Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - Dr. Dianne Saxe: Toronto Mike'd #688

Episode Date: July 18, 2020

Mike chats with Ontario's last Environmental Commissioner Dr. Dianne Saxe about her father Morty Shulman, her career in environmental law, her years as Ontario's Environmental Commissioner, why that came to an end, and her excellent new Green Economy Heroes podcast.

Welcome to episode 688 of Toronto Mic'd, a weekly podcast about anything and everything. Proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, a fiercely independent craft brewery who believes in supporting communities, good times, and brewing amazing beer. Palma Pasta, enjoy the taste of fresh homemade Italian pasta and entrees from Palma Pasta in Mississauga and Oakville. Garbage Day. Weekly reminders for garbage, recycling and yard waste pickup. Visit GarbageDay.com slash Toronto Mike to sign up now. StickerU.com. Create custom stickers, labels, tattoos and decals for your home and your business The Keitner Group

They love helping buyers find their dream home Text TORONOMIKE to 59559 CDN Technologies They provide managed IT services to businesses throughout the GTA And Pumpkins After Dark They provide managed IT services to businesses throughout the GTA. And pumpkins after dark. Save 10% with the promo code TRONOMIKE. I'm Mike from tronomike.com and joining me is Ontario's last environmental commissioner,

the host of Green Economy Heroes, Dr. Diane Sachs. Thank you so much, Mike, for having me on your show. Let's just paint a little picture here. We're in your lovely backyard and it's a scorcher out there, but it's not bad back here. Well, this is one of the great mercies of trees. Mature trees absorb the sun, cool the air. I am so grateful for them. Even though the one we are actually sitting under is a Norway maple, which is a non-native. But I am grateful for its shade. So this is a Norwegian tree.

Well, it's called a Norway maple. I don't actually know where it comes from, but it's not native to Canada. Okay, because I'm thinking of the Beatles now. A Norwegian wood, right? A Beatles song. I'm going to start on an awkward note, which is to say that you are, you know, among the top 25 environmental lawyers in the world.

Like, do you get a certificate for that? Do they have like a plaque or something? Well, they wanted to sell me a plaque. Absolutely. And you said no dice. Correct. So we're going to talk, you know, in great depth about the great work you've done. And I can't wait to talk to you about Green Economy Heroes.

But if you're comfortable, and I mean, we're in this beautiful backyard. You're literally on a bench that swings. I mean, this is as comfy as it gets when it comes to recording podcasts. This is as good as it gets. If you're comfortable, I was hoping we could just start by chatting a little bit about your father. Are you comfortable with that? I am very proud of my father.

Now you have your headphones on. I'm going to play a few clips of your father just to set the stage. Your father, Morty Shulman. So I have the first one is just a little taste of a promo for the Sh. Your father, Morty Shulman. So I have, the first one is just a little taste of a promo for the Shulman file, which of course

was a City TV show. So let's hear that. Just a minute, I gotta give you some facts because you're so out in left field, it's crazy. Okay, Toronto,

now's your chance to take a shot at Morty for all the times he made you mad. How you get rid of them, chop off their heads or break them on the rack or whatever.

People should not be allowed to keep dogs, cats or other vermin around the city. That sells a sight that it'll put people to work here in Toronto. I think women should relax a little more and perhaps enjoy it a little more and not get so excited. Take a shot at Morty if you've got what it takes. Morty, if you've got what it takes. So as recently as this week, earlier this week, I had Peter Gross in my backyard studio. See, when you're Peter Gross, you have to come to me. When you're Dr. Diane Sacks, I'll make the trip to you. That's how it works.

And Peter worked with your father at City TV, and your father, the legend, Morty Shulman, can you just, well'll open up maybe if you could share a little bit before I play another couple of clips that have less bells in it, don't worry. Just share a little bit of what it was like to be Morty Shulman's daughter, if you don't mind. Well, my father was, you know, there were periods of time where he was very well known. I mean, mean, people could and did send letters that said Morton Shulman Canada, and they would arrive.

Wow. Particularly in the early 70s. Well, late 60s when he was fired by the conservative government of the day for telling truths they didn't want heard. And also associated with his time as an MPP and his time as a columnist and with his TV show. So there isn't a lot of oxygen left in the room when you grow up in that kind of family. But I decided when I think I was about five that I wanted to grow up to try to be like

him and I'm still working on it. Now you said fired, just for those who don't know, remind them or tell them, educate them, what was your father doing before he became a politician and a broadcaster and all these other things he did with his life? Tell us. Well, he was a general practitioner. He was a family doctor for nearly 50 years. And he also became a coroner. I think the first Jewish coroner in Toronto who was allowed to actually go on cases. And then he became the chief coroner and it was he loved that job um as much as i loved being commissioner and like me he wanted to do that for the rest of his life um and like me he persisted in telling truth to power that the conservative government did not like and when he went public not long before a provincial election to hold an inquest into a man who was burnt to death in a new fireproof hospital, they fired him. because we'll be talking about your role as Environment Commissioner of Ontario,

and there isn't one right now, which we're going to get to. We're definitely going to go there. And your father, similarly, sometimes the government in power doesn't want to hear the truth you're spewing. Yes, the role of telling truth to power is a very particular niche whose endurance depends on the people in power being willing to accept oversight and reproof. And what we've seen in Ontario is that some parties do, and some parties don't. I mean, no politician likes to be criticized, but some accept it unwillingly and some will not accept it. And your father, you know, refused, I guess, honorable man of integrity, like you're, you know, you're a woman of integrity yourself, we'll get to that, but he then partly, he then

became a politician, right? He was elected as MPP. Was that the High Park? Well, that's right. He was elected as an NDP, MPP for High Park, which is where he had his medical practice and where our childhood home was. And he represented that riding for two terms, which was while continuing his medical practice.

