Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - Ed Keenan: Toronto Mike'd #1338

Episode Date: October 5, 2023

In this 1338th episode of Toronto Mike'd, Mike chats with the Toronto Star's Ed Keenan about the report on John Tory by Toronto's Integrity Commissioner, the Blue Jays, Ontario Place, the recent deaths of two architectural giants, Toronto radio and more. Toronto Mike'd is proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, Palma Pasta, Pumpkins After Dark, Ridley Funeral Home, Electronic Products Recycling Association, Raymond James Canada and Moneris.

Welcome to episode 1338 of Toronto Mic'd. Proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery. A fiercely independent craft brewery who believes in supporting communities, good times, and brewing amazing beer. Order online for free local home delivery in the GTA. Palma Pasta. Enjoy the taste of fresh, homemade Italian pasta and entrees from Palma Pasta

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Pillars of the community since 1921 Today, returning to Toronto Mic Is the Toronto Stars Ed Keenan Hey, hey, hey Boo, boo, boo, boo, boo You need the horns here Welcome back Ed Good to see you man

How you doing? Good to see ya I'm doing well It is good to see you too and good to be back here you have many children that's why i opened this episode three three i have i think that's that's many children depends on the era and in today's world it's it's i i don't i've been on here so many times i don't know if i've used my material before but one observation was that when you have your first kid everybody says when are you going to get them a brother or sister like they need a sibling you can't have only one right and then when you have your second one when you have your third one though everybody's like what what three that's crazy why did you have three

so two seems to be everybody's estimation of the perfect number. I'm just shocked you have material. You're like a stand-up comic. You're working on bits and then you refine them and you keep them in your back pocket. Well, it's less that and more just, you know, there's the little anecdotes or things that I, because people will often say, three, that's a lot of kids. Now, my dad was one of eight.

You know, Jean Chrétien was the youngest of 14. It depends on, it didn't used to be considered a lot of kids now my dad was one of eight you know jean cretien was the youngest of 14 it's it depends on india it didn't used to be considered a lot no but they didn't use birth control back in the day but but that little observation about it is something i've said to people before and it suddenly occurred to me possibly i've said this on the show before i think we've we had multiple times i i only realized after the fact that we had long discussions due to your sponsorship over the pronunciation of pasta. Pasta, pasta, the Canadian-American thing, which we were mocked for in the U.S. Or back, I just learned this today when I chatted with my new friend Randy,

Backman, Bachman, Backman. It depended what country you were in. In the United States it was Bachman. In Canada it was Backman. Did you know that, Ed Keene? As a Canadian, does he say Backman. It depended what country you were in. In the United States, it was Bachman. In Canada, it was Backman. Did you know that, Ed Keenan? As a Canadian, does he say Backman? Yes. All right, there you go.

But he calls the band Bachman Turner Overdrive. So he literally said to me, I'm Randy Backman from Bachman Turner Overdrive. Isn't that wild? Yeah, my name is Edward Keenan. I'm the head of uh canon associates and that episode of toronto miked with randy backman will drop in your feed as a thanksgiving treat on monday morning so subscribe to toronto mic it's almost like i'm the opening act for randy

backman well jennifer holland is it the meat in that sandwich. Yeah, yeah. And Jennifer Hollett. I don't mind being on that lineup. That's actually pretty good, right? Pretty cool, yeah. Okay, I might work her into a question, a Toro versus the Walrus 20-year-old discussion here. But, okay, so why am I saying you have many children? I actually have more children than you, Ed.

There you go. But I was surprised. So I broke a lot of bones. Did you break bones as a kid or as a teen? No, I broke my ankle when I was in my 20s, like late 20s. And that was the first broken bone I'd ever had. And is that still your only? I broke my nose a couple times.

There's no bone in there. I had it broken a couple times in my 20s as well. Like you got in a fight? Yes, or people were punching me. Whether they would qualify as fights depends a lot on your interpretation. I'm not even surprised somebody punched you. I just have a punchable face. That's cartilage, so I don't think that qualifies.

But okay, so why am I talking? Because yesterday afternoon, the first child of mine to break a bone this that's a weird way to phrase it but until yesterday afternoon no child of mine had ever broken a bone yeah my youngest my grade two seven-year-old sweet morgan really broke she broke her arm in two places so there was a bend in her arm between the wrist and the elbow oh no

that's not something you want to see especially not from one of your kids you don't want to see it on anybody so they put her to sleep

so they could like reset it so they could like when the cask was on how did this happen how did she break was she playing

football or something I'm just picturing Morgan playing football but she was like not the monkey bars, but like the pull-up bars on the playground in her schoolyard. She was goofing around. And she's like a wannabe gymnast who does lots of crazy stunts. And one of the stunts must have gone very wrong.

So she falls and it breaks her arm in two places. That's why it had that crazy bend in it. And then they put her to sleep to reset. So anyway, she's in a cast now for uh six weeks but i was just like oh yeah that's the first time one of my kids broke a bone meanwhile like she's in grade two i broke my leg in grade two and i've been breaking bones ever since i don't know oh so you're no stranger to the uh cast clinic at the hospital i broke my wrist in march 2020 as recently as that like i thought yeah actually i even like was like shout out to dr lopez if you see him in the cast clinic at the hospital. I broke my wrist in March 2020, as recently as that. Like I thought, yeah. Actually, I even like was like,

shout out to Dr. Lopez. If you see him in the fracture clinic at St. Joe's, like I know these people. So my daughter is now in that system. The only one of my children so far to break a bone, knock on wood, is my son who actually had, it was just a hairline fracture

in one of his fingers, but it was from getting hit by a pitch in a baseball game. In one of his very first baseball games where there was like pitching at all, player pitching. Right. He got hit in the hand. It broke his thumb. And so then, you know, he had a cast on.

He was out for weeks. Oh, they do a cast for a thumb. When he came back in his first at-bat afterwards, he got hit by a pitch again and there was some guest coach who came out and was just like

because he was starting to cry and stuff you know he's 10 or 11 years old and the coach was like it doesn't hurt it's okay you don't get hurt

by playing pitch hit by a pitch and he was like the last pitch I saw broke my thumb right so is he did he stick with the sport?

I feel like that's... He played another couple of years. It was never... I mean, he likes playing baseball, but it was never one of his big things. He continued playing hockey, too, through his teenage years, but again, he wouldn't define himself as a hockey player.

It was just something he enjoyed doing. Well said, Ed Keene. That's why you're here. You deliver the goods. Okay, so for those who are new to this experience, so we do this every quarter. For those who don't know, a quarter is every three months.

Did you know that, Ed? So every three months is a quarter and then every three months you waltz over here for your lasagna. That's right. I got to keep it coming. So there is a frozen lasagna in my freezer for you, Ed. Don't leave here without it. That is courtesy of Palma Pasta. I know I'm feeding your family, so this is important.

In Canada, shouldn't it be Palma Pasta? You know what? I'm going to ask my new friend, Randy Backman, how he says it. That's one of those words I've never got quite right. But regardless of how you say it, palmapasta.com, go there, support the sponsors. It's delicious, right? You guys enjoy that lasagna, right? We do. It's very good. It's very good.

A lot of ground to cover. So I literally, like, I'm just going to prompt you. Yeah. I mean, the news cycle has aided us as well. There's stuff to talk about. Well, there's very timely stuff we're going to get to, but just a quick we talked about baseball and i'm here to tell you ed i'm curious if you agree with me or what you thought but i did not like the 2023 blue chase oh man yeah i i wrote about this this week uh you know i i write about sports a couple times a year right i'm a city

columnist of the toronto star and i i write sometimes about politics sometimes about life in the city and and part of that is i write kind of from a fan's perspective about the leafs or the blue jays or toronto fc you know often when something big is happening that that gets the city swept up in it and the the kind of playoff preview column i wrote which is was just like the theme of the column was my mood about this which is that like i so want to be hyped about it yeah and i actually like a lot of the individual components and players of this team like i i want to fall in love with them and yet from beginning to end and right through the playoffs it was just the most underwhelming, unexciting thing.

There was every opportunity where a dramatic moment that would be steered in your memory would come just like kind of... Yeah. Good pitching. Some decent hitters, but they just couldn't put any runs on the board. It's like, you know, I'm not the first to observe even like less than 24 hours of the game after

the game that, um, Vladdy Guerrero getting picked off at second base, uh, with the best hitter on the team at the plate and runners on second and third and two out. And then, and then an inning or two later,

uh, the base is loaded, uh, sort of hit into a double play, that those two things kind of typified the season, right? That was, and I feel like I had no emotional investment in the team despite being the kind of fan who desperately wants to have one.

So you and I feel exactly the same way. Do you remember like in, I don't know, 1992 and the Jays might be down 2-0, but coming up in the ninth inning, let's say it was like what is Whamco again? So White, Alomar, and Carter. Molitor. So you

knew you had the... Henderson. Those guys were coming up, right? Yes, that's right. That was Whamco or whatever we call it. Okay, but with Whamco, you knew Winfield. Winfield wants noise. You knew the Jays were coming back. I don't know how to explain this sentiment,

but they had fight in them. They came back late in games. They had what I call clutch hitting. I don't know if that really exists, but it felt like it existed for a younger Mike. This particular Jays game, when we were down 2-0 against Minnesota, both times actually, we might as well have been down 20-0. Like, I told my wife, we're mortgaging the home.

I'm putting all my money on the Minnesota Twins. You could, I mean, you don't even have to go back to the, like, touch-a-ball Joe years. Right. It's like, you think about that 2015-2016 team. You remember that sixth inning with the bat flip and all of that. I think it was a seven. That was a team.

Was it the seven? I'm here to fact check you. I think it was a seven. Either way, the drama of that was sort of like you knew at any moment they could just break the game back open. But never mind that. Last year, they fizzled in the playoffs yes but but what a regular season how much fun with the the barrio and the home run jacket and like you never

saw a group of players who looked like they were enjoying themselves so much hernandez and that was a team that could like score like an nfl football team like any given inning they could put a touchdown on the board right it was going to be like are they going to score 12 runs today are they going to score 14 oh look they're down by eight but don't count them out it's only the bottom of the eighth right right and i do you know you know sports is the toy department here and we have some real news to get to in a moment here i know people are like get to the real news but i i do uh i do i do want to say that the uh what was I going to say about the Blue Jays? Was I going to crap on them again? I suppose I was.

I'm curious what they call it. Was it about the pitching changes? Yeah, that's what it was. So the idea that you'd go into a game deciding that this pitcher is going to pitch four innings and then we're going to switch it up to force them to get the right lefties in the lineup and whatever.

To have this kind of analytics strategy and then have the actual game show you that Berrios is pitching a gem and he's, he's really dealing and he's four, four innings in, he's dealing and to see him pull for Kikuchi. Okay. This is to me the epitome of like, and I'm not trying to be any,

I'm not an anti analytics guy. Okay. I live in the real world. They use analytics and you try out for like high park select baseball okay like it's everywhere and it's important but you can't let the algorithm determine everything like i don't know how you feel but i'm i'm at a point now where like this is still for the fans right let him pitch he's four innings i don't know how many pitches he threw, but not that many. And he was pitching a gem and let's go. All year. All year.

