Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - Donna Halper: Toronto Mike'd #1460

Episode Date: March 27, 2024

In this 1460th episode of Toronto Mike'd, Mike chats with Donna Halper about breaking Rush in Cleveland as the music director of WMMS. Toronto Mike'd is proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, Palma Pasta, Ridley Funeral Home, The Advantaged Investor podcast from Raymond James Canada, The Toronto Maple Leafs Baseball Team and RecycleMyElectronics.ca. If you would like to support the show, we do have partner opportunities available. Please email Toronto Mike at [e-mail]

What's up Miami? Toronto! VK on the beat, uh, check, uh I'm in Toronto where you wanna get a city love I'm from Toronto where you wanna get a city love I'm a Toronto man, you wanna get a city love Welcome to episode 1460 of Toronto Mic'd, proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, a fiercely independent craft brewery who believes in supporting communities, good times and brewing amazing beer. Order online for free local home delivery in the GTA.

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And Ridley Funeral Home – pillars of the community since 1921. Today, making her Toronto mic debut is Donna Halper. Hello Donna. Hey Sunshine, how are you? Oh I like it when you call me Sunshine, thank you. Oh just just be warned, I'm still recovering from pneumonia and my voice is sometimes yes, sometimes no. So, we'll go as far as we can for as long as we can and we'll hope for the best. But let me clear my throat here and let me see if I can just get a little bit more voice for you. Because trying our best here.

Sorry that you have to you know chat with me for 30 minutes with this condition but you're okay. What else was I doing with my life? Come on! You know, I mean the guys told me to do it, alright? Well Donna, welcome to Toronto Mic'd. It is a privilege, a pleasure, and I may be horse, but a horse is a horse. Of course, of course. Now you listened, please, I'd love to know what did you think of Bob Ropers?

Basically his podcast is going to, I was going to say his Toronto Mic debut, but it was his podcast debut. He's never done any podcast. What did you think of his performance? He is a very humble guy. He and I are still in touch. Okay. We've been in touch as recently as like a month ago.

I mean, we, you know, reach out to each other on social media. I saw him when I was in Toronto in 2019 attending a conference. And then of course, COVID hit and he got sick and then I got sick and et cetera and et cetera. But long story short, we keep in touch. But I've been asking Roper for years to, you know, can I interview him? Can I this? I have a blog for years to, you know, can I interview him? Can I this? Can I this? I have a blog. I write. You know, I'm on various webcasts. Nope, wouldn't do it. Just a very humble,

down-to-earth guy. And I commend you for getting him to participate because he really does not like to talk about himself. And that's a shame because he has a lot of interesting stories. Having been in the industry for a while, just like I have, he knows a lot of people. And the thing is, I can tell you from my own experience he never wants to make it about him okay and to some degree that's very typical to the guys I mean I've known Alex and Getty and Neil God rest his soul and Rutsi since like 50 years ago. And I can honestly say that when I met them and they were shy and they were humble and

they were terrified and they'd never been to Cleveland and this and that. Fast forward 20, 30 years, you know, they're in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, they're in the Hollywood Walk of Fame. They never did the, you know, don't you know who I am? You know, I mean, I only want the brown M&Ms, not the red M&M's. Never saw it, never. Okay, they were humble. Sure, they got more confidence. Sure, they got more faith in themselves. You know, this, that. But they never acted like rock stars, ever. And Roper is the same way. Roper knows everyone. If that person exists in the Toronto media scene, Roper probably has worked with them. And you'd never know it.

I mean, we went for coffee and a muffin, and he was the same guy in 2019 that he was in 1974. Just a sweetheart. Whatever you had to do to get him on, God bless you for doing it. Well the more I talk to people who know him well, the kind of the better I feel about the fact he came over, sat here in my basement studio, I could reach out and you know touch his top of his head here, and he gave me two hours and answered all my questions and you know we'll get we'll get to his

rush story because that's how you and I are connected here and we're going to get that rush story but I uh I think it's kind of amazing he did that with me and it sounds like I have a like a worldwide exclusive here so you know Bob Roper. We absolutely do and as I said before many people have tried to get him on webcasts, podcasts, etc. and etc. Nope. See, but now don't it to be the story and I commend him for that. But on the other hand, he deserves a lot of credit because what he did with respect to the Rush record, and by the way, his recollections are a little different from mine. And that's okay.

Come on, it was 50 years ago. But the basic story is unchanged. It was an act of altruism. It was an act where he didn't make a dime, I didn't make a dime, we both did it because it was the right thing to do and that's really rare in the industry, okay? I know an awful lot of people as I started to say and I

hope I don't sound like I'm babbling endlessly but I know an awful lot of people that are very taken with themselves. They think they are just so special and you've met people like that, okay? And so have I. Come on, I've been in the industry for a while. But it's refreshing to meet someone who really does know a lot of people and never treats it like, as I said earlier, like don't you know who I am. So when Roper sent me that record, I'm not surprised that he did it. He saw a band that he liked. He knew that his label wasn't going to sign him, but that wasn't the end for him. He felt like it was the right thing to do to make sure that I got my hands on that record.

And I cannot tell you how many times in my own career I've done favors for people, never heard from them again, not even so much as a thank you. So the fact that Roper stays in touch, the fact that the guys in Rush stayed in touch, highly unusual and something I am deeply grateful for. Now, Donna, you know what Bob Roper, Alex Lifeson, Geddy Lee, the late great Neil Peart, the late great Rutsi, you know what they all have in common? And they have this in common with myself here. Canadian, do you find Canadians are just more humble and more down to earth? Is that your experience?

Yes and no. I think that, you know, in general, stereotypes don't do a thing for me, okay? I mean, have you heard about the Jews? Have you heard about the Italians? Have you heard about the Jews? Have you heard about the Italians? Have you heard about the Greeks? I just don't even want to go there. I will say, however, that my business dealings with many Canadians for many years was that they were very humble. However, let's put that in context, for many years, fairly or unfairly, the industry was really centered in the United States such that even if you were a Canadian band, even if you were the best Canadian band that ever existed. Even if you were the guess who.