And so we hardly saw him. He was working all the time. Wow. And I'm going to play a short clip here again. I don't think the bell will show up in this one, but here's a little more, especially for guys. I missed the Schulman file. It was just before my time to be interested in such programming.

I was too busy, I think, at the time, watching Mr. Dress Up or something like that. But here's a little taste of it. Gee, I don't like these questions much. Well, nobody ever likes the questions on this program. There's a danger coming on here. Oh, sure. Of course.

What do you mean, of course? Because if it's your word against my word, one of us is a liar. But if you are the liar, you're going to send me to jail for a lot of years. Morton, I'm going to call you Morton. Okay, maybe call me worse. What are you doing running all over the world and all over the country trying to become leader of the conservative party when you should be at home looking after your job? You have such a nice way of phrasing questions morning i try to be gentle you've got to stop using that kind of language i won't stop you because it's true it is

not true you won't accept it's true but i've gone around them as just as you have i've come country to country and seen the waste and the law what we're doing is taking from the poor of can give the rich of haiti are you sitting there and telling me that the 4,000 workers that will be laid off in Sudbury and in Thompson, Manitoba, don't want to work? No, of course I'm not saying that. What I'm telling you is there are a hell of a lot of people in Toronto right now drawing unemployment insurance who don't want to band. They want to be television hosts or heads of the Ontario Federation of Labour or MPPs or heads of the Manufacturing Association or working for the CDL. But they don't want to pick tobacco. They don't want to pick apples. They don't want to wash dishes.

Oh man, I could just listen to those clips all day long. Me too. So what's it like? Because sadly he passed away I guess about 20 years ago now. That's right. What is it like for you as his daughter who admired him so to hear

these old clips? And i'm listening as like a wannabe broadcaster here just thinking like he's he said sounds like my cup of tea well uh he really was and he pioneered that kind of truth-telling interview where he people would come on to peddle their usual lies and because of the really detailed research they'd done ahead of time, they would get caught. And they would get caught on camera. And this is something that had never been seen before. In fact, when my eldest daughter was in Israel

many years ago as a teenager, she went to the Museum of Propaganda there. And they were featuring a clip of my dad on that show catching um an anti-semite lies on the show as an example of how to effectively counteract propaganda and they didn't know she it was her grandfather well that's as that's as crazy as uh me not at all realizing that you were morty shulman's daughter for the first few months we worked together. I had no idea. Well, it's not necessary.

It's not a necessary item. No. Well, it depends who you're talking to. On this show, it's a big deal. It's a big deal on this show for sure. If we're talking about this, I want to tell you one of my many favorite anecdotes about my dad. Oh, yes, please. So when my father was a newly elected MPP in the first few years,

there was no ombudsman in Ontario. And he became an unofficial ombudsman. So people from all over the province would call him for help and send him brown paper envelopes and other kinds of information, much as they had when he was coroner. So one of the pieces of information he received was that the newly opened Pickering nuclear plant had no effective security.

Wow, okay. So he went to a gun store and bought a BB gun dressed up to look like a machine gun. So it had big, fancy, scary-looking plastic housing, and inside there was a tiny little BB gun dressed up to look like a machine gun. So it had big, fancy, scary looking plastic housing. And inside there was a tiny little BB gun with no ammunition. Right. And he put it in a bag, put the bag over his shoulder and went out to the Pickering Nuclear Plant and asked for a tour. And they very happily gave him a very thorough tour of the place without anybody ever asking what was in the bag. Wow.

So the next sitting day, he took his bag into the legislature where also nobody asked what was in the bag. And then when question period came and he finally got his turn to ask his question, he stood up and asked the minister of the day what possible excuse he could give to the people of Ontario for the flagrant lack of security at the Pickering Nuclear Plant, which meant that someone could actually walk through that entire plant carrying R, and then he reached down and picked up his gun and leveled it at the Conservative backbenches. Oh, my God.

And, you know, pretended to sort of point it at all the entire series of Conservative backbenches and pretended to point it at the entire series of conservative back benches. At which point, my mother tells me, they hit the floor. The sergeant-at-arms woke up, because usually there isn't much for the sergeant-at-arms to do, firmly escorted my father from the chamber. Oh my God. And there has been greatly increased security at the nuclear plants ever since. Honestly, that's like out of a movie, as I visualized it in my head as you spoke. It's out of a film.