He has gone deep in games. That's why they pay him the big money. They set up a whole pitching rotation based on guys who could go deep, who could take you through to the sixth inning. And when he's pitching a shutout, but also looking good,

never in trouble. I have a hard time understanding that. And it does seem like the kind of thing where you're outsmarting yourself. I've seen this at, like I coach and parent youth baseball, and there are strict pitch counts for youth baseball pitchers. And if you take a pitcher out of a game after a certain number of pitches, they can pitch again tomorrow. And at so many tournaments, I've seen like an ace pitcher in an elimination game, right, get you through three innings.

You're shutting out, you're up by two, and the coach says, oh, we've got to take that pitcher out so that they're available tomorrow right but guess what there's no tomorrow when you lose and that that's what happened to the blue jays here they're like right because even your best pitchers you just don't know how they're going to be throwing today right like it's like one of those things where and and we've all seen this like our favorite guys it's's like Jordan Romano comes out and shuts them down, or sometimes he gives up a couple home runs. It's like, does he have his best stuff?

It's hard to tell from the bullpen. And I feel like that with Kikuchi, you got a pitcher in there who is just like on top of his game, dominating the lineup. I know these guys have charts that show them like, oh, the third time through. Third time for sure. And all of that. But that early in the game, it just, I don't understand.

Right. But. It's no country for old men. He looks like a hero if it works, right? Like if Kikuchi comes in and pitches like four or five innings of like no hit baseball, they get to their closers. They put a couple runs on the board they actually win then then schneider and the front office look like analytics superstars for for

making the call nobody would make but when you make the call nobody would make and it turns out in retrospect to have been the wrong one then then it's the opposite of looking like a hero and that concludes jay's talk with edward keenan move over i'm so happy to talk about uh the jays because uh as much as i get to write once or twice about sports a year uh from a fan's perspective like nobody uh at the we have people to talk about those game decisions at the star so it's not my i don't get to do it in the paper so i'm happy to do it here okay anytime buddy anytime now toronto's integrity commissioner released a report today right here we go okay so have you read this report i have and i have already filed a column about wow okay so what time today was that released? So this is the report into the conduct of Mayor John Tory

that led him to resign from office, and it was released this morning. I'm not sure exactly what time it was released. I became aware of it around 9.30 or 10 a.m., read it immediately. So, yeah, so what do you want to know? Well, I want to know everything. So people out there listening can,

likely tomorrow morning it will be published because there's a new story up now, so they might hold my column, but they can go to thestar.com tomorrow and read it, especially if they're subscribers, they can access it. I'll read, well, yes, you should be a subscriber, everybody. So I'll read the headline, and then you've read this report,

and you've written about it for the Toronto Star. People are going to subscribe right away and read what you wrote there. But former Toronto Mayor John Tory violated the city's code of conduct by engaging in a personal relationship with a staffer and then taking part in council votes on the FIFA World Cup after that staffer left City Hall to work for a company helping to organize the event. It's more than a headline.

Toronto's integrity commits a long headline. I was going to say that. It's not a headline, everybody. I don't know where I pulled it from even. I'm terrible. But please help us understand this because what we knew, of course, was that John Tory had an inappropriate relationship with a City Hall staffer. You and i talked in great detail about that yeah and and now here's

the thing is that actually the headline the the integrity commissioner did find that he violated the code of conduct in two ways uh and exonerated him from having violated it in a variety of other ways uh the two ways he was found to have violated it are maybe the two most innocuous of the available, like I wouldn't call them charges, but like available accusations. So he investigated whether there was any sexual harassment involved or anything like that.

No, right? This was a welcomed and reciprocated relationship on both ends uh it was respectfully conducted by all accounts uh she wasn't shown any favoritism in the workplace uh they didn't improperly use any um like like she didn't go on any trips with him while this relationship was going on because actually it was during the pandemic uh so there was no trip there were no trips being taken um like during the shutdown phase of the pandemic um uh he he was shown or found by the integrity commissioner not to have used his influence to get her a job outside the office. He was found not to have put any kind

of pressure on her to leave. So the gist of what he was found to have done wrong in that respect, in respect to actually having the relationship, is the kind of thing that when you're conducting, not to steal thunder from my column that's being published tomorrow, but it's kind of the lead, is that these rules that govern interpersonal relationships at City Hall were not really written with a

clandestine extramarital affair in mind. Because what John Tory was found to not to have done wrong was like, not to have done wrong was like not tell the integrity commissioner about the affair as soon as it started and seek his advice on how to conduct it. And then also not going to his chief of staff in the mayor's office and spreading the word, hey, I'm cheating on my wife with this junior employee. Can you make sure that that doesn't disrupt things here at all um and he also didn't adequately uh document um the steps he would like like every step of their relationship to show that that they were separating the business and the

personal and all of that and it just seems like all three of those things like are contrary to the whole apparent concept of like a secret extramarital affair right right um if if you can't tell your closest friends because it might blow up your whole life and marriage you're probably not going to go and start chatting about it with the other office staff to say hey guys how can we make sure that this is on the up and up i mean which might be why it's ill-advised to engage in such a relationship in the first place. You know what Tony Soprano says, right? So then the other thing is the conflict of interest, right?

So here's the thing. Yeah, I'm more interested in this almost. Let me hear your thoughts on this. The junior staffer went on and got a job first at a hospital that was affiliated in its campaigns with MLse um and and fundraising and whatnot and then directly for maple leaf sports and entertainment um working on their uh world cup bid but not just bid but um like like hosting helping toronto host of it right right um so so john tory was found that she's working directly

for uh one of the main organizers and lobbyists of that that campaign that bid and at the time when the city and and mlsc are trying to negotiate like what the contract's going to look like for msla's involvement right and there's a vote at city council about about an update on that work and then another vote to to authorize city staff to to give mlse that contract and negotiate the details of it uh and john tory voted on both of those and the integrity commissioner found that given the fact that she was a part-time employee whose whose full-time employment would be contingent on sort of like them succeeding in this bid them actually getting the job um and he was uh had a very special relationship with her

ongoing off and on but but still off and on at that time after she left his office, that he should have declared a conflict of interest because the way it could have benefited her. Sure. Yeah, because it was a secret affair. Yeah, and not only that, but John Tory was, at the time, being paid $100,000 a year

to sit on the the trust that oversees the parent company one of the parent companies of mlse that direct financial interest in the outcome of the vote seems to me to be a far more direct and glaring right conflict of interest that somehow is is not even mentioned here. Interesting. That has always fascinated me. We talked about this in the past. He was making $100,000 a year from the Rogers Trust. I don't know the full name like you

do, but I call it the Rogers Trust. Meanwhile, MLSC is 37.5% owned by Rogers. The conflict is obvious? You work for the company that is dealing with the city, you're in a conflict of interest. And John Tory did frequently declare conflicts of interest.

He had a full, I was going to say full-time, but an ongoing relationship with the integrity commissioner to advise him on his potential corporate conflicts of interest and whatnot um and so he like absented himself from all kinds of votes that involved rogers and telecommunications in general because of that and somehow uh i don't know if it's because it's a minority like only a 37 and a half percent equal sort of like not a majority stake i don't know why mlsc was not considered a conflict for him but like yeah his conflict is that he helps run the parent company of the toronto maple leaves and that company stands to benefit uh if if maple leaf sports and entertainment

financially benefits right like i 100 and you make you make it sound like it's a i don't know 0.375 percent or something but no no it's a third more than a third well it's at the end it's uh right it's like a third of you know what it is it's it's it's half of three quarters i think that's right right so 37.5 is a huge chunk, Ed. And this is always, there are no bigger shareholders in that. No. Bell owns an equal stake. Bell and Rogers are the biggest ones.

Yeah, of course. That's right. So why is that? Do you have any idea why the integrity commissioner is more focused on the fact that this intimate relationship is working there? I don't know and and so you know as as these kinds kind of conflict of interest votes go the weird thing about the conflict of interest act john tory has already fired himself like that we're getting the judgment now but he's already administered the punishment and a lot of people reading this will think a lot of people at the time thought that punishment was

too harsh a lot of people are going to draw that have that conclusion reinforced uh as conflict of interest go if somebody were to bring a conflict of interest complaint as we know from the rob ford years uh the only punishment is like removal from office like there's no my major and minor in in the eyes of the law at this if there's a private complaint brought about a conflict of interest and it goes to an actual legal courtroom not the integrity commissioner but that said there are conflicts of interest where you are essentially self-dealing right you're funneling money to yourself or to your family members or your friends um you are awarding a contract to your own company or to your wife's company you're selling land to yourself like

these are what many of us would be considered like major conflicts of interest the fact that your ex-girlfriend or your like maybe know, off and on paramour. Your special friend. Works part-time for one of the companies involved. Seems like small potatoes in the size of this, scope of this, the whole project, right? And it seems weird. Unlikely that that would be a major consideration of John Tory's in how he'd vote on this thing.

However, like the overriding thing, and I think this is where John Tory resigned because he wants to be the kind of guy who is seen to believe in these rules. And I think on some level, he genuinely does believe in the value of this stuff. Like he believes it's his job as mayor to be Mr. Clean. and when he wasn't he wants to own up to that um accept responsibility for it and maybe slink off stage so that he doesn't have to be subject to ridicule but but i think in both the improper relationship and this improper vote like your job is to be above above suspicion There's like language in the preamble of the code of conduct that is quoted in the integrity commissioner's report.

And I don't have the language in front of me, but it's something to the extent that like, you should conduct your, arrange your public and private affairs in a way that withstands close scrutiny and inspires the confidence of the public, right? So anything you would rather keep secret is by definition something that doesn't really,

you don't want to withstand close scrutiny, right? Like it's like, these are both significant errors of judgment. However, I don't know that given he's the former mayor, there's a lot for us to rake over the coals. And now what some people out there want to know is if there are any scandalous, juicy details of the affair and all of that,

there are some details. I would say they're not particularly juicy and maybe a lot of us feel like those details are none of our business. I will say though that as illicit extramarital affairs go um this seems to have been a relatively tame one there's there's no um paper trail of texts or sex or anything like that uh the integrity commissioner notes that that according to all involved there was relative uh extremely limited physical contact

between the two over the extent of the relationship, that it was primarily a relationship in which they were beloved companions. They spent a lot of time watching sports on TV, sharing meals together, having long conversations about the boundaries of the relationship and um and the future that they both wanted and they both knew there was no future in this relationship

because she wanted to start a family and he wasn't at a stage in his life where that was something he could give her uh and so he was encouraging her to continue dating and when she when she eventually um started seriously dating some other person. That's when their relationship broke off. It's like really as it's as unsleazy as something as inherently sleazy as this could be. From the details we are

hearing here. Anyhow. Well, you know, I haven't read this report as you have and I'm processing in real time and they're this close to having a friendship ed and this is how yeah no i mean and that's seems like what i mean the way it's described and obviously both not obviously both of them but in this case both of them have an interest maybe given that that there's no aggrieved party here there's not either of them who feels embittered

