Toronto Mike'd: The Official Toronto Mike Podcast - Erik Grosman: Toronto Mike'd #696

Episode Date: July 29, 2020

Mike chats with Erik Grosman, formery of the Toronto Blue Jays and currently with the Toronto Wolfpack, about racism and sexism he witnessed in his career.

Welcome to episode 696 of Toronto Mic'd, a weekly podcast about anything and everything. Proudly brought to you by Great Lakes Brewery, a fiercely independent craft brewery who believes in supporting communities, good times and brewing amazing beer. Palma Pasta, enjoy the taste of fresh homemade Italian pasta and entrees from Palma Pasta in Mississauga and Oakville. Garbage Day. Weekly reminders for garbage, recycling, and yard waste pickup. Visit GarbageDay.com slash Toronto Mike to sign up now. StickerU.com. Create custom stickers, labels, tattoos, and decals for your home and your business. The Keitner Group. They love helping buyers find their dream home.

Text TORONTOMIKE to 59559. CDN Technologies. Your outsourced IT department. And Pumpkins After Dark. Save 10% with the promo code TORONTOMIKE. I'm Mike from Toronto, Mike.com and joining me is the former public relations communication specialist for the Toronto blue Jays and current director of media relations for the Toronto wolf pack.

Eric with a K Grossman, but with only one S. Yup. Yup. Gotta be different. Gotta be different. Got to be different. I feel like we had a mini episode before I pressed record. We covered everything from your wedding in the distillery district.

Yep. What year did you get married? I got married in 2010. Okay. So I copied you because I got married in the distillery district. Oh, there you go. So I copied you. And you have a six-year-'m gonna get a six-year-old

boy yep and a four-year-old girl got it and i have the same there you go and we we also so much so much in common we cover lots of ground and we know each other because i frequent in fact i had my wolfpack t-shirt on just the other day i saw that yeah and i was just chatting uh one of my buddies would would would uh i'd often see him at wolfpack games and his name is doug shout out to doug doug mills and uh we were just saying how much we missed those saturday yeah games that like we just missed that whole routine i would bike over you know just and i i i barely knew what was going on on that field. Yeah, it's, yeah. But anyway.

It doesn't matter though, actually, right? So much? No. You had a good time regardless. I had a great time because I knew just enough to be dangerous. And I knew like enough that, hey, we got to get over that line. Yeah. And I knew what the point system was. So I really did have a good sense of what we needed to win or hold off.

That's all. And what was good. And I would read the crowd, sense of what we needed to win or hold off and what was good. And I would read the crowd, right? Because the crowd would react. And I knew when they were happy, because there's no screen. So if you miss it, you miss it. So when things are happening on the other side, because I'd be on the non-King Street side, the opposite side, across from the Zoomerplex. Shout out to Moses. Like if you miss something on the other end, but the crowd was happy, you were happy. Right.

That's it. That's all we're looking for. Just a little bit of, you know, a little bit of cheer, a little bit of happiness. And I would see you, you are the current. You're still there, right? Yeah. This is the weirdest thing in the world.

It's not like any other sport that we're used to and how this thing works, right? Because when the pandemic hits, everything else is going to be fine. The leagues are going to be fine. Sure, they lost some money, right? Except the CFL, maybe. Right. Well, that's a great comparison some money, right? Except the CFL, maybe. Right. Well, we're very, you know, that's a great comparison. We are a lot like the CFL, actually.

So, yeah, it's just the whole sport, the whole thing has been weird. Like, it's just a different, unique kind of sports team than we have, that we've ever seen. Well, you're transatlantic. Yeah. Which is unique in itself. Yeah. Here's what, if anyone if anyone has like 20 minutes to spare half an hour right now, if you want to catch up on the soap opera, just Google Toronto Wolfpack RFL or Toronto Wolfpack

Super League or something like that. And then you can just kind of catch yourself up real quick on, on what's going on. But the, the easy way to way to explain it like i'm not going to take too much time on it but let's say you know um oshawa and pickering and ajax and port perry and stouffville and unionville have this really cool hockey league right um it's professional but and it's hockey with a twist right it's not hockey that nhl that we watch but just some other thing that it's doing and for some odd reason london england a city one of the biggest cities in the world that's got 12 million people in it right want it want in on this action right so so a group in in london england want want a piece of this thing that we got going on here in a small town out there right and you would think that you know what we have you know our small town out there, right? And you would think that, you know, our small town league here would be like,

well, just come right on. Sorry, what? When can you start? London, England, when can you start? Right. Come on in. Where this thing has been backwards from the beginning because it's the other way around.

Toronto, a big city, 6 million people, were begging, begging to be in their league in the small northern town in the uk a northern uk league um because people think it's england so it's london it's like this big no it's it's it's the north part it's not the same these are small communities you're driving on the highway every two minutes you're hitting a new city that's who we're playing and they from the start were like well no we're playing. And they, from the start, were like, well, no, we're going to make this as difficult as possible for you to survive. We don't want you, but if you really want to come in, fine.

Fine, we'll have you, but we'll make it so difficult for you. So there's that part of it, and then there's our part of it. You know, no one is to be given applause. No one is to be blamed. Everyone's responsible for it. We're not perfect either. So we're in this position now where it has to be kind of figured all out. And we're waiting.

We're just waiting for it. And the news, I mean, the big news recently is you withdrew from the 2020 season. Yeah. And then I saw some notice. Maybe Neil Davidson, somebody was covering it, saying the league was disappointed. Yeah, because we pulled out two weeks before the season started, basically. But you pulled out, well, you couldn't play in Toronto. No, that's for sure.

So I guess you had, is it a financial thing? Sure. Of course. Everything always comes down to, I don't care what anyone ever said. It's always a financial thing. Every time something happens. Because you don't have big, you know, television money. No money. Like that brings me, that was my point, right?

Right. Like, you know, the, the league has not given us anything. Right. Um, well, and if those are the rules that we, um, went in on, it's not like a surprise. Right. They, they said they were going to revisit, but I don't think that's really happened, but we knew the rules and we accepted them. And so that's what I mean. Both sides are equally irresponsible or responsible,

whichever way you want to put it. But what does this mean for your, you know, being in the Super League? Because that was a big deal that you, because you had to go through, and like, again, like you're right in North America. And my buddy Elvis has been trying to educate me cause he's a soccer guy and soccer is a bit similar, but you have these tiers and you started in like the third tier and you had to

go be promoted to the second tier. And I mean, I was at that million pound match where we somehow lost four to two or something and that would have put us in the super league so we had another year but then we did we did uh that was exciting yeah and then this i don't know i i know it was tough going but i did read we signed a uh i'm gonna say the name and tell me if i mess it up uh sunny boy williams sunny bill sunny bill williams yeah who's is that is that a jazz musician a blues musician sunny boy williams no no no that's so that's the thing right so it's a shame he never got to come here that was his whole point of signing here was to play in toronto not england right and he got yeah so we did our road games i guess and then this season was paused anyway there's no uh no wolf back in 2020 um no so what do you do like uh do

they pay you still or is that too personal is that too personal? Is that too personal? Okay. Yeah. But, you know, like, honestly, though. I ask the tough questions here. And I didn't drive all this way to give you sugarcoating anything. Right. I would tell, I would, that's another conversation for another day. That's what I would say. All right.

It's a conversation we can have for sure. And if things work out, like, ideally, like, could Son bill uh play in toronto in 2021 that's million dollar question it's just impossible to answer you mean million pound question yeah it's just impossible it's impossible so many things at play so many things at play you know if you live in a perfect world which we do not no um you know then. Would you want to live in a perfect world? That sounds boring. Oh, it depends. Yeah. Sometimes. Yeah.

Okay. So as I recall, you had great like beer tents in the end zone, like on the King Street side of the beer garden. Yeah. That's what we'll call them. Yeah. And I did see Great Lakes beer there sometimes. Yeah.

So what was their deal that sometimes they had a representation there and you can get a Great Lakes? So Joe Santos, who you had on. That's when you came over. So I should point out to everybody, Eric's been here but never got on the mic. Because Joe hogged that mic and Joe was great. He taught me a lot about Wolfpack. Yeah. Yeah.

So that's his thing. That's his baby, the beer garden. So he figured back when the team started in 2017 that we needed something other than just the rugby to make this thing grow, make this thing enjoyable, make this thing like a fun activity in Liberty Village where you can go to basically any bar in King West and you'll be happy there.

So it lends itself perfectly. So he wanted to kind of like, you know, what's it called? Like copy that idea and bring it in there's another better word I had for it but I lost it copy that idea put it into the duplicate duplicate sure clone clone exactly so get that feeling

yeah yeah yeah and that's what he did so you make it a party so you make every event every game we consider them we call them like events, right, as opposed to games because that beer garden is massive that you get to like, you can hang out there and you can watch the game right from where you're standing. You're right on the pitch. You can touch, you know, don't, but you can touch the players when they score.

And then after the game, there's a two-hour after party. So the players on both teams will come in after and they'll just kind of like mingle with the fans. It's a very great atmosphere, to be honest.'s it's it's the best kept secret i thought no and i and i saw with my own eyes at least you know 10 000 people at games last year yeah like i mean it did seem like there were there were and i mean at this and you'd hear down the street not too far away you'd hear about like 9 000 at a argos game so like in terms of bodies anyway uh and and i always had an assumption this is just me talking eric don't even answer your lawyer doesn't want you to answer but i always felt like they would report the fire

capacity number like because let's pretend there was 12 000 you'd report the legal cap number so it just looked a lot more sometimes, but I won't speculate any further. So Great Lakes, I guess it's Joe Santos has to make sure Great Lakes is at the. Sorry. Yeah. So he added them in on the end there.