I'm just glad when your dad pulls that stunt in the legislature, nobody shoots him or anything. Well, today it would be different. But of course, he didn't have any bullets or pellets. And the sergeant at arms has a big stick or something. But the point was, the people at the plant had been trying to get security dealt with and nobody would. But my father being able to make this a piece of theater

drew it so firmly into public attention that the government had to act, and they did. But they did not love him for it. I'll bet, yeah. It's almost like a bit of a bulldog, almost. But yeah, tremendous. Yeah, so last clip, and then it's all going to be about you, Diana,

in any moment here. I'm just going to play the outro of the Schulman files because it's got a nice nostalgic vibe here. And I dislike that. Well, my final word is we're going to set up this bet and I'm going to win my $10,000 for Dr. Eisenbud and we're going to prove there's a hell of a lot of hoaxes and frauds in this world. Hope you enjoyed the show. Good night.

I'll give you my conditions right now. I'll fade that down. Now, Diane, did you... ...Sulman Files for this week. Now, we want to hear from you. Drop us a line here at City TV telling us what you think about tonight's topic. Did you, uh... downtown Toronto across from City Hall. The Sheraton Centre offers the finest restaurants and facilities for luxurious dining and accommodation. So I have... You probably don't need that part.

I have friends and clients... I wonder where that meal was. You get that meal before the show. Friends and clients worked for Moses Namier at City TV and Peter Gross will tell me he didn't so much as hire a broadcaster, but he cast personalities. It just seems like your dad would fit right in there

as kind of a larger-than-life personality. Well, Moses Neimer and my father actually met because they were both extras at the National Ballet Nutcracker. You know, there's these two extras. The celebrity ones. Yes. Of course, yes. And they were it.

Oh, that's funny. Oh, that's great. Yeah, it's great. So I guess. And I'd love to tell you one more anecdote. Yes, please. So there is now a very short street in Toronto called Morton Shulman Avenue, which is where the Forensic Sciences Centre is.

And at the dedication of that street, the chief coroner told me that he became a coroner because when he was a child, he saw Quincy, the TV show. And Quincy was an American remake of Wojack, which was a Canadian TV show based on my dad. You know what? My mind is blowing. We're going to need a cleanup aisle for, seriously, just bury me in those fun facts because I love hearing those.

But that is wild. Wojak, who everybody knows, even if you were too young to see Wojak, you know Wojak, like, based on your father. That's wild. Yeah, it was all his cases. Did you watch Wojak? Oh, absolutely. That's wild. Yeah, it was all his cases. Did you watch Wojak?

Oh, absolutely. But the CBC was so tight with its budget, they would only make it in black and white, and the American networks wouldn't buy it in black and white, so they remade it in color in the U.S. Wow, that's great. So your father is, safe to assume, an inspiration to you, and I'm wondering, because, of of course you're an environmental lawyer,

why did you choose environmental law? I feel like you could get mad rich with different other law specialties. I could be wrong here. You tell me. Well, I did start briefly as a tax lawyer, and I can assure you I would have made a lot more money as a tax lawyer. I liked tax. I liked the mathematics. I liked the enormous intellectual complexity of it. I did not like the social impact of it. So I made a rapid change in direction. Perhaps you could share some stories as an environmental

lawyer that brings us up to the moment that you're appointed Environmental Commissioner for Ontario, which is excellent. So I was an environmental and energy lawyer for 40 years before that. I started with the Ontario government after my brief fling as a tax lawyer. And I worked primarily on energy for the first six years. That was at a time after the initial oil price shock when Americans were shooting each other in the street over gasoline, and there was tremendous fear about what we were going to do when we ran out of oil and the economy was going to crash and so on and so forth.

So that was a time when, for the first time, the crash and so on and so forth. So that was a time when for the first time there was some real interest in energy conservation, renewable energy, solar energy, all sorts of things which seemed almost magical and distant at the time. And some real attention to electricity policy in ways that hadn't been before. In any event, I spent all in all 14 years in the Ontario government.

It took me 10 years to get an environmental law job, but I did eventually get one. And again, I loved it and planned to stay. And I had a wonderful boss at the Ministry of Environment for a number of years. And then he got sick. And then I had a cartoonishly awful boss. So after a year of absolutely dreading going to work every day, where the only time the office was happy was when the boss was away, it just wasn't worth it anymore. And really, really

reluctantly I left the public service. Went back to school. Got my PhD in environmental law and enforcement. Started a private practice at a downtown law firm. Which was really interesting. And they did teach me how to practice private sector law, which is very different from public sector law, but their values were not my values, which came to a head when someone I believed to have been from the mob tried to hire me.

So that was the end of that. Whoa, I feel like we're burying the lead here. Anyway, so I started my own practice uh in that room right there um you know i bought a one of those machines that was a fax machine and a printer and a copier and was bad at all of them right and uh and a small computer and started trying to practice law by myself. I was a woman alone in a house, which is, you know, a tough way to start. But I was very fortunate. My husband had a decent living, was prepared to pay the bills,

all the bills, for a year to let me start. And I had saved up enough money from my salary that I could at least pay the expenses, you know, buy that stupid machine and so on and so forth for a while and do without any income. And so we took a really deep breath and pulled our belt in

and slowly, slowly, eventually you get enough money to be able to have a part-time secretary and gradually it builds from there. Wow. So was gonna ask how that went i mean it sounds like uh tony soprano whoever it was that uh kind of did you a favor right like it sort of pushes you in a direction and and uh you know sometimes you know the world works in mysterious ways well it does and then i ran my own practice for 25 years and it was a great experience and much, much more satisfying, I think, than it would have been at a big firm. Because you felt like a pride of ownership, I'm sure. Well, for sure. Now, it also means there's

no backup. When I got cancer, that didn't, you can't take any days off. Well, you can take, you can take a few days off, but you can't take any weeks off. Um, no matter how sick you are when you've running your own firm and you've got clients and staff and bills to pay and so on. So that's, that certainly was different. I knew someone who got cancer, you know, sort of at the same stage that I did. And she was on a, she got six months paid leave, you know, that kind of thing. Well, it doesn't work that way. What was it?