by this relationship i think the aggrieved parties to the extent that there's no aggrieved party here. There's not either of them who feels embittered by this relationship. I think the aggrieved parties, to the extent that there is one, is John Tory's estranged wife, Barb Hackett. So they maybe have an interest in portraying their relationship a certain way or downplaying anything that would cause suspicion. So this is based on interviews with them and the evidence available to the commissioner but that said like what they're describing is basically that that working closely together during those pandemic years when she was here in a city uh

where she's not a native her family's all uh in a in a different city in a different part of ontario she's all alone his wife is living in florida his family part of Ontario. She's all alone. His wife is living in Florida. His family's living away. He's all alone. They work closely together on a lot of things, and they begin to rely on each other for emotional support, and then eventually that bleeds over into a special friendship, which at some point has a romantic element that that is uh

enough there um to to cause everybody concern and and and all of that but it doesn't seem like it was a uh a sort of like hitting the motels at lunchtime or anything like that there's not an adam jambroni type of situation where there's like a map of locations in City Hall where they have romped together or anything like that. This is much more like the character of John Tory we thought we knew before we learned about this. I still think back to those um four words strung together john tory sex scandal like is it all a dream i can't even was that true like john tory sex scandal i

did not see that coming in 2023 i i will say that um so so there's a timeline here and people can go read this on the city's website if they want to read about it in the Toronto Star or other outlets, obviously. But, like, so the timeline of this relationship is that they're working together, they begin having this relationship. His wife, Barb Hackett, finds out about it. They have what appears, at least in the cold prose of the integrity commissioner to to sort of come to an understanding about it where where he's going to break it off he runs the breakup text

the breakup email past uh ms hackett uh like and and also um and sort of like agrees to certain things right that they're going to continue working together. They both agree it would be unfair for her to like have to leave his employee. Like that would be unfair to her because of, you know, something John Tory did, all of that. So, you know, she didn't do anything wrong. And so, but he has to break it off, right? So he does by both accounts, but then this relationship is rekindled

at some point later and so then when his wife discovers that again she discovers it I don't recall I may have glossed over the details of how she discovered it might not be there

but it's not the sense where like he came and volunteered it necessarily that i will left with but uh she rediscovers it and confronts him again and basically they together retain amanda galbraith of navigator who used to be his communications director like uh she worked for him in his first term as an elected official, as an advisor to the two of them. And then also at Barb's insistence,

he tells his chief of staff, now, this is why I all wind up. And so that he can be sure that she's being treated fairly. They want to limit the physical like the time when they're in the same room together and all of that like she uh decides at that point uh independently that she'd like to seek employment elsewhere and begins looking for that but so it's it's sort of like that they had even thought of

issuing some kind of joint statement or talking to some other people, including the integrity commissioner, but he didn't want it to become a story. But he did tell Luke Robertson, his chief of staff, but Robertson came away from that meeting under the impression that it was not a physical relationship at all, that there was no sex involved. And when this story first broke, I was being very careful how I wrote about it. I still am not privy to any of those details,

and I don't even really want to be. But it's not clear to me if this is a sex scandal, like if the physical conduct they had does involve what you and I would call sex. You would think so, I mean, because that's most people's definition definition of cheating but it seems like the depiction of the relationship in the report and also from the way john tory talked about it and the way john tory staff behind the scenes were reacting to us uh you know on background and whatnot as it was coming out was that a lot of them were under the impression that this is basically like an emotional relationship that was inappropriate for a married man and maybe inappropriate for

two people who work together so closely but that like some some mayoral staffers were saying outright to reporters like my understanding is there was no sex and it maybe it's none of my business if there was or not, but it does make it all the weirder as sex scandals go. Yeah, one of the more bizarre sex scandals in politics. And again, I'm processing it in real time. And I joked earlier that they were this close to this being a very close friendship.

Inappropriate regardless, especially because he wields all the power. Like we got to remember the power imbalance here. He's the mayor of Toronto and he wields all the power like we gotta remember the power imbalance here he's the mayor of toronto and uh he wields all the power so this is an inappropriate relationship which he himself has called it but maybe not the sex scandal we were led to believe yeah i mean or or that people jump to the conclusion it must be i mean this is one of the things where in assessing this if i had never heard of this before i would read it and think okay this is shocking stuff about john tory there's going to be repercussions of that right but because the first whiff of this we all got was that somebody you know from the star had been looking into it contacted him to say hey did this relationship exist or not

like there was a point uh in late 2022 so three or four months before this came out but where they were essentially out of the closet socially right um they he went and visited her family in her hometown they were um seen out and about together at parties uh eating together in the distillery district they seemed to whatever extent their relationship was a romantic one they seemed to be no longer hiding it um and and yet and then they broke up shortly after that because she had found somebody you know know, closer to her own age. She wanted a family. Life stage and all of that.

Sure. And then it came out. But the first question, like, hey, did this relationship exist? We're just looking into it. He came and said he had held a press conference and resigned, like, an hour later, right? Right. So a lot of people's minds jump to the conclusion there must be a lot more to this thing.

Like, there must be dirty laundry in that basket that he doesn't want anybody looking at, right? Sure. If there is, it's not revealed in this report. If there's something more to it, it's not there. This report, our minds would have concocted something much more elaborately uh troublesome than what's in this report which is not to say that like this is good conduct or whatever that's that's the thing is that trying to evaluate it it's like this likely would have been worthy of a lot of attention and

debate at city council and all of that if he had tried to ride it out or if we'd never heard about it. It was just coming to light. As it is, I think a lot of people would have assumed that it was worse than it was. I think you're absolutely right on that. And again, the integrity commissioner did find that john tory violated the city's code of conduct so i mean on a couple of fronts so the relationship itself was a violation which tells you maybe they were more than just uh beer buddies or whatever having a great legs but the fifa world cup you know he didn't recuse himself and again you and i can talk about how there was a more

glaring conflict just right there but the two wrongs probably don't make a right, despite what some people think. So yeah, interesting. And I look forward to reading the full piece in the Toronto Star. And Ed, you're always good at making these complex things simple for us normies. So that seems to be your superpower. Well, I appreciate you saying that.

I'm the most normie of the normies. I got a very normie brain. So that's how it works. Well, that's a secret. By the way, I think you saying that. I'm the most normie of the normies. I got a very normie brain, so that's how it works. Well, that's a secret. By the way, I think you might enjoy this, but it depends how we take it. But on the live stream, I see from Lisbon, Portugal, is longtime listener Ian Service, who's watching you live on the live stream, which is live.torontomike.com. And his comment is, wow, Ed looks nothing like how I imagined him.

That's the comment. So I immediately, I guess you could take it two ways, but I always think when I hear a voice on the radio, this is especially true back in the day, like I'm going to pick on somebody like a John Donabee, but you hear a big voice. And then at some point you actually see them in real life. And forever you've been envisioning them as basically looking like Don Draper okay this is you know what i mean or christopher reeve in superman or something and

then you meet them and they're like ah they're just like just a guy or whatever so maybe ian if you hear us you can elaborate because i'm dying to know yeah no i mean i have i have uh i've been told that before but i've probably said it to a lot of people before too like but you're a good looking guy although i try not to say like, you look nothing like I thought you would look like because it can come across like, oh, I thought you were a handsome man. And it turns out you're-

That's how I interpret it. I thought you looked like Don Draper. Turns out you're more the Clark Kent than the Superman. But- No, he was good looking too. But I mean, I don't know what the guy who sounds like my voice or who looks like my voice looks like the the weird thing is that uh i get a lot of compliments on my radio voice or whatever well that's why you're on the radio and so i've come to are you still on the radio

we'll come back come back to that okay i've come to like think that, but I grew up and spent a lot of time thinking I talked like Kermit the Frog. I think like I have a denatalized kind of thing. And especially when I was younger, when I was like a teenager, I thought, oh, I've got this kind of weak, reedy voice. Welcome to the club. And then, oh, no, it actually works okay for broadcast. It works okay. I never got on the radio, unlike you.

But forever, I wouldn't dare talk into a microphone because I don't sound like John Donabee. I don't sound like Tom Rivers. You know what I mean? And it's like, oh, this high-pitched squeaky thing. But it turns out people seem to dig the authentic voice that you have. Anyways, Ed, you have a great voice. Well, just take care of this right now,

which is that Amanda Cupido, who's an FOTM, much like yourself, friend of Toronto Mike's, I root for her, but she was sadly removed of her duties at AM640, and they brought in a guy who was running the show at 1010, as you know, Mike Van Dixon. And then I actually literally, so just today

I got a PR email from Chorus, and they're like we're adding anna bylau sorry i was working on this when she came over bylaun bylaun like there's almost an n at the end of that thing right so okay anna bylaun this is irrelevant but that's how you say her name uh steve pakin and ben mulrooney all people i'm very friendly with particularly steve pakin and ben mulrooney are now new voices'm very friendly with, particularly Steve Paikin and Ben Mulroney, are now new voices you'll hear on 640. I'm curious if Ed Keenan's voice is still a voice we'll hear on 640 in the new Mike Ben Dixon era.

I imagine it will be in some capacity or another, like as a guest, if nothing else. But I don't know. I'm going to have a coffee with mike ben dixon at some point i mean uh i had been filling in uh for amanda or sorry alex pearson on a fairly regular basis as well as you know occasionally filling in in other places or chipping in in other places if bacon's eating your uh lunch here i can talk to him i can no no no no i mean the other the thing is is that either way

there's not going to be any hard feelings on my front like i uh so so i i had like a shift or two scheduled there that when mike uh got the job he he texted me to say i i didn't realize this i already booked somebody else for those spots let's have coffee soon and we haven't had that coffee soon i've been busy all of that right uh but but i haven't booked for anything else so i i don't know uh if he's changing directions or or whatever um but i think it's like he's free to do that and i actually am really busy right now like i'm doing a couple podcasts a week at the toronto star um under the this matters banner right now and you know like we're going to

continue to work out that podcasting strategy which scratches that broadcasting itch I have I mean my primary And you still have your quarterly appearances on Toronto Mike Yeah yeah I mean it's not like I lack for opportunities to

to to talk right so I you know I hope I'll to talk, right? So I hope I'll still be part of the picture in some way at 640, but we'll see. I do Jason Chapman, who was kind of my radio broadcasting fairy godmother

in some ways. He was one of the people who really pushed to bring me on at 10 10 when i first uh started doing guest appearances there and then joined panels and then had my own sunday night show um he was a real champion of me there uh when he went over to 640 uh and i had you know we talked about this on one of my first appearances i had sort of like trailed off at 10 10 partly because sunday nights no longer worked for me with my kids and everything. And it was like, there wasn't another slot. So it was just sort of like, but Jason called me and said, Hey,

are you interested in doing more guest hosting and stuff with us? And so I went over to 640 with him. And so he's now left and gone to the board of trade right and shortly after that like within a week i think or or two uh amanda also left and so they were two people who were real when i came back from the u.s were really keen on and they were my kind of fan club at the station uh i have great relationships with almost everybody else i've worked with there but you know i know, I just don't know. So, Keenan Keenan. Keenan Keenan. That could be like your byline.

That was the name of the column I wrote for my high school newspaper. Really? Because it's, I thought I just invented it. I was very proud of myself.