Okay. So I'm in, in honor of that move by Joe, I'm going to crack open an octopus wants to fight. There you go. Awesome. And like many of those Saturdays when I would be at Lamport stadium, they're watching the

wolf pack it's a beautiful day like i thought it might have thunderstorms today but i'm looking up at blue skies and i'm so glad you're here buddy oh same cheers my imaginary one and i have a uh palma pasta lasagna for you inside so do not leave without it okay and because you're a listener as well which we'll get into very much so before we start spilling the real talk. Um, you, uh, I have sticker you Toronto Mike stickers for you to take home as well.

Beautiful. So I'm taking care of you, buddy. Yes, you are now. Okay. So we Wolfpack season suspended and, uh,

we'll stay tuned. Hopefully, uh, hopefully we get to see it again next summer. It was a really, really fun experience. And before you join the Wolfpack, can you just tell me a little bit about what you did for the Toronto Blue Jays?

Yeah, so, you know, I was with the Jays from 2002 to 2017. So I was there for 15 seasons. Long story short of it, I um for this team called the toronto phantoms they were an arena football team um this was way i kind of remember this yeah it didn't it wasn't around but i do remember the phantoms yeah so it was arena football team and um they were owned by rogers um so rob godfrey was the uh he was the president of the phantoms and his dad paul paul godfrey was the president of the blue jays right his dad, Paul, Paul Godfrey was the president of the Blue Jays. Right. Right. So my whole life, like I was a baseball guy.

Like you wouldn't believe I love you wake up in the morning, baseball, go to bed, baseball, all that stuff. Right. I couldn't get enough. So I wanted to work for the Blue Jays and I didn't really care how or what. Just wanted to. That was my goal. Right. So I figured, well, you know, if one thing would ever lead to another thing you know um they're owned by the same company rogers so maybe one day they join i don't know i just it was a random thought i might as well try now just finish school i have nothing else to do even you know i remember my dad saw an article in the newspaper they were um talking about the phantoms and that like there was a number at the bottom if you're interested for tickets call that number so he's like why don't you just call them and see if they have any jobs right right like perfect sure i got nothing let's do it so i went and i actually got um you know like a volunteer job to be in the media department which was only me and then the

person who was running it right so who was that person his name was uh his name is not what his name is steven steven adler steven adler okay and he was not the guy from guns and roses definitely not that i that i know for sure it's definitely not that guy and um yeah so i interned there and sure enough right after year one um the exact thing that i thought maybe could happen happen and i just joined so i didn't even no interviews no nothing it's every department with the phantoms joined the Blue Jays. So if you're a ticket guy for the phantoms, you're a ticket guy for the Blue Jays. If you're a corporate guy for this year, you know, so that's how we all came in.

I was the media guy. So I went into the media department. No questions asked. It was kind of like Rob would be, he said to, you know, Jay, Jay Sandhouse, who's, who's ran the department for us. He'd say, look, you got this guy and you got this other guy. It wasn't Steven Allard time. It was another guy, Will Hill took over in second year with the phantoms. He's like, you, this guy and you got this other guy. It wasn't Steven Adler at the time. It was another guy, Will Hill, who took over in the second year with the Phantoms. He's like, this is who you got. They're joining.

They're going to help. We're going to do both, Blue Jays and Phantoms, and we're going to work together, and this is how it's going to be. And if it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out. But this is who you got. And this was my dream, really. At 25 years old, I was like, just, I don't even know what to, I wasn't ready for any of it.

I wasn't ready for it. It just, it was beyond me. Like, the amount of what that really means. What does it mean to work for, you know, Toronto Blue Jays, the sports team? I always took it for granted, even to the bitter end. I took it for granted. All right, let's talk about the bitter end for a moment here. I never told you what I did there, but, mean yeah okay i'm in the media department what is it

basically okay so if i'm uh if i cover baseball for the toronto star let's say yeah like would i go through you to get access to players and stuff or maybe not me because i was never um let's say senior enough let's say say. But you could. You could. Definitely. You were very much like, yeah, the middle man, the middle person. Like would Bob Elliott know your name? Yeah, yeah. Exactly.

Stuff like that. So my main job was to, throughout the years, was to make the media aware of how the team's doing on the field. They call them game notes, media guides, whatever. That was my thing. I also, you know, try to help set up interviews with, you know, pre-game, post-game. I go on the road trips here and there.

Okay. You know, the point person, I guess, you know, when you want to call it that. And you work with the media, so you have to be, like, the best thing I got from the 15 years was how do you deal with people? And you got to deal with all different kinds of people. You deal with the players, they're one way. You can deal with the media, they're another way.

You got to deal with the front office, they're another way. So, and within all those things, each of those people are different in that group, right? And everyone, which is good, but you got to learn how to deal with them. It's not them. They don't need to change. You need to figure it out how to deal with them. You need to adapt. That's your job.

They're unique. Yeah. You know, you're the media relations person. You got to figure it out. Could deal with it. You need to adapt to their unique. You're the media relations person. You've got to figure it out. Could you shout out just so, I mean, I did my awful Bob Elliott. I was going to do a Dave Perkins too, but my Dave Perkins ends up sounding like my Bob Elliott. I don't know why.

I only have that one gravelly voice or whatever. Can you shout out some of the media professionals that you would be, would have dealt with over the 15 years? Like, could you do this? Yeah. I mean, it's everyone you,

you know, it's everyone you, you know, it's everyone you follow. That's the thing about baseball. Not much changes. Right. And who,

who, what I came in with at the beginning, more often than not, there's, there was something, you know, there were some changes here and there. But they're the ones to the end, really. Nobody goes anywhere. Because you're doing a, quotation, job.

You're supposed to enjoy your job. And what can't you enjoy, right? It's baseball for a living. Yeah. No, I mean. I didn't enjoy it at the end. Spoiler alert, I didn't enjoy it then, so I lost that. So now just to get the timelines right,

like what year was it when you got your services are no longer required, Mr. Grossman? 2017. So it was on my wife's birthday. It was hilarious. On your wife's birthday? I can laugh about it now. Yeah. I remember.

So that day, so we knew, before we went in, we knew that something was coming. We just knew. So I went into work, and it was, you never want to, that's the deal you make when you get into a corporate situation. Those days are going to come, you know. And you walk in the building, and there's that, like, thickness, and, like, it's just an off.

I wouldn't wish down on anybody. Could you smell it coming? You a hundred percent. I didn't know what me, I just, you just knew something was coming. And just to get the timelines right. Like this is the,

uh, so Mark Shapiro is the president. Yeah. Okay. So, so this, so he took over like for real in 2016, that was his first season.

2017 was the second thing. So it was, it was after the second season. Okay um you know so yeah so i got let go our um myself mal romanin very well respected media person in the industry um sue malabon also very um respected she'd been with the blue jays since like the 80s. So she was around for all of it. So we were, the three of us were let go. And then, so it's like noon, I think. It was like noon, 1230.

So I, Jennifer, my wife's like, what are you doing here? Come on. Well, it's your birthday. So I figured I'd, no, I got fired. You know, I laugh about it now. I mean, even then it was like, you know, I lost that passion. Like I lost it. So they were just basically doing, I looked at it then,

it's like they were doing me a favor in a sense. Like I needed to go and like figure out what I want to do with my life. Right. And like do something else. I still stayed in sports, as you know. But what? What am I going to do? I felt like I wasn't contributing enough to what I was doing.

I wasn't growing. As soon as you stop doing that, you've got to look at something else. And you said earlier that you took it for granted because it's really all you knew, right? It's all new. You were 15 years. I mean, you're probably younger than I am. I took the whole thing for granted.

I really did. And then, yeah, so 15 years with the Toronto Blue Jays. Like, you're not with, like, a double-A team here. This is real deals. When you have only one thing in Canada of it, there's only one me in Canada at that time. And so if I leave, like, if I just quit, okay, say, okay, I'm done, I'm going to do something else.

Yeah. You will get, before the job's posted, you will get a million people that are going to want your job, like right away because there's only one. If you want to work for Major League Baseball and you're Canadian, Canadian citizen, you live in Canada, well, that's it. That's it. And the guy in charge of that right now is former uh toronto star writer uh richard

griffin yeah so you worked with him on the other side so funny yeah yeah yeah i've spent a lot of time with rich um i had a i i really again i took everything for granted i i don't know what else to say like everyone was so people i worked with were really good really nice people the media they were they were people look at sometimes media can be like this but to me none of them were assholes they were all to me to my to only speak for me um for me i had a really great uh experience with them all and it actually helped me for my next job being able to, to, that was,

I think that's the most important part of the whole thing, dealing with the people, dealing with personalities. Okay. So now that we've kind of, uh, we've talked about, you know,

what you're doing with Wolfpack and what you did with, um, the Toronto Blue Jays for 15 years. I'm just going to, uh, turn the channel a little bit before we get to the real talk. Yeah. Here,

I got a song for this. Happy birthday. Happy birthday, baby, oh. I love you so. Sixteen candles. Eric, I'm going to get all emotional here. So maybe that's the... I don't blame you.