Is this Saks Fax? I want to keep the name. Well, Saks Fax is my new name. It was the Saks Law Office. Nothing exciting about it. But yes, I ran my own practice for 25 years and I had wonderful clients. One of my best known cases was suing the brand owners for their fair share of the cost of running the blue box. They had ducked and avoided and cheated in a myriad of ways to the tune of about a quarter billion dollars over a little over a decade that

they managed to avoid paying to municipalities, which meant that municipalities and municipal taxpayers paid all that. And when things came to a head, I was hired to sue them. And I sued them for $115 million. And guess how much I got? My guess would be really low figure, like zero.

That would be a guess if those were Jeopardy. But I hope it's much more than that. How much did you get? $115 million. Oh, wow. See, it was one or the other. I bet on the wrong horse there. Tremendous.

And that was the year my husband was dying as well. So it was an exceptionally difficult year. But it was a wonderful case. And I was really proud to do it and the municipalities had been turned down by all the big firms because their clients were among

the group being sued and so I was glad to be chosen and I think they were lucky to have me and we got the best possible result for them. Did anyone ever approach you, write a screenplay? Because Erin Brockovich was a pretty big movie. I think we could get Julia Roberts to play Dr. Diane Sacks.

I'm sure that's going to happen. If you were American success story, I bet you it could happen. Anything can happen in the U.S., anything. That's tremendous. Before we get you as the environmental commissioner, because I am dying to know how that came about,

because when I envision it, you get a tap on the shoulder and it's like you're the chosen one. That's how I envision it, but I'm sure I don't know if your story will be as exciting as mine, but is there any other success stories you want to, you want to share with everybody? Oh, well, there were lots of, there were lots of cases. Gosh, in 40 years, you get time to do lots and lots of cases. I spent an enormous amount of time on contaminated sites and I remain outraged by the approach that has been taken. I think it's, but anyway, nothing else that I think people might know about companies and individuals with all

sorts of problems and looking for ways to find solutions to them. I was very fortunate because I had been a prosecutor first. I was pretty much a known quantity. It was, especially once I was on my own, it was very rare for people who were doing the wrong thing and wanted to keep doing it to approach me. And if they approached me, we didn't last past the first discussion. So I ended up with a really excellent self-selected set of clients. Yes, they screwed up, but they didn't do it intentionally and they were willing to figure out how to fix it. Because if they weren't willing to figure out how to fix it, I was not the lawyer they wanted. It sounds like you, you know, you had this moral code, if you will, like a sound ethics in your

practice. Well, I mean, why else practice law if you're not trying to make the world a better place? You know, some people do practice law without that as their primary motivation. I know, and I think it's outrageous. I think it's absolutely outrageous. But I think most of us went into law school hoping to help make the world a better place.

Yes, it gets crushed out of people. I mean, if I hadn't had a husband who was prepared to pay the bills for long enough for me to try to do that, I wouldn't have had that choice. So definitely I recognize that that was a privilege. And I came out of school without a big debt to carry. You know, that's another privilege that allowed me to make choices that other people didn't have.

But yeah, it seems pretty clear to me that that's what law is for. I hope you're enjoying my interview of Dr. Diane Sachs. Hang in there, there's more stellar CanCon to come. I want to thank those who help fuel the real talk, especially our good friends at Great Lakes Brewery. Delicious, fresh craft beer brewed in southern Etobicoke. Much love to Palma Pasta, authentic Italian food that will leave you wondering why you waited so long to give it a try. palmapasta.com is where you want to go. Then click over to stickeru.com for stickers and such.

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If you want to download the garbage day app, or if you just want to sign up for the SMS notifications or email notifications, if you just want to sign up for the SMS notifications or email notifications, you get curbside collection notifications. And it's free, it's fun, and signing up makes you a good FOTM. I'll let Bruce take us back

to my conversation with Diane. Diane. If a tree falls in the forest Is anybody here? Anybody here? The forest falls Glad to hear it. Later I'm going to ask you a question I've heard you ask dozens of times on Green Economy Heroes.

We'll close with that question, so I'm not going to do that yet. I do want to hear the story of how you became Ontario's Environmental Commissioner. Well, after 40 years practicing law, I really started thinking, you know, is there something else? 25 years of dealing contaminated sites is a long time to deal with old gas stations and spilled chlorinated solvents. So I did look to see if there were other career paths that might suit me and my background and really didn't find anything so I settled down to say all right I'm really lucky to be where I am

and appreciate it enjoy it make the best of it and then shortly after my husband died, a dear friend in Calgary called me and gave me what for. So she had seen an ad for the environmental commissioner's position in the Calgary Herald. And she wanted me to apply. I mean, I just wasn't up to it. I mean, I just wasn't up to it. I had just come off the most horrible year, and I was beaten up and exhausted, and I just considered there was no prospect that I could get appointed because it requires unanimous consent by all parties.