I didn't, I didn't come up with it. There was one of the editors there who was like, you're going to write a humor column? Let's call it Keenan Keenan. up with it. There was one of the editors there who was like, you're going to write a humor column? Let's call it Keen on Keenan. I like it. Okay, very good.

Now, I have some provincial stuff I want to ask you about, but I actually don't want to leave the city stuff quite yet. But you did, we mentioned Pagan. I guess I mentioned it because Pagan has some time on his hands right now and he's going to fill in for Kelly Cotrera on AM640. Much like yourself, Edward Keenan, Steve Pagan is a dear FOTM, so he's right with you on the Mount Rushmore there.

But I'm wondering, what are your thoughts, if any, on the fact that TVO... I can't remember the name of the union right now. You'll remind me. But there's a strike at TVO which is affecting Pekin. That might never end. Free up his time for this. It's been a while. It's been almost a couple of months

or something. And there's no end in sight. And I told Steve when he came over with John Michael McGrath that I wouldn't be, if I were Doug Ford and his party, I wouldn't be in a huge rush to settle this because TV or much like you at the Toronto star,

these are media bulldogs that are actually interested in these scandals, green belt and Ontario place, et cetera. And one less voice kind of, you know, telling the public that things are stinky here might benefit a premier like Doug Ford. So what are your thoughts on the strike? it ever end will uh like i don't have high hopes about this any thoughts

the thoughts i have are that i hope there's an end to it in sight soon i hope that the editorial staff there and the other staff are are adequately compensated, right? I mean, I think... CMG, just so I don't forget. It's TVO CMG that is on strike. Right. So, like, the thing is, is that the media business in the private sector has been having a tough go of it, revenue-wise, right? Mm-hmm. The people like TVO and CBC are insulated from that, right?

TVO more so, because they don't even sell advertising, right? These are civil servants who get paid on a civil servant pay scale. And it does seem to me like they are professionals who do a very good job, who manage the delicate balance between covering the province's issues while, while depending on the provincial government for their funding. Sure. They're very handily. And,

and like, I, I have nothing but respect for them and I think they need, they deserve to come out of this. Well, like I think it would, but you're right that maybe this conservative government in particular, but conservative governments in general, Pierre Polyev is making a lot of

hay right now about the prospect of defunding the CBC and all of that. Like among the conservative base, the idea of like punishing the pinko liberals who are perverting the news through our public broadcasters uh is resonates right like this is your tax dollars being spent to spread this propaganda um you know so like maybe it doesn't hurt them among those supporters but i i like i i think there's a moral obligation as an employer to treat these staff properly. Remember this little factoid. Doug Ford is well known

to listen to my moral instructions. Then Doug Ford is the first premier since TVO was, was it Bill Davis? Who the heck, whatever premier, no, Robards? Anyway, I'm going to run down all the premiers we've had.

But since TVO became, there's only been one premier that has not talked to TVO, and that is Doug Ford. Doug Ford has never been on the agenda or had any conversations with TVO since he was elected premier. So, I mean, that's a little clue that maybe Doug Ford isn't the greatest TVO fan. It does surprise me, though, right? Just because you'd think...

I haven't known Doug Ford to run away from opportunities to talk to the public. He has granted interviews to the toronto star at various points uh he certainly uh at 6 40 has foamed me directly to talk on the air uh sometimes while i've been hosting there at least once or twice like uh it would just seem like you'd want to reach those viewers, right? It was Bill Davis. I want to get my facts right.

It takes me a little longer sometimes, but Bill Davis announced the introduction of TVO in 1965. So Doug Ford, you know, I agree with you. You think he would, but you know, there's been many requests by the people at the agenda and at TVO to talk to Doug Ford over the past, how many years now? And he has declined. Of all the media figures

that you could think, really stick it to Doug Ford or really give him a hard time, I wouldn't have put Steve Paikin at the top of that list. He'd be nowhere near the top of that list. I believe some family members are very close. We could do another hour

on the Steve Paikin conflicts of interest, actually, if you have time. I joke about, yeah, he's got many declarations to make on all topics, including the Green Belt. But yeah, I'm with you. And he's a very, I'm a big fan of Steve Paikin, just like I'm a fan of yours. I think he's straight up the middle and he would have been great. But anyway, TVO strike ongoing. We wish these guys well. Paikin did tell me he's not taking any

strike pay so he's making sure the strike pay goes to those who weren't making uh he's on the sunshine list as you know so anyone so anybody can look it up but it's it's in the mid six figures yes that's right you know almost exactly okay so we talked about the uh about the former mayor john tory how is the new mayor olivia chow doing so far it's early but how is she doing so far um you know what i think uh she's getting her office set up and running and um like so far so good right it a lot of the things she big things she wants to do uh we're gonna know say in another year how much real progress she's made but a lot of the signs of progress are there including um like getting doug ford to he's not only do they not have a hostile relationship, they have an apparently warm and friendly relationship,

at least publicly, and reportedly privately too. But not only that, it's like she went into Queen's Park to ask him to join her for a new deal for Toronto. And she didn't come out with a signed check or anything, right? There was actually a small check announced right before that for further help with refugee settlement and all of that. But she went into that meeting to ask for help. And Doug Ford, who has built a career on saying that Toronto City Hall

is like the gravy train, that the NDP pinkos there have a spending problem, not a revenue problem, that taxes need to be cut and more efficiencies need to be found, came out and said, Toronto has a revenue problem. It needs a new deal. We, the provincial government,

have to be part of the solution and we're going to put on a task force together to make that happen. That existence of that task force doesn't mean doug ford's like caved to her but he was reading her talking points coming out of that and it was a 180 reversal from everything he's ever said about toronto city hall before and i feel like that in itself is a small achievement and then she's gone to ottawa and she was getting encouraging noises now finally from some members of the federal government about you know how they can work together to solve problems she's got some of her housing initiatives up off the ground uh

but but they're still at the stage where they're going to need like more approvals and whatnot and so you know as as the first steps here in the first few months to laying the groundwork for success the signs point to yes but um but like it will be a while before we start seeing it in concrete ways that are going to actually like measure on the scoreboard ultimately i think and am i correct that you can now get uh data on your uh mobile device in the subway system i had that happen to me the other day i got a text from my service provider who is not rogers right here telling me uh that that i would now be able to use data in parts of the subway system, right?

Like the U downtown, as well as almost every stop, I think, every station itself. But there's not infrastructure in all of the tunnels along the Bloor-Danforth line and all of that, right? But still, this is quite the progress. But it's a revolution, and I was using it the other day. It took me a moment to realize because I often would sort of like

pull out my phone and read something I already had open. Right, right. And then I will realize I have no signal again when I mindlessly click on something and I realize, oh, it's not loading. And in this time, something loaded. And I was like, oh, oh, it's on.

It's on. And it's like 10 years overdue. And yet it's still something to celebrate. So we got that. I will tell you, what was it called again when the Toronto Star had that PDF that was available at like 4 p.m. every day? What was it called?

Do you remember? So, okay. So I was working at like Avenue Road in Bloor or something and I had a subway ride west afterwards and I would print it at the office. Was it TO Tonight? No, it wasn't. No, it wasn't a Tonight thing.

Oh, I figured I wrote about it on torontomic.com at some point. But I would, I remember I would get my new, my PDF before I would leave the office. I would print it and, I would print it. And then I would read this Toronto star PDF on the subway. And to think, you know,

I've been ever since then, basically I just bike everywhere. So I don't have to worry about this, but to think I could just read it on my mobile. I could just download and read on my mobile phone today. This is exciting, exciting time. So thank you to whoever made that happen.

Amazing. And it, it, yeah. Star, star star star touch no that's the uh star touch was that was the ipad app yeah all right okay well next time you're in one of your wonderful uh detailed answers i will dig into my own blog see how i said that wonderfully deviled is the well here let me set you up for one more way to say rambling it's a very polite way i'm gonna save that i'm keen on keenan remember that i'm gonna get a t-shirt keen on keenan what the fuck is up

with the eglinton crosstown lrt man uh my understanding is that the head of metro lengths knows what the fuck is up with it but will not tell us that's basically what he said at his most recent press conference anybody just catching up if you're listening in spain or something and you're not following the ins and outs of lisbon portugal like ian okay here we go um this this is a massive mostly underground rapid transit line that runs across the city from the west end to scarborough it will be extended eventually in both directions further out into scarborough further out into etobicoke um but the first phase of it which is already one of the biggest sub biggest lines we'll have they've been under construction for 12 years now. Which is crazy.

And was supposed to open in 2020. And then early on, I think, actually, like fairly well before 2020, we knew it's not going to open in 2020. It's going to be 2021 instead. Then as 2021 approached, they were like, ah, no, 2022. Like it will be in service in 2022 and then in the fall of 2022 they kind of said no that's not going to happen either and we don't have a new date yet we will let you know early next year uh when the new date is and early next year came and went and

turned out like metro links the agency responsible for building this and the contractors they hired to build this started uh threatening to sue each other and everything uh and and there was silence like radio silence apparently reportedly imposed on them by the provincial government like political staffers saying like do not do not communicate with these members of the public or the press we just just shut it right and so that was the strategy was like no news is good news and guess what we did not out here interpret it as good news uh that that they were not communicating and so then um they had a metrolink said by the end of the summer i will give you an update right like just leave me alone

by the end of the summer i'll be able to give you a date i'll be able to tell you when this thing's going to open and so the end of the summer came and some of us took note of the fact that like, actually the equinox is upon us and, um, and, uh, and, um, no press conference has been scheduled. And so then they said, ah, it's coming soon, coming soon. So actually just a couple of weeks ago into the fall here, but still maybe in the end of summer area of the calendar, he actually gets up there to have a press conference. And what he says is, I had every intention of giving you a date

when you could expect to be open, or a timeframe, or a series of dates that are possible, but I don't have any confidence that any of those dates would be met yet and so i'm not going to give you a date and there was i was not at that press conference i watched uh chunks of it uh recorded um from those who were there though like the reporters did the obvious thing to like say like well can you give us like a order of magnitude like are we talking about days or months another decade years or decades uh and he was like not biting right and

so we are invited to imagine that it might be two to three years before this opens, or if it ever opens at all, or that it might open next week. However, the only thing he did say is that from now on, every two months, he's going to have one of these press conferences to tell us that he can't speculate on the date until the one press conference where he can tell us that he does have a date now. That implies, I think, that it would have a date now um that implies i think

that it would be at least two months that is not opening this year um but i don't even maybe because of where i live it's a little you know toronto's such a big city like you could have something going on on eglinton and it uh you know out of sight uh sight out of mind but why this extraordinary delay like why were they so wrong with the initial timelines i mean i think in fairness to to everybody involved uh there were construction shutdowns associated with a pandemic that delayed them significantly but it was already really delayed before the pandemic it it was but not not as dramatic it was really delayed not really really delayed um and then and then there's the fact that all these projects

everywhere in the world virtually, not every single one, but it's a pretty routine thing that these projects go way over time and often significantly over budget. This one is not that significantly over budget. And my understanding is actually that part of the problem has been and i haven't

independently confirmed this to a degree of certainty but the whispers i hear the chat i hear among people who've been close to the project are that metro links is really concerned with not going over budget and so these companies that have now lost significant amount of money on this project because it's taking so long because of the increased costs after the shutdown because of the increased cost due to inflation on construction projects after you know recently right um for any number of reasons uh you know their profit margin is usually built on change orders right like you've got the thing and then you say, okay, this is different than what you initially requested. We need extra money

for that. And Metrolinx has been fighting them on all of these orders. And so these companies that work for the contractor, some of the massive potentially face what's been portrayed to me as like bankruptcy level crisis over the amount of money they're going to lose having built the eglinton crosstown i've been trying to get the province to agree that metro links to agree to pay to finish it um and and they've been fighting over that because metro links have an overridingiding prime directive to not go over budget, right? There may be much more to it than that, but that's the short version of what's actually happened.