Bachman Turner Overdrive, Neil Young, Joni Mitchell, Shall I Go On, Rush, et cetera. If you wanted to be taken seriously, even in your own home, you had to go to the States. So I think, rightly or wrongly, there was sort of a built in inferiority complex. It was like, I can't believe you're calling me. You're from Cleveland and you're calling me? Really? You know, so I think that it was built in, that people in the Canadian industry felt like they were second fiddle. They felt like they were not taken

seriously. And when that's part of your national experience, you internalize it and you start enacting it. So to be honest with you, Mr. Mike, I don't know, or do you defer Mr. Toronto, Mike? I never met a Mike. I didn't like. No, seriously, never met a mic I didn't like. No, seriously, the reality is that I don't know if Canadians are in fact better brought up, more humble, whatever, or if Canadians in the music industry for so long felt like second best that they just internalized it. Because you know what? I've met jerks who are in the Canadian music scene too, okay?

I've met people and I'm not gonna name names but I met people who were just like yeah fine you know I think I'm better than everyone and I'm gonna prove it and I've met other people who are just humble till the day they died. Humble, okay? Neil Peart was humble. Yes, he had a lot of confidence. Yes, he knew he was a good drummer.

But again, you never saw him holding forth in a room talking about how he was the best drummer who ever existed. And I have heard some rock drummers doing that okay and I'm sitting there like um really like that's the story you're going with okay fine but Neil never did that Neil took pride in what he did but he never felt the need to demean or denigrate anybody else and I've got the feeling that whether he were raised in Canada or whether he were raised in, you know, East Hutzie Plottsie, United States,

I just think that's the kind of person he was. I have the feeling that you, sir, or me, you sir or me wherever we were raised I think we reflect how our parents raised us and yes is there a Canadian national ethos sure but I also want to credit people themselves because at some point you do become famous and then you got to make a decision. Do I act like the way I was raised? Because in Getty's case for example, and he talks about this in his book, he always wanted his mother to be proud of him till the day his mother passed. God rest her soul, I had the pleasure to meet her, talk some Yiddish with her. It was just a tremendous amount of fun. Till the day she passed, he always wanted to be the good son. Now, was he always there? No, come on, he was a working musician, he was

out on the road, but in his head was that little boy boy you know, Getty, Getty are you doing this and are you supposed to be doing this? And yes he got into some things that maybe he shouldn't have gotten into because that was the period of time. There was a lot of drugs, there was a lot of this, but he always pulled himself back from it and I wonder if that's just a reflection of how he was raised. And I think that love of his mother and that respect and admiration for his late father who passed when he was, when Getty was only 12, I think that the respect for how he was raised really affected who he became even years later. So long answer to the question.

Is it because he was Canadian? Partly. But I also think he had a very strong upbringing with people he admired and he carried that with him all the days of his life. Okay, Donna. So the Bob Roper episode. Sorry you asked. No, I'm not sorry you asked.

God, Donna, do you ever shut up? You just made you you hit it off the right on the nail on the head because it's the great Canadian inferiority complex because we're like the fly on the back of the elephant. We are you know this small nation above the the world's most mighty and see I've never thought of you guys that way ever okay. When I was a music director which I was for like two decades right when I was a music director I just wanted to play good imports I just wanted to play good imports. I just wanted to play good music.

I didn't care where it came from, okay? If it was British, if it was French, if it was Swiss, I mean, if it was Chinese, I didn't care. If my audience was going to like it, I wanted to play it. And that's why even in college, I made friends with music directors from other countries and record promoters from other countries. And some of those record promoters I am still in touch with. And I swear to God, I never thought, oh, this one's inferior this one i just thought ah great song

my audience is going to love it okay now that episode of bob bob roper on toronto mike he told this amazing story this rush story and it was involving the director of music for WMMS in Cleveland, a woman named Donna Halper. I know her. I, you know, I hear she's a really nice person. I get all misunderstood, but a really nice person. Well, she sounds lovely, but we're going to go back 50 years to the year of my birth. Okay, Donna, please tell me exactly how it transpired and then point out when it's a little bit different than the story Bob Roper told. How did it come to be that you had this record

with Working Man on it and you know, you're credited with discovering Rush? So here's the deal. This is kind of like the blind men and the elephant, you know, it's like one person touches the elephant's tail and says, aha, an elephant is like, you know, it's like one person touches the elephant's tail and says, aha, an elephant is like, you know, this long thing. And you know, some touch the leg and the trunk and so my recollection is that I had a number of friends who were Canadian record promoters and I got in touch with them on a regular basis because yes WMMS was a massive huge radio station very influential and I was the music director and my job was to get good records for the radio station along with my boss the program director John Gorman

that was the two of us that's kind of what we did and because I had the contacts with a lot of the folks in other countries so I would get in touch with Canadian record promoters and British record promoters and back then it was all done like through letters because like long-distance telephone oh my god it was expensive okay so like we'd write letters I still have some of those letters by the way. Okay? So my recollection is that yes, I got in touch with a bunch of my friends looking for records for our import hour. But my recollection is I did not host that show. Okay? I hosted the

prisoner request show, which was another thing that people were doing back in those days, because in our listening audience were two prisons. And the inmates used to like send us requests. That's how they got in touch with their girlfriends, their wives, their families. And we would like fulfill those requests requests and it made a big deal. In fact, I went down to the Ohio State Reformatory and I brought records to them and I helped them set up a prison radio station and I trained some of their DJs along with a social worker down there. I mean we had a great time so I did that show.

But my recollection is that while I was trying to get records for the import hour, I didn't host it, okay? I believe it was Steve Lushbaugh who hosted it, okay? And again, it's been 50 years. I could be wrong. I believe Steve is still alive. Maybe he'll get in touch and say, uh-uh, wasn't me. But I do believe it was. However you slice it though, I was trying to get records for the show.