And I was pretty sure that the conservatives would not consent, among other things, because at that point, the conservatives had a very active campaign attacking wind energy and wind turbines, and I was the president of the Windshare Energy Cooperative. Right. So I told her that this was not going to work. I mean, it was a waste of time and energy.

It just wouldn't happen. And she is persistent and persuasive. And so she, finally I agreed that I would make a few calls and see, you know, would I get support? You know, you'd want to have support from NGOs and business and different kinds of businesses and from the legal profession as well as from the political world. I mean, was that kind of support there?

I just thought that would be a pretty quick no, and much to my surprise, there was a lot of enthusiasm. Oh. So I filled out an application and thought that that would be the end of that. And then sometime later, I got a call for an interview, and I was interviewed by the Board of Internal Economy, essentially. So the Speaker of the House chairs a committee with a representative

of each of the members. And they asked me about my political history and basically they laughed at me because I've been a member of every party at least once. Wow. But, you know, because of personal connections with individuals or personal campaigns,

not any lasting connection to any particular party. And so they really laughed at that. And then nothing. So they said, well, we're going to call you for a second interview. And then for three months they didn't schedule the second interview. So this was a nightmare. I mean, do I set trial dates? Do I take new clients?

What do I do with the young lawyer who's on probation? I mean, I couldn't tell anybody, but neither could I make any commitments. You can't have a litigation practice where you can't set dates. Right. And they honestly didn't seem to care so three months go by with nothing and then all right then they wanted to see me in two days suddenly it's a yeah it's hurry up and wait and then suddenly it's an

emergency on their schedule right and then two days after that, I was on a really important teleconference with 10 other people on an important and urgent matter. And a representative of the Legislative Assembly insisted that I had to be interrupted at that moment, that I was going to be appointed on Monday, which was Rosh Hashanah, so I couldn't go to the legislature to be there for my appointment. And she needed to know in the next 30 seconds what start date I wanted. Wow, that's wild. Yeah.

Right? So, I mean... But they did choose you at some point in that meandering process there. They realized you were the woman for this job. Apparently. So just so we get some timelines here, what are we looking at here? 2015.

2015. Okay, so we have, is Kathleen Wynne our premier? Kathleen Wynne was our premier. As I say, all three parties had to consent. And I picked December 1st as as I was sitting there on the middle of that call without time to do any research of any kind, because I thought, December is usually a fairly quiet month, I could get to know my staff before we really get into the crunch, completely 100% missing the fact that the Paris Climate Conference was going to start on the 29th of November.

Oh, wow. Yeah, right. So I actually became commissioner in Paris, running from room, literally running from room to room at the Paris Climate Conference, being scared out of my mind. Because I, despite 40 years, and despite working in this area and being what I thought was an educated amateur, I had no idea how desperately serious the climate crisis was or how fast it was coming. Maybe before we have you leave that role, well, the role left you, I like to say,

but we'll talk about why you're not environmental commissioner right now. But maybe could you, is this now a good time maybe for you to, people are listening. I listen to Green Economy Heroes, so I'm a little ahead of the game here. But if you're not listening to Green Economy Heroes, by the way, you should pause this podcast right now. And in that podcatcher, you're currently listening to Toronto Mic'd On. Search for Green Economy Heroes by Dr. Diane Sachs and subscribe and become inspired. It's fantastic. It's a fantastic podcast.

Thank you, Mike. And we will talk more about that. But are we doing enough to combat this climate emergency? Oh, absolutely not. this climate emergency? Oh, absolutely not. We are on track for unimaginable destruction. The Philip Alston, the special rapporteur to the United Nations Human Rights Council,

put it as clearly as anyone I've heard. In the lifetime of today's children, by the end of this century, the best case now is widespread death and suffering and the worst case is humanity on the brink of extinction wow why why aren't the masses heeding this warning like it it doesn't feel we don't seem to have, as a society, I'm obviously not yourself excepted and many others who do, of course, understand the gravity of this situation,

but we're not acting like that's the case. We certainly are not. But then, it is challenging to ask people to take action on a big, slow, existential crisis that's going to affect everyone. Although it will. Although it will. And it also requires us to take the collective welfare ahead of our short-term convenience and to take really seriously what will happen to our children. So we know that an awful lot of people don't even save for their own retirement.

I mean, the number of people you see in surveys who are counting on winning the lottery for paying for their own retirement is astonishing. People don't maintain healthy habits for their own bodies that they have to live in. And no, we are not doing nearly enough. I mean, there are people, there are a lot of people doing incredible work. So we are seeing, you know, we are making some of the changes that we need, but we are hurtling towards the edge of the cliff faster and faster every year. And, I mean, look at the incredible searing heat that you cycled here in today. It was not like that when I was young. This is not normal. This is not what our trees are adapted for. This is not what our cities are

adapted for. This is not what human life evolved in. This is not what our agriculture is adapted for. This is a different world that we will not fit well in, which we are creating to our own harm. Because of laziness, selfishness, greed, and apathy. Can I throw another one in there, in the mix? Since we're cooking a stew there, I feel like I need to throw in, I feel that climate change has been politicized. And it seems like when somebody, and I'll use real examples,

but when somebody is a staunch, you know, Conservative Party, you know, member of the Conservative Party of Canada, they're far more likely to basically say that there is no climate emergency, that's hogwash, and just, you know, drive their, you know, gas guzzling SUV on the highway to happy times. I don't know. But it feels like it's been politicized.