But I will say, almost all of these kinds of projects go way over time because what happens is that they're approved and scheduled and the budget is set and everything is made before they ever start doing any of the real significant design work it's like if you've ever had a home renovation project and you don't live in a brand new house and you you do your best estimate right on what it's going to cost to replace the ceiling in your kitchen right and then you take the ceiling down you say oh these joists are all rotted out

and there's a family of raccoons living in here. And what's this knob and tube you got here? And I got knob and tube wiring. Right. We always set our budgets and our timelines before we open the ceiling and see what we're looking at. Right. And the nature of that is that there are always going to be some things you did not anticipate

that are going to take much longer. But here's the wisdom I learned. One of the few things I learned, I worked in the restaurant business. I learned to cook. I learned a lot of stuff. But when I was waiting tables and stuff stuff what i learned quickly is that when there are delays in the kitchen when there are backups when there are mistakes people if you go to them and say you know what the we're really busy the kitchen lost your order uh and it's going to be

another half an hour or if you say you don't you don't throw the kitchen under the bus you say they're really backed up and we had a giant table came in right before you. It's going to be another half an hour or whatever. And then you say something like, I'm really sorry. If you have to go back to work, like if your lunch break is over, I understand your drinks are on the house, right? And lunch tomorrow is on me, right?

Or you say, you know, but if you can wait around, I'll buy another round of drinks uh very good and then they leave happy they often when they know how long it's going to take they've been given an explanation an apology and they've been told what to expect they often leave happy those those people will become regular customers they'll come back you screwed up their whole lunch you waited to wait an, and yet they're still happy because you just clearly communicated to them what they could expect. And this is the one thing we're not getting.

Every new revision of the timeline we've been given has turned out to be wildly optimistic. Right. It's about managing expectations. Now we're not even being given a right uh revised timeline like we're too close to you can go to black creek park right now or black creek there's a park near black creek where you can watch baseball games and in the background of the baseball game you can see trains running on those tracks on the englington crosstown every three

minutes they are in that phase of testing where they are running frequent service like as if it's rush hour okay if it's that close to being finished surely it's close enough that you could just give us a date but they won't no all right so that's what the fuck is up with eglinton crosstown lrt that could also be a segment on the toronto star podcast what the fuck is up with Eglinton Crosstown LRT? That could also be a segment on the Toronto Star podcast. What the fuck is up with Eglinton Crosstown LRT here? Every month, Ed. It's a long-term strategy. That's going to be a podcast on its own.

That's just the WTF Eglinton Crosstown. Move over billionaire murderers. We probably got years and years and years worth of episodes to come on that. Right. It's like a one piece. It's just going to keep going. Okay. That's a reference for Jervis, who's fallen in love with one on that. Right. It's like a one piece. It's just going to keep going. Okay. That's a reference for Jervis,

who's fallen in love with one piece here. Okay. So, and then we're like, what's one piece? Come on, figure it out. Listen,

I drop a special episode of Toronto Mic'd at the end of every month in which I like to celebrate and shine a light on people who passed away that month. So, I just put together the September 2023

Ridley Funeral Home Memorial episode of Toronto Mike. So thank you Ridley Funeral Home for supporting the show, pillars of this community. I do have measuring tape. I think I've probably given you more. I see this measuring tape. This is a very useful. You never know.

Check that waistline. It's like Taylor's measuring tape. Right. So thank you Ridley Funeral Home. But this is a long-winded way of saying I was celebrating two architects who passed away in september and i'm wondering again i'm putting you on the spot here because you never know what i'm gonna bring up here but and if you know if you want me to jog your memory on this and that but raymond moriyama

and claude cormier yeah both sadly passed away in September. And those names, they might not be for the average Joe. And what did I call myself? A normie. For the normies, they might not have, there might not be name recognition with Raymond Moriyama and Claude Cormier. But once you start reading,

like what in this city, forget other cities like Montreal and New York, all these different places, they all, you know, just in Toronto, these two gentlemen, so many public spaces we enjoy on the daily are thanks to their work.

And Moriyama designed quite a lot. Albert Campbell Collegiate Institute in Scarborough, but also the Scarborough Civic Center, which is just last week celebrated its 50th anniversary there, the old city hall, but also the square around it and all of that right in behind the Discover Town Centre. But most significantly to a lot of, a bunch of other places in Toronto, but what most listeners will know most directly are two places, right? The Toronto Reference Library at Yonge and Bloor, just north of Yonge and Bloor,

bluer just north of young and bluer yeah um which to is my favorite building in toronto just for how it looks and feels inside the purpose it's dedicated to like that we built this cathedral dedicated to like public knowledge like public access to knowledge because that's what it is and it and when you go in it it was built like almost 50 years ago. Or commissioned almost 50 years ago and designed and then built later in the 1970s. But still 45, 40, whatever. It still kind of has a fresh contemporary feel all this time later. The other one is the Ontario Science Centre. He built that. and a lot of people

have spent a lot of time in there and will have fond memories of it he built it in the ravine yeah in a way that uses the ravine like from inside the building the ravine is a feature of the building the swoops and hills and the trees of it um the way you walk through those corridors to get from one place to another. It so naturally inhabits its office. And it has that combination of like a 1960s, 1970s version of space age, but still a kind of a cool contemporary feel. So Moriyama, like just a giant in toronto don't forget the

betas uh the baddest shoe museum at a shoe museum right yes absolutely which we have since in this city yeah built um you know there's the uh addition to the rom there is the uh ocad building there is there's a bunch of what you would consider like of these sort of like architecty uh buildings that some people look at and go and other people go oh i love that right um and and i feel like there was a milestone when the batta shoe museum was built it was one of the first of that wave of buildings in Toronto, uh, where, where you really noticed the architecture,

uh, like, like modern wise. I, I obviously we have city hall, like old city hall and new city hall. We're both architecturally significant buildings. We have a lot of like kind of Victorian.

What about my friend Robards who I shouted out accidentally earlier in this episode? Oh boy. Yeah. so, so, and then Claude Cormier, who never lived in Toronto. He's a Montreal-based landscape artist, architect, landscape designer.

He built parks in Toronto, but also like over the last 20 years in particular, the last 10 to 15 years, really, a lot of public spaces that have gotten the most attention for being like almost un-Toronto-like in their playfulness and in their, like, it's so nice. We're not allowed to have nice things. Who built this? So, you know that Bersey Park, the fountain with the dogs

down near the Flatiron Building? Which is wonderful. Yeah. Sugar Beach with the pink with the dogs down near the Flatiron Building. Which is wonderful. Yeah. Sugar Beach with the pink umbrellas down near the Chorus Building. Love it. Love it so much. The HTO with the, it's also got umbrellas. It's like got a rolling wave deck and all of that.

And then most recently, Love Park, which is where the old off ramps at york street and bay for from the gardener expressway used to swoop there and there was like they called it a expressway park like somebody had wrote me to say didn't what it didn't it's not really a new park there was already a park there under the uh under the swooping off ramps and it was like there was some grass you could walk on to navigate a shortcut through beside them, but you were like walking under a highway off ramp and around it. It was not, it's now just a big, massive block of a park with a giant red heart pond in the middle of it

with a tree growing on an island in the middle of the, I love that park. I love it too. My wife works in the building right beside it. With a tree growing on an island in the middle of the... I love that park. I love it too. My wife works in the building right beside it. And so we've been, you know, we would meet there and have a coffee or whatever. Really nice addition to the city. And again, these are two gentlemen, maybe not the greatest name recognition. But when you look at like what they've brought to the city, like the best stuff, you know, the best parts of the city can be attributed to those two guys.

They got a lot of... Their fingerprints all over some of the best parts of the city can be attributed to the two guys they got a lot of their fingerprints all over some of the best parts for sure and some of the best parts of the lat like recent history right right now uh raymond moriam had uh passed away at the an age i hope i aspired to get there 93 that is uh pretty darn awesome but sadly we lost Claude Cormier. He was only 63 years old. Far too soon. Absolutely. Left us some great public spaces we can enjoy. He also, just as a postscript,

this week, so the Toronto Stars office moved down to the well at 8 Spadina. And the first thing to open at the well is the building that includes our office. It was like a big office tower. I've been working down there forever and did I knew there was still more to come including residence and stuff but I don't really know what it was so they had this big art tour the other day and I went on it and they were showing off some of the public art but

because of that we got to walk through all the different parts of like like what's going to open soon and it's like quite an astounding complex down there where they've built like a whole neighborhood of offices and businesses. But also, so on Wellington Street, Cormier Associates, Claude Cormier's firm, was in charge of developing, doing the landscape architecture on Wellington Street. And so they have a bunch of restaurants that are going to open out there and have patios right out onto it but there's like sort of a stone walk and broad gardens and trees uh as a like 500 meter long promenade all along wellington and and i i was kind of impressed by the whole well concept and we'll see once everything opens like how how well they've

how well pun intended they have done i'm keen on keenan at trying to build a a neighborhood block like a contemporary city like there's kind of an indoor mall or outdoor mall element of it but with like swooping canopies and public art and there's all these um love it like uh apartments and condos like where people will live in and around it. And it's like this one giant square block. So we'll see what it's like in action, but I was encouraged by my preview of it. But also, there's essentially a new linear boulevard park

by Cormier's firm that's just now becoming visible shortly after his death. So rest well, gentlemen, and thank you for your contributions to the city of Toronto here. I want to transition us here before we say goodbye. I want to get to Ontario Place and some provincial stuff. And I have a quick story about the CNE before, while we get there. But I want to shout out Great Lakes Brewery.