Okay? And I was making the calls and making the rounds. And yes, I did talk to Roper and Roper said that he had a record he thought I would like. And I didn't know the backstory. I didn't know that he had seen the band in a club. I found that out years later. Okay. At the time, didn't matter. I trusted Roper.

There were a bunch of record promoters that like, I know I was supposed to have an adversarial relationship with them because like record promoters are always trying to get the records played and Every record they have is a hit and get and you're like, no Like this is right for us, you know So I was the one that sometimes was the gatekeeper. I had to say no it went with the territory but yeah, we all got along and I

Remember that he said he was going to send me a record that he thought I would like. And it came in a manila envelope and it came in a manila envelope that said A&M of Canada. And I knew that was where Roper were so I figured that it must be him. And I opened it up and I'm sitting in my little office and I'm looking for the longest cut on the record. Now this is again I hate to have to retell this story but it has been told wrong by a whole bunch of people online and it irritates me. Back in the old days Um, back in the old days, whoever designed radio studios must have hated DJs because late at night, if you had to answer the call of nature, the bathroom tended to be like five miles down the road and to the right.

Okay? So there you are trying to play a song, run down to answer the call of nature, and then run back and hope the record doesn't end. Okay? Every DJ's nightmare was like hearing the record run out. Right. Right. Click, click, and you're like stuck in the bathroom and there's nothing you can do. Long songs were jokingly called bathroom songs because the late night DJs use them when nature called. But I did not have to go to the bathroom. Nobody had to go to the bathroom. I was just looking for a long song, okay? And I found song, okay? And I found Working Man. Now it wasn't the longest song on the record, but I was looking for something up-tempo because our listeners, they loved rock

and roll. And the moment I heard those opening chords, I was like, oh my god. And then I heard the lyrics. Well, I get up at seven, yeah, go to work, and I got no time for living. Cleveland was a factory town. Republic Steel was the big industry. The sky was like orange with pollution every night. One time the lake caught fire, don't even ask. But my point is, I knew this was a Cleveland record.

Yes, it had the virtue of being a bathroom song, but it had a bigger virtue. Great lyrics, great musicianship. I'm like, who is this band? And I remember running it downstairs to the jock on the air who I believe was Denny Sanders And again, Denny is still alive and he sort of remembers that this happened So I think I'm I think I'm okay here long story short Yes, it was gonna go on the import hour, but we got it on before that and the phones lit up immediately. Is there a new Led Zeppelin album out? No, not Led Zeppelin. Canadian band. Rush, can you play that song again? And sure enough, we start getting Jagunda requests for Working Man. And pretty soon people are like where

can we buy this and I get in touch with the big store in town that has imports a store named Record Revolution and that's when I called up the management of the band I found out you know SRO up in Toronto fine I, I'll make a long distance call, fine with me. And I called them up and I think I talked to Vic because back then it was two guys, Ray Daniels, Vic Wilson. And Vic was like, why are we getting a phone call from Cleveland? No one in Toronto will play our records. But there they were, they were getting requests in Cleveland and pretty soon,

get a box of records down to record revolution, it sells out. People are still requesting the song. What else is on the album? That's when we started playing Here Again, that's when we started playing Finding My Way, but yes the song made the import hour, but long before that it was already getting requests. Now did I know at the time that this was going to happen? Could I tell you at that moment that this was going to happen? You know, did heaven, the heavens open up and choirs of angels sing in a marching band? None of those things. When you're a music director, and I've talked about this with Geddy, we were on stage together

in November during his book tour. I had the privilege of doing the question and answer because he asked me to do it and I was just humbled to do it. Plus it was very cool to be back in Cleveland. But long story short, when you're a music director, you can put a song on that you think is like the best song in the history of humanity. No one cares. Or you can put a song on that you're like, you know, kind of mediocre, but maybe the audience and it goes to number one. There's no predicting.

And there was also no predicting that I would meet the band, that they would come to Cleveland, that I would become friends with them, that I would like when the American pressing came out, that they'd put my name on it. People have said to me, did you get a finder's fee? Um, I got a 50-year friendship. How lucky am I?

Wow. That's a very long answer. No, I love this detail. When you talk to a former DJ, they never shut up. Dawn, I love this detail. Now, that original piece of vinyl that Bob sent you, that of course... Still have it. Still have it. So, can I see it?

Like, is it... They say you can't take it with you. I'm taking it with me. Like, is it somewhere locked away or you can't grab it, I guess? It's downstairs. I brought... There's a wonderful webcast, OK? And if you don't mind my plugging somebody else's webcast. Okay. Um, and if you don't mind my plugging somebody else's webcast,

it's called the Rye Guys. R-Y-G-U-Y-S. And if you just Google Rye Guys, Donna Halper. I did the quiz around the 50th anniversary, the first one, and I brought out my original Rush album with the red logo. It was supposed to be red. In the States it turned into kind of like an ugly fuchsia because of a printing error. But yeah, I have that original record. I have it downstairs in my archives. I make sure it is safe and healthy. I look at it every now and then, and I think about how that one record changed my life. Because I got to be honest with you, Mr. Mike, I really do. I don't smoke, I don't drink, I don't do drugs. The people at WMMS at the time did all those things. It was the era.

It was, you know, those were the times. But I think that when they hired me, they were expecting a hippie chick. That is not what they got. They got someone who teaches Sunday school. They got somebody who got into rock and roll radio for the music, not for the lifestyle. I was not popular at that station. In fact, I'm sure a lot of people there thought I was really rude and standoffish. Truth be told, I'd never been away from home.

