. Our friends at Great forget the M. Is that like a middle name? It is, yeah.

DM Rider. Our friends at Great Lakes Brewery are at Great Lakes Beer. Palma Pasta is at Palma Pasta. Sticker U is at Sticker U. The Keitner Group is at The Keitner Group. K-E-I-T-N-E-R. And Banjo Dunk is at Banjo Dunk with a C.

See you all next week when my guest on Monday is Jim Lang. This podcast has been produced by TMDS and accelerated by Roam Phone. Roam Phone brings you the most reliable virtual phone service to run your business and protect your home number from unwanted calls. Visit RoamPhone.ca to get started.