Well, it has been politicized. And that is, to me, a deliberate act of sabotage for our future. deliberate act of sabotage for our future. We know that the fossil fuel industry is and has been the wealthiest, most powerful industry in human history, and there's a lot of evidence now how they've used that economic and political power to cast doubt and delay and misinformation, just as the tobacco companies did first. Tobacco companies invented the playbook, but the fossil fuel industries have taken it up

an order of magnitude, and they have done that to maximize their own profits, regardless of the consequences, even though they were among the first in the world to know what the consequences would be. One of the things I love about Green Economy Heroes is that you shine a light on people who, you know, are like yourself, are, you know, working towards, can you, I mean, I don't know, what word do I use? The remedy? The green economy. The green economy.

And it's very, it offers you hope and inspiration, and it makes you realize not everybody, you know, there are people out there actively working to reverse course here, which is good to hear. Well, one of the duties of a commissioner is to serve all the MPPs. And, of course, the MPPs come from all backgrounds and points of view and all parties. And so it was a, it did a lot of thinking to how to communicate respectfully with MPPs of all points of view about this issue, which, and others. issue and others. And so one of the things that I noticed and I understand and respect is that for many conservatives, a primary consideration is that we shouldn't be running up our children's

credit cards, that we shouldn't be spending more than we have, we shouldn't be running up deficits and debts, and that this is really primary for them. And I agree with that. We should not be spending on our children's credit cards. So thinking about who is showing the way to a green future that we can actually thrive in, I didn't think that those folks would be moved by hearing about people who work on the public dime or on charitable dollars, because there's lots of good people working on the public dime or on charitable dollars, but you can't run a whole society on

those. The money has to come from something else. And so I thought that they would be more willing to hear about green business leaders, people who are making a living running businesses that have to, you know, pay payroll and pay their debts. And so I set out to look for, well, who were the people doing that? And at first I thought, well, there wouldn't be very many. And I have been really delighted to find out how many people there are right across the country and how enormously variable they are. The number of different pathways, the number of different kinds of approaches and strengths that people are bringing to green businesses. And so I really look forward to talking to each of these people. And it also gives me something new to

listen for. So a couple of weeks ago, I was listening to a podcast about clean transportation across the country. And I happened to hear a man who runs the first zero carbon bus line in Canada. Well, I didn't know we had one of those. And we're having him on the podcast. So it's just very exciting to find out all these great people with the, and to hear why they do what they're doing and how they get away with it and what's making it work and where are they going from here. they're doing and how they get away with it and what's making it work and where are they going from here and i i do it because i mean yes i need the hope but when i started giving my climate talks

and i've given i don't know hundreds of them at this point people needed to be frightened people were not taking it seriously right now people who are paying attention know enough to be frightened. What I think they need most now is hope and a way to see a path for themselves and their children in a green economy. And so that's what I, that's what we're doing this podcast for. You know, you're leaning over backwards to help me with it.

I'm doing it for free. The people who participate are all doing it for free. Specifically to try to tell these stories and tell other people there are lots of not just ideas, real green businesses right now that we can support, that we can emulate, that maybe we can compete with, that we can look for jobs in, that we can buy things from, that we can design policies to suit.

There's a lot of people already doing the right work. We need to pay attention to them and support them and encourage them and build more like that because that's a path to a future where we don't destroy the world we depend on. What if somebody listening right now wants to help, you know, fund the project, you know, the costs associated with producing the podcast and getting it out there and spreading the word, there's got to be some overhead there. How can somebody, you know, help with that?

You've started a Patreon? I, yes, was eventually coaxed into starting a Patreon page. And yes, please do help me pay for the recording and production and hosting of this. It all does cost money. And we're doing this every week, which is an astonishingly large amount of work. And it's, the help would be very much appreciated.

We had our first Patreon supporter last week and I am very, very grateful. I hope I'm not putting a spot here. What is the address? It's patreon.com slash what is the rest of that, if they want to go straight to your Patreon page?

I think it's Green Economy Heroes. Green Economy Heroes, okay. And I know for sure there's a link to it on my page. So on my website, saxfax.com, we have a podcast page. And on the podcast page it does, there's a direct link to Patreon. And just to let people know, Saks has an E at the end, because there's a great baseball player who was also a great guest star on The Simpsons named Steve Saks, who does not have the E.