Okay? I was a working class kid and I get this great opportunity to go to WMMS and be the music director. I was terrified. I was terrified. Okay? And so yeah, I did the job. Maybe I did it well. Maybe I didn't do it well. But I wasn't really comfortable there until I discovered Rush. And suddenly I became everyone's new best friend. Everybody

wanted to meet me. Everybody wanted to know me. I was okay with everyone. And I hadn't changed, but the circumstances certainly did. And yeah, I owe Rush a lot because not only did they give me a 50-year friendship, but they also were fine about who I was. I've said this many times before okay over the years Whenever I would go backstage They would always make sure there was like coffee and fruit and muffins And you know stuff that Donna will like because they knew I didn't do any of that other stuff And I'll be honest with you when Getty came out with his book and it talked about all this like, you know, partying, they never saw it.

They kept it away from me. Okay? Maybe because I'm older, maybe because I was sort of like a mom figure in the early years. They used to joke that I was kind of like a big sister to the band, but then they didn't need a big sister anymore. And we just became friends. But out of respect for who I was and what I did and, you know, this and that, I mean, they also never mocked my religious beliefs.

They knew I was Jewish. Geddy is Jewish culturally, but he's famously non-religious, okay? But they never made fun of oh, you know You keep kosher and you know stop and never Who I was was always fine with them You know if you choose not to decide you still have made a choice. I made a choice I never imposed it on anyone and they never imposed theirs on me So yeah, they changed my life

and I will always be profoundly grateful. Did I champion their career? Yes, I did. Did I get other stations to play them? Yes, I did. Did I fight for them to get a star on the Walk of Fame? Yes, I did. You know, et cetera, et cetera.

But you know what? That's friendship. Did they do the same for me? Did they always remember me? Did they always remember me? Did they always say thank you? Did they give me shout outs years later when they didn't even have to? Yes, they did. They changed my life and I will always be profoundly grateful. Oh, love this Donna. Now you describe yourself. Today you'd be, it's in vogue I'd say to be what we call straight edge. I have a guest, a local punk goddess in this country,

Biff Naked, who's going to visit me in April and she's proudly straight edge, you know. No drinking, no smoking, no drugging. This is never done any of it. Nope, not interested. Thank you very much. Whatever you do, fine with me. You do you. Just don't impose you on me and I won't impose me on you. But let's respect each other. And the guys in Rush always respected me and I always respected them. End of story. And how many DJs, like how many DJs were snorting lines of coke in the... That's the problem. That's the... I saw a lot of stuff.

And I got really like excoriated. I got mocked. I got bullied. I also got sexually harassed. Thank you very much. Those were difficult times. Okay. But here again, you navigate, you know, the best you can.

You play the cards you're dealt. And I did the best I could. Was I perfect? Does everybody like me? No. I'm sure there's people out there that are like, oh, God, you're having her on the show? I ain't listening. And then there's other people that are like, oh, my God, I love her. So you just never know. But all you can do is be true to yourself. And that's all I've tried to be in my life. Okay, I'm 77. I'm still adorable, but I'm 77. And all I've ever tried to do is live up to the ideals that I was raised with, which is to be ethical, to be honorable,

to try to make a difference in the world, and to try to be kind. Was I always those things? Nope, because I'm human. But those were the ideals my parents raised me with, and I tried to live them the best way I could. And yeah, I mean I knew people that were straight-edged back then but it wasn't very common. And there was a lot of conformity and there was a lot of mockery if you didn't conform, which was kind of ironic. On the one hand it's like I was too straight for the hippies and too hip for the straight people, you know, I just didn't fit in.

And so I felt really lonely in Cleveland until I met Rush. And you know, it just, it's amazing how certain things just change your life. Do I have any regrets? No, I could not have played it any differently. I mean, to this day, I'm very happy about the fact that I do remember the 60s and I do remember a whole bunch of the stuff that happened. Some of it was not very pleasant. Some of it was absolutely wonderful and I will take it with me wherever I go. Do I wish things had been different in terms of getting

equal pay? Well yes because an awful lot of women back then did not get equal pay. Did I enjoy being sexually harassed? Why, no, I did not. But again, looking at it as working class kid from Dorchester, Massachusetts, nothing was ever expected of kids from my neighborhood. You know, most of them either dropped out or joined the military. I ended up with two master's degrees. I got my PhD when I was 64.

Every time people say to me like, well, you'll never, I'm like, well, we'll see about that. So I don't even know what my next act is because I ain't done yet, okay? The truth is all the things that have happened over the years, both the good and the bad, have shaped who I am. Do I wish there were certain things that had been different? Of course, okay? Like I said, equal pay would have been nice. I was a music director. Men who were music directors got promoted to program director and everybody said, oh my God, they've had such great experience as music directors. Women who were music directors did not get promoted and people would say, oh, she's ever been as a music director. So I worked with some really amazing music directors,

including a Canadian that you probably know, Rosalie Trombley. OK, I bowed before her. She was an amazing music director. And if you don't believe me, ask the Guess Who, ask Bob Seeger, ask all the people whose records she championed. Because while the music director wasn't the decision-maker, we had an awful lot of ability to be gatekeepers, to get stuff to the right people, to get stuff on the air, to break new songs. It

was a wonderful life. So like I said, do I wish I got promoted? Absolutely. Do I wish I got equaled? Well, yes I do. Do I wish that I were treated with more respect and that I was living in a time when the fact that I was what you may call straight-edge was okay? Yeah, it would have been nice. But like I said, overall, boy howdy, did I meet some amazing people. Did I get to tell some amazing stories? Did I get to help some artists like go on to become famous and others that never did but at least I know. I made a difference in a lot of people's lives and the people whose lives I didn't make

a difference in, at least I know I tried. Does that make any sense? Yeah, absolutely. In fact, before we say goodbye, I'm going to ask you a few questions about yourself, but just to put a bow on the Rush chapter here. So that initial pressing of the Rush debut album you have, I think I read they only made 3,500 copies in that initial run. That is with Moon Records, which of course is their... And I've got mine, yep. So one of those sent me, yep.