If you want fresh craft beer in the city, actually in the province of Ontario, forget to, we're going to go beyond Toronto's borders here in the province of Ontario. Great Lakes is available at LCBOs and grocery stores across this fine province. I pick up my beer at their, uh, their HQ as I call it,

which is by the Costco here in south etobicoke much love to great lakes there's some fresh craft beer for you to take home with you ed and a couple of podcasts i just want to tell the listenership about because you're subscribed to toronto mic'd obviously you should also subscribe to the advantaged investor podcast from raymond james whether you already work with a trusted financial advisor or currently manage your own investment plans, the Advantage Investor provides the engaging wealth management information you value

as you pursue your most important goals. So the Advantage Investor Podcast, but there is now season five of Yes, We Are Open, the award-winning podcast from Moneris, hosted by FOTM Al Grego. When I was at Ed Keenan's 50th birthday party, one of the guys I met at that party, I saw at Centennial Park yesterday

because they had the regional cross-country finals. Right, and that's a teacher at your kid's school. A teacher at my kid's school. I met in your backyard at your 50th birthday, and I said, Ed's coming over tomorrow tomorrow and he was quite excited about it he seems like a really uh a real uh good dude but i remember seeing the maneras speaker you had a maneras speaker in the backyard so you you're using that give it to me you give me that speaker i you need another one yeah absolutely you've earned it with this appearance yeah Yeah. And again, are you going to listen to season five of Yes,

We Are Open and be inspired by those great conversations? Oh, who knows? The things I could do once I have a speaker. I could listen. This is a mandatory prerequisite. You have to promise me you're going to listen to season five of Yes, We Are Open. I will. I will give it a listen. There you go. You earned that, buddy. You earned

that. In fact, okay, so recyclemyelectronics.ca. Everyone listening knows by now that's where you go if you have that, buddy. You earned that. In fact, okay, so recyclemyelectronics.ca. Everyone listening knows by now that's where you go if you have old electronics, old tech, old devices you want to get rid of. You don't throw it in the garbage. Those chemicals end up in the landfill. That's bad for everybody.

Diane Sacks will be very upset with you. If she finds out, she'll be pissed off. You know, her podcast came, I produce her podcast, Green Economy Heroes, and we're now doing monthly episodes. Oh, there you go! So we went on hiatus because she had other things to do with the city, but she's making time for one episode a month. So I've been spending some time with Diane lately. But thank

you, recyclemyelectronics.ca. I'm going to share the pumpkins after dark story because I have a personal story, a very quick one, that'll segue us into the land of Ontario Place. Okay. I worked at the cne for three summers when i was a teenager i worked there for a while uh in my late teenage and now that i'm having flashbacks in my early teenage years yeah yeah so so i uh me too okay yeah you

too so i was 15 16 17 those summers this is like late 80s into the early 90s. Okay. So yeah, you got one year on me. I know that because I was at your 50th birthday party. So I'm catching up, Ed. I'm catching up. I know that Ian's on the live stream thinking you've got 21 years on me. It's only one year, Ian. It's shocking. I know.

Okay. I kid. I kid. I kid because I like you. So there was a guy, the guy I worked for at the C&E, I worked for a little company called Astro Zodiac Enterprises. And they had a bunch of games and stuff at the C&E, I worked for a little company called Astro Zodiac Enterprises, and they had a bunch of games and stuff at the C&E. And I worked for a man named Ardo Guidaro.

This was his name. And I'm telling you, 15, 16, 17-year-old Mike was scared shitless of Ardo. He was a big, burly guy. He yelled at us. He had this, I guess he had a bunch of teens working for him at the x he had this like a persona sort of like tony soprano on a bad day before we had ever heard of the sopranos because it didn't exist yet i was scared shitless of arto gadaro fast forward to

and i wrote about if you google arto gadaro i'm pretty sure you get my i wrote about the legend of arto gadaro on torontomic.com and it it's one of the hits you'll get if you Google it. So I've been just, Ardo, I haven't seen him since I was 17 years old. But last week, my phone rings and I look at my phone and this is a true story, Ed, I wouldn't lie to you. The name on the phone, Ardo Godaro. And I'm telling you, I almost shit my pants

seeing that I was, I actually was scared. my pants seeing that i was i actually was scared like here i am pushing 50 i was scared oh no i'm fucking late for my shit get back to work like i didn't know what he was gonna do because he but i was scared shitless floats 50 bucks short kid it was scary so i i answered the phone oh whatever it turns out i don't know the name arto godard must be because he's paying the bills on this phone, but it's actually his son, Andrew, is calling me because Andrew's friend, close friend, is a huge Toronto Mike fan

and heard me talking about Pumpkins After Dark, which is an award-winning Halloween event taking place in Milton. And I always talk about the promo code because it saves you 15%. So everyone listening who goes to pumpkinsafterdark.com can save 15% with the promo code FOTM10. Is that the correct promo code as I talk about?

No, it's not. That's actually not it. It's TOMike15. I'd fix it in post, but I won't. TOMike15 saves you 15% at pumpkinsafterdark.com. But this is actually about something else. They heard me talking about Pumpkins After Dark, and it turns out Ardo Godaro owns this,

very different from Pumpkins After Dark, because it's to scare the shit out of you, unlike Pumpkins After Dark, which you can actually bring your kids to. It's called Screamers. Have you heard of Screamers? Yeah, it's like a haunted house kind of thing. It's like a haunted house thing in the Concord.

Anyway, Andrew was talking about that. Anyways, long story short is, next week i'm gonna uh talk for the first time since i was 17 years old i'm on toronto mic'd i'm gonna have a conversation with arto gadaro and i i thought i was a little nervous to talk to randy backman that was nothing i don't even know what i'm gonna do talking to to Ardo. It has been a very long time. The legend of Ardo. I got questions for Ardo. Adult Mike needs to talk to Ardo. Why did he put on this persona?

Did he know we were all like legit scared shitless of him? And he's running screamers in Concord and that's happening next week. Alright. What did you do for those games? Game booth attendant. Were you like a barker? Yeah, pretty much.

Yelling at people. One in to win. But you didn't have a mic. Sometimes I had a mic. In fact, quick story, quick aside. Sometimes we had a mic and I saw two people wearing 680 CFTR paraphernalia walking by and I jumped on the mic

and I said, 680 CFTR all hits radio or something because I actually listened to 680 at the time and they came over and handed me not only two tickets to a Blue Jays game but there was a pizza pizza party before the game and I got to attend that as well just because I shouted them out so there was

a mic sometimes so I kind of hit radio 6 CFTR was it Tom rivers personally who gave the i wish some promo but what i know i guess they were tv ads with tom i'm like the only reason i asked is that i i worked a couple years at like a cotton candy booth uh and then and then i worked for a game for several years and and it was like the birthday game and the crown and anchor these two independently owned games right next to each other. And so I love talking on the microphone because I had like,

loved like the idea of being in like a radio DJ. You watch WKRP like me. And so, and so I would just like treat it. You have to do your slogan. Step right up, folks. Try your luck.

How's about it? All it takes is $1, $1, $1. We'll make you holler. Come on in if you want to win and all of that. but is like i didn't this the rhymes were just like i just wanted to like have a talk show out there i just wanted to like and and so i thought it was cool but like and i was okay at it so then then the the guy who the imposing man who owned our game alan would come over and insisted that i'd be on the mic all the time right i want to talk on the mic and then for two or three years in a

row he hired me to manage the games which involved being there every hour that the fair was open um so like open to close every day for the entire c&E. 20 days. And I would talk into the mic that whole time. And of course, so when I started university, my first day of university, I had this Tom Waits rasp. I would lose my voice and then I would just. Fire more and more like. I'm pregnant. Painkiller stuff into my throat.

Wow. But later somebody asked me like, how did you, i used to mc a bunch of events and i did radio work and like people would say like oh how did you learn to talk so well into a mic and all of that and it was like i think it was like 14 hours a day at the cne it seems weird that i was just shouting come play the birthday game but it's like you actually learned how to use your voice to in a public address system 100 by doing that for hours and hours and hours right two comparables one is uh peter man's bridge at churchill airport making the announcements yeah and the other one is uh in rexdale i think it was sears

oh that's your phone is breaking news that breaking news probably an editor who wants to uh okay because uh i'm i'm uh targeting uh two hours or less for you uh you don't have to take a good but it's a strombo who would do the announcements at the sears or whatever in rexdale and that was his like uh you know there you go okay by the way this is important that pdf that i would read in the early 2006, I think it was 2007, to be honest. It was called Star PM. That's right. That's right. And I only know that

because I went to torontomic.com. I wasn't even working at the Star at the time, but I do remember when that came out. And it was like, there used to be an afternoon edition of the Star, like a print edition. Right. There used to be multiple editions every day

of all these newspapers, right? But then also like in special when breaking news happened and the last time i think it happened at the star was actually 9 11 september 11 2001 but certainly during the rob ford crisis the sun did it one day you would publish like i would call a bulldog edition which was like an update that comes out and you sell it to people driveuting home on the TTC. This is when, back so long ago, when you couldn't get a cell phone signal on the TTC.

Remember that? On the subway, when you couldn't use your data on the subway? Hard to believe. Lo, those many hours ago. So anyhow, that PM Toronto was like a digital age version of that Bulldog edition. Well, PM Toronto was where you'd bet on the horses.

Oh, no. What did you say it was called? The Star PM? Star PM. All right. Right. You just reminded me of Gallery Mall. So obviously ingenious enough branding that I cannot remember the name.

You were close. You said Star Tonight or something. But I do remember PM Toronto is at Gallery Mall. Yeah. Well, I worked at Gallery Mall for five years. I know the PM Toronto very well. Oh, my God. We have so much. Really? Yeah. My I worked at Galleria Mall for five years. I know the PM Toronto very well. Oh, my God. We have so much in common.

My dad worked at Galleria Mall for years and years. Where? He worked at the Towers. I was in the Towers fashion shows at Galleria Mall. Okay. It was Walter Rubino. Wait a minute. I've got to slow your roll here.

Hold on. Let me just process this. So in the middle of the mall were the Amigos, whatever. They sold me the coffees or whatever. That mall, they'd have fashion shows. so in the middle of the mall where that the Amigos whatever they sold me the coffees or whatever that mall they'd have fashion shows because one of the the anchors were

if I remember correctly in the area you're talking about Food City where I worked Food City was one anchor there might have been a Boots it eventually became like Pharma Plus or something

but it was a Boots before it got bought out or whatever and then yeah Towers which would eventually become a Zellers or something like that

HBC bought it and turned it into zellers and then and then so your dad worked at the towers and you were like a model for this uh well i mean it was like all the the models in the fashion show were like family members of the staff of the you know i miss the gallery mall right i just want to shout out the gallery who is walter rabino the manager of gal you might not have been it that kind of employee who knows the man no, I would sometimes have to go to the management because I would be sent

from the manager at Food City to whatever, but I didn't know the name. When my dad worked there, the manager was a guy named Malter Rabino and I didn't know him then. When I met him,

he was one of my high school teachers and my dad said like, Rabino, what? That can't be the same guy. And it's like, oh no, yeah, yeah, that's him. He was one of my high school teachers. And my dad said like, Rubino, what? That can't be the same guy. And it's like, oh, no, yeah, yeah, that's him. That's amazing. That's amazing.

That's why you do what you do. Okay. And Walter Rubino, just to close it, ran for mayor in the most recent election. He was one of the fringe candidates. One of the 102 candidates in that election. That is wild. Like, I'm going to drop this 102 candidates in that election. That is wild. Like, I'm going to drop this fun fact on the reg.

That's amazing. Okay, so I brought up my CNE story about Ardo Godaro, not just because I'm going to talk to Ardo next week on Toronto Mic, which is a mind blow for me, but because it gets us, you know, now we're at CNE, so now we're crossing over to Ontario Place. I'll shut up for a while.