Yes, S-A-X-E-F-A-C-T-S, it was an immigration officer name. Right, and why did the Doug Ford... I need to know why the PC party got rid of your position. The environmental commissioner is no more. Why? Why questions are never susceptible of proof. But my best guess is this. When the Ford government took office, and in fact, even before they were sworn in, they started destroying Ontario's climate and environmental programs without complying with

the Environmental Bill of Rights and public consultation and so on. So I wrote a report. I was required by law to report to the legislature every year, a minimum of three reports, one on climate, one on environment, one on energy. And so I delivered my 2018 climate report in the fall of 2018. 2018. And in that report, I showed how successful and constructive the cap and trade program had been and the programs that it funded, how destructive the steps taken by the Ford government had been. And then I laid out options for, well, what do we do now? Because we still needed to do something about climate, and there are still things that could be done. So I was as upbeat and positive as I could possibly be to say, what we had was great. It is really, really bad that we've lost it. But there are other options, and this is how it could be. And I also documented how essential it was that we started getting

serious about preparing for what's coming, which the previous government had not been good at. And the etiquette of these things was I would deliver my report. The government of the day always got a chance to see the report ahead of time, and I would deliver my report. The government of the day always got a chance to see the report ahead of time and they would provide a letter with their responses, which we would publish together with our report. Under the Wynne government, the responses were always some version of, we thank the commissioner for her report, and then mostly some combination of, we did it already, or we don't need to do it, or we'll think about it.

Right. That's the normal response. But the Ford government response was, we don't take kindly to that criticism. And shortly after that, they introduced special legislation into the legislature to break my contract which had been unanimously approved by all members of the legislature because i my position was protected from interference so they had to bring in special legislation to break my contract

and abolish my office wow and then it took five months, four and a half months to actually drop the guillotine during which time they would not tell us when our office was being abolished. So, or whether the staff would get jobs or any of those things, it was, it was dealt with, with great cruelty. And of course, not just me, but also the children's advocate, especially necessary for Indigenous kids, and the French language commissioner. And I will say, to the great credit of my team, I had 29 people, and they all stayed,

and they worked their butts off, and we got two major documents out the very week our office was abolished. Our last energy conservation report and a footprint document for what is the carbon footprint of the average Ontarian, which is something the government had kept saying they were going to do and never did. We're the only ones who did. It's so incredibly disappointing that this

position, which I think was around for 25 years. 25 years. It was abolished in 2018. Well, in 2019. 20K, yes, right. So 2019, sorry. But yes, because I'd made it matter. I was hired to make the position matter. When I was hired, most people in the province didn't know we had an environmental commissioner, had not used our reports. We weren't material to most people. But by the time I was fired, we mattered. The OPSU did a poll, a public poll, and 64% of those polled

knew that Ontario would be worse off without us. I did reference earlier the politicization of, and I'm seeing it in the, you know, I see it in the U.S. right now with regards to wearing masks during a global pandemic. There seems to be a politicized, that seems to have been politicized as well. And climate change, which is science, essentially,

which doesn't care if you're a liberal NDP, Green Party, or a conservative. This is happening, and it's just extremely disappointing that the province of Ontario no longer has an environmental commissioner.

Regardless of who it is, the entire rule has been abolished. Extremely disappointing. There is an assistant auditor general now who has a title a little bit like mine, but he doesn't have the same role, and of course the public never hears from him. I am still outraged and heartbroken

at the destruction of my office and my mandate. We were doing substantial good for the people of Ontario, and people recognized it. Now there is very little effective response to the baffle gab and greenwashing and delaying of this government. And it's fiddling as Rome burns. And what we could do, I mean,

as people listening to the podcast, most of whom are, you know, living in Ontario, don't vote for a party that doesn't have a plan to tackle this climate crisis. Well, what I tell, what I ask everyone to do is three basic things. The first is to figure out your own carbon footprint and reduce it. I used to say 5% a year would be enough. It's not anymore. It's got to be more like seven and a half. But the good news is that on average, we're some of the most wasteful people in the entire world. And so we have enormous room to

reduce our carbon footprint and have better lives. The second thing we have to do is to get ready for what's coming. It's going to be hotter, wilder, wetter, weirder weather. If you have a basement, you've got to be thinking about that. If you own property near sea level, well, you've got to be thinking about that. We need to be prepared to look after ourselves and our families and our neighbors because there are going to be more disruptions. You've heard emergency services people say for years you should be self-contained in your house for at least three days with food, water, warmth,

because the systems we depend on are wonderful, but they're not magic, and they are susceptible to breakdown, and climate crisis will make that more common. And lots of people don't. My kids still say they're just going to come here, which is not a sufficient plan. And the third thing and the most important thing for people to do is to speak up.

Speak up to their political representatives, speak up to their friends and family, speak up in any circle in which they are a trusted voice because this is how we reach people. Simple, clear messages repeated often by a variety of trusted voices. Eleven magic words. Simple, clear messages

repeated often by a variety of trusted voices. And my guess is that everyone who's listening to this is a trusted voice for some people. So they can raise climate issues. There's so many different ways to do it. Talk about it. Get people involved. And one of the tremendous opportunities that we have now,

almost anybody can do, and it's the question of what we do with our money. Bill McKibben, founder of 350.org, wrote a fabulous article last September, September 2019, in the New Yorker, which I strongly recommend, called Money is the Oxygen Which Fuels the Fire of Global Warming. And anyone who's serious about this issue, I recommend that you read it, but if you don't have time to read it, the bottom line is it's time to go after the banks, the insurance companies, the pension funds. They are the ones who are fueling fossil fuel companies. They lend them money cheaply.