And it sounds from your story there, it sounds like they had to ship a whole whack of those 3,500 to Cleveland, Ohio. Absolutely! Why, yes they did. Yes they did. And you, you know, once in their surprise. Exactly. And I was reading about the concert on August 26, 1974. WMMS sponsored one of their Russia's first performances in the USA in Cleveland. So it must have been a proud night for you. Before they played at the Allen Theater, they played at the Agora. I was there in December of 1974

when they played at the Agora and Getty did a shout out to me. And again, he didn't have to do it, but he did. And these are guys that appreciate what people have done for them over the years. I mean, look at their crew. I mean, the road crew was like some of the same people that were with them for like 40 years, and their kids became members of the crew, and etc., and etc.

So, so yeah, I mean, in the immortal words of the Grateful Dead, lately it occurs to me what a long strange trip it's been. And yeah, a lot of those moon records ended up in Cleveland, but from what Vic and Ray were telling me, they didn't seem like they were going anywhere. So hey, might as well get sold in Cleveland. Why not? And then so popular in Cleveland that they had to re-release it by Mercury Records there.

Absolutely. And that's when you get the- And that's how it ended up in the ugly fuchsia, because printing error. It was supposed to be the same color, okay? The main differences. And I did this on the Ry Guys quiz, so you can like see all of this. I hold up both records, this, that. The Canadian version, it's red.

It's got a lot of people to be thanked on the back who were instrumental in the Canadian history of the band. And the American version, it's ugly fuchsia. It has some of those people and it says, thank you to me for getting the ball rolling. I have that exact quote. No, they were gonna do that. getting the ball rolling. I have that exact quote. No, they were going to do that. I was just shocked.

I was surprised. A special thank you to Donna Helper for getting the ball rolling. Yeah, amazing. Indeed. Amazing. OK, now you mentioned you're friendly with the members of the band. Now, I kind of ironically, I think Neil Peart doesn't even play on Working Man. So he's not.

He does not. And I did meet Rutsi when they first came here. Rutsi was still with the band. And the truth is, and I did not know this at the time, it really was Rutsi who had approached Roper, who had approached a whole bunch of the local Canadian music critics, the record promoters, you know, come see our band. While Rutsi may not have had the songwriting chops, while he might not have been in the direction that Alex and Getty wanted to go, I think Working Man and some of the other songs on that first record show flashes of brilliance.

I think had Rutsey been healthier, he probably would have latched on with any one of a number of good bands and probably gone on to have a pretty good career as a rock and roll drummer. But they really needed someone with songwriting chops, okay? Because Getty and Alex did not feel confident at that time of their ability to write songs. They needed Neil. They didn't know they needed Neil, but they needed Neil, you know? And ultimately, they found him. But I've been real clear with people that want to like trash that first album. You wouldn't have had the second if you didn't have the first. And that first record, no kidding, Rutsi did a commendable job as a drummer. He really

did. Okay, was he Neil? Nope, but they didn't need him to be at that point. He was exactly what they needed at the time and the shame of it is if he were around today his diabetes would have been well controlled on you know little finger stick you know you inject your little yeah he would have just gone on with his life but back then he was a kid he wasn't taking care of himself and you had to go to the hospital every time you really needed medication. So today the world is very, very different. I've got a ton of autoimmune diseases. I was born with them. Years ago it could have ended my career. Today it's like,

ho hump, here's the medication you take, now get back out there. And that's exactly what I did so to some degree I feel bad about Rutsi because he was a person kind of born too soon was he the drummer Rush needed no but was he the drummer Rush needed at the time absolutely may he rest in peace absolutely and it was John Rutsi's brother Bill who came up with the name Rush. Absolutely. Absolutely. Okay, so it's funny, there's a gentleman who's been on this program named Michael Williams, who was a VJ on Much Music for many, many years. And he's sure. Yeah,

you know him. He's from Cleveland. And yes, one of his favorite one of the quotes he dropped on this show, which has become like a something we often will repeat, it's become part of the FOTM lexicon is he said, no Cleveland, no Bowie. And then I was chatting the other day with Kevin Shea, who was a music rep with, yeah, where was he with Attic Records and some other places up here and MCA and I said nice It's no Cleveland no rush like the the fact is yeah, you needed Rutsi at the time, but you also needed Cleveland Indeed and while it is true that rush may indeed have played in other cities without Wmm s getting behind them because don't forget this is the era when rock radio

rules and I know that's a literative but it's true and You desperately needed airplay and if you could get on, you know, whether it was chum FM Whether it was chome in Montreal wherever you could get that airplay. God bless you. That's what you needed. And down in the States, you needed to be on the big album rockers in Philadelphia, in St. Louis, in Cleveland, in Boston. Interestingly enough, Boston never played Rush.

WBCN was the big album rocker. The guys over there hated Rush, never played them. Now they retroactively are like, oh yeah, we always play a little bit of retcon going on there. Sure, we always played them. And I'm like, sadly, no. But never mind. But the fact is that in the Midwest, they needed to get a station behind them.

And WMMS was big. It was influential. People looked to us. That is a demonstrable fact. Okay. That isn't just like Donna talking. Okay. There were other stations that were influential. Absolutely. But getting WMMS behind

you? Oh, I mean, we brought records back from the dead. Dream On by Aerosmith, for example. There were records that had like died a painful death. And we started playing them. boom, they start becoming popular all over again. So that was the power that radio had back then. That was the power particularly that album rock had and it was such a privilege to be part of that. Did the internet kill the radio star? Yes and no. The truth is, times change.

I mean, let's be honest. And in the old days, I mean, I'm a media historian. I'm the author of six books, many articles, widely quoted, etc. and etc. So when radio came along, circa 1919, 1920, in three cities in the states and one up in Canada, when it came along, everyone was like, oh my God, this is amazing, this is magical, we've never seen anything like it. And then by 1927 along came talking pictures, movies, and all the newspapers. Oh, this is going to be it for radio. Why would you want to like listen to radio when you can see a movie with dialogue? And that didn't happen.