People are tired of my voice. Where are we at with Ontario Place? Because the more I learn about this, the stinkier it gets. I think this is as greasy as the Greenbelt scandal. Please talk to me, Ed Keenan from the Toronto Star,

about the private spa that's... Well, where we're at with ontario place is like full steam ahead yeah the bell is gone the the request for proposals to chop down all the trees yeah has gone out uh it says right in it that um like time is of the essence on this project they're expected to get the work done quickly um and and so you know that's going to happen soon and i think people are expecting that at any point they're going to wreck fences and and step one to try and make this irreversible will be raise the forest right like once you've eliminated the landscape that's there then you got to rebuild it no matter what. And so, hey, might as well be a big spa and water park, right?

Yes. I think Olivia Chow's suggestion of the Better Living Center, which is kind of run down and often abandoned outside of the exhibition and some special exhibits. The Exhibition Place board would love to have that year-round attraction there. I think that it's closer to the Ontario's it's closer to the ontario line subway station that they're building yes eventually um the the cne grounds for most of the year is essentially an epic parking lot so you don't need a new underground parking garage it's like

this is just like win win win to me and actually, like, I am not opposed to the concept of this type of spa in Toronto. Like, I think actually out near Woodbine, this would be like a major attraction, right? There's a racetrack and a casino there now. And you put this water park spa, the tourists will go there. The locals will go there. It's like, Magnet, it will will go there it's like that magnet it will be great right it's like don't fuck up ontario place we only got one right park on the waterfront there and when we give it away it's gone for good and but this logic has not

uh it doesn't apply i like on some level doug ford and his government, and the key members of his government, don't believe Parkland is real. I like things like Ferris wheels. I like bar complexes. I like all of that stuff. I also like public space on the waterfront. And put something there that will enhance it rather than replace it. Put attractions there. Whether it's even a roller coaster like they used to have. I could see on the site of the old water park at Ontario Place,

which is now a vast expanse of concrete where they where they have three-on-three basketball tournaments and stuff um put a big ferris wheel there put a put a like those kinds of attractions have a place it's just like you've got this one whole island that stretches out into the lake with a beach on one side of it that used to be kind of an educational theme park and is now a sort of a landscaped contoured forest with all kinds of like walkways going through it. And it's like, that's where we need a giant glass dome that we'll charge admission to.

That's like the one spot. A private spa. Yeah. Yeah. That's like the one spot. A private spa. Yeah. Yeah.

So as far as I can tell, the outcry has been the outcry. People continue to hold protests, continue to sign petitions, continue to make alternative suggestions like the Better Living Center, including the mayor. I think they're running out of time and runway to make it happen the province is

participating in the city planning process voluntarily there's no requirement that the province in in developing provincial land has to abide by the city's planning process they are doing it as a courtesy to the city for whatever public relations value it gives them but they've they've got a deadline of like the end of this year to complete that process and just get begun and in the meantime they're already hiring the folks who are going to raise the forest that's there therma therma therm the company that's going to build this spa right um is like yeah yeah full steam ahead. We bid on this project for this one particular location. We're not at all interested in discussing Exhibition Place

or Woodbine or any other locations. So, I mean, if people out there want to call their member of provincial parliament, want to arrange to be a part of a protest, want to take whatever political action they think they can take to have their voice heard now's the time to do it if if you want to say on this uh it's looking less and less likely that like that that he's going to back down on this he did back down on the green work he did back down on this. He did back down on the green belt. He did back down on other stuff. There was a green belt reversal, big news, of course,

although that leads to a bunch of different questions. But like, so if the public outcry is greater than X, or does it matter where the outcry is coming? Because with the green belt, I noticed it was the province was out. But Ontario Place, it seems to just be Toronto. And I don't think Doug Ford cares about... It was the province. But Ontario Place, it seems to just be Toronto, and I don't think Doug Ford cares about... I think he wants to be liked in Toronto. I think he wants to be seen as a great man in Toronto.

He wanted to be mayor of Toronto, right? His brother was mayor of Toronto. He wants to be Mr. Toronto. But he also ultimately changes his mind and cares when he sees something really hurting him in the polls like he wants to be popular and so i think on the green belt ultimately when he could see that even conservative voters were abandoning him over it right um and thought this stinks it stinks in a way that we're not going to forgive when he saw that he changed his mind i don't know at this point if ontario place is has a wide enough rep

uh resonance like there is a perception that the outcry about ontario place comes from a bunch of uh downtown elitist pinko uh newspaper columnists and and city councillors and stuff who never shut up about public space issues and bike lanes and all of that stuff, right? He doesn't care about those people. So, I mean, if there's public polling showing that he's going to lose a significant amount of votes over it, that might move the needle.

Except Edward. I call you Edward and I'm being very serious. But the very few seats in the city of Toronto went to the Progressive Conservative. You're sitting in one right now, but there are very few. Yeah, I mean, there were a few, though. There were a few.

When we talk about the Conservative Party of Canada, we talk about zero seats in Toronto, right? But when we talk about the Progressive Conservative Party provincially, there are a few. Yeah. Yeah. No, exactly. right but when we talk about the progressive conservative party provincially there are a few yeah yeah no exactly so there's so i don't see how it could damage him in the the next election which seems to be what it takes to uh get reason out of him but i am curious you as a toronto star employee like we're we have good journalists at the toronto Toronto Star pulling at the threads here only because it does smell to me. I feel like there's more to this story

because if you step back and go back up 100 feet and look down and, oh, it's that Ontario place, which they just let run down. Hey, they're going to come in, swoop it in, put in a private spa and all those parking spots. Oh, yeah, and there's going to be how many dollars of public money are going to be spent for this private spa.

We've got to pull at these threads, man. There's something rotten in the state of Denmark. Well, I think people are going to continue to pull at those threads. But, I mean, I think on a lot of these projects, and this is my default assumption, which could be overturned by evidence, right? But a lot of things where where people look at doug ford and they would say is he getting some kind of payoff um like

i think more often the like occam's razor here that applies is that doug ford likes these business people and he likes to impress them and he likes to show them that he's a big shot and like give them contracts because it because he actually thinks that's that's how you do business right like he thinks that's a good ontario open for business that means i'm gonna give good stuff to business people, right? Developers, like whatever. And, you know, when he goes and sees like these big spas or attractions and stuff, he's like, that's the character of a city. Because like when you're a tourist and you go to a city and you're like,

oh, let me ride the Ferris wheel on the waterfront. Let me go to the Wild Water Kingdom. Let me go to the Great Wolf Lodge. Let me eat at the giant restaurant overhanging the falls or whatever, right? You're like, those are the defining elements in that place. Now, if you talk to the people there, very seldom are the tourist attractions the defining elements of those places, right? Like, what New Yorker goes up? How often do they go up the Empire State? Are the tourist attractions the defining elements of those places, right?

Like, what New Yorker goes up, how often do they go up the Empire State Building? How often do you and I go up to CN Tower? I'm glad CN Tower is there. John Sewell is still ranting and raving about it, but it's like, you don't think that's the stuff that makes great neighborhoods. That's the big asset that makes it worth living in Toronto. It's like, those are, you know, cool side shows.

Right. Okay, I'm, you know, not just because I spend three or, I happen to love Ontario plays. Do you have any more promos to do? Do you need a washing break? I just need a second, yeah, yeah. Go, we'll wrap up when you come back. I will share some radio news, so Mr. Keenan will be right back with us.

But I'm sharing a couple of pieces of radio news and then I'll get Ed's feedback on this when he comes back. One of which, a story I broke on TorontoMic.com is that FOTM Josie Dye, Josie Dye is a morning show host at Indie 88. There's a whole separate story here where Indie 88 has been sold to another smaller outfit. But irregardless, that's not a word, by the way, regardless,

Josie Dye has quit her job as morning show at Indie 88. I think she, I don't know how long she'll stick around, but she's still there. But she's given her notice. They're actively looking for her replacement there. And she has taken a job with 104.5. We used to know it as Chum FM. They dropped the FM from the branding, but at Chum. And we wish Josie well. I mean, this is a big deal for her. I think there will be,

Bell Media has some television component to this. And, you know, I know a lot of people listening to me right now are big Josie Dye fans. So she'll be doing the afternoon drive at the new station, 104.5. She's taking the Meredith Shaw spot that was vacated when Meredith Shaw left Chum for breakfast television. So, Ed, welcome back. I was just updating everybody. I wonder if

people out there are listening and they're thinking Indie88 needs a new morning person. That's Toronto Mike. Oh wait, yeah, yeah. Toronto Mike! If anything ever goes south of you and the Toronto Star, and it would never be because of your work, you're the best

and they're lucky to have you, but tough times in media. Your show on the TMDS podcast network is going to be called Keen on Keen. And we talked about Paken quite a bit earlier, but I told Paken when he's on the outs at TVO and what time is it?

It could be any minute now. I love that guy, but this is the nature of the business. I believe his show will be called What's Shaken But the Paken. I thought you were going be any minute now okay i love that guy but this is the nature of the business i believe uh his show will be called what's shaken but the bacon oh i thought you were gonna say pick in the ass but it doesn't i like mine better pain pain seemed like a near rhyme in my head before i said it about the bacon one last radio note that you can uh tell me what you think of it i don't know if you have an opinion on this but uh metro morning is a very popular speaking of uh recently filmed morning uh announcer jobs right and thank you look you should be my co-host you said perfectly there they've named a new uh so aisha alpha comes

this male i said the wrong name that's his sister's name okay that's funny that's in my head like that because she's very funny are you friends with the? I know the sister from booking her on Humble and Fred. She's a very funny comedian. So I wouldn't say I'm friends. But they're from Winnipeg? Are they from Winnipeg? Just like my friend Randy Backman. Maybe CBC should go as a comedian.

They have somebody distinguished instead. David Common, who I always think is, when I hear him filling in, I think David Common is very good at this. David Common is the new morning show host uh on cbc radio one here in toronto uh he's the metro morning host and he's as confirmed he is making his toronto mic debut later this year he uh has that kind of like i was reading the uh story about about him being announced and from what i've heard of him which is relatively limited like i've seen

him on the air on tv over the years a little bit and heard him occasionally on the radio, but he seems very good. But he's like, he's one of these guys where like, he has reported from 85 countries and it's like, I didn't even know there were 85 countries.

Like I was a foreign correspondent for a couple of years in the US, but it's like, you reported from two different countries. That's right. Two different countries I have reported from. But no, no. So like obviously kind of cool career and a kind of cool next step.

He's good at it. He's good at it. And I always like the cut of his jib. So yeah, that's a new more. And before, when you were taking care of business, shout out to my friend Randy Backman. What the hell am I doing? I was just revealing the big news

that Josie Dye is leaving Indie 88 for chum. She's going to take over where Meredith Shaw was because Meredith Shaw took a job on Breakfast Television. That's how it all works here. Oh, and then Meredith Shaw is over at BTV. She went to Rogers. Yeah, yeah. So to work closely with John Torrey.

Just kidding. Just kidding. There you go. All right, we're winding down now because I will not let an Ed Keenan episode exceed two hours. As you can see, his bladder can't make it two hours. So do you have any thoughts? So Jennifer Hollinson on Over Tomorrow,

she's with the Walrus, Toro versus the Walrus 20 years on. What are your thoughts? Are they competitors? I don't know. This was a wise plant. Literally, I copied and pasted it. I mean, I'm trying to remember if they were founded at the same time.