They invest enormous amounts of money in these companies and that allows them to continue to explore and dig up and sell the products which are destroying our world. And they've got lots of other things they can do with their money, which would be much more constructive. And they are much more vulnerable to public pressure. So, and one person can help make a difference on this. So, for example, pension funds. Pension funds have to be able to pay over 70 years, right?

People paying in now want to be able to get a pension when they're old. Well, if that money is going into fossil fuels, you're both destroying the world you want to live in and reducing the likelihood that you'll have good returns when you get there. So you should be protesting to your pension fund. And any one person can do it. So one of the leading cases in the world is a lawsuit brought by a young man named McVeigh in Australia, 23 years old, got a job with a municipality, had to start paying into their pension plan, and asked, is this pension plan doing a good job on climate risks? Are they reporting their climate risks? Are they investing accordingly? And they're not. So he's suing them. And the pension plan, of course,

tried to toss the case out of court. The court said, no, this is a legitimate case. They're allowing it to go. It's going to trial this year. It's going to be enormously important all the way in the world. And that's one person who then asked for help. So anybody out there who's paying into a pension or investing your own pension or receiving a pension, you have an opportunity to do something that really can change the conversation. And it's also more likely to mean that there will be money for you when you need that pension.

So if you want help on that, there's a wonderful NGO called SHIFT, S-H-I-F-T, and they specialize specifically in teaching people how to be effective in approaching your pension plan. Excellent information. And again, subscribe to Green Economy Heroes,

which is, and keep you educated and hosted by Dr. Diane Sachs here. And become a patron. I think I saw like $9 a month for this tier and help keep this going. It's really important. I think it's a very important podcast. Help keep it going.

Become a patron. I know Diane doesn't want to talk about this, but I'm going to do it on her behalf. Patreon.com slash Green Economy Heroes. There's a link on the podcast page, saxfacts.com, and sax is S-A-X-E, and facts is F-A-C-T-S. Saxfacts.com has a great podcast page. You can see previous guests, and you can subscribe to the podcast,

Green Economy Heroes, straight from there. It's excellent. Diane, just before I ask you the big question. And there's a teaser there, so you can hear a clip, which Mike chooses and makes from each of the conversations. One of the tougher decisions I make each week is, which one-minute clip from this 30-minute episode do I think would be a good teaser? But yes, and I've actually started sharing those on my Twitter account as well,

because I said, put in the effort. Why not? And it's a good way to promote the show. Now, I'm going to ask you the big question that you ask on every episode. But first, I'm actually going to play a little music. We're in the last five minutes here, but I'm going to play a little and I'm going to let this brew a bit. We're so comfortable in your beautiful backyard here. Too hot, but we have great trees around us to cool us down the birds they sing at the break of day start again i heard them say don't dwell on what has passed away or what is yet to be.

Yeah, the war, they will be fought again. The holy dove, she will be cut again Ring a bell that still can ring Forget your perfect offering There is a crack, a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in. Ring the bells that still can ring. Forget your perfect offering. There is a crack in everything.

That's how the light gets in. Diane, do you have hope? I walk a knife edge between hope and despair. The facts tend to push me towards despair. But then I'm a lawyer. By inclination, training, and experience, I'm a pessimist. But I have children, and I have grandchildren.

And I care about this beautiful world that we were given. And so hope, I've learned, isn't an attitude. It isn't an evaluation of the circumstances. Hope is an attitude, a determination to make things better as much as we can. It's a determination to ring the bells that still can ring. And that hope I have, which is why I'm still working on this. Thanks so much, Dr. Diane Sachs, for speaking with me today.

I don't think I've ever done an episode as important as this one, so thank you very much. Mike, I am so grateful for your help. You've taught me how to do this podcast. You've held my hand to do this podcast. You've held my hand every step of the way, and you have been as kind as anyone could possibly have been, and I am exceedingly grateful. Well, we're trying to save the world here, damn it.

You've got kids too. That's right. I've got a lot of kids, and that scenario that you described, that worst-case scenario, to me, that's not an acceptable outcome here. We need to reverse course. So thank you again. You can strike up the march.

There is no drone. Every heart, every heart to love will come. But like a refugee. will come, but like a refuge. Ring the bells that still can ring. Forget your perfect offering. There is a crack A crack In everything

That's how the light gets in Oh, oh, oh Ring a bell that still can ring Forget your perfect offering There is a crack, a crack in everything That's how the light gets in That's how the light gets in That's how the light gets in Thank you. And that brings us to the end of our 688th show. You can follow me on Twitter.

I'm at Toronto Mike. Diane is at EnviroLaw, but I recommend visiting her website, SaksFacts.com. Again, Saks is S-A-X-E. Facts is F-A-C-T-S.com. Our friends at Great Lakes Brewery are at Great Lakes Beer Palma Pasta is at Palma Pasta Sticker U is at Sticker U The Kytner Group are at The Kytner Group

Pumpkins After Dark are at Pumpkins Dark and Garbage Day are at GarbageDay.com slash Toronto Mike and CDN Technologies are at CDN Technologies. See you all next week. This podcast has been produced by TMDS and accelerated by Roam Phone.

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