Radio still was popular. And then along came television. And oh my God, television's going to kill radio. It's going to be all over. What ends up happening? The late, great Neil Postman, my cultural hero. If you read one book in your lifetime, read Neil Postman's book, Amusing Ourselves to Death.

It was written in 85, so some of the references are kind of old but he talks about how television turned everything into entertainment and showmanship, politics, religion. I mean it explains Trump, it explains you know Rob Ford, it explains a whole bunch of people that would have been buffoons if it weren't for television. Donna, what's your point? Neil Postman said that media are not a zero-sum game. When a new medium comes along, it changes all the other media, but it doesn't eradicate them. It just, like, changes the landscape. So I think that's what happened. Did the internet eradicate television? No. Movies? No. Radio?

No. But it certainly changed everything and as people's expectations sped up, it made it harder and harder and harder to get people to focus on any one thing. So we're living in a very different society today. People ask me all the time, could you discover Rush today? Oh, I don't know if I could because radio doesn't have the singular power that it used to. So now you got to really appeal to a whole bunch of different audiences. So did the internet contribute to the problems radio is having? Yeah sure, but those problems are much bigger, much deeper, and probably would take an entire broadcast for you and me to really have a conversation

about it. So my answer is sort of like a not entirely. You mentioned earlier in this conversation you mentioned Chum FM and it's funny just speaking of Bob Roper so we had a in that same episode where we talked about you playing Working Man in Cleveland we talked about signing a band here in Toronto called Blue Rodeo. And yeah, you know Blue Rodeo. And he talked about how they were trying to get airplay and then the only station in town

that was playing the first single, which was called Outskirts was Chum FM. And it was primarily because Ingrid Schumacher was a DJ there and she was married to the drummer for Blue Rodeo, how convenient. But Ingrid Schumacher was a DJ there, and she was married to the drummer for Blue Rodeo. How convenient. But Ingrid Schumacher's been in the basement here, and I had a great conversation with her, and we talked about her 40 years at Chum FM,

and she was there in the late 70s, when there weren't, I'm trying to name another, women DJs, I'm not talking traffic reporters, and I'm talking about actual DJs in Toronto Radio. There were very few of them. I cannot tell you how many places I went or I was told, nope, we don't want women on the air. Well, that's where I'm going with you, Donna, because you're, you're on the air at some point, they let you on the air at WMMS, right? Like you weren't just the music director. I was on the air at my college radio station. I was the first woman radio announcer

at my college radio station and somehow the Republic did not fall, okay? It took me four years to persuade people that women could be on the air and it would be okay. I had a lot of fans, I still have some of my fan mail. I had a lot of listeners. After that, I couldn't get anyone to hire me no matter what. I was a freelance writer. I got a degree in teaching because the rent had to be paid.

But I was fighting for a job in radio. I finally got one at a small AM station not too far from where I lived in 1973 and that's where John Gorman, the program director of WMMS, who was from Boston and he was in Boston visiting relatives and he heard me on this little AM station and he evidently liked what he heard because he hired me without ever really having met me and it Ended up with my giving up tenure in the Boston Public Schools walking away from like a stable gig Because it wasn't where my heart was I had been fighting for five years To finally get a chance in radio.

And when I got that chance, you know, like, well, you see a chance, take it. And that's exactly what I did. I saw a chance. I took it. It was tough. It was challenging. It was scary. But I had to do it.

I had to follow my heart. And I went on to have a four decades long career. I was on the air in a whole bunch of different cities. And then last year I was inducted into the Massachusetts Broadcasters Hall of Fame and I won the Pioneer Broadcaster Award and I'm the first woman to ever win it. So yeah, I was one of the few women every place I worked. At WMMS, we had another, we had Debbie Allman, and then we had Betty Corbin. But yeah, on AM, highly unusual to see women announcers, and very few women news people. The 70s are still a very transitional era, where a lot of people don't want us there. And it's not really going to be till the 80s and 90s when you really start seeing that

change. So, yeah, those of us who were the pioneers, we endured the BS, but we opened the doors. And I'm glad that people were able to walk through. Went through a lot of stuff, but like I said, I wouldn't trade the experiences for anything. But what was it exactly? Was it because they're looking for somebody with a really deep voice and simply women didn't sound like that?

What was it that no program director wanted to put a woman on the air? Always ask a media historian, and funny, I know a media historian. Hi. So, once upon upon in a kingdom far away, the early 1920s, the microphones distorted the voice. So, if you were even a guy, if you were on the air and you were using one of these old carbon microphones,

it made your voice sound like a chipmunk unless you had a really deep voice. And so it became a custom that announcers were supposed to have a really deep voice. Now they fixed the microphones later in the decade. It didn't matter. The custom was already set in place. People had gotten accustomed to hearing big deep voices and for decades the myth was that announcers needed to have a big deep voice. There were exceptions. There were people that broke through and did not have a big deep voice. There were exceptions. There were people that broke through and did not have a big deep voice. But I'm saying that became the norm. And sad to say it also was

the norm that announcers are supposed to be white. So white, male, big deep voice for decades. And in the 60s that starts changing at album rock. You start getting some album rock stations where the program director is a guy and he wants a female on the air but he wants her to sound sexy. Okay, I did awful sounding sex. I'm sorry, I just I don't sound sexy. I mean I'm cute but sexy I don't know sexy. I mean, I'm cute, but sexy, I don't know. So, so yeah, they told women announcers you could be on the air if you sounded sexy. Gradually, they started just letting women announcers go on the air because the FCC said you had to. 1970, equal opportunity laws. So,

1970, equal opportunity laws. So this creates some resentment, but it also opens the door in the states and probably elsewhere for some women to finally get on the air. Are we any good? Probably not because we haven't had the opportunity. But by the 1980s, young, I think you can hear a lot of women on the air today, 1980s, 1990s, 2000s, they sound great. They sound personable. They sound like they're really good communicators because they were given the opportunity. But in the old days, yeah, myths, stereotypes, old customs about gender roles, old, I mean, I wrote an entire book about this.