I think Toro came first, and then it was kind of like winding things up around the time the Walrus came out. Maybe not. I don't know. I mean, one of them is still publishing right one of them is not um i think if anybody is is too young to remember it or was not plugged into media stuff toro was a men's magazine a sort of a model to be a canadian version of esquire with like some good long form writing uh like fashion stuff, a little bit of cheesecake now and again.

And, you know, for those of us in the journalism business, the big scoop on Toro and the Walrus, the reason why they might be together in some people's minds if they were in the writing game, is because $2 a word speaks a language every freelance journalist understands and the standard in canada for freelance magazine journalism in the early 1970s was one dollar a word um and the standard uh in canada in the year 20 2005 say was one dollar a word uh no raises for inflation no raises of any kind um and so these two magazines that that were rumored or or reported to have been paying as much as two dollars a word

there's an asterisk there like for some high profile contributors on some pieces and all of that um there was tremendous excitement among journalists for them um toro you know was revived at some point as as more of a straight ahead like fashion magazine marketing ploy uh that that also didn't work i i take it um the walrus is still going now as a educational non-profit uh but still a publishing published magazine so i don't have a lot of um as a reader i when they were both in in print at the same time i found torah to be a livelier read um the walrus has certainly won way more national magazine awards and has maybe done some more much more serious longer form journalism uh but there you go i believe that the first cover person of uh for Magazine was Sam Roberts, the rock star.

And I confirmed this week that Sam Roberts will be in person in the Toronto Mike Studios here for a sit-down. Wow, how about that? You can ask him about Toro versus the Walrus. That's going to be my first question. Just get comfortable, Mr. Rogers. Mr. Roberts.

Mr. Rogers. All right, we're winding down now. Sam Rogers van. Yeah, Mr. Rogers. Mr. Roberts. Mr. Rogers. All right, we're winding down now. The Sam Rogers van. Yeah, the Sam Rogers van. Kind of a heavy topic to close with, but I enjoyed your piece on this, and I was hoping we could just chat a little bit about these protests that occurred recently,

anti-gender ideology protests. Man, there's a new one coming up, too. Somebody emailed me today to say, did you see on YouTube? I had not seen on YouTube. Did you see on YouTube one of these guys has announced that they're going to do another one in October? But sometimes, wasn't there something recently

that never actually materialized? Like some kind of a little convoy? Yeah, it was like this convoy blockade of Queens Park. And I play hockey with a guy who works in finance at Queens Park, like, you know, as a civil servant, a bureaucrat. But he's like, the whole roads were shot down, the police presence in the buildings was heavy, like they were really concerned.

And nobody came. And nobody came. Just like your 50th birthday, when it was just you and i at the party but yeah but i did go down to um they called it the like million canadians march right or something like that something like that there was like an implication there that it was going to be a million people i think they're talking about across the country because it was coordinated protests in various cities i can report you that at queen's

park in toronto uh the number was less like seven digits and more like three high threes low fours um like like maybe i'm not an expert at crowd size estimates but i would i would have probably said like maybe a thousand fifteen hundred people there was an equally large crowd or or potentially larger of counter protesters who were like trans rights are human rights and the other people were like hands off our kids and it was the whole fuck trudeau crowd right like one of the most common posters there was that that fuck trudeau poster uh with a canadian flag on it there was a bunch of like shouting and talking about trudeau being a pedophile and uh part of the and how uh there's a lot of like anti-vaxxers there like with anti-vax signs and like literature and shirts that

that were like uh anti-mask as well, and how people there will tell you and hand you literature that would outline how those vaccines and 15-minute cities and also credit cards are part of a global conspiracy that Trudeau is no doubt a part of to control your life and monitor you and implement a system where if you don't do things like change your gender and stuff

that you'll be punished. It's like we are talking about the worst like wackaloons in in the country this is their outrage of the moment and they are joined by some earnest and i believe misguided actual parents uh who are concerned about um the educational curriculum as as regards trans people in in the school system um in the united states this this trans issues have have really been raised up as this like kind of hateful wedge right and so in kentucky and tennessee and all these other states they've implemented laws where like trans people can't use the appropriate washrooms for themselves or they can't play on

the sports team that corresponds to to their gender even if their teammates and opponents want them to uh and they can't um nobody's obligated to use their preferred pronouns which is like really the least of anybody's concern right like it's like i mean just the number of people who encounter a situation where anybody pointing out that they're being impolite is like how dare you infringe on my rights i don't have to call you sir i can call you shithead if i want to call you shithead hey shithead why are you so upset at me for calling you shithead all the time it's like no nobody's trying to infringe on your rights you're free to be an asshole we'll just call you an asshole when you are right and that's why a lot of these people like oh no they're the worst kind of snowflakes who are like you know he wants to be called he instead of she and and

somehow that is an offense against me. Like enough that I need to start a public campaign to get sympathy about it, right? In the meantime, it's just like, somebody did ask you to use a title to refer to them. It's like, it's optional too. They don't have to be their friend. Don't call me Michael.

Yeah, yeah. Like, and so, and you know, I did, i had a long email exchange with somebody who was not at the protest and he said i have a few specific concerns like i i was initially against gay marriage way back when gay marriage was the topic du jour but i came around on it and i actually had an evolution that i believe has like opened my eyes to a whole different way of looking at the world and so i'm'm not, I don't want you to think I am some ideological bigot, right? I actually want trans people to have long, healthy lives and be

supported in their decisions and all of that. But I am concerned about some of the ways that the current TDSB policy counsels teachers to counsel students and whether or not their parents should be included in those discussions, what they're allowed to say to people. He's not talking about the curriculum. He's talking about guidelines for interpersonal private counseling, right?

And I think even his concerns, from what I'm able to get from experts on this, are maybe overblown. He's worried about situations that we haven't seen arising. But still, I can understand his concerns. Right? The expressed concerns about the curriculum are just like gibberish. They're just nonsense.

Like, there's nobody out there trying to convert your kids. Right? Like, there's nobody out there trying to convert your kids, right? Like there's nobody preaching a, like all they're preaching is acknowledging that certain people exist and that they should be tolerated and welcomed as members of the community, acknowledged as they are. That's it. And it bugs me a little bit that that these guys focus on like oh these perverts the only reason they want to talk about sex with your kids is because they're

perverts they're perverts that are like trying to like i don't know i guess the plan is that you you get them to change their gender identity and then you do your perverted stuff? I don't know. I don't know why that would be a prerequisite, because the history of actual perverts is rich with people who fulfilled their traditional gender roles just fine, just like fully and completely. But I know several trans people, and my understanding of their identity has nothing to do with sexuality. It has nothing to do with sex.

It has everything to do with how you feel being acknowledged, like how you dress, how you present yourself, like whether you see yourself as a man or a woman. It's not a kinky sex thing at all like it's not it's not related it i mean obviously there are some in in the same way that be being male is somehow related to my sexuality eventually right like but it's not like when we talk about trans issues and and all of that stuff we're really not talking about people's sex lives we're talking about how they see themselves existing in the world like when they're fully dressed when they're out at work when they're

when they're interacting with people and the people who want to turn everything into some weird kinky sex thing, to me, that's the perversion, right? And so I'm not real impressed with these protests is the upshot of it. But I also, it encouragingly to me, it does seem to be a bit of a fringe minority at this point, not some general broad--based, widespread panic about this issue among the general public. I hope you're right.

Sorry, a rant. No, no, I was hoping you would do one of those. I'm keen on the Keenan rants, but it seems to me like almost, I almost want to say in certain groups that it's become kind of trendy and hot to be anti-trans and i can't wrap my head around it and i've noticed that you don't pop up in a dave chappelle bit or whatever and it pops up here and then you that these these protests and it's all i don't i was hoping you could help me understand like why is there this

anti-trans we would no longer tolerate misogyny or you know homophobia or racism and i struggle to understand why in some sects s-e-c-t-s anti-trans sentiments seem to be so in vogue in 2023. It's concerning to me and disappointing to me. Well, I think there's like a political movement, right, that has its own motives, right? And those motives are like whipping up outrage in the service of like a semi-authoritarian ideology wherever they can whip up outrage, right?

It was like critical race theory last year in the United States. It's trans stuff this year. It's like wherever they think they can prey on the concerns of parents or others like that there's an actual legitimate safety issue or their kids are being brainwashed or whatever. But I do think that among like comedians and hipsters and whatnot there's a knee-jerk impulse that i actually understand because i have an instinct to share it sometimes uh to push back against boundaries being imposed on you and it was just what i was saying

like comedians always want to invoke the right to be an asshole right because sometimes it's funny to be an asshole sometimes the jokes are funny so they don't want to be told that they can't tell rape jokes they don't want to be told that they can't tell holocaust jokes they don't want to be told that they can't make fun of of uh a woman who looks to them like a man right um and so so that they want that all to be fair game and and i understand that a comedian's uh thing is like if you say these things are unthinkable unsayable then they they ultimately become unthinkable like if you can't articulate what you find weird or uncomfortable or dangerous like you can't think through the process like you have to be able to joke about these things.

And not only that, they'll say, you can't tell those jokes unless they're funny, right? If you're making people laugh, you're touching something on them. Obviously, you haven't ventured out of there, right? It's like, that's a whole separate debate about humor. But I think like in a lot of these politically correctness conversations and all of that, separate debate about humor but i think like in a lot of these political like politically

correctness conversations and all of that which we've called different things over the years i i have sometimes been guilty of this but i think we have a tendency our our discomfort with having socially imposed limits on us gets confused with the government imposing speech limits on us, right? And so the argument, I want it to be socially acceptable for me to openly express homophobia is different than the argument I want to be able to be homophobic without being thrown in jail for it.

Right? I think where I stand on those two different arguments is two different places. Right? Yeah, agreed. Like, you are free to be a jerk, but everybody else is free

to call you a jerk. Right? That's actually free speech. We're having an exchange of views right uh and i i think the comedians hopping on it though are like there's always a place for if you're a say the taboo thing you say the thing you're not supposed to say um there's a certain cool factor to that in a lot of people's minds and in a lot of comedians minds and i think that's where we're at with trans issues is that people have determined oh this is the new third rail that you're not

supposed to touch let me jump on it well said as usual ed keenan always a pleasure thanks for doing this i'll see you again in uh in a quarter yeah it will pop up as a reminder in my calendar we don't even communicate before these like mike sent me a message today or last night saying, are you still coming tomorrow? And it's just like, oh yeah, it's in my calendar. And here you are. And you did earn that lasagna, so don't leave here without it. And that brings us to the end of our 1,338th show.

You can follow me on Twitter. I'm at TorontoMikeEd. It's at TheKeenanWire. And much love to those who make all of this possible. That's Great Lakes Brewery. That's Palma Pasta. That's Raymond James Canada.

That's Moneris. That's Recycle My Electronics. That's Pumpkins After Dark. Get your tickets now. T-O-Mic-1-5 is the promo code. And that's Ridley Funeral Home. We dropped a new episode of Life's Undertaking last night. That's Brad Jones' excellent podcast I get to co-host.

See you all tomorrow when my special guest is Jennifer Hollett. You've been under my skin guest is Jennifer Hollett. We'll see you next time.