The octopus wants to fight. So you've got a four-year-old girl, as I do. Yeah. But today, July 29th, 2020, I have a 16-year-old daughter. So my sweet, beautiful, smart... She is just the nicest person. Michelle is 16 years old today and she's working right now

because because she's awesome and she's working and then I can't wait to see her tonight and I just want to say happy birthday to my honestly

that's what gets a guy I have two boys yeah whatever the dudes whatever but it's it's my daughters that get me like uh it's something it's just totally different like my four-year-old is anyway i i'm i'm just no good at it's something else it's an experience it's something else isn't it it is something else

like and then you look at your life and you've got the four-year-old and six-year-old and uh at some point in my life that's what i had a four-year-old and six-year-old. And at some point in my life, that's what I had, a four-year-old and a six-year-old, James and Michelle. And it really is, you realize, like, everything you do, like, it's everything you do. Your whole entire, like, core purpose is to make your children independent, self-sufficient, good citizens of this world.

Like, that is everything. And that's, like, that's everything. Everything else could just go away tomorrow but like if i can succeed as a father with my four children like i will consider that my life was completely yeah successful yeah like and everything else can just evaporate yeah that's gotta be the main focus right that's gotta be it it's everything man it's everything so can't wait to hug my Michelle tonight

and I love my I love my Michelle and she's 16 years old and I thought I should that's awesome commemorate the moment

here absolutely absolutely how are you and your family doing? I was hearing earlier today that Ontario no not Ontario

but Toronto was going to enter phase three. And I feel personally, before I hit your reaction, I feel like we're doing okay in phase two. Like we can just, we'll stay in phase two in this household and let the rest of you go to phase three. But how are you guys doing? I'm the same. I'm exactly the same. It's like, you know, it's getting real again, isn't it? Like, you know, we don't really it's not that we don't care it's we listen it's just we're not we haven't ever let the government would ever decide how we're going to do things right we just go with our gut feel like what we're comfortable with it's different it might be different than or it might be different than somebody else's that's just the way we're

comfortable with doing things. Right. So it's great. That means things, well, if they're doing that, that's great because we want this to go away for sure. Yeah, but there's a, and again, I feel, for example, Palma Pasta. Palma Pasta took a very hard, very serious economic hit. And they lost the in-store lunch crowd, for example, every single day. There was an economic hit.

Lots of people feeling it. Lots of different companies. The Wolfpack are feeling it. It's all over the place. But so there's this balance between health and safety and economics. And so I see that this will help the palm of postures of the world, that they're opening up. I guess now, starting Friday night or whatever for Saturday,

you can now legally like have people in your, in Palma's kitchen enjoying their lasagna as opposed to kicking them out to the picnic tables that are outside. But like, yeah, like personally, I mean, I i would do a patio i've done a patio have you done a patio yet no no my wife won't my wife hasn't done a patio either but i had uh i just never like for me i was never that wasn't that important to me to begin with right honest with you i wasn't i'm not i enjoy going with my friends but not enough right not enough for me you'll uh you'll wait okay so there's no chance you're going to be, like, in a restaurant anytime soon. Zero, zero.

Again, our kids are better when they're not in a restaurant. So we love the food from a restaurant. Yeah, you'll get takeout. Yeah, for sure. So just go do that when you're at home, you know. And let me ask, so, like, obviously now there's indoors public space. You need to wear a mask. It's a bylaw in the city.

But, I mean, that was a law in our family well before it was a law for toronto like we had a like if i go to into no frills i had to wear a mask and i happily did so because it makes sense if i'm inside it's a no-brainer i don't need i me i don't need anyone to to tell me that i i'm doing that regardless of what you say or think because that's where i'm i feel the most comfortable with that. Um, and you have a responsibility, right? It's, it's not always you,

it's the other person. And, you know, I have to do everyone, myself included. We've got to do a better job of thinking of that other person, not just ourselves. Well said,

Eric. I got to preach. I got to practice what I preach because I'm not perfect at it. And, you know, but you gotta, you gotta at least try. Yeah.

It's all about, yeah, it gotta be, you gotta just try. You gotta citizen of this world. Yeah. Uh, you know, but you gotta, you gotta at least try. Yeah. It's all about, yeah, gotta be a good citizen of this world. Yeah. Don't, don't be an asshole. Don't be an asshole. Let's make those t-shirts.

Yeah, sure. So you got a family of four there. I, uh, would recommend to you and to the listeners that they buy tickets for pumpkins after dark. Now, like you gotta go to pumpkins after dark.com because these tickets will sell out.

And this is a drive through event in 2020. So you pick your day and your time slot and then they scan your ticket through the window. So it's completely contactless. It couldn't be safer. And then there's this great driving route and they got bigger, what do you call it? Jack-o'-lantern sculptures and 7,000

pumpkins. And they're more impressive than ever. There's a 40 foot tall tower. So if you're going to go to Pumpkins After Dark and you should to give the kids like a, give them a Halloween experience because who knows what the real, the other Halloween will look like this year with COVID-19. So go to pumpkinsafterdark.com and use the promo code Toronto Mike. You'll save 10%. Let them know that you heard about it on Toronto Mike. It's good for everybody. So do that. And then while you're doing that, go to garbageday.com slash Toronto Mike and get the Garbage Day curbside collection notifications. It's free. It's fun. It makes you a good FOTM. If you're looking to buy and or sell in the next six months,

I can't imagine a wiser decision than contacting Austin Keitner of the Keitner Group. Text Toronto Mike to 59559. Talk to Austin. He's a great guy and he's honest and he knows his stuff. And he'll talk to you about opportunities for buying and or selling. And I want to let everybody out there know who has a small or medium-sized business or is in charge of the IT that you can outsource your IT department to CDN Technologies at 905-542-9759. And Eric, we alluded earlier to the fact you actually listen to Toronto Mic'd. So what's a good place to start? Maybe blow some

sunshine up my rear end, if you don't mind. But do you have some favorite episodes before we talk about the Donovan Bennett, Gervia Bailey episode? Well, that one to me is the one that hit me the most. Like, stayed with me, affected me. Let's call it that. Yeah. You know, that was the one that affected me the most. The one that, you know, I enjoyed the one with Bob Elliott and Dave Perkins.

Oh, yeah. Just because, like, I just, yeah, I'm a sucker for, like, those stories. You know, like, where else are you going to hear that? Is that Jesse Barfield story about his car? Because Mrs. Barfield denies it. So we had some communication. So there's some discrepancy. Yeah, I don't know.

Yeah. I like that one. Yeah. And there's other discrepancies. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. I like that one. Yeah. And there's other ones. Scott MacArthur one was good too. Scotty Mac. So he'd be a guy you'd know from your. Yeah.

Yeah. You know, and. You know, Scotty Mac was good friends with Austin Keitner. I just mentioned Austin from the Keitner group. Austin Keitner's brother was really good friends with Scotty Mac, like back in grade school. Yeah. I remember that one near the end where he was like imitating a wrestler or something.

Was it Macho Man? I don't, it might have been, but it really scared, it like scared me. Because I was like, oh my God, who is this guy? Oh yeah. Yeah. He was like, he almost did it too well, where it was like, you must be practicing that at home or something. front of the mirror oh my god you're bringing me back good memories of uh because macho man was one of those was probably the wrestler that was most fun to

imitate you know but you know you also do your your hulk hogan you got to call everybody brother yeah coming at you brother but uh were you a wwf fan when i was a kid. Yeah, me too. And that was it. You grew out of it. Like a regular, well-adjusted human being. Yeah, very quick. Yeah. Yeah, Scotty Mac was great. You know, I want to do like a part two to the Scotty Mac episode. Yeah, like how are you feeling now?

Like how are things now when you look back? Because it was last year. And, yeah, like how is it going for you now that you're now that you're out and and like you're now telling everybody who you you know who you really are um how's that been like right and i hope all the answers would be like what you want to hear it's like it's so really it's such a relief i can finally be myself i can finally do you don't have to hide it i don't have to i can't imagine like i i don't know i i'm just guessing at this point but like that's what i would hope to hear if you did a part two yeah and especially like when he was sharing the fact that he would kind of you overcompensate to protect your secret so if there's a a busty

young woman walking by you might be like ogling her and you might say something sexist or misogynist. Oh, God. Just to like, you know, you're with the guys to say, yeah, I like chicks. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, right. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. Yeah. And the one that affected you the most is a recent episode. So this was an episode I did via zoom with Donovan Bennett from sports. I'm a big Donovan Bennett fan. I don't know how you can't be, I don't know how you can't, he gets it right.

I don't know how it's not just that, like, it's not just that he gets it. Like, you know, the amount of, he's the, he,

what can't he do? Like, what does he, what does he not do? Right. That's my, like when I tie my shoes in the morning, sometimes I think, what can't he do? Like, what does he, what does he not do? Right. That's my, like when I tie my shoes in the morning, sometimes I think that's an accomplishment,

right? Like, and it's, and he does like he, on all facets of, of the industry, he's basically hit them all. So like when he's,

he doesn't have time for a second career, but if he did, then he should teach a course. But that's a good question. He's so good at different things. Where should Donovan Bennett be in the Sportsnet world? I think where he is right now. So where is he right now?

Because he seems to do lots of things. I don't know. But what I do know is that he's beyond talented. And this is kind of like, this is why I came all this way. Oh, yeah, yeah. I'll shut up and let you. No, no, no. It's just like Donovan is the,

is a perfect example. So where are the other, where, where is everybody else? What? Like he, he can't be as great as he is. And I've already touched on, I've already done that.

There, there has to be more people of color who are just as good as him out there. But where are they? Cause they're not around. They're not there. And, and the, the thing that hit me the most from that episode with donovan and garvia after while i was listening to it i was like okay i'm 40 i've been in this industry for 18 years

41 years old why was this why was this my wake-up call today like what why did it hit me today not a year ago or two years before that three years before that or okay so details so you're listening like paint the picture for me like go for walks every night i listen to all these different podcasts yours of course no of course no i wouldn't be offended but that one was right away for me that was a right away one it was like would you consider like an emergency one because something i don't how what did it how did it happen was it d it Doug Ford or was it a politician that said, well, good thing that we got everything perfect here in Canada. It was something along those lines, like, thank God we're not the states.

Or like, it was, what was that quote? Okay, so George Floyd was murdered by police officers. And there was some politician, you're right, I don't know which one, but somebody who said, we don't have that problem here in toronto and that opened up the floodgates and then i saw a tweet so the origin story is a tweet from garvia bailey about i don't want to i'm going to paraphrase a bit but it was the how exhausted she was and because of what comes the the, the trauma, like think of that word for a moment, the trauma that comes from awaking every day as a black person in this city, okay?

Now you and I could never know what that's like, right? We awake every day as a white person in this city. And then I remember, I had this, like really this tweet from Garvia, who's been on the show, So she's been over here. So she's an FOTM and I'm a big fan of her work. I actually thought she should get the Matt Galloway job on Metro Morning. I think she's fantastic.

Absolutely. Yeah. And Garvia Bailey, I reached out to her and I said, look, here's the tweet. Apparently she did the same tweet a couple of months earlier and there was crickets or whatever but it's timing is everything i see this tweet and it really like you is i i carry this tweet like i'm like i don't i need to understand what that means like the trauma of based on because you wake up every morning with your skin the color of your skin of your skin and i i said would you be willing to like let's do something let's do a toronto mic episode via zoom because this is covid times you know i was only doing

zooms i didn't have a backyard thing and then i wanted another voice on it and i had just recently had donovan bennett on for the first time and i'm like that guy would be perfect like he's he's a black man and what a communicator and he adds that you know because where garvia comes from like a an arts background like you know be it jazz or just the arts and everything where then donovan brings the sports sure so like and then i started and i did invite a third person on so i was gonna have it was before and that person decided not to do it but uh yeah so that's that's how it happened and and i knew going into that episode with donovan bennett and if you haven't heard if you guys listening haven't heard donovan bennett

and garvia bailey on toronto mic please go back and listen like really because if it affected eric this much uh that it actually prompted this entire uh episode of toronto mic you need to give that a go so i basically basically, yeah, I basically, my intent going into the episode was to do a lot of listening. I wanted to understand, and they're both so articulate, but I wanted to understand what it is like being a black person in the city I was born and raised in. So. Yeah. Well, that's, I had a million things going on through my head. And I was just like, well, what this shouldn't I'm embarrassed to say that I should have been that shocked. Right. About what they've gone through and what are the things that are happening today. Like you just sleepwalk through life.

You just sleepwalk through life when I do something. I'm like, if she's saying it, it's true, right? It has to be true. But you need to like, I couldn't really put my finger on it. I knew it's true. I just, I needed some kind of something to really like make that stick. And then when I, that's all I thought about after was like, you do sleepwalk through life. And then I'm like, well, hold on. Is it that simple? Or is there more to it? So I was thinking about it nonstop, hence the not sleeping

part. I'm thinking about, thinking about, thinking about, I'm like, oh, you just never bothered to pay attention. You just, you didn't, I didn't bother to give it anything, to give it any, anything. Right. I wish I had thought of it even and like this is you know i you know like is this thing going on why is there only why is morgan campbell the only black um journalist i've seen in 18 and 15 years covering the blue day like just for a second just for a second and we had we've had enough conversations like we kill time like it's nobody's business in baseball sometimes we go hours and we will have all these i'll talk to morgan just you know surface stuff you know but i never ever gave it a thought i think that's that's the problem i think

that's the problem i just you gotta get it you gotta turn on that switch in your head that that beam that says look for it it's there and and and like pay attention right it sounds like i need someone to tell you just pay pay attention. You finally, uh, and again, I think a lot of us are doing this, but you, you finally kind of check,

checked your privilege like that, that you sort of like, like you mentioned, you took your 15 years working for the Toronto blue Jays for granted. Like, like, cause it was not effortless, but no,

it's not effortless, but I know what you're saying. Yeah. And then, uh, so, you know, you wake up every day as a white man and you go about your day and you don't take that moment to like sort of acknowledge almost. Like you almost have to just acknowledge that, you know, doors are opening for me and cops are not carting me and things are not, like I'm not getting pulled over for driving.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And acknowledging that it would be different for you if you were born a black man. Yeah. There's no other way. There's a hundred percent. And the get it, you know, just talking about the field I was in, it gets back to that point I was making about Donovan was Morgan. Morgan Campbell is a fantastic writer.

We all know that. Like, if you read his stuff, you know he's great. But where are all the other – he can't be the only one. We live in a country with a whole bunch of people, and we live in Toronto, multicultural city, 6 million people. Are you telling me that every – I'm just going to use baseball as a game – that every Blue Jay fan is white? No.

At some point, you've got to represent the city or the community that you're in. You just going to use baseball as a game. Sure. That every Blue Jay fan is white. No. Yeah. You got to represent, at some point, you got to represent the city or the community that you're in. Like, you just have to. Otherwise, you're just, you're fooling a lot of, well, that's the thing. Those are the signs. This is why I'm here. Like, these are the signs. I didn't pick up.

I'm embarrassed to say it, to be honest. I really am. But, like, I'm a better late, I don't want to say better late than never and just, like, wipe that whole thing out. But, like, the things that, like, for example, say better late than never and just like wipe that whole thing out. But like, but like the things that like, for example, a better late than never is like,

you know, the Washington Redskins thing, you know, better late than never, you know, I don't call, I don't care what you call that team. You can call it, I think they're calling it the Washington football team.

Yeah. If you give me the option of the two, I'm taking, even if that sounds weird, I'm taking that one every day of the week. Yeah. Agreed. Agreed.

Great. It's been a long time coming. Yeah, and let's follow it. Everyone's got to do something here, right? Right. Now, okay, so as you share, basically, and honestly, I often say this because I use the hashtag Real Talk. And what exactly does that mean? Basically, this is a safe space.

So I'm really just pleased that you're gonna share your experiences with us and i know it's it's probably uh i would say take some courage like it's probably easier just to like to not air i don't know we play on park wife but we played uh uh what's uh elvis's daughter's name is uh what's elvis's daughter's name's elvis priscilla Presley and Elvis she covered I should know this right dirty laundry but anyway I should know these names these are

famous people but I'm in a different mode right now but so are you going to start by talking about your experience are you going to open with a Wolfpack experience or a Toronto Blue Jays experience where are you going to open with a wolf pack experience or a toronto blue jays experience like where do you want to begin so yeah i can do the the blue jays thing is pretty straightforward i just because here's something that i i know now sure it's lisa marie presley though that would ruin my whole i wouldn't be able to focus on what you're saying that's what

it is yeah please continue here's what i here's what i know now it doesn't always have to be and maybe it's not a dust up like like an argument where you see someone a person of color who's arguing with a white person and you can see that they're actually angry or they're upset and it's like well what happened well this person called me that or this person said that or whatever it it's not gonna hit you in the face like that. It's going to be subtle things. It could be, or it could be that, God forbid, but it's going to be subtle things that you have to have those blindfolds on. Like you need to be paying attention that I missed.

I don't even say probably. I definitely missed when I was with the Blue Jays. Now, the Wolfpack thing is a lot more specific. We had an incident. We had some big incident. Our owner, David, David Argyle, last year, this was in April, we played a team, the Wolfpack played a team called Swinton. I think they're Swinton Lions, I think they're.

And following the game, everyone's in the beer garden having a good time um well they were and then so David went up I guess was talking to that player or he was in another conversation went then talked to the other player and he shook his hand and said hey great game today you know blah blah blah and he goes oh I didn't realize they allowed black people in Swinton like that's what that was that's what he said I didn't realize they allowed black people in Swinton. Like that's what he said. I didn't realize black people were allowed in Swinton, which is a small town in the north of England. And that upset him.

I learned all this after, but that really upset the player, like really made him feel uncomfortable as how can it not, right? So he was very upset. I guess David didn't really give it much more to that he kind of just said it and then that and then that was it so the player did everything he was supposed to do he felt so upset and and like ashamed whatever those feelings are and he told the rfl right the league about it and they literally did nothing so like you know you know that saying like if someone said well the least i can do right the least i can do you know i i don't even say

that to like come here and doing this like it's not the least i can do right least i can do is talk to toronto life about this no that's doing actually doing something the least they did was literally nothing the rfl took that, and they did nothing with it. So a week goes by, another week goes by, another week goes by, another week goes by. Five weeks later, the player goes on social media, and he posts, I'm very disappointed with David Argyle, the Toronto Wolfpack owner.

This is what happened. This is what he said to me. I got no apology from him. I got nothing from the league. I got this, that, and so he's feeling like, why is nobody doing anything about this? Right? And. And that's the first time, that's the first time I would have heard about it. When I saw that social post, I being the lead, being the director of PR, this is on me now. Right. So I'm like, huh, this is, this is not good. So the first thing I did,

right. The first thing I did was called, it was called David and, um, our VP, right. And a couple other people. So I called him right away and said, look, I said, this is just me and David talking. I said, David, have you seen what's going on on social media right now? He goes, no, why, what? And I said, okay, this is what it is.

This is what the player is saying. Did you say that to him in the beer garden after the game? Did you say that? And right away, he didn't even like give me some excuse or be like, or say like, well, I had been, you know, I had a couple of drinks. I was trying to be folksy, like fun, you know, and he didn't. Right away, he goes, yes. Just that he said, yes, I did.

I said, okay, well, he's going on social media, you know, saying what happened. I want to hear it from you because you have to, you got to hear why or what, or you have to, right. You got to know everything before you do anything. You got to know all that. You got to know all the facts. Right.

So, so he told me, yes, yes, I did. So I said, okay, right. Here's what we're going to do. Right. We're going to, we have to come out. We got to, we got to come out and apologize. I'm like, why am I hearing about this five weeks later? But that's, so you start scrambling this is the problem you always perfect world which

is not you always want to be prepared when you're when you're a pr person because it gives you time to figure things out so that one i'm just like you got to go out there you you got to go out you got to apologize right now this is bad this is really really bad like i i shouldn't tell you that i think you know you'll see the reactions um on media you don't need to see them you know it's bad you just told me how horrible you right away you knew see the reactions on media. You don't need to see them. You know it's bad. You just told me how horrible it is. Right away, you knew. This was five weeks ago, and you can tell me right away

that you knew exactly what you said at the exact moment. So, yeah, we went out and did our whole thing. And what you do at that point is you look around for the Black Lives Matters. You look around who's coming out with statements. Teams have a social responsibility to their fans, to people who are watching them to do these things, right? That's just the first step.

What's going to come. The first step is the statement. Everyone has to be social. Every company has to be socially responsible and you got to say, but it, it can't just, okay, good.

Now let's move on. It's gotta be, what's the second step to that, right? And our second step was he stepped down. That was the second step. Wow. He stepped down, yeah.

But my point is to that, I can't tell you how many people said to me, why, just for saying that? Why, just for saying that? Why, just for saying that? It's no big deal. Like, it's a joke. Yeah, because he didn't say, it was a joke.

Yeah, quotation. It was a joke, he said to the guy. Not funny. Yeah. And. If I may, like. Yeah, of course you. say it was a joke. Yeah, quotation. It was a joke. He said the guy's not funny. Yeah. And. If I may. Yeah, of course. Beyond like, okay.

So that's a, you know, no pun intended, a grossly inappropriate and awkward joke. Yeah. Particularly to make to somebody who's not like your best bud or whatever. Doesn't know him. Never met him. First introduction. So strange. Never met him. First introduction. So strange. Yeah, absolutely.

It's not strange if you know David as far as him always trying to be the outgoing, party, fun guy, you know, whatever you want to call that. Like outgoing, very personable, doesn't matter who you are, loves to chat, loves to talk with you.

It's just, you're not, you just, you can't be so so like that i don't even know what the word is i don't know what the word is irresponsible number one right and especially if you're the owner of the team you got to set your you have to be of the highest standard when you're when you're dealing you're the example you're going to be setting for the rest of the people that work for you so i don't care who you are if you're the owner uh an intern a volunteer director me whoever says that you're out I don't even there's not even a for me

there's no strike two once you know the fact like you get this is what you did okay we just can't we can't have you represent our you can't it's funny because I had at a wolfpack matches I heard conversations about what

happened to the but I didn't actually know the story that's at Wolfpack matches, I heard conversations about what happened to the, but I didn't actually know the story. That's really it in a nutshell. He stepped down and you know, from that role of CEO and chairman, so it's like, well, yeah, because when you're a sports team, you have

partners and when you partner with someone you align your your you align with them in all values because you're sticking your name on them. And I don't want my name on something like that, right? So there's got to be a second move. What are you going to do about it?

You come out with your statement, sorry, sorry, sorry. Of course you're sorry. But we get the sorry. We get the thing. But what's part two? That's the one. That's the action, not the like that that's what i saw like let's take the like the nfl is a perfect example right like you know how i said like every company when when something horrible happens like

with the when the black light when george floyd when things happen like that you gotta you gotta act you gotta act you gotta be part of the community you gotta you gotta do something You've got to act. You've got to act. You've got to be part of the community. You've got to do something. But the NFL, for the LU's, the NFL's going to be, if I were them, I would have sat that one out.

If I'm the commissioner, sit this one out. You've already said what you needed to say, but you did it before all this with Kaepernick. Now, if I was a PR guy, like let's say I happen to be working and I had some kind of say of something like some I you know I could offer my idea right I would have been like okay if you're you sit this one out because you you're just foolish at this point but if you're going to say it if you're going to do that that whole thing right follow with and I give you my word you have my assurance that Colin Kaffner is going to be playing in the NFL this year right otherwise. Otherwise, otherwise don't do it. It's hypocritical.

Yeah. It's very hypocritical. There has to be a part two. Okay. Or part three, part four, part five, part six.

Like, right. You know, no one's doing it better than the Raptors. No one's doing it. Otherwise it's just a platitude. It's just platitude. Right.

You know, and, and it's, uh, yeah, you got it. That has to be it. If you're going to play and that you have to be like,

okay. And to show you what I mean, that I'm being serious. Colin Kaepernick will be in the NFL playing. It's, he has to be it. If you're going to play and that you have to be like, okay. And to show you what I mean, that I'm being serious. Colin Kaepernick will be in the NFL playing. It's he has to be. Now, uh, David Argyle,

that's the name, right? So the fact, so he decided he would, uh, he would resign. Okay. Yeah.

He resigned from those positions. Well, there's a, uh, I mean, there, there is a, what I call,

uh, like, like there's a ramification to the action. There's a consequence. Well, there's a, I mean, there is what I call, like, there's a ramification to the action. There's a consequence. Yeah, that's right. That's a good way to say it. Yeah, so there was a, so he was racist in his remark, which, it's a bad joke.

Yeah, but it is what you said. Right. It's racist in his remark, and then... Just connotations, that's enough. And then when he, is it that he became aware It is what you said. Right. It's racist in his remark. Just connotations. That's enough. And then when he, is it that he became aware of how uncomfortable these remarks would make

a black player in this league that he decided he would step down as to not be a distraction? He embarrassed himself. He embarrassed the team. He embarrassed him saying He embarrassed the team. He embarrassed him saying this. Not me.

He embarrassed him. He says, I got to get out. Like this, I was so wrong. Being the owner of the team, I have to be held responsible for this. Because I think he even made sure we put it in the release. It's like, you know, if anyone else had done this, I would have told, I would have removed them. So why is it different for me? Right.

And that's, that was his way of, that was. Practically, practically, practically honorable, right? Like the fact that it's almost, I don't want you to use that word because it's, it's his own doing. Yeah. But the fact that he. I appreciate it. I don't know about honorable, but I appreciate, like, I own doing. Yeah. But the fact that he- I appreciate it. I know I'm vulnerable, but I appreciate, like I respect that. Right.

But it wasn't, it was everyone, the thing that shook me a little was everyone kept saying, he's stepping down for that, for that, for that. Like I heard it like 10 times

and I'm like, then I'm like 100% yeah, but then I'm like, am I? Like too many people are saying that to me so I second guess myself just for a split second.

Just for a split second I second guess myself. I'm like, before just for a split second. I second guess myself. I'm like, before then I started thinking about it again. I'm like, right. No, no,

no, no. Yeah, exactly right. No, exactly. That's the right thing. And you're right.

We, we, we as white men, uh, that even that whole idea, like, is that, is that racist enough?

Like as if there's some kind of like a bar or something like that's not quite racist enough. Yeah. Like that, that in itself is sort of part of the, the people often refer to the uh the systemic racism of the destructor right right and that's part of it that we like no you get a bit more racist before you lose your job like that's just a little race yeah we need a little bit yeah a little bit more yeah please it's like you know um so can I ask you about media coverage? Sure.

Since this would be your expertise. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Like, now, pardon my ignorance. It's okay. So does this get like a Canadian press write-up by Neil Davidson? Like, where does this end up in the Canadian media, this coverage of this? Like, the whole idea that his title was president? Owner, chairman, and CEO, everything.

The face of the team. Okay, but he didn't, he stayed owner. He just. Yeah, he stays owner because he funds the team. But he stays owner, but out of the limelight. So no more front person doing all the interview thing. That's what the new person is going to do. And the new person only came in because of that. is the new person so it was bob bob hunter who oh i saw

him yeah so bob hunter had been with mlsc he for years like he was um he helped a lot with the venues like he was like leading the the development of the venues like like the ACC, the Hershey Center. Yeah, I remember digging into him. BMO. He was big on the BMO, converting it from soccer to CFL. Yeah. Yeah, they share it with the Ergos. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. If you want, you can move the swing boom arm closer to you

if you want to be able to lean back. That's a nice thing. No, it's okay. I'm actually, like, again, like, remember we were talking before about being outside with the bees and all that stuff? I'm the worst when it comes to that. Oh, because there are some insects. I'm sitting like this is my comfort.

I look uncomfortable. This is the most comfortable position for me because I'm uncomfortable. Right. We did have a great chat before I pressed record. So Eric shares a trait with my wife in that you guys react poorly to, you react badly to insects. I've completely ruined my kids on that too because every time they see a wasp or a bee, they run like I do. So it's like, great. Starting early in our starting early my four-year-old freaks out we eat on this yeah deck i did it i completely did it to them that was all me i can take full credit for that

yeah great they wake up of a great fear but you know i think it's a healthy fear of wasps they're ass i had a bad experience wasps are and i haven't recovered yeah right yeah yeah but they are like my daughter will a house fly, my daughter will, a housefly will, my daughter will get upset over a housefly. Oh, I'm okay with those. I'm like, Morgan, chill out. This housefly is fine. It's not going to bother you.

But the wasps, I have zero tolerance policy of these wasps. No, I'm not a, that they, right. Not a fan. Not a fan. Did you, I'm sure you followed this in the media, but Hal Johnson came out. So from Joanne and Hal in the participation, and he talked about,

and I, and because I host Hebsey on, co-host Hebsey on Sports with Mark Hebbshire, I have a little more perspective on this. So Hal Johnson basically said that TSN told him they didn't, they couldn't add him to the roster because they had a black man. Well, then that answers my question. Why you encountered so few people of color?

That just basically says we got one. We've already got one. We're good. Thank you. Morgan's a great writer. Donovan's amazing at what he does. There has to be more. There's too many people

there's too many there has to be more who who wanted to be in their life to be what they're doing no i'm with you and for years i've been on this if you will in the sense like so i'm thinking of now of uh bubba o'neill for example who is at chch in hamilton and he came in and he talked about what john saunders the late great john saunders who had to leave this market like and he was a sportscaster at city tv and he left to become a pretty big star in the u.s right and john saunders told bubba this is bubba's story but um you got to work 10 times as hard to make it as a black man in canadian sports media and then i picked that up again so i had kayla gray on and we we continue the conversation

i was like i don't even know what to say she's like man anyway sorry i interrupted no no i'm she's something like she i like to point out i was a kayla fan i can't get enough from way back uh yeah yeah absolutely uh she came on like if you're gonna learn anything no she's very good you might want you want to watch her i agree i. I agree 100%. And then I had Scott Moore on, you know, who is responsible for hiring at Sportsnet for years and others like Shirely Najak, who produces Hockey Night in Canada. He was on and Sofia Yurstukovic,

who is, you know, had her own, you know, she was told like sort of like just shut up and read the tweets or something because you're no Elliot Friedman. Like this is the kind of stuff she was told by people she was working with. So now she's not a person of color, but she's, but, but,

but it, it sort of speaks to, and I've been on this for a long time, the lack of diversity in Canadian sports media. Yeah. That's a, look, I've said it twice.

Like, that's why I'm here. It's like, um, it's, I never gave it any thought. I don't know how else to say it. I honestly thought just being nice to everybody, just being really respectful to everybody and listening to hip-hop, I did my job.

I'm good. So you listened to It Takes a Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back? Yeah, I checked all the box. I'm doing my part here. No, no. And so, you know, yeah. So that's where we're at. Okay, so Blue Jays, though.

Yeah, why isn't there? You'd be most, like if we, and now I'm just, like my brain is now just thinking of how, I mean, yeah, Sportsnet has Hazel May, who is a woman of color, I mean, yes, Sportsnet has Hazel May, who is a woman of color, of Filipino descent, like my wife, and Arashma Danny is a person of color.

Not a black man necessarily, but a person of color. And they are pretty visible front and center when it comes to a Sportsnet broadcast. But you're right. If you look at all of them, now I would struggle to point to another person covering. You know, I mean, there's a woman. I mean, Laura Armstrong covers Blue Jay Baseball now for the Toronto Star.

Yeah, I love Laura. I know. I just booked her on Humble and Fred because I produce that show. I said, don't tell Keegan Matheson. He might get jealous. I put Keegan on my show. Yeah, yeah.

No, it's just like, again, it's just the 15 years with the Jays and then two years with the Wolfpack. So it's 17, you know, almost 18 years. It's the journalist, right? It's like the no person of color journalist. You can't tell me that it's just one in 15 years like i'm sorry if i miss like i'm really trying hard to remember if i'm there's more out there but if i really have to think that hard that's the like that's the other thing like i i wish i didn't have to think so was it just morgan was there other and

like i i really don't think they're. And that's in like, yeah. That's a great question. I know I've had Sunil Joss. Like in front of the camera, I could name you some more in front of the camera. I can. Like Hazel, she's awesome. And Arash is like, and they're so like,

they're really great at their jobs too. Like they're really like. Oh yeah, they're both great. They're so like, you know what it is with them? Like they're so prepared at their jobs too. Like they're, they're really like, Oh yeah, they're both great. They're so like, you know what it is with them? Like, like they're so prepared all the time. I know they sound like,

well, they should be like, there's not, there's no rule. But Danny lost a ton of weight. Did you notice this? I haven't seen him. I heard like,

I actually haven't seen him standing up. Like, I don't know, but like, um, I don't know. I don't know. Truro Arash.

That's what I call him. Cause I'm Toronto Mike. He's Truro Arash, which is hard to say. That would be hard.'t even try but like again the the great person part comes out too and i think they go hand in hand like great really well prepared but they're great people they they really are like the for me the standard of what they should be those those they're the standard they that's what you want now morgan Morgan Campbell, of course, uh, left the Toronto star, uh, months ago now. Uh, but he did, he does have a new job with CBC.

I don't exactly know the specifics. As far as I understand, it's like, I could be getting this wrong, but like he's, um, a sports contributor to CBC sports. Cause they've, CBC sports is actually, um, it's great that they've come up with another sports outlet that you can go to so it's not just like

one-sided, two-sided all the time. Like, add another thing, like the athletic is awesome and like, and then you can add CBC. Just,

the more different thing, the more different platforms you have for the sports, the better, right? Oh, I agree. I actually was thinking about

for the NHL coverage, right? Like, just this, just this, yesterday I was chatting with Lance Hornby, like having a chat with Lance Hornby and I was thinking about for the NHL coverage, right? Like just this, just this more opportunity. Yesterday I was chatting with Lance Hornby, like having a chat with Lance Hornby. And I was thinking of how,

like it's good that the Sun still has that core group of journalists because you're right with the NHL particularly, like, you know, I think Zeisberger will be there and NHL.com guys. And that's fine and Danny, but that's not journalism, right? That's, they work for the league. And then if you're a partner like Sportsnet, and I'm not here to suggest, this is always so tricky, but the fact is that Sportsnet journalists,

there is a sort of an underlying, you know, you're less likely to cover CTE stuff with NHL probably if you're a Sportsnet journalist than somebody who's not with the sports net. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I know.

I know. So I just think it's, it's, and again, the sun guys, uh, to a T the sun guys are all white guys though. Like that,

this is a least diverse sports department I can think of, but they're all great writers, but they've, a lot of them have been there a long time. Speaking of hip hop, Ryan Walstad's a hip hop head. That was a good one. He's like the lone yeah youngin

as young as he is yeah in the toronto sun roster there but so what is what is it simply that um it's sort of a chicken and egg i don't know you won't have this answer but is it because because there's a lack of representation in the field it's not pursued or is it like the pool of prospective journalists that are drawn from is extremely male and white because that's all that's ever been seen on

those are my questions that's my question are they shout out to David Amber too who does a great job on Hking and Cannon. Again, he's awesome. Like, he's awesome, right? I see, thankfully, good.

Like, I'm seeing, like, you see more on camera, it seems to me. I'm talking specifically about, like, and again, again, you see it, but what's going on behind the scenes? like I think that's like like when that when that quote came out with um um whether it was Doug Ford or it was another politician that came out with that that thing that said no but we're we're good here and Canada's good right and then that opened the floodgate with all these people coming out on social media I read every single one that I that I saw that I could find and they're sharing their experiences what goes on behind what's going on behind there like you know like David Amber does just using him as an example because you write up yeah he does a fantastic experiences what goes on behind what's going on behind there like you know like david amber does just using him as an example because you write up yeah he does a fantastic job well he's an fotm

that's why i brought yeah he does a fantastic job he actually lives in my neighborhood oddly enough it's weird i've seen i've never met him i've never introduced i've never been introduced to him i've never met him and when i see him i don't bother and i don't look like hey my name is but like i always kind of want to because because like want to because I really like his work and everything. Yeah, he's good. But like he looks cool and calm, but who knows what's going on inside there. Right. And you said it's got to be 15 times harder than if I were to try and do it.

Right. Like, for example. So could you, Eric, could you, because uh yeah you just told that great story from the wolf pack but let's talk about the blue jays just for a moment could you share a little bit more about for example uh like like what it was like to be you know working for the blue jays when the great cito gaston oh thank you yeah yeah yeah okay so again and then you need to tell me what happened with uh the bomba cowan cito thereito. There's some, I wasn't around. I wasn't around for that.

You must've heard it. I was a kid. Like, thank God. Like I can actually say at one time that I was younger. Everything was like, I feel so old these days. So it's nice to bring it back to when I was like,

I'm old at the news. Yeah. How do you think? Is that hair? I'm looking at your beard. It's very white. Yeah. But the hair,

that's two years working at the Wolfpack. I can imagine. Yeah. But the hair is holding onto that pig at the wolf pack i can imagine yeah but the hair is holding on to that pigmentation uh yeah yeah like i i haven't been able to say that since i was like 24 years old or something yeah i'll just i'll take that um and you're not balding like that looks like oh no i well are you maybe i have to look at the back yeah okay i'll check it out later but yeah i had good days i had a good run i had a good run i think it was for two years I had a really good run I was actually somewhat okay I was like okay

had I known I would really try to do my but that's not your personality and that's not your personality so with CETO again I took everything for granted,

right? That like everyone gets to talk to Cito Gassman, right? Like everyone gets to be around, around someone like that. So it was, I think it was 2008, I want to say. He had just taken over for, for John Gibbons. And he was basically like, who better, what better manager is there to come in to a situation and just get like, be calm, like just bring a calmness to it. Right. Like a sense of it's cool. Like everything's going to be fine. Like, you know, we'll figure it out kind of thing. That's what we needed. And he's a perfect guy. So like I was, you know, I was on a road trip. I was, I think we were in Texas and um I think you can tell I didn't go I don't go on many road trips I'd go on like maybe two a year three or something

like that and I think it was my first one with him all right and you need to have that relationship with the manager when you're on when you're a PR guy because you got to know what's going on at all times you got to have you got to have a little bit conversation like what's take a temperature of the room like what's happening today what do I need to know and don't know whatever right so um and i was like be honest i was um like you have a little anxiety when you're doing because like i'm not in charge on a daily basis but today i like this for these eight ten days or whatever the road trip is i am so like i'm responsible for a lot of stuff here so there was anxiety you know not most comfortable the more you do something more comfortable you are and he said i think he like i don't think i know he sensed that for me. So he went, he sat with me on

the bus and he didn't have to do any, trust me, he's got a million things to worry about. I would figure I'd be the last on the list, but he, um, he came on the, on the bus and he was just talking to me, just like shooting the shit, just random. And he didn't have to do that. And, um, so we were taught. So that was, I really appreciate that. do that and um so we were taught so that was i really appreciate that really appreciate it so we were having a talk one day i think it was a rain delay or something and and we were having a talk in his office and he was just telling me a little bit about how he grew like how he grew up when he started in the baseball in the baseball game and what that was like for him just the horror of of like hearing it and like then you start thinking it's like okay like i'd be i'd

have been out i would have been out okay forget this isn't for me see you later folks like you know i can't like so the baseball part of it him being the manager of a major league baseball team kind of then like quickly goes away like it becomes like the second thing like the second cool like not cool the second like important thing about him at that point and then he tells you the story and you're like how did you even get how did you do this how are you even able to like and it goes to that jackie back to the jackie robinson thing there's no like people people think like sports like myself when i was younger that they're heroes like these baseball players athletes are heroes.

No, no. But every now and then, every now and then you get one. Colin Kaepernick, like you get one. Right, Muhammad Ali, you're right. Sure, he wrote the book on being, you know, and like being an actual hero, right? So you do, like every now and then. So Cito was like, when I heard, like, and he told me everything,

I knew a little bit. I had read, like, it wasn't complete. I wasn't like, whoa, like, wow, I didn't know. Like, I knew, but when you hear it firsthand, it was completely different. And you just get this new respect. And then if you remember at the time, I think his last year with us was in 2000. I want to say 10, if I'm getting this right.

11, 12. Yeah, I think it was 10. And then at that time, Major League Baseball was trying to, well, they were saying they were trying to do better at hiring minorities to be in higher positions, like being managers of teams. Right. And what they would do is so every time a position opened with another team, they would always interview a black manager or Latino manager or something like that. Right.

And I remember Cito used to get all these different interviews, but then maybe it was two or three or four. And he just stopped because he was like, okay, they're me here they're wasting my time to fill the quota to fill the quota that was his take and that was his his take on it because if i'm going if i'm if i'm like really looking at this thing okay you know like when there's a movie role it's made for a movie role is made for a specific actor actress actress. Right. They make it so that like, oh, this actress or this actor is going to play. I'm making this movie. I'm Martin Scorsese.

I'm making this movie strictly to show this person's attributes or whatever. And the perfect place for Cedar to have gone after was that team that has those veterans. Right. Like we're close. We have the, but there's so much shit going on around here. Right. There's just so much shit, but we have the talent. We have the veterans.

We have the. He's a players manager. He's a players manager, and there's no one better to step in. And like that, like Joe Torre was kind of like that. Like that guy who's like, just, he's perfect around it. Don't ask him to manage a, you know, a small budget, you know, a small payroll team has got to, you know, do this and do that and change 20 lineups every day and pull this guy out

here and scratch and claw there. You don't, that's not, you always, you have to make sure you get the right people always in the right spots. And Cito is the ideal manager for that team that's needs to go that one step they're almost there they just need that one step forward they need to clear the shit clear the shit out see what people what i realized after was a great manager or coach everyone call it it's not what you it's not always not always what you see on the field right right it's before and after the amount of fires you got to put out the amount of people you got to deal with all this shit before you even start the game that's enough for that

would have been enough for me just for that day alone i'd be like okay i'm done oh and now i have a game now i gotta win a ball game right um so yeah so that that's what i say just just again i took you you think about things after you're gone from there and you're like wow i really wish i would have known how lucky i was to be doing that that's life i mean so you're in your early 40s now yeah and like if you know cross your fingers if everything works out you're not even you're not even halfway done you know what i mean like so the fact that you're kind of like you're awake and you're sort of like you're to use a term here you're woke to this and aware now and checking your white privilege and starting to to like parse everything differently like from a different angle at 40 early 40s you

you uh you know think of all these years ahead of you where you'll look you'll look at everything through this new lens you know look I'm not I'm going to tell you something that's personal but like I'm not even for a second comparing myself to anybody because like I have if I didn't have this I would literally have zero idea

like I mean zero idea of what a person of color has to go through on a daily basis of not wanting to not thinking you can be yourself. And that is uncomfortable. You have to like blend in with the rest, you know? So when I was in college,

so I'm Jewish, right? So when I was in college, I went from, I was, I went from being in a high school here in Toronto, in Thornhill, where I grew up in Vaughan,

from Vaughan high school, there has, there was 2,200 students, every kind of cultural, any, every race you can possibly imagine. It was there. That's, that was my comfort zone. Right. So when I went, when I went to Durham college in Oshawa, I left this thing here and I went and I went there, didn't know anybody, didn't go with any of my friends, didn't know a single person. And I like having like a lot of people I want to have, hang out with people. I want to have friends. I want

to find a group that I had here. So I eventually did. I found some people, I want to have, hang out with people. I want to have friends. I want to find a group that I had here. So I eventually did. I found some people that I was hanging out with and they're from smaller towns. It's just, it's not what I, it's not what I grew up with and it's not what they grew up with. They're from less diverse populations. That's right. There you go. More homogenized.

Yeah. Yeah. So we're a Jewish person. There's not going to be that many Jewish people where they're from. Okay. Nothing okay nothing wrong with that and i don't need that i don't need the person to be jewish to hang i just like i just want to hang out with people that are like kind of like i can drive with i don't really care what it doesn't matter to me so that's what i that's what it was and we had been hanging out for a while but there was one day there was one time where it was like it was something we were watching on TV and they made a really bad like Jewish, it wasn't even a joke.

It was like, oh, it was like just like a remark. Let's call it a remark. Okay. That was meant to kind of get a laugh. I think that was the point. I think I even, I was so beyond uncomfortable, like beyond uncomfortable that I think I even laughed at it. Is this like a stereotype yeah okay oh big time okay yeah thank you yeah yeah yeah big time stereotype which again

i get i get like it's not like i'm not naive to think like like i get like i entered it just it's it's it cut through me like i've never and i've heard that maybe that same thing told differently or maybe i'm around my own friends it's it not the same as that, what I got there. So I had a split decision. What do I do? Do I tell them, oh, hey, that was really hurtful because I am actually Jewish? Or do I not be like that awkward guy and just keep it to myself, suck it up? Because I don't want to lose them.

I actually like them. I don't want to lose my friends. We're cool. Like we're all, we're cool. We like the same things we're doing. You know, I'm like, well, you know, you just, it won't happen again. Like it's fine. And it didn't happen again. But every time after that, I felt like from that moment on, I always, I was like not living a lot. Yeah. Maybe living a lie, but like, but like, I don't want to like be so dramatic here, but like, I, like I was like, not living a lie. Yeah, maybe living a lie, but like, I don't want to be so dramatic here, but like I was watching myself on how I act and like how I talk and like how I do. So like if, so because I didn't know if it was ever going to come up again, and it didn't.

It never stood a thing again. But like, but I always, it was always there for me. So it was never, it was never comfortable again. Right. But I still hung out with him. I still did all those things. And, um,

yeah. Well, if I didn't have that, I'd literally have zero. Well, to even remotely. No, but I mean,

I mean, I'm sure that in terms of quantity of, uh, bigotry. Yeah. Anti-Semitism is number one. Yeah. Like that's what my,

uh, I, I, you know, I mentioned I produce Humble and Fred and Humble says that there's more anti-Semitic i you know i mentioned i produce humble and fred and humble says that there's more anti-semitic yeah you know hate in than than than anything so i will share quickly that when i talked to hal johnson uh who didn't get that job at tsn yeah because he was a black man and they had a black man uh mark hebbs here on hebsey on Sports opened up about a similar story at the same era of TSN where he basically didn't get a job

because Michael Landsberg was there. So it's very similar to the Hal Johnson story. They had a Jewish guy on the roster. And how long ago was that, the Hal Johnson thing? When would that have been? I feel like that's… Just give me a ballpark ballpark it for me like the answer is i don't i don't care if you get it i'm trying to make a point i don't know 90s i think sure okay well are we any different today and we were right well that's that's the problem right and like that's the thing like i

didn't need you to actually give me the okay i was just trying to make a point i was trying to remember when like how far how far has it come how far has it come since then i don't know look i i don't i don't i don't have the answers i want to i want to know the answers i want to find out and i want to like talk to like what doesn't have to be like sure when this thing happened i could have if i wanted to i could have gone into my roll decks of people i know and contacted all the people of color that I know at that time when things and be like hey do you want to do this hey do you want to talk about that but I'm like you know this isn't a fad for me this isn't a hot topic like a trending thing for me right right so like the point why I'm coming here while we're why you and I are talking about this is because I

don't want this to go I don't want any of this to go away we want COVID to go away so this is the exact opposite of COVID we want COVID to go away yes but we don't want the conversation to go away because the biggest problem is if it does and not enough people like you and i are talking about it because ultimately it's going to come down to us trying to fix this because they've already people of color have been trying to do this forever well i heard from donovan donovan's like uh his responsibility right it's not it's not just he's like step up and say something. So that's, I have somehow through some, somehow I have a,

yeah, I have a channel. I have a following and I have a broad, you know, that, that we can, we can amplify these and you and I, uh,

can have these conversations on Toronto Mike. Yeah. You know, so, yeah, but I do, in addition to, you know,

you've been very talking about how you can only, you can only imagine that like you were there for 15 years of the blue Jays. You can only recall one black beat reporter or journalist in all those years that you can recall one, one, which is kind of amazing. Yeah. Kind of amazing.

But let's, if I may just, uh, can we talk about gender inequality? Like, uh, yeah. And you touched on it with laura and like

again you got to like if you think for a second we're just talking about sport for this particular one we're talking about sports because this is where i came from right right um sports is loved by everybody we don't we all know that right that's not a big secret so you how do you rep you got to represent that somehow. How do you represent that? So it's everything. It's literally, that parade the Raptors had after they won, please. Like you can see it there. Like they're the prime example, like they're a perfect example of what it's supposed to be.

You're dead on, right. And that's how your offices should look. That's how your staff should look. It should be the exact same. Well, part of the problem is that the staff is small now. Every outlet's got one guy they throw on the basketball beat. I'm glad we see more, it has to be, more women involved for sure. So here's one thing that I never really understood.

And I'm not saying this to be like to be like a an instigator or anything like that i don't have any bad will to anybody but like when i was when i was with the jays um i don't know if it's changed now possibly could have um the the clubhouse if you were a female employee of the team not a not a media person and a female employee um you weren't allowed to go in the clubhouse um now the clubhouse isn't a place you go to hang it's not a hangout spot it's not a coffee shop it's not it's not a movie theater you know it's a place that if you're not a player if you're not part of the actual like the the coach or coaching staff playing staff um it's not your place right but it is if you have work to do in

there and it involves being in there right so if i have a job to do and and and i need to go into the clubhouse to get a player coach a thing or or wait around for someone because they've told me to wait there or something along those lines. Yeah, you need to get in there. So it's like I never understood. There was never a reason given. It was there before. It was like that when I got there. So it's not like it happened.

At least if it happened when I was there, I would at least know why. No one really answered that question. Why? So if I hire – So a man covering the Jays could go in there. Working. Oh, okay. No, working.

I thought you were talking about media. No, not media at all. Media people are definitely allowed. My bad. No, I'm talking about staff. And is that because the players could be naked? Well, no, because Jennifer Quinn, the head PR for Raptors, and there's been others.

Like, you know, there's been female. Oh, that is curious. That's not it. That's part of the thing. Like, but it's up to the person to be responsible. Let's use a woman in this case. She's got to be professional.

Everyone's professional. Like, you would hope there's a code when you get a job. You've got to be professional. Right. But part of being a professional means i have to do my work and if my work involves me having to go in the club i was like i'll give you an example yeah so like um the head of our um our marketing person was a female our community relations person was female our jays care foundation person was female um so if she needed something like so the players come out they warm up they hit and, and then they go back into the thing. If they had a group of kids

or a group of something or whatever, needed something signed or whatever, they can't go in there and get the player to come out, so they'd ask one of us. And again, I don't mind doing it. Like, I don't mind, like, sure, it's not, like, that big of a deal, but, like, just go.

It's like, you're not going to hang, you're not hanging out, you're not having a party in there. Just go and ask them, and they'll come out. Why do I need to, like, it's not just you go, it's like, you're not going to hang. You're not hanging out. You're not having a party in there. Just go and ask them and they'll come out. Why do I need to, like if you have a purpose and your purpose is to get in and you do your job and then you get out, why does it matter? Like I never, I never, I never understood that. And I hope, I don't even know if the, if Mark, even like the new regime even know that. I don't even think it's like, they may or may not. I don't know. You'd if Mark even like the new regime even know that I don't even think

it's like they may or may not I don't know you'd have to like ask them I guess and I don't maybe it's changed since then I haven't been in touch I don't like I'm not interested in like what and what the Jays are doing these days like from a like employee thing kind of because I've kind of left that behind yeah like but those things I am interested like i wonder i have still wondered to this day like if that's actually i could probably just ask somebody but i i haven't i'm uh i'm grateful that you uh made the trip here to new toronto and uh came back here to talk about all this because it's just just an interesting perspective that you've had for whatever these 18 years or whatever and you, you talked about what you witnessed, the racism you witnessed at Wolfpack and then just, you know, what your observations as a, uh, an employee of the

Toronto Blue Jays for all those years. My last question for you is, uh, if you were, uh, born and raised, if you were from Cleveland, do you think you'd still have a job with the Toronto Blue Jays today? It would certainly help. It would certainly help it would certainly help but like you know here's the thing yeah okay here's the thing yeah um yeah it would i had to ask that question but it's a it's a fair question it is like there's nothing wrong with asking like it would certainly help but like i didn't want like if if i'll make it simple for you yeah if mark said to me before i was let go and said eric we're gonna keep you but everything's gonna be the exact same as it is your situation is gonna be the exact same everything's gonna be the exact same

you're welcome to stay if you'd like or i can give you a whatever the paint you know like the your salad whatever you get like i would have taken that deal in a heartbeat to take that deal I wouldn't stick around I think before I go here I think like the main thing is like I think we should really try doesn't have to be journalists

of color to talk like to write about this stuff I think like I think white journalists can do this I think that we can they can do more I think we can we can we can all do more and then they can write more about these issues because i again it's you can't stop i don't last thing you want for this thing to kind of like windle down and be like all the ceos and all these companies who have say in hiring power be like okay we're done here is this is this over can i can we just kind of go back to like the thing we were doing before it was working for me right it's working for us um like is this

still a thing like like the more we write like the more white people get involved in and write about these things like people have actual now it's not always them they have editors they have they have bosses so if maybe it's not just the journals maybe it's it's a bigger it's always a bigger picture a bigger broader thing but like that's where the the um change will be made it's there it's the people who have the influence to to call things the way they want to call them call them equally call them better dig like really figured this thing out because we we need to i need to understand we need to all understand you can't see it you don't if you don't if you can't see if you don't understand you can't see it right and that's that's basically what I came all this way for.

It wasn't just the beer. It wasn't just the beer. It wasn't just the beer. It was also the lasagna. Oh, right. I can't forget about the lasagna for sure. No, that's good. Thank you, Mike.

No, thank you, Eric, with a K. Grossman 1S. Just to be difficult on both ends there. But no, thanks for doing this, buddy. And again, you've been in the basement TMDS studio, although you didn't get on the mic. And here you are in the beautiful backyard studio, technically making your Toronto mic debut today.

How did it feel? How do you think? I think it went really well. I mean, I don't know. How do you think? That was my worry. You're talking about some real talk. Real talk, right? I was my worry. You're talking about some real talk.

I was going to risk myself sounding like an idiot just so I can come and do this. It was definitely worth it for me. Are you kidding me? It would have been literally effortless for you to just never say anything. But to talk about these things, I think that's huge. And I applaud you. I applaud you for doing that. Thank you for having me on and letting me do this. And that

that brings us to the end of our 696th show. You can follow me on Twitter. I'm at Toronto Mike. Eric, we've got to increase your Twitter follower count.

You flipped it, right? You're at Grossman Eric And again Grossman1S and Eric with a K That's right So follow Eric on Twitter Well maybe if you tweeted more you don't tweet that much I don't maybe I will Maybe this is the start of something beautiful

I just like gathering information that's my thing We'll share that information Our friends at Great Lakes Brewery are at Great Lakes Beer. Palma Pasta, they're at Palma Pasta. Sticker U is at Sticker U. The Keitner Group are at The Keitner Group. CDN Technologies are at CDN Technologies. Pumpkins After Dark are at Pumpkins Dark. And Garbage Day are at GarbageDay.com slash Toronto Mike. See you all next week. This podcast has been produced by TMDS and accelerated by Roam Phone.

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