It's called Invisible Stars, a Social History of Women in American Broadcasting, second edition still available from 2014, working on a third. The reality is, yeah, there were a lot of customs that sort of became cast in cement for no reason other than We've always done it this way, right? You know I got caught in the middle of that You know a lot of people think I'm using one of those old microphones that make you sound like a chipmunk But that's just that's just my voice. Okay, Donna. So hey I've been real worried about mine throughout this entire amazing. I still sound okay. Cause like I said,

I've been battling pneumonia for a month now and usually my voice lasts for about an hour, an hour and a half. And then I just start sounding awful. So I hope I'm not sounding awful. I'm pretty sure I pledged to keep this 30 minutes or less. And I just looked at the clock and and it's gonna be closer to 60, so I'm kind of a jerk for doing that. But let's wrap with a couple of things. One is-

Well, I hope I was interesting. I mean, I don't wanna bore your listeners. No, listen, all that matters is I'm thoroughly entertained with this conversation. I'm so glad we got to meet like this, but you were talking about the- I wish I could be down in your basement. I mean, just, I feel like rejected,

because you never invited me to be in your basement. Well, as we speak, I'll say so I okay, I was going to close with this. But right now, I am vicariously in your basement. Right? I am imagining theater. Radio is theater of the imagination. Yeah, but there's a imagination. I'm sitting in your basement and you're drinking the beverage of your choice. And I'm having having an ice coffee and we're enjoying muffins and we're just having a great time talking about the people we know in the industry. And again, for those who know, it's not like you're talking to me on the Danforth here. You're in Cambridge, Massachusetts, right?

Not actually in Quincy, which is about 20 minutes from Boston. Okay. And the reason I thought it was Cambridge. Cambridge is where I work. Yeah, because you're the... Quincy is where I live. So you're in Mass... you're in Massachusetts and you're the associate professor of communication and media studies for Lesley University and that sounds impressive to me. And they're trying to fire me. And they're trying to fire me. So why are they trying to fire you? Because I'm 77. Can they do that in America? Unfortunately, the university made the decision

that they needed to get rid of a bunch of people. And they picked about 29 of us. And interestingly enough, over 80% of us are over the age of 50. Now, I can't prove anything, but I find that interesting. Long story short, I do this and I'm worried, okay? Because I promise you I'm a really good professor. I'm entertaining, I know my stuff, and I'm adorable.

So what's not to like? But the truth is I'm 77, and I worry that when this act of my life ends, and I've been there 15 years, had fun, when this ends, when I can no longer teach media courses at Lesley, where am I going next? I don't know. I hope there will be people who will see my possibilities and see that I've still got a lot to offer and give me a chance. You know, like put me in coach, I'm ready to play. But this is a very insecure time for me.

I'm thrilled to be on your podcast. I'm thrilled to be on people's webcasts. I'm a cancer survivor. I'm thrilled to be alive. But I don't know what the next thing is. And that's very disconcerting for me. No, I know that feeling well, but I feel you've got several books left in you. I mean, we need perspective. So I mean, that takes time, right? You don't just pump those out while you're watching the ballgame.

Yeah, but you need money to do them. Okay? You need somebody to pay you for that. So, we shall see what the next thing is. I don't know what it is, but for now, I am just thrilled that you want me on your show. I hope I've been halfway interesting. I hope your audience liked what I did. And really, honest to God, every day I get up I'm like ah I'm still here my enemies will be so disappointed. I hope you're around for another you know another 50 or 60 years I think the world needs your perspective but before we say our goodbyes I'm gonna ask you because you were talking about the deep voice that were in vogue and then slowly new voices emerged and they were kind of

outliers and one outlier in this market was a guy who went by the Name Dave Mickey and Dave Mickey had this he talked really fast higher pitched he didn't sound like the traditional DJs that We think of in our head when you talk about it But Dave Mickey went on when he came back to chum FM So he went by the name David Marsden and And David Marsden would go to CFNY. And I know him. Okay. Okay. So I know him too. He's been in the basement. Love this guy. You know, this comes back to another Rush song called Spirit of Radio. CFNY was

the spirit. In the day with a friendly voice. So here in Boston, we had somebody like that. Okay. We had, in fact, he was my cultural hero He's on the cover of one of my books a guy by the name of arnie ginsburg And arnie didn't have a big deal In fact, like I mean and i'm listening to arnie who's like the number one dj in boston And everybody's saying to me you have to have a big deep voice Boston and everybody's saying to me you have to have a big deep voice. Arnie doesn't have a big deep voice.

Arnie got on the air completely accidentally one night. He was an engineer and like the next guy didn't show up and Arnie ended up on the air and people loved him. He sounded like every man and he was so unique, so unusual. He was just massive in Boston. And so yeah, I grew up listening to him and listening to all the people with the big deep voices. But whenever I'd listen to Arnie,

I'd always think, if Arnie can do it, I can do it. And I got to bow before him in the year 2004 when I met him at a conference. And I said to him, I'm gonna write a book about Boston radio And you're gonna be on the cover and I did and he was and he will always Be somebody that I looked up to and I admired when I was growing up because he was just an inspiration So yeah, it's probably good that the people that grew up in your market got to hear somebody like Vash.

I really think it's important, let a thousand flowers bloom. And that whole song by Rush, begin the day with a friendly voice. One of the things that broke their hearts was how radio turned into this mass appeal, cookie cutter, everything sounded the same and that friendly voice, that unique voice, that voice that you felt was talking to you, gone.

Replaced by voice tracking, replaced by machines. I'm sorry, there's some things machines can't do. The fact that you and I are having this conversation, maybe someday AI will have it for us. But boy howdy, am I glad that I'm alive to be on with you. It's a privilege. And the guys in the band, they understood because radio not only broke their careers, but radio was their best friend when they were growing up. It wasn't angry. It wasn't adversarial. It didn't call your rude names.

It was that friendly voice. And I, by the way, I'm delighted that when fan tunes did the cartoon version of Spirit of Radio, they turned me into a cartoon. David Marsden too. I am a cartoon, but there I was. You were there. You were there. David Marsden's in that cartoon that you're alluding to right there.

And I wonder, in your many, many years, because I know you were doing consulting work for radio stations. Oh yeah. I had a four decades long career in the industry. Yes, I did. Now, did you, uh, are you able to disclose like any stations in Toronto that you worked with? I basically worked for small and medium markets.

Okay. So yes, I had clients in Coburg. I had clients in Brockville. I mean, those were, that was my niche. Okay. I did not want to work the major markets. I figured they had the high price consultants that they could bring in.

I wanted to develop talent. I wanted to develop people that were like eager and excited to go into the industry. I wanted to break new music. And you could do that in the small and medium markets. So yeah, that was my niche for like 28 years and I had a tremendous amount of fun working at smalls and mediums all over North America into Puerto Rico into Alaska for heaven's sake. I mean Hawaii. I got to go to places I had never been and to develop talent some of whom went on to become

Huge in the industry and I never heard from them again, but it didn't matter Just being there at the beginning and being able to develop them was just so exciting Yeah, I had a lot of fun with it But yeah, I knew a lot of people in the industry in Toronto. Absolutely. I still keep in touch. I'm just wondering if you wasn't my niche. I was wondering if you what your awareness was of the spirit of radio CF and why here

in Toronto. Oh, absolutely. Yes. And as I said before, every time I came into the market and I came in a lot because you can't get to Cobra and you can't get to Brockville. I mean, come on. Where do you think you fly in? You know So I'm flying in to Toronto and I'm taking the time to visit some of my friends who are record promoters And I'm taking the time to visit the folks at SRO and you know this and that and

Then I'm just getting in my rental car, you know getting out there on the what the 401, you know just this and that. And then I'm just getting in my rental car and, you know, getting out there on the what? The 401, you know, just heading on out. And it was pretty exciting. It was just a lot of fun. And so, yeah, I was very aware of who was on the air. I was very aware of who the DJs were, who was doing what. But like I said, living through the changes in radio,

when radio went from being a best friend to being just this corporate, let's slam in all the commercials that we possibly can. Let's make everybody sound the same. Ew. Ew. I just broke my heart. Don, I love this chat. You better not go anywhere because we need this perspective and you were there, you're a historian, and we need you to be sharing this knowledge with everybody. Well, thank you for having me. It was like not what I expected. I'm very honored and I mean that that's not a humble brag. Okay, I take nothing for granted. Okay. I mean, honest to God, I've told this story before. I'll tell it again briefly. Okay.

My grandmother died of cancer. She was only 44 years old. My mother died of cancer. Every single woman in my family has died of cancer except for me and my sister. Every day is a gift. Every day is a blessing. Do I always like my life? Of course I don't. Do I wish things were different? Of course I do. But am I grateful to be alive when so many people in my family aren't? Honey, every day is an opportunity. And like I said, I never lose sight of that. Even on my worst day. It's good to be alive. And that brings us to the end of our 1460th show.

You can follow me on Twitter and Blue Sky. I'm at Toronto Mike. Much love to all who made this possible. That's Great Lakes Brewery, Palma Pasta, RecycleMyElectronics.ca, Raymond James Canada, the Toronto Maple Leafs baseball team, and Ridley Funeral Home.

See you tomorrow when Sean Clark returns to Toronto Mike. It's my UI check, ask, just come in, ah, where you been? Because everything is coming out rosy and gray Yeah, the wind is cold, but the snow is cold, it won't speed a day And your smile is fine, and it's just like like mine and it won't go away Cause everything is rosy and green I get up at seven a.m. and I go to work at night I got no time for living, yes I'm working all the time It seems to me I could live my life

I got a better man, I think I am I guess that's my bad company They call me the working man They call me the working man I guess that's what I am I'm talking about a clock in a day I'm saying, well, I'm not a school kid Oh, it seems to be one red ball There's nothing going down here

It seems to be a finale I'm not bigger than I think I am I guess that's why they call me The working man They call me the working man I guess that's what I am I guess that's right I'm gonna be the one to tell you I'm gonna be the one to tell you I'm gonna be the one to tell you I'm gonna be the one to tell you I'm gonna be the one to tell you

I'm gonna be the one to tell you I'm gonna be the one to tell you I'm gonna be the one to tell you I'm gonna be the one to tell you I'm gonna be the one to tell you I'm gonna be the one to tell you I'm gonna be the one to tell you I'm gonna be the one to tell you I'm gonna be a good boy So I'm gonna be a good boy So I'm gonna be a man, I'm gonna be a man I'm gonna be a man, I'm gonna be a man I'm gonna be a man, I'm gonna be a man

I'm gonna be a man, I'm gonna be a man I'm gonna be a man, I'm gonna be a man I'm gonna be a man, I'm gonna be a man I'm gonna be a man, I'm gonna be a man I'm gonna be a man, I'm gonna be a man I'm gonna be a man, I'm gonna be a man I'm gonna be a man, I'm gonna be a man I'm gonna be a man, I'm gonna be a man

I'm gonna be a man, I'm gonna be a man I'm gonna be a man, I'm gonna be a man I'm gonna be a man, I'm gonna go I need a seven- and I'm going to work at night Got no time for living yet as I'm working all the time It seems to me I've been in my life A lot better than I think I am I guess I'm smiling for me They call me the working man Well, they call me the working man

I guess I was worth a lie They call me the working man I guess I was worth a lie I can't just let it slide I'm gonna be a man Thanks